David
Co-Founder
It seems that lettuce is a trigger food for many here. Is it for you? And has anyone pondered WHY lettuce might be so problematic for so many (if it indeed is)?
Is lettuce a trigger food for you?
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nogutsnoglory
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Cooking does break down fibers but lettuce is supposed to be low fiber.
Nope, I love Cesar salads and have never experienced a prob earring them
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My godmother's the only other person I know personally with CD and she can't touch any lettuce at all. I've never noticed a problem, though. 
NiceCupOfTea
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I don't think lettuce is triggering as such for me, but it can be very indigestible, especially the frizzy stuff - most of it ends up in the toilet.
Terriernut
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Lettuce can cause me some problems. Anything difficult to 'break down' and my bowel makes me pay! I'd KILL for a big salad!
I'm a fairly cautious with lettuce - a bit of shredded iceberg is ok on a chicken salad sandwich ( no seeds in the cucumber, but tomato ok)
Certainly a big bowl of that dark leafy mesclun mix - like a Thai beef salad etc, would -> D. Baby English spinach seems a bit gentler as a substitute green
In general I stir fry or par boil veges lightly, rather than eating them raw.
HD
Certainly a big bowl of that dark leafy mesclun mix - like a Thai beef salad etc, would -> D. Baby English spinach seems a bit gentler as a substitute green
In general I stir fry or par boil veges lightly, rather than eating them raw.
HD
When I am in a flare I can't do any lettuce or raw vegatables. When I am not in a flare I can usually get by with eating a salad every now and then. Especially if it is a few days after my humaria. I won't eat lettuce or raw vegatables a few days before it is time for humaria wearing off.
Lettuce/spinach/beets and many others are loaded with nitrate.Especially non organic or hydroponic,higher yet.
The nitrate converts to nitrite,then converts to NO.
If I take arginine a NO doner I get worse.
Excess nitrite and sulfite may interfere with butyrate transport.
I will post info in the research and news section.
I have UC.
Old Mike
The nitrate converts to nitrite,then converts to NO.
If I take arginine a NO doner I get worse.
Excess nitrite and sulfite may interfere with butyrate transport.
I will post info in the research and news section.
I have UC.
Old Mike
David
Co-Founder
Mike,
My research has taken me there as well. This is an amazing read if you haven't seen it.
Guess who has the highest intake of these nitrates - Europeans - North america wasn't tallied, too bad.
I've always wondered why people with IBD have SO MUCH trouble with salads. Maybe this is why:
Source
And you know all that hydroponic lettuce bring grown in hot houses these days? The nitrate levels of those are off the charts.
Oh my:
Corticosteroids inhibit nitric oxide.
Remicade lowers nitric oxide levels.
So does Azathioprine - they say 6-MP doesn't but then there's this.
And here's a tidbit for low dose naltrexone.
My research has taken me there as well. This is an amazing read if you haven't seen it.
Guess who has the highest intake of these nitrates - Europeans - North america wasn't tallied, too bad.
I've always wondered why people with IBD have SO MUCH trouble with salads. Maybe this is why:
Source
And you know all that hydroponic lettuce bring grown in hot houses these days? The nitrate levels of those are off the charts.
Oh my:
Source
Corticosteroids inhibit nitric oxide.
Remicade lowers nitric oxide levels.
So does Azathioprine - they say 6-MP doesn't but then there's this.
And here's a tidbit for low dose naltrexone.
Good article on the peroxynitrate. They talk about arginine,it makes me worse.
I believe that the use of nitrogen fertilizers starting 1913 with the Haber process,making cheap nitrogen fertilizer is resulting in excessive nitrate consumption. IBD in the usa started to increase sometime in the 1920's we have to continue to look at history to figure out what is going on. One reason they might not be able to figure out IBD is that most eat the same foods,even if vegan,I have been trying to figue out for years why some vegetarians get IBD,high nitrate may be one of them. There is no reason for me to believe that our bodies can handle this excessive nitrate load.
Old Mike
I believe that the use of nitrogen fertilizers starting 1913 with the Haber process,making cheap nitrogen fertilizer is resulting in excessive nitrate consumption. IBD in the usa started to increase sometime in the 1920's we have to continue to look at history to figure out what is going on. One reason they might not be able to figure out IBD is that most eat the same foods,even if vegan,I have been trying to figue out for years why some vegetarians get IBD,high nitrate may be one of them. There is no reason for me to believe that our bodies can handle this excessive nitrate load.
Old Mike
Terriernut
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Wow. Every single one on the lower end doesnt bother me much. The items on the high and very high...oh dear, cant even smell them without getting ill!
David
Co-Founder
I'm a permaculture farmer.
Wanna know what happens to a plant that gets too much nitrogen?
They get fertilizer burn where the plant becomes dessicated as a result of osmotic stress. Then the bugs eat it. Unless of course you pour pesticides on it.
Bugs tend to leave healthy plants alone, especially when there are plenty of good predatory bugs around due to there being habitat for them and the farmer doesn't kill them with pesticides.
I think something similar happens in humans with IBD. We kill tons of our good bugs, we don't create a good habitat for our immune system/good bugs, and then cause a sort of fertilizer burn of our tissues and the bad bugs invade.
Wanna know what happens to a plant that gets too much nitrogen?
They get fertilizer burn where the plant becomes dessicated as a result of osmotic stress. Then the bugs eat it. Unless of course you pour pesticides on it.
Bugs tend to leave healthy plants alone, especially when there are plenty of good predatory bugs around due to there being habitat for them and the farmer doesn't kill them with pesticides.
I think something similar happens in humans with IBD. We kill tons of our good bugs, we don't create a good habitat for our immune system/good bugs, and then cause a sort of fertilizer burn of our tissues and the bad bugs invade.
David
Co-Founder
The pesticide (Cipro/Flagyl) often works, but it kills the good bugs too. Some bugs always survive though, and over time can become resistant to your pesticides. Your remicade, LDN, thiopurines, etc stop the fertilizer burn but you're still ingesting that fertilizer.
What we want to do is create a permaculture farm in the human body. Mother nature is much smarter than we are. No fertilizer, no pesticide, no row crops, no monoculture, plenty of sunlight, all the micronutrients, all the macronutrients, and everything working together in a beneficial manner to achieve homeostasis.
What we want to do is create a permaculture farm in the human body. Mother nature is much smarter than we are. No fertilizer, no pesticide, no row crops, no monoculture, plenty of sunlight, all the micronutrients, all the macronutrients, and everything working together in a beneficial manner to achieve homeostasis.
This thread is a prime example of how a little knowledge can be dangerous.
It is actually well intentioned, but nonetheless alarmist. Most people today live in a profound reality that requires far more rigorous analysis, rather than purely 'intelligent speculation.'
Some basic facts:
The ingestion of foods containing nitrates raises plasma levels (levels in the blood) of nitrogen compounds. Nitrite particles are extremely important in antimicrobial activity, and vasoregulation, as well as in many other normal (and vital) physiological functions. Whether or not an excess of some of these compounds (which are normally excreted harmlessly via urine) is detrimental or otherwise, is not yet known. Speculation is, as always, rife amongst the amateur pseudo-scientific population . However, the facts do not support alarm at this stage. The relationship to IBD is even more tenuous (a very long bow to draw.)
efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/doc/689.pdf
ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/1/11.full
The increased levels of nitrogen compounds found in the stool of IBD patients has nothing at all to do with the consumption of nitrogen containing foods. Those increases are found as a result of the inflammatory processes involved in IBD (induction of pro-inflammatory cytokines). Colonic nitrogen compounds are produced by intestinal epithelial cells. They are not present due to ingestion of nitrogen containing foods.
NO (nitrogen monoxide) production is considered to be essential in gut homeostasis and to have a protective role during intestinal inflammation.
Whether or not other synthesized isoforms are in any way detrimental, is the subject of recent research, and not yet conclusive one way or the other.
Extreme caution should be undertaken in making wild claims, such as the analogy of 'fertilizer burn'.
Whilst there is a natural compulsion (particularly for some middle class Americans) to indulge in discussions about; every kind of food and its deleterious effects on the the human body, grass fed cattle, and organic fruit and vegetables, it is a misnomer for the real world population and purely speculative in nature. Research must be more thorough, before wild claims and half truths are spread (however well-intentioned they may be.)
An example of ideology versus reality:
There is no longer enough surface area on the planet for the kind of food production we once enjoyed. The population is now too large. For example, grass fed cattle need a minimum of 2.5 acres each in order to feed. This rises to over 100 acres in poorer quality land. The surface area of the USA is simply not great enough to support this type of farming if all people in the USA were to eat purely grass fed animals. The rest of the world has land far less arable, and far more densely populated, and therefore even less able to be farmed this way.
The real discussion ought to be about population control (and alternative farming processes) but no-one wants to talk about that as it is an uncomfortable subject. Why do people think intensive farming and genetic engineering have been undertaken? It is the extreme population growth that necessitated this kind of work.
So we have indulgent ideology about grass fed animals and organic crops led by the privileged few. And we have the relentless demonizing of foods in the manner seen on this thread (and in many others) as it supports the wonderfully naive agenda, which we all wish was a viable one and a cure-all for IBD.
God help the majority of the world's population, who have to eat in the real world conditions of today. And god help the poor malnourished and underweight Crohnies who have to deal with all this non-science, whilst battling to maintain their caloric intake and well-being. Take greater care before making non-science claims.
Peace and love.
It is actually well intentioned, but nonetheless alarmist. Most people today live in a profound reality that requires far more rigorous analysis, rather than purely 'intelligent speculation.'
Some basic facts:
The ingestion of foods containing nitrates raises plasma levels (levels in the blood) of nitrogen compounds. Nitrite particles are extremely important in antimicrobial activity, and vasoregulation, as well as in many other normal (and vital) physiological functions. Whether or not an excess of some of these compounds (which are normally excreted harmlessly via urine) is detrimental or otherwise, is not yet known. Speculation is, as always, rife amongst the amateur pseudo-scientific population . However, the facts do not support alarm at this stage. The relationship to IBD is even more tenuous (a very long bow to draw.)
efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/doc/689.pdf
ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/1/11.full
The increased levels of nitrogen compounds found in the stool of IBD patients has nothing at all to do with the consumption of nitrogen containing foods. Those increases are found as a result of the inflammatory processes involved in IBD (induction of pro-inflammatory cytokines). Colonic nitrogen compounds are produced by intestinal epithelial cells. They are not present due to ingestion of nitrogen containing foods.
NO (nitrogen monoxide) production is considered to be essential in gut homeostasis and to have a protective role during intestinal inflammation.
Whether or not other synthesized isoforms are in any way detrimental, is the subject of recent research, and not yet conclusive one way or the other.
Extreme caution should be undertaken in making wild claims, such as the analogy of 'fertilizer burn'.
Whilst there is a natural compulsion (particularly for some middle class Americans) to indulge in discussions about; every kind of food and its deleterious effects on the the human body, grass fed cattle, and organic fruit and vegetables, it is a misnomer for the real world population and purely speculative in nature. Research must be more thorough, before wild claims and half truths are spread (however well-intentioned they may be.)
An example of ideology versus reality:
There is no longer enough surface area on the planet for the kind of food production we once enjoyed. The population is now too large. For example, grass fed cattle need a minimum of 2.5 acres each in order to feed. This rises to over 100 acres in poorer quality land. The surface area of the USA is simply not great enough to support this type of farming if all people in the USA were to eat purely grass fed animals. The rest of the world has land far less arable, and far more densely populated, and therefore even less able to be farmed this way.
The real discussion ought to be about population control (and alternative farming processes) but no-one wants to talk about that as it is an uncomfortable subject. Why do people think intensive farming and genetic engineering have been undertaken? It is the extreme population growth that necessitated this kind of work.
So we have indulgent ideology about grass fed animals and organic crops led by the privileged few. And we have the relentless demonizing of foods in the manner seen on this thread (and in many others) as it supports the wonderfully naive agenda, which we all wish was a viable one and a cure-all for IBD.
God help the majority of the world's population, who have to eat in the real world conditions of today. And god help the poor malnourished and underweight Crohnies who have to deal with all this non-science, whilst battling to maintain their caloric intake and well-being. Take greater care before making non-science claims.
Peace and love.
David
Co-Founder
Handle (I say Handle as I don't think you should passive aggressively hide behind your new persona, Pieman), I realize you have everything invested in your theory that diet plays no role in the pathogenesis of IBD and that's fine. But your theory is just like my theory, a theory.
Anyway, I'm not concerned about nitrates and nitrites. I'm concerned about what they turn into. Peroxynitrite. And that is what IS shown to cause a whole host of problems.
As for your other ideology, this isn't the place to discuss it but it is a good example of how, "A little knowledge can be dangerous." But good try hijacking the thread.
I assume you'll run off for a few months again and come back and personally attack me via PM like you did this time. Next time, try changing your IP. Although I knew it was you before I even checked the IP. I've been dealing with people like you for far too long and you're all the same despite thinking you're special snowflakes.
Or, come back as yourself and debate in a healthy, constructive, supportive manner where we can all learn and build off each other's knowledge and you'll be welcomed back. I have no attachment to being correct and am happy for better information to be presented. But I don't put up with jerks.
Peace and love.
Anyway, I'm not concerned about nitrates and nitrites. I'm concerned about what they turn into. Peroxynitrite. And that is what IS shown to cause a whole host of problems.
Source
http://gut.bmj.com/content/46/3/436.full
As for your other ideology, this isn't the place to discuss it but it is a good example of how, "A little knowledge can be dangerous." But good try hijacking the thread.
I assume you'll run off for a few months again and come back and personally attack me via PM like you did this time. Next time, try changing your IP. Although I knew it was you before I even checked the IP. I've been dealing with people like you for far too long and you're all the same despite thinking you're special snowflakes.
Or, come back as yourself and debate in a healthy, constructive, supportive manner where we can all learn and build off each other's knowledge and you'll be welcomed back. I have no attachment to being correct and am happy for better information to be presented. But I don't put up with jerks.
Peace and love.
What a nasty response, David.
My post may have been somewhat confronting, and clearly completely misunderstood by you, but since when is that an invitation for personal abuse? And since when is that sort of abuse acceptable practice?
I guess reporting your multiple bizarre personal attacks to Admin would not get very far : )
When did I try to push any 'theory' of mine? Apparently this theory (news to me) involves denial that diet plays any role in the pathogenesis of IBD. How peculiar. In truth I have never presented any theory whatsoever.
You certainly do push your own 'theory' though, almost constantly.
You bring up here, in open forum, my PM to you, which was not a personal attack, as you well know - and your response certainly appeared to be friendly and welcoming, albeit brief. But your open forum response is a disgrace. I made it clear to you why I took a long break, and changed forum name (which is no big deal)- but you have now betrayed any trust implicit in private messages.
I do realize you have all the power on this forum to do exactly as you please, unchecked.
And no doubt your response to this post (like your previous one) will demonstrate that.
Why would I want to help you any further?
My post may have been somewhat confronting, and clearly completely misunderstood by you, but since when is that an invitation for personal abuse? And since when is that sort of abuse acceptable practice?
I guess reporting your multiple bizarre personal attacks to Admin would not get very far : )
When did I try to push any 'theory' of mine? Apparently this theory (news to me) involves denial that diet plays any role in the pathogenesis of IBD. How peculiar. In truth I have never presented any theory whatsoever.
You certainly do push your own 'theory' though, almost constantly.
You bring up here, in open forum, my PM to you, which was not a personal attack, as you well know - and your response certainly appeared to be friendly and welcoming, albeit brief. But your open forum response is a disgrace. I made it clear to you why I took a long break, and changed forum name (which is no big deal)- but you have now betrayed any trust implicit in private messages.
I do realize you have all the power on this forum to do exactly as you please, unchecked.
And no doubt your response to this post (like your previous one) will demonstrate that.
Why would I want to help you any further?
David
Co-Founder
You're an arsonist complaining about the fire alarms. You come back under a fake persona acting like you're new to the community, post a variety of passive aggressive remarks, send me a private message attacking me in a variety of ways including suggesting I shouldn't be an administrator here, and you're surprised that I don't give you a big hug?
And you speak of trust?
:lol:
And you can report the post. You'd be surprised what would happen if other staff decided I am in the wrong. I'm human and make mistakes and apologize when I do. But my argument would be that as an administrator, I don't have to take your abuse. Just as if you slapped me in real life, I'd lay you out. But what I am doing is offering you a hand to get back up while looking you in the eyes and asking, "Are you done?"
Enough hijacking of this thread. I am closing your Pieman account. You may come back as Handle if you so desire but as mentioned, any response you make needs to lose the passive aggressive, unsupportive tone or you'll be banned. Kiny, that guy you once ranted about so much has changed how he conducts himself and is a wonderful member of the community now. Can you follow his lead? I hope so. If not, best of luck to you but please go elsewhere.
And you speak of trust?
:lol:
And you can report the post. You'd be surprised what would happen if other staff decided I am in the wrong. I'm human and make mistakes and apologize when I do. But my argument would be that as an administrator, I don't have to take your abuse. Just as if you slapped me in real life, I'd lay you out. But what I am doing is offering you a hand to get back up while looking you in the eyes and asking, "Are you done?"
Enough hijacking of this thread. I am closing your Pieman account. You may come back as Handle if you so desire but as mentioned, any response you make needs to lose the passive aggressive, unsupportive tone or you'll be banned. Kiny, that guy you once ranted about so much has changed how he conducts himself and is a wonderful member of the community now. Can you follow his lead?
I hope so. If not, best of luck to you but please go elsewhere.
