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Crohns Disease, Cellular Attack

With Crohns, IBD, etc, the body's cells start attacking instead of functioning as normal... Right?...

My question is, what are the known ways to suppress those cells and/or temporarily rid those cells... ... either scientifically or nutritionally.
My other question is, which of these cells are the malfunctioning ones?
 
it seems to have to do at least partly with intestinal permeability....then once you have things passing thru places which should not be the body is more easily confused when seeing "normal" things....

so a thing like that can trigger inflammation, then that, makes the permeability issue worse etc and away we go....

i think its a few things involved tho......like presence/population of problematic microbes, average irritation by simple digestion etc....and how the body identifies and communicates within itself what its even looking at and dealing with....

so its not quite so easy really......is it this is it that....is it combo of things we dont fully understand yet? yes. unfortunately so...

you can see studies about diff compounds having this or that effect, but with chrons consistency is important, because it is a progressive disease doing permanent damage.....so its kind of like, yes there is evidence of this and that, but its not reliable enough to count on with the limited context we have so far...

im sorry you have to try to learn this its a subject full of wormholes, but there is more research every year to hopefully make it clearer one day.
 
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Scipio

Well-known member
Location
San Diego
With Crohns, IBD, etc, the body's cells start attacking instead of functioning as normal... Right?...

My question is, what are the known ways to suppress those cells and/or temporarily rid those cells... ... either scientifically or nutritionally.
My other question is, which of these cells are the malfunctioning ones?
Stopping or at least slowing down the attacking cells is exactly what the biologic drugs such as Remicade, Stelara, Entyvio, etc. are doing (or trying to do). Remicade and Humira both bind up TNF - a protein that stimulates certain white blood cells to become activated and attack. Stelara and Skyrizi both bind up IL23 - different protein that stimulates certain other white blood cells to become activated and attack. Entyvio binds up integrin - a cell surface protein that promotes white blood cells sticking to and communicating with other cells, again blunting the attack, since the activation attack signals passing between cells is reduced or stopped.

Now what causes the attacking white blood cells to go on the attack in the first place is a different question. What you are really asking then is "What causes Crohns disease?" That's where we get into all the different theories: MAP adherent E coli, fungus, antibiotic exposure, genetics, diet, food additives, or some combination of the above, etc. The list is long and there are new theories every year. It's clear there is a bacterial exposure involved in many cases of Crohn's, but the exact mechanism is not known, and there are multiple candidate bacterial villains.

The immune system is an immensely complex network of interacting cells and proteins, and as such it can be disrupted in multiple different ways. Thus, there is no one cause of Crohn's disease, but there are several different and different types of disruptions that can trigger an overly active immune response that we would recognize as IBD.
 
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it seems to have to do at least partly with intestinal permeability....then once you have things passing thru places which should not be the body is more easily confused when seeing "normal" things....

so a thing like that can trigger inflammation, then that, makes the permeability issue worse etc and away we go....

i think its a few things involved tho......like presence/population of problematic microbes, average irritation by simple digestion etc....and how the body identifies and communicates within itself what its even looking at and dealing with....

so its not quite so easy really......is it this is it that....is it combo of things we dont fully understand yet? yes. unfortunately so...

you can see studies about diff compounds having this or that effect, but with chrons consistency is important, because it is a progressive disease doing permanent damage.....so its kind of like, yes there is evidence of this and that, but its not reliable enough to count on with the limited context we have so far...

im sorry you have to try to learn this its a subject full of wormholes, but there is more research every year to hopefully make it clearer one day.
Wow thank you for that, that was beautifully written, I appreciate your cognizance and insight into the, 'this & thats' of it all.
 
Stopping or at least slowing down the attacking cells is exactly what the biologic drugs such as Remicade, Stelara, Entyvio, etc. are doing (or trying to do). Remicade and Humira both bind up TNF - a protein that stimulates certain white blood cells to become activated and attack. Stelara and Skyrizi both bind up IL23 - different protein that stimulates certain other white blood cells to become activated and attack. Entyvio binds up integrin - a cell surface protein that promotes white blood cells sticking to and communicating with other cells, again blunting the attack, since the activation attack signals passing between cells is reduced or stopped.

Now what causes the attacking white blood cells to go on the attack in the first place is a different question. What you are really asking then is "What causes Crohns disease?" That's where we get into all the different theories: MAP adherent E coli, fungus, antibiotic exposure, genetics, diet, food additives, or some combination of the above, etc. The list is long and there are new theories every year. It's clear there is a bacterial exposure involved in many cases of Crohn's, but the exact mechanism is not known, and there are multiple candidate bacterial villains.

The immune system is an immensely complex network of interacting cells and proteins, and as such it can be disrupted in multiple different ways. Thus, there is no one cause of Crohn's disease, but there are several different and different types of disruptions that can trigger an overly active immune response that we would recognize as IBD.
This is probably a silly question as I dont know much of what I'm saying... But...
Does protein seem to be a reoccurring theme/element in terms of how its effect
on Crohns is?.... Like, is it ~ protein that makes the most achievable vantage point,
in terms of maybe.... suppressing said protein/ limiting it?
 

Scipio

Well-known member
Location
San Diego
This is probably a silly question as I dont know much of what I'm saying... But...
Does protein seem to be a reoccurring theme/element in terms of how its effect
on Crohns is?.... Like, is it ~ protein that makes the most achievable vantage point,
in terms of maybe.... suppressing said protein/ limiting it?
Do you mean, that since certain proteins play a key role in controlling or stimulating the immune system including the overactive immune response of Crohn's, could reducing or limiting intake of protein in our diets serve to reduce the incidence or severity of Crohn's disease? If that's what you meant then the answer is no. Your body makes over 20,000 different proteins, and they control nearly everything. The type of proteins that control the immune system, collectively called cytokines, make up only a tiny fraction of the total protein inventory in your body. You would starve to death long before you cured your Crohn's by reducing your protein intake.

A much better approach is to knock down just the specific proteins involved in the Crohn's and not proteins in general. And that is exactly what the biologic Crohn's drugs such and Remicade, Humira, Stelara, etc. are trying to do - with varying degrees of success.
 
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What our doc told us today was quite interesting. She agreed that there has to have a trigger (she is actually seeing COVID induced gut inflammation in several cases now) and there could be more than one trigger (bacteria, virus, fungus, microplastics, unseen environmental factors + xyz...). These triggers add up and contribute to the formation of CD (with the help of the genetics). The key is to identify the trigger(s) and plug away one by one.

I wonder how many of us have actually successfully "lowered" the inflammation numbers due to diet/lifestyle change? And is it correct to conclude (I didn't ask her this question, will next time) that if diet changes have not helped with the inflammation then diets are not the trigger?
 
with diet i think the problem is it is too complicated a topic to even put it in a box.....so i am skeptical of something saying diet absolutely is or isnt, triggering, whatever.....

even if a single person keeps an exact routine, the body still mixes things up and there are always variables....so month to month, things can change and act differently...

im with you on the combo of things and a threshold type concept tho....it doesnt really make sense to be so simple solution like just dont eat lectins etc, but i suppose it also matters how bad the chrons is, which, for me, i dont think doctors will even agree on that lol...plenty of mystery to go around...
 
with diet i think the problem is it is too complicated a topic to even put it in a box.....so i am skeptical of something saying diet absolutely is or isnt, triggering, whatever.....

even if a single person keeps an exact routine, the body still mixes things up and there are always variables....so month to month, things can change and act differently...

im with you on the combo of things and a threshold type concept tho....it doesnt really make sense to be so simple solution like just dont eat lectins etc, but i suppose it also matters how bad the chrons is, which, for me, i dont think doctors will even agree on that lol...plenty of mystery to go around...
Yeah this CD formula is too complicated for most of us. Some are able to go off med doing whatever proprietary treatment custom tailored for them and they are not on this forum (or often). For the rest of us, it's a lot of thinking and reading and rethinking. My son is having side effects from his biologics now. Our doc said when one immune pathway gets turned off, the other tends to get pushed up. One autoimmune problem's fix breaks the other one.
 
sad to hear that....i know, we never know what twists and turns with this, there are some good ones as well tho and i know you are all over every option...
with me i still really have no clue...lol....but i do have an appt with my PCP next week so that will be the first labs ive seen in a year or whatever its been....should be kind of interesting idk....
i think i am getting better about the fiber balance part....people want to pity like only eat certain things etc, but i literally dont think about it at all....just happy to be something close to normal digestion....and hopefully nutrition but i guess we will see that too ;P
 
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Do you mean, that since certain proteins play a key role in controlling or stimulating the immune system including the overactive immune response of Crohn's, could reducing or limiting intake of protein in our diets serve to reduce the incidence or severity of Crohn's disease? If that's what you meant then the answer is no. Your body makes over 20,000 different proteins, and they control nearly everything. The type of proteins that control the immune system, collectively called cytokines, make up only a tiny fraction of the total protein inventory in your body. You would starve to death long before you cured your Crohn's by reducing your protein intake.

A much better approach is to knock down just the specific proteins involved in the Crohn's and not proteins in general. And that is exactly what the biologic Crohn's drugs such and Remicade, Humira, Stelara, etc. are trying to do - with varying degrees of success.
OOOOO okay that is exactly what i was pondering, thank you.


Yeah this CD formula is too complicated for most of us. Some are able to go off med doing whatever proprietary treatment custom tailored for them and they are not on this forum (or often). For the rest of us, it's a lot of thinking and reading and rethinking. My son is having side effects from his biologics now. Our doc said when one immune pathway gets turned off, the other tends to get pushed up. One autoimmune problem's fix breaks the other one.
Oh thats interesting.


....i do have an appt with my PCP next week so that will be the first labs ive seen in a year...
Oh okay good luck!
 
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