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We have a Treatment Plan!

We saw the GI in Atlanta this week and thought he was great - very knowledgeable and really educated us about Primary Intestinal Lymphangiectasia. He explained that A does not digest fat properly, so every time she eats foods high in fat she's causing damage to her intestines. We're going to try a diet high in protein/low in fat. It should make a difference, but as you know healing will be slow.

We discussed using low dose prednisone if her gut needs a little boost to start the healing process...we'll see. We also discussed a scope procedure that uses a gas to "burn" her intestines (it doesn't hurt) forcing them to re-heal with the hope that the lymphatic vessels return to their normal size. We'll look at that option next year based on how she is doing with diet alone. We're starting with a very conservative approach because the drugs for PIL are limited and not at all convenient.

He did mention that he feels she has an immune issue separate from the protein loss caused by the PIL. Based on her scopes that always showed minor acute inflammation and changes not commonly found in PIL he thinks there is an immune dysfunction causing issues as well. He said it can be hard to differentiate which process is causing the symptoms. He described it as a very mild version of Crohn's...but not Crohn's....yet.

The lumps on her ribs have doubled in size and become even more painful. He felt that they were inflamed lymph nodes, which makes sense because she has a lymphatic disease. We're trying an Aleve/Prilosec (to prevent bleeding) combo to try to manage the pain and reduce the inflammation. We'll see...they may need to be removed at some point.

I feel relieved that we have a doctor that is willing to educate us and seems to genuinely want A to get better. It definitely gives me hope!
 
So A has been on the high protein/low fat diet for a week. She's getting 10-15 grams of fat per day and that's going well. I'm learning to plan ahead and she's adjusting to not being allowed to eat certain foods. Her weight loss has slowed down but she's not gaining....yet. Hopefully in a few weeks we'll see some gains.

Her WBC continue to be low and she's Neutropenic again. Lots of viruses floating around right now....

The lymph nodes on her ribs continue to be inflamed and very large but the Aleve helps her deal with the pain. We see the Immunologist in 4 weeks so we'll see what she thinks then.

All in all A is doing fairly well and it seems like she is starting to get some of her energy back. GI symptoms are very minimal and life is slowly getting back to normal.
 

Maya142

Moderator
Staff member
Also wanted to add - we have learned over the years that different people respond to different NSAIDs. So if the Aleve/Prilosec combination does not work or causes side effects, another NSAID might still work. Rheumatologists often use Mobic or Celebrex for kids with JIA and gut issues.
 
I'm glad you have a plan and at least the weight loss is slowing. Crossing my fingers that things improve quickly.

I'm curious about the lymph nodes -where on her ribs are they exactly, are they in between the ribs or actually on top of them, and how many and how big are they? Are they stable in size, increasing or decreasing? I've never seen/ heard of lymph nodes on ribs so I'm curious.
 
Also wanted to add - we have learned over the years that different people respond to different NSAIDs. So if the Aleve/Prilosec combination does not work or causes side effects, another NSAID might still work. Rheumatologists often use Mobic or Celebrex for kids with JIA and gut issues.
The Aleve is to reduce the inflammation in her lymph nodes...not for joint/arthritis issues. I'm not sure that Mobic or Celebrex would work the same. Ibuprofen was not helpful at all but the Aleve has helped some.
 
I'm glad you have a plan and at least the weight loss is slowing. Crossing my fingers that things improve quickly.

I'm curious about the lymph nodes -where on her ribs are they exactly, are they in between the ribs or actually on top of them, and how many and how big are they? Are they stable in size, increasing or decreasing? I've never seen/ heard of lymph nodes on ribs so I'm curious.
She has several large lumps on the bottom portion of the left side of her rib cage. They are not between the ribs and it is difficult to tell how many are actually inflamed. At times they seem to join together in one large lump the size of a toddler's fist. Apparently we have lymph nodes throughout our entire body (and the ones on the ribs rarely cause problems). A has been plagued by the nodes behind her right ear for years, and recently in her armpit and ribs. The ribs are by far the most painful.
 

Maya142

Moderator
Staff member
The Aleve is to reduce the inflammation in her lymph nodes...not for joint/arthritis issues. I'm not sure that Mobic or Celebrex would work the same. Ibuprofen was not helpful at all but the Aleve has helped some.
All NSAIDs reduce inflammation (they are "Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs"). Some work better than others, depending on the person. That might be why Aleve/Naproxen works better for her than Advil.

Mobic/Celebrex are just NSAIDs that are sometimes easier on the gut, that's all I meant (considering she does have gut issues!). If she can tolerate Aleve, that's great but if not, there are other options that might work better without the side effects.

We only learned that after my kiddo had gastritis, was anemic and had lost 15 lbs!
 
I see that your seeing the immunologist in 4 weeks. Did he/she ever see the lymph nodes there? Could you call him or her and see if there's anything to do for the swollen nodes?
 
I see that your seeing the immunologist in 4 weeks. Did he/she ever see the lymph nodes there? Could you call him or her and see if there's anything to do for the swollen nodes?
She saw the lumps about 6 weeks ago when they first appeared. She thought it was erythema nodosum and prescribed a prednisone pack. That didn't help so she prescribed another. It seems pretty clear now that it wasn't erythema nodosum (though she did have a horrible outbreak at the time so that made since back then).

The GI recommended Aleve and heat....and time. Said that's all we can really do for now. If they continue to cause problems and not respond to treatment they may have to be removed. The Prilosec has worked well to combat any GI issues from the Aleve.
 
So were the lumps associated with redness/ discoloration of the skin as is typical for erythema nodosum? If you haven't, I would make sure the immunologist knows that she is still dealing with this.

Sending positive healing thoughts her way!
 
So were the lumps associated with redness/ discoloration of the skin as is typical for erythema nodosum? If you haven't, I would make sure the immunologist knows that she is still dealing with this.

Sending positive healing thoughts her way!
No they were not. No redness at all. The infusion nurse sent a message over to her clinic so she'll find out this week. Inflamed lymph nodes are part of her lymphatic disease so I doubt she'll bat an eye. Thank you for the positive thoughts!
 
Why is it that just when I get settled into our new normal someone pulls the rug out from under me? The Immunologist called and wants to see A this week. She's very concerned about her labs/ribs (and she's not the overly cautious type). My Mom instinct is telling me this is all part of her disease and she's fine. I hope I'm right.
 
Try to take it one step at a time [easier said than done].

It is good you are seeing the doctor.

Wishing her all the best.
 
The Immunologist said we were doing everything right regarding the lymph nodes. Said she'd wait several months before doing surgery but ultimately it was up to us. A is frustrated because it's getting worse instead of better. I want to give it a little more time.

On a positive note, she thought she looked better than the last two times she saw her. Said her color looked good. I think her energy level is up and I'm glad she looks healthier.
 
A is now down a total of 5 lbs and has a very distended tummy. She's not constipated and I'm hoping it's not fluid. She's started passing blood several times per day so we're holding off on the Aleve for now. As you can imagine her rib pain is much worse. This is absolutely no fun. I emailed the GI but no response yet.
 

my little penguin

Moderator
Staff member
Can you use volteran gel on her ribs?
When ds gets run inflammation from JSpA we have used that
It doesn't affect his gi tract like Mobic does.
Is she taking in the same amount of calories a day on her new diet ???

Hope gi has answers for you
 

Maya142

Moderator
Staff member
We also use Voltaren gel. Sometimes Lidoderm (lidocaine) patches work too (and are pretty benign).

Really hope the GI has suggestions :ghug:.
 
We didn't count calories before the diet so I have nothing to compare to. She eats mostly fish, shrimp, turkey, chicken, pasta, rice, potatoes, fruits and veggies. We're experimenting with protein shakes but haven't found one she likes.

I'm not sure if the gel would help. The swelling is pretty significant. We'll see what the GI suggests. I will contact the Immunologist next week when she's in clinic.
 

Maya142

Moderator
Staff member
We do NSAIDs with a PPI - that helps prevent GI issues. My younger daughter became very anemic before we finally figured out she needed a PPI.

It doesn't work for everyone and if she's bleeding a lot it may be too risky to try it though.

Tramadol might help with the pain and should not bother her stomach too much.

Sending hugs!
 

my little penguin

Moderator
Staff member
We didn't count calories before but the GI can give a number of get x amount of calories in and bump up to y if she is dancing.
My fitness pal helps
Ds is to have 2000-2300 depending on activity
Very easy but let's the gi know if he starts losing weight that it's not just not eating enough
He has gastroparesis so he typically can not eat enough with just food

Really important when you go low fat since large volumes are needed to get the same amount of calories
Ds is low fat low fiber
 
Maya, she has been taking Prilosec twice a day.

MLP- I'm not sure if the diet is causing the weight loss because she lost 3-4 lbs prior to starting the diet. She's just been unwell. I'm trying to give her body time to turn things around before asking for Prednisone.
 
We do NSAIDs with a PPI - that helps prevent GI issues. My younger daughter became very anemic before we finally figured out she needed a PPI.

It doesn't work for everyone and if she's bleeding a lot it may be too risky to try it though.

Tramadol might help with the pain and should not bother her stomach too much.

Sending hugs!
I use tramadol Grace. It doesn't upset her tummy. Now she's on on even stronger stuff. Still no tummy ached.
 
We're going to the ER. Bleeding has increased and she's in so much pain she can barely function. I'm hoping they take us serious and help her. This is unacceptable.
 
Is her immunologist and gi on staff at the ER ?


Hope they can help
Immunologist is at a different hospital. We went there in September and they were not at all helpful. Blew us off. GI is here but we haven't seen him since April. He doesn't know we're here. Not sure how helpful he'd be since he argued her PIL diagnosis.
 

my little penguin

Moderator
Staff member
Hope she gets some help
I know for ds
If we randomly go to the ER without the specialists calling in
The ER doctors get confused on how to help
 
He said because it's nighttime that they won't consult with any specialists. He was ready to write her off but I may have gotten a tad bit ugly and demanded better care. Waiting on lab and x-ray results. Praying for answers.
 

my little penguin

Moderator
Staff member
Really
That's ridiculous
We have 24 hours an attending is on call for every specialist as well as lots of fellows
Hope you get some guidance
 

Maya142

Moderator
Staff member
That's absolutely ridiculous - we have gone many times at night and gotten them to consult with fellows at the very least.

I hope they will at least give her something for pain.

Hang in there :ghug:.
 
They gave her Toradol for pain. It helped minimally. Labs were all over the place (CBC and BMP) but he considered them negative. Chest x-ray was normal. So we were sent home, not helped again. His diagnosis? The massive lump on her ribs is her normal rib structure that had to have been there since birth but we never noticed it until 2 months ago. The pain is nerve pain and she needs Gabapentin. Her bloody stools are not a concern unless she's anemic.

Our healthcare system is a joke. A asked me to leave her alone and let her stay in bed all day. My determined, push through anything girl has given up. I'm heartbroken and pissed off.
 

my little penguin

Moderator
Staff member
Big hugs btdt with Ds earlier this year
When they don't understand what is going on it's always nerve pain
Then they don't have to do anything
Hope her immunologist can help
 
I have a call in to the Immunologist. It shouldn't be this difficult. The ER doc took one look at her diagnoses and said he couldn't help her.

A question for you all....this doctor swore to me that inflamed lymph nodes are not painful, therefore this isn't a lymph node issue. Have you ever had swollen lymph nodes that were painful?
 

Maya142

Moderator
Staff member
What about seeing pain management, so that you have a plan for pain? We have found they are best at treating chronic pain (whether it's nerve pain or not).

If we go to the ER, the ER doc calls the on-call pain management doctor who tells them how to treat M. But we also have "rescue" meds for severe pain, so that we can avoid the ER.

Many children's hospitals have pain management specialists now.

A's disease is rare and most ER's are not so good at rare or unusual conditions :(. Poor kiddo. I hope the immunologist has a plan.
 
I'm not sure about your question.
But I second the pain doc.
Grace has on and he's great at situations like that.
 
Inflamed lymph nodes can definitely be painful.
That said, it doesn't mean her issue is an inflamed lymph node.

I am really confused about her rib issue. Did the ER doctor say s/he only felt ribs where you felt a lump? Did the immunologist feel the same lump and say it was lymph nodes?
Is the lump getting bigger or 'just' staying/ or getting more painful?
 
Inflamed lymph nodes can definitely be painful.
That said, it doesn't mean her issue is an inflamed lymph node.

I am really confused about her rib issue. Did the ER doctor say s/he only felt ribs where you felt a lump? Did the immunologist feel the same lump and say it was lymph nodes?
Is the lump getting bigger or 'just' staying/ or getting more painful?

I was going to chime in, and hope i am not bothering you in anyway. The lump size, as questioned in the quote. Is it possible to: measure and use a non toxic marker to be able to visually see if changing size as a possibility???

I do know what nerve pain is like, and it can be difficult to manage. A few tips, too warm/hot can make it worse things like a heating pad, baths, showers,etc. , and too cold can also. Sometimes clothes even hurt, sheets, ... loose fitting clothing can be helpful.

Be well, God bless
 
I'm not sure how much a pain doctor could help if he/she doesn't know the cause of her pain. If we're dealing with tumors/lymph nodes I want them removed ASAP.

xmdmom- The ER doctor saw a lump but said it was hard so it had to be bone. Therefore it was her normal bone structure and just so happened to have nerve pain there. The GI and Immunologist felt it and said it felt like lymph nodes. The size varies day to day but the pain is increasing. Today the additional 3 smaller lumps are visible as well. I showed the ER doc pictures of the lumps that were taken over the last 2 months and all he could say was that it could be some inflammation but it wasn't serious and shouldn't be painful.

Immunologist has not called back.
 
Pain docs don't need to know the cause.
They help with the drugs to cover the pain no matter the cause.
You'd be surprised (or at least I was) what can be done.
Her pain doc knows about the bowel disease and tailors every thing to that.
 

Maya142

Moderator
Staff member
Yes, they would keep the pain under control till they can get the Lymph node situation "fixed." Sometimes they use meds, or procedures or stuff like Biofeedback.

The point is to keep the kiddo more comfortable and functioning despite the pain.
 
Did she ever have a lymph node biopsy or lymphoscintigraphy? Is she thought to have lymphatic malformations or lymphangiomatosis? Did she ever have an MRI?

I have read about some very rare lymph disorders (associated in some cases with PIL) that have rib involvement and pain. If you are interested, I can give you more info.
 
Did she ever have a lymph node biopsy or lymphoscintigraphy? Is she thought to have lymphatic malformations or lymphangiomatosis? Did she ever have an MRI?

I have read about some very rare lymph disorders (associated in some cases with PIL) that have rib involvement and pain. If you are interested, I can give you more info.
I can't get anyone to tell me who performs these biopsies, etc. The ER doctor said the Immunologist would handle lymph node issues but her nurse called me this evening and said to schedule an appointment with a general surgeon. Passing us off...yet again. No one will order an MRI, CT scan, or anything other than an x-ray and ultrasound which have been normal.

I would love to have any information you can give me. I will do anything to help her.
 
So again I give this disclaimer that I know extremely little about lymphatics or lymph disorders. I found a few papers and I saw there can be bony involvement in some people with lymphatic issues.

Here are the papers.http://jpediatricsreview.com/en/articles/4790.html (too complicated for me to understand it all but apparently PIL and can be associated with other lymphatic malformation disorders. This really rare disorder was mentioned in the above
https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/gorham-stout-disease/ and mentions rib and pain. It also said don't do a rib biopsy because there are potential complications but I saw MRIs listed.

Thinking of her and hoping you find clarity and a resolution of her pain.
 
I will read over those links. Thank you!

She just came to me with a new painful area - her upper chest. Guess what? Lump there too. I'm calling Hematology Oncology tomorrow and begging for help.
 

my little penguin

Moderator
Staff member
I think that's a good idea
If they don't "help "
Plastic surgery at the hospital may be more willing to do a biopsy for you
Big hugs
 
Dance Mom,
my heart is breaking for her and for you as well. Is there possibly a rare diseases place that you could take her to?
there needs to be someone who can help. The places I am thinking are Mayo Clinic or NIH. NIH actually might be the answer. It is just awful that you can't get some answers for her.
Meanwhile I second the pain clinic. very often the cause for pain cannot be figured out but they help treat it.
 
She's the same...still in a lot of pain. Hematology won't see her without a referral so I spoke with the Immunology nurse and she's going to see if the Immunologist will do that. Nothing happens quickly in that office. I will call tomorrow to follow up, but I know she's only in clinic on Wednesdays and Thursdays....

Our hospital has a pain management program run by PTs and OTs. The services listed really don't sound like they would benefit A any more than what we could do at home. Warm baths help a little, but beyond that I think we have to find a treatment for the lymph nodes. Even the Toradol given in the ER didn't help much.
 

Maya142

Moderator
Staff member
That sounds like a pain program - typically for amplified pain. It's usually intense PT, OT and CBT plus other therapies. I agree, none of that sounds like what A needs.

I guess by pain management, I was really thinking Tramadol or even a stronger opioid if she needs it -- just until they can figure out what to do for the lymph nodes.
 

my little penguin

Moderator
Staff member
You may want to call pain management
Ours lists pt or etc but at the office the docs tend to actually prescribe painmjeds if needed and then have the option ot pt or etc ....
So worth a call at least
 
Is she doing any better? Did you get an apt with Hematology?
She's the same as far as the lymph nodes . Hematology has the referral but told me it takes 1-2 weeks to process. She's had diarrhea since Sunday but that seems to be slowing down a little. Her infusion is Monday so I'm hoping that will help.
 
I re-examined the lymph node in her chest tonight and compared it to last week's pic. It has doubled in size. She's only been going to dance 75% of the time but I'm considering pulling her altogether. The only reason I haven't yet is because I'm worried how it will affect her mental health. Dance is what she knows. This is awful.
 

my little penguin

Moderator
Staff member
When you take pics make sure there is a frame of reference in them
Something that the measurements are a fixed known
Like a penny or a ruler
Use the same object each time so the docs can see the difference
In measurement
Please call the immunologist to let them know it doubled as well
Big hugs to you and her
 

Maya142

Moderator
Staff member
I wish they could get you in faster with oncology/hematology based on her condition. Can her immunologist call and ask for them to see her urgently?

Sending hugs!
 

CarolinAlaska

Holding It Together
Dancemom, I'm sorry this has been going on so long without direction. I feel your frustration. I'm saying a prayer for her right now!
 
I've been praying. Please tell me there is some progress??? This is all so wrong.

I see where your daughter gets her tenacity and strength. You. Hang in there. I think I might be within driving distance and I'm so tempted to drive to those drs' offices and try to help you get something going. Waiting on news.
 
Dance Mom,
We were away and I was thinking of you guys. We just got back and first thing I wanted to see how your girl is doing. How is she? Any updates from the docs?
 
Lymph nodes are the same. Diarrhea has slowed way down. She has several large (3+ inches) deep blue bruises on her thigh, one on her calf, and one on the top of her arm. They look awful (think abuse) and seem to be in unlikely places for bad bruises with an unknown cause. Hopefully they run some labs at tomorrow's infusion.

No word from Hematology.

Thank you all for thinking of her!
 
Doctor came by this morning to see her. Said bruises looked normal. He's going to call Hematology and try to speed up the process. She's having an allergic reaction to the Privigen - eye swelling, headache, back pain and hives. Vitals are fine. They gave Benadryl and Hydrocortisone through the IV. When it rains it pours.
 
Did they pre treat with Benadryl and over steriods and she still reacted ??
They pre-treat with Tylenol, Benadryl, and Fluids. In the past they gave Solumedrol as well but we discontinued that because the doctor was concerned about the long term effects. Her infusions usually last 5-6 hours with the rate increasing as long as vitals remain stable. They will probably add Solu-Cortef as a pre-med.

She's feeling much better than earlier but her eyes are very dark and swollen. Thankfully she has the week off of school and dance and can just rest.

On a positive note her IgG went from 1070 (pre-diet), to 1000 (beginning of diet), to 1090 (today). I know it isn't a huge change, but I pray it is a sign of healing. It is the highest it has ever been! Norm is 528-2190....so still a little low considering she infuses every 4 weeks. But I'm clinging to any sign of hope! All other labs looked good as well.
 
We finally have a Hematology appointment! It isn't until the end of the year, but at least we have an appointment.

I think a week of rest has been really good for her. She doesn't look well, but she says her pain is a little better. She does have another horrible bruise on her thigh. Anyone know what could cause these awful bruises? Her platelets are within normal limits.
 
Platelet dysfunction (with normal number), clotting factor abnormalities (usually have bleeding too), vasculitis, vit K deficiency (can be due to gi problems like IBD or medications), vit c deficiency, steroids and other meds (NSAIDS) among other things can cause bruising.

Are her bruises palpable (do they form a lump that you can feel)? Where and how many bruises does she have?

Did they check her PT, and PTT? (blood tests)

Wish your apt was sooner. Hang in there!
 
Hi. I know you took her to Emory recently. I was just with someone (an adult) who was reviewed by an interdisciplinary group there that only sees undiagnosed patients who can't get answers elsewhere. Evidently you need to be a complete mystery and need a referral. Could they have these groups be at others hospitals? I have no idea if they cover peds. Maybe since she was a recent patient that dr might be a resource to get a review, even remotely?

I'm glad you have the hem appt. Hoping for some improvement before that.
 
She has not had any NSAIDs for a few weeks. They caused blood in her stools so we stopped immediately. She's always been an "easy bruiser", but these just look different. They are a deep purple/black, odd locations, and there was no known trauma. They are mostly on her upper thigh (3 large, 1 small), back of her calf (1 large), shins (10+ small and medium) and arms (10+ small). I can feel a slight lump on some of the larger ones.

She had her vitamin levels checked a few months ago and all was well except D (so we've been supplementing that). Hopefully Hematology will do thorough labs.
 
A has been doing pretty well...considering. Some cramps/diarrhea lately but there's lots of viruses going around. She shaved a little over 3 minutes off her 5k time and her tumbling is improving again. Both very good signs.

I'm a little discouraged that her IgG went from 1090 to 897. I know 2 months of the diet isn't enough time for healing, but I was hoping she wouldn't fall as much as 200 points. All other labs looked good. Patience is not one of my strengths.
 
For Christmas A got several new lumps on her pelvis and abdomen. Makes me so sad. Still had a great day though. Appointment is Friday.
 

Maya142

Moderator
Staff member
Really sorry to hear she is still not doing well. I will keep my fingers crossed for your appt.
 
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