# Why I take vitamin K2



## Beach (Apr 30, 2012)

The other day I wrote some information on the sight about a little known supplement called vitamin K2.  That post caught David's eye, who then suggested that I write more on what I know of K2.  I thought that a good idea.  K2 is an interesting nutrient that should be of help to others.   It certainly seems to have helped improve my health since I began taking it.  

Vitamin K2 has been mentioned by some in writings as a forgotten nutrient.  That came about in several ways, partially due to vitamin K1's blood clotting abilities over shadowing K2.  When Vitamin K was first discovered nearly 100 years ago it was realized it came in two forms, K1 (phylloquione) and K2 (menaquinone).  Most research work was done on K1, the plant form of vitamin K.  K2 was largely forgotten, thought to be little different than K1, used for similar functions in the body.  

K2 was also largely removed from our diets when modern agriculture took over.  Animals that are fed grains for most of their lives tend to produce little vitamin K2.  While farm animals that roam farm lands, collect foods from pastures will have a higher vitamin K2 content in their milk, organ meats, and fats.    

It wasn't until the 1970s that researchers from Harvard University discovered vitamin K2 had many separate uses in the body from its cousin K1.  Originally it was found that K2 played a critical role in preventing osteoporosis and dental cavities.  Since then new additional health beneficial findings for K2 are being discovered.    

Years earlier, in the 1930s, researcher and world explorer Dentist Weston Price set out to observe primitive people.  He wanted to find out why cavities were rare in those societies, along with why many diseases that effected modern humans where found infrequently in these peoples.  Weston Price went on to write about his observations in his book:

"Nutrition and Physical Degeneration"             

http://www.amazon.com/Nutrition-Phy...4206/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335789377&sr=8-1



> New Expanded 8th edition with new photos and text.
> 
> An epic study demonstrating the importance of whole food nutrition, and the degeneration and destruction that comes from a diet of processed foods.
> 
> For nearly 10 years, Weston Price and his wife traveled around the world in search of the secret to health. Instead of looking at people afflicted with disease symptoms, this highly-respected dentist and dental researcher chose to focus on healthy individuals, and challenged himself to understand how they achieved such amazing health. Dr. Price traveled to hundreds of cities in a total of 14 different countries in his search to find healthy people. He investigated some of the most remote areas in the world. He observed perfect dental arches, minimal tooth decay, high immunity to tuberculosis and overall excellent health in those groups of people who ate their indigenous foods. He found when these people were introduced to modernized foods, such as white flour, white sugar, refined vegetable oils and canned goods, signs of degeneration quickly became quite evident. Dental caries, deformed jaw structures, crooked teeth, arthritis and a low immunity to tuberculosis became rampant amongst them. Dr. Price documented this ancestral wisdom including hundreds of photos in his book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.


A key finding Weston Price made was of a mysterious substance he dubbed Activator X.  Activator X was found in foods primitives cherished for good health, and reproduction abilities. The unknown substance was found in fish eggs, egg yokes, organ meats, fat from animals and in the milk of animals that ate green pasture grass.  

With that discovery Price was able to concentrate Activator X from grass fed cows butter, and use this substance to treat dental patients.  He found that Activator X was able to stop dental cavities from forming.  In experiments he showed that saliva from patients that did not take Activator X, and ate a modern diet, would pull minerals out of teeth leaving them weaker.  These patients would also have a significantly higher bacteria content in their saliva.  Patients that took Activator X would often remineralize their teeth making them stronger, along with having a dramatically lower saliva bacteria content.  Cavities became rare for those that took Activator X. 

Today it is believed that Weston Price's discovery, Activator X, is vitamin K2.

And since the 1970s researchers have gone on to find many other uses for vitamin K2 in the body outside of cavity prevention.  

* It is helpful at preventing osteoporosis
* It is the only substance know to remove calcium from arteries - helping prevent heart attacks.
* It is thought to be helpful in regulating blood sugar levels 
* It is helpful in preventing some types of cancers, leukemia in particular 
* Prevents wrinkles 
* Prevents varicose veins

As for gut health, most important for us, I have not found any beneficial writings.  With my own observations though, I believe that K2 has helped me with controlling my IBD, microscopic colitis.  Possibly future research will show gut health benefits for K2.  

I feel that I have only given partial justice to vitamin K2.  Though to include this video below with Dr. Kate Bleue about the latest information concerning this nutrient.  

"Dr. Kate Rheaume-Bleue on Studio 4 with Fanny Kiefer"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNVK1QHegb4 

Thought to mention that vitamin K2 is sold in two forms, MK-4 and MK-7.  I personally take both types.  This is the product I buy:

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Extensio...4S0G/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1335793206&sr=8-3

Weston Price's Activator X has also made a come back of late.  Concentrated butter oil thought to be naturally high in vitamin K2 can be bought at Green Pastures.    

http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/ButterOil/index.cfm

Overseas, an Irish firm sells grass fed dairy items.  It can be found here in the US also.    

http://www.kerrygold.com/

And with that said, I personally tend to avoid dairy items as they do not seem to agree with my gut.


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## David (Apr 30, 2012)

Thank you very much Beach, I appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge and additional areas for research.  I've been poking around a little about K2 and it's pretty interesting.  I'm going to try some, thank you


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## Beach (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks, David I appreciate it.  I'm interested in how the K2 works out.  A few family members of mine are also taking K2, but they do not have gut issues as I do.  The only item of change they have noted is the good reports from the dentist the last couple years.  We've all stopped developing cavities.


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## David (Apr 30, 2012)

How much and how often do you take it?

My teeth are getting progressively worse so even if it doesn't help my gut, if it helps my teeth, it'll be well worth it.


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## CLynn (Apr 30, 2012)

David said:


> How much and how often do you take it?
> 
> My teeth are getting progressively worse so even if it doesn't help my gut, if it helps my teeth, it'll be well worth it.


 Oh so true, David, oh so true!!! If you can nip that in the bud right now, you will be much better off than me.
  So, guessing there are no ill effects from taking more than you need?


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## David (Apr 30, 2012)

Good point, I hadn't thought of that CLynn.  Beach, what's the upper tolerable limit for K2, do you know?  Any toxicity?

I'm watching the Youtube video you linked right now with the Naturopath.  She's well spoken and really seems to know her K2.  Easy on the eyes too 

*edit*

On the video the doctor said no toxicity.  Also said that K2 is extremely important for vitamin D to work properly and we all know how I feel about vitamin D 

Pinging Judith our Science Advisor to see if she has any thoughts on K2


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## Beach (Apr 30, 2012)

I take 2 of the vitamin K2 softgels a day - one in the morning and another with dinner.  Vitamin K2-4 and K2-7 are reported to be safe as mentioned.  K2-4 has a short life in the body, lasting for only a few hours, so that is why I take two capsules a day.  

To add, both forms of K2 are thought to perform in the body nearly the same.  I have read though that there are some differences noted in tests.  That is the reason why I take both forms of K2.    

"Are the MK-4 and MK-7 Forms of Vitamin K2 Equivalent?"

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/03/are-mk-4-and-mk-7-forms-of-vitamin-k2.html


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## Jobell (Apr 30, 2012)

I started taking K2 with my D when I learned about this a few months ago, but then my pharmacist strongly discouraged it, saying that it turns the blood to 'sludge', and can lead to stroke risk for some people. 
so confusing. I suspect he is thinking of vitamin K that they use as injections to help blood clot (after childbirth for example). But now I look at my vitamin K, my D oil, my magnesium, my zinc, and I don't know.... should I take them? should I take less than recommended? More? How much is safe? how much is optimal?
I do think the long-term solution is for society as a whole to learn how to get these nutrients back into our food supply, so we are not eating depleted, processed foods and then taking supplements (many of them synthetic or not properly balanced) to compensate.


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## David (Apr 30, 2012)

Of those four, I know Zinc toxicity is a very real thing.  How much are you taking of it?


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## Judith (May 1, 2012)

David said:


> Good point, I hadn't thought of that CLynn.  Beach, what's the upper tolerable limit for K2, do you know?  Any toxicity?
> 
> I'm watching the Youtube video you linked right now with the Naturopath.  She's well spoken and really seems to know her K2.  Easy on the eyes too
> 
> ...


Vitamin K is important for proper body function. There has been some research on its effects in health and disease but the studies are not extensive (in comparison to other areas of research).

It is very rare for people to be deficient in Vitamin K because it is synthesized by commensul microorganisms in the gut-  

Check out article if you are interested: Synthesis of Vitamin K (Menaquinone) in Bacteria

- _however,_ people who are on long term antibiotic therapy, like many IBD patients are, have reduced numbers of bacteria in the GI tract and may actually have low levels of Vitamin K and supplementation may be necessary.

Malabsorption seen in moderate to severe IBD may necessitate supplementation as well.

Low levels of Vitamin K cause excessive bleeding (Vitamin K helps the blood to clot). Your blood tests may show this by increased (PT) prothrombin time, etc.

_The Good_
Vitamin K appears to have some effects on the body's immune system/inflammatory pathways.  It appears to exacerbate inflammation when levels are low.  However, these studies have not yet fully explored the role of Vitamin K on all of the subtle complexities of the immune system (including feed-forward / feed-back pathways, etc.)

There is controversy in the literature whether Vitamin K has a role in cancer cell destruction. However, these findings are preliminary.

_The Bad_
Vitamin K should be avoided in people that are taking blood thinner medications (i.e. Coumadin) because Vitamin K counteracts the effect of the drug.

People with certain conditions should not take Vitamin K supplementation at all. Check with your doctor before taking any supplements.

Vitamin K3 has been associated with toxicity of the liver and red blood cells (RBCs), and allergic reactions so I would make sure any supplements you take do not contain Vitamin K3.

_The Confused_
I know there have been studies showing no upper limit for Vitamin K dosage (no toxicity at high doses). I realize that I am going against popular opinion. But, I dont believe there is any such thing as "safe at all doses" for any drug, supplement, cofactor or anything. I recommend being conservative if you do choose to supplement Vitamin K. Here are 3 reasons why:

1). I wholeheartedly believe there is no such thing as "safe at all doses" _for anything._  A supplement may be toxic at high levels or high doses may reduce levels of another Vitamin, Protein, etc. just by competing for binding sites on an enzyme that helps it to enter the cell, or convert it to an active state, or whatever.

Here is an example of someting that on the surface might appear to be "safe at all doses"..... Eating egg whites. Actually if you eat a lot of egg whites you can develop a Biotin Deficiency because the Avidin in the egg whites will bind the Biotin and deplete it from your body.

I thought I would give this example as an indirect way "too much of a good thing" is not necessarily "a good thing". 

2).  The research investigating how Vitamin K affects your body is far from complete. The work is being done but it will take time. Jumping ahead before a well rounded understanding of any drug/supplement's effects on the body may be detrimental in the long run. Just because something is considered "safe" doesnt necessarily mean it is.  Here are some examples of things that used to be considered "safe":

- A "mild" sedative that offers "safe and sound sleep".  Thalidomide

- DDT was thought to be safe unless directly injested. DDT Spraying


3). Many of the biochemical pathways that are likely affected by Vitamin K are pathways that are thought to be dysregulated in IBD (both, Crohn's Disease and Ulcerative Colitis).  There are multiple gene mutations implicated in IBD and more research still has to be done. Pertubations of these disrupted biological pathways by Vitamin K supplementation (especially at high doses) may actually make symptoms worse........ or they might make things better. More studies have to be done for us to fully understand how they interact.

Beach, I am glad you are having positive effects from supplementation. Just be careful 
J


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## Beach (May 1, 2012)

Jobell,

I remember you mentioning the pharmacist was not encouraged your interest in vitamin K2.  That is disappointing!  I agree though that it would be nice and best to obtain nutrients through diet.  That is my preference too.  Thought this article might be of help, as it mentions foods naturally high in K2.  The doctor in the article mentions that the changes in farm practice have not effected the amount of K2 in our diet.  I've read differently - so a bit confusing, but outside of that nice article.    

"Food sources of vitamin K2"

http://blog.trackyourplaque.com/2007/12/food-sources-of-vitamin-k2.html 

Most importantly, have you noticed any differences since taking K2!?  I believe K2 has helped my gut, but I'm not completely sure.  I'll explain further below.  I am decently certain though that K2 has stopped my teeth from developing cavities.  

With that said I guess if someone is taking a steroid, no bone building drug or supplement such as K2 is going to stop bone degradation.   When off medication, K2 and vitamin D3 should help in this area.  I wish I had known about K2 years ago.  I could have saved myself from a good deal of dental grief.  

Judith,

Thanks for the concerns about taking vitamin K2.  Agree, I wish there was more information on K2.  I was familiar with our intestines fermenting some K2 naturally.  From what I've read though that fermentation amount is small, with some believing it is not enough to meet our nutritional needs.  And with our IBD problems, Im guessing not much if any K2 creation is occurring.  

The amount I take in supplements is not far from what can be obtained naturally through diet.  It depends on the foods eaten of course.   So it is that which gives me some confidence in the dosage taken.  

Something that might be of help, a doctor that i follow, Dr. Davis a cardiologist, has been recommending that patients and followers supplement with K2.  He has a number of years experience working with vitamin K2.  It is on his sight where I learned of the nutrient.  If curious to learn more you might contact him to find out his patient experience working with K2 - positives and negatives.  I've written him in the past about different topics, and while busy, have found Dr. Davis to be a nice responsive fellow.  

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/press-media/contact-info/comment-page-4/#comment-9389 

David,

I was mentioning in a different post about my limited diet trials and getting myself well.  I forgot this bit.  I actually got myself well with the latest experiment.  This is a recent development.  As funny as this sounds I'm not all that pleased about the diet!  I jokingly call it the fish diet.   I've eaten more fish in the last month than I had my entire life previously I'm thinking.  Yuck!  The other protein source I choose was cheeses, such as Dutch gouda, known to be high in vitamin K2-7.  I felt run down on the fish diet, but the gut was never better.  

Anyway, thought to mention, hopefully in a few months I'll have a decent diet sorted out that I'm well on, with a bit more energy.  I'm at the point where I can experiment with foods, seeing what happens with the gut.  I see there is a Success Story section.  If I become an Overcame MC success story, I'll be sure to write a post detailing what i ate, supplements taken, and how long it took for the D to stop.  Maybe the info. will be of help to others.


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## Judith (May 2, 2012)

Beach,
Thank you for Dr. Davis site. It looks interesting.

The scientific literature on vitamin K supplementation appears promising to multiple inflammatory disorders (certain heart/vascular diseases are now considered inflammatory disorders).

I have read studies that claim gut flora produce adequate levels of Vitamin K and I have read the opposite. Fortunately, Vitamin K is needed in very small quantities. Excessive bleeding time is probably the most salient indicator of Vitamin K deficiency (pronounced deficiency anyway).

I am glad you are taking doses near the RDA and am so happy you are seeing benefits.  Thank you for bringing up the subject in the forum. Definately something to think about........  I noticed today that my multi- doesnt contain any Vitamin K.

J


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## David (May 2, 2012)

Judith, you seem to be lumping vitamin K and vitamin K2 into one.  Do you not feel they are very different?

Also, here's a study showcasing commonly low vitamin K levels in Crohn's Disease: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1728221/

**edit** Judith was kind enough to tell my in private that the paper above is terrible as they don't have their controls in place.  If she has time she might explain more in public.  It doesn't necessarily mean people with CD are not deficient, it just means the conclusions of this paper can't be trusted.


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## Beach (May 2, 2012)

Judith said:


> Beach,
> Thank you for Dr. Davis site. It looks interesting.
> 
> The scientific literature on vitamin K supplementation appears promising to multiple inflammatory disorders (certain heart/vascular diseases are now considered inflammatory disorders).
> ...


It certainly is an interesting nutrient, most notably known for helping with bone strength, improved dental health and heart disease prevention.  I imagine vitamin K2 could be most helpful for many here on the sight with the numerous IBD health issues we have.  

Your mention of inflammatory disorders and heart disease reminded me of something concerning bone strength.  Those with IBD are at an elevated risk for developing weak bones, osteoporosis.        

"Osteoporosis and Crohn's disease."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16112594

As the small study article mentions malnutrition seems to play a large roll in this development.  Medications often taken by Crohn's sufferers will not help the situation either.  

Those with osteoporosis are at elevated risk of developing plaque in arteries.  I'm probably sadly an example of that.  At the age of 36 I tested high for plaque in an artery, despite having no known common risk factors for heart disease.  

"Osteoporosis and coronary calcium"

http://blog.trackyourplaque.com/2008/03/osteoporosis-and-coronary-calcium.html

As for the amount of vitamin K2 that we need, in particular with our IBD often leading to malnutrition, we don't know.  But we do know that many of us with IBD will develop osteoporosis.  And with that I'm guessing heart disease will be a problem for many.  Nutritional strategies that can help prevent these two conditions will be most helpful is my guess.  In addition,  my belief is the K2 helps with gut health to a degree also.  

In ending, I thought this a nice article about determining nutritional needs per individuals by Marion Nestle.  The article reminded me a little bit about vitamin D3, something many of us here take.  By government standards 400ius is all that is needed.  I believe officials have lightened up a little bit on that low level, adding that some people might require 2000ius a day.  Yet many of us need significantly more of the sunshine vitamin in order to reach beneficial levels of 50ng/ml and higher.  I personally take 6000ius of reach a testing level between 60 to 70ng/ml.      

"Nutritionist’s Notebook: Estimating nutrient requirements"

http://www.foodpolitics.com/2012/05/nutritionists-notebook-estimating-nutrient-requirements/


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## Jobell (May 2, 2012)

I thought I felt better taking the K2 and Calcium and D (I bought D3 in an oil base, and feel it works better than the pill form). But then I had some other medical problems, so  of course I wonder if any of my experimental supplements contributed to that? I got gallstones for the first time in my life. I have had tinnitus also first time in my life. Are these symptoms brought on by something i ingested? just random coincidence? It is extremely hard to pinpoint causality with these things, especially since many vitamin therapies take months to show results. 
When I went to the doctor and 2 of them discouraged using the K2.... it is confusing. The K2 I have is 100 mcg per pill. They always say 'ask your doc before starting supplements' but the doctors are usually lukewarm or downright cool about any supplements. And they can be misinformed.
I asked my doc if I was low on anything from my recent blood work and he looked and said, 'no you're fine'. Then I asked him, "what about vitamin D?" and he looked again and said, 'Well, actually that IS a bit low, so you could take a supplement of 800 iu per day."  I take closer to 2,000 or 3,000. 
Well, if i hadn't asked him specifically, would I have walked around forever with low D levels? Yet most doctors don't even know the interactions between D and K2, or the promising effects on inflammatory processes that these vitamins seem to offer. so do I self-medicate and hope for the best? I really have a very big fear of strokes, blood clots etc. although the pro-vitamin K2 people say that K2 actually regulates plaque and reduces the risk of clots.


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## Beach (May 2, 2012)

Sorry about the additional health troubles being experienced Jobell.  Dealing with an IBD condition is bad enough.  No additional suffering from other conditions is necessary!  Hopfully the supplements did not lead to gallstones or tinnitus.  I recall you were mentioning in another tread long term medications being taken could also be behind the problem.  

If you have not already, I would imagine the best way to find out if the supplements are a problem is to stop taking the D3 and K2 for awhile and see if the ringing goes away.  I recall a few years ago an uncle having a similar problem.  At first he went through the supplements being taken, stopping them for awhile to see if that cured the problem.  Eventually he figured out it was the statin drug he was taking that was causing the ringing.  It drove him crazy for awhile, but thankfully he got to the bottom of the tinnitus cause.  Today the uncle is back to his normal self, driving everyone else crazy at this point.      

As for self medication and learning about diet healing ideas, it does seem we are heading more in this direction.  Physicians have little training in nutrition.  They only spend a few weeks on the topic while in school.  I recall this MD's article about her time in medical school and nutrition training.    

"Teaching Doctors About Nutrition and Diet"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/health/16chen.html?_r=1

And here in the US at least, rules on prescription drug use might be lessened.  I thought this would be a positive development if it occurs.   

"FDA May Allow More Drugs to Be Obtained without Prescription"

http://blogs.the-american-interest....re-drugs-to-be-obtained-without-prescription/


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## Jobell (May 2, 2012)

Beach, why do you think it would be a good thing to loosen restrictions on prescription drugs? wouldn't that just make more people inclined to grab the 'meds' instead of looking for more natural alternatives?

You did help me clear up one thing though - i have stopped all my supplements for the past few weeks while dealing with these other issues, and it did not help clear up the problems, so probably the supplements were not to blame. Whew. now i can take the D3 and K2 (which i really believe in, as the science seems to be there), without much worry.

I also felt long term antibiotics were more likely to be the culprit for me, but of course when i asked my docs, they threw that idea out without even consideration. 

Me: Could 7 years of *non-stop *strong antibiotics like cipro and flagyl be causing my gallstones etc.?
Doc: (without even making eye contact) Absolutely not. Keep taking them.

okaaaaay.


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## David (May 2, 2012)

Lots of things are theorized to cause gallstones though they don't fully understand them.  Two suspected causes are low amounts of bile salts and low fiber intake.  Both of those are unfortunately common in people with IBD


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## Beach (May 2, 2012)

Jobell said:


> Beach, why do you think it would be a good thing to loosen restrictions on prescription drugs? wouldn't that just make more people inclined to grab the 'meds' instead of looking for more natural alternatives?
> 
> okaaaaay.


It could, but I suspect that wouldn't be the case.  And I guess for that matter it wouldn't bother me if people did pick up drugs more frequently.  What ever works, I'm for all of the above.  Having drugs more widely available might lower their costs.  

When it comes to diets and supplements there isn't much incentive for physicians to promote ideas, or ideas that work.  It isn't a conspiracy, it's just that they don't make money.  As economists might say, there is little interest for creative destruction for most involved.  Diets books, health blogs, articles, and supplements are not special, they are easy to buy at stores or look up on the web.  We don't need a doctor for them.  Largely it is up to us to read information to see what works best for our situation.  

Maybe as an example since this is a thread about vitamin K2 - there are smaller old studies showing that vitamin K2, plus other fat soluble vitamins will prevent dental cavities, up to 90% of the time.  It wouldn't be in an average dentists interest to promote these vitamins, or the diet about cavity repair and teeth strengthening.  Doing so in America it would mean lost revenue.  In Canada, fewer dentists would be needed.  

So seeing drugs compete on store shelves with vitamin nutrients wouldn't be a bad idea.  It possibly would make people more aware of nutrition strategies   for dealing with their healthcare situation.  And possible a few more doctors would take a greater interest in food ideas.  To a certain extent I'm laughing about this!  If revenue was lost in a meaningful way to pharmaceutical firms, I'm guessing easy access to supplements would suddenly come under fire from officials.  Then again hard to compete against eating healthy food ideas and a little sun bathing, avoiding being burnt.     

For example, a story example I recall from Dr. Cornell about vitamin D3 and a fertility clinic concerning the lack of interest in promoting vitamin D3.    

"Vitamin D and fertility in men and women"

http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=f545cba30e1f9697fddbe8acb&id=20789972d6&e=d37488c337 

snippet:



> Every year, billions are spent in fertility clinics; the result of which is often in vitro fertilization (IVF). About 5 years ago, I began receiving emails from a nurse practitioner in Indiana who works in a fertility clinic. Her experience was dramatic; 5,000 IU/day for both the man and woman frequently resulted in a healthy baby. However, her last email to me was quite sad, she was in danger of losing her job as her boss, a gynecologist, was losing money due to vitamin D. He ordered her to stop advocating it or lose her job...


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## Judith (May 2, 2012)

David said:


> Judith, you seem to be lumping vitamin K and vitamin K2 into one.  Do you not feel they are very different?
> 
> Also, here's a study showcasing commonly low vitamin K levels in Crohn's Disease: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1728221/


I was lumping K and K2 together (plus K3 actually). I probably should not have been that vague, sorry about that. I am making an effort to write "read-able length" posts. 

The reason _why_ I did it is because although I believe they are quite different (for example K3 can be toxic), once they are in the body they can be converted into the others. That is why I lumped them. 

I am fully aware that Vitamin K can be low in certain Crohn's patients.... along with a long list of other important nutrients. Maybe I didnt word my post properly to relay this info but patients with chronic inflammation/flare/diarrhea/antibiotics/etc. have a high likelihood of nutrient deficiency.

I am not against supplementation.  _Especially_ in cases of chronic IBD flare or surgery. I take a ridiculous amount of supplements every day and my body can tell if I miss one.

My questioning Vitamin K supplementation was in response to the post about ".....no upper limit to Vitamin K dosing...."  I would advise against very excessive doses of Vitamin K.

J


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## Judith (May 2, 2012)

Here is a pretty interesting review on Vitamin K you might like:

http://www.schattauer.de/en/magazin.../issue/special/manuscript/10279/download.html


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## David (May 2, 2012)

Cool paper!  Thank you   An interesting quote from it:



> It is beyond the scope of this review to consider in detail the evidence for and against the relevance of intestinal flora to the maintenance of vitamin K status but this has been considered elsewhere (4, 15). In an extensive review in 1995, Suttie (4) concluded that gut menaquinones do contribute to human nutrition but to a degree that is less important than previously thought. In the intervening years there has been little or no evidence to contradict this conclusion and in several human studies the importance of the diet as the major source of functionally available vitamin K has been reinforced (see also section on Dietary deficiency in humans).


So maybe intestinal flora doesn't contribute much?


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## Judith (May 2, 2012)

David said:


> Cool paper!  Thank you   An interesting quote from it:
> 
> 
> So maybe intestinal flora doesn't contribute much?


Honestly, I have seen intestinal flora contributes most to intestinal flora contributes almost none. Some forms of Vit K are transported more easily than others too.

For IBD patients (or anyone) on chronic antibiotics that result in massive dying-off of the gut flora I believe Vit K could be a potential issue.  Especially, in cases of chronic diarrhea.


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## David (May 2, 2012)

Oooh, this is good from that paper Judith posted:



> Vitamin K and inflammation
> 
> A small number of investigations have claimed to demonstrate an inverse relationship between vitamin K and an inflammatory response. Cell culture studies showed that lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-treated fibroblasts secrete interleukin (IL-6) but this is reduced if the cells are first treated with vitamin K (119). Experiments on rats demonstrated that animals fed on vitamin K-deficient diets had an enhanced expression of genes involved in an acute inflammatory response compared to those on normal or phylloquinone supplemented diets and also that the supplemented diet suppressed the inflammatory response induced with LPS (120). Recently a human population study using the Framingham Offspring Study cohort, examined cross-sectional associations between both status and intake of vitamins K and D (which is also believed to lower inflammatory responses in certain disease states, though not in healthy individuals) and a number of systemic proinflammatory biomarkers (121). The results showed that vitamin K status whether measured as plasma concentration or as phylloquinone intake was inversely and significantly related to individual inflammatory markers and to the overall inflammatory process.


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## Judith (May 2, 2012)

Yes, there are a few studies that show Vitamin K has anti-inflammatory effects and anti-cancer effects. Pretty interesting.


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## David (May 2, 2012)

I just popped my first Vitamin K/K2 pill (the one Beach recommended) and followed it with some Kippers (also from a Beach recommendation, hahah).  I know I have systemic inflammation with more than my fair share in my gut, right eye, and nasal passages, so we'll see if this might help with any of that at all.  I also have erosion of my teeth along the gum lines and the occasional cavity, so even if it only helps that, then hurray.  The experiment has begun


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## Judith (May 2, 2012)

Kippers? The Fish?


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## David (May 2, 2012)

Heheh, yeah.  As a result of this thread.


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## Judith (May 2, 2012)

David said:


> Heheh, yeah.  As a result of this thread.


As much as I would 'love' to 'love' kippers....... Well, I sort of feel the opposite way about them. Very much the opposite....

Now my experience a few years ago with Mom makes some sense. She and I were together with no husbands for some reason (I forget why). And she bought us this "treat" for us to share. Yes she called it a "treat". I was so excited to see what the treat was. Maybe sushi, maybe divinity candies..... I was so excited! And then she pulled out..... bait...... which I would still be excited about but we were not going fishing.  

I really tried to be excited about it (because maybe I was missing something that was particularly AWESOME). I kept trying to put that thing down my throat and it just kept coming right back up. My throat is closing up a bit right now just from this post.

Mom confused us! Bait is a treat for YOU!


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## Judith (May 2, 2012)

David said:


> I just popped my first Vitamin K/K2 pill (the one Beach recommended) and followed it with some Kippers (also from a Beach recommendation, hahah).  I know I have systemic inflammation with more than my fair share in my gut, right eye, and nasal passages, so we'll see if this might help with any of that at all.  I also have erosion of my teeth along the gum lines and the occasional cavity, so even if it only helps that, then hurray.  The experiment has begun


You got that Fast! Thanks to Amazon Prime??  Hee hee.


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## Judith (May 2, 2012)

David said:


> I just popped my first Vitamin K/K2 pill (the one Beach recommended) and followed it with some Kippers (also from a Beach recommendation, hahah).  I know I have systemic inflammation with more than my fair share in my gut, right eye, and nasal passages, so we'll see if this might help with any of that at all.  I also have erosion of my teeth along the gum lines and the occasional cavity, so even if it only helps that, then hurray.  The experiment has begun


Speaking mouth issues........ I found out I am allergic/sensitive to toothpaste. It is pretty silly. 

My dentist told me the tissue damage in my mouth is not that uncommon and it is due to my toothpaste. Every day all of the skin in my mouth would peel off (just the very top layer but it happened every day). I have stopped using toothpaste completely and now use plain baking soda. My mouth is healing well, my skin does not peel off any more and it has only been a week.


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## Judith (May 3, 2012)

Jobell said:


> Beach, why do you think it would be a good thing to loosen restrictions on prescription drugs? wouldn't that just make more people inclined to grab the 'meds' instead of looking for more natural alternatives?
> 
> You did help me clear up one thing though - i have stopped all my supplements for the past few weeks while dealing with these other issues, and it did not help clear up the problems, so probably the supplements were not to blame. Whew. now i can take the D3 and K2 (which i really believe in, as the science seems to be there), without much worry.
> 
> ...


Wow 7 years of non stop Flagyl and Cipro....... Wow....

Your gallstones could be genetic. Do you have any family members that have them as well? Genetic factors account for aprox. 30% of cases.....

Other risk factors: Females have higher risk, higher weight (BMI>30), age >50, diabetes.

Apparently 1 in 4 people with Crohn's Disease get gallstones. There can be infection present as well so the Cipro and Flagyl is probably being used to reduce this likelihood.

So sorry you are having problems with your health.

Is your tinnitus associated with vestibular (balance/dizziness) problems as well? Or, do you just hear ringing/noise?

I had a tinnitus issue too a few years ago. It was annoying. Mine is fine now. It was due to a Vitamin imbalance.


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## Judith (May 3, 2012)

Beach said:


> As for self medication and learning about diet healing ideas, it does seem we are heading more in this direction.  Physicians have little training in nutrition.  They only spend a few weeks on the topic while in school.  I recall this MD's article about her time in medical school and nutrition training.
> 
> "Teaching Doctors About Nutrition and Diet"
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/health/16chen.html?_r=1[


I just read this article Beach. Thank you for the info and wow....


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## Beach (May 3, 2012)

David said:


> I just popped my first Vitamin K/K2 pill (the one Beach recommended) and followed it with some Kippers (also from a Beach recommendation, hahah).  I know I have systemic inflammation with more than my fair share in my gut, right eye, and nasal passages, so we'll see if this might help with any of that at all.  I also have erosion of my teeth along the gum lines and the occasional cavity, so even if it only helps that, then hurray.  The experiment has begun


Good luck and hope the fish eating works out as well as it seems to be for me.  

Oh, I'm so tired of eating fish all the time at this point, but it's good.  I'm semi-well to the gut of late, which is a very nice change.  Hopfully I'll continue to improve.  I added beef to the limited diet today.  I'm really, really hoping this item can be added to my safe list.  

For laughs thought to mention, with the diet I've been suspect of gelatin.  Gelatin is made from either beef or pork parts.  So along with avoiding meats outside of fish, I've been cutting open supplements and squeezing  contents out.  

Vitamin K2 tastes decent.  

Krill oil squirted with an unsteady hand into and over a vegetarian capsule


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## Lynda Lynda (Sep 23, 2018)

I know these posts are really old, but I am going to read through the first post and then do some research online about K2. I have never taken anything but iron, b12 and d3 in my lifetime. 

Question for anyone who reads this, do you consult with your Gastroenterologist before you start taking these vitamins / supplements? I would want to contact my doctor first so that I do not mess up my current treatment. But since my Gastroenterologist doesn't seem to care one bit about anything but Humira and 6mp, why should I ask him. He's never mentioned a dietician, nutrition, supplements, ways to relieve stress, exercise, probiotics. I dont think my PCP would even care, as almost all the time  I make a "doctors" appointment I always see their NP. 

I am saving articles and videos to read and watch this week. 

Take Care


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## hugh (Sep 23, 2018)

Lynda Lynda said:


> I am saving articles and videos to read and watch this week.
> 
> Take Care


got to stress the point that any vitamin is only as good as the diet that it is a part of. [1]

_*Vitamin K2: Are You Consuming Enough? *_
_"K2 plays important roles in our bodies—and you might not be getting enough. Read on to learn the difference between K1 and K2, the benefits of vitamin K2, and how to incorporate K2-rich foods into your diet"_
https://kresserinstitute.com/vitamin-k2-consuming-enough/

_*The Ultimate Vitamin K2 Resource*
"This resource....... begins by teaching you everything you need to know about the vitamin, including its benefits, how much you need, and how to get it from food. It includes shareable infographics to make the concepts fun and easy to understand. Finally, it provides reviews of the available supplements and a searchable database of the vitamin K2 contents of foods that can’t be found anywhere else."_
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/

and a video, haven't finished yet........ 
_*Vitamin K2 — A Crucial Ingredient for Heart and Bone Health*
"In the video above, Kate Rheaume-Bleue, a naturopathic physician and author of “Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox” discusses the importance of this often-overlooked vitamin, and its synergistic effects with other nutrients. "_
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2017/11/13/vitamin-k2-for-heart-bone-health.aspx

_"The goal is to restore Vitamin D, Magnesium, Omega-3, and Vitamin K back to where they had been "_
https://vitamindwiki.com/Vitamin+D+Cofactors+in+a+nutshell


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## Lynda Lynda (Sep 24, 2018)

Wow. Thanks. 
I have saved all your links. 
I am going to be busy this week 

Lynda


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## hugh (Sep 24, 2018)

Lynda Lynda said:


> Wow. Thanks.
> I have saved all your links.
> I am going to be busy this week
> 
> Lynda


That's why I like podcasts, beautiful day and I only put the headphones in one ear so that I'm still 'in nature' and maybe take notes when it comes to dosages and co-factors.
Enjoy


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