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B12-How i see it.

Gianni

Moderator
Hello:)

I bet just about everyone of you was or is deficient in Vitamin B-12. While it is commonly paired that Crohn's and Vitamin B12 deficiencies go hand in hand, I'm not quite sure.

Being Vegan, I am constantly told by, doctors, family members, friends, concerned citizens, vigilantes, etc etc that going vegan isn't healthy and natural because you cannot get b12 from a vegan diet.

I SAY... wait a minute...

A common (all too common) misconception is that b12 is just naturally made inside of animals and eating animal based foods is the only natural way to get this vitamin.

... ... well if it just naturally appears in animals, then humans would never ever have a b12 deficiency problem. We are animals right?... right..? ....right......?!

The truth is b12 is created by bacteria. This bacteria back in the day (1,000-200,000+ years ago) was in everything!!! It was in the water primal humans drank, the ground they walked on, the soil they ate from, the animals they hunted. IT was everywhere!! So naturally the human genome got accustomed to such a high volume of this vitamin and developed great benefits from it.

But then comes the Industrial Revolution... then the model T... Then Starbucks starts popping up on every street corner. Anyways, we get advanced and we change our systems of agriculture drastically. We started sterilizing soil, and giving it very artificial fertilizers. Well many of the natural organisms that used to thrive in natural soils died out.

A cool experiment is to watch an earth worm in natural organic soil move around and then put artificial fertilizer around it and literally watch the earth worm go 0-60 in 5 minutes (pretty fast) to get the hell out of the artificial stuff.

So anyways as you can imagine like any normal niche ecosystem, once you have certain organisms leave or die out from the new soil the balance is broken and other natural organisms also die out.

That is what is happening now and b12 is becoming extinct in modern cultures. Vegans aren't more prone to b12 deficiencies just like people with crohn's aren't more prone to b12 deficiencies ....Everyone is deficient in b12... everyone.

The pigs, and the cows, and the chickens are all eating grain and grass from commercial agriculture (the dead soil). So not much b12 is going to be found in animal products either. (not to even mention the vast amount of antibiotics these animals are kept on their whole lives that would surely kill the bacteria responsible for b12)

Vegans are only thought to be deficient because the first thing a doctor does when he or she learns you are a vegan is order a b12 blood test! And of course if you are sick with a chronic condition, you are regularly getting blood tests and your deficiencies will come to light.

I actually bet that Vegans are less deficient in b12 than the average joe because so many companies are concerned about the b12 problem that soy milks and nut milks are often fortified in b12 :)... oh irony! :)

So pat yourselves on the back crohnies! Because you are aware of your b12 deficiency and you are taking necessary steps to get those numbers up :)

Having said all this, I do think that b12 is extremely important and should be supplemented, I just wanted to share what i thought about b12 and b12 deficiencies. Don't read this and run out in your backyard and throw a fistful of soil in your mouth.

Knowledge is power

Gianni

P.s. Please note that i do realize some crohnies are more susceptible to vitamin deficiencies because of acute inflammation. I was more referring to Crohn's as a whole and comparing to the average population
 
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Very interesting indeed. I myself am not vegan, but I have a couple friends who are. There are certain vegis that are high in B12 I believe. You do not have to eat meat to be healthy. A lot of doctors do not like special diets for some odd reason. I have even noticed this. I have been gluten free for over 6 years now( But I do NOT have celiacs disease). I remember on gastro doc I had seen in the past told me I should not be on a gluten free diet, that it is unhealthy. I of course am extremely knowledgeable about the GF diet, I did tons of research on it and what foods are healthy with this diet. I explained to him how I was eating and that I was getting good nutrition. He would not listen to me. I even told him it is possible for people to have gluten sensitivities and not be able to eat gluten. He disagreed with me saying that only people with legit celiacs are unable to eat gluten. Unbelievable! He really got annoyed when I told him that most people with type O blood are sensitive to gluten.

Oh well, I say knowledge is power, and it is good to research things. Very interesting on the B12 Gianni!
 
i had the same theory as you do, im not sure what all the facts are though.

but one thing seems to be apparent, iron from meat seems to be superior to plant sources. I always benefit from b12 supplements too, it doesnt seem im getting enough from whatever my gut, theoretically may be making. again, im not aware of all the documented scientific facts are, but whther they documented it with advanced detection tools, i have to evaluate things within my own body, regardless of what is documented or not.

i have been evaluating this vegetarian issue for while too, another interesting thing is, in advanced cultures, that is, intellectually advanced, such as ancient greece where western science and philosophy began, they consumed seafoods high in iron, b12 and taurine, these foods all play a major role in brain function specifically mylelin, they regarded meat from land animals as inferior to foods like clams oysters and octopus. it seems human do very well on seafood and high meat diets. currenty, taurine is not considered essential, but it is only found in meats, and the body and brain seems to run better the more taurine you give it, so to me, we are smarter on meat. also, choline was just determined as a essential nutrient, or rather a vitamin, and the most practical way to fulfill that requirement, is by consuming meat.

i have a hard time digesting meat, so i eat little of it at the moment, but plan on consuming more from now on, some of my greatest experiances in energy and brain function have been associated with, large amounts of meat, liver or certain types of seafood like clams.

now i believe when it comes to whether it is meat or veggies that is a better diet for humans, it is neither, i believe meat may be first and foremost basis for our diets, and plant foods just make us even healthier. to say we need to choose between either one or the other, is a false dichotomy.
 

Gianni

Moderator
i had the same theory as you do, im not sure what all the facts are though.

but one thing seems to be apparent, iron from meat seems to be superior to plant sources. I always benefit from b12 supplements too, it doesnt seem im getting enough from whatever my gut, theoretically may be making. again, im not aware of all the documented scientific facts are, but whther they documented it with advanced detection tools, i have to evaluate things within my own body, regardless of what is documented or not.

i have been evaluating this vegetarian issue for while too, another interesting thing is, in advanced cultures, that is, intellectually advanced, such as ancient greece where western science and philosophy began, they consumed seafoods high in iron, b12 and taurine, these foods all play a major role in brain function specifically mylelin, they regarded meat from land animals as inferior to foods like clams oysters and octopus. it seems human do very well on seafood and high meat diets. currenty, taurine is not considered essential, but it is only found in meats, and the body and brain seems to run better the more taurine you give it, so to me, we are smarter on meat. also, choline was just determined as a essential nutrient, or rather a vitamin, and the most practical way to fulfill that requirement, is by consuming meat.

i have a hard time digesting meat, so i eat little of it at the moment, but plan on consuming more from now on, some of my greatest experiances in energy and brain function have been associated with, large amounts of meat, liver or certain types of seafood like clams.

now i believe when it comes to whether it is meat or veggies that is a better diet for humans, it is neither, i believe meat may be first and foremost basis for our diets, and plant foods just make us even healthier. to say we need to choose between either one or the other, is a false dichotomy.
Wildbill, i agree with alot of your points.

In a perfect world the best diet would be an omnivorous diet, but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. The way meat is handled in this world today is atrocious. Meat is now full of fat, hormones, antibiotics, harmful bacterias, and other chemicals. Cows are no longer running around for survival, they are standing in one place their whole lives so true lean meats really don't exist any longer. Meat today is vastly different from the meat our primal ancestors ate. Many of the nutrients, oils, proteins have all been stripped from the modern steak. I think because of this it is considerably healthier to eat a plant based diet.

Also this society has a skewed definition of the word omnivorous. People will defend meat and say that humans have always been omnivores, but today people are more like carnivores. Omnivores don't eat 80% meat and 20% white potatoes and complex carbs. Our ancestors ate more than likely 30%-50% meat and 50-70% vegetation.

But yes seafood continues to provide researchers with hopeful news in the area of nutrition and lean meats. Unfortunately though, the ocean is constantly being taken advantage of and abused so I fear such healthy meats won't be around for too much longer.

Also yes there is a good amount of evidence pointing towards meats being the reason why humans developed such intelligence. However, like i said, I don't believe today's meats provide the same benefits.

But yes, I don't think i will remain vegan for my whole life... I know if i do eat meat again it will be seafood only. I am fairly positive that i will never eat land animal meat again.

Gianni
 
gianni,

yes, the quality of our meat has declined and all seafood is contaminated with mercury now, only shellfish and small fish like sardines are somewhat acceptable, but i can still feel some goofy effects on my conciousness despite the fact the levels are low, the fact remains, there is not supposed to be ANY mercury in these animals.

the quality is also increasing in farmed animals, you can easily get antibiotic free meat now, grass fed is gaining in popularity as well, so there is some hope.

im afraid to eat the liver they have available, because of how these animals digestive systems have been destroyed by antibiotics, supposedly johnes disease in cows, which is almost exactly like crohns disease, is higher in dairy cows when compared to cows raised for beef only, possibly due to the high amounts of antibiotics they receive to avoid infected udders.

perhaps the only hope to be able to eat fish is to consume cilantro and garlic regulary to chelate the toxins you are inevitably going to consume.

brown rice is now contaminated with arsenic which is carcinogenic, you are right, all our food has some serious problems, its not limited to meat, but the meat might have the worse issues.
 

Gianni

Moderator
the quality is also increasing in farmed animals, you can easily get antibiotic free meat now, grass fed is gaining in popularity as well, so there is some hope.
Gmo grass fed, pesticide grass fed.. :(. But yes there is a small movement to make food in general healthier in the united states and small battles such as these are important. I just feel like the genomes of these cows have been tarnished and we won't see healthy cows until we see a couple generations of keeping cattle healthy, active, and happy. Unfortunately the extent of just avoiding antibiotics, and corn at this point really isn't healthy enough for these cows to start becoming genuinely healthy and strengthening their own genomes. Healthy Cows Healthy Meats Healthy Us.

Gianni
 

David

Co-Founder
Location
Naples, Florida
Very interesting indeed. I myself am not vegan, but I have a couple friends who are. There are certain vegis that are high in B12 I believe.
1. There are no veggies that are high in vitamin B12. In fact, there are no vegetables that contain vitamin B12. They may be tainted by manure or MAYBE some fermented vegetables contain B12, but the veggies themselves do not take it. A good vegetarian source: http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=807

2.
Gianni said:
people with crohn's aren't more prone to b12 deficiencies
People with Crohn's disease are absolutely positively 100% definitely more prone to B12 deficiency than those without it. The process by which vitamin B12 is separated from protein and then finally absorbed AND recycled is an extremely intricate process. And Crohn's Disease can interfere with every single one of those many steps.

3.
The truth is b12 is created by bacteria. This bacteria back in the day (1,000-200,000+ years ago) was in everything!!! It was in the water primal humans drank, the ground they walked on, the soil they ate from, the animals they hunted. IT was everywhere!! So naturally the human genome got accustomed to such a high volume of this vitamin and developed great benefits from it.

But then comes the Industrial Revolution... then the model T... Then Starbucks starts popping up on every street corner. Anyways, we get advanced and we change our systems of agriculture drastically. We started sterilizing soil, and giving it very artificial fertilizers. Well many of the natural organisms that used to thrive in natural soils died out.
You can probably blame this change on the fact we stopped pooping everywhere and using human feces as fertilizer more than starbucks.

However, I don't for a second think that we used to have extremely high levels of B12 in our system and I don't think everyone is deficient. The current RDA for vitamin B12 is 2.4mcg. 2.4 MICROGRAMS. You know that vitamin B12 pill so many take each day? It is probably 500-1000mcg. So you take your 500-1000mcg each day (of which there is no way a human intestine would produce this) and it is still almost impossible to get your serum level of vitamin B12 above 1000pg/ml because we excrete a tremendous amount of it because WE DON'T NEED THAT MUCH. The current western medicine range is around 200pg/ml to 900pg/ml for B12.

In addition, there is then something called enterohepatic circulation which causes us to recycle the majority of our utilized B12 (if we're healthy). It is extremely efficient. In addition, our liver can store up to 5 years worth of vitamin B12 in it when we are taking in sufficient amounts. Not only do we usually have plenty of B12, but we have plenty in the bank for those times that we don't get enough.

Now, with all of that said, there ARE many people who ARE deficient in vitamin B12. And the current range of western medicine is absolutely terrible. As this paper showcases, around 50% of people who have a serum level of 200-400pg/ml are in fact deficient based upon the gold standard of B12 deficiency: methylmalonic acid levels. And a hell of a lot of people with Crohn's Disease as well as elderly people fall within that range (or lower) and need to supplement. I personally recommend everyone strive to get above 500pg/ml and many people with Crohn's Disease will need B12 injections to do that.

In the end, it's critically important to get tested and if you are indeed deficient, supplement based upon that deficiency. Then get retested soon thereafter so that the dose and delivery mechanism can be optimized if necessary.

I do like the way you think (but wish you would back up your assertions with sources) and agree that many of our modern systems have led to decreased health. There's a reason I'm working to grow as much of my own food as possible :)
 

David

Co-Founder
Location
Naples, Florida
As long as we're throwing out theories, let me toss one out there. A bunch of hippies go over to india in the 60's to find themselves and practice yoga. When they're over there, they notice most of those indians are vegetarian or even vegan and think, "That is the way to practice ahimsa and be healthy" and they start doing the same. Only problem is, the bodies of those indians had evolved over thousands of years for that specific diet. Those indians DO have the microflora needed for very little uptake of B12 because they evolved over many many generations to be that way. Conversely, all those hippies were brought up on meat and potatoes and switching to a vegan diet may have been beneficial for some but unhealthy for others as the bodies/microflora of THEIR ancestors has evolved for a specific diet. Then when modern agriculture started getting super crazy and we all started eating every food from around the world instead of just what's local, things only got worse so now we have no idea what the hell to do.
 
2. People with Crohn's disease are absolutely positively 100% definitely more prone to B12 deficiency than those without it. The process by which vitamin B12 is separated from protein and then finally absorbed AND recycled is an extremely intricate process. And Crohn's Disease can interfere with every single one of those many steps.
i believe this may be correct. we can recycle cobalamin by reabsorbing it at the ILEUM, the exact area of pathology in crohn's disease, this is also where we reabsorb bile acids and recycle them as well. it is a process called enterohepatic circulation /recirculation. we release all these substances in our bile acids and some which come from our liver.

from what i recall magnesium is also absorbed at the ileum, but not recirculated, so crohns disease may be higher risk of magnesium deficiency, i find this true for myself, and take magnesium citrate, along with b12 supplements.
 
Actually you can get B12 in Nori seaweed as well a some types of spirulina which are in the vegi family. One of my friends is real big on juicing. She adds these vegis to her mix when she juices to get some added B12. True, you are not going to get as much b12 from these sources as you would a piece of meat though.

Also there is high B12 in eggs as well as cheese, but again most vegans will not eat cheese nor eggs. I guess the best bet for vegetarians would be to get it through supplements. My husband takes a b12 supplement by Pure encapsulations. They are the best when it comes to supplements in my opinion. They never add any type of fillers or preservatives to their supplements. They are 100% pure.

I use to take a b12 sublingually. It was a small pill that you put under your tongue and let it disslove. This was also suppose to be better than the shot even in terms of getting into your system and being absorbed.












1. There are no veggies that are high in vitamin B12. In fact, there are no vegetables that contain vitamin B12. They may be tainted by manure or MAYBE some fermented vegetables contain B12, but the veggies themselves do not take it. A good vegetarian source: http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=807
 

David

Co-Founder
Location
Naples, Florida
Actually you can get B12 in Nori seaweed as well a some types of spirulina which are in the vegi family. One of my friends is real big on juicing. She adds these vegis to her mix when she juices to get some added B12. True, you are not going to get as much b12 from these sources as you would a piece of meat though.
From the vegeratian society link I posted above:

Fermented products, such as tempeh and miso (obtained from fermented soya beans), shiitake mushrooms and algae (spirulina and nori) contain substances which are similar chemically to vitamin B12. However, as they do not work in the body in the same way as the active vitamin these foods cannot be relied upon as sources of vitamin B12.
 

Jennifer

Adminstrator
Staff member
Location
SLO
I use to take a b12 sublingually. It was a small pill that you put under your tongue and let it disslove. This was also suppose to be better than the shot even in terms of getting into your system and being absorbed.
I tried the pills that you put under your tongue after the regular pills that you swallow didn't increase my B12 at all. The ones you put under your tongue also did absolutely nothing. When I have the shot though my levels go over 1,000 (and you can see this result within a day or less there's no way ingesting that much B12 would raise your numbers that high as was pointed out that our bodies only take what they need (assuming its even being absorbed) and expel the rest). I've never heard of anything you ingest being better than the shot and certainly didn't experience that myself.
 

Gianni

Moderator
People with Crohn's disease are absolutely positively 100% definitely more prone to B12 deficiency than those without it. The process by which vitamin B12 is separated from protein and then finally absorbed AND recycled is an extremely intricate process. And Crohn's Disease can interfere with every single one of those many steps.
Yes, i suppose in different situations Crohn's victims would be more susceptible to b12 deficiencies but i don't think they directly correlate. I think, for example, that Vitamin D has much much much more to do with crohn's than does b12. I was merely pointing out that the shockingly low levels amongst crohn's patients isn't something unique as many normal healthy individuals also have the same numbers.

If you have a source explaining the process from which b12 is separated and absorbed and how crohn's interferes with it, I would love to read it.


You can probably blame this change on the fact we stopped pooping everywhere and using human feces as fertilizer more than starbucks.
I hope you didn't take the Starbucks comparison literally as I am not blaming Starbucks for the disappearance of b12. But if you were just pointing out, as was I, that Starbucks represented modernization then I would have to disagree.

The Bacteria had to get in our gut somehow in the first place so I don't think defecating everywhere would have made a significant difference. I believe modernization would absolutely be the main reason for the low levels of b12 found in the soils, water sources, and animals today. The artificial fertilizers and our relentless manner in which we tire out soil would definitely have a massive effect on the bacteria's ecosystem.


However, I don't for a second think that we used to have extremely high levels of B12 in our system and I don't think everyone is deficient. The current RDA for vitamin B12 is 2.4mcg. 2.4 MICROGRAMS.
I absolutely think we had high levels in our system in primal years. You must realize that these bacteria were literally everywhere. You might not think we absorbed that much or utlized that much but we had a constant supply of it. The bacteria grew a home inside our gut and regularly replenished our bodies with the Vitamin.

Water soluble vitamins pass through our systems quickly and our bodies only hold on to a small amount. It doesn't matter which vitamin as all water soluble vitamins act the same way. What is interesting though is that these type of vitamins are absorbed much much better when given in small doses regularly throughout the day. So you can imagine if your primal ancestors had these bacteria in there gut and it was in the water they drink, the soil they ate from, that they were getting regular doses.

As for the RDA.. that holds no weight for me personally as I don't trust their judgement or research. Not to say others shouldn't as-well. But I won't get into that unless questioned about it.

the key about your liver comment is when the liver is healthy... the average american's liver is no where near healthy. A toxic liver often doesn't perform its less important duties.

I do like the way you think (but wish you would back up your assertions with sources) and agree that many of our modern systems have led to decreased health. There's a reason I'm working to grow as much of my own food as possible
This was just a theory hints my "how i see it". I've researched my own but i cannot point you to one source. But that doesn't mean a theory is automatically discredited. Today people don't realize the importance of keeping an open mind, they need it to be on the front page of time magazine for it to hold any weight.

And yes I commend you for growing your own food :)

As long as we're throwing out theories, let me toss one out there. A bunch of hippies go over to india in the 60's to find themselves and practice yoga. When they're over there, they notice most of those indians are vegetarian or even vegan and think, "That is the way to practice ahimsa and be healthy" and they start doing the same. Only problem is, the bodies of those indians had evolved over thousands of years for that specific diet. Those indians DO have the microflora needed for very little uptake of B12 because they evolved over many many generations to be that way. Conversely, all those hippies were brought up on meat and potatoes and switching to a vegan diet may have been beneficial for some but unhealthy for others as the bodies/microflora of THEIR ancestors has evolved for a specific diet. Then when modern agriculture started getting super crazy and we all started eating every food from around the world instead of just what's local, things only got worse so now we have no idea what the hell to do.
Okay I think I get your point. Correct me if I am wrong but in essence you are saying that a vegan diet will not get you any b12 but the native people of India have developed microflora to maintain b12 because they have been vegan for so long.

I understand the line of thought but you must realize that this bacteria is all in the soil and because of this in the water as well. I'm sure these native people of India were still drinking water from unfiltered natural sources (as much of the country still does today). Furthermore while vegetables themselves won't have b12 IN them, they will have b12 producing bacteria ON them. The soil would remain on the vegetables as the native response is to not wash the vegetables, furthermore if they decided to wash the vegetables they would be washing them in a natural source of water. So I am not too sure if the people of India would have exactly developed their own way to get b12. What makes more sense is they were exposed to the bacteria more so than Americans even through a vegan lifestyle.

Furthermore many were actually vegetarians so they would have seen even more b12 from animal products.

Conversely, all those hippies were brought up on meat and potatoes and switching to a vegan diet may have been beneficial for some but unhealthy for others as the bodies/microflora of THEIR ancestors has evolved for a specific diet.
Brought up on meat and potatoes, not evolved so no I think it would have been much unhealthier to have sustained a meat and potato diet... MUCH unhealthier. I again here would go back to how b12 is found in soil and water and ON vegetables and it is only because of modernization and the systems of agriculture that it is no longer found in a vegan diet. (or any diet for that matter). Meat and potato's also would not have sustained much b12. Cattle now are fed antibiotics constantly, among other things and it creates an environment in which this bacteria could not possibly thrive in.

I am simply saying in my theory that humans are the perfect test for what other animals must be experiencing. There is a vast number of people deficient in b12... we are animals and we eat soooooo much better than the average cow, chicken, pig etc etc. I believe natural b12 is becoming endangered and I think EVERYONE should get b12 tested because I think most people are deficient.


As for the seaweed containing b12... there are arguments for it and against it... I have not a clue, but i'd rather just supplement than buy those expensive sea vegetables.

Having said all this, you bring up great points and maybe I shouldn't have yielded that crohn's patients aren't more likely to develop the deficiency as really we are more susceptible to just about every deficiency. Just wanted to express that it is not uncommon at all and to express that I don't think the deficiency is necessarily because of the actual disease.

Seeing you always post about b12, I knew I was gonna hear from you the second I posted this thread :)

Gianni
 

Jennifer

Adminstrator
Staff member
Location
SLO
I was merely pointing out that the shockingly low levels amongst crohn's patients isn't something unique as many normal healthy individuals also have the same numbers.
It really is unique though. Even if we did agree that just about everyone with or without IBD is low or deficient in B12 Crohn's patients are more likely to absorb less due to many factors such as chronic diarrhea, inflammation, scar tissue etc not to mention the possibility of having a resection.

http://www.crohnsforum.com/wiki/Vitamin-and-Mineral-Deficiencies
http://www.medicinenet.com/inflammatory_bowel_disease_intestinal_problems/page10.htm
 

Gianni

Moderator
It really is unique though. Even if we did agree that just about everyone with or without IBD is low or deficient in B12 Crohn's patients are more likely to absorb less due to many factors such as chronic diarrhea, inflammation, scar tissue etc not to mention the possibility of having a resection.

http://www.crohnsforum.com/wiki/Vitamin-and-Mineral-Deficiencies
http://www.medicinenet.com/inflammatory_bowel_disease_intestinal_problems/page10.htm
Yes I realize that, and I shouldn't have yielded that they were not more likely to attain such a deficiency as in reality we are susceptible to just about every deficiency. Just wanted to point out that i didn't believe crohn's necessarily caused the deficiency in the first place.

Also, in reference to your earlier post; I was told by my doctor that liquid sublingual b12 and b12 shots were the only way to attain actual b12. Not sure if it is entirely true as I have not researched it but thought I'd share.

For the record I supplement with a liquid sublingual b12.

Gianni
 
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David

Co-Founder
Location
Naples, Florida
Gianni said:
I was merely pointing out that the shockingly low levels amongst crohn's patients isn't something unique as many normal healthy individuals also have the same numbers.
Do you have any sources showcasing the low numbers in healthy people?

Gianni said:
If you have a source explaining the process from which b12 is separated and absorbed and how crohn's interferes with it, I would love to read it.
Wait, you don't have a source for me but you want one from me? :D

I've outlined the process here and listed 17 references to back up my assertions.

Gianni said:
I hope you didn't take the Starbucks comparison literally as I am not blaming Starbucks for the disappearance of b12.
Heheh, no, I wasn't. :D

Gianni said:
Water soluble vitamins pass through our systems quickly and our bodies only hold on to a small amount. It doesn't matter which vitamin as all water soluble vitamins act the same way.
If they all act the same way why does high levels of vitamin B6 lead to peripheral neuropathy?

Gianni said:
the key about your liver comment is when the liver is healthy... the average american's liver is no where near healthy. A toxic liver often doesn't perform its less important duties.
So you're saying our primal ancestor's livers stored 10 years of vitamin B12 rather than the 5 years we do now?

Gianni said:
Okay I think I get your point. Correct me if I am wrong but in essence you are saying that a vegan diet will not get you any b12 but the native people of India have developed microflora to maintain b12 because they have been vegan for so long.
Correct. I believe we evolved to symbiotically live in our environments. The vegans of India needed a higher amount of B12 bacteria in their intestinal flora because they didn't get B12 from animal products. Conversely, I doubt that nordic people of old had those bacteria in as high of numbers as they would get so much B12 from their diet of cod and other fish. Turn that nordic person into a vegan and I bet you see problems.

Gianni said:
I am simply saying in my theory that humans are the perfect test for what other animals must be experiencing. There is a vast number of people deficient in b12... we are animals and we eat soooooo much better than the average cow, chicken, pig etc etc. I believe natural b12 is becoming endangered and I think EVERYONE should get b12 tested because I think most people are deficient.
What level do you view as deficiency? What level do you think most people are below?

Gianni said:
Having said all this, you bring up great points and maybe I shouldn't have yielded that crohn's patients aren't more likely to develop the deficiency as really we are more susceptible to just about every deficiency. Just wanted to express that it is not uncommon at all and to express that I don't think the deficiency is necessarily because of the actual disease.

Seeing you always post about b12, I knew I was gonna hear from you the second I posted this thread :)
I actually think B12 deficiency is more widespread than we realize as well though Crohnies are near the worst. What REALLY upsets me is the countless people around the world who are diagnosed with depression or anxiety who are put on anti-depressant or anti-anxiety medications without ever being tested for vitamin D or B12 deficiency.

As I said, I like the way you think. I think you're wrong about a lot of things but I'm no doubt wrong about plenty as well. I just wish you'd start to utilize quality sources to backup as much of your assertions as you can. Not many people will take you seriously until you start to do that. Heck, I'm reading a book called, "Advanced Therapy in Inflammatory Bowel Disease" right now. It's by doctors for doctors. And every single article has a TON of references. Even though they're doctors, they realize it's important for them to back up what they're claiming. If doctors need to do that, then you and I need to x100 if we're going to have any chance of being taken seriously.
 

Gianni

Moderator
Wait, you don't have a source for me but you want one from me?
I was hoping no one noticed :shifty-t: :ylol:


Yeah this is basically just a theory of mine I wanted to test the waters with. It just makes sense to me. We automatically believe that animal products contain b12 just naturally yet we don't supply b12? Cattles are deficient in b12 for a number of reasons including the widespread use of antibiotics, the use of deficient crops, and the lack of cobalt in their diets. You can do a quick google search on b12 deficiencies and cattle for plenty of references for that.

So i just believe many people are eating these mainstream animal products and thinking they are receiving true b12. But often b12 is supplemented into the cows or other livestock.

If they all act the same way why does high levels of vitamin B6 lead to peripheral neuropathy?
I didn't mean that they literally all shared the same benefits and problems. Of course they don't. I was pointing out that water soluble vitamins acted the same way in absorption. Only a small amount is absorbed compared to the large amount that is usually consumed. And they all are better absorbed when given in intermintent doses throughout the day. For example you will absorb more b12 if you take 3 doses of 100 mcg, than you would if you took 1 dose of 1,000 mcg.

So you're saying our primal ancestor's livers stored 10 years of vitamin B12 rather than the 5 years we do now?
I'm saying we have a major liver issue in America and other modern nations. With the huge burden of having to keep up with the bombardment of soooo many toxins we encounter each day, the liver can't do everything. The liver won't be able to do it's full job if toxins are replacing the vitamins. It may sound weird but while toxins will literally incapacitate the liver, the toxins will also take up space. You can't fit nutrients and vitamins into healthy tissue if toxins are filling those spaces... nutrition 101. The liver also stores Vitamins A, D, E, C, K so the burdens keep piling on. The most overworked organ in the modern human body... the liver not the heart like most people think. Liver disease effects 30 million people in the U.S. Heart disease effects 13.2 million.

I am not saying that someone's liver isn't going to store vitamins for them, but rather am saying I'd rather not bank on a extremely overworked organ to always maintain the levels of Vitamins you really need.

Correct. I believe we evolved to symbiotically live in our environments. The vegans of India needed a higher amount of B12 bacteria in their intestinal flora because they didn't get B12 from animal products. Conversely, I doubt that nordic people of old had those bacteria in as high of numbers as they would get so much B12 from their diet of cod and other fish. Turn that nordic person into a vegan and I bet you see problems.
Sure we have evolved to live in our environments but not as quickly as I think you believe. I get your theory and it is quite possible but I think a much more likely explanation would be that these vegans were able to accumulate plenty of bacteria and b12 from the environment in which they lived. I mean if you simply think about it, Cows don't just spontaneously create b12 and yet they are vegans and naturally have extreme levels of the vitamin, yes they may demand more but it still shows they can attain the levels they need quite easily. Whether your eating and living like the cows, or eating the cows I think you are attaining perfectly healthy levels of the Vitamins and/or bacteria. (in those days)

I believe that the nordics were also able to create an environment in which b12 producing bacteria could thrive. I don't believe the vegan indians would have just evolved a way to attain b12 easier if there wasn't a b12 shortage in the first place... that is how evolution works. B12 was in everything so there was no reason why these vegans would ever be deficient. Bacteria was in the soil and soil was ON the vegetables, in the water and on the ground these vegans walked in.

I believe evolution for b12 started way before humans started eating big game meat such as cattle. B12 would have sustained our genome through our diets of plants and insects because of the soil and the water.

Fast forward to today b12, amongst other minerals and vitamins, aren't showing up in the soil. Its no secret, and im sure you agree with me on this, that modern soil doesn't have healthy levels of vitamins and minerals so why would it have healthy numbers of b12 producing bacteria.

What level do you view as deficiency? What level do you think most people are below?
Personally I view anything under 700 pg/ml as a deficiency. B12 overdose basically doesn't exist unless you take two shots at once. Also b12 is water soluble so anything your body doesn't store or use will be excreted so there is no risk of a longterm overdose effect. If your body holds on to the b12 then it probably needs it. If it gets to the point where your numbers are staying constant and not going up through optimal supplementation, then you are probably at the level you need. Based on common sense one can deduce if your body only takes the b12 it wants and excretes the rest, then giving it more and more won't harm it but will instead give the body the amount of b12 it really wants.

I believe most people are anywhere from 150-700 pg/ml. I believe 700 pg/ml is borderline deficient because people with 500 pg/ml will often experience the symptoms associated with b12 deficiencies. Also seeing as America has a chronic fatigue problem, hence the Starbucks:) on every corner (we have come full circle! :)) We are just masking our chronic fatigue with coffee while maybe we just have deficiencies in the b vitamins.

Personally I try and keep a pretty constant level of 1600-1800 pg/ml. Do I experience any related problems? No

This source mentions a study by Tufts University on widespread b12 defeciency. It should be noted that the 40% fell under the low range on the RDA's guidelines. You may trust the RDA but I along with many other RDA critics view those as deficiencies (not to even mention the "normal" 300+ pg/ml numbers).


I actually think B12 deficiency is more widespread than we realize as well though Crohnies are near the worst. What REALLY upsets me is the countless people around the world who are diagnosed with depression or anxiety who are put on anti-depressant or anti-anxiety medications without ever being tested for vitamin D or B12 deficiency.
That really upsets me as well. B Vitamins have been shown to GREATLY improve the mental stability and chemistry in those suffering with depression. B3 (Niacin) along with B12 both have been shown to have great therapeutic effect in that department as well as helping those suffering from addiction.


As I said, I like the way you think. I think you're wrong about a lot of things but I'm no doubt wrong about plenty as well. I just wish you'd start to utilize quality sources to backup as much of your assertions as you can. Not many people will take you seriously until you start to do that. Heck, I'm reading a book called, "Advanced Therapy in Inflammatory Bowel Disease" right now. It's by doctors for doctors. And every single article has a TON of references. Even though they're doctors, they realize it's important for them to back up what they're claiming. If doctors need to do that, then you and I need to x100 if we're going to have any chance of being taken seriously.
I guess we will have to chalk this up to yet another thing we disagree on (shocker). :ylol:
I simply didn't think this thread would draw much attention to be honest seeing as it doesn't deal with crohn's very directly. This was simply just an opinion thread, If i was making a wiki contribution, sure i would make sure I had plenty of sources to back up my claims. I've tried to research my theory a little, and haven't really found any substantial evidence backing it up nor have I found any disproving it. I mostly just use well known facts and try to fill in the blanks with what makes sense (at least to me). You can be precise and justify every claim you make with a detailed source but there is no fun in that. I am simply theorizing and think it is important not to always follow to medical, or social norm for that matter.

Ideas have to come from somewhere and if everyone just only referred back to cited references progress would be slow and painful. It is important to theorize, bounce it off other people, get opinions, and ultimately draw up a final theory... Isn't that (loosely) the scientific method? Doctors are not the only people whom have opinions.

If i just gave up on my theory when i couldn't find any substantial evidence supporting my claim, I wouldn't have completed my own idea... i would have let others think for me. Not every idea or discovery had references or merit backing them up, actually much of them didn't, but now many of those Ideas can be used as references for others. References dictate, ideas create.

After all the great philosophers never cited their sources yet they're teaching hold more true than anything and their discussions proved to be very useful. (not trying to make a comparison here:)) But yes I understand the importance to back up sources in a forum such as this, but i just wanted to theorize for a moment.

Gianni
 
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David

Co-Founder
Location
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Gianni said:
I guess we will have to chalk this up to yet another thing we disagree on (shocker). :ylol:
I simply didn't think this thread would draw much attention to be honest seeing as it doesn't deal with crohn's very directly. This was simply just an opinion thread, If i was making a wiki contribution, sure i would make sure I had plenty of sources to back up my claims. I've tried to research my theory a little, and haven't really found any substantial evidence backing it up nor have I found any disproving it. I mostly just use well known facts and try to fill in the blanks with what makes sense (at least to me). You can be precise and justify every claim you make with a detailed source but there is no fun in that. I am simply theorizing and think it is important not to always follow to medical, or social norm for that matter.
I think you misunderstand how to utilize sources. You utilize sources to prove those, "Well known facts" which very likely aren't as well known as you might think and then from there, you formulate your theory. Which do you think sounds better and might sway others?

1. So many people are deficient in magnesium and are eating poorly so that's likely what is causing ADHD in many so everyone should get their magnesium levels tested.

2. This paper from the Journal of the American College of Nutrition showcases that magnesium deficiency is often not diagnosed because the current lower end range is wrong. As magnesium is found in healthy foods such as spinach, bananas, almonds, and avocados, many kids these days on the "Standard American Diet" likely risk deficiency. Magnesium deficiency is shown to cause symptoms that mimic ADHD; I theorize that many kids are not actually ADHD but instead deficient in Magnesium and their level should be tested.

You're obviously a smart guy but so are all those doctors citing 44 references to back up their assertions. Without references, your posts are mere opinions and while interesting, if everyone here posted threads of mere opinions then the quality of this site would degrade. Create the foundation for your theories with well sourced facts and you'll be taking your writing to a whole new level and helping far more people. The idea of your intellect + proper utilization of sources has me excited. I hope you take my suggestions to heart.
 
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