# Fecal Transplants



## Cat-a-Tonic

I saw this article and just had to share.

http://www.slate.com/id/2282768/pagenum/all/#p2



> The Enema of Your Enemy is Your Friend
> Fecal transplants could be a cheap and effective treatment for gastrointestinal disorders.
> By Emily P. Walker
> Posted Thursday, Jan. 27, 2011, at 4:26 PM ET
> 
> One day in 2008, Ruth, a Long Island teacher, walked into her doctor's office with a container of a relative's feces, lay down, and had her doctor pump the stool inside her. Ruth had been suffering for nearly two years with an intestinal infection called Clostridium difficile, which caused her to suffer from excruciating diarrhea. She had lost 20 pounds. Her hair was falling out. Friends asked if she had cancer.
> 
> Then she met Lawrence Brandt, a gastroenterologist in the Bronx who believed he had developed a procedure to cure people of recurrent c. diff infections: fecal transplant. Brandt has been inserting feces into his patients for a decade now and claims to be solving their problems nearly 100 percent of the time. If his method really works—and he's not the only doctor who believes that it does—then we may have found a viable, if weird, solution to a serious problem. C. diff infects 250,000 Americans each year and killed more than 20,000 from 1999 to 2004. (Researchers estimate that 13 out of every 1,000 patients admitted to a hospital will pick up the bug.) Antibiotics will always be the first response to such infections, but when those fail, a fecal transplant could be the next step. For Ruth, at least, the procedure was a godsend. "I'm cured," she said. "Period. End of story. Cured."
> 
> Here's the basic idea. People suffering from the hardy C. diff bacteria are generally prescribed a powerful antibiotic. Problem is, the drugs don't just kill the invaders; they also wipe out much of the beneficial bacteria in the gut. With these "good" microorganisms out of the way, any C. diff stragglers have a much easier time regrouping for a second bout of illness. If there were some way to respawn the beneficial bacteria in the intestines, such re-infections could be warded off. Some people, like Ruth, turn to expensive probiotic supplements. (At one point she was spending $350 on them every week.) But in certain cases, a patient who has lost nearly all of her good bacteria will find it nearly impossible to get them back. A fecal transplant seems to work as a sort of mega-probiotic, allowing doctors to repopulate a patient's intestines with the appropriate microorganisms by placing a robust sample directly into her gut.
> 
> Doctors recommend that the fecal donor be someone close to the patient—a family member, perhaps, or a spouse. Scientists reason that when people live in close quarters, they are exposed to similar bacteria—good and bad—and are likely to have had a similar set of bacteria living in their guts before anyone got sick.
> 
> The donor takes a stool softener the night before and then gives a full morning bowel movement to the recipient, who takes it to a doctor for screening. It's important to make sure that the sample doesn't contain any parasites or other pathogens, such as hepatitis, salmonella, or HIV. Once the transplant material has been cleared, the doctor mixes it with saline to make about a pint of liquid with the consistency of a milkshake. This is pumped into the patient's colon using a colonoscope or endoscope, or siphoned into the stomach via a nasogastric tube. (The latter method is considered more dangerous, since there's a chance feces will end up in the lungs. Colonoscopies carry their own risk of bowel perforation.)
> 
> And then there's the do-it-yourself crowd. All you need is a bottle of saline, a 2-quart enema bag, and one standard kitchen blender. Mike Silverman, a University of Toronto physician who wrote up a guide to homespun fecal transplants for the journal Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology, says it's entirely safe to do the procedure this way, provided that a doctor gets involved at some point to screen the donor sample. He felt he needed to draw up the instructions because administrators at his hospital wouldn't allow their doctors to perform a procedure that hasn't been validated in a large, peer-reviewed study.
> 
> It's true there's been no major clinical trial of fecal transplants, but the procedure appears in the medical literature at least as far back as 1958. That's when a Denver-based surgeon named Ben Eiseman performed four of the procedures to rid patients of a form of colitis thought to be caused by C. diff. His plan was to administer "normal feces into the colon of patients with the disease," so as to "re-establish the balance of nature." Three of his four patients were near death before the fecal enema. After, they recovered. This small experiment suggested a "simple yet rational therapeutic method," Eiseman and his colleagues wrote, that deserved careful evaluation.
> 
> Now we're beginning to see some more extensive studies. Mark Mellow, a gastroenterologist at INTEGRIS Health in Oklahoma City, recently presented a paper showing that 15 out of 16 C. diff patients whom he'd provided with a fecal transplant remained disease-free after five months. Several other papers presented at the meeting showed similar positive effects, and in every case, symptoms disappeared almost immediately after the transplant.
> 
> Still, the evidence supporting fecal transplant comprises just about 20 published case reports involving about 200 patients. Until a large-scale, randomized trial is published in a big-name medical journal, most doctors will likely follow the example of the University of Toronto and hold off on performing the transplant. Indeed, relatively few gastroenterologists have even tried it. Colleen Kelly, a gastroenterologist at Women & Infants Hospital of Rhode Island, surveyed 72 gastroenterologists at a recent international medical meeting and found that only seven had performed the procedure. Nearly half said they'd be willing to perform a transplant on a sick patient, but the rest said they weren't ready yet. "I really think in another couple of years, it's going to be something that everyone's doing," said Kelly, who has performed the operation 22 times herself.
> 
> Infectious-disease experts are a little more tempered in their enthusiasm. According to Vincent Young of the University of Michigan, the data look promising but he wouldn't perform a fecal transplant himself because there are too many unknowns about what bad things might be lurking in a stool sample. William Schaffner, president of the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases, warned that the procedure is still in its early days and not yet ready for prime time. (The American College of Gastroenterology, for its part, has no official position on fecal transplants.)
> 
> But the true believers have even bigger plans. They hope fecal transplants might be used to treat other gut-related conditions, such as ulcerative colitis and even obesity. Some very overweight people, for example, are thought to have more of a certain type of bacteria in their intestines, which causes them extract extra calories from complex carbohydrates. With this in mind, researchers found that fat mice would lose weight if transplanted with feces from thin ones. Later, a team of Dutch researchers tried the same approach in humans: No one lost weight, but the fecal recipients did show a significant improvement in their ability to regulate insulin. (That study is under review and should be published in the next few months.)
> 
> For all its promise, it's unlikely fecal transplants will take off any time soon. Not because patients are grossed out by the procedure—in fact, doctors say that long-standing sufferers from C. diff are eager to have it done—but because there's so little funding for large-scale clinical trials. Drug or medical-device companies usually foot the bill for such research, but in the case of a natural, patent-free treatment like this, no company stands to turn a major profit. If anything, fecal transplants would end up costing the pharmaceutical companies money: A single pill of vancomycin—one of two antibiotics used to treat C. diff—costs about $55, and the average dose is four pills daily over a two-week stretch. A glass of shit, on the other hand, costs very little. That doesn't mean we'll never get the much-needed data: Lawrence Brandt, the gastroenterologist in the Bronx, is applying for a grant with the National Institutes of Health for a small, double-blind, controlled study. He says he'll need about 40 patients, and he's hoping to get started right away.


What do you guys think?  Would you ever try this?  Has anyone here tried it, and if so, what were the results?


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## glum chump

Hi Cat:

I am so desperate at this point to try to shift my Crohn's from severe to at least mild, that I would consider anything. I've been reading about fecal transplants for a while now and would most definitely consider it as an option. When I spoke to my GI about it over a year ago, he said that the science behind it was not secure enough for many GIs to be using it as a viable option. I know of a doctor in Calgary (which is about a two hour plane ride from where I live) who had been doing it and was trying to get in touch with him, but never heard back.

Recently, doctors from a local health authority near where I live were trying to push the health authority into allowing fecal transplants for those with CDiff who were not responding to antibiotic treatment. I am hopeful that these doctor's might be the ones who push other GIs into taking fecal transplants more seriously and consider doing it as a treatment option for patients with Crohn's.

At this point, I ain't got much to lose! My brother has already extolled the virtues of his BMs and seems to consider himself an ideal donor...based on our childhood and the amount of pleasurable time he spent in the bathroom, I don't doubt it!

Thanks for the article.


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## David in Seattle

Cat-a-Tonic said:


> I saw this article and just had to share.
> 
> http://www.slate.com/id/2282768/pagenum/all/#p2
> 
> 
> 
> What do you guys think?  Would you ever try this?  Has anyone here tried it, and if so, what were the results?


I've read a number of articles on this & I think it's an excellent idea.  I believe it was 1st tried in the late 1950's for C. Difficile.  I've also thought of the "DIY" approach, and I would be very willing to give that a try, if I had a good source of material.

The main factor limiting the technique is that, unlike expensive antibiotics, there is no well-heeled business interest which stands to profit, so study $$$ and promotion have been low.  Plus, I'm sure many would find it distasteful, though that's silly, IMO.  Again, I think it's a terrific, completely natural approach which, assuming clean feces are used (containing no harmful microorganisms, only beneficial ones), would be low cost and have virtually no down side.


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## tiloah

I would do it in a heartbeat if I thought I had the option. Even if it didn't work, the negative consequences of many of our other options don't seem to be as much of a concern. By this I mean there's no readily apparent down side.


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## spcwife23

i have an appointment with my gastro feb 1 im seriously thinking about asking if he does it


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## ameslouise

OMG.  Am I the only one who thinks this is absolutely disgusting?  I am nauseous right now even thinking about putting someone else's shit into my body.  I would try a lot of alternative treatments, but I'm just don't know about this one.

I guess if someone said, "This will 100% put you into remission with zero side effects" I would be right there putting a ziploc bag under my husband's ass.  But damn, it's still really gross. And I don't get grossed out easily at all!

- Amy


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## tiloah

http://www.slate.com/id/2282768/

My favorite part of the article:


> And then there's the do-it-yourself crowd. All you need is a bottle of saline, a 2-quart enema bag, and one standard kitchen blender. Mike Silverman, a University of Toronto physician who wrote up a guide to homespun fecal transplants for the journal Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology, says it's entirely safe to do the procedure this way, provided that a doctor gets involved at some point to screen the donor sample..


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## Ian

ameslouise said:


> I guess if someone said, "This will 100% put you into remission with zero side effects" I would be right there putting a ziploc bag under my husband's ass.
> 
> - Amy


LOL!

That is all


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## partlycloudy

> My brother has already extolled the virtues of his BMs and seems to consider himself an ideal donor...based on our childhood and the amount of pleasurable time he spent in the bathroom, I don't doubt it!


LOL, I busted out laughing at this. 

I'll tell ya one thing, it'd be a great story to gross your kids and family out with if you ever have the procedure done!


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## Eppie

\ shaking head about this one....I think it is worse than the intestinal worm treatment I heard about 10 years ago (google cd and heliminths). Or save your vom gag reflex and don't look it up. poo enemas sound too bizarre to be real.
Eppie


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## Piatchi

A standard kitchen blender. 

Uh huh. I make shakes with that thing


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## aliciars

Piatchi said:


> A standard kitchen blender.
> 
> Uh huh. I make shakes with that thing


Definitely be getting a new blender after that!  Ewwwwww.


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## KaLa

Wow!  That is really bizarre!!!


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## SwtNdSpcy

ameslouise said:


> OMG.  Am I the only one who thinks this is absolutely disgusting?  I am nauseous right now even thinking about putting someone else's shit into my body.  I would try a lot of alternative treatments, but I'm just don't know about this one.
> 
> I guess if someone said, "This will 100% put you into remission with zero side effects" I would be right there putting a ziploc bag under my husband's ass.  But damn, it's still really gross. And I don't get grossed out easily at all!
> 
> - Amy


My thoughts exactly!


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## Grumbletum

Lol! i wish I hadnt read this thread now - it's put me right off my breakfast. I don't think I could fact this without being knocked out for at least a week. But my symptoms are not as severe as many here and if it's going to work I can see why people would go for it. A very natural solution in a very unnatural sort of a way.


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## Sue-2009

Now I've heard it all!  The things we will do to get rid of this condition, just shows you how bad it really is!  S


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## Astra

Oh Dear God!
I'm sorry, but this is just so wrong!
What next? Drinking someone's vomit?
Puuurrrleeese!


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## Piatchi

I've read that this can be done during a scope. You would be out.

Come on folks, this forum talks about poop a lot to be grossed out by this procedure.
And what's worse? Somebody's recycled dinner from yesterday, or C. Difficile?  

Bob's recycled dinner, please.


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## Jer's Girl

I would so do this if it would work!


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## ameslouise

Too late for me!  "Road Closed!"


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## Jennjenn

When I was at the doctor the last time and a few of us were in a room getting our iron infusions this lady I saw there before started talking. She said that she had an ostomy for a while and they were discussing with her getting the reversal of which she wants. The doctor told her since it has been so long that getting the good bacteria back in her intestines is necessary and the above mentioned would be a good therapy for her. 

She made me laugh when she was describing the conversation with her doctor and her husband and herself in the room.....

The doctor told her that she would need someones fecal matter who lived in the house with her....she looked at her husband she said and his response was: 

What I thought you said this morning you were not going to take any more of my Sh*t!!! 
She had a lot of us laughing!! She did say she is willing to try anything to get that reversal and make it successful even if it meant having this done.


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## hawkeye

Apparently there is a hospital in  Toronto gearing up for a "randomized control trial" of the transplants in fighting c-diff according to this article - 

http://www.healthzone.ca/health/new...dy-before-you-pooh-pooh-the-idea-read-on?bn=1


Mark


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## scifi-enthusiast

I'm pondering how this would work for crohn's. Since crohn's is your immune system fighting the good micro-organisms in your body wouldn't it do the same thing once the organisms from the donor's body are introduced, or does your immune system not have enough time to react to the micro-organisms before they've already done their beneficial work. Or do the white blood cells from the donor's fecal matter also play a beneficial part for crohn's patient. I guess these questions are why the trials are needed.

I'm sorry but it just doesn't seem very logical for use in crohn's patients. Although an invisible matter (dark matter) that holds the galaxies together is not very logical either, but scientists know for a fact that it does exist in some way or form.


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## troydanielbecker

It looks to be for UC but not Crohn's.  And clinically most effective in treating c-diff (in the published research).

I guess I've gotten quite intimate with fecal matter over the past year--it doesn't seem bad to me.  Let the good poo teach the bad poo some manners.

The challenge, though, is not in the saying, but in the doing.  I hope to keep you posted on this one.

From the 2003 Borody Abstract: 

Treatment of ulcerative colitis using fecal bacteriotherapy.
Borody TJ, Warren EF, Leis S, Surace R, Ashman O.

Centre for Digestive Diseases, 144 Great North Rd, Five Dock NSW 2046, Australia. tborody@zip.com.au
Abstract
BACKGROUND: Although the etiology of idiopathic ulcerative colitis (UC) remains poorly understood, the intestinal flora is suspected to play an important role. Specific, consistent abnormalities in flora composition peculiar to UC have not yet been described, however Clostridium difficile colitis has been cured by the infusion of human fecal flora into the colon. This approach may also be applicable to the treatment of UC on the basis of restoration of flora imbalances.

GOAL: To observe the clinical, colonoscopic and histologic effects of human probiotic infusions (HPI) in 6 selected patients with UC.

CASE REPORTS: Six patients (3 men and 3 women aged 25-53 years) with UC for less than 5 years were treated with HPI. All patients had suffered severe, recurrent symptoms and UC had been confirmed on colonoscopy and histology. Fecal flora donors were healthy adults who were extensively screened for parasites and bacterial pathogens. Patients were prepared with antibiotics and oral polyethylene glycol lavage. Fecal suspensions were administered as retention enemas within 10 minutes of preparation and the process repeated daily for 5 days. By 1 week post-HPI some symptoms of UC had improved. Complete reversal of symptoms was achieved in all patients by 4 months post-HPI, by which time all other UC medications had been ceased. At 1 to 13 years post-HPI and without any UC medication, there was no clinical, colonoscopic, or histologic evidence of UC in any patient.

CONCLUSIONS: Colonic infusion of donor human intestinal flora can reverse UC in selected patients. These anecdotal results support the concept of abnormal bowel flora or even a specific, albeit unidentified, bacterial pathogen causing UC.


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## Mayflower537

I am with Amy on this one.  Yuck.


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## breesie

All I have to say is "YUCK!"   :thumbdown:


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## MADiMarc

I don't know, if I was suffering from C. Diff on top of the Crohn's, I think I might do it.  I have read several articles on this and in a gross way it really makes sense.


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## David

As far as I'm concerned, if they find a clinically proven way to reduce my pain without potential for serious side effects, they can shove whatever they want up there.  Fecal matter, apple pie, small robots, cheese whiz, explosive devices; I don't care, I'm game.  I've already had strangers' fingers, thumbs and a garden hose with a camera attached to it up there, so duct tape open my cheeks and let's go for it.  I'll bring the tape and vanilla ice cream if it's pie.


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## Cat-a-Tonic

David, too funny!  Now all I can picture is a tiny robot carrying pie and cheese whiz.    I'm totally with you, if that would make me feel better, I'm all for it.  I've pretty much already had a robot go through me anyway, if you consider that the pill cam is kind of like a tiny robot.


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## MADiMarc

Ha!  Y'all always make me laugh!  Yeah, bring on the cheese whiz!


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## billyjoel

Look, I know that poop is gross, but if it works why wouldn't anyone try this??  As long as the feces is disease free how are fecal transplants any stranger than blood transplants other than blood transfusions have been an integral part of medical treatment for some time now?


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## Igor_Passau

Patients With Bowel Disease Eager To Test "Fecal" Therapy

The first study of the social and ethical issues associated with a provocative approach to treatment for ulcerative colitis has found that the majority of potential patients are eager for what is now called "fecal microbiota transplantation" to become available, although many have concerns about donor selection, screening, and methods of delivery. 

Bacterial aggregates derived from fecal matter have been used sporadically to treat gastrointestinal disease for more than 50 years. These were often last-ditch efforts aimed at restoring microbial balance for patients with raging intestinal infections. More recently, the approach has produced lasting remissions for a small number of patients with a common disease: ulcerative colitis. 

"Once patients get past the yuck factor they find the concept appealing," said study author David Rubin, MD, associate professor of medicine at the University of Chicago. "They perceive it as 'natural,' similar to probiotics. Patients with severe inflammatory bowel disease tend to develop a high tolerance for therapies that others might consider unorthodox." 

Fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT)-also known as fecal bacteriotherapy, among other names-is an effort to calm a troubled bowel by reintroducing the vast diversity of collaborative bowel inhabitants after the usual mix has been disturbed. More than 1,000 different strains of bacteria co-exist peacefully in the typical healthy bowel. But when the delicate balance is altered, by antibiotics or other causes, a few strains can become dominant, leading to severe diarrhea, inflammation and tissue damage. 

The first FMT cases, dating back to 1958, were used to treat life-threatening infections caused by aggressive bacteria that had overwhelmed the bowel, driving out the competition. When antibiotics were unable to control the infection, physicians were able to restore balance by injecting the full range of gut bacteria. They did this by collecting fecal matter from a healthy donor and injecting it into the patient's colon. 

In 2003, a team led by Australian physician Thomas Borody published a report on successful treatment of six patients with longstanding ulcerative colitis with this approach. "Complete reversal of UC was achieved in all 6 patients following the infusion of human fecal flora," the authors reported. "These 6 cases document for the first time the total disappearance of chronic UC without the need for maintenance treatment." 

"This is a fascinating idea, and the early studies show great promise, but we found that no one had looked at the social issues surrounding fecal transplantation," said Rubin. "Before we offer this, we wanted to find out how patients understood the process and take a look at the ethical issues that could also be raised by this therapy." 
Like an organ transplant, fecal microbiota transplantation begins with finding a donor, often a family member. The treatment team collects a fresh stool sample, at least 200 to 300 grams. The sample is mixed with salt water in a blender and filtered to remove particulate matter. It can be administered to the recipient through a colonoscope, as an enema, or-when the inflamed region is higher in the colon-through a naso-gastric tube. 

Rubin and colleagues Stacy Kahn, MD, and Rita Gorawara-Bhat, PhD, organized six focus groups in 2009-2010 with patients or parents of children with ulcerative colitis to "explore the attitudes and concerns" raised by this approach. They published their findings in the June issue of the journal Inflammatory Bowel Disease. 

They found that 21 out of 22 patients or parents of patients were interested in trying FMT for themselves or their child; most wished it were already available. They viewed the treatment as more 'natural' than using drugs to control the disease, and easier and safer than currently available therapies. Many compared it to probiotics, a popular alternative therapy among patients with colitis. 

The major concerns were focused on how donors would be selected and screened. Patients wanted healthy donors, usually family members, and asked that even their diet and medications be considered. A donor who had eaten peanuts recently, for example could be hazardous for a recipient with peanut allergies. 

Physicians recommend a workup similar to that of an organ donor, with careful screening for multiple pathogens, including HIV, hepatitis and other viruses, as well as various parasites and worms. 

The "yuck" factor came up in the focus group discussions of bacterial delivery. Patients and parent were comfortable with the idea of a "spray" colonoscopy or delivery via enemas, but were disturbed by the idea of using a naso-gastric tube for the transfer of fecal bacteria, although this method has been used to treat Clostridium difficile infections. 

"What our study ultimately tells us is that patients are not only tolerant of this therapy but are eager for it to become available," Rubin said. "A few have already tried this strategy at home, using 'protocols' they found on the internet and tools available at any drug store." 

"We hope to begin offering FMT this fall," he said, "in a carefully controlled, clinical-trial setting." 

"We are getting at least one phone call a week from patients asking about the treatment and when we are going to start treating patients," said co-author Stacy Kahn, MD, instructor of pediatrics at the University of Chicago. 

There are many things we do not yet know about the risks and benefits of FMT, the authors agreed. The safety of such a treatment and broader implications of risk remain unconfirmed, so careful preparation and more study is necessary before this can be offered to patients with ulcerative colitis. 

"Many patients do benefit from proven traditional therapies," Rubin said, "which should always be considered before experimental treatments, no matter how attractive they may sound." 

The National Institutes of Health, the University of Chicago's Clinical and Translational Science Award, and the Gastrointestinal Research Foundation supported this study. 

Source: 
University of Chicago Medical Center 
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/227303.php


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## dephs

If they could do this for Crohn's, I would do it in a heartbeat. It's a little gross, but totally worth it if it just helps for a few months.


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## crohnicaly stinky

It seems so simple to me.  If you need the bacteria then a small amount of fecal matter could be used to grow more bacteria in some sort of solution and then inject that as an enema.    Maybe a poopfusion is just cheaper and easier.


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## lookame

Ugh I'm on the boat about this one...it's incredibly disgusting and I would probably vomet if I had to do it BUT if I suffered from terrible bouts of C Diff maybe it'd be worth it...sucks that there is no possible cure for crohns but UC has a few options if not limited and gross options at that...Crohns and I just have to make nice...you think if I apologize he'll accept it and calm down? What if I gave him all my lunch money???


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## Mountaingem

:ywow: I've had C. Diff three times in four years, and as for trying this....yeah, it's not gonna happen!


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## Jessica

I don't know what to think.  

All I know is that I'm laughing my ass off.  Somewhere between blenders and robots w/ apple pie.

Thank you for the smile today <3


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## chrisnsteph1022

There's definitely an ick factor to this, but I wouldn't rule it out if I had c.diff.


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## AndiGirl

I'll agree with many of the comments made.  Oh sick was my first reaction!


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## Mountaingem

I would be interested in learning how a person with Crohn's reacts to this treatment. UC is a different animal altogether. 

A friend of mine went into clinical trials for a treatment for Crohn's that involved large amounts of the "good bacteria"-like what you get in cultured food products but at a much higher controlled dose. He felt great initially but then developed a terrible infection, starting in the bowel and spreading to his bloodstream. He was hospitalized for two weeks for it.

The research doctors told him it's not just the nasty bacteria-c.diff, h.pylori, e.coli, etc that cause illness. Apparently even large amounts of good bacteria send a red flag to a Crohnnies' immune system. My friend had built antibodies to the new bacteria and because it was still being introduced it led to infection.

I take probiotics as well as eat large amounts of Greek yogurt and so far I haven't had c.diff return-even with taking high dose antibiotics, Methotrexate, and Remicade. Let's hope it keeps on working!


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## sunflower

I had C. diff. quite a few years ago.  I still remember how sick I was.  I can't say I wouldn't do just about anything to get rid of it, but I do think the colonoscopy spray or the enema would be more appealing than the naso-gastric tube.  YUCK!!

Can't they just grow that stuff, instead of having a fecal transplant.  That is the part that is the most yuck.


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## justus2

This has got to be a folk rumor, like waking up in an icy tub with a kidney gone...LOL


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## Bustersmom

Hey y'all, I'm trying this. It's day 4 today and all is well. I'm on the verge of having surgery and this is a last ditch effort to save my colon. What do I have to lose? So far it's going very well,  and yes its gross. But blood, 6 fistulas,2 abcesses with lots of pain and suffering is much grosser and it never ends. People who say they would never try it probably arent suffering much.. So, here we go.. I have Crohns and am hoping it works. Im doing it every day for 10 days then I'll do it three times a week for a month and then twice a week for a couple months. I'll keep you updated how I'm doing. Bree


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## David

Hi Bree!  Please do keep us updated!  If you're comfortable giving additional information, who is doing this for you?  Would you be open to sharing some of the methodology they're utilizing?

I pray it makes a positive difference for you.


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## crohnicaly stinky

Bree. Good luck to you!  Thank you for sharing your experience.  I hope it works for you.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## Johnnysmom

My G.I. is doing a study on this.  He has not talked to us about it because my son so far has responded to conventional treatment but my friend's son is enrolling in the study.  His case has been refractory so far and they have exhausted treatment options.  His dad will be the donor.  I am keeping in contact with her about his condition and will let you guys know what happens.  My G.I. is Dr. Kunde in Grand Rapids Michigan at Helen DeVos Children's hospital.  He is doing this study in pediatric patients.  I think there are some real breakthroughs coming for Crohn's glad you guys are here to share.  

Tiffany


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## Terriernut

Well, I'm alll FOR this!!!!  I hope it works for you!  Please do keep us updated.

After all, you have plenty to lose and alot to gain.  If it works, fabulous!


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## Bustersmom

Well, I'm on day five of transplants . Everything is going great. I had been on flagyl and cipro for 10 days then five more of Flagyl. It wasn't to prepare for this, it was because I was a total mess, I have 3 abcesses and several fistula that I know of. A huge absecess came up 4 days after starting the antibiotics. It has been getting bigger bleeding and very sore throughout taking the  antibiotics. Lots of blood & ect. Been off antibiotics 2 weeks before starting transplant. Today I'm a LOT less sore, less blood, abcesses is smaller and less sore! I cried for a half hour. Just happiness... I feel like there's hope. Too soon to know for sure if this is working. I'll keep posting my progress. Please feel free to contact me. Bree


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## Bernie1986

My boyfriend thinks I'm weird now I've just asked him to keep some of he's poo by for me / If its anything like the red on white wine thing then I want to give it a go? Lol xx


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## MADiMarc

Oh, Bree I'm so happy for you!!  I hope it works wonders.  Keep us in the loop because if it does work, my husband will be pooping into a ziplock bag soon!  Hell, I tried everything else!


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## izzi'smom

Best of luck, Bree, and do keep up posted. My doc just mentioned this yesterday (not that he has done it, but someone else has asked him to look into it). Can't wait to hear more!


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## Terriernut

I hope that this works for you Bree!!! :dance:


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## Ellie1

This guy is one of my gastroenterologists, we fly up to Sydney to see him. He told us that they've just found that 98% (I think, more than they originally thought) of people with Ulcerative Colitis can be cured with long term infusions (They used to do it for a week then give up). I'm probably going through with this soon, it might be my only chance to do well in Year 12!

Some people find this treatment repulsive, but I don't, I'm in too much pain to really care or wait for the capsule to be developed.


----------



## Bustersmom

Today I'll do number 7 infusion this morning. Last night had cramping and more gas,  nothing horrible . but things are happening. Bacteria battles. I'm planning on doing this ten days, then every other day for quite a while. I sure want to keep my bad bacteria from coming back. My biggest abcesses is going away. It's not painful now and is shrinking. I'm still seeing a fair amount of blood. It's very itchy down there, but no pain.  I think it's going to be several weeks before there is real progress. The new bacteria has to repopulate. I feel like this is working, but I have no idea how long it's going to take. I think even when everything seems all well I'm still going to do it a few times a week. Bree


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## Miss Gypsy

Bree, thank you so much for posting updates on this! To me, the ick factor is really outweighed by the promise of long-term remission or even a cure. Please keep updating and I will keep my fingers crossed for you!


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## MADiMarc

Bree, glad to hear the abscess is going away, or at least the pain of it is.  I am so hoping this works for you!


----------



## BBACK12

Thanks for sharing! I have heard ALOT about this procedure, especially from having c-diff on and off for 3 years prior to being diagnosed with Crohns, I've heard ALOT about this procedure and know lots of info on it.  I have known many people who have had this procedure and it was a life saving thing! Good luck!


----------



## Bustersmom

Today is the 10th day. I've been  doing the transplant every day. Everything is still great. My bleeding has completely stopped!!  Abcesses is still getting smaller. Not sore anymore. I couldn't sit down before. I'm  Still having a little pain in the rectal area. That was the worst area and will probably be the last to clear up. Having some gas. Nothing painful. Lots of  Stomach noises. My energy level is way up! I went places Saturday and Sunday and didn't get tired out untill later in the day. I haven't felt this good in 6 months! I think this is really working. In a few weeks if everything heals up I'll know for sure.  Bree


----------



## MADiMarc

Yeah!


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## Ian

Great news Bree, hope it continues this way for you! Seeing the abcess shrink must be a great visual for your for monitoring your progress - kinda proves it's not just a placebo effect you're experiening! Keep us posted .


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## flowergirl

i would totally do this. and it really makes sense, at least in my case. mine started only in my mouth during a round of antibiotics. then i started taking craploads of probiotics to counteract the antibiotics, and i think between the 2 it completely messed me up. i think the antibiotics wiped out all the good, and my gut just looked at the probiotics as "foreign". seems like if i could just get some normal repopulation down there it would probably do me some good. can't wait to hear about bree's(?) progress.


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## Bustersmom

Well, I'm still doing great!! One giant infected abcess is nearly gone. It's pea sized now!  There's another one that was really infected with new fistula in rectal area and its getting smaller and much less painful. Blood is much less. The main difference i notice is how good I feel! I'm going to keep this up untill everything is healed. Then I'm going to do it 2 or 3 times a week. Not real sure how long I'll do it. I figure that the crohns is probably so deep in those fistulas and abcesses. It may take the good bacteria a while to get in there. Anyway, this is better than the alternative. I really feel my health returning again!!! Bree


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## crohnicaly stinky

Bree,  are you doing this on your own or is your doctor doing the transplants?  Who is the donor?  Glad you are feeling better!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## MADiMarc

Okay, I'm so on board with this!  I must find a local doctor that will do this.  My husband will actually get a kick out of me asking for some of his s*#t!


----------



## David

If I can't find a doctor I'm going to need a new blender and turkey baster.


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## MADiMarc

David said:


> If I can't find a doctor I'm going to need a new blender and turkey baster.


Ha!  The visions now in my brain!


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## Bustersmom

I'm doing this totally on my own. My hubby of 30 years is the donor. It's a really good idea to get your potential doner tested for hepatitis c and other things. Tell your doctor your going to do this and he can help you with the tests. This is really dangerous like getting a blood transfusion. If there's something latent they have, you will have it too. My doner I've been married to 35 years so I'm pretty sure we have all the same diseases now. Anyway, with all that said, i use the larger size fleet enema kit , I pour out the laxative contents and make my own saline. It's One quart water add  one tablespoon salt and boil 10 minutes. I make a few quarts at a time and put it in an empty water  bottle. I also use distilled water for now. I warm up the water I use so it's a little warm. Cold would cause cramps. After the procedure I lay still for I full hour, I do this every day at 11 AM. There's no way I could afford to get this done by a doctor every day. Although doing some of these by way of a colonoscope would work best. I am desperate right now and so far it's paying off. Too soon to know for sure what the outcome will be. I'm cautious about getting overly optimistic. I think the way things are going, I'll be healed up in two weeks!  Please message me if you want. Bree


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## MADiMarc

Bree, I am so hopeful for you!  No, I agree having a doctor do this everyday would be foolishly expensive.  Like you, I have been married for many years (27).  Yeah, Joe and I would have all the same disease by now also!  

I am going to speak with my doctor.  I figure I've tried just about everything else short of surgery.  I will message you to get specifics (you don't have to answer, I know it's personal) after I speak with my doc.  I guess I need to ask my hubby nicely to participate first though!


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## Bustersmom

I told my husband he's helping to maybe cure me. Hes so incredibly healthy. I hope I can get some of that health for myself. Hey another thing I forgot to mention. Don't drink city water. Buy spring water. You won't want chlorine killing off any good bacteria your growing. Please message me any time. Nothing's too personal. Maybe we can help each other and maybe even get more doctors to take notice if this works. Bree


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## Bustersmom

Ok, been well over a month now. Down to every other day right now I'm doing Fantastic!! Abcesses healed. They itched like crazy for a while. Now the sore lumps are completely healed! No pain whatsoever. Energy is back!!! I'm not even thinking about a colostomy now! This needs to be researched!  I was a total mess and have the MRI to prove it. I'm so hopeful about this!!!! Bree


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## David

WOW!  That's absolutely amazing.  I'm so happy for you 

Do you know specifically where your Crohn's is located?  Is it just in the colon or do you have disease activity in the ileum/terminal ileum as well?

Have you been back to a doctor recently or plan to go to one soon for a checkup and to see what they think?


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## Terriernut

:dance:
I hope you do plan on being checked out again as David says.  Personally, I'd like to see their faces if you can present them with a crohns free (or as close as possible) colonoscopy.


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## Bustersmom

When I was first diagnosed with Crohns it was in the Ileum also. It was all the way in my mouth!  When I flare it goes everywhere. It was much worse in the lower bowel area. Ive had fissures, abcesses, and have had fistulas for years. Had a failed surgery. I don't know why my doctor thought fixing my rect/vag fistula was a good idea. It came right back. I'm going back to my doctor for a colonoscopy soon. Probably in a few weeks. Of coarse I'm dreading that prep!!  I wanted  to get as well as possible before I go. He's going to be Amazed!  Bree


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## Miss Underestimated

Fantastic! Here's hoping you make history!! Someone will be figuring out how to market shit!!   :rof:


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## Igor_Passau

Instruction: 

http://webfile.ru/5793304


----------



## SignorSteve

Hi Bree,
So glad your doing so well with this treatment.
I saw an article this week on the subject and thought I'd see if anyone on here had tried it and BAM! there you are. 
I myself have crohns and suffer from bleeding everyday, sometimes really badly.
Im wondering...what kind of diet have you been on while doing this? 

Thanks
Steve


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## Jobell

I am a little stupefied. Can't decide if this is a brilliant, natural new treatment option, or the grossest thing I have ever imagined. And I have seen lots of gross in my life.
Got to thank everyone who posted on this thread initially; I haven't laughed so hard in weeks!!! Literally laughed so loud my kids wondered what was wrong with me. (well, my teenagers always wonder that anyway).


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## Bustersmom

Yes, it is the grossest thing. LOL!! I have to agree!  I have a system worked out where it's not bad at all.  It wasn't perfect at first. It was trial and error. A little messy... But this disease is pretty messy too! So the cure might be messy. And I look at it as "real" probiotics. I've been dealing with other worst issues for years. Most of you know how much suffering is involved. But this is healing me up! Im about 75% healed now. Still have a very small lump that was a huge abcesses, the other one is completely gone! . Draining has stopped. It's Awesome! I wake up every day feeling great,  with so much energy! I've started walking on the treadmill every day again!  I just want to see about joining a study or something really useful. Instead of just helping myself. Bree


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## Bustersmom

I'm not really on any special diet. Im not eating any junk food. I'm juicing organic vegetables like carrots & kale, beets. Tastes awful to me but it's really healthy. I'm steaming vegetables. Not drinking anything but spring water. I think that's important if your trying to rebuild your good bacteria not to drink Chlorinated water. Bree


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## SignorSteve

Inspiring stuff Bree, really glad you're taking to it well.
Good thinking re the water. Think I'll buy spring water asap.
I dont suppose you have/will be posting about the process in full?
I'd love to know every step you've taken as you seem to have started in a similar position to what Im in now.

Steve


----------



## doctor's mom

Jennjenn said:


> The doctor told her that she would need someones fecal matter who lived in the house with her....she looked at her husband she said and his response was:
> 
> What I thought you said this morning you were not going to take any more of my Sh*t!!!
> She had a lot of us laughing!! She did say she is willing to try anything to get that reversal and make it successful even if it meant having this done.


that made my day!


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## doctor's mom

How about shit banks? why not to make a fecal suppositories? AstraZeneca can help...


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## Terriernut

Theres certainly enough 'bull' around for that kinda bank! :ylol:


----------



## Miss Underestimated

Hahahaha!!


----------



## Cat-a-Tonic

I just had to share this - one of the local hospitals in my city just started offering fecal transplants!  Here's the article:

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_14ff0ae4-b320-11e1-b725-001a4bcf887a.html

There are 3 hospitals here, and unfortunately this is one that isn't covered by my insurance, but nonetheless it's still exciting stuff that it's happening locally.  I haven't had c diff myself (knock on wood) but from this article, it sounds like this is a really promising c diff treatment.


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## kiny

The thing I don't quite understand about these methods is that in essence, doing antibiotics which tends to kill off a whole bunch of bacteria, both good and bad, and then adding probiotics, should essentially provide something similar to this. Maybe this method is easier, faster, cheaper? Not sure, but this looks a lot like what doctors have been doing for a while, you give a patient antibiotics which tends to disrupt the gut flora (some antibiotics do this better than others, augmentin does this very well for example) and then you use probiotics right after.


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## BBACK12

kiny said:


> The thing I don't quite understand about these methods is that in essence, doing antibiotics which tends to kill off a whole bunch of bacteria, both good and bad, and then adding probiotics, should essentially provide something similar to this. Maybe this method is easier, faster, cheaper? Not sure, but this looks a lot like what doctors have been doing for a while, you give a patient antibiotics which tends to disrupt the gut flora (some antibiotics do this better than others, augmentin does this very well for example) and then you use probiotics right after.


Kiny, I see what you're saying.  For some, the probiotics isn't enough.  I've had c-diff on and off for three years, and I'm actually considering the fecal transplant myself because some studies have shown it has a greater benefit to those whose bacteria gets completely wiped out over and over. This does sound gross, but when someone is desperate they'll do it.  I got my c-diff from Amoxcillin, never ever again do I want to take antibiotics!!! :hallo3:


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## pungineer

I should clarify that I don't have Crohns, but my son (and brother in law and nephew) does.

I followed this thread and am anxious to try fmt, but no one has posted for a while and would really like to know how Bustersmom is doing and if anyone else has tried FMT for Crohns.


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## Igor_Passau

if you have CD this will not help. I found two Russian they have CD and done this procedure at home. Negative effect!!! in russian (http://kronportal.ru/forum/showthre...ht=%F2%F0%E0%ED%F1%EF%EB%E0%ED%F2%E0%F6%E8%FF)


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## Igor_Passau

but for other cases this work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDcia_uqf3k&feature=related


----------



## Igor_Passau

but it could be beneficial for UC


Researchers Find Fecal Microbiota Transplantation Effective For Treatment of IBD 

With the growing success of fecal transplantation for C. difficile, researchers have started to explore the effectiveness of this procedure for other serious conditions, such as Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD). A second study, "Reversal of Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD) with Recurrent Fecal Microbiota Transplants (FMT)," reports successful treatment of severe mixed IBD using recurrent fecal microbiota transplants in three patient cases. 

In Case 1, a 19-year old female with an 11-year history of severe IBD and who presented with worsening symptoms including bloody diarrhea and inflamed, ulcerated mucosa , and was considering a colectomy, experienced symptom improvement within several days after receiving FMT. She underwent FMT initially via colonoscopy in July 2009 then by seven daily rectal FMT and 26 weekly FMT's. Follow-up colonoscopy revealed no gross inflammation or edema, with the patient remaining clinically well. 

In Case 2, a 23- year old male with a five-year history of steroid and anti-TNFα refractory ulcerative colitis presented with bloody diarrhea more than 20 times per day, anal fissures, severe abdominal pain and joint pain. Pre-FMT colonoscopy - showed severe disease of the left colon with marked cecal inflammation. He underwent daily rectal FMT for the first month, followed by infusions of lessening frequency until he reached 1 FMT/6 weeks. He reported resolution of bleeding 1-2 weeks post-FMT, and formed stool at 1 month post-FMT, resumed work, study activities and regained weight. Colonoscopy at one year showed no histological inflammation but occasional pseudopolyps in the cecum and ascending colon. 

In Case 3, a 57-year old female with a nine- year history of 5-ASA antibiotics, probiotics and immunosuppressant refractory ulcerative proctitis in spite of treatment. After training in our clinic, she performed 69, initially daily, then weekly rectal FMT with virtually immediate resolution of diarrhea, bleeding and mucus. Follow-up colonoscopy showed no visible or histological inflammation and she has remained off all therapy for the last four years. 

FMT may act as an antagonist to etiological infective agent(s) and aid in re-establishing depleted bacterial species, thereby reversing IBD, according to researchers from the Centre for Digestive Diseases in Australia. 

Commenting on the cases of FMT in IBD, lead researcher Thomas Borody, MD, PhD, FACG, said, "the rapid response of FMT and lack of adverse effects make FMT a viable option for treatment-refractory patients and is certainly an added option for those facing colectomy." 


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/236885.php


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## Igor_Passau

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKu2EAasU3g&feature=related
http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2007/12/17/fecal-transplants-to-cure-clos/


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## Igor_Passau

Patients With Bowel Disease Eager To Test "Fecal" Therapy

The *first study* of the social and ethical issues associated with a provocative approach to treatment for *ulcerative colitis* has found that the majority of potential patients are eager for what is now called "f*ecal microbiota transplantation*" to become available, although many have concerns about donor selection, screening, and methods of delivery. 

Bacterial aggregates derived from fecal matter have been used sporadically to treat gastrointestinal disease for more than 50 years. These were often last-ditch efforts aimed at restoring microbial balance for patients with raging intestinal infections. More recently, the approach has produced lasting remissions for a small number of patients with a common disease: ulcerative colitis. 

"Once patients get past the yuck factor they find the concept appealing," said study author David Rubin, MD, associate professor of medicine at the University of Chicago. "They perceive it as 'natural,' similar to probiotics. Patients with severe inflammatory bowel disease tend to develop a high tolerance for therapies that others might consider unorthodox." 

Fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT)-also known as fecal bacteriotherapy, among other names-is an effort to calm a troubled bowel by reintroducing the vast diversity of collaborative bowel inhabitants after the usual mix has been disturbed. More than 1,000 different strains of bacteria co-exist peacefully in the typical healthy bowel. But when the delicate balance is altered, by antibiotics or other causes, a few strains can become dominant, leading to severe diarrhea, inflammation and tissue damage. 

The first FMT cases, dating back to 1958, were used to treat life-threatening infections caused by aggressive bacteria that had overwhelmed the bowel, driving out the competition. When antibiotics were unable to control the infection, physicians were able to restore balance by injecting the full range of gut bacteria. They did this by collecting fecal matter from a healthy donor and injecting it into the patient's colon. 

In 2003, a team led by Australian physician Thomas Borody published a report on successful treatment of six patients with longstanding ulcerative colitis with this approach. "Complete reversal of UC was achieved in all 6 patients following the infusion of human fecal flora," the authors reported. "These 6 cases document for the first time the total disappearance of chronic UC without the need for maintenance treatment." 

"This is a fascinating idea, and the early studies show great promise, but we found that no one had looked at the social issues surrounding fecal transplantation," said Rubin. "Before we offer this, we wanted to find out how patients understood the process and take a look at the ethical issues that could also be raised by this therapy." 

Like an organ transplant, fecal microbiota transplantation begins with finding a donor, often a family member. The treatment team collects a fresh stool sample, at least 200 to 300 grams. The sample is mixed with salt water in a blender and filtered to remove particulate matter. It can be administered to the recipient through a colonoscope, as an enema, or-when the inflamed region is higher in the colon-through a naso-gastric tube. 

Rubin and colleagues Stacy Kahn, MD, and Rita Gorawara-Bhat, PhD, organized six focus groups in 2009-2010 with patients or parents of children with ulcerative colitis to "explore the attitudes and concerns" raised by this approach. They published their findings in the June issue of the journal Inflammatory Bowel Disease. 

They found that 21 out of 22 patients or parents of patients were interested in trying FMT for themselves or their child; most wished it were already available. They viewed the treatment as more 'natural' than using drugs to control the disease, and easier and safer than currently available therapies. Many compared it to probiotics, a popular alternative therapy among patients with colitis. 

The major concerns were focused on how donors would be selected and screened. Patients wanted healthy donors, usually family members, and asked that even their diet and medications be considered. A donor who had eaten peanuts recently, for example could be hazardous for a recipient with peanut allergies. 

Physicians recommend a workup similar to that of an organ donor, with careful screening for multiple pathogens, including HIV, hepatitis and other viruses, as well as various parasites and worms. 

The "yuck" factor came up in the focus group discussions of bacterial delivery. Patients and parent were comfortable with the idea of a "spray" colonoscopy or delivery via enemas, but were disturbed by the idea of using a naso-gastric tube for the transfer of fecal bacteria, although this method has been used to treat Clostridium difficile infections. 

"What our study ultimately tells us is that patients are not only tolerant of this therapy but are eager for it to become available," Rubin said. "A few have already tried this strategy at home, using 'protocols' they found on the internet and tools available at any drug store." 

"We hope to begin offering FMT this fall," he said, "in a carefully controlled, clinical-trial setting." 

"We are getting at least one phone call a week from patients asking about the treatment and when we are going to start treating patients," said co-author Stacy Kahn, MD, instructor of pediatrics at the University of Chicago. 

There are many things we do not yet know about the risks and benefits of FMT, the authors agreed. The safety of such a treatment and broader implications of risk remain unconfirmed, so careful preparation and more study is necessary before this can be offered to patients with ulcerative colitis. 

"Many patients do benefit from proven traditional therapies," Rubin said, "which should always be considered before experimental treatments, no matter how attractive they may sound." 

The National Institutes of Health, the University of Chicago's Clinical and Translational Science Award, and the Gastrointestinal Research Foundation supported this study. 

Source: 
University of Chicago Medical Center 
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/227303.php


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## Bustersmom

Hi everyone! As some of you know from my old posts I've been doing the transplants quite a while. I do have crohns. And it DOES work! Between the transplants and LDN I'm doing fantastic.  Im going to write more about this later.


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## Igor_Passau

illusion!
I was on LDN! Nothing help! 
My friends with CD try this fecal transplants  - intensification


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## wildbill_52280

Bustersmom said:


> Hi everyone! As some of you know from my old posts I've been doing the transplants quite a while. I do have crohns. And it DOES work! Between the transplants and LDN I'm doing fantastic.  Im going to write more about this later.


according to your posts, you have been doing this for about 6 months now, going on 7. In the most recent experiment done by borody on mixed ibd cases
one patient was reported to have done weekly enemas for about six months.
how long do you think you have to do this before the results will stick?


http://www.cdd.com.au/pdf/publicati...American College of Gastroenterology p741.pdf


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## pungineer

I think it depends on the donor. Generally, I think the father might be the best donor for his children because they usually get their biome from their mother, but half of their genes are from their father. The same might be true for a husband for a woman who has had children because her immune system might have made changes during pregnancy. The reverse could be true as well.

Since not everyone has the same biome, it could take multiple donors to find the right one. There are still too many unknowns. At least, except for the testing, it is inexpensive to try. If there were an on line registry it might help sort out what does or does not work, at least for familial relationships.


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## Canadagirl

thanks for all the great posts. i've read about the transplants and UC - anybody have any personal experiences to share? 
looking into this for a family member but want to know more, if it's as effective as it is with c. diff.
THANK YOU!!!


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## kiny

Canadagirl said:


> t
> looking into this for a family member but want to know more, if it's as effective as it is with c. diff.


not at all, in c difficile it works, but it's easy in c difficile, all you need is a flora without c difficile

in crohn you for it to help you would a gut flora that is IL-10 biased where you would lower inflammation through it, and they know so little about gut flora still, many bacteria don't survive in the environment, they can't tolerate the environment we live in, expose them to air and they die, they have no clue whatsoever what bacteria are in the gut flora, that's why the human microbiome project exists, before they know what is exactly needed to stop the inflammatory cascade and before they know if commensals are even involved (which they don't), fecal transplants is like shooten a dart blindfolded

for c difficile it's different, all you need is a gut flora from someone without c difficile


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## steve55

If anyone is looking for a dr who does the procedure, I contacted Dr Shepard in Tampa FL and he is doing the procedure for many patients, C-diff, Crohn's and Colitis. I think he only does it via colonoscopy but am not 100% sure. This would matter more to Crohn's patients who would need the transplant to reach higher up. When I emailed him, he said you can either bring a donor or he can supply one.

http://tampaendocenter.com/physicians/r-david-shepard-md

My googling has also led me to GI Consultants in Reno Nevada. I never contacted them but it appears that they are just doing C Diff.

http://www.giconsultants.com/procedures/fecal-transplantation/

I myself am seeing Dr. Brandt in NY who is one of the pioneers together with Dr Borody. He is hard to get an appointment with because he is so in demand. I will be doing the procedure daily for 10 days via nasogastric tube for crohn's of the Jejunum and Ileum probably in early December. I will post to let the group know if its a success. 

Based on my discussions with Dr Brandt, this has not been done extensively for Crohn's. He has treated 3 or 4 Crohn's patients though such patients had whats called Crohn's Colitis. It appears to be fair game as to whether this will work for Crohn's. My thinking is that Crohn's will need a more aggresive course of treatment which is why I wanted to set up treatment in this manner. The dr agreed but its still unchartered territory.


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## Moe.

Good luck with it. 
Borody has done a few tests on crohns colitis and its been pretty successfull in reversing the damage in some. Ive seen the pictures in his office and it looks pretty good. Though I have never seen one done like you have stated. Is it targeting the small intestine??


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## Canadagirl

If anyone is looking for a dr who does the procedure, I contacted Dr Shepard in Tampa FL and he is doing the procedure for many patients, C-diff, Crohn's and Colitis. 

when you mention Colities, does dr. shepard specifically treat ulcerative colitis??


----------



## Canadagirl

[QUOTE  steve55]If anyone is looking for a dr who does the procedure, I contacted Dr Shepard in Tampa FL and he is doing the procedure for many patients, C-diff, Crohn's and Colitis. 

when you mention Colities, does dr. shepard specifically treat ulcerative colitis??


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## steve55

Yes, I believe he does. Email him via his website if you have questions for him.


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## steve55

Moe, yes it will be targeting the small intestine.


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## Moe.

Wow good luck and let me know how it goes. 
I really hope it works. There are a few people who had it done for uc and have had
No symptoms for 13,


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## steve55

I am hopeful and perhaps this can be the beginning of something big, for the many sufferers of autoimmune diseases. Who knew poop could be the miracle drug of the 21st century.


----------



## tichard

Are you still feeling good?


Bustersmom said:


> Today is the 10th day. I've been  doing the transplant every day. Everything is still great. My bleeding has completely stopped!!  abscesses is still getting smaller. Not sore anymore. I couldn't sit down before. I'm  Still having a little pain in the rectal area. That was the worst area and will probably be the last to clear up. Having some gas. Nothing painful. Lots of  Stomach noises. My energy level is way up! I went places Saturday and Sunday and didn't get tired out untill later in the day. I haven't felt this good in 6 months! I think this is really working. In a few weeks if everything heals up I'll know for sure.  Bree


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## M30

Bustersmom said:


> Well, I'm on day five of transplants . Everything is going great. I had been on flagyl and cipro for 10 days then five more of Flagyl. It wasn't to prepare for this, it was because I was a total mess, I have 3 abscesses and several fistula that I know of. A huge absecess came up 4 days after starting the antibiotics. It has been getting bigger bleeding and very sore throughout taking the  antibiotics. Lots of blood & ect. Been off antibiotics 2 weeks before starting transplant. Today I'm a LOT less sore, less blood, abscesses is smaller and less sore! I cried for a half hour. Just happiness... I feel like there's hope. Too soon to know for sure if this is working. I'll keep posting my progress. Please feel free to contact me. Bree


I teared up when I read this. Still reading the thread but I pray it continues to work for you.


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## M30

I am crying with joy right now reading this. 

Just the thought that there is hope.

I'm not sure where I will begin in researching this but since I'm facing the prospect of surgery, I will do anything, even drink the shit if I have to. 

Someone pinch me. Hope is an amazing thing.

<3


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## Bustersmom

Its been a while since i've updated how im doing. Ive had a health issue going on lately. I haven't done the FT for several months, been doing very well no crohns, D, no trouble except some occational pain on my left side. Well, it flared up and turned out to be diverticulitus! The most painful thing ive ever experienced. Went into the hospital got  iV's with cipro and flagyl for a few days.,i went back to doing the FT for a while. I was afraid my crohns might return after taking all those antibiotics. So far everythings great. Bree


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## wildbill_52280

Bustersmom said:


> Its been a while since i've updated how im doing. Ive had a health issue going on lately. I haven't done the FT for several months, been doing very well no crohns, D, no trouble except some occational pain on my left side. Well, it flared up and turned out to be diverticulitus! The most painful thing ive ever experienced. Went into the hospital got  iV's with cipro and flagyl for a few days.,i went back to doing the FT for a while. I was afraid my crohns might return after taking all those antibiotics. So far everythings great. Bree


That sounds great!! except for the diverticulitis. i was wondering what was your diet like during the fecal transplants? and what is it like now?

Also, do you think you may have developed diverticulitis from transplanting from your donor?

thanks!


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## Bustersmom

I'm currently doing the FMT again. I currently am eating a low fiber diet because of the pain as food passes by my inflamed colon. I'm getting a colonoscopy next week so I'll update what they find. I feel like the fmt really helps heal the lower colon very well. But I think a colonoscopy delivery would work much better. I've thought seriously of traveling to Florida or California to try it. I think probiotics are great to take, but nothing can take the place of real human probiotics. If you do try this yourself, expect gas, bloating at first. All the probiotics are foreign invaders to your colon. After a while, a week or two, the bacteria seems to be adapted to your own, at least that's what I think. I did have two large abscesses heal in two weeks and I had two fistulas close. Which is unbelievable! I haven't had a bit of problem down there since the FMT. Now the trouble is higher up on the left side under my ribs. A CT scan shows diverticulitus, I think I've had it a long time. I'll update on the colonoscopy results . Bree


----------



## rollinstone

Glad your doing well please keep us posted


----------



## wildbill_52280

Bustersmom said:


> I'm currently doing the FMT again. I currently am eating a low fiber diet because of the pain as food passes by my inflamed colon. I'm getting a colonoscopy next week so I'll update what they find. I feel like the fmt really helps heal the lower colon very well. But I think a colonoscopy delivery would work much better. I've thought seriously of traveling to Florida or California to try it. I think probiotics are great to take, but nothing can take the place of real human probiotics. If you do try this yourself, expect gas, bloating at first. All the probiotics are foreign invaders to your colon. After a while, a week or two, the bacteria seems to be adapted to your own, at least that's what I think. I did have two large abscesses heal in two weeks and I had two fistulas close. Which is unbelievable! I haven't had a bit of problem down there since the FMT. Now the trouble is higher up on the left side under my ribs. A CT scan shows diverticulitus, I think I've had it a long time. I'll update on the colonoscopy results . Bree


It is recommended when doing fecal transplants to consume a high fiber diet. only in the beginning before the transplants begin, during the antibiotics, are the patients advised to follow a low fiber diet, specifically to discourage ALL bacterial growth, the antibiotic course is meant to lower all bacteria so that they may be more easily replaced by the transplants. The good bacteria use fiber, mainly fibers classified as soluble, to ferment and to grow. The volume/bulk of a bowel movement is basically, the result of proper fermentation. it is the products of fermentation like the short chain fatty acids which can drive out the bad bacteria and are anti-inflammatory/control the inflammatory response.

A major issue with the enema route of a transplant is that you are using someone elses BM which is at the end stage of fermentation, and most or all of the soluble fibers that encouraged growth may have been utilized. So when it is now introduced to your colon, there isnt much encouragement for the new bacteria to grow and once again dominate its niche within the community, of course this is somewhat theoretical but based on science. I also believe your donor should be on a high fiber diet as well, to encourage the numbers of good bacteria that you need, to also dominate in their flora, all of which, may make the transplant much more effective, theoretically. even without doing any of this you will likely have results but do you really want to do 30-60 fecal enemas? personally id rather do 10 and be done with it. Good luck!!


----------



## Andrea_3

Yes hilarious as well as shocking, I just came across this and had a good laugh over the comment of the husband telling his wife "thought you said you weren't going to take anymore of my shit"LOL:rof: However, I would do this in a heartbeat! Its not like you're eating it. You have poop in you as it is. Whats the difference? Would just be going into the same place as the rest! and if it has a high rate of curing. I wouldn't even think twice about it!


----------



## Hope345

Andrea, i totally agree.  We have this one on the list of possibilities for our daughter.  

Right now I want to try Kefir.  I think it is the same idea: introduce good bacteria into the gut.   It may take a little longer, and I heard you have to introduce them slowly into the system.   

I wouldnt think twice about it either.    Let me know if you do it.


----------



## xmdmom

I read this paragraph a while ago and found it a little creepy.
"Possible Other Consequences of Fecal Transplant
What other traits might be transmitted with a fecal transplant?
Obviously, lifestyle, personal behavior, and sense of wellbeing
are dependent on regularity, but other behavioral changes
may also. For example, the composition of the gut flora in
Drosophila is influenced by diet, as in humans, and transfer of
the gut flora to germ-free recipients also transferred the mating
preferences of the flies, whereas antibiotic treatment of the flies
caused them to lose their mating preferences.12 Human gut flora
also may determine our appetites, scent, and possibly moods
(reviewed in13)."  -K Rosenthal article (Infect Dis Clin Pract 2011;19: 276Y278) entitled
Fecal Transplants Transfer More Than Microbiota

Abstract: Fecal transplants are being used to repopulate the colon
as a treatment for antibiotic-associated chronic diarrhea. In addition
to treating the diarrhea, the transferred microbiota carries functions
that affect the metabolism, immune system, and potentially, the behavior
of the recipient. Screening of fecal donors may be just as necessary as
screening organ donors to ensure that unwanted traits are not transferred
with the transplant.
Key Words: fecal transplant, obesity, metabolic syndrome,
autoimmunity, immunotolerance


Something to think about anyhow...


----------



## crohnicaly stinky

The below sentence came from the linked article talking about nitrates fueling bad bacteria in IBD patients.

"This also may be why stool transplants or super probiotics (containing huge and diverse amounts of bacteria) may be needed to overwhelm what is going on in the colon, and to re-establish the balance quickly."


http://blog.brendawatson.com/general/dysbiosis-in-ibd-nitrates-the-culprit/


----------



## kiny

Igor_Passau said:


> illusion!
> I was on LDN! Nothing help!
> My friends with CD try this fecal transplants  - intensification


Wouldn't surprise me if this worsened crohn's disease.

There is no evidence this works, there is no reason for me to believe why a fecal transplant would work for CD. You're giving an unknown amount of bacteria to someone without any knowledge of what bacteria are present and without any proof that the gut flora is related to crohn's disease.

The gut flora is an organ, it communicates with the immune system 24/7, and it took years of finetuning of the adaptive immune system and gut-brain barrier to get to a point of homeostasis. It's not something you want to mess with without knowing that it will have positive effect.

No one knows what you are getting when you take a fecal transplant, most species from the gut flora are unknown at this point, let alone that we don't even understand their function to begin with, nor do we even know if the indigenous gut flora is related to crohn's disease.

People should keep the idea open that this could make crohn's disease worse. C Difficile is not crohn's disease.


----------



## crohnicaly stinky

kiny said:


> Wouldn't surprise me if this worsened crohn's disease.
> 
> There is no evidence this works, there is no reason for me to believe why a fecal transplant would work for CD. You're giving an unknown amount of bacteria to someone without any knowledge of what bacteria are present and without any proof that the gut flora is related to crohn's disease.
> 
> The gut flora is an organ, it communicates with the immune system 24/7, and it took years of finetuning of the adaptive immune system and gut-brain barrier to get to a point of homeostasis. It's not something you want to mess with without knowing that it will have positive effect.
> 
> No one knows what you are getting when you take a fecal transplant, most species from the gut flora are unknown at this point, let alone that we don't even understand their function to begin with, nor do we even know if the indigenous gut flora is related to crohn's disease.
> 
> People should keep the idea open that this could make crohn's disease worse. C Difficile is not crohn's disease.


I read that somewhere that some group wants to collect stool samples from a wide segement of the populastion because they really don't know much about the gut bacteria.  

Also I have crohn's colitis and while I have no idea if this would help me, some folks do in fact have Crohn's in the large bowel and so it may well beneift.  I take lialda and it helps me, lialda targets the large intestine.

All that said i appreciate your words of caution.  Not only woud you transfer all sort of organics, there is a good chance you wil get some blood and could be exposed to various virus.  If this is a vlaid treatment for any condition, it stands to reason they find what is good in poop, isolate it and provide it as a capsule or some sort of enima where you only get the good stuff and not yesterday's cheesebuerger.  lol (sorry)


----------



## M30

kiny said:


> Wouldn't surprise me if this worsened crohn's disease.
> 
> There is no evidence this works, there is no reason for me to believe why a fecal transplant would work for CD. You're giving an unknown amount of bacteria to someone without any knowledge of what bacteria are present and without any proof that the gut flora is related to crohn's disease.
> 
> The gut flora is an organ, it communicates with the immune system 24/7, and it took years of finetuning of the adaptive immune system and gut-brain barrier to get to a point of homeostasis. It's not something you want to mess with without knowing that it will have positive effect.
> 
> No one knows what you are getting when you take a fecal transplant, most species from the gut flora are unknown at this point, let alone that we don't even understand their function to begin with, nor do we even know if the indigenous gut flora is related to crohn's disease.
> 
> People should keep the idea open that this could make crohn's disease worse. C Difficile is not crohn's disease.


Do you have any references that support your words of caution? Please share if so.

At the moment, all I have seen is that it works great in C. Diff cases and potentially others; while I don't recall seeing any reports of negative reactions, even in the clinical studies.

I hope you don't have any evidence to suggest otherwise because I like this little glimpse of hope 

Your perspective on this is still appreciated, thank you.


----------



## Hope345

Fecal transplants and personality traits:
There are certainly some unanswered questions with this treatment, but that is like believing you take on the personality of the cow when you drink her milk--lol:ylol2:

This may or may not be the answer for improving the health of IBD patients, although it has shown to help many.  But we dont have all the answers to any of the drugs given to us or our children.   It is the best they have right now...       (just my opinion) 

I love the debates, and any info we can add to any treatments.  It helps us make our choices about treatments and ask more questions.


----------



## Ya noy

They are doing double blind studies on fecal transplants now, and not just for C. difficile.  

There's one in progress with 130 UC patients, following a smaller sample study, in which 7 out of 8 UC patients who received fecal transplants responded well, and 6 remained well a year following treatment.  See link. http://www.ccfc.ca/site/c.ajIRK4NLLhJ0E/b.8343767/

It will be at least another year or two  Before the study is concluded and the results are published, but it does look promising.


----------



## Hope345

Here is an article regarding gut flora and fecal transplants

Microbial catalog of metagenomic sequencing.pdf

http://cmbi.bjmu.edu.cn/news2/report/2010/pdf/gut_3.pdf

_It has been estimated that the microbes in our bodies collectively
make up to 100 trillion cells...._


----------



## hugh

Mountaingem said:


> A friend of mine went into clinical trials for a treatment for Crohn's that involved large amounts of the "good bacteria"-like what you get in cultured food products but at a much higher controlled dose. He felt great initially but then developed a terrible infection, starting in the bowel and spreading to his bloodstream. He was hospitalised for two weeks for it.
> 
> The research doctors told him it's not just the nasty bacteria-c.diff, h.pylori, e.coli, etc that cause illness. Apparently even large amounts of good bacteria send a red flag to a Crohnnies' immune system. My friend had built antibodies to the new bacteria and because it was still being introduced it led to infection.


The difference between 'good' bacteria and 'bad' bacteria is often not the bacteria themselves but the location of the bacteria, the  environment in which they live, and the quantity of the bacteria present.

A healthy immune system 'actively' ignores potentially harmful bacteria in the intestine because immune system 'knows' the balance of other bacteria will maintain homeostasis

With crohns that balance is gone and the immune system is hyperactive so reactions are more likely

On top of that there is intestinal permeability, ranging from a de-regulation of tight junctions allowing bacterial proteins and bacteria into the bloodstream to lesions and ulcerated sores smeared with shit (which would both provoke an immune response)

Dumping a whole heap of bacteria on top of that seems a bit hit and miss........

Anyone who has looked at the diets that work (for many people) will know that removing the food for bad bacteria leads to a degree of healing that allows the reintroduction of other formerly problematic foods.

I would suggest that the same is true of bacteria.
Crohn's patients have been shown to be lacking in about 25% of the bacteria present in 'healthy' gut flora.
There may be an adverse reaction to some bacteria but this can be minimised buy adopting a paleo diet prior to the faecal enema



kiny said:


> The thing I don't quite understand about these methods is that in essence, doing antibiotics which tends to kill off a whole bunch of bacteria, both good and bad, and then adding probiotics, should essentially provide something similar to this. Maybe this method is easier, faster, cheaper? Not sure, but this looks a lot like what doctors have been doing for a while, you give a patient antibiotics which tends to disrupt the gut flora (some antibiotics do this better than others, augmentin does this very well for example) and then you use probiotics right after.


I was using a probiotic claiming to have a massive 14 strains of bacteria, but if it doesn't contain the strains that i'm missing it won't add then to my gut.
The average gut has about 400 out of a known possible 1000 species.
At least half the bacteria present cannot be cultured by conventional techniques.
Most shop bought probiotics are Lactobacillus or Bifidobacterium species, Great for helping digest milk but they don't even appear among the 57 most abundant species in the gut.

The only way to reintroduce an absent species is to get a live population of that species into the gut.

Killing everything and taking an ineffectual pill is typical of the arrogance and ignorance of modern medicine.



Igor_Passau said:


> if you have CD this will not help. I found two Russian they have CD and done this procedure at home. Negative effect!!! in russian





Igor_Passau said:


> illusion!
> I was on LDN! Nothing help!
> My friends with CD try this fecal transplants  - intensification


This is like saying 'I tried to get pregnant but it didn't work'
First question – were you doing it properly?
Second question – Are you sure?
Third – was your donor viable? 
Fourth – did you do everything you could in preparation (diet, supplements, THEN fecal transplants)?
fifth – when are you trying again?

Without a serious change of diet you are wasting your time (in my humble opinion).



kiny said:


> Wouldn't surprise me if this worsened crohn's disease.
> 
> There is no evidence this works, there is no reason for me to believe why a fecal transplant would work for CD. You're giving an unknown amount of bacteria to someone without any knowledge of what bacteria are present and without any proof that the gut flora is related to crohn's disease.


The health of the donor and their stool should always be verified before the transplant
_“ without any proof that the gut flora is related to crohn's disease”_
WTF?????? there is a proven well established relationship, the intricacies and nuances might not be fully understood but it is just ridiculous to claim that there is no relationship.
Gut flora either regulates or modulated almost every stage of immune function and Crohn's patients have 25% less variety of bacterial species.



kiny said:


> The gut flora is an organ, it communicates with the immune system 24/7, and it took years of finetuning of the adaptive immune system and gut-brain barrier to get to a point of homeostasis. It's not something you want to mess with without knowing that it will have positive effect.


If you have IBD the obviously the homeostasis is already messed up, and it took years of abuse (diet, stress, antibiotics etc) to deregulate.
How does this finetuned organ respond to the antibiotics and probiotics option - it's a bit like naplaming a jungle and then planting soy and wheat



kiny said:


> No one knows what you are getting when you take a fecal transplant, most species from the gut flora are unknown at this point, let alone that we don't even understand their function to begin with,


Once again emphasising the uselessness of a probiotic pill,
While we don't understand their functions, we do know that they are present and in homeostasis in a healthy gut and missing or unbalanced in an IBD gut...

DIET, SUPPLEMENTS then FAECAL TRANSPLANT




kiny said:


> nor do we even know if the indigenous gut flora is related to crohn's disease.


Yes we do, we don't know the precise nature of the relationship, but we do know that the are related


----------



## wildbill_52280

I just would like to say that the current state of the research on ibd as far as i understand, is very focused on the probable proposition that intestinal flora are playing a prime causative role and the question they have been trying to answer with different studies have been whether or not the state of dysbiosis is a cause or an effect of the disease process itself. in other words, does some malfunction of the human body itself make certain bacterial species unable to survive? or is the missing bacteria that is causing all the dysfunction in the first place. 

which came first, the inflammation or missing bacteria?(chicken or the egg) they are trying to find out which one may be the cause of the other.

so they have looked at people the are in remission and on drugs and studied the flora, then they have looked at people recently diagnosed who are not on any drugs and have full blown natural disease state, so what did they find?? regardless of the state of inflammation the dysbiosis still persists, so this still suggests and point in the direction that the bacteria/state of dysbiosis may play a causative role. and the inflammation doesnt seem to be causing the dysbiosis.

I believe at this point the only way to now conclusively answer the question as to whether the state of dysbiosis is the cause or result of the disease, is to start performing fecal transplants as they have been proven to be safe for c. difficile. 

it is my opinion that the success rates for fecal transplant will at first not be that great for crohn's but better for UC, and over time we will only learn more and soon it will be shown that, this is the solution for us all, and we will find easier and more efficient ways to correct the dysbiosis in IBD. this disease will then be as unheard of as it is in non industrialized nations that have 98% less crohn's cases.

now to find the causes, whew!!


----------



## kiny

hugh said:


> WTF?????? there is a proven well established relationship


You must know more than most research. If the relationship between the indigenous flora and crohn's disease has been established, which commensal is the inflammation directed at?

There is a T cell inflammatory response in the intestine in people with crohn's disease. This is only possible if an antigen presenting cell presented the antigen to a T cell.

So which gut flora commensal is the antigen?


----------



## kiny

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1234104/pdf/0601-05.pdf


"_In this study, the dominant microbiotas of CD patients did not differ qualitatively between ulcerated and nonulcerated mucosae. Biodiversity was preserved, and no particular dominant microbiota appeared to be associated with ulceration. This does not support a pathological role of qualitative dysbiosis in CD-associated ulceration. 

In our study, no bacterial species was found to be specifically associated with CD ulceration, and ulceration did not qualitatively modify the dominant associated microbiota._"


The only leeway I would grant here is specific invasive species of E Coli, LF82, but they are no longer part of the indigenous gut flora, they are extremely pathogenic species.

Any dysbiosis prior to acute disease might facilitate penetration through the cell wall, the gut flora is a major form of defense, but this in no way implies that the gut flora is directly involved in the actual inflammatory process.

That the gut flora is directly involved in the pathogenesis of crohn's disease is anything but established.


----------



## kiny

hugh said:


> Yes we do, we don't know the precise nature of the relationship, but we do know that the are related


No we don't.

There are major issues with the gut flora theory, one of them is the fact there are skip lesions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Crohn%27s+Disease+May+Be+Differentiated+Into+2+Distinct+Biotypes+Based+on+the+Detection+of+Bacterial+Genomic+Sequences+and+Virulence+Genes+Within+Submucosal+Tissues.

_"dysbiosis and leaky gut are common manifestations of gastrointestinal upset and cannot explain “skip lesions""_


In fact dysbiosis is a manifestation of intestinal TB, even though TB is not directly related to the gut flora, you can find dysbiosis in a number of diseases, they're just a manifestation of the disease state.



Another question you should ask yourself, is why the inflammation would be localised in the small intestine, instead of the colon. The colon has many more commensals than the small intestine.

So why is the colon in many people with crohn's disease unaffacted. My colon is clean and never had inflammation, if my body had a directed immune response against the gut flora, my colon should be inflamed, but it's not, the part with the highest concentration of gut flora commensals is not inflamed at all, which completely contradicts your theory.

If your theory of stress and dysbiosis and "abuse" as you call it, leads to crohn's disease, then why is the part which would be most affected, the colon, free of any inflammation?



Another question for you, for a number of years they thought the gut flora was a purely pathogenic organ, they went to great lenghts to remove these bacteria before they realised they were commensals. These people didn't develop crohn's disease at all, they got more infections, but they didn't develop crohn's disease. How come if the dysbiosis is so central in your theory?


The dysbiosis and directed immune response at gut flora is a theory with a lot of unresolved questions. Either because they're extremely hard to explain, or because the theory is wrong.


----------



## hugh

kiny said:


> You must know more than most research. If the relationship between the indigenous flora and crohn's disease has been established, which commensal is the inflammation directed at?
> 
> There is a T cell inflammatory response in the intestine in people with crohn's disease. This is only possible if an antigen presenting cell presented the antigen to a T cell.
> 
> So which gut flora commensal is the antigen?


sorry? Which specific bacteria causes crohns? Is that really the question?

Your claim was that there is no relationship.
I haven't claimed that bacteria cause crohns, and certainly not that a specific bacteria causes crohns which seems to be what you are claiming (that I am claiming).
I said there is a relationship, and that this has been established in many studies,
Relationship does not mean cause, it means that bacteria are involved in the development or expression or continuation of the disease. As causative factors? probably, As victims? Possibly.
Research suggests that it may be an absence of (specific) bacteria

There is a T cell inflammatory response. OK, all that mean is the normal immunicological tolerance has been lost or disrupted.
The immune system has a normal tolerance of many antigens expressed in three ways.

Central tolerance, whereby T cells are deleted before they mature, 
Peripheral tolerance where active T cells are released but neutralised, and 
an Acquired tolerance, in this case specifically Oral tolerance which can be described as “ _an active non-response to antigens delivered via the oral route_” [1].
In other words, the healthy immune system knows it's there but ignores it, the unhealthy immune system mounts an attack

_“Commensal microorganisms are not ignored by the intestinal immune system. Recent evidence shows that commensals actively participate in maintaining intestinal immune homeostasis by interacting with intestinal epithelial cells and delivering tolerogenic signals that are transmitted to the underlying cells of the immune system.”_[2]

Get it? The commensals are what prevents the T cell response, the absence of which promotes immune reaction

“_These results suggest that the balance tolerance/immuno-reaction in the gut is achieved through self-regulatory cycles where suppression by negative regulators, such as pims, is triggered as soon as a specific threshold of immuno activation is reached._”[3]

“_Oral tolerance is an active process, leading to the generation of antigen-specific T lymphocytes that suppress further immune stimulation. It is defined by the antigen-specific suppression of both cellular and humoral immune responses to orally administered antigens. In addition to the generation of suppressive T cells, anergy and T cell deletion have been described as mechanisms underlying oral tolerance_ “ [3a]

“_Consequently, mucosal tolerance protects the mucosa from detrimental inflammatory immune responses_. “[3a]

Balanced – not too much, not too little, there is ALWAYS inflammation in the gut, but if it is the right amount then we are healthy




kiny said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1234104/pdf/0601-05.pdf
> 
> 
> "_In this study, the dominant microbiotas of CD patients did not differ qualitatively between ulcerated and nonulcerated mucosae. Biodiversity was preserved, and no particular dominant microbiota appeared to be associated with ulceration. This does not support a pathological role of qualitative dysbiosis in CD-associated ulceration.
> 
> In our study, no bacterial species was found to be specifically associated with CD ulceration, and ulceration did not qualitatively modify the dominant associated microbiota._"
> 
> 
> The only leeway I would grant here is specific invasive species of E Coli, LF82, but they are no longer part of the indigenous gut flora, they are extremely pathogenic species.
> 
> Any dysbiosis prior to acute disease might facilitate penetration through the cell wall, the gut flora is a major form of defense, but this in no way implies that the gut flora is directly involved in the actual inflammatory process.
> 
> That the gut flora is directly involved in the pathogenesis of crohn's disease is anything but established.


So, what a tedious read that is

They did a study, comparing the bacteria at ulcerated sites and at un-ulcerated normal sites and found no significant difference in the the quantity of the dominant bacteria, found that diversity "_remains high_” and “_this argues against the pathogenic role of localised qualitative disbiosis in CD-associated ulceration_”

That's all very sciency, but meaningless.
We've already established that crohns have appox 25% less species of bacteria than normal [4], and that we don't know functions and interactions between bacteria and the immune system, let alone the interactions between bacteria themselves, so while they didn't think there was much in it, they didn't really find anything out, did they?

If I dig a hole am I going to get a blister all over my hand, or just one or two places?
If I throw a handful of seeds in the garden are they all going to sprout?
If I eat lots of lollies are all my teeth going to get holes in them?

Then you go on to point out one bacteria that is implicated,  LF82

“_These findings indicate that AIEC, strain LF82 disrupts the integrity of the polarized epithelial cell barrier. This disruption enables bacteria to penetrate into the epithelium and replicate in the host cell cytoplasm. These findings provide important links between microbes related to IBD, the intestinal epithelial cell barrier and disease pathogenesis._ “ [5]

If that's not a relationship then i'm a pink elephant wearing a tutu


kiny said:


> That the gut flora is *directly *involved in the pathogenesis of crohn's disease is anything but established.


hmmmmmm, we are speaking different languages, 
I say “relationship”, you hear “causal relationship“ (not casual). 
“ directly involved in the pathogenesis”, not that i'm not saying it isn't (directly involved in the pathogenesis),, just that i'm not saying it is....
We certainly don't know that it isn't, but double negative get a bit clumsy.
There IS a relationship between gut flora and crohns, we don't know it's extent and we don't know who's on top.



kiny said:


> There are major issues with the gut flora theory, one of them is the fact there are skip lesions.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Crohn%27s+Disease+May+Be+Differentiated+Into+2+Distinct+Biotypes+Based+on+the+Detection+of+Bacterial+Genomic+Sequences+and+Virulence+Genes+Within+Submucosal+Tissues.
> 
> _"dysbiosis and leaky gut are common manifestations of gastrointestinal upset and cannot explain “skip lesions""_
> .


Argggghhhhh, why do you make me read this stuff.....
I didn't see that extract in the abstract, was it the right link

So not all crohns are the same? OK, and?
“_This study is the first to examine the microbial populations of submucosal tissues during intestinal disease and provide evidence of a distinct submucosal microbiome and biotypes within Crohn's disease_”, 
there's a relationship, 




kiny said:


> In fact dysbiosis is a manifestation of intestinal TB, even though TB is not directly related to the gut flora, you can find dysbiosis in a number of diseases, they're just a manifestation of the disease state.


ok, there is a 'relationship', not a causal relationship, TB may lead to gut disbiosis



kiny said:


> Another question you should ask yourself, is why the inflammation would be localised in the small intestine, instead of the colon. The colon has many more commensals than the small intestine.


That the Peyers Patches are specifically targeted for inflammation...
“_This correlation suggests that Crohn's disease may develop as an inflammatory process specifically targeting these important lymphoid structures._”[6]
“_Peyer's patches play a major role in intestinal immunity, are portals of entry for significant pathogens, and may be important in Crohn's disease_” [7]
“ _PPs are the first places of T-cell-specific priming and proliferation in the gut_”[3a]
There are normally far greater quantities of bacteria in the colon than the small intestine .
That area is affected the most because it is more sensitive, not because there are more bacteria there



kiny said:


> My colon is clean and never had inflammation, if my body had a directed immune response against the gut flora, my colon should be inflamed, but it's not, the part with the highest concentration of gut flora commensals is not inflamed at all, which completely contradicts your theory.
> 
> If your theory of stress and dysbiosis and "abuse" as you call it, leads to crohn's disease, then why is the part which would be most affected, the colon, free of any inflammation?


That the Peyer's Patches suffer the inflammation has been addressed, This doesn't contradict the theory at all (only in your head)
The part most affected is the part most sensitive. 
Too simple to understand?



kiny said:


> Another question for you, for a number of years they thought the gut flora was a purely pathogenic organ, they went to great lenghts to remove these bacteria before they realised they were commensals. These people didn't develop crohn's disease at all, they got more infections, but they didn't develop crohn's disease. How come if the dysbiosis is so central in your theory?


Why are numbers of ALL immune diseases increasing at a staggering rate?
Diet probably
Disbiosis is central to 'my' theory of crohns, but I don't give a rat's arse for the 'cause'. 
Disbiosis is central to crohn's but not the whole story, 
It's the part of the story (along with diet) that we can take control of and effect changes to our own health.

Good luck on your wait for a scientific breakthrough and a magic bullet 



kiny said:


> The dysbiosis and directed immune response at gut flora is a theory with a lot of unresolved questions. .


What directed immune response? If anything – misdirected, wild and uncontrolled maybe
Gee wizz, a theory with unresolved questions? in science?
I don't know which branch of science you subscribe to, the magic fairyland version?


kiny said:


> Either because they're extremely hard to explain, or because the theory is wrong.


Bullshit, we just don't know yet, 
Add it to the list


----------



## kiny

You mix a lot of things up which is why I get annoyed and wanted to reply. People are somehow convinced the gut flora and therefore fecal transplants are going to strongly impact their disease, I don't want to see them disappointed if that's not the case.

A T cell response doesn't mean the tolerance to the gut flora is lost, it's possible but it's just as likely that an APC presented a pathogen to a T cell in a lymph node.

Regarding the peyer's patches, M Cells sample pathogens that are able to bind to the epithelial barrier or go through the epithelial barrier, they *don't *sample the indigenous gut flora. You're trying to use that as a reason for a directed immune response against the indigenous flora, that's not right. I have posted the studies here about the peyer's patches and talked about them, which I assume is why you mention it, but correctly explain what they do. They are not directing immune responses against the gut flora commensals, they are purely looking for pathogenic bacteria who can pass through the epithelial barrier. 

Gut flora commensals and pathogens are *not the same thing*. Even in the case of LF82, LF82 in a susceptible host is a pathogen, it is no longer a commensal, that distinction needs to be made if you want to talk about fecal transplants, a fecal transplant is going to do nothing for people if it involves pathogens that penetrate the intestinal wall. It's probably not going to help at all or make matters worse. I used the word _indigenous gut flora _ specifically so you won't use them interchargeably but you still do since you make no distinction between peyer's parches sampling pathogens vs gut flora, or infections of the submucosa or a gut flora response.

Regarding the microbiome in submucosa you mentioned, they tested mycobacteria and invasive E Coli, that's not the gut flora, it has nothing to do with the indigenous gut flora.


One of the other things to understand is the autophagy issue, NOD2 directs autophagy through ATG16L1 activation, mutations in these result in dysfunctional phagocytosis. Both these genes are implicated in crohn's disease. Mutations would result in inability to control intracellular pathogens, not the gut flora.

There are plenty of issues like that which is why there is serious doubt cast over the idea that the immune response would be directed at the gut flora, I really doubt it is.


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## kiny

hugh said:


> Then you go on to point out one bacteria that is implicated,  LF82
> 
> If that's not a relationship then i'm a pink elephant wearing a tutu


It's not a relationship, learn the difference between a pathogen and a commensal. LF82 is a pathogen in susceptible hosts, it's an invasive form of E Coli that penetrates macrophages and disrupts phagocytosis at the autophagy step. It sticks onto the epithelial cells and breaks through them. No fecal transplant is going to help you if LF82 is causing the inflammation.

Do you see the difference and understand that no amount of probiotics, or fecal transplants are going to help you if a bacteria is present in submucosa causing inflammation.

There is a clear difference between directed response against the indigenous gut flora and a pathogenic infection. I keep using the word _indigenous_ so you would start to make that distinction. They are 2 different things. *Do not *bunch them together, fecal transplants would help the former but not the later.

LF82 sticking to and breaking through intestinal barrier:


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## Ihurt

I have heard promising results about fecal transplants as well( especially for C-diff related infections). The only issue I would have is that I think you have to make sure your donor is a relative. I mean everyones body has different bacteria that their bodies are used too. I think it is possible that by adding a bacteria that your body is not accustomed to could set the stage for almost any problem or an immune resopnse. But over all I think it is worth looking into at least. I read about a woman who had such severe C-diff, she was literally close to dying. She could not get rid of it. She had no health insurance or anything so she could not really run to the hospital. Her husband read up on the fecal transplants and he became her fecal donor, they did the procedure at home themselves( via enema bag) and she was well within days! C-diff was under control! So I do think it can work in some cases.

As far as the relationship when it comes to gut flora and the development of crohns, well that is the million dollar question. Nobody knows what causes crohns. I mean gut flora "may" have something to do with it, but there is no proof of that. I mean you can take a bunch of people out there that abuse themselves and suck antibiotics down like candy and they never have any gut issues or health problems. But then you can have someone who eats healthy as possible and hardly ever touched antibiotics and they get crohns disease or UC. For all we know crohns can be caused by a virus! I mean most viruses literally Cannot be killed. They do go dormant from time to time though but stress and illness can wake the up. I mean there are so many theories out there regarding causes for crohns. One day in the very far off distant future they may come close to finding a cause, but for right now, nobody knows... Just like a lot of the other orphan diseases out there, Nobody knows....


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## kiny

hugh said:


> Argggghhhhh, why do you make me read this stuff.....
> I didn't see that extract in the abstract, was it the right link


Ask access through your school or institution and you can read the full studies.

The distinction is made here too. There is nothing to discuss if you don't make a distinction between commensals and pathogens.

If you want to discuss fecal transplants you should ask yourself not only if it would work but why it would work, if the gut flora and dysbiosis is not directly involved in the inflammatory process then a fecal transplant would do nothing for people, in fact it could cause a lot of unwanted issues. So it's important to make distinctions and to define what you're talking about.

If crohn's disease involves one or more pathogens taking advantage of a susceptible host, then a fecal transplant will likely not help. No one uses a fecal transplat to treat intestinal tuberculosis, so you need to be very very sure of yourself that the gut flora is causing the inflammation before you experiment with fecal transplants, you can cause a lot of issues too with it. You should be especially careful with people who have crohn's disease, since we know people with NOD2 and ATG16L1 mutations have issues with bacterial clearance.


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## hugh

Firstly, sorry, all my referenced on the last post were not added, lost in the copy and paste.



kiny said:


> You mix a lot of things up which is why I get annoyed and wanted to reply.


You separate a lot of things that are inextricably linked and focus on a specific breakdown in the third layer of a complex interactive system and completely ignore the breakdown and ineffectiveness of the first two layers which lead to the breakdown of the third.
I think the correct expression is “Can't see the wood for the trees”


kiny said:


> People are somehow convinced the gut flora and therefore fecal transplants are going to strongly impact their disease, I don't want to see them disappointed if that's not the case.


That's reasonable, but completely different to what you have been asserting......
That it WON'T do any good.
I also feel that it is only part of a strategy to combat the dis-ease, and I too don't want them disappointed so I recommend that they alter their diet (which has repeatedly been demonstrated effective, and you have also repeatedly denounced) , supplement as required, and then try this if it is still felt to be necessary.



kiny said:


> A T cell response doesn't mean the tolerance to the gut flora is lost, it's possible but it's just as likely that an APC presented a pathogen to a T cell in a lymph node.


I agree , might be an APC presenting a pathogen, but my money is on an antigen from something previously tolerated....
_“Crohn's disease and graft-versus-host disease are thought to be driven by an abnormal response toward the commensal flora. They have been associated with NOD2 mutations and PP dysfunction........”
“.......Commensal microorganisms are not ignored by the intestinal immune system. *Recent evidence shows that commensals actively participate in maintaining intestinal immune homeostasis by interacting with intestinal epithelial cells and delivering tolerogenic signals that are transmitted to the underlying cells of the immune system*......”
“........Consequently, mucosal tolerance protects the mucosa from detrimental inflammatory immune response. “_[1]

It's not my theory -  “mucosal tolerance [of commensal bacteria] protects the mucosa from detrimental inflammatory immune responses” - take it or leave it, I don't care



kiny said:


> Regarding the peyer's patches, M Cells sample pathogens that are able to bind to the epithelial barrier or go through the epithelial barrier, they *don't *sample the indigenous gut flora.


the only reason I brought up Peyer's Patches is because you keep droning on about them and the predominance of inflammation in the terminal ileum and that inflammation here somehow proves that it is not related to bacteria (strangely, because the colon, which is designed to tolerate larger numbers of bacteria, can do so better than the terminal ileum)

These bacteria “that  bind to the epithelial barrier or go through the epithelial barrier”, they just pop out of thin air do they?

I'm no sciency guy, but when I read this.....
_“The follicle-associated epithelium (FAE) differs from the epithelium of the villus mucosa: the production of mucus is weak; the membrane-bound digestive enzymes are lightly expressed and the enterocyte brush border glycocalyx has different glycosylation patterns [15–17]. FAE is also characterized by a large number of infiltrated B-cells, T-cells, macrophages and DCs. Finally, the FAE lacks the subepithelial myofibroblast sheath and, the basal lamina is more porous compared with the regular epithelium …...
…....The cellular composition of the FAE (i.e., the proportion of enterocytes and M-cells) may be modulated by bacteria present in the gut lumen........
….....M-cells are specialized in the transcytosis of intact luminal material like soluble proteins, antigens, bacteria and viruses “_[1]

…....“transcytosis of intact luminal material” sounds like sampling to me, but hey, big words and all



kiny said:


> You're trying to use that as a reason for a directed immune response against the indigenous flora, that's not right.


While I think a “directed immune response against the indigenous flora” may be a possibility, i've never claimed this to be a fact or even the most likely 'cause or causative factor', 
If you remember correctly you will recall that I just took exception to your claims.... 
“and without any proof that the gut flora is related to crohn's disease”, 
I see a relationship, I don't claim to understand it, but I can see it



kiny said:


> I have posted the studies here about the peyer's patches and talked about them, which I assume is why you mention it, but correctly explain what they do.


I'm so lucky to have you to tell me what is correct and what is not.....
We obviously read different things, as you will see from above, 
“transcytosis of intact luminal material” sounds like sampling to me, Whether directly from the lumen or indirectly through the mucosal barrier, who gives a toss?



kiny said:


> They are not directing immune responses against the gut flora commensals, they are purely looking for pathogenic bacteria who can pass through the epithelial barrier.
> Gut flora commensals and pathogens are *not the same thing*.


You seem to put bacteria in two categories, commensals and pathogenic,
Firstly commensal implies that one party benefits ant the other is not affected.
This is not the case, both parties benefit.
Secondly you take them from one category to the other without acknowledging that what has changed is the (previously mentioned) 'active tolerance'.



kiny said:


> Even in the case of LF82, LF82 in a susceptible host is a pathogen, it is no longer a commensal, that distinction needs to be made if you want to talk about fecal transplants, a fecal transplant is going to do nothing for people if it involves pathogens that penetrate the intestinal wall.


They were 'commensal', now they are 'pathogenic', but that only happens when YOU want it to?

Lets try 4 categories,
-essential/beneficial
-opportunistic
-transitional
-pathogenic,
and all the bacteria in the first three categories can theoretically transition into the forth category, - particularly if the immune system is functioning inappropriately
 (which will happen why? Diet and disbiosis?)

The 'susceptible host' became susceptable – why? Diet and disbiosis?



kiny said:


> I used the word _indigenous gut flora _ specifically so you won't use them interchargeably but you still do since you make no distinction between peyer's parches sampling pathogens vs gut flora, or infections of the submucosa or a gut flora response.


But as you have shown, there is an interchangeablity, and that seems to be at the discretion of the immune system, and sometimes the immune system does not work properly.
Peyer's patchs (according to my sources) do both, induction of tolerance [to beneficial gut flora] and defence against pathogens
_“PPs functions, like induction of immune tolerance or defense against pathogens result from the complex interplay between immune cells located in the lymphoid follicles and the follicle-associated epithelium.....”_[1]



kiny said:


> Regarding the microbiome in submucosa you mentioned, they tested mycobacteria and invasive E Coli, that's not the gut flora, it has nothing to do with the indigenous gut flora.


There are ALWAYS opportunistic, transitional and pathogenic bacteria present in the lumen, one role of beneficial gut flora is to suppress their growth,
In my world “Gut Flora” means all gut flora, beneficial gut flora means good bugs only (if such a thing can exist as location, quantity and interaction with other bacteria will be what determines if they are good or not)



kiny said:


> There are plenty of issues like that which is why there is serious doubt cast over the idea that the immune response would be directed at the gut flora, I really doubt it is.


Not even close to casting doubt, you are focusing on the end of a cascade and ignoring everything that lead to that point



kiny said:


> It's not a relationship, learn the difference between a pathogen and a commensal. LF82 is a pathogen in susceptible hosts


really?, so it's a 'commensal' in a host with a healthy microflora, and a pathogen in a host with an unhealthy microflora?
You mean in a healthy gut it is suppressed by 'good' bacteria
Wow, i'm starting to understand that whether something is 'commensal' or 'pathogenic' depends on so many factors, Thank you for helping me understand......
Wait.....
Wasn't that my point?



kiny said:


> Do you see the difference and understand that no amount of probiotics, or fecal transplants are going to help you if a bacteria is present in submucosa causing inflammation.
> 
> There is a clear difference between directed response against the indigenous gut flora and a pathogenic infection. I keep using the word _indigenous_ so you would start to make that distinction. They are 2 different things. *Do not *bunch them together, fecal transplants would help the former but not the later.


Ohh, thanks again, indiginous means 'only the good ones', not actually the ones that are indigenous (normally present,  suppressed or not), and pathogenic means only the 'bad' ones even though they might be good in someone else or somewhere else or in smaller quantities or if other bacteria were there to modulate their effects or if the immune system wasn't hyperactive.
Wow this is tricky stuff, so glad you can tell me right from wrong.....

So, no amount of probiotics will change any of these factors?
Hmmmm, if you say so....



kiny said:


> The distinction is made here too. There is nothing to discuss if you don't make a distinction between commensals and pathogens.


You're still on about this artificial distinction, although I tend to agree, there is nothing to discuss
“........Consequently, mucosal tolerance protects the mucosa from detrimental inflammatory immune responses. “[1]
Impaired immune response (lack of tolerance) mean all bets are off



kiny said:


> If you want to discuss fecal transplants you should ask yourself not only if it would work but why it would work, if the gut flora and dysbiosis is not directly involved in the inflammatory process then a fecal transplant would do nothing for people, in fact it could cause a lot of unwanted issues. So it's important to make distinctions and to define what you're talking about


I don't have a problem with any of those eitiologic theories, but I don't see them as being mutually exclusive, and certainly they don't excluding other factors.

I'm still happy with the “Crohn's disease is caused by interactions between environmental, immunological and bacterial factors in genetically susceptible individuals” theory,

All that is needed is to remove the interaction between “unidentified persistent bacterial pathogen” and the host, and *a healthy (varied) gut flora will suppress growth of (potentially) pathogenic bacteria, help maintain an effective physical barrier, and support an effective adaptive response*.

I don't give a rat's arse if this “unidentified persistent bacterial pathogen”
 turns out to be a good one gone bad or a bad one gone bad.

It doesn't affect the theory at all,


[1] http://f1000.com/prime/reports/b/1/9/


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## kiny

hugh said:


> The 'susceptible host' became susceptable – why? Diet and disbiosis?


People with genetic predisposition to crohn's disease suffer from frustrated phagocytosis through NOD2, ATG16L1 mutations. They hinder correct autophagy, and LF82 is able to exploit the autophagy step. It leaves you susceptible to intracellular bacteria, which is why most of the research trying to find bacteria which could cause the immune response are directed at research towards intracellular bacteria. That's why you'll see studies trying to find AIEC (lf82), listeria, yersinia, mycoplasma, bartonella, borrelia, mycobacteria (Map, Mac) , because they're intracellular and a candidate pathogen.

We know people with crohn's disease are more susceptible to only certain types of bacteria, because of the NOD2 and ATG16L1 genes, the candidate bacteria is likely going to be one that penetrates a cell. That's what I meant with susceptible.


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## Ya noy

IMPORTANT: Fecal Transplants Outperform Antibiotics In Clinical Trial
WRITTEN BY ROBOPANDA / 01.18.13






We are nothing if not exceptionally mature.

If you’ve listened to any random episode of the FilmDrunk Frotcast, you already know that fecal transplants are totally rad. These procedures, in which feces from a person with healthy gut bacteria is transplanted into a patient with an unhealthy bacterial profile, have shown significant promise but haven’t been studied in a randomized clinical trial . . . until now. Over 500 people with the typically antibiotic-resistant bacterium Clostridium difficile have been treated with fecal transplants in the past 50 years, but all evidence until recently has be anecdotal. Ed Yong writes (in Nature) about the first fecal transplant randomized clinical trial.

The first results from a faecal transplant trial have been published in the New England Journal of Medicine, and they are a resounding vindication for the technique. The infusions of faeces cured 94% of patients who received it (15 out of 16), all of whom had already suffered at least one relapse of C.difficile. By comparison, the standard antibiotic — Vancomycin — only cured 27% of patients (7 out of 26). The difference was so great that the Dutch team behind the study had to stop the trial early. Everyone eventually received the faecal transplants. [NERS]






And YOU get a fecal transplant!

And YOU get a fecal transplant!

EVERYBODY GETS A FECAL TRANSPLANT!







Anyway, the only negative side effects (constipation or diarrhea shortly after the transplant) were rare and preferable to having C. diff. There are some interesting things to note about this study. Fecal transplants are usually done via an enema, also known in scientific nomenclature as “butt-chugging” the donor feces. Els van Nood and Josbert Keller at the University of Amsterdam instead opted to thread a tube through the nose and into the small intestine. (A different clinical study using the enema method is in progress with Lawrence Brandt at the Albert Einstein School of Medicine.)

Els Van Nood noted it may be easier to gain regulatory approval if the feces used came from pre-screened healthy donors whose feces was frozen until needed. (By all means, use the break room refrigerator.) A new clinical trial is underway comparing frozen and fresh fecal samples for effectiveness. Els Van Nood also noted that some of her test subjects expressed a desire to be in the fecal transplant group instead of the antibiotic group, with older patients being the most adamant.

It seems many people are enthusiastic about fecal transplants. Jim Romenesko received an email from an unnamed editor who says a fecal transplant story in The New York Times is on track to possibly become the most-emailed NYT article of all time. Someday, you can tell your grandkids that you were alive when articles about poop transplants were not yet the most-emailed Times articles. Those were dark times indeed.

Read more: http://www.uproxx.com/gammasquad/2013/01/fecal-transplants-clinical-trial-study/#ixzz2NijZSUHa


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## Bustersmom

I have Crohn's disease and was on Flagyl and Cipro for over two weeks and got three abscesses. I figured i had nothing to lose by trying the transplant. I waited three weeks after finishing the antibiotics and was in bad shape. abscesses were terrible. I did the transplant daily for a while and the abscesses, Two which were large, Began to shrink every day.  After a month they were gone, and made NO fistula! I haven't had one bit of trouble down there since. I believe the transplants work. I don't know if it works all through the colon, but it worked on me in my lower colon and i was a complete mess. Bree


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## M30

Bustersmom said:


> I have Crohn's disease and was on Flagyl and Cipro for over two weeks and got three abscesses. I figured i had nothing to lose by trying the transplant. I waited three weeks after finishing the antibiotics and was in bad shape. abscesses were terrible. I did the transplant daily for a while and the abscesses, Two which were large, Began to shrink every day.  After a month they were gone, and made NO fistula! I haven't had one bit of trouble down there since. I believe the transplants work. I don't know if it works all through the colon, but it worked on me in my lower colon and i was a complete mess. Bree


HYFR! That is awesome!! Thank you for trying it and thank you for sharing your feedback.


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## Ihurt

That is great to hear. I mean in a way it does make sense. I mean you are taking bacteria and putting it up there where it will reproduce. The only bad thing is that if you even need antibitoics wont they all be killed off again? But I think it is great that it has helped you. I mean honestly you ca do this at home yourself if you have a family member who is a donor. I knew of a lady who had BAD C-diff infection and she and her hubby did it and it worked!








Bustersmom said:


> I have Crohn's disease and was on Flagyl and Cipro for over two weeks and got three abscesses. I figured i had nothing to lose by trying the transplant. I waited three weeks after finishing the antibiotics and was in bad shape. abscesses were terrible. I did the transplant daily for a while and the abscesses, Two which were large, Began to shrink every day.  After a month they were gone, and made NO fistula! I haven't had one bit of trouble down there since. I believe the transplants work. I don't know if it works all through the colon, but it worked on me in my lower colon and i was a complete mess. Bree


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## hugh

kiny said:


> People with genetic predisposition to crohn's disease suffer from frustrated phagocytosis through NOD2, ATG16L1 mutations. They hinder correct autophagy, and LF82 is able to exploit the autophagy step. It leaves you susceptible to intracellular bacteria, which is why most of the research trying to find bacteria which could cause the immune response are directed at research towards intracellular bacteria.


I understand that research shows people with some variations of the NOD2 gene are more prone to developing crohns disease. There are about 40 variations on NOD2 currently associated with crohns.
The current theory_ “suggests that changes in the NOD2 gene prevent the protein from recognizing bacteria, allowing these microbes to grow unchecked and invade cells that line the intestine. “_

OK, no problem with that,
My problem is that NOD2 variations have probably been with us for thousands of years, (and certainly not a new explosion of mutations in the last hundred or so years).
-It is probable that some of these variations have benefits that will/would show up in other circumstances, rather than just being a 'bad' mutation, 'our bodies turning on us', etc

Likewise, the theory that here is some new bacteria that is suddenly running rampant doesn't seen like the most obvious explanation.
-The bacteria (bacterium?, bacterial protien?) has probably been around for a long while.

The 'new' factor leading to the explosion of this (and sooooo many other) disease is that the two are being brought together

This would be why there have been low levels of IBD for hundreds of years (only a few people managed to achieve the interaction between these particular genes and these particular bacterial antigens.)
In most of the healthy population there was an intact physical barrier, a healthy population of bacteria suppressing the growth of the pathogens, and a correctly functioning immune system (to handle the very few pathogens that got past the first two)

This would account for the enormous range of theories for crohns, -antibiotics, saccharin, wheat, antibacterial soap, stress, carbohydrates, surfactants .........
Any breakdown in the immune function (beginning with disbiosis and permeability) can lead to the interaction between the specific gene and the specific protein/bacterium causing a specific disease.

Perpetuating the search for 'the specific cause' at the wrong end of the etiology is a pharmaceutical companies wet dream,
Thousands of copyrighted treatments and a general public with no understanding of what's going on.

For ever time they isolate a gene related to a disease, they get closer to a treatment with it's own host of side effects, and further away from the most effective, least invasive, and least profitable intervention.



kiny said:


> We know people with crohn's disease are more susceptible to only certain types of bacteria, because of the NOD2 and ATG16L1 genes, the candidate bacteria is likely going to be one that penetrates a cell. That's what I meant with susceptible.


I agree, that person is susceptible, because a gene that probably hasn't caused problems for (?) decades/centuries/thousands of years (?), is coming into contact with a bacteria that probably hasn't caused problems for (?) decades/centuries/thousands of years (?).

I'm interested in what is bringing the two together, and why the same intervention has repeatedly proved beneficial in crohns, lupus, high cholesterol, multiple sclerosis, hashimotos ,obesity, psoriasis, diabetes, polycystic ovary syndrome, etc etc

Note, i did say beneficial, not cured, obviously time for a few more studies, But i'm not expecting anyone to fund a study that shows big pharma is making money by treating us for illness due to the side effects of big ag, big pharma and big 'processedfood' corporations


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## hugh

Sorry if i drifted too far off topic.......



Bustersmom said:


> I have Crohn's disease and was on Flagyl and Cipro for over two weeks and got three abscesses. I figured i had nothing to lose by trying the transplant. I waited three weeks after finishing the antibiotics and was in bad shape. abscesses were terrible. I did the transplant daily for a while and the abscesses, Two which were large, Began to shrink every day.  After a month they were gone, and made NO fistula! I haven't had one bit of trouble down there since. I believe the transplants work. I don't know if it works all through the colon, but it worked on me in my lower colon and i was a complete mess. Bree


This is great to hear, congrats.
Did you do anything else to complement the the transplants?


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## kiny

hugh said:


> I agree, that person is susceptible, because a gene that probably hasn't caused problems for (?) decades/centuries/thousands of years (?), is coming into contact with a bacteria that probably hasn't caused problems for (?) decades/centuries/thousands of years (?).


Many people with the NOD2 mutation do not have crohn's disease.

But I put very high value on the NOD2 and ATG16L1 (the autophagy gene directed by NOD2) mutations because that is concrete evidence, it differentiates crohn's disease from UC, it's consistent in the West, it's seen in adults and in the increasing number of new onset pediatric patients.

There are very few things that are certain in crohn's disease where someone can hold onto to build an understanding from, NOD2 and ATG16L1 mutations as risk factors for crohn's disease are one of the few things that have been reproduced thousands of times now, so I value this evidence a lot.


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## M30

I hope the flare inducing controversy does not discourage first hand feedback from the community.


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## DenJansen

Hi everyone,
I wanted to drop a quick line, as my friend has Crohn's Disease, and he mentioned to me he'd heard fecal transplants were being considered as a potential treatment.  Now, I can't speak to fecal transplant's viability for Crohn's Disease, but I _can_ provide first-hand testimony to its legitimacy as a treatment for other GI conditions.  My wife had c.diff for several months, and after trying literally everything else, a fecal transplant from my daughter was like a miracle cure.

Shortly before my son was born, some medical miscommunication resulted in my wife getting overloaded on antibiotics, killing off all of the good bacteria in her system.  As a result, c.diff took over and was wreaking havoc.  I'm sure many of you can identify with her experience: crippling pain, having to nurse our son on the toilet because she was going ALL the time, etc, etc.  They tried Flagyl, no effect.  They tried the maximum dose of Vancocin (which, at over 2 grand a bottle, was thankfully covered by our insurance), no effect.  They tried mixing in probiotics with these treatments, nothing worked.

So, in desperation, she'd been reading about a fecal transplant.  She talked to her doctor about it, as well as a doctor over in Seattle (several hours away) that had experience with the treatment.  Her doctor was unable to do it (I can't remember the exact reasoning, but I believe it had something to do with not being recognized as an acceptable form of treatment), but seeing as the procedure is so ridiculously simple you could do it in your own home, one of her incredibly gracious nurses volunteered to do it off the books.

So, the gross part is below (you have been warned).  And yes, the procedure is incredibly gross.  But I can honestly say my wife has never regretted doing it, and only wishes she had done it sooner.

My wife ordered a used blender online, scrubbed it thoroughly.  We had to get our then-four-year-old daughter to poop into a collection bowl the hospital gave us (this took a couple days).  She was the most viable candidate because, as a young child, her immune system had the least exposure to bacterial or parasitic infections. We then had to put the stool in a zip-lock and rush over to the doctor's office because the procedure has to be done within 30 minutes or the stool isn't viable.  Once there, the nurse blended the stool (and yes, we immediately threw out the blender), put it in what could best be described as a turkey baster, and gave my wife a poop enema.  My wife had to lay on her side and hold it in for a good 10-15 minutes.

And that was it.  One treatment.  Disease gone.  _Completely_.  Now, I know c.diff is completely different from Crohn's Disease, but if people are talking about considering it for your condition, I'd have to say: get over the ick factor and give it some serious thought.  Because now, three years later, my wife hasn't had a single flare-up.


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## Artisan105

no comment


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## Hope345

DenJensen:
thank you so much for sharing the success your wife had with fecal transplant.  I have heard that so many times with regards to C. diff.       that is so great that she responded so well.     It is also something I had not considered using a young child for the sample.

Our daughter has Crohns Colitis, and we have considered the transplants as a possibility if the standard medical treatment does not work for her.   

I have been following this thread and appreciate all of the input from the forum members.   there is a lot more to consider when doing a fecal transplant than I orginally thought.   With Crohns colitis and fecal transplants, it involves daily treatments from 3 months to 6 months.    Dr Borody of Australia has helped many Crohns patients with this procedure and it is something worth considering.


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## zab

QUestions:
Does anyone know if the transplants are being done outside of trials yet? 
I saw that the Mayo Clinic talks about it as a treatment option. I was wondering if they really offer it and if so would they offer it to children?

My son is 13, he has been through so many treatments and has had such bad reactions (often worse in intensity to the illness) While he is desperate to get better & get back to school he has very little faith in the more potent drugs and even docs. (after steroid hell for nine months )He reacts to almost everything within a few day even antibiotics. SO I have trouble trying to convince him that any of the second or third tier crohns drugs would be safe for him. He already has bone tumors. 

 He has said he would rather do the fecal transfer than try imurin, or  humira, which are likely what the docs will suggest next. I dont think our docs our that open minded about the fecal transplants or even possibly LDN ?
Can someone tell me if these things are now offered anywhere or are becoming mainstream enough for a child to be treated with either?

having trouble finding time to do all the research. Widowed mom with 2 kids who want a lot of attention. Need to help my son. We live in the Maryland area, but I would travel to get him the right treatment. Want to do the right thing by him and don't want to miss. His childhood is ticking away in his bedroom. He is a bright, happy, active kid by nature and deserves more. All ideas welcome. thanks. 
Liz
Son currently on GF diet and 2000mg pentasa 2x /day b12 vitamins and magnesium.
failed flagyl, prednisone, budesonide, with horrible side effects (took 6 months to flush out ) DX 2/2012 "early Crohns: top to bottom" and enlarged lower colon which cannot be viewed as it is "cavernous". suffers from chronic constipation, inability to absorb nutrients, and extreme fatigue.


----------



## Artisan105

zab said:


> QUestions:
> Does anyone know if the transplants are being done outside of trials yet?
> I saw that the Mayo Clinic talks about it as a treatment option. I was wondering if they really offer it and if so would they offer it to children?
> 
> Yes they are available. You just have to talk to your GI doctor. You will have to do some tests prior just to make sure your donor is a match ( They will use the child's mother's feces ).
> 
> I am sorry you have to go through this... especially for your son. I will pray for you both. Hang in there. Much love & grace. :]


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## M30

An important nudge here.. For those of you thinking this is not mainstream or black magic..think again. 

I learned first hand that these are being done and being done often at my local hospital, by GI's. 

While prepping for surgery I asked my nurse if she had heard of it.. She actually had a patient who had received one just two days prior. Astonished, I asked my surgeon and he too was familiar and said GI groups perform these often. 

I know in one if the cases mentioned it was for colitis, not c diff, as I specifically asked for confirmation. 

Don't hesitate to call around.. Especially for your children. 

Never ever ever just assume doctors mainstream path of prescriptions is the way. The drugs they give us are horrific.. There is no amount of feces that could cause the side effects experienced by taking prednisone and such. 

Our body's  are amazing and leveraging a loved ones stomach bacteria should be a compelling option.


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## Hope345

M30, thank you for the post.  We are keeping this treatment in mind, and so glad to hear it has become more mainstream.    I know it works for C.diff and colitis, but would love to hear more about it working for Crohns and Crohns Colitis in our case.

Our daughter is currently on her 8th dose of REmicade, which had to be doubled, using Cortifoam and Asacol, but is symptom free!!!!!  (almost one month)   First time in 2 years.

Along the same lines (somewhat), I believe strongly in Probiotics and feel they might accomplish the same thing when used correctly and along with necessary medications. 
(But that would be on another thread  )


----------



## M30

How old is your daughter again?

Easier said than done, I completely empathize with you in opting for the biologics. 

However I think for those new to IBD  or those seeing no benefit from medications otherwise, I would strongly recommend pursuing it. 

Taking into to account short and long term side effects of medication, my gut instinct tells me the risk / reward is worth trying first, not last. 

Throughout the animal kingdom, many a turd is eaten naturally, even see dogs do it. Arbitrary inhibiting TNFs never occurs, except we humans decide to use biologics - as I did 4 months before needing surgery.

Sorry if I sound like an anti-biologics person. I'm really not. 

I just think the increase in IBD globally is likely the result of environmental ignorance and carelessness of mankind (preservatives, papermills, etc)

Trusting ourselves to pack a solution into a pill or injection is hard for me.. 

Sorry to rant. I am really, really glad your little one is in remission. That is what matters most and you are succeeding. 

Best of all, FT is always an option should you need it


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## Hope345

My daughter is 14, and started having symptoms at 12.

I believe that the biologicals play a an important role, but our hope is that fecal transplants care cure it  

It is so important to get the disease under control.  Even when I was talking with Dr Borody, he believes that the fecal transplants work well with the Remicade.   then you eventually get off of everything.   

yes, fecal transplant should be an option.  Hopefully the Gi's will start to see the success rate and recommend them.   However, I am not even sure that they can since it isnt FDA... not sure how all of that works.


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## M30

*Just read this...*

I just stumbled on this article.. had to share it 

Human Pee Added to Compost Boosts Crops:
http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/04/10/human-pee-added-to-compost-boosts-crops/


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## Hope345

told my hubby to feel free to fertilize our garden


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## ellie

Faecal transplants are definitely moving into the mainstream arena - there was an article about in Medscape in the last few days.. As for having one's own 4 year old as a donor,well, that seems about as comfortable as possible for a somewhat uncomfortable topic ( after all, she was integral to that mum not so long ago..!!)


 HD


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## M30

ellie said:


> Faecal transplants are definitely moving into the mainstream arena - there was an article about in Medscape in the last few days.. As for having one's own 4 year old as a donor,well, that seems about as comfortable as possible for a somewhat uncomfortable topic ( after all, she was integral to that mum not so long ago..!!)
> 
> 
> HD


Not sure why but stories like this are tear jerkers for me. I am so happy for you!!


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## Ihurt

I agree, I think the fecal transplants are a very good option. I knew of a lady who actually did one at home with her husbands help! This was because back then not many hospitals or doctors were performing this and insurance would Not cover it. She had a nasty case of C-diff that would not go away. She was literally dying. So I remember reading that her husband became her fecal donor and they did the transplant using the fecal matter mixed in saline. It worked! It cured her C-diff. I mean I honestly would try this before taking some of those other meds out there. They are scary and have soo many consequences it seems. ( at least for me, I have MCS(multiple chemical sensitivities), so I do not do well with drugs). The Fecal transplant sounds like the least invasive anyhow.


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## Farmwife

I find this all interesting.
My Grace started this journey downhill after 2 bouts of C. diff.
It just so happens that her GI is doing these fecal transplants.
I found out after researching this and looked at the researcher and author and saw his name.


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## Ya noy

M30 said:


> I just stumbled on this article.. had to share it
> 
> Human Pee Added to Compost Boosts Crops:
> http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/04/10/human-pee-added-to-compost-boosts-crops/


Of course you pee on your compost pile.  Doesn't everyone?  No, really. 

But if that really does come as a surprise, then you may not know about composting toilets, the contents of which are then used to fertilize, well, not veggies, but shrubs and lawns.  Yes! Really!  

Such as this self-contained unit from Envirolet.  






These have been used in remote cabins for many,many years, are virtually odorless, and require very little maintenance.  You just add a little sawdust and pump or crank the handle once after each use, and they can accommodate 6-10 people a day, for months on end, depending on the model selected.  After a few months of composting, the waste is converted into fertilizer, to throw on your shrubs.  See link for more info. http://www.envirolet.com/enwatsel.html

For those who cringe at composting their waste, there's incinerating toilets as well.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incinerating_toilet


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## pungineer

hugh said:


> _“Commensal microorganisms are not ignored by the intestinal immune system. Recent evidence shows that commensals actively participate in maintaining intestinal immune homeostasis by interacting with intestinal epithelial cells and delivering tolerogenic signals that are transmitted to the underlying cells of the immune system.”_[2]
> 
> Get it? The commensals are what prevents the T cell response, the absence of which promotes immune reaction
> 
> Add it to the list


I would appreciate the reference for your quote.

Something you have not addressed is that Crohn’s is not limited to the alimentary canal. It can also affect the skin, eyes, and synovial tissue (Ankylosing Spondylitis). The one thing these locations have in common is epithelial cells. I think the root cause is not a T cell response to intestinal bacteria, but to a self antigen on certain epithelial cells.

T cells are created with the ability to attack cells with a wide range of antigens, including the body’s own cells. To prevent a systemic autoimmune attack, T cells strongly attracted to “self” are killed in the thymus. The rest are released into the body, where they must not attack the body or the beneficial microbiota in the body. Since the thymus cannot screen against all self antigens on all cell types, much less the microbiotal antigens, there must be a second level of T cell mediation.

I think the initial autoimmune response may even be beneficial. It alerts the body to an inappropriate T cell response that needs to be fixed. It would be logical that the colon and microbiome are the primary source of T cell mediation in the periphery. However, if the correct microbiota aren’t present, the autoimmune response continues. The result is an autoimmune disease.

If this is true, two important points are:

1. Auto immune diseases are not caused by the presence of bad bacteria, but the absence of good bacteria (and/or other parts of the microbiome).

2. The auto immune mediation is not limited to IBD. (Wen L, Ley RE, Volchkov PY, Stranges PB, Avanesyan L, Stonebraker AC, Hu C, Wong FS, Szot GL, Bluestone JA, Gordon JI, Chervonsky AV (October 2008). "Innate immunity and intestinal microbiota in the development of Type 1 diabetes". Nature 455 (7216): 1109–13. doi:10.1038/nature07336. PMC 2574766. PMID 18806780)

Unfortunately we can’t yet tell what part(s) of the microbiome are missing, and it probably varies from person to person depending on the self antigen and T cell response. Matching fecal transplants is more complicated than matching organ transplants. In this case, it is a transplant to prevent the body from rejecting itself.

The microbiota are primarily inherited from a person’s mother. However, half of the Major Histocompatability Complex and other antigens are inherited from the father. This could result in an inadequate microbiome in some people and explain the non-Mendelian inheritance of auto immune diseases. It also implies that the father might be the best FMT donor for his children (provided he passes donor testing). 

I would like to see a trial with FMT between identical twins where only one has IBD. If an inadequate microbiome is the root cause, this study could prove it because many of the other variables would be eliminated.


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## hugh

@pungineer
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2920680/

The interactions are so complex that i doubt we will ever fully understand them,
rather than micromanage everything we should let our bodies maintain homeostasis by not interfering (with bad food, drugs etc) unless essential,



pungineer said:


> 1. Auto immune diseases are not caused by the presence of bad bacteria, but the absence of good bacteria (and/or other parts of the microbiome).


My thoughts exactly......
That and a breakdown in the mucosal layer-
_" It is not clear, however, whether this is a direct interaction, as epithelial cells are covered by a mucus layer that imposes a physical and electrically charged barrier to bacteria." _

But there's more money in treatment than yougurt :ybatty::ybatty:


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## Sue-2009

What?!  Am I reading this right?!  Can someone clarify!?  Is this true!?  For Crohns Disease!.  Am I reading correctly?  Fecal transplant for Crohns?!  Seriously!? Sue


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## wildbill_52280

Sue-2009 said:


> What?!  Am I reading this right?!  Can someone clarify!?  Is this true!?  For Crohns Disease!.  Am I reading correctly?  Fecal transplant for Crohns?!  Seriously!? Sue



7 clinical trials right now all around the world including the united states on both forms of IBD crohn's and UC. they will be completed by the end of 2014, possibly bringing the treatment mainstream by 2015. thats a hopeful estimate, its likely to take a few more years then that, but hard to say. and thats if they are proven to be successful for crohn's disease, which in smaller preliminary studies, they have been.


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## Sue-2009

What is the success rate?


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## Traumanurse

Oh my David! I'm still laughing out loud, and it feels great! I'm actually imagining it the way you wrote it. Too funny!


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## Beach

Saw this evening information about a letter to be published in the New England Journal of Medicine, today i believe, from a Dr. Trevor Van Schooneveld concerning his review of fecal transplant study.   

"'Poop transplants': How well do they really work?"

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/05/29/poop-transplants-how-well-do-really-work/?test=latestnews


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## kiny

pungineer said:


> I think the root cause is not a T cell response to intestinal bacteria,* but to a self antigen on certain epithelial cells*.


There's plenty of reasons why this doesn't make any sense:

-You would have inflammation all over the organ, like with UC, you don't with crohn's disease. Crohn's disease is patchy like intestinal TB. UC looks very different from Crohn's disease. Crohn's disease has skip lesions you see in TB too often, same type of apthous ulcers. It looks nothing like a self-antigen respone. It looks like an infection, it's transmular all through the organ, but it's confined to specific spots and parts of the organ, nothing like UC at all, it's a very different disease. 

It's not just the difference between ileum / colon involvement. UC is focused on the inner lumen, it's not transmular, people dont get the fistulas, they don't have skip lesions like in intestinal TB and crohn's disease. It's totally nothing like a self-antigen response.

-You don't have a self-antigen reaction in crohn's disease like one that is readily found in UC

-Macrophage penetrating antibiotics work for crohn's disease. They don't seem to cure people, but they consistently show results

-Genetic predisposition actually point to bacterial involvement. NOD2 and ATG16L1 are involved in bacterial sensing and autophagy




Saying that bacteria aren't involved is throwing the only concrete evidence about crohn's disease overboard, the genetic predisposition. 6 out of 8 loci in crohn's disease overlap with Leprosy loci. It might not be the gut flora, but bacteria are certainly involved.


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## kiny

pungineer said:


> It would be* logical that the colon and microbiome are the primary source of T cell mediation in the periphery*. However, if the correct microbiota aren’t present, the autoimmune response continues. The result is an autoimmune disease.


Why would they be the primary source. If the primary source of inflammation is the indigenous microbiome how come people with crohn's disease often have little to no inflammation in their colon. You'd expect to have the most inflammation where the highest concentration of gut flora is, that's the colon, crohn's disease is primarily the ileum.

You don't even need the microbiome to have intestinal inflammation in the small intestine.

-Intestinal TB has nothing to do with the microbiome, and there's inflammation in the small intestine. 

-Ptb has nothing to do with the microbiome, and there's inflammation in the small intestine


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## wildbill_52280

Beach said:


> Saw this evening information about a letter to be published in the New England Journal of Medicine, today i believe, from a Dr. Trevor Van Schooneveld concerning his review of fecal transplant study.
> 
> "'Poop transplants': How well do they really work?"
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/05/29/poop-transplants-how-well-do-really-work/?test=latestnews


there is alot more evidence then just this study, this is spin press trying to create doubt out of a great study.

here's the deal, treating c diff with antibiotics can be profitable, so there going to be reports like this causing doubt on a super cheap and effective treatment that competes with antibiotics.

i vaguely recall it costs like 1000.00 a week in antibiotics to keep someon e alive with c diff.

either that or this person is just talking nonsense. how much further doubt can you draw onto a well designed scientific study? after they study it, there should be very little room for doubt.

its funny they tried to suggest the fact that the study was stopped early to mean they somehow messed it up or something, but they stopped it early to give the people on vancomycin the fecal transplants, because they obviouly worked so fast and so completly.

total spin and misinterpretation of the facts.


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## Beach

wildbill_52280 said:


> there is alot more evidence then just this study, this is spin press trying to create doubt out of a great study.
> 
> here's the deal, treating c diff with antibiotics can be profitable, so there going to be reports like this causing doubt on a super cheap and effective treatment that competes with antibiotics.
> 
> i vaguely recall it costs like 1000.00 a week in antibiotics to keep someon e alive with c diff.
> 
> either that or this person is just talking nonsense. how much further doubt can you draw onto a well designed scientific study? after they study it, there should be very little room for doubt.
> 
> its funny they tried to suggest the fact that the study was stopped early to mean they somehow messed it up or something, but they stopped it early to give the people on vancomycin the fecal transplants, because they obviouly worked so fast and so completly.
> 
> total spin and misinterpretation of the facts.


Oh!  I was a bit tired last night when I read the article.  The impression I got from it is that the doctors that did the review thought well of fecal transplants.  The procedure got results that worked for many.  It was thought though that the study could have been done better, and slightly different results might be found with a larger study group.  

In some respects his criticism is standard protocol.  I don't read all that many studies, but of those that I do often mentioned at the end is a "but".  If I was to guess, in the published letter Dr. Schooneveld is trying to set the stage for a larger study to look into fecal transplants.  Whether that is needed is left up to interpretation.  

Probably in 20 to 30 years from now it will be said that there is a clearer eye on the topic of fecal transplants.  Yes, it is true I'm afraid, I have an optimistic personality.


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## M30

ft ftw


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## ***Lisa***

This is all so interesting! We need to keep tabs on these trials.


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## pungineer

kiny said:


> There's plenty of reasons why this doesn't make any sense:
> 
> -You would have inflammation all over the organ, like with UC, you don't with crohn's disease. Crohn's disease is patchy like intestinal TB. UC looks very different from Crohn's disease. Crohn's disease has skip lesions you see in TB too often, same type of apthous ulcers. It looks nothing like a self-antigen respone. It looks like an infection, it's transmular all through the organ, but it's confined to specific spots and parts of the organ, nothing like UC at all, it's a very different disease.
> 
> It's not just the difference between ileum / colon involvement. UC is focused on the inner lumen, it's not transmular, people dont get the fistulas, they don't have skip lesions like in intestinal TB and crohn's disease. It's totally nothing like a self-antigen response.
> 
> -You don't have a self-antigen reaction in crohn's disease like one that is readily found in UC
> 
> -Macrophage penetrating antibiotics work for crohn's disease. They don't seem to cure people, but they consistently show results
> 
> -Genetic predisposition actually point to bacterial involvement. NOD2 and ATG16L1 are involved in bacterial sensing and autophagy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saying that bacteria aren't involved is throwing the only concrete evidence about crohn's disease overboard, the genetic predisposition. 6 out of 8 loci in crohn's disease overlap with Leprosy loci. It might not be the gut flora, but bacteria are certainly involved.



Thank you for responding to my post. Although I agree with your observations, I’m not sure I know what your ultimate point is. It seems you are saying that Crohn’s disease is not an autoimmune disease, which is not anything I have read before. The treatments are almost all based on suppressing an autoimmune response.

I don’t know that there is a definitive appearance of tissue subject to an autoimmune response, e.g. diabetes, M.S., etc. A general inflammation assumes that the antigens the T cells are responding to exist on every cell. This may be true of UC. However, the antigen for Crohn’s would be different. Crohn’s can also attack skin, eyes, and synovial tissue in Ankylosing Spondylitis. All have epithelial cells, and not every cell in an organ is a clone of every other cell. Multiple cells in the fetus differentiate into different organs. Some may have the antigen and others would not.

I did not say bacteria are not involved. I said that the presence of certain bacteria is not the root cause. As in c-dif, the absence of the correct microbiome might allow the overgrowth of bacteria that make symptoms worse. This would explain why antibiotics sometimes help, but do not cure. Genetic factors could have a direct affect on the microbiome. However, genetics are not the root cause either. When one identical twin has IBD, the other would have to have it as well if it were genetic. This is not so. Understanding why or seeing if an FMT would be a cure in this situation could provide vital information.


----------



## pungineer

kiny said:


> Why would they be the primary source. If the primary source of inflammation is the indigenous microbiome how come people with crohn's disease often have little to no inflammation in their colon. You'd expect to have the most inflammation where the highest concentration of gut flora is, that's the colon, crohn's disease is primarily the ileum.
> 
> You don't even need the microbiome to have intestinal inflammation in the small intestine.
> 
> -Intestinal TB has nothing to do with the microbiome, and there's inflammation in the small intestine.
> 
> -Ptb has nothing to do with the microbiome, and there's inflammation in the small intestine




It would logical for it to be the primary source because the thymus cannot delete T-cells with high avidity for the entities in the microbiome. The thymus also allows T-cells with moderate avidity for self antigens to be released into the periphery. The mediation for the T-cells with avidity for the entities in the microbiome would probably have to be in close proximity to microbiome antigens. Mediation for other T-cells would occur there as well just for efficiency.

Again, the indigenous microbiome is not the source of the inflammation. It is an insufficient indigenous microbiome that is unable to mediate the autoimmune response of the T-cells.

If Crohn’s were intestinal tb, I think the bacterium would have been found by now, as well as a cure. I wish you were right.


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## kiny

Avidity relates to binding strength, it has nothing to do with T cell being present in the intestine of people.

You need to explain how those lymphocytes are now in intestinal tissue, and if it's not through an APC, explain why they're there. And for an APC to activate you need an antigen. And if you don't have an antigen, you have no APC and you have no T cells.

Where do you suggest T cells are coming from if it isn't from the lymphatics? They just wander about and just all decide to pay a visit to the intestine or something?


----------



## kiny

pungineer said:


> The mediation for the T-cells with avidity for the entities in the microbiome would probably have to be in close proximity to microbiome antigens. Mediation for other T-cells would occur there as well just for efficiency.


T cells don't just wander about, they're not just sitting in tissue sleeping, that's the job of neutrophils and macrophages, T cell are activated in lymphatics, they don't have "proximity" or "efficiency". They get activated during the adaptive immune response, and to activate them you need an antigen, and that antigen is either a self-antigen, in the cause of an autoimmune reaction, which has never been found in CD, or it's a bacterial antigen that makes it into the lymphatics through an APC.

So when you say that bacteria aren't involved, or that they have "avidity" for the microbiome, you make 0 sense. There is a particular antigen that activates a T cell. And if the whole microbiome would be the antigen, you would have inflammation everywhere, which in CD doesn't happen, you don't have inflammation everywhere, and if it's a particular bacteria from the indigenous flora, then it's not longer part of the microbiome, it's now a pathogen.


----------



## kiny

pungineer said:


> It seems you are saying that Crohn’s disease is not an autoimmune disease, which is not anything I have read before.


Really, start reading more:

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2810%2960282-6/fulltext

The *(mis)labelling of Crohn's as an autoimmune disease* 

http://jem.rupress.org/content/206/9/1839.full

Although CD is immune mediated, it is *not an autoimmune disease*, as the immunological process appears to be triggered by the content of the gut lumen rather than a self-antigen.



To have an autoimmune disease you need a self-antigen, like in UC, that's not  there in CD. And if was there you would have inflammation all over the affected organ...like...in UC...and you don't in crohn's disease.

Repeating something 20 times doesn't make it any more true.


----------



## kiny

pungineer said:


> Genetic factors could have a direct affect on the microbiome.


And they don't in CD, NOD2, ATG16L1, VDR and many others are related to handling of intracellular bacteria, they have nothing to do with the indigenous gut flora. 

If there were genetic factors that had a direct effect on the microbiome, the most obvious organ that would be involved would be the colon, and in most people with CD, the disease is located in the small intestine, which has much lower bacterial load than the colon.


----------



## kiny

pungineer said:


> Understanding why or seeing if an FMT would be a *cure* in this situation could provide vital information.


And if these experiments worsen crohn's disease in people?


----------



## wildbill_52280

kiny said:


> And if these experiments worsen crohn's disease in people?



Dude where have you been? you know borody has already tried Fecal transplants in patients decades ago with no bad effects, and most of them improve, no sign of disease, and no need for medications. as far as we can tell, they are cured. we dont have to speculate what might happen, when we already know what HAS happened, people got better. i thought you were on top of every scientific advancement in IBD?

and in the latest study just completed we are seeing the same results, no one is getting worse, and most get better. ITs true for ulcerative colitis and crohn's disease. that's why larger studies are being conducted, its been shown to be safe.

To everyone reading this thread here is some info on fecal transplants http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=52400


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## kiny

It's possible that many people with crohn's disease who aren't followed up regularly, or people who spend large amounts of time in hospitals, have enterococcus or c diff or other secondary infections. If you give them a stool transplant you would help them get rid of the secondary infection. But that doesn't mean it's a treatment for crohn's disease, it's a brute force method for people who should have been treated for the secondary infection with traditional means.


----------



## Ihurt

I do not know much about the fecal transplant, but I did talk to my gastro doc about it. My gastro doc is at one of the top hospitals here ( a Huge teaching University Hospital) and one of the only hospitals here that offer stem cell transplants for Crohns disease. Well I brought up the whole fecal transplant and he did say they are still doing trials right now. They originally have used it for complicated cases of C-diff and that had a very good success rate. He said they are now doing some trials on people who have UC and IBD and he said eventually they will be doing trials on IBS as well most likely.  He said depending on the results of the trials, if all goes well, fecal transplants will likely become more widely available one day in the future... But he did say that there are some areas of concern. He said that there is a chance that the donor person's fecal matter could contain bacteria that another person ( the recipient) would not react well too. This is a possibility. We are all built differently, where one person could live fine with a certain bacteria in them, where you put it in another person, their immune system may not react well. But all in all, I think it is a good thing. I mean if it turns out that it helps a lot of people, or even cures people, it is good. I mean right now all there is to depend on is toxic drugs that most assuredly are going to have negative effects on the whole body in the long run.


----------



## wildbill_52280

Ihurt said:


> I do not know much about the fecal transplant, but I did talk to my gastro doc about it. My gastro doc is at one of the top hospitals here ( a Huge teaching University Hospital) and one of the only hospitals here that offer stem cell transplants for Crohns disease. Well I brought up the whole fecal transplant and he did say they are still doing trials right now. They originally have used it for complicated cases of C-diff and that had a very good success rate. He said they are now doing some trials on people who have UC and IBD and he said eventually they will be doing trials on IBS as well most likely.  He said depending on the results of the trials, if all goes well, fecal transplants will likely become more widely available one day in the future... But he did say that there are some areas of concern. He said that there is a chance that the donor person's fecal matter could contain bacteria that another person ( the recipient) would not react well too. This is a possibility. We are all built differently, where one person could live fine with a certain bacteria in them, where you put it in another person, their immune system may not react well. But all in all, I think it is a good thing. I mean if it turns out that it helps a lot of people, or even cures people, it is good. I mean right now all there is to depend on is toxic drugs that most assuredly are going to have negative effects on the whole body in the long run.



people with crohn's disease already  have  10x the amount of pathogenic bacteria compared to healthy controls, and harbor pathogenic species that healthy control's do not have. the concern about getting more new pathogens, is a good one, but nothing to critical, we already have tons of that stuff inside us. its not the kind of concern that should stop us from studying or doing fecal transplants, especially when we can easily test the stool and select healthy donors to prevent anything like this from occuring.


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## rollinstone

Wildbill, have you had fecal transfer before?


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## M30

I haven't. But I have had the defacto treatment.


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## wildbill_52280

Joshuaaa said:


> Wildbill, have you had fecal transfer before?


not yet, but if everything goes as planned in about 5 weeks from now i will be doing it.


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## zab

kiny said:


> It's possible that many people with crohn's disease who aren't followed up regularly, or people who spend large amounts of time in hospitals, have enterococcus or c diff or other secondary infections. If you give them a stool transplant you would help them get rid of the secondary infection. But that doesn't mean it's a treatment for crohn's disease, it's a brute force method for people who should have been treated for the secondary infection with traditional means.


I think the term "brute force method" is a bit much here. Is it possible your emotions are getting in the way of seeing this treatment as viable? I dont think this is only for people who aren't followed up on regularly. A lot of people are actually damaged from traditional treatments available to them. Instead of getting better the drugs make them sicker. As a mother of a child who has had bad reactions to just about every drug ( including antibiotics, and all the Crohns drugs he has tried so far, except Pentasa which does nothing as far as I can tell) this option looks much less invasive and less risky then the side effects of the next level of drugs we are looking at. I assume you are so defensive because you have found some treatment that has allowed you to experience remission. Please keep in mind  that not everyone has, and the same treatment does not work for everyone.  I am grateful that researchers are doing everything they can to think outside the box to make strides to help   all the people who are suffering from Crohns/colitis for whatever reason they have it. Perhaps you don't know all the facts on the subject, even the researchers don't yet.  It is not just about Cdif. I know someone who is working on this study, there are so many types of flora in any given GI tract, medicine cant replace what is lost  in a compromised system and neither can probiotics. So far this si the closest thing. And it may be better than you think. Please don't judge people that are still seeking answers just because you may have found one that works for you.


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## ***Lisa***

wildbill_52280 said:


> not yet, but if everything goes as planned in about 5 weeks from now i will be doing it.


Why are you waiting five weeks? Are you waiting for a donor?


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## Ihurt

I agree with you, I think it should be easy enough for them to culture the stool in order to see what types of bacteria are present in it. I mean I really think we are going to see that fecal transplants are going to become a normal and widely used treatment in the not so far off future. It has already helped lots of people. I know I read of a lady who was suffering a nasty C-diff infection and she was literally at deaths door. I mean the traditional antibiotics used to eradicate it were not working. She and her husband did the fecal transplant at home via enema! I am assuming there was no hospital where they lived or anywhere near them that did the transplant. This lady went from being so very sick to being able to eat and not having diarrhea anymore within days of doing this. So there has to be something to it. I myself would rather have it done in a hospital, but hey, if I was in a situation where I was so sick and nothing was working, I would do it! What have you got to lose at that point?? 

I mean sure, there can be side effects or adverse effects, but there also is with medications too( probably worse side effects with the medications in my opinion). I think doctors have to start thinking "outside" of the box when it comes to treating chronic illness, especially chronic illnesses that they do not know much about( like crohns and other various chronic illnesses). 













wildbill_52280 said:


> people with crohn's disease already  have  10x the amount of pathogenic bacteria compared to healthy controls, and harbor pathogenic species that healthy control's do not have. the concern about getting more new pathogens, is a good one, but nothing to critical, we already have tons of that stuff inside us. its not the kind of concern that should stop us from studying or doing fecal transplants, especially when we can easily test the stool and select healthy donors to prevent anything like this from occuring.


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## M30

wildbill_52280 said:


> not yet, but if everything goes as planned in about 5 weeks from now i will be doing it.


That is awesome! I hope it goes perfectly!!! Good luck buddy.


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## barbarian

Hi everybody, and thanks for the forum. I was very committed to the idea of a fecal transplant, and had researched it for a few years. Dr Thomas Borody, at the CDD in five dock, Sydney. Had a really  bad relapse/visit to the hospital over christmas, and realised I had nothing to loose. Did it end of March (you have to do a course of antibiotics and the first infusion is done when a colonoscopy is performed. No 'Yuk" factor at all! You can have donor or your family/own donor. Was very disappointed to suffer a further relapse end of may. Still think it has great potential, and if you can try it do. there is nothing to lose, has the potential to get you off all drugs/side effects, and of course give you back your life. I still believe it was just bad timing for me, and I still have my new "friends" on board willing to help me through. I havn't given up yet. (has UC//crohn's for 20 years)


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## Trysha

The discussion between Pungineer and Kiny has been most stimulating to read.
Thank you both for the discussions.
It has given me pause for much thought.


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## Ihurt

Hmm, I am quite surprised they would have you do antibiotics before the transfusion. That in my opinion would hinder the whole process. The antibiotics would kill most of the good bugs being introduced into the gut. In any event, I am sorry to hear it did not work out great for you. I believe I also read you have it done a few times, not only once. I thought it was like 3 transfusions over a period of a month or two. Don't quote me on that, but I remember reading that you have a better outcome this way.











barbarian said:


> Hi everybody, and thanks for the forum. I was very committed to the idea of a fecal transplant, and had researched it for a few years. Dr Thomas Borody, at the CDD in five dock, Sydney. Had a really  bad relapse/visit to the hospital over christmas, and realised I had nothing to loose. Did it end of March (you have to do a course of antibiotics and the first infusion is done when a colonoscopy is performed. No 'Yuk" factor at all! You can have donor or your family/own donor. Was very disappointed to suffer a further relapse end of may. Still think it has great potential, and if you can try it do. there is nothing to lose, has the potential to get you off all drugs/side effects, and of course give you back your life. I still believe it was just bad timing for me, and I still have my new "friends" on board willing to help me through. I havn't given up yet. (has UC//crohn's for 20 years)


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## wildbill_52280

barbarian said:


> Hi everybody, and thanks for the forum. I was very committed to the idea of a fecal transplant, and had researched it for a few years. Dr Thomas Borody, at the CDD in five dock, Sydney. Had a really  bad relapse/visit to the hospital over christmas, and realised I had nothing to loose. Did it end of March (you have to do a course of antibiotics and the first infusion is done when a colonoscopy is performed. No 'Yuk" factor at all! You can have donor or your family/own donor. Was very disappointed to suffer a further relapse end of may. Still think it has great potential, and if you can try it do. there is nothing to lose, has the potential to get you off all drugs/side effects, and of course give you back your life. I still believe it was just bad timing for me, and I still have my new "friends" on board willing to help me through. I havn't given up yet. (has UC//crohn's for 20 years)


thanks for your story barbarian. since we dont know everything about FT yet like how many transplants it takes to reach a remission and what the dosage should be for each enema etc, im hoping we will soon be able to explain why some maintain long remissions after doing fecal transplants(up to 13 years), and why we have stories such as your own.

how many enemas did you do? and how frequently did you do them? 
did you change your diet while doing them? its suggested a high fiber diet is essential for it to take hold. some people go on SCD while doing them.


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## Beach

Thought this an interesting writing by psychiatrist Emily Deans.  It discusses a study in which one group was given probiotics and how that was found to improve anxiety and depression symptoms.  It additionally has a short mention about fecal transplants and the effect the procedure could have on improving brain health.       

"Gut and Brain Again"

http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/2013/06/gut-and-brain-again.html


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## wildbill_52280

Beach said:


> Thought this an interesting writing by psychiatrist Emily Deans.  It discusses a study in which one group was given probiotics and how that was found to improve anxiety and depression symptoms.  It additionally has a short mention about fecal transplants and the effect the procedure could have on improving brain health.
> 
> "Gut and Brain Again"
> 
> http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/2013/06/gut-and-brain-again.html


i have a strict dietary regimen. therefore, any change in the pattern allows me to come up with good hypothesis as to why some function of my body seems to change and how dietary variables affect my body. when i eat certain nuts which tend to have strange organisms on them fungus and bacteria etc., it can lead to severe depression and mood changes.  i wonder if it is these organisms that are having the effect. i now believe some psychiatric disorders may have something to do with bacteria.

in ibd, we may have a reduced capacity to deal with bacteria, and this leads to chronic inflammation, chronic enteric infections leading to diarhea. i wonder if any other damage to the gut allows some of these organisms or the chemicals they produce to get into the brain. but they may not have to as your gut itself creates neurotranmitters and even bacteria that live in your gut can signal to your brain along the vagus nerve.


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## hugh

did anyone see this post over in the diet section
http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?p=676449#post676449

link to this article
*Bacterial molecules may prevent inflammatory bowel disease*
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gen...ecules_may_prevent_inflammatory_bowel_disease

"_Common molecules made by bacteria in the gut may act as chill pills for the immune system. Molecules secreted by intestinal bacteria work to prevent misplaced immune attacks in inflammatory bowel diseases like colitis, a new study finds._"

Early days but suggests that an absence of certain bacteria plays a part in IBD

Have to disagree with the proposal (in the article about the report) that more fibre is the way to go, feeding bad bacteria won't help,


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## wildbill_52280

hugh said:


> did anyone see this post over in the diet section
> http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?p=676449#post676449
> 
> link to this article
> *Bacterial molecules may prevent inflammatory bowel disease*
> http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gen...ecules_may_prevent_inflammatory_bowel_disease
> 
> "_Common molecules made by bacteria in the gut may act as chill pills for the immune system. Molecules secreted by intestinal bacteria work to prevent misplaced immune attacks in inflammatory bowel diseases like colitis, a new study finds._"
> 
> Early days but suggests that an absence of certain bacteria plays a part in IBD
> 
> Have to disagree with the proposal (in the article about the report) that more fibre is the way to go, feeding bad bacteria won't help,


im not trying to dismiss your post as insignificant, but this is really old news about butyric acids role in the intestine and immune function. what i was hoping for was for them to examine  other molecules these bacteria may make. butyric acid seems to have been now obviously beneficial to things likes intestinal permeability and some roles in regulating inflammation. 

to me it seems pointless to re-establish its beneficial role. lets try restoring these butyric acid producing bacteria that are extinct in the intestines of IBD patients with a fecal transplant and se if it corrects the dysregulated inflammation(immune response).

 the  time for Fecal microbiota transplant for IBD has seriously come. no more collecting small facts we already know, scientists sometimes go overboard with the irrelevant fact collecting, and the re-confirmation of old facts.  we have enough evidence to supprt trying fecal transplants, lets get-r-done.

http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=52400


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## Dave_Tampa

Hi all.  A few of you have mentioned Dr. R David Shepard in Tampa.  I am actually a patient of his.  I have Crohn's and have undergone the fecal transplant treatments in conjunction with taking Low Dose Naltrexone ("LDN").  I believe that they would work for UC as well.  I would highly recommend you consider having Dr. Shepard treat you (or finding a G.I. in your area that uses the same combination of FT treatments and LDN).  I had excellent results.  It does take a few weeks for the colon to recolonize with the good bacteria but once it took, I it was a game changer for me.  I also take VSL#3 and Saccharomyces boulardii daily for priobiotic maintenance.

I have seen many doctors over the years, including the top doctors in Boston.  They simply do not compare to the the guidance I have received from Dr. Shepard.  He is a great down to earth guy with innovative thinking and is not afraid to use natural treatments in conjunction with western medicine to get the job done.  

I just thought I would share my experience.  There are other options out there than having to use immune suppressant drugs.


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## xmdmom

Dave_Tampa
Where has your inflammation been located?I'd like to know if can help for small intestine Crohn's.
thanks!


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## Dave_Tampa

xmdmom,

My inflammation has been historically lower left sided.  The diagnosis was UC for quite some time.  However, then the dignosis changed to Crohn's once they saw the inflammation spread a little higher and run a little deeper in the tissue.  I would think you have a good shot of it helping.  Especially when administered through a colonoscopy procedure and adding the use of LDN.   I had it administered through a colonoscopy and endoscopy.  So it pretty much lined my entire intestines with good bacteria.

For me it made a lot of sense.  The doctor had me on 2-3 weeks of potent antibiotics to kill all the bad bacteria (of course some good was lost as well).  But immediately after the course of antibiotics the good bacteria was administered through the procedures to help recolonize my entire intestines.  Out with the bad in with the good.


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## Tamas

fecaltransplant.org/fecal-transplants-how-to-do-it-yourself-video/

Enough talk. See a success story of a guy who is now symptom free for 2 years after a DIY  transplant procedure and left behind 12 years UC.

:goodluck: for everyone!


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## i_eat_constantly

BUMP. 

where did everyone who ACTUALLY DID THIS, go? i don't care as much about the theories and arguing right now as much as people who actually gave this a try. what were your long term results? can you provide more blunt detail? how did you get that thing up there! i cant imagine how i will do all this.

i saw the video in the above post recently before finding this thread and was already about to begin FMT tomorrow. 3x a week, for 5 wks, as a start

hope to see success


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## Tamas

Finding a good donor is the hardest part of the procedure I presume. It seems like you did it, tested or untested it doesn't really matter if you trust him / her. Please keep on posting and share us the symptoms you have. Thanks.


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## i_eat_constantly

unfortunately, a ctscan recently picked up some issues as i was ramping up with this alternative. i have an abscess in my small intestine and have to handle that, THEN get on remicade/mp6 and get in some kind of remission before i can experiment with FMT unfortunately. this would be the most effective way to do it. forced to bide my time for now!


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## sir.clausin

I met with my GI today, sayin that I will start FMT any day now, he still say that it´s too early and that there are no evidence blablabla.

So I told him, like I did before, that there ARE studies for FMT and crohns and that I would send him the links. Are they all in this thread? 

i_eat_constantly: Crohns in the ileum I presume? Any other problems, h pylori or parasies? Please tell about your FMT-story


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## i_eat_constantly

sir clausin,

i am at mt. sinai, and it has been difficult to get tested parasites or anything besides crohns. i will check if tested for h. pylori, is there anything else?

i did a stool test yesterday and im not really sure what to test for, none of these doctor's seem to be looking for anything


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## Samantha L

Dave_Tampa said:


> xmdmom,
> 
> My inflammation has been historically lower left sided.  The diagnosis was UC for quite some time.  However, then the dignosis changed to Crohn's once they saw the inflammation spread a little higher and run a little deeper in the tissue.  I would think you have a good shot of it helping.  Especially when administered through a colonoscopy procedure and adding the use of LDN.   I had it administered through a colonoscopy and endoscopy.  So it pretty much lined my entire intestines with good bacteria.
> 
> For me it made a lot of sense.  The doctor had me on 2-3 weeks of potent antibiotics to kill all the bad bacteria (of course some good was lost as well).  But immediately after the course of antibiotics the good bacteria was administered through the procedures to help recolonize my entire intestines.  Out with the bad in with the good.



@Dave_Tampa
I'm glad to hear that you like Dr. Shepard. I'm having a consultation with him soon. My questions to you:  how many infusions did you have, did you use your own donor poop (if not, did Dr. Shepard use fresh or frozen poop) and how can you tell if your gut is colonized with the good bacteria.  I'm also from the Boston area.  Thanks.


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## Rocking on

I had the fecal transplant procedure through the Mayo last March.  I have Crohns, but the intense pain i was having was caused by cdiff. I tried all the antibiotics but it kept coming back.

My wife was going to be the donor, as she has always been healthy as a horse.  But to our surprise, she tested positive for some little bug and I couldnt use her.  Instead, the Mayo has some anonymous donors who have been screened, and I had to go that route.

I am sad to say that i dont think it worked.  Within a week the pain was back and i was back on antibiotics.  However, after that course the cdiff appeared to be clear for a few months.  I did have positive tests again for cdiff.  As a result, i have been forced to stay on low does of flagyl on a daily basis.


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## sir.clausin

Rockin on: Wow, that´s odd! Can´t you use another donor? Maybe the donors you tried with doesn´t have what you need in the bacteriadepartment?

Where is your crohns located? What other meds are you using?

I would like to think that FMT, providing that it´s used a couple of times, works in almost everyone and with a 100% hitrate. I never heard of anyone where it did not work.


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## Austin2112

Dave_tampa it's been a long time since you posted to this thread. Does the doctor in Tampa still do fmt?


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