# Crohn's after antibiotics, anyone else?



## g_1988

*fixed*    This post won't apply to all of you, and maybe none of you. Sorry.

Hi,

In 2007 I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease. It all began when I was given some antibiotics for a cyst on my face. I wanted my GP to excise it but he said he'd rather try antibiotics first.

One of the side effects of those antibiotics was diarrhea. The second day after being on antibiotics I started getting diarrhea... okay, that's normal. A week later, still there. Okay, it'll start dying down soon 'cause I'm off the meds now ... two weeks on and I was back to the doctor. He said try some yoghurt and it might help. About five weeks later I went back to see a different doctor because my GP didn't seem concerned.


The other doctor said "sounds like inflammatory bowel disease". I was thinking "what?! No...  no it's something to do with the antibiotics I've taken". She said "no, they can't cause Crohn's." and I thought, oh, okay then, you're the doc.

Anyway, she refered me to a gastroenterologist, I explained to himwhat had happened and he seemed to  think it was just a... get this... "coincidence". I was extremely upset at the fact that this was passed off as a coincidence. I know my body and I know what happened... those antibiotics did something to me and now I have Crohn's disease. I took them, got diarrhea, got diagnosed with Crohn's.

Anyway, I am ranting here. Up until a few months ago I've always just listened to my specialist. I've never brought up the antibiotic thing with him. It has taken this long for me to get a grip on what's happening to me, to change my diet and lifestyle, try natural alternatives and see what I can do for myself instead of hanging on the doctor's every word. As much as natural supplements help, they're still not a cure.

Apparently there's a lot of convincing medical literature on Crohn's and candida. Lots of people apparently go on to develop Crohn's or other IBDs after antibiotic treatment. I've not done much  research on this, but I will be doing as much as possible on this and I will be reporting back any findings (both for and against) on this.

I am still absolutely 100% convinced those antibiotics did something to me. *I know* they didn't CAUSE the disease, but they opened the door and in came Crohn's.

I've also been finding out that there's another disease in livestock called Johne's disease, very similar to Crohn's, but the cause it a bacterial infection caused by M. paratuberculosis. There is a lot of medical literature on M. paratuberculosis and Crohn's disease, too. Look it up.


Anyway, rant over and what I want to ask you guys is this: has this happened to any of you aswell? Taken some antibiotics and then got Crohn's? Or taken any medication that led to the development of Crohn's/IBD.


Please reply if you have because I would like to talk to you!

Even it hasn't happened to you, feel free to post anyway.


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## CrohnieCarolyn

Just before I started having symptoms of Crohns - the diarrhea, cramping etc. I was on antibiotics for recurring yeast infections.  I wonder if my immune system went wacky allowing the infections to keep coming back or if the antibotics screwed the immune system up - anyway, not long after my third round of antibiotics (I had hardly ever taken them in my life) I got Crohns...makes you wonder...


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## NatalieMT

I have the same theory over how my problems started. February 2008 I got this awful tooth abcess and just went on course after course of antibiotics, I think they were Amoxicillin and Metronidazole. The D symptoms started in June 2008 then the bleeding and pain followed, I lost the tooth in August 2008 after extensive root canal treatment which unfortunately failed. I can understand D being associated with antibiotics but maybe not my other symptoms, not sure what to think there.

I mean it does seem like a massive coincidence, I'm just not sure though as nothing can be proven. All I know is I was pretty much fine prior to those events and only a few months later I wound up in hospital for weeks on end and was diagnosed with Crohn's officially.


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## g_1988

CrohnieCarolyn,

That's interesting. Candida is a form of yeast... maybe it really did have something to do with it. Did you talk to your specialist about it?

I'm seeing mine on the 14th of December and I am bringing this up with him and demanding to be checked for bacterial/yeast overgrowth. 

What gets me is that no avenue has ever even been tested. No checks for any kind of infection or ANYTHING!

I see it like this:

1. No Crohn's and no other health problems.
2. Take drug which will kill all bacteria, including intestinal bacteria.
3. Get diarrhea.
4. Diarrhea never goes.
5. ...  No check for any kind of bacterial/micro organism problem? Just dose up on roids and immune suppressors. 

I had byopsies taken after my first colonoscopy, but they were from my colon and apparantly my Crohn's is affecting the ileum. The colonoscopy didn't even show inflammation, they only found ulcers (they couldn't get in far enough, I think).  

Anyway, post more thoughts. .


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## CrohnieCarolyn

I did do the pooping in the test tubes to check for any bacterial organism problems before they found the Crohns and when I did bring up the yeast/antibotic theory my doctor poo pooed it - no pun intened...interesting theory but until we know more that is all it will be I guess.  I also wonder when I went to Mexico years ago and picked up a nasty bug that left me with Montazuma's revenge if that had anything to do with it but again the doctors don't know enough yet ...It is like - did the chicken or egg come first - the bacterial invader or the immune system going wacky allowing the bacteria to run rampant...and so the debate continues...let me know if you find anything more out or have any more ideas...


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## BWS1982

George? It said George a bit ago... the alkaline/acid guy?...Err...

Anyways, I've been shushed about the Minocycline I was taking for acne being an ignition factor in the development (read: NOT cause, but awakening, if you will) of Crohn's Disease for me. I want answers and often point fingers for them. I took it in 2006, summer, to be precise, and then a couple months later I started the saga that I know today as the 3+ years (minus 4.5 months of remission) in hell. 

I read in the side effects in the accompanying literature that a potential one was "colitis" and they told me (two of my GI's out of 6, but they were the only 2 I've asked thus far) that it's a "different type" of colitis, that it is not a chronic issue, it's not supposed to be Ulcerative Colitis, just "colitis" meaning inflammation in the colon. They said if I got "that version" then it would have resolved itself by now and not developed this way.

Here's what I still proclaim towards certain adamant sectors of science now: You can't cure Crohn's, you debate amongst your elite guru's on what causes it, or where the cure will be found. Speculation and positing has been out of control since 1932 when Burrill Crohn put the word out on this damn thing. So, with such a broad and enigmatic landscape to cover, it seems, how are you so sure what DIDN'T cause it? 

The immune system is far from understood, as is IBD, so the void of information is too gaping to be so concrete on such ambiguous "standards". I am not saying this Minocycline started my Crohn's but I got symptoms 2 months after being on it, and my Crohn's Disease has been very responsive to antibiotic treatment thus far (Cipro, flagyl, Levaquin), more so than with Remicade or Cimzia, actually. The timing is very suspect. Coincidence? Perhaps. Clue? Perhaps as well.


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## saidinstouch

Just food for though we have 10^13 human cells in our body and 10^14 bacterial cells in our body.  We are more bacteria than we are human, so antibiotics don't actually kill anywhere near every bacteria in our body.  A more reasonable theory is that we are lacking certain subsets of bacteria that are an important factor in our normal functioning and can lead to crohns disease.  Our bodies and the bacteria have a high level of crosstalk that can be observed in how bacteria make proteins that synthesize their own antibiotics, and these proteins take more effort to produce than the ribosome itself (one of the absolute most complex and important proteins in the body that evolution clearly selects for).  It would make sense if our lack of different bacterial populations could lead to missing signals for proper immune function.  It could also explain why different segments of the crohns community can have different symptoms and different treatment responses.  Unfortunately, the implication of this is that our ability to decipher the problem is that much more complex than it was even a few years ago.

If you are interested in learning more about this lookup Michael Fishbach at UCSF.  He is a new professor here and his research is amazing.


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## autumn_rose

I was not on any antibiotics any time closely prior to developing Crohn's, but I have some theories as well. I had my gall bladder removed, which I was told could cause IBS. So when the bouts of bathroom-runs ensued, I thought it was normal. Obviously not the case. But I wonder if having my gall bladder removed somehow opened the doors to developing crohn's? I have talked to someone else that also developed crohn's after gall bladder removal. Anyone else?


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## D Bergy

I think the Fluoroquinolone group of antibiotics possibly could cause the disease since the fluorine weakens the immune system somewhat.  It may only bring you to a tipping point for a disease you were well on the way of developing.

Since antibiotics do not discriminate between good and bad bacteria, who knows what effect the wholesale killing of many strains of beneficial bacteria has?

Antibiotics may or may not be able to cause the disease, I certainly do not know one way or another.  I think I can safely say that based on how many reports of this chain of events I have seen, that they play a role in bringing on symptoms. 

Dan


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## jenpuckett

*Yogurt*

were any of you eating yogurt while taking or after taking antibiotics?  i did not know to do this and wonder if the antibiotics lead to crohn's.  or not replenishing the good bacteria. wish i would have known to do this.


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## D Bergy

I think another possibility here is that Crohn's symptoms are brought on by antibiotic use, but the MAP bacteria is acting up because some of it is being killed by the antibiotics.

I have been doing a lot of experimentation on the MAP bacteria lately using unconventional treatments.  I believe I accidentally disturbed the MAP bacteria a couple of months ago and this caused my flare. 

I am not 100% sure of this, but I have several indications that it is likely the MAP bacteria and I can repeat it.  It does cause me a lot of trouble when I do.

Dan


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## RFarmer

This is what happened to me. I was on Ceftin and Flagyl, then Cipro and Flagyl for a bronchial tract infection... A few weeks later, BOOM. I'm sick.


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## soretum

wow interesting thread....
I travelled thru south america for 3 months late 2008, suffered with altitude sickness pretty badly, constant diarrhoea thru Bolivia and Peru, stopped once we were in chile and at sea level....my guts was never the same after that, suffered extreme bloating and discomfort and eventually mucous for two years until the diarrhoea started in january this year....then my body started going haywire with erythema nodosum, scleritis, anaemia, boils blah blah blah....

I KNOW that this all started from there and am sure it has something to do with the upset of bacteria etc


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## MissD

No, I was not on antibiotics before any of my symptoms started.  I did not travel to anywhere before any of my symptoms started *hey Ive never ever left my own country*.  I did not take any illegal drugs, I did not have sexual relations with any questionable peoples *monica lewinsky included*.  I have eaten copious amounts of yogurt over the years and not had any symptoms.  Ive been through major stress in my life and not had any symptoms.





One day totally out of the blue I got some stomach cramps.  Three weeks later I got diarrhea.  Three weeks after that I took two immodium and four days later I was in hospital with a camera up my ass and a crohns diagnosis.


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## butterfly

I cant even read this while thread....

But yes. I was on antibiotics for an ear infection at 8 yrs old. Dxed with crohns shortly after. Had D and blood. What was the antibiotic in question? Mine was Augmentum. I feel like many others it opened a door for crohns and I honestly think doctors need to be way more careful in prescribing antibotics as a cure-all medication.  It kills me to think thats why i have it


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## Crohny

Since early childhood, I have been loaded up with antibiotics, and developed dry skin patches. I had been to several skin dr's and they all had different opinons- eczema, psoriasis, and seborrheic dermatitis.
At 18 I had an abscess tooth, so I was loaded up with more antibiotics, and developed a fistula. I had some tests done, and had no diagnosis... I continued to live with dry skin patches, getting temporary relief from topical steroids, etc... until now.
I was hospitalized a few months ago for severe stomach cramping and vomiting (no diarrhea). I had every test done that could possibly be done, and was diagnosed with Crohn's (In the terminal Ileum).
The Dr. put me on mercaptopurine and pentasa, and within a week my dry skin was completely cleared up. It was bittersweet. No more dry skin, but now I have Crohn's.
Have had a couple flare-ups, treated with prednisone... the dr demanded that I go on Humira, but I didn't feel right about it. I cut sugar and lactose completely from my diet and am feeling pretty good at the moment. So Humira is out of the picture for now. 
I have done an extensive amount of reading about Candida and Crohn's, and can't help but feel that the antibiotics allowed Candida to take control of my body.
I just started a Candida clense diet, and am taking supplements to help balance out the bacteria...
*Since steroids & immune suppressants are known to feed the bad bacteria, should I stop taking mercaptopurine and pentasa?*
I don't think I'll ever get the Candida under control until I do.
I don't know what to do here, all of these 'diets' have contradictions to each other, and I've completely alienated myself from the Dr.
Although they may help, I don't think meds are the answer to everything. Has anybody had success with stopping their meds and changing diet?


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## Dunbar

Look for shannon's holistic journey,I  haven't figured out how to add threads with my phone yet, sorry. She is having success with her program.


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## chrisnsteph1022

Yes, my first flare followed a course of antibiotics. I always blamed that for kicking it off, but not causing it. It just brought it out, imo.


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## dannysmom

I do not think antibiotics caused my son's initial problem ... but after trial treatment of broad-spectrum antibiotics for about 4 months ... my son's problem is now much worse. He has had diarrhea everyday & night for the last 7 months. I do think that Candida Albicans is contributing this ... but his doctor did not want to put him on anti-fungal medication.  Has anybody been tested to see if Candida has overgrown in the digestive tract?


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## Crohny

dannysmom said:


> Has anybody been tested to see if Candida has overgrown in the digestive tract?


I would like to know this too.

I scheduled an appointment with my dr. to run a bunch of tests (allergy, bacteria, vitamin deficiencies, etc) but I guess he thought I was crazy, and kept telling me I have Crohn's so he didn't understand why I wanted these tests- he then handed me all of my records and referred me to the best Crohn's specialist in the area. 
I had a scheduled appoinment for a very specific thing, I don't understand why he turned me away like that! :ymad:


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## Janaw1203

In November 2011 my 16 yr old son was given antibiotics for brohncitis. And the rest of the story is identical to your story. He was hospitaized in Jan. And diagnosed. He is on Humira, and still has some flare ups. He has been on Humira for several years because at age 11 he was diag.w/ psoriatic arthritis. He was on Humira and then given antibiotics and then the next day started the diahrrea and that went on until hospitalized a month later for dehydration and tests. Still not 100% under control. May have to try Rimicade.


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## LondonSnow

I'm pretty new to this crappy disease, but yeah, it all started after spending a few months on Tetracyclines for acne of all things. Actually, it started about a week after I came off the meds in the summer. I don't buy that it's a coincidence at all.

Sorry for the bump guys, blame Google.


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## Lindy Lou

This may put the "cat amongst the pigeons" but I have had crohn's for 15 years and have tried many medications.  I am on Prednisolone 10mg and 1 weekly injection of Humira.  6 weeks ago I developed a chest infection and was given amoxacillin, which didn't clear it, then Tetrocyline. again didn't clear it.  The third anti=biotic is Augmentin which is clearing the infection.  The strange thing is my crohn's symptoms have improved dramatically , 2-3 BM's a day with normal stools and no pain.  Even the fatigue is better and I am more alert and motivated than for a long time.  Has anyone else had this experience?  I see my GI this week and will certainly speak to him and see what he has to say about anti-biotics in the treatment for Crohn's


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## LondonSnow

Lindy, that's interesting to hear. I guess the truth is nobody's 100% sure what causes Crohn's; although we treat it like an autoimmune condition, it's possible it's actually just a really persistent infection that our immune system never gives up trying to fight. I know in St. George's hospital here in London a researcher is investigating the possibility of it being caused by 'MAP bacteria'.


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## Little Cajun Girl

WOW!  I no longer feel like the Lone Ranger on this one!  After 7 years in remission, I was given an antibiotic for an infection in my finger and WHAM!  I am in full blown Crohn's arrest!  Being the pro that I am, I told my doctor I am not playing around to bring out the big guns, the big guns aren't helping.  I have had to give up clients that I work with for my business.  I am down to three and barely keeping up.  I float from day to day like I am in a fog.  I am really hating it right now and have no idea what else to do.  I am so tired of people asking me if I have tried "natural"....Guess what!  I have tried everything except running through the rain naked!  I feel myself getting to the edge where I have no patience because I am EXHAUSTED, have a constant headache because I am hungry but cannot eat......Just so tired!  UGH I sound like the people I hate to talk to :/


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## Ihurt

Are you taking a strong probiotic?? It is absolutely important to take high doses of probiotics when taking any antibitoic. Yougurt is NOT enough. YOu would have to eat gallons of it to get a sufficient amount of good bugs to replenish the good bacteria.

I really DO think antibiotics  Can cause crohns. I have had to be on an antibiotic for over 5 years! I was taking a Low dose antibiotic(keflex) in order to keep away the horrible UTI's I was getting. Then I had to switch to low dose augmentin. I mean all my gut issues really took off after I got a stomach bug two years ago... I do take probiotics, have been for years now.I take one called 50 billion by renew life.  I also take one called floragen3.

I think the whole role in antibitoics causing crohns is that antibiotics do deplete certain good bugs that allow for the bad bugs to grow out of control and they inflamme the intestines. That would explain why for some people when they take another antibiotic, well that helps kill off that bad bateria  that is inflamming the gut and hence the symtpoms get better. But with bacteria, well everyone is different. Some people's bacteria is resistant to certain antibiotics so certain ones wont work to kill off that bad bacteria. 

What shocks me is that WHY do the gastro docs  not do testing to see how a persons flora is???? I had a natural doctor test mine three years ago. Mine was just ok. I mean with me being on a low dose antibiotic for so long, it has done it's damage. But I have been taking a lot of probitoics so maybe that is why I still had some good bugs in there. I am NOT doing well now though. I mean my gastro keep saying IBS. I dont think so. I think I have IBD or some other disease that is causing inflammation in my intestines. I am sure there are other diseases that can cause intestinal inflammation...... 

Sorry to go on like that, but yeah, I do think antibitoics can cause issues for some....









Little Cajun Girl said:


> WOW!  I no longer feel like the Lone Ranger on this one!  After 7 years in remission, I was given an antibiotic for an infection in my finger and WHAM!  I am in full blown Crohn's arrest!  Being the pro that I am, I told my doctor I am not playing around to bring out the big guns, the big guns aren't helping.  I have had to give up clients that I work with for my business.  I am down to three and barely keeping up.  I float from day to day like I am in a fog.  I am really hating it right now and have no idea what else to do.  I am so tired of people asking me if I have tried "natural"....Guess what!  I have tried everything except running through the rain naked!  I feel myself getting to the edge where I have no patience because I am EXHAUSTED, have a constant headache because I am hungry but cannot eat......Just so tired!  UGH I sound like the people I hate to talk to :/


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## Stephen

CrohnieCarolyn said:


> I did do the pooping in the test tubes to check for any bacterial organism problems before they found the Crohns and when I did bring up the yeast/antibotic theory my doctor poo pooed it - no pun intened...interesting theory but until we know more that is all it will be I guess.  I also wonder when I went to Mexico years ago and picked up a nasty bug that left me with Montazuma's revenge if that had anything to do with it but again the doctors don't know enough yet ...It is like - did the chicken or egg come first - the bacterial invader or the immune system going wacky allowing the bacteria to run rampant...and so the debate continues...let me know if you find anything more out or have any more ideas...


If your doctor "poo poos" anything, get a new doctor.


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## lukefarrell

Hi All, I thought I might give my tuppence...

I was diagnosed with crohns in 2001 and after 3 major flares (D, vomitting, severe pain, fatigue, weightloss) and I have pretty much been in remission since a small bowel resection in 2003. I have been taking Azathioprine since then and it seems to keep me pretty well.

I had surgery in September 2012 - stricureplasty and it was done via laparotomy. I developed a wound infection and it took about 14/15 weeks for the wound to fully close. As part of the fight against the infection I took Metronidazole for 4 weeks, 4 times a day - quite a big/long dose. 

Fast forward to Jan/Feb 2013 and I am now being treated with Entocort for a mini flare after displaying crohns symtoms for 6-8 weeks or so. However during the period of my surgery in 2012 I stopped taking Azathioprine for about 3 months.

So whether the antibiotics have contributed to the cause of this flare (my first in 10 years) or not, its very diffuclt to say, but its possible. 

Luke


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## Lindy Lou

Is there anyone out there who feels that anti biotics have helped their crohn's symptoms.  After a week of Augmentum (for a chest infection) I felt so much better.  Where can I go from here, don't think my GI will want to change any meds.While taking Augmentum I stopped methotrexate as it interacted with the anti biotic,  I have not resumed the methotrexate and have not noticed any difference in my symptoms.  Is there any danger giving up methotrexate suddenly.

Fatigue is my worst symptom


Pred: 7 mgs per day
Humira: 1 weekly injection


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## wildbill_52280

Lindy Lou said:


> Is there anyone out there who feels that anti biotics have helped their crohn's symptoms.  After a week of Augmentum (for a chest infection) I felt so much better.  Where can I go from here, don't think my GI will want to change any meds.While taking Augmentum I stopped methotrexate as it interacted with the anti biotic,  I have not resumed the methotrexate and have not noticed any difference in my symptoms.  Is there any danger giving up methotrexate suddenly.
> 
> Fatigue is my worst symptom
> 
> 
> Pred: 7 mgs per day
> Humira: 1 weekly injection


when your intestine is already healthy, antibiotics are bad.

but after the good bacteria is damaged and you are now unable to eliminate the bad bacteria from the environment, antibiotics can help you control the pathogens that were once controlled by good bacteria, causing a reduction in symptoms.


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## CheerBear12

The same thing happened to me I'd had three sets of antibiotics in a few months problematic wisdom tooth and ever since starting them I had the runs and it just wouldn't stop no matter what I did. I'd suffered 4 months before I went to the doctor he gave me Imodium! I took it a week and then I got admitted to hospital with severe pains in my stomach mainly left side and I was going at least 20 times a day if not more. They put me on pred, flagyl, infliximab 1 infusion. Nothing was working I was getting sicker and sicker pain by this point had spread to all of my stomach. By this point I was going 30-40 times a day. I eventually had to have a sub total colectomy with ileostomy it was too save my life my large bowel could of burst at any time which of killed me at anytime. My surgeon said my bowel was the worst he had seen and I'm sure it had something to do with the antibiotics and Imodium I had been given I won't ever know for sure as I have been diagnosed with indeterminate colitis I had symptoms of both ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease. They thought I had severe uc at first until had second opinion. I'm due to get my rectum and anus removed in 8 weeks i feel i don't have a choice with my diagnosis  I spent 6 weeks in hospital.


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## Guest2383

:confused2:As Ive mentioned in previous posts, My CD developed post- operatively  emergency appendectomy, bowel resection & peritonitis].  Whilst in hospital, feeling somewhat knocked around, I was given IV Flagyl [Metronidazole]. On discharge this medication was maintained at 750 mg TDS for a further 21 days.
I recall having a very sore ulcerated tongue resultant from this antibiotic

Curiously, Flagyl is *contraindicated *for people having CD. Before the operation, I was priorly asymptomatic of Crohn's or any other gut problems. 

Although, this occurred over 18 years ago, I wonder whether Flagyl may have been the genie that opened a dormant CD bottle?


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## aloe

I was on tetracycline as a teen for acne, and was diagnosed with Crohn's at 19. The doctors always ask me a lot about that, so I've been thinking it's probably what pushed it over the edge. But not everyone who takes antibiotics gets it. My brother also took tetracycline, and he hasn't gotten it. So we must have some weakness on board and the antibiotics help trigger it.


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## JohnnyRottenAppleseed

Zpack causes me to flare and cipro/flagyl knock the flare out immediately
For me. Weird, eh?


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## Ihurt

I am fairly certain that crohns is caused by a bacteia. I mean when people are given antibitoics, what happens? The good gut flora are wiped out and if there are too many bad bacterias left, well they take over and cause massive damage. Also I think even a bout of gastroenteritis can cause crohns as well, I mean anything that alters the gut flora in any way has the potential to cause crohns or other digestive diseases ( i.e. antibitoics, surgery, stomach viruses, etc.). 

I have been having all kinds of gut issues for the last two years. Well I have also been on low dose antibitoics to prevent the bad UTI's I get as I have IC bladder as well. I am not diagnosed yet( gastro thinks IBS), I dont think it is IBS though. NOt with how much pain I am in. I still have to do tests. But anyhow, I also noticed that after my husband brought home the intestinal flu 2 years ago, that is when my intestinal pain really took off and got bad. I always take high doses of probitoics every day( over 50 billiion) just to help my gut out. I mean especially since I have to be on low dose antibiotics. Anyone who ever takes any kind of antibitoic should always be on probitoics. I dont know why doctors do not tell their patients to take probiotics when they prescribe antibitoics. THey know how much harm antibiotics can and do cause...I just dont get it.


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## Sarah50

I was on strong antibiotics 3 times last year for an infection in a tooth and dental surgery.  I didn't even eat yogurt, never mind take probiotics - and I agree with you, Ihurt, that all of us with or without crohns or UC should be taking probiotics regularly to keep the gut flora balanced.  I had a lot of stress last fall so between the antibiotics and stress..... I contracted crohn's.    

You also need to buy a good probiotic that needs to be refrigerated and has a mix of bacteria, as far as I read.  I found my probiotics through a naturopath who had his manufactured and wrote a lot about probiotics and why you need them.  They're called NWC Naturals "Pro-Biotics Plus".  Each tablet contains 5.5 billion bacteria, 12 stabilized strains and chelated zinc.  If you check out the website, check out his video on probiotics.  He's written books, too. 

http://nwcnaturals.com/


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## nogutsnoglory

I was having solid stools for a while and needed antibiotics for an upper respiratory infection. Since then I have had non stop diarrhea even after using high dose probiotics.


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## Ihurt

which probiotic were you using? Did it have at least more than 12 different strains of bacteria in it? Also was it refridgerated? There is also a probiotic out there called florastor.It is actually a yeast base probiotic.  It is suppose to help with balancing the gut flora. You can take it along with other probiotics. I know some people will buy the acidophilis over the counter at their local pharmacy. That will not work. You need to be taking one that has Many different strains of bacteria in it... Antibiotics are such a curse. I hate the fact that we have to use them.. I swear they are the real cause of a lot of the diseases and infections that are out there today. They are the blessing and the curse!







nogutsnoglory said:


> I was having solid stools for a while and needed antibiotics for an upper respiratory infection. Since then I have had non stop diarrhea even after using high dose probiotics.


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## nogutsnoglory

I was using the 200 billion probiotic by Renew Life. It made my symptoms worse and I would not recommend it. 

http://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-flora-super-critical-200-billion.html

I now started on Healthy Trinity by Natren. http://www.natren.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=N&Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=019


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## Ihurt

Wow, I am actually taking the 50 billion by renewlife, have been for years now. I guess that just goes to show that everyone is different. I do know that some people can have issues if they start taking huge doses of probiotics right away. Sometimes you have to wean on to them like take the smaller amounts and then work your way up. But again, some people can actually get diarreha from taking probitoics. Have you maybe tried a different brand of probitoic? So sorry you had that kind of reaction. Were you taking the probitoics while you were on the antibiotic?? And were you spacing the probitoics at least 3 hours from taking the antibitoic? How is this new probitoic working for you so far??








nogutsnoglory said:


> I was using the 200 billion probiotic by Renew Life. It made my symptoms worse and I would not recommend it.
> 
> http://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-flora-super-critical-200-billion.html
> 
> I now started on Healthy Trinity by Natren. http://www.natren.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=N&Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=019


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## randy.stand

Guys I'm a Nurse and whilst its only rumours and nothing concrete about the link between anti biotics and crohns I have heard it. I'm a crohns sufferer too, back in remission for about 8 months. Now, I have a really bad chest infection. I need to take amoxicillin, just a weeks course, I've always suffered from chest infections before that flare a year ago and never went into a flare after. You reckon they are ok to take? There is no official problems with taking Antibiotics whilst on Crohns treatment but suffering here, can barely breathe and need to know where I should take them...?


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## JohnnyRottenAppleseed

Shhhhh. They have $26,000 a year Humira to sell. ;-). I've posted before that I flare after a zpack and cipro/flagyl knocks out my flare in 3 days. I'm thinking C diff. Also I started a thread about the gut biome projects going on sequencing gut bacteria. It's a crowd sourced health study I am a part of. I will definitely be taking samples when symptom free and after a flare.


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## nogutsnoglory

I hurt I took the 50 billion version too and didn't have the same painful cramps but it didn't help me out. 

I'm on my second day of Healthy Trinity so I have no clue just yet.


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## JohnnyRottenAppleseed

I'm starting to think (based in self experimentation) that probiotics help but if there is serious overgrowth of bad bacteria then it won't help that much. I think that based on taking probiotics while flaring and not noticing major results until after nuking my gut with cipro/ flagyl and then resuming probiotics. S Boulardi is supposed to help keep bad bacteria under control I would try that stuff you guys. It's supposed to be good against c diff.


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## Sarah50

randy.stand said:


> Guys I'm a Nurse and whilst its only rumours and nothing concrete about the link between anti biotics and crohns I have heard it. I'm a crohns sufferer too, back in remission for about 8 months. Now, I have a really bad chest infection. I need to take amoxicillin, just a weeks course, I've always suffered from chest infections before that flare a year ago and never went into a flare after. You reckon they are ok to take? There is no official problems with taking Antibiotics whilst on Crohns treatment but suffering here, can barely breathe and need to know where I should take them...?


Yes, I would definitely take antibiotics if they're needed, like for your bad chest infection.  You should be on Probiotics at the same time or definitely after taking the antibiotics.  Make sure you get a brand that has to be refrigerated, and has a mix of bacteria.  I'll give you a link to what I use - recommended by a naturopath doctor, "Pro-Biotics Plus":

Puts Back What Antibiotics Kill Off
Boosting Natural Immune Defenses
Supports Digestive Health
Supports Good Regularity and Bowel Function
Soothes effects of occasional heartburn
Pre-Biotics with 5.5 Billion CFUs per Tablet

http://nwcnaturals.com/featured/pro-biotics-plus-chewables.html


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## JohnnyRottenAppleseed

I always take yogurt and probiotics after antibiotics. My pediatrician always told me to eat yogurt while on antibiotics.


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## CheerBear12

I had activia after stopping antibiotics never worked nothing did only surgery. I regret having antibiotics now understably I'm wary of them now the last set were really strong.


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## Ihurt

Yes, that is what I take daily, it is S buallardi ( I use the brand name florastor). They also have one by Jarrow that is suppose to be pretty good. I started taking it daily almost a year and half ago since I have to be on low dose antibitoics to prevent severe UTI's I was getting. I guess the S buallardi is suppose to hold the bad bacteria at bay ( s buallardi is a type of yeast, it is also suppose to help weed out Candida overgrowth as well). And yes,  I have heard it helps with C-diff too. 

The only odd thing is that there are some people can take tons of antibiotics and be fine. I just dont get it. I mean I know I talked to a physician about it once at length wondering if antibiotics are linked to crohns and other digestive issues. This doctor told me that crohns has been linked in "babies and toddlers" who have used antibiotics. He said likely because their digestive tracts were not developed enough. But another odd thing is that crohns seems to be on the rise. I  think there are a lot of possible causes to Crohn's. I mean the crap that is put in out food may be a huge factor as well. I mean I try and eat only organic vegetables and fruits if and when I eat them. I only eat meats( chicken or turkey or fish) that is raised free without antibitoics and hormones. No GMO's. 

Anyhow, it is pretty scary. 









JohnnyO said:


> I'm starting to think (based in self experimentation) that probiotics help but if there is serious overgrowth of bad bacteria then it won't help that much. I think that based on taking probiotics while flaring and not noticing major results until after nuking my gut with cipro/ flagyl and then resuming probiotics. S Boulardi is supposed to help keep bad bacteria under control I would try that stuff you guys. It's supposed to be good against c diff.


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## nibnobsam

g_1988, it's interesting you say you developed Crohn's after taking antibiotics. I'm currently doing my final year project on Crohn's and taking antibiotics could have opened the doors to your Crohn's disease. It is likely you were already genetically susceptible, but changing the delicate balance of your intestinal flora can have affects on the disease. How exactly it's related is unknown, but their is a balance between your gut bacteria, gut immunity, genetics and other environmental factors. How old were you when you started having diarrhea?

My Crohn's disease just developed out of the blue when I was 16, no known trigger.


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## unitydnk

Mine started after using OTC probotics for the first time. interesting.


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## Ihurt

Wow, that is unusual. Did you by chance take antibiotics before taking the probiotics?








unitydnk said:


> Mine started after using OTC probotics for the first time. interesting.


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## unitydnk

6 months before but I am researching whether yeast over growth may be a trigger. Killing the bacteria with antibiotics would open a gate for yeast to have a hay day. 
to be honest I was doing a colon cleanse but the bleeding started after i started the probotics. IDK but I will be trying a candida diet to kill as much yeast as I can. It is worth a try


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## Aphrodite_x

I was taking the tablets Champix for help stopping smoking. Side effects included blood in stools, inflammation of the stomach etc. I got these side effects and they never ever left me. Was dx about 6 months later.

When I first mentioned it to my consultant, she kind of brushed it under the carpet. Got the feeling I wasnt the first person to bring it up


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## Ihurt

Wow, I believe a lot of meds out there CAN cause diseases and such. The doctors and Pharma do not like to admit this though. I mean I have yet to see a doctor admit that a simple medication can and does cause serious illness and issues for people. I have lots of health issues and got sick back in 2003 with a nasty virus( caused by a flu shot) that totally messed up my immune system. I mean I take it back, I did have agree that the flu shot did cause me to get sick. All the other doctors poo-pooed it saying the flu shot cant make you sick, blah, blah, blah...

Then the one doctor I was seeing said that it is true, the flu shot will not give you the flu, BUT he said what they don't tell you is that your immune system may react to the vaccine and that can make you VERY sick. Don't you just love it when doctors do not bother telling people these things??? Well ever since I got that shot I have had so many health issues happening to me. It was like the domino effect. So yeah, I truly believe any drug can cause serious issues for anyone. I mean why It happens to some and not others I think depends on a persons immune system and body make up I guess and also whether the person is pre-genetically disposed to getting these diseases. 












Aphrodite_x said:


> I was taking the tablets Champix for help stopping smoking. Side effects included blood in stools, inflammation of the stomach etc. I got these side effects and they never ever left me. Was dx about 6 months later.
> 
> When I first mentioned it to my consultant, she kind of brushed it under the carpet. Got the feeling I wasnt the first person to bring it up


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## Aphrodite_x

Ihurt said:


> Wow, I believe a lot of meds out there CAN cause diseases and such. The doctors and Pharma do not like to admit this though. I mean I have yet to see a doctor admit that a simple medication can and does cause serious illness and issues for people. I have lots of health issues and got sick back in 2003 with a nasty virus( caused by a flu shot) that totally messed up my immune system. I mean I take it back, I did have agree that the flu shot did cause me to get sick. All the other doctors poo-pooed it saying the flu shot cant make you sick, blah, blah, blah...
> 
> Then the one doctor I was seeing said that it is true, the flu shot will not give you the flu, BUT he said what they don't tell you is that your immune system may react to the vaccine and that can make you VERY sick. Don't you just love it when doctors do not bother telling people these things??? Well ever since I got that shot I have had so many health issues happening to me. It was like the domino effect. So yeah, I truly believe any drug can cause serious issues for anyone. I mean why It happens to some and not others I think depends on a persons immune system and body make up I guess and also whether the person is pre-genetically disposed to getting these diseases.


What was strange is that my dad was taking the same tablets for stopping smoking and he had the same symptoms. He ended up with gallstones and had to have them removed. I'd rather have had that than CD! 

I dont know if I think the tablets caused my CD or if they just helped it along, but I know they had something to do with it.


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## Ihurt

Geez, how awful! See, this is why I cringe when my doctors try and give me medications. I am so afraid to take them due their toxic side effects. I happen to be very sensitive to chemicals as it is. Too bad there is no way you could go after the makers of Chantix. I mean it states that is can cause bleeding in the bowels so obviously it is the culprit for you getting crohns. I really think they need to study these meds more before they put them out on the market sometimes. I mean some of the side effects are devastating. Even some of the crohns meds are scary as hell as far as the side effects 
go ( lymphoma, cancer, TB etc....). I mean that is bad. 








Aphrodite_x said:


> What was strange is that my dad was taking the same tablets for stopping smoking and he had the same symptoms. He ended up with gallstones and had to have them removed. I'd rather have had that than CD!
> 
> I dont know if I think the tablets caused my CD or if they just helped it along, but I know they had something to do with it.


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## UnXmas

Ihurt said:


> Wow, I believe a lot of meds out there CAN cause diseases and such. The doctors and Pharma do not like to admit this though. I mean I have yet to see a doctor admit that a simple medication can and does cause serious illness and issues for people. I have lots of health issues and got sick back in 2003 with a nasty virus( caused by a flu shot) that totally messed up my immune system. I mean I take it back, I did have agree that the flu shot did cause me to get sick. All the other doctors poo-pooed it saying the flu shot cant make you sick, blah, blah, blah...
> 
> Then the one doctor I was seeing said that it is true, the flu shot will not give you the flu, BUT he said what they don't tell you is that your immune system may react to the vaccine and that can make you VERY sick. Don't you just love it when doctors do not bother telling people these things??? Well ever since I got that shot I have had so many health issues happening to me. It was like the domino effect. So yeah, I truly believe any drug can cause serious issues for anyone. I mean why It happens to some and not others I think depends on a persons immune system and body make up I guess and also whether the person is pre-genetically disposed to getting these diseases.


I don't know - mostly my doctors do tell me about side effects, and they've been hesitant to prescribe me some drugs because they don't feel it's worth the risks. They were hesitant about prescribing me contraceptive pills because of the blood clot risk (I wasn't bothered about it), and in the end we reached a compromise and they prescribed a different brand. 

When I was having trouble sleeping on prednisone and asked for sleeping pills, both doctors I saw gave a long explanation about the risks of addiction and tolerance that benzo pills carry, and instead prescribed amitriptyline which is not addictive.

Perhaps it's that they go by conclusive research, do you think? It's been proven and accepted that certain sleeping pills are addictive, that birth control pills carry a risk of blood clots. But if it's not actually been concluded that flu shots could have caused your health problems, why would they warn you about it? They have to be able to back up their statements. What if you hadn't had the flu shot because they warned you it had health risks, then you'd got ill or even died from flu? If the grounds on which they had warned you not to take it were unproven, they'd get into an awful lot of trouble.

There may be some cases where pharmaceutical companies or doctors try to cover up the downsides of a drug, but I think it's unlikely they'd deny a proven risk or avoid researching a medication so as not to uncover its risks. People dying or getting sick as a result of medication would be worse for them than people being put off trying a medication due to warnings.

So I'm surprised you say you've never heard a doctor admit that a medication can produce serious side effects. Have you ever had steroids or something that risky prescribed? They don't talk me through every side effect listed on the information leaflet (which is always included in my prescriptions), but every time I've had a prescription for a medication that was potentially dangerous the doctor has told me of the risks.


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## Ihurt

Hey Unxmas, 

I get what your saying. Well as far as the flu shot goes, actually I have talked to many people who have said the same thing, they got so messed up from it. No one in my family, including my in-laws will touch the flu vaccine. I mean yes grant it, it does prevent a lot of people from getting the flu which can be serious, but for a lot it does not even prevent it! There are so many strains of the flu that half the time the vaccine they give out will not even protect the person depending on which strain seems to be circulating. Also did you know that they put formaldehyde in the flu vaccine as a preservative? That cannot be good to inject into a person. I mean honestly, had I educated myself better at the time regarding the flu shot and the adverse issues it can cause, I NEVER would have gotten it, ever. My dad is 68 years old and said he would NEVER get a flu shot again. He said he use to get one every year when my mom was alive( when he would still go to the doctor) and he said every time he got it, he would be sick that whole winter!! He said he would come down with all sorts of crap. Well after my mom passed and he saw how the medical field treated her and now how they are treating me, well he will never step foot into a doctors office again unless he is dying he said. But he said that since he stopped getting the flu shot, he is WAY healthier. My MIL said the same thing and so did my neighbor so there is something to it. I mean sure, some may be able to take it ok, and it does not bother them and that is great. But for me especially since getting chronically sick my primary care doc said it would not be wise to get a flu shot when having any type of autoimmune issue, she said it could really mess me up. My rheumatologist also said the same thing, he said people with autoimmune diseases should not be exposed to vaccines that the immune response could be very bad. Either way I would not get one ever again. 

Hmm, I don't know, I have been handed lots of prescriptions and I have even had BAD side effects and doctors have still blown me off saying, "oh, it wasn't the drug"! Seriously. I still remember when I was prescribed cipro for a UTI I had a few years back. Well I took It and by the third day I woke up in agony with severe throbbing in my upper arm. It was bad. I went to the doctor who I was seeing at that time who prescribed it and told him about the side effect. He said there is no way it is the cipro doing that to just stay on it. Well I went and talked to my pharmacist. When I told her my symptoms she told me to stop that right away and not even take it again that it can cause spontaneous tendon ruptures and can really mess up your tendons. I mean luckily I talked to her or I would have probably ruptured my tendon had I stayed on that stuff. But the doctor argued with me saying it was not the cipro causing it. Most doctors are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies and they get big kick backs when they prescribe meds out so they are not likely to tell you if there are big risks involved( think about it, no one would take the meds then). I mean some doctors might, but most wont, and sadly, most doctors do not even know what the risks are as sad as that is. I mean honestly when I need info on a medication, I go straight to my pharmacist because they DO know the side effects and potential harm that some drugs can cause. 

I have been on prednisone before and the only thing I was ever told was that you cannot take it long term or repeatedly or you are at risk for having bone issues and possible at risk for getting diabetes. That was what I was told. I mean and you know those side effects the doctor mentioned is saying it lightly. Steroids can destroy your body. My SIL has lupus, she has had it for 16 years now. She said from taking prednisone on and off all those years her poor bones are so brittle that she has had to have 4 surgeries due to it and still needs 2 more surgeries. She said the prednisone has destroyed her and caused he sooo many health issues. She said she cannot and will not even take it again. 

Now I will admit the one med that doctors DO NOT like to prescribe and will tell you the worst case scenarios with are pain meds! I mean they do Not ever like prescribe them. But ironically it has nothing to do with concern for the patient. Nope, my primary care doc said they try and steer patients away from them because every time the hand a script for them out, they have to fill out a TON of paper work explaining why. She said they hate going through all the red tape so they rather not write out scripts for them. I mean isn't that sad??? I mean they will prescribe other meds without hesitation to their patients that have WAY more side effects and they wont blink an eye when prescribing them, but pain meds which albeit, they do have some bad side effects, but they make it like pain meds will kill you just in order to avoid all the work. Sad in my opinion.


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## UnXmas

I think you've kind of missed my point. Anecdotal evidence (what you or your friends/family experienced) is not the same as evidence from research. Doctors will (and have to) go by research - not by what a patient believes has happened to them. This is because, no matter how clear the correlation between a med and a side effect may seem to you, you could have it wrong as there are too many variables and you and the people you know are not a big enough (or representative enough) of a group to determine whether there's a relationship between medication and side effect. 

For example: you have a lot of complicated and undiagnosed symptoms. If you take a new med, or get a flu shot, and then get new symptoms, how can you be certain whether the new symptoms are a result of the med or flu shot, when you get new unexplained symptoms often anyway? Or, if you know, say, three people who get a symptom after a flu shot, that may seem convincing to you, but if a research study was carried out on thousands of people, and only three got symptoms after a flu shot, it might start to look more like the symptoms were a coincidence as so many people did not get any.

So however convinced you are about side effects, and however many people you know who got side effects, the doctor can not base his warnings on your personal experiences. And he certainly can't warn you in advance. Even if you do get a side effect from a flu shot, if no one else has had it before, if it's not been proven, how could he have told you in advance?


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## Ihurt

I understand what you are saying, I do. But for me I was completely healthy and got that flu shot back in 2003 and that is when things went bad. I mean I even had one doctor tell me Yes, he was certain I got sick from the flu shot. I will be honest with you, all those trials they do on meds, they usually only use a certain number of people( not enough) and yes, there may be just a couple that have bad adverse reactions in that trial study. When this happens the FDA will still go ahead and approve a medication( even if a few people have died due to the drug). What they do is they will then list this as a potential side effect on the leaflet you get when you pick up your script. Most people never even read those things, I never did. And you are right, not everyone has issues with certain medications. Or even the Flu shot, sure there are people who get it all the time and are ok with it. But there are many many people who have issues with it. This explains why so many people never get the flu shot. I know every year the news is always pushing and advertising for people to get the shot. They say that only 55% of people actually will get the shot. There is a reason for this. A lot of people have had issues when getting the shot. I mean for me and for others I know who have gotten the shot and had issues, it was 100% certainly from that shot. I mean even for my dad who is healthy as a horse ( thank God), well every time he got the shot he would be sick that whole winter and year with all kinds of crap and viruses. When you get a flu shot your body does not recognize it as a vaccine, it just looks at it like it is a foreign invader. Well the natural immune response is to go after it. Well when that happens it can leave ones immune system low and vulnerable to other sicknesses. This is what happened to me. Well when my dad stopped getting the flu shot, he maybe gets one cold a year, he is otherwise healthy. And I am very thankful he is healthy. I mean do I worry he could get the flu and die? Yeah, that is a possibility. But he thinks he has a better chance fighting the flu itself. I mean if you get the shot and you still get the flu( the shot only covers a small number of flu viruses) well then you are really screwed as your immune system will be down due to trying to fight the vaccine. 

But anyhow, I do understand what you are saying. I mean yes, it is true, I have all sorts of issues now and I get many side effects from meds which is why I cannot take them. I mean all drugs are toxic to the body, they are not natural. Most people can tolerate them to an extent though. Unfortunately for me, my body is very sensitive and cannot tolerate them. It sucks, it really does. It makes it very hard for me. But all I was saying is that a lot of the meds out there have known serious adverse reactions that do happen and I just think doctors should warn their patients about them before prescribing some of these medications as not all people will read those leaflets they get with their script. A lot of lives would probably be saved if people knew.


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## JohnnyRottenAppleseed

Bayer and FDA knowingly sent HIV tainted meds to Latin American after they were pulled from US. Don't trust the FDA, "doctors", or Big Pharma: http://www.getholistichealth.com/35...-knowingly-gave-hiv-to-thousands-of-children/

Also, for "doctors" to brush over medication side effects is ignorant at best as FDA approved meds kill 100,000 Americans yearly.


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## nogutsnoglory

The FDA has its flaws but thank God for government agencies that ensure our drugs are safe, monitored and effective. Of course drugs are approved that still damage people but they only approve those that are mostly found to be safe. No drug would ever get approval because someone has had a reaction or death to every drug on the planet. 

These conspiracies and scare tactics aren't helpful. We need to make sure our governments operate at the highest level but nobody is out to get us.

I'm no defender of big pharma but I do believe the government has our best interest in heart. We just need to keep them in check and work for us the people.


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## UnXmas

Ihurt: this is the problem with going by personal experiences though. I get the flu shot, and I have never had a problem from it (and have never got flu either). If you really have got medical problems that resulted from the flu shot, then I'm guessing that knowing that I got no side effects from it whatsoever doesn't mean much to you. You can't assess the potential dangers of a medication just by what someone tells you - or, doctors can't anyway.

I'm not sure what the system is in the US, but isn't there a way you can report adverse drug reactions? If you really believe you're getting sick from vaccines and medications in ways that there were no warnings for, can't you report them?

And if you don't feel your doctors tell you all the possible adverse reactions, find new doctors! (Though I know that's easier said than done sometimes.) There are doctors who are thorough in their warnings. And I know most people probably don't, but I actually do read every potential side effect on the info. leaflets.  

The best doctors should tailor the information they provide to the patient. Not only should they be aware that certain characteristics can make side effects more likely (e.g. a patient's sex, age, other medical conditions), but they should also take into account whether a patient has accurately understood any warnings that are given. For example, my surgeon knows me so well by now, he knows I don't get overly nervous about side effects and he knows I can read and understand information leaflets. So it's understandable that he doesn't always take the time to spell out side effects as he might with some other patients (or as he did with me when he first started treating me). If you can find a really good doctor, tell him how sensitive you are to drugs and how it worries you - it might make him spend a little extra time on making sure you're clear on all the risks.


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## Ihurt

Notgutsnoglory: I mean yes, having the FDA is a good idea, but they are so flawed. Do you ever notice how many lawsuits there are towards drug companies due to severe adverse reactions and even death due to drug side effects? I do understand also that Not everyone will have these side effects, some will do fine with the meds or some will have some sort of reaction, it may be mild, It may be serious, and it may be deadly. I also understand that they cannot rip a drug off the market just because a couple people had a bad side effect. But with a lot of these meds, these side effects are Not so rare. I mean I was just talking to my regular doctor about medications. My gastro doc gave me this Tricyclic med( Elavil) to take for my pain. After being on it for a week my heart started acting crazy. Well I told him and he said he did not think it was the med doing this. I went to my regular doctor and she told me to get off it right away saying that ALL the tricyclic meds have the potential to mess up the heart!!! I mean thankfully I do have a primary care doc who is Very honest and upfront with me. She is the one who told me to Never get another flu shot again. But my point being is that yes it is important to have an FDA that monitors stuff, but out FDA here is very corrupt and not very trustworthy. I mean look at all the GMO's that allowed into our foods we eat..... That is another story though. 

UNXMAS:  It is possible to report when you have a reaction to a drug here, but nothing will come of it. I have reported it when I had a very bad reaction. It is not an easy process either. They have you call a number then they send you out stuff in the mail to fill out ( this process can take weeks to months) and then when you get the stuff you have to fill it out and send it in. That is it, I mean nothing is ever done about it though. It is almost a waste of time.


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## JohnnyRottenAppleseed

They love people like you. Don't forget your flu $hot!

Anyways, I just got the Tetanus/Pertusis shot, got suckered into it, I've been on the shutter since I hope it's just what I've been eating. 



nogutsnoglory said:


> The FDA has its flaws but thank God for government agencies that ensure our drugs are safe, monitored and effective. Of course drugs are approved that still damage people but they only approve those that are mostly found to be safe. No drug would ever get approval because someone has had a reaction or death to every drug on the planet.
> 
> These conspiracies and scare tactics aren't helpful. We need to make sure our governments operate at the highest level but nobody is out to get us.
> 
> I'm no defender of big pharma but I do believe the government has our best interest in heart. We just need to keep them in check and work for us the people.


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## nogutsnoglory

You know how many people have been saved thanks to flu shots? Especially those of who are immune compromised. Nobody is forcing you to get a flu shot. 

Take a look at other countries around the world and see how well they are fairing. People drop dead from minor sicknesses and there is no agency to help or gain control of the situation.


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## UnXmas

Ihurt said:


> Notgutsnoglory:  I mean I was just talking to my regular doctor about medications. My gastro doc gave me this Tricyclic med( Elavil) to take for my pain. After being on it for a week my heart started acting crazy. Well I told him and he said he did not think it was the med doing this. I went to my regular doctor and she told me to get off it right away saying that ALL the tricyclic meds have the potential to mess up the heart!!!


Elavil (amitriptyline) pretty much saved my life. It allows me to sleep properly and stops me feeling anywhere near so anxious and depressed as I used to. It does have a lot of side effects, and you're right that it can cause heart problems and your doctor should not have denied that. But I'm very glad that even though it causes problems for some people it hasn't been withdrawn. It hasn't literally saved my life in physical terms, but I can no longer imagine how I ever coped emotionally without it. Did you have a known heart condition before you took it? If you did, your doctor shouldn't have prescribed it for you without discussing the risks with you. Were you taking a very low dose? If you were, that might possibly be why your doctor didn't think the med was responsible, as it usually only causes side effects at the higher levels that it's prescribed at as an antidepressant and not so much at the lower levels that it's prescribed at for pain relief or insomnia.


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## UnXmas

As for flu shots: I get them on the NHS and there's often media stories about how there's a shortage. My doctor doesn't get any extra money for getting me to have one. My GP gives them to me because I have multiple health problems that mean that if I did get flu, I'd be more likely to have serious complications than the average person. There's no conspiracy behind it.


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## Tracey1788

Hi There

I found your post very interesting.I was on a variety of highdose antiobiotics in January this year for 7 weeks following breast sepsis after a core needle biopsy. Two weeks after stopping my pills I started to get tummy pains that caused me to go to hospital. First the drs thought it was my appendix but then my blood were fine and another GI specialist said I had IBS. I didn't accept that because the only symptoms I had of IBS over the years was proctalgia.

As my pains persisted along with explosive bowels I refused to accept that diagnosis and went back to my GP. Had a lot of bloodtests all negative with the exception of Folate deficiency. Faecal Calprotectin was raised so I underwent a Colonoscopy that revealed inflammation at the terminal Ileum.

Also a cystic lesion was noted on my pancreas via an  MRI scan in addition to a Gallstone. Im having an Mre in a couple of weeks and the GI specialist thinks I have crohns. I have not been in contact with anyone who has had TB and have not been using NSAIDS.

I pointed out my antiobiotic usage to my specialist and my thoughts that it was linked  to my current medical condition but he wasn't concerned to be honest.


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## nogutsnoglory

Tracey I also find doctors shrug or get very dismissive about the cause of things. They don't seem to want to discuss the root but merely want to treat the symptoms. I think it's a rare doctor who spends time to get the backstory and try to put the puzzle pieces together.


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## wildbill_52280

In my experiance i had GI issues after taking amoxicillin clavulanic acid. but i may have slowly been damaging my gut bacteria over the years with other course of antibiotics for acne. I have been on about 3 courses of doxycycline 2 months at a time for each course, totaling 6 months during the years 2000-2006, then a course of amoxicillin clavulanic acid for bronchitis in 2008 which was the turning point in my health. 

So i wondered if i could find any scientific support for the theory they were involved in me getting crohn's, besides my own observations of course, and here is what i have found.

in a few studies of the bacterial composition in ibd they have found less diversity in the group clostridia cluster xiva bacteria, which are necessary residents, which are present in healthy controls, suggesting some relationship to disease state. i believe now this is largely causative. 

Here  the only study i could find on antibiotic associated diarhea with amoxicillin clavulanic acid in a human being and shows its ability to severely suppress the group clostridia cluster xiva.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC356823/

Here is a report of onset of crohns after eradication of h pylori with amoxicillin. yet in the abstract they hypothesize the cause of this case of crohns to have been related to h pylori and not the amoxicillin. I propose, it was the amoxicillin, due to my own experiance, and how this antibiotic specifically affects bacteria that is disturbed in IBD.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11208510


Here are two recent and large studies both finding a connection to antibiotics and IBD. The risk of IBD, reliably gets higher the more courses that have been taken.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/4/e794
http://faculty.vet.upenn.edu/gastro/documents/Hwang12-19-11ajg2011304a.pdf


----------



## JohnnyRottenAppleseed

To the Drs and anyone who think Crohn's isn't caused by bacteria, why then are fecal transplants do effective???


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## nogutsnoglory

JohnnyO you are giving false information. Fecal transplants are effective against C-diff. There is no proof that they are effective for crohn's but it will continue to be studied. 

If it was simply a bacterial problem, than antibiotics would be sufficient to cure crohn's. There are many variables.


----------



## Beach

UnXmas said:


> I think you've kind of missed my point. Anecdotal evidence (what you or your friends/family experienced) is not the same as evidence from research. Doctors will (and have to) go by research - not by what a patient believes has happened to them. This is because, no matter how clear the correlation between a med and a side effect may seem to you, you could have it wrong as there are too many variables and you and the people you know are not a big enough (or representative enough) of a group to determine whether there's a relationship between medication and side effect.
> 
> For example: you have a lot of complicated and undiagnosed symptoms. If you take a new med, or get a flu shot, and then get new symptoms, how can you be certain whether the new symptoms are a result of the med or flu shot, when you get new unexplained symptoms often anyway? Or, if you know, say, three people who get a symptom after a flu shot, that may seem convincing to you, but if a research study was carried out on thousands of people, and only three got symptoms after a flu shot, it might start to look more like the symptoms were a coincidence as so many people did not get any.
> 
> So however convinced you are about side effects, and however many people you know who got side effects, the doctor can not base his warnings on your personal experiences. And he certainly can't warn you in advance. Even if you do get a side effect from a flu shot, if no one else has had it before, if it's not been proven, how could he have told you in advance?


Well, sadly this has often not turned out to be the case.  Hopfully our medical systems can be improved in the future.  There has been a number of writings of late in the British Medical Journal on this problem of lack of evidence based medicine being used by medical professionals.  For example:

"British Medical Journal investigation finds that treatment guidelines issues to doctors can be lacking in evidence and riddled with conflicts of interest"

http://www.drbriffa.com/2013/06/26/...dence-and-riddled-with-conflicts-of-interest/ 

snippet:



> ...The fact is, many clinical guidelines are far from reliable and may not reflect the scientific facts at all. And, it seems, many doctors know this. For example, in one poll, only 49 per cent of doctors believed that the science supported the use of alteplase. Yet, alarmingly, 83 per cent said they would give this drug.
> 
> What this disparity probably reflects is the fact that doctors can often be fearful about not acting in according with the guidance they are issued, even if they believe it to be wrong. The author of the article puts it this way: “Doctors who are sceptical about the scientific basis of clinical guidelines have two choices: they can follow guidelines even though they suspect doing so will cause harm, or they can ignore them and do what they believe is right for their patients, thereby risking professional censure and possibly jeopardising their careers.”
> 
> The article ends with a quote from one doctor who stated: “We like to stick within the standard of care, because when the shit hits the fan we all want to be able to say we were just doing what everyone else is doing—even if what everyone else is doing isn’t very good.”
> 
> What sort of a system of medicine do we have that means that doctors are happy to recommend and administer treatments are not supported by the evidence, they themselves don’t believe in, are not beneficial, and perhaps do more harm than good, for fear of being out-of-step with their colleagues and profession?...


&

"BMJ review questions the ‘evidence’ on which flu vaccine policy is based"

http://www.drbriffa.com/2009/02/13/...vidence-on-which-flu-vaccine-policy-is-based/

&

"How do researchers end up recommending a drug they concede has no benefit?"

http://www.drbriffa.com/2013/03/28/...ommending-a-drug-they-concede-has-no-benefit/

snippet:



> Although medical practice has a sheen of being ‘evidence-based’, you don’t have to look to far to find a lot of what we do as doctors to be either untested or proven ineffective. I wrote about this recently here where I highlight an initiative by the British Medical Journal entitled ‘Too Much Medicine’ which seeks to draw attention to the issue. A very good idea, I think.
> 
> I believe one prime candidate for ‘Too Much Medicine’ is the cholesterol-reducing drug ezetimibe. It blocks cholesterol absorption from the gut and does a generally good job of dropping blood cholesterol levels, but as I am pains to point out, none of this matters a jot. The question we need to ask is: “What effect does taking ezetimibe have on health?”...


----------



## JohnnyRottenAppleseed

Not really, but maybe you are. "They" don't know what causes Crohn's/Colitis. I don't claim to. I am trying to find a cure and have induced remission in myself repeatedly using Cipro/Flagyl. From shitting myself to death to crapping solid logs on schedule. I have no agenda besides helping myself or others. Here is a link with a person who cured their friend by donating their good fecal sample. Just because the government hasn't endorsed the therapy, doesn't mean it works or doesn't:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/06/why-i-donated-my-stool/?_r=0

P.S. I have also induced Colitis/Crohn's symptoms by taking Z pack. But "it has nothing to do with bacteria." OK. Whatever you say! LOL!



nogutsnoglory said:


> JohnnyO you are giving false information. Fecal transplants are effective against C-diff. There is no proof that they are effective for crohn's but it will continue to be studied.
> 
> If it was simply a bacterial problem, than antibiotics would be sufficient to cure crohn's. There are many variables.


----------



## wildbill_52280

nogutsnoglory said:


> JohnnyO you are giving false information. Fecal transplants are effective against C-diff. There is no proof that they are effective for crohn's but it will continue to be studied.


if this is what you currently believe, then you haven't read this entire thread yet http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=52400.  Please read section 3.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

It's a promising therapy but its currently in trials. It's important that we don't make definitive statements about a therapy that's still being studied. It may turn out to be the most amazing therapy ever but so far there have been mixed results when it comes to Inflammatory Bowel Disease. 

Anyways this thread is about antibiotics so let's please try to stay on topic. I'm partially to blame for that but definitely agree that antibiotics can cause a flare. I'm not sure if the crohn's antibiotics like cipro and Flagyl would cause a flare though since they are used to treat the disease.


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## JohnnyRottenAppleseed

Cipro/Flagyl puts me in remission. Zpack puts me in a flare.


----------



## UnXmas

Beach: you're right that research into medications and their side effects can have problems and bias, and I'm sure there are cases when standards slip. But I would still think a doctor will get more reliable information if he goes by whatever research is available rather than going by what patients tell him they've experienced when taking a particular drug. And I think patients will usually get a clearer idea of the risks of side effects by going the official information than by what a few of their friends or relatives tell them.


----------



## Ihurt

I kind of think antibiotics can play a role in IBD. I have been on low dose antibiotics for years now to prevent UTI's ( Keflex low dose for 4 years, and now augmentin low dose for the last 8 months), they are the only thing that stops the horrid infections I get. BUT, I will say I am positive that they have messed my gut up! And by the way, I also take HUGE amounts of probiotics, actually I have been taking probiotics way before I even took antibiotics just because they are beneficial to the gut. I am 100% certain the probiotics have helped me in  terms of preventing GI effects from the antibiotics, but I still think the antibiotic has messed me up. That and I noticed my intestines got real bad really after I came down with a stomach flu 2 years ago. But then I have known people who have had to be on Big time antibiotics for years for treating chronic lyme disease and they did not get crohns or IBD so I am not sure what to think there. There must be something else to it. Maybe you have to already be prone to getting IBD in the first place I am not sure.

I have not been dx with crohns, my gastro keeps thinking IBS since my tests have not really shown anything. I know many people with IBS and they are NO where is sick as I am, sorry, the shoe for IBS just does not fit me or my symptoms. I do not know what I have really, but I don't think it is just IBS. 

Honestly, it is good to read all the medical research and studies, but I take them with a grain of salt( you don't even know how true these studies are anyhow). And usually the studies are done with a small number of subjects. I remember talking to my pharmacist about the reaction to the Elavil I had with it effecting my heart rhythm. I told her my GI said this was rare and usually did not happen in people who took this med, especially at low doses. She said actually it is not as rare as you think. She said when they hand you the leaflet stating possible drug side effects, it does not list all of them. She said it just lists the more common ones and heart disturbances was actually listed on the leaflet so it IS a common side effect I am guessing. Now when I am faced with taking a new drug if I have any questions, I will talk to  my pharmacist, they seem to be the ones who really know drugs, not the doctors. I really think doctors should have to be educated in pharmaceuticals since they hand out prescriptions for them. They really need to know about the potential adverse reactions and how they can effect some people. 

I am glad that there are meds out there that help people and treat certain diseases. I mean they help a lot of people out there. But there are side effects and consequences when you take any drug unfortunately. It sucks, but it is what it is. I mean steroids totally help people, but there is always consequences from taking them that can be pretty bad( sometimes worse than the disease you are trying to treat)! Just like with antibiotics. They are the blessing and the curse. They have saved lives, but they have also done tons of damage. I think it will be a good day when these researchers start trying to invest in finding out a "cause" for these diseases rather than trying to find a band aid to cover them up. Because in the end, without a cause, there can never be a cure.....( but then again, they want it that way).


----------



## wildbill_52280

Ihurt said:


> I kind of think antibiotics can play a role in IBD. I have been on low dose antibiotics for years now to prevent UTI's ( Keflex low dose for 4 years, and now augmentin low dose for the last 8 months), they are the only thing that stops the horrid infections I get. BUT, I will say I am positive that they have messed my gut up! And by the way, I also take HUGE amounts of probiotics, actually I have been taking probiotics way before I even took antibiotics just because they are beneficial to the gut. I am 100% certain the probiotics have helped me in  terms of preventing GI effects from the antibiotics, but I still think the antibiotic has messed me up. That and I noticed my intestines got real bad really after I came down with a stomach flu 2 years ago. But then I have known people who have had to be on Big time antibiotics for years for treating chronic lyme disease and they did not get crohns or IBD so I am not sure what to think there. There must be something else to it. Maybe you have to already be prone to getting IBD in the first place I am not sure.
> 
> I have not been dx with crohns, my gastro keeps thinking IBS since my tests have not really shown anything. I know many people with IBS and they are NO where is sick as I am, sorry, the shoe for IBS just does not fit me or my symptoms. I do not know what I have really, but I don't think it is just IBS.
> 
> Honestly, it is good to read all the medical research and studies, but I take them with a grain of salt( you don't even know how true these studies are anyhow). And usually the studies are done with a small number of subjects. I remember talking to my pharmacist about the reaction to the Elavil I had with it effecting my heart rhythm. I told her my GI said this was rare and usually did not happen in people who took this med, especially at low doses. She said actually it is not as rare as you think. She said when they hand you the leaflet stating possible drug side effects, it does not list all of them. She said it just lists the more common ones and heart disturbances was actually listed on the leaflet so it IS a common side effect I am guessing. Now when I am faced with taking a new drug if I have any questions, I will talk to  my pharmacist, they seem to be the ones who really know drugs, not the doctors. I really think doctors should have to be educated in pharmaceuticals since they hand out prescriptions for them. They really need to know about the potential adverse reactions and how they can effect some people.
> 
> I am glad that there are meds out there that help people and treat certain diseases. I mean they help a lot of people out there. But there are side effects and consequences when you take any drug unfortunately. It sucks, but it is what it is. I mean steroids totally help people, but there is always consequences from taking them that can be pretty bad( sometimes worse than the disease you are trying to treat)! Just like with antibiotics. They are the blessing and the curse. They have saved lives, but they have also done tons of damage. I think it will be a good day when these researchers start trying to invest in finding out a "cause" for these diseases rather than trying to find a band aid to cover them up. Because in the end, without a cause, there can never be a cure.....( but then again, they want it that way).


do you know which antibiotics these people have taken who not develop crohns?  they have identified certain antibiotics to be involved, so it does not apply to all antibiotics in general. IBD is not the only disease linked to antibiotic use, allergies are too. i too both doxycycline and amoxicillin, i believe both have been specifically linked to crohns.


The other factors are the diet you are currently on and fiber intake, which feeds good bacteria so it is less affected by antibiotics.


----------



## Traumanurse

Funny thing. Besides the antibiotic discussion, I've always wondered if my trip to Mexico started the downhill spiral to all the Crohns spiral. Really bad D after the trip. Steriotype huh?

Makes you wonder about the correlation between the normal bowel flora and antibiotics or what the antibiotic actually does in the bowel.

Interesting......


----------



## Ihurt

Well a good friend of mine went to Kansas city for lyme treatment and I know she was on 6 months of IV antibiotics. I know one was amoxicillin and the other was doxycycline. She also was on a year straight of heavy dose oral antibiotics after the IV's. I am not sure which ones she was taking orally for that year though, but they were broad spectrum I believe. 

As far as my diet goes, I have been on so many different ones, but for the last 6 months basically this is a sample of my diet,

Breakfast: Gluten Free pancakes ( like 4 small ones) and 1 banana

Snack: Organic yogurt with a teaspoon of organic granola

Luch: 2 very thin slices of organic turkey breast, a couple slices of organic avocado and half of an apple peeled ( organic)

Snack: Sometimes a small amount of organic greek yogurt or a hand full of sweet potato chips

Dinner: Usually baked chicken or turkey breast, organic boiled squash, and a vegetable( organic) very well cooked until very soft ( usually green beans, carrots or peas).

That is about it. I have found that I can be feeling pretty good for an amount of time and then all of sudden I am in a severe flare or some sort again but am still eating exactly the same thing so I do not think my issue is tied directly to my diet. 

I have tried other diets as well, like I have basically given up grains for the most part thinking that could be an issue, but since I am still having issues, that may not be the case. I also am just now researching about a syndrome called Ischemic Syndromes. These can cause the same symptoms are IBD and IBS but are supposedly harder to diagnose. 








wildbill_52280 said:


> do you know which antibiotics these people have taken who not develop crohns?  they have identified certain antibiotics to be involved, so it does not apply to all antibiotics in general. IBD is not the only disease linked to antibiotic use, allergies are too. i too both doxycycline and amoxicillin, i believe both have been specifically linked to crohns.
> 
> 
> The other factors are the diet you are currently on and fiber intake, which feeds good bacteria so it is less affected by antibiotics.


----------



## UnXmas

Ihurt: since with all the tests you've had it's unlikely you have IBD, have you asked your doctors about which gastro. diseases could result from a flu shot or from antibiotics, if you feel those triggered your symptoms? 

Also, how sure are you that your diet and probiotics are helping? Your diet seems very limited and lacking in calories, which is going to be bad for your health and will make it harder for your body to fight off illnesses. I used to be very strict with what I ate and what medications I took, but I finally realised that my health was a lost cause - I was going to be sick anyway, and all the rules I had set for myself and all the care I was taking to make sure I was as healthy as possible were not helping at all. Have you tried eating other foods or stopping taking probiotics and seeing if they even make your symptoms worse at all? I tried taking probiotics and they made no difference.


----------



## Tired

I am convinced that my Crohn's started because of antibiotics. I am sure of that, and nothing will convince me otherwise. Not only this, but both times I was hospitalized for severe flareups, they were caused because of antibiotics.

During my first hospitalization, there was this guy who also had Crohns, and we talked. When I brought my cases and antibiotics, he remembered his GI first time he was diagnosed asking him if the symptoms started after antibiotics.


----------



## Ihurt

Do you remember what antibiotics brought your crohn's on? I mean it is possible that the antibiotics caused it. Was it is the first time you ever took that antibiotic in your life? I mean that is what I hate about doctors who prescribe antibiotics, they NEVER tell their patients to take probiotics while taking them and they should! I have had soo many doctors say  to me that antibiotics do not cause crohns. I always ask them what causes it then and that is when they clam up and have nothing to say! They have no clue what causes it so I don't see how they can say whether one thing does or does not cause crohns. 









Tired said:


> I am convinced that my Crohn's started because of antibiotics. I am sure of that, and nothing will convince me otherwise. Not only this, but both times I was hospitalized for severe flareups, they were caused because of antibiotics.
> 
> During my first hospitalization, there was this guy who also had Crohns, and we talked. When I brought my cases and antibiotics, he remembered his GI first time he was diagnosed asking him if the symptoms started after antibiotics.


----------



## Tired

The antibiotic was tetracycline, and it was not the first time I took it. I think that my immune system was modulated at that time and the antibiotic did something. Flagyl also send me to hospital twice for a severe flare and probiotics didn't do a thing.



Ihurt said:


> Do you remember what antibiotics brought your crohn's on? I mean it is possible that the antibiotics caused it. Was it is the first time you ever took that antibiotic in your life? I mean that is what I hate about doctors who prescribe antibiotics, they NEVER tell their patients to take probiotics while taking them and they should! I have had soo many doctors say  to me that antibiotics do not cause crohns. I always ask them what causes it then and that is when they clam up and have nothing to say! They have no clue what causes it so I don't see how they can say whether one thing does or does not cause crohns.


----------



## UnXmas

Ihurt said:


> Do you remember what antibiotics brought your crohn's on? I mean it is possible that the antibiotics caused it. Was it is the first time you ever took that antibiotic in your life? I mean that is what I hate about doctors who prescribe antibiotics, they NEVER tell their patients to take probiotics while taking them and they should! I have had soo many doctors say  to me that antibiotics do not cause crohns. I always ask them what causes it then and that is when they clam up and have nothing to say! They have no clue what causes it so I don't see how they can say whether one thing does or does not cause crohns.


There isn't any definite proof of what causes Crohn's. What would you expect a doctor to say? Why should they say that antibiotics cause Crohn's when there's no conclusive evidence that they do? There are several possible causes of Crohn's, and an apparent genetic component, but since the cause(s) isn't known, any honest doctor _should_ be saying that they don't know the cause.

They have to weigh up benefits and risks. If antibiotics can stop possibly dangerous, sometimes even life-threatening, infections, would you expect a doctor to not offer them to a patient on the basis that there may possibly be a risk of developing Crohn's, even though many many people take antibiotics and never get Crohn's, and even though there is no proof that antibiotics have ever caused Crohn's at all? With any medication that has risks, side effects, or unknown possible risks, a doctor has to weigh up the positives and negatives. Sometimes they'll get this wrong, sometimes a patient will get unexpected negative results. But with the evidence currently available, I don't see how a doctor could weigh up the benefits of antibiotics and the possible risk that they might cause Crohn's and be correct in concluding that it's better _not_ to give patients antibiotics.


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## Ihurt

Unxmas: I agree, you are right, I do not think doctors should stop prescribing antibiotics, they save lots of lives after all. I mean they are the only thing that calms my bladder issues. I just think doctors should recommend their patients take probiotics while handing out scripts for antibiotics. Hardly any doctor will do this. I have had only a couple doctors mention probiotics to me when they gave me antibiotics. I mean it could save a person a lot of misery! I am not saying that they will work for everyone or everything either, I mean but it is worth trying in my opinion. I know I have been taking probiotics for a long time and I know I would be WAY worse without them.  

And yes, you are right, doctors usually do say they have no clue what causes crohns, which is why they really cannot say antibiotics do not cause it. I went through the same thing with my IC bladder. I had a few urologists try an argue that IC was not caused by a bacteria 100%. I can say my IC is caused by a bacteria because I respond positively when taking antibiotics, it helps my bladder A lot. This goes for a lot of other women out there who have IC. I mean don't get me wrong, I understand that a doctor should admit when he or she does not know something, that is the right thing to do. Unfortunately a lot of doctors will not do this, they will blame your illness on anything rather than admit they just don't know. This happens a lot, it is terrible. I cannot tell you how many times I was faced with a doctor telling me my illness was in my head or caused by stress!! Hmm, funny, I was perfectly Happy, and healthy before I got sick so, not so. So when I saw the Urologist who said No IC is not caused by bacteria, well he is wrong to say this. They have NO clue what causes IC so to say this he would have to have an answer to what does cause it then in my opinion. You cannot say something does or does not cause a disease until you know for certainty what the cause of the disease actually is.


----------



## UnXmas

Ok, I think I misunderstood you - you mean that since they haven't yet ruled out antibiotics as a cause of Crohn's, doctors should warn you that it's a possible risk when they prescribe them, rather than saying (because there's no conclusive evidence of a antibiotic/Crohn's link) that antibiotics don't cause Crohn's? 

I've had doctors tell me wrong things about causes too - stress seems to come up as a cause an awful lot! I think the difference is when we (patients) can be absolutely certain that something is or isn't the cause. E.g. we know when our illness doesn't correlate with stress, so for a doctor to tell us otherwise is unacceptable.  But I know that sometimes I've been convinced something is triggering symptoms (not necessarily the cause, but making them worse) then later I've found I've been completely wrong.

But the problem with the antibiotic/Crohn's relationship is that could equably be true for possibly thousands of other conditions - any condition where the causes aren't certain. A doctor can't really prescribe antibiotics along with a warning that they could potentially cause thousands of illnesses. But if specifically asked if antibiotics cause Crohn's, they should answer that they don't know rather than saying "no"?

One of the best doctors I ever saw was a neurologist who told me he had no idea what was wrong with and that he was sending me to a worldwide specialist in London.  He had no problems admitting he didn't know!


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## wildbill_52280

Tired said:


> The antibiotic was tetracycline, and it was not the first time I took it. I think that my immune system was modulated at that time and the antibiotic did something. Flagyl also send me to hospital twice for a severe flare and probiotics didn't do a thing.


Here is a study that linked tetracycline antibiotics to increased risk of development of acne. specifically doxycycline, which i have taken 3 course totaling about 6 months total time on these from about 2000-2006, then a course of amoxicillin in 2008 where crohn's then emerged.

http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v105/n12/abs/ajg2010303a.html


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## Ihurt

I guess it all depends on the person and how their body reacts. Some think that when you ingest certain antibiotics that they kill off certain bacteria and leave some potentially bad ones to grow out of control. Now in some people nothing will happen. But then in others I think maybe the immune system looks at the bacteria as a foreign invader and just goes crazy and attacks. I mean this is just a theory. It is kind of like when you get the Flu or a cold, the virus itself is not really hurting you at all, it is your bodies reaction to the flu that is hurting you. I am thinking some of us have more aggressive immune systems and that something goes haywire and the immune system does not know how to shut off and just starts attacking blindly even in harmless situations. I mean it may even be a brain disease if you look at it this way. The mind controls everything. What if the brain gets a glitch or something just goes wrong and that control mechanism gets disrupted? So now you brain is telling your gut something is wrong and sends up the red flag and send in  the fighters, but just keeps sending in the fighters and does not stop. So when the fighters get there and there is nothing really there to fight, it just starts attacking the organ itself looking at it as if it is an invader due to the brain not shutting that fight mechanism off. I mean Gosh there are just so many theories out there. Then you have the people who have Crohns that have Never taken antibiotics at all. How do you explain that? It is just so complex....









wildbill_52280 said:


> Here is a study that linked tetracycline antibiotics to increased risk of development of acne. specifically doxycycline, which i have taken 3 course totaling about 6 months total time on these from about 2000-2006, then a course of amoxicillin in 2008 where crohn's then emerged.
> 
> http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v105/n12/abs/ajg2010303a.html


----------



## Beach

Not Crohns, but another GI condition.  Saw this mention on another sight about an observational study finding an association between the development of Celiac disease and antibiotic use.  

"Study: Celiac disease associated with prior antibiotic use"

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18531



> This is the first study to find a positive association between antibiotic use and subsequent CD.
> Antibiotic exposure was also linked to small-intestinal inflammation and to normal mucosa
> with positive CD serology, both of which may represent early CD. The consistent association
> between the multiple groups, the slightly stronger association between repeated use of
> antibiotics compared with no use as well as the association with use of certain antibiotics
> (e.g., metronidazole) and CD may suggest that antibiotic exposure, possibly through a
> changed gut microbiota, plays a pathogenic role in early CD development. However, given
> the lack of time-response effect, within the limited time window studied, we cannot rule out
> non-causal explanations for our findings.


----------



## wildbill_52280

Ihurt said:


> I guess it all depends on the person and how their body reacts. Some think that when you ingest certain antibiotics that they kill off certain bacteria and leave some potentially bad ones to grow out of control. Now in some people nothing will happen. But then in others I think maybe the immune system looks at the bacteria as a foreign invader and just goes crazy and attacks. I mean this is just a theory. It is kind of like when you get the Flu or a cold, the virus itself is not really hurting you at all, it is your bodies reaction to the flu that is hurting you. I am thinking some of us have more aggressive immune systems and that something goes haywire and the immune system does not know how to shut off and just starts attacking blindly even in harmless situations. I mean it may even be a brain disease if you look at it this way. The mind controls everything. What if the brain gets a glitch or something just goes wrong and that control mechanism gets disrupted? So now you brain is telling your gut something is wrong and sends up the red flag and send in  the fighters, but just keeps sending in the fighters and does not stop. So when the fighters get there and there is nothing really there to fight, it just starts attacking the organ itself looking at it as if it is an invader due to the brain not shutting that fight mechanism off. I mean Gosh there are just so many theories out there. Then you have the people who have Crohns that have Never taken antibiotics at all. How do you explain that? It is just so complex....


the amount of fiber in your diet and also vitamin d levels come into play.and possibly now some new factors like sucralose and sacharrin which destroy intestinal bacteria in large amounts. those are all the main variables. those will likely explain why other people dont get crohn's when on antibiotics or do get crohn's when not on antibiotics.


----------



## LNS87

I found this post interesting!  So I ended up with C-diff after taking Augmentin for a Sinus infection.  The c-diff took many cycles of Vancomycin to finally clear up, but my stomach never went back to normal.  After 4 years of the docs saying it was just IBS, I switched to a new GI who did another scope and found the UC.  She was the first one who told me that I may have had UC that was lying dormant and the c-diff triggered it to flare (being that people with IBD are more prone to c-diff), or vise versa - what we had thought beforehand which was that the c-diff caused prolonged inflammation leading to the UC.  I will never know the answer to which came first - much like the chicken or the egg question, but I am glad to see I am not the only one who ran into this situation!


----------



## Ihurt

Wow, that is terrible. I have been on low dose augmentin for 8 months now to prevent UTI's I get. I hate being on this stuff. I also have to take Lots and lots of probiotics as well. Just out of curiosity, were you taking probiotics while you were on the augmentin? I know C-diff can cuase the whole intestines to swell up and inflame. I mean put it this way, if you had a completely healthy gut before the augmentin, then I would say it was definitely the C-diff that caused the UC. That  is a big worry of mine, getting C-diff from being on the antibiotics for so long. I mean I am taking lots of probiotics though like over 100 billion counts a day as well as taking florastor and culturelle( these two are known to help prevent C-diff.) I am sorry you went through all this.









LNS87 said:


> I found this post interesting!  So I ended up with C-diff after taking Augmentin for a Sinus infection.  The c-diff took many cycles of Vancomycin to finally clear up, but my stomach never went back to normal.  After 4 years of the docs saying it was just IBS, I switched to a new GI who did another scope and found the UC.  She was the first one who told me that I may have had UC that was lying dormant and the c-diff triggered it to flare (being that people with IBD are more prone to c-diff), or vise versa - what we had thought beforehand which was that the c-diff caused prolonged inflammation leading to the UC.  I will never know the answer to which came first - much like the chicken or the egg question, but I am glad to see I am not the only one who ran into this situation!


----------



## wildbill_52280

LNS87 said:


> I found this post interesting!  So I ended up with C-diff after taking Augmentin for a Sinus infection.  The c-diff took many cycles of Vancomycin to finally clear up, but my stomach never went back to normal.  After 4 years of the docs saying it was just IBS, I switched to a new GI who did another scope and found the UC.  She was the first one who told me that I may have had UC that was lying dormant and the c-diff triggered it to flare (being that people with IBD are more prone to c-diff), or vise versa - what we had thought beforehand which was that the c-diff caused prolonged inflammation leading to the UC.  I will never know the answer to which came first - much like the chicken or the egg question, but I am glad to see I am not the only one who ran into this situation!




Augmentin is Amoxicillin-clavulanic acid, thats what gave me crohns. when i took it i got over my bronchitis after a week or so and felt better, then by the second week i felt much worse, hair started falliing out, i felt insane. then had to quit my job after 4 months after. slowly ibd emerged until being diagnosed a year later. never felt the same since.

to me their is hardly any difference between c diff and IBD, its all chronic diarrhea that is somewhat life threatening. 

its already an accepted fact that antibiotics cause temporary colitis and temporary diarrhea. so then its not that much of a stretch to say it also causes more permanent diarrhea, like c diff and IBD. 
Well they acknowledge c diff comes after antibiotics, but that say the cause is c diff not antibiotics, conveniently protecting the pharma and medical establishment. they say c diff is the cause of c diff, and treat it with more antibiotics. and it actually may never be acknowledged that antibiotics can cause IBD, but now there is good scientific evidence.


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## Ihurt

I agree. But I gotta tell you, every doctor I have ever asked about there being a connection to getting IBD when taking antibiotics, they all say No! Unreal. Even when there is evidence that people Have come down with it after taking them. I remember telling my doctor that since I have been on low dose antibiotics to prevent the bad UTI's I was getting that I was scared it was really messing up my gut and that I was worried about developing Crohns. She told me, " No antibiotics cannot cause Crohns otherwise there would be tons of people walking around out there with Crohns". She then went on to say that lots of antibotics are taken by hundreds of thousands of people and they do not get Crohns from it! 

I don't know, but if that is the case then we could also say hundreds of thousands of people lay in the sun everyday and some will get skin cancer but a lot of people wont! But they still know that being in the sun can and DOES cause skin cancer in some people and they will acknowledge that but they wont acknowledge that antibiotics can cause IBD and other issues. You are right, it is about protecting the Big Pharma. 

I mean look, they even treat IBD with antibiotics and other meds  which are known to be catastrophic to the gut and body as a whole. I don't get it. I sometimes wonder If they do not do this on purpose in order to keep people ill. I mean think about it, they give you meds that maybe help some people feel better, but in reality it is likely causing more damage in the long run. I seriously think they could come up with an answer to a lot of these diseases if they really wanted to. But that is just it, They Do not want to! If they did, they could not charge the insurance companies $6000 every time a person gets an infusion of humira or whatever drug they are selling out there. It is so corrupt. No, in this day and age we as citizens have to advocate for our own health and make up our own minds on what we think is best for us. That is sad. Gone are the days when doctors were out to really help the person get better.....


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## UnXmas

Ihurt said:


> I agree. But I gotta tell you, every doctor I have ever asked about there being a connection to getting IBD when taking antibiotics, they all say No! Unreal. Even when there is evidence that people Have come down with it after taking them. I remember telling my doctor that since I have been on low dose antibiotics to prevent the bad UTI's I was getting that I was scared it was really messing up my gut and that I was worried about developing Crohns. She told me, " No antibiotics cannot cause Crohns otherwise there would be tons of people walking around out there with Crohns". She then went on to say that lots of antibotics are taken by hundreds of thousands of people and they do not get Crohns from it!
> 
> I don't know, but if that is the case then we could also say hundreds of thousands of people lay in the sun everyday and some will get skin cancer but a lot of people wont! But they still know that being in the sun can and DOES cause skin cancer in some people and they will acknowledge that but they wont acknowledge that antibiotics can cause IBD and other issues. You are right, it is about protecting the Big Pharma.
> 
> I mean look, they even treat IBD with antibiotics and other meds  which are known to be catastrophic to the gut and body as a whole. I don't get it. I sometimes wonder If they do not do this on purpose in order to keep people ill. I mean think about it, they give you meds that maybe help some people feel better, but in reality it is likely causing more damage in the long run. I seriously think they could come up with an answer to a lot of these diseases if they really wanted to. But that is just it, They Do not want to! If they did, they could not charge the insurance companies $6000 every time a person gets an infusion of humira or whatever drug they are selling out there. It is so corrupt. No, in this day and age we as citizens have to advocate for our own health and make up our own minds on what we think is best for us. That is sad. Gone are the days when doctors were out to really help the person get better.....


I don't disagree with the fact that money and profits play a big role in medicine, however, you have to take into account that here in the UK Crohn's is treated much the same as in the US in terms of the drugs and surgeries available and antibiotics are also widely used. The doctors who prescribe them here do not get any extra money for doing so as far as I know. I'm sure money is heavily involved in medical research in this country, and I'm not sure whether it plays a role in determining which treatments are available, but in terms of what gets handed out to patients, the NHS is under a lot of pressure to spend as _little_ as possible.

 I do know doctors have strict budgets to work to and have to justify that the treatments they used make the most sense financially. I know when I've been sent to specialist hospitals in London rather than my local hospitals, and when I've had unconventional surgeries (my surgeon has used some very new surgical techniques on me) the doctors had to be able to prove that there was a good chance that these methods and referrals stood a good chance of benefitting my health - they had to prove they were not throwing money away on something that wouldn't make me healthier.

They don't want us sick. They want us to take as few meds as possible. The term "aging population" gets thrown around a lot because there is simply not the money needed available to cope with a growing, aging population that's getting increasingly fatter and so developing more and more long term health problems. This would seem to imply that things here should be different from the US, but for Crohn's treatments and antibiotics they don't seem to be. 

Your argument about the possibility that cures may be covered up, and medications that damage health being prescribed in order to keep people sick - can you apply it to the NHS? I'm not saying it doesn't apply, I'm genuinely asking because I really don't know, but it seems there'd be problems applying this to the UK, where antibiotics are used widely and definitely don't come with warnings that they might cause Crohn's here either.


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## Ihurt

Unxmas: Hmm, you have a point, I am not sure how things go over there in the Uk since you have universal health care, and people are not charged for meds and such like they are here. I mean here in the States you practically have to be rich anymore to afford meds and medical tests. That or you have to have very good insurance( which is also becoming a thing of the past). Insurance companies are denying payment for more and more it seems these days. I mean I cannot speak for the health care system over there, but over here it is as corrupt as it comes. Almost like the opposite of over there. Where your doctors are trained not to push expensive tests and meds, here they will fall down backwards pushing these things on people( whether it is needed or not). They also charge a ton for them as well. I mean I find it outrageous that they can charge over $6000 for an MRI. Also they can charge $6000 for ONE humira infusion. Who the hell could afford that for very long? And insurance will not pay forever. Here is the thing, most people here, even ones with the best insurance have a 1 million dollar life coverage. Meaning if your bills go over the 1 million dollar mark, they no longer cover you. This is why some( very few) doctors here are starting to be hesitant about pushing tests and such. But I will say, this is a very small number of doctors. My gastro is one who does not push tests. Also my husband just saw a doctor ( endocrinologist) and he was appalled that our family doctor had my husband go through a bone density scan at his age ( he is 34). It is not like my husband had any issues. Well unfortunately the bone density scan our doctor did showed that my husband had full blown osteopenia in his hips! This is what brought us to the endocrinologist. Well he said first off, the doctor NEVER should have even did a bone density on him. He said they do not have many reliable trials or research to compare that of a healthy young guys bones since they do not normally do bone density scans on males his age. Well due to this test showing he has such bad osteoporosis, the doctor had to redo this bone density but on a machine that was correctly calibrated to my husbands age. Well it turned out he did NOT have osteoporosis at all. It showed some slight osteopenia, but the endo doc said this was likely in the normal range to guys his age. My whole point was that this doc said this is what happens when tests are done unnecessarily. He said it costs so much money and not to mention worry and stress, and you get false results some times.

But I seriously think if the medical researchers wanted to really find a cure for these diseases, they could. Think about it, when polio first was going around and people were getting it they sat on it, did nothing. But then President Roosevelt got it himself, then the medical researchers were all over that crap! In fact they developed a vaccine shortly afterwards to prevent it! Sadly, it was too late for President Roosevelt, but look how fast they came up with that vaccine!  Believe me, if the president had not come down with polio, they would not have came up with a vaccine that quick. I can guarantee you if someone Big, like the president came down with Crohns or one his kids or family members, they would be all over finding a cause and a cure! There would be tons of money put into researching for a cause and a cure. Some say they even have a cure for AIDS now, but they are not letting it out to everyone. Even cancer. Think about it, they do not want to put out cures. If they did, all the hospitals and Big pharma would go out of business. Even over there in the UK I am sure.

I mean I could be way off here, but with how everything is going and all the corruption out there, nothing would surprise me. Even when my own mom was dying of cancer, I mean they told her she had 4th stage cancer. In other words, she was dying. The doctor there however did not tell us she had fourth stage until AFTER they had her go through many many expensive tests. After all that money and all those tests the doctor says to us " well, we could not really find it, but it did not really make too much difference because it is terminal anyhow. I cannot tell you how upset we all were and disgusted. The doctor even argued with my mom saying she HAD to get Chemo started right away! My mom said No, The Doctor told my mom she had to,  that it would prolong her life possibly by 6  to 9 months!!!! Yeah, 9 months of complete agony and not to mention the $$$$ they would charge. My mom walked out while the doctor was still talking. I mean they did not want to take no for an answer. IT was ALL about the money, I mean anyone could see that. I guess after that and after seeing all I have been through with doctors and stuff, it kind of opens your eyes to things. At least over here. I mean I will say that at least over there in the UK they have it right by having free health care. It should be free everywhere really. That will NEVER happen here. To much big Greedy Cooperates here.


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## wildbill_52280

Ihurt said:


> Unxmas: Hmm, you have a point, I am not sure how things go over there in the Uk since you have universal health care, and people are not charged for meds and such like they are here. I mean here in the States you practically have to be rich anymore to afford meds and medical tests. That or you have to have very good insurance( which is also becoming a thing of the past). Insurance companies are denying payment for more and more it seems these days. I mean I cannot speak for the health care system over there, but over here it is as corrupt as it comes. Almost like the opposite of over there. Where your doctors are trained not to push expensive tests and meds, here they will fall down backwards pushing these things on people( whether it is needed or not). They also charge a ton for them as well. I mean I find it outrageous that they can charge over $6000 for an MRI. Also they can charge $6000 for ONE humira infusion. Who the hell could afford that for very long? And insurance will not pay forever. Here is the thing, most people here, even ones with the best insurance have a 1 million dollar life coverage. Meaning if your bills go over the 1 million dollar mark, they no longer cover you. This is why some( very few) doctors here are starting to be hesitant about pushing tests and such. But I will say, this is a very small number of doctors. My gastro is one who does not push tests. Also my husband just saw a doctor ( endocrinologist) and he was appalled that our family doctor had my husband go through a bone density scan at his age ( he is 34). It is not like my husband had any issues. Well unfortunately the bone density scan our doctor did showed that my husband had full blown osteopenia in his hips! This is what brought us to the endocrinologist. Well he said first off, the doctor NEVER should have even did a bone density on him. He said they do not have many reliable trials or research to compare that of a healthy young guys bones since they do not normally do bone density scans on males his age. Well due to this test showing he has such bad osteoporosis, the doctor had to redo this bone density but on a machine that was correctly calibrated to my husbands age. Well it turned out he did NOT have osteoporosis at all. It showed some slight osteopenia, but the endo doc said this was likely in the normal range to guys his age. My whole point was that this doc said this is what happens when tests are done unnecessarily. He said it costs so much money and not to mention worry and stress, and you get false results some times.
> 
> But I seriously think if the medical researchers wanted to really find a cure for these diseases, they could. Think about it, when polio first was going around and people were getting it they sat on it, did nothing. But then President Roosevelt got it himself, then the medical researchers were all over that crap! In fact they developed a vaccine shortly afterwards to prevent it! Sadly, it was too late for President Roosevelt, but look how fast they came up with that vaccine!  Believe me, if the president had not come down with polio, they would not have came up with a vaccine that quick. I can guarantee you if someone Big, like the president came down with Crohns or one his kids or family members, they would be all over finding a cause and a cure! There would be tons of money put into researching for a cause and a cure. Some say they even have a cure for AIDS now, but they are not letting it out to everyone. Even cancer. Think about it, they do not want to put out cures. If they did, all the hospitals and Big pharma would go out of business. Even over there in the UK I am sure.
> 
> I mean I could be way off here, but with how everything is going and all the corruption out there, nothing would surprise me. Even when my own mom was dying of cancer, I mean they told her she had 4th stage cancer. In other words, she was dying. The doctor there however did not tell us she had fourth stage until AFTER they had her go through many many expensive tests. After all that money and all those tests the doctor says to us " well, we could not really find it, but it did not really make too much difference because it is terminal anyhow. I cannot tell you how upset we all were and disgusted. The doctor even argued with my mom saying she HAD to get Chemo started right away! My mom said No, The Doctor told my mom she had to,  that it would prolong her life possibly by 6  to 9 months!!!! Yeah, 9 months of complete agony and not to mention the $$$$ they would charge. My mom walked out while the doctor was still talking. I mean they did not want to take no for an answer. IT was ALL about the money, I mean anyone could see that. I guess after that and after seeing all I have been through with doctors and stuff, it kind of opens your eyes to things. At least over here. I mean I will say that at least over there in the UK they have it right by having free health care. It should be free everywhere really. That will NEVER happen here. To much big Greedy Cooperates here.



so how is your mom now? and how long ago was that? did she die 6-9 months later? or within that month? 

i would agree with the doctors that some intervention to affect the disease progress was needed at that time, but i wonder if dietary and other improvements might just as well be enough? instead of the drugs or radiation.


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## Ihurt

WillBill: This was 10 years ago. My mom died. She was diagnosed with the secondary liver cancer in March of 2002, and she died August 13th of 2002. My mom was already chronically sick a big part of her life so there was no way my mom would ever have subjected herself to doing Chemo. We were very upset for the reason that they knew my mom had fourth stage cancer which was terminal but neglected to tell us right away. They told us AFTER they had her to go through all these tests saying they needed to find out where the cancer originated from. I mean it was rather disgusting because after all those tests( not to mention the false hope they were giving us) the doctors says to us that well, we were not able to find where the cancer started( their guess was her lungs), but either way it does not matter really since there is no hope, it is 4th stage and terminal! It was like being hit with a boulder. My dad was devastated and asked the doctor right out in  the open WHY he did not tell us this before he had my mom going through all these painful uncomfortable tests???? The doctor sat there and said nothing. 

As far as intervention, there was No intervention needed at all. All they had to do was tell the truth and leave the choices up to my mom. They did not. They lied! They held back info about my moms condition ( that it was terminal) until AFTER she did all those tests. Then they had a nerve to try and push Chemo on her telling her it would prolong her life by 6 months and maybe even 9 months. Any way you look at it, she was dying. Chemo may have prolonged her life ( which I doubt) but it definitely would have made her sicker than a dog as well. We even asked told the doctor this and do you know his answer was?? HE said, well so what, at least you would still be here!!  I mean it was definitely all about making money off my poor dying mom. Disgusting. This was I gotta say my first eye opener about the western medical corporation and how horrible it can be. My mom went home and enrolled in Hospice where they come to your home when you need them. So my mom had like maybe 3 months where she was ok and then she went downhill pretty fast after that. Even the hospice doctor said had she did the chemo, that alone would likely have killed her. She made the right choice.


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## wildbill_52280

Ihurt said:


> WillBill: This was 10 years ago. My mom died. She was diagnosed with the secondary liver cancer in March of 2002, and she died August 13th of 2002. My mom was already chronically sick a big part of her life so there was no way my mom would ever have subjected herself to doing Chemo. We were very upset for the reason that they knew my mom had fourth stage cancer which was terminal but neglected to tell us right away. They told us AFTER they had her to go through all these tests saying they needed to find out where the cancer originated from. I mean it was rather disgusting because after all those tests( not to mention the false hope they were giving us) the doctors says to us that well, we were not able to find where the cancer started( their guess was her lungs), but either way it does not matter really since there is no hope, it is 4th stage and terminal! It was like being hit with a boulder. My dad was devastated and asked the doctor right out in  the open WHY he did not tell us this before he had my mom going through all these painful uncomfortable tests???? The doctor sat there and said nothing.
> 
> As far as intervention, there was No intervention needed at all. All they had to do was tell the truth and leave the choices up to my mom. They did not. They lied! They held back info about my moms condition ( that it was terminal) until AFTER she did all those tests. Then they had a nerve to try and push Chemo on her telling her it would prolong her life by 6 months and maybe even 9 months. Any way you look at it, she was dying. Chemo may have prolonged her life ( which I doubt) but it definitely would have made her sicker than a dog as well. We even asked told the doctor this and do you know his answer was?? HE said, well so what, at least you would still be here!!  I mean it was definitely all about making money off my poor dying mom. Disgusting. This was I gotta say my first eye opener about the western medical corporation and how horrible it can be. My mom went home and enrolled in Hospice where they come to your home when you need them. So my mom had like maybe 3 months where she was ok and then she went downhill pretty fast after that. Even the hospice doctor said had she did the chemo, that alone would likely have killed her. She made the right choice.


sorry to hear about your mom and her experiance.
if they were to have found the origination of the cancer from where it was  metastasizing, they could have considered surgery, and that may have truly prolonged her life maybe even saved her. So the doctors decisions, while probably not perfect from the patients perspective, seemed fairly sound. however, depending on her condition, you are probably right about the chemo/radiation, it can take a toll and she may have been better off avoiding that. i have witnessed my uncle during lung cancer metastasizing to brain cancer, he seemed perfectly fine before chemo/radiation, then after treatments, quickly declined. supposedly the doctor gave him extra radiation treatment directly to his brain, as the doctor believed he was "so far gone" that he would up the dose to "help more". and that was it for him, now after zapping his brain with so much radiation, his entire body stopped working correctly, it appeared to me, that, the doctor had killed him, he was functional before the chemo and radiation, i believed had he simply quit smoking, reduced his stress, eat a super healthy diet, he would still be here today.

in another related story my mom was diagnosed with stage 4 cervical cancer and she decided to simply change her diet, that was 17 years ago, no chemo radiation doctors,  nothing. she is still living a healthy life.


I'm not sure doctors ever really know whether someone is going to die from cancer with absolute certainty, even if they say so, but the probability is very high, they can at least be right about assessing probability. at the time of diagnosis, if they find something and the patient just continues on the same path of dietary habits sleep habits and stress levels, you can be sure they will die if some sort of change isnt made at diagnosis ,whether it be surgery radiation chemo, or even diet, sleep exercise, and stress reduction.


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## Ihurt

Willbill: Wow, I am sorry for what your Uncle went through and your mom! Thankfully your mom is still with you, that is great. I am so glad she was able to beat the cervical cancer without doing all the chemo and stuff. 

That is why my mom declined the chemo as well. I mean my mom was by no means a robust healthy person before being diagnosed. She had health issues ( she had High blood pressure, Mienetriers disease which is a rare disease of the stomach, She also had bowel issues, they called it Mucus colitis which is what they call IBS now). There was no way my mom would have survived the effects of chemo. I am certain it would have made her gravely sick. They said she had multiple lesions all throughout her liver so in my opinion I think Chemo would have just killed her faster. At least she had a couple ok months with us on the hospice. 

That is awesome that your mom was able to reverse the cervical cancer with diet and all. I mean you are 100% right, no doctor can really predict when a person is going to die. I mean my dads best friend was told he was suppose to be dead 25 years ago that he would never survive another 5 years at that time from his bad heart. It is crazy but the doctors that told him this are all dead now, but he is still alive! Go figure....


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## Tracey1788

wildbill_52280 said:


> Augmentin is Amoxicillin-clavulanic acid, thats what gave me crohns. when i took it i got over my bronchitis after a week or so and felt better, then by the second week i felt much worse, hair started falliing out, i felt insane. then had to quit my job after 4 months after. slowly ibd emerged until being diagnosed a year later. never felt the same since.
> 
> to me their is hardly any difference between c diff and IBD, its all chronic diarrhea that is somewhat life threatening.
> 
> its already an accepted fact that antibiotics cause temporary colitis and temporary diarrhea. so then its not that much of a stretch to say it also causes more permanent diarrhea, like c diff and IBD.
> Well they acknowledge c diff comes after antibiotics, but that say the cause is c diff not antibiotics, conveniently protecting the pharma and medical establishment. they say c diff is the cause of c diff, and treat it with more antibiotics. and it actually may never be acknowledged that antibiotics can cause IBD, but now there is good scientific evidence.


I was also on Augmentin for Breast sepsis. This was one of the many antibiotics I was on for several weeks. two weeks after stopping these pills is when my tummy troubles started and 2 weeks later ended up in casualty. Incidently I would avoid eating whilst at work because the pills would cause me to have very loose stools.


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## wildbill_52280

someone in this thread stated that when they told their doctor they were convined the antibiotics brought on their IBD, the doctor responded, "if antibiotics caused IBD, then how do you explain all the people that have taken it in the past, that DO NOT develop IBD?",  his asserted conclusion of these observations being  therefore this observation "proves beyond all doubt", that antibiotics cannot cause IBD!!!

then i would say in response, if antibiotics can never cause IBD, then all clouds NEVER cause Rain!!! obviously there some beautiful summer days we have that have plenty of clouds yet, NO RAIN!!!  obviously this doctors horribly developed argument is based on a super simplistic idea of cause and effect relationships, and of the general nature of the universe. there are more variables to the nature of clouds that can produce rain, just as their are more variables involved for antibiotics to cause IBD. 

So, the fact that there are people that have taken antibiotics and never develop IBD, does not mean antibiotics never cause IBD. look at all the clouds that never cause rain, we could then also say, therefore, clouds do not cause rain. no, that's not true. Clouds definitely are somehow involved in causing rain. 

And i also believe that somehow antibiotics are definitely involved in causing some cases of IBD.


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## Ihurt

Very Good Point indeed! It stands that doctors really have No clue what causes crohns so therefore they cannot say with certainity what "does not" cause it....











wildbill_52280 said:


> someone in this thread stated that when they told their doctor they were convined the antibiotics brought on their IBD, the doctor responded, "if antibiotics caused IBD, then how do you explain all the people that have taken it in the past, that DO NOT develop IBD?",  his asserted conclusion of these observations being  therefore this observation "proves beyond all doubt", that antibiotics cannot cause IBD!!!
> 
> then i would say in response, if antibiotics can never cause IBD, then all clouds NEVER cause Rain!!! obviously there some beautiful summer days we have that have plenty of clouds yet, NO RAIN!!!  obviously this doctors horribly developed argument is based on a super simplistic idea of cause and effect relationships, and of the general nature of the universe. there are more variables to the nature of clouds that can produce rain, just as their are more variables involved for antibiotics to cause IBD.
> 
> So, the fact that there are people that have taken antibiotics and never develop IBD, does not mean antibiotics never cause IBD. look at all the clouds that never cause rain, we could then also say, therefore, clouds do not cause rain. no, that's not true. Clouds definitely are somehow involved in causing rain.


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## taya92

Sorry to bump this up but I'd just like to add that I'm another who has taken antibiotics and ended up with massive weight loss and malabsorption, a stomach ulcer , numerous food allergies and so on. I've still not been diagnosed but I was on antibiotics for several years as a child and what pushed me over the edge was a course of tetracycline for just a month.

My doctor is actually very open minded to the fact that antibiotics put me where I am , he mentioned he'd seen a few others in similar situations.  What they have actually specifically done is the question.

I had comprehensive digestive stool analysis which shown that I had zero growth of the lactobacillus species ( friendly bacteria ) , not a deficiency but a complete lack of any. I also had an overgrowth of streptococcus. This all points to dysbiosis and/or SIBO but I've not been officially tested for SIBO with a breath test as of yet. 

Whether or not SIBO could cause such severe malabsorption and health problems is another questions also.

In situations like ours there appears sadly to be much more questions than answers but at least we have forums such as this where we can share our advice and stories.


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## Ihurt

When you had the comprehensive stool test done, was it done by a naturopathic doctor? I had one done about 2 and half years ago by a lab called metometrix. At the time I did not have any gut issues to much per say though, just other health issues. My test did not show dysbiosis at the time. Well about almost 2 years ago I started having bad intestinal pain and issues. I have been sick for 2 years now with having constant intestinal pains. Interestingly, I have had to be on low dose antibiotics for years now to control another condition I have( Interstitial Cystitis of the bladder) which causes me to get bad UTI's. I am pretty sure that the low dose antibiotics have caused ALL my gut issues. But I have no choice really at this point. I would rather take the low dose antibiotic than have to take frequent courses of high doses when I get a UTI. 

Do you take probiotics? I take High doses of probiotics that includes acidophilus and many other beneficial bacteria. I kind of want to get my stool tested again to see where I am at but I know that western med doctors do not do this kind of testing( why I do not know), you think they would! I would go back to the naturopathic doc who did it the first time but my insurance will not cover...









taya92 said:


> Sorry to bump this up but I'd just like to add that I'm another who has taken antibiotics and ended up with massive weight loss and malabsorption, a stomach ulcer , numerous food allergies and so on. I've still not been diagnosed but I was on antibiotics for several years as a child and what pushed me over the edge was a course of tetracycline for just a month.
> 
> My doctor is actually very open minded to the fact that antibiotics put me where I am , he mentioned he'd seen a few others in similar situations.  What they have actually specifically done is the question.
> 
> I had comprehensive digestive stool analysis which shown that I had zero growth of the lactobacillus species ( friendly bacteria ) , not a deficiency but a complete lack of any. I also had an overgrowth of streptococcus. This all points to dysbiosis and/or SIBO but I've not been officially tested for SIBO with a breath test as of yet.
> 
> Whether or not SIBO could cause such severe malabsorption and health problems is another questions also.
> 
> In situations like ours there appears sadly to be much more questions than answers but at least we have forums such as this where we can share our advice and stories.


----------



## taya92

Ihurt said:


> When you had the comprehensive stool test done, was it done by a naturopathic doctor? I had one done about 2 and half years ago by a lab called metometrix. At the time I did not have any gut issues to much per say though, just other health issues. My test did not show dysbiosis at the time. Well about almost 2 years ago I started having bad intestinal pain and issues. I have been sick for 2 years now with having constant intestinal pains. Interestingly, I have had to be on low dose antibiotics for years now to control another condition I have( Interstitial Cystitis of the bladder) which causes me to get bad UTI's. I am pretty sure that the low dose antibiotics have caused ALL my gut issues. But I have no choice really at this point. I would rather take the low dose antibiotic than have to take frequent courses of high doses when I get a UTI.
> 
> Do you take probiotics? I take High doses of probiotics that includes acidophilus and many other beneficial bacteria. I kind of want to get my stool tested again to see where I am at but I know that western med doctors do not do this kind of testing( why I do not know), you think they would! I would go back to the naturopathic doc who did it the first time but my insurance will not cover...



I had my stool sample performed by Genova diagnostics and the results interpreted by a Dr.Myhill. She's definitely very knowledgeable but in comparison to your everyday doctor quite out there and many specialists and doctors I've shown her recommendations think it's a bit much. 

Off of my results she basically recommended I start a zero carb diet and take high dose vitamin C along with kefir and take transdermal supplements through the skin. 

I don't agree with zero carb diets and find I definitely feel better eating safe carbohydrates such as sweet potato , some gluten free grains and so on.

Dr.Myhill has a whole page here on gut fermentation caused by bacteria and the symptoms it can bring on you may find interesting. If you were interested you can actually order stool samples and for their results to be interpreted from her site and they send the stuff out to you. 

http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Fermentation_in_the_gut_and_CFS

Here is her page on Crohns Disease and Ulcerative Colitis.

http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Crohn%27s_disease_and_ulcerative_colitis_-_inflammatory_bowel_disease_responds_well_to_the_environmental_approach

The whole idea of gut fermentation and dysbiosis commonly ties into the much more recognized Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.  

Probiotics in my particular case tend to actually make me feel much worse but this can be a common occurrence with SIBO and dysbiosis.

If I was in your particular situation I'd maybe try my best to come off of the antibiotics but if you find they're as helpful as they seem to be for your Cystitis it may not be wise, maybe discussing with your doctor and researching some alternate treatment and trying it out would be a possibility.  I was on antibiotics for 2 years straight for a prostate problem as a child ( which was an absolute nightmare to get diagnosed ) but managed to come off of them by changing my diet and lifestyle since I no longer liked the idea of being dependent on them. I'm just glad I came off them when I did.

I took the single course of tetracycline for acne that ironically developed after the 2 year course of other antibiotics and even more ironically 80% of the acne cleared when I changed my diet after all of the antibiotics. 

The same sadly can't be said for my digestion and absorption though, something has altered there that just doesn't want to go back. 

Many people blame candida after antibiotics if they develop health problems and whilst this is possible I think it's blown massively out of proportion and it's usually an overabundance or imbalance of bacteria that is causing problems.


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## tsb2000

I'm pretty convinced antibiotics are how I got it. I had a scrip for Augmentin for an infection unrelated to anything in my gut in January. Two days later, I was in the bathroom non-stop. I took the meds for another day, then had to stop because the pain was unbearable. Had a CT scan (Feb), then a colonoscopy (Apr), then a small bowel study two weeks later. I got the dx toward the end of April with a giant bottle of Apriso. 


...and here I am. :stinks:


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## taya92

For everyone here struggling with diarrhea and or bloating after antibiotics or any of the symptoms listed under this link please be tested for SIBO. I'm sure there are many discussions regarding this on this forum but it's one of the digestive problem which can be caused by antibiotics and if you're displaying the typical symptoms it's worth a look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_intestinal_bacterial_overgrowth

My digestive problems have arose after antibiotics although I don't display any of the typical symptoms of SIBO so my situation may be more complicated. I've still yet to be tested though.


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## Ihurt

Taya92,

Thanks for that info, I really appreciate. I am going to look into getting my stool checked again for the flora counts. I really would be interested to see if all the heavy duty probiotics are actually working. 

I would love to come off these antibiotics, but I am scared. I don't want to get another UTI where I will have to be on high dose antibiotics, that would kill me I am sure. I have tried many alternative things to stop the UTI's( I did this before I ever gave in and started taking these low dose antibiotics). Nothing would work. I just got worse and worse with my  bladder, it was a nightmare. Believe me, I am so Anti-drug that for me to cave in an take the antibiotics, I was desperate. I was suicidal at the time the pain from the constant UTI was so bad. I am on a diet that is basically very very low carb. I eat sweet potatoes though like you do.  I also have been Gluten Free for over 6 years now too. My diet it pretty healthy-bland. I also try and eat as organic as possible too. 

I hope they can figure out what is causing the absorption issues you are having. 

Thanks again for the links...


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## ce1210

I definitely think my crohn's is antibiotic related...growing up I had a lot of sinus and ear infections as I had terrible allergies and live in an area with awful air quality. I was often on antibiotics for sinus infections. Well a little over a year ago, after going 3 years w/o health insurance in the good ol US of A, I saw an ENT because I had a sinus infection that wasn't going away with amoxicillin. So he prescribed me a series of 6 different antibiotics over a 5 month period to get the infection out so he could do surgery to remove tonsils and fix nose/sinuses. After the surgery, I wason more antibiotics for 2 weeks to prevent post surgical infection. After this when I started eating again, I was having terrible acid reflux, I have always had it to some degree, but it was terrible. I was taking 3 Prilosec a day and eating tums left and right with no relief. Also started having really bad back neck and hip pains through last summer after the surgery. Reflux worsened until last winter I had a few episodes of throwing up blood. Then this spring, chronic mucous filled D joined in with the reflux and back pain. After 2 months of that and losing 35 pounds I finally saw a GI who prescribed me to more Prilosec. When I asked him if antibiotics could have caused my problems he brushed off the question. He also says probiotics are a waste of money and I have experimented on myself with them and I know they work. Doctors seem to be extremely defensive of antibiotics which I guess makes sense as they get paid to prescribe them and they are often hailed as a drug that "changed humanity".....


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## Ihurt

Yep, most doctors do not push probitoics. Though I have seen 2 Gastro doctors who have( including the one I see now). Even my primary care doctor recommends them to her patients. Sadly, doctors do not like to recommend probiotics because they are not FDA approved( which means nothing really!). I do not trust the FDA at all, hell, they approve things that actually caused death to people during trials!! Enough said there.

How long after you had taken the antibiotics did you come down with crohns symptoms?














ce1210 said:


> I definitely think my crohn's is antibiotic related...growing up I had a lot of sinus and ear infections as I had terrible allergies and live in an area with awful air quality. I was often on antibiotics for sinus infections. Well a little over a year ago, after going 3 years w/o health insurance in the good ol US of A, I saw an ENT because I had a sinus infection that wasn't going away with amoxicillin. So he prescribed me a series of 6 different antibiotics over a 5 month period to get the infection out so he could do surgery to remove tonsils and fix nose/sinuses. After the surgery, I wason more antibiotics for 2 weeks to prevent post surgical infection. After this when I started eating again, I was having terrible acid reflux, I have always had it to some degree, but it was terrible. I was taking 3 Prilosec a day and eating tums left and right with no relief. Also started having really bad back neck and hip pains through last summer after the surgery. Reflux worsened until last winter I had a few episodes of throwing up blood. Then this spring, chronic mucous filled D joined in with the reflux and back pain. After 2 months of that and losing 35 pounds I finally saw a GI who prescribed me to more Prilosec. When I asked him if antibiotics could have caused my problems he brushed off the question. He also says probiotics are a waste of money and I have experimented on myself with them and I know they work. Doctors seem to be extremely defensive of antibiotics which I guess makes sense as they get paid to prescribe them and they are often hailed as a drug that "changed humanity".....


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## Volcano

I had many antibiotics pumped into me as a baby. I developed asthma shortly after and around age 13 is when it ceased. Before taking accutane I did take an antibiotic for acne. The truth revealed?


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## taya92

It's ironic I posted in this thread a few days ago. I mentioned antibiotics somehow caused my ill health and since then ( around two years ago ) I've been trying to pin point what is actually going on in my body , I'm unable to gain any weight , have several food allergies , a stomach ulcer and gastritis , severe mal-absorption issues which has caused several deficiencies and so on. 

The irony is that the last few days I've had toothache steadily getting much worse and based on how I feel now I'm guessing my tooth is infected. I've got a dentist appointment on Tuesday ( which I'm going to try and get moved to tomorrow ) and I'm guessing it's likely they will want to give me antibiotics. I am terrified of antibiotics after what they seemed to do to me although I knew the day would inevitably come when I would need them again.

I may ask about alternatives if it to it , I'm thinking high dose allicin , extracted from garlic.


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## Ihurt

Whatever you do, I would Not take clindamycin. This one is one of the worst antibiotics you can take. Dentists like to give this one for some reason. It is very hard on the digestive tract and has a high risk of causing C-diff... Good Lcuk. Oh, you can ask for a special mouthwash that has antibacterial properties. That may be a suitable alternative..


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## wildbill_52280

taya92 said:


> It's ironic I posted in this thread a few days ago. I mentioned antibiotics somehow caused my ill health and since then ( around two years ago ) I've been trying to pin point what is actually going on in my body , I'm unable to gain any weight , have several food allergies , a stomach ulcer and gastritis , severe mal-absorption issues which has caused several deficiencies and so on.
> 
> The irony is that the last few days I've had toothache steadily getting much worse and based on how I feel now I'm guessing my tooth is infected. I've got a dentist appointment on Tuesday ( which I'm going to try and get moved to tomorrow ) and I'm guessing it's likely they will want to give me antibiotics. I am terrified of antibiotics after what they seemed to do to me although I knew the day would inevitably come when I would need them again.
> 
> I may ask about alternatives if it to it , I'm thinking high dose allicin , extracted from garlic.



just eat lots of fruits veggies and whole grains for fiber, good bacteria will feed on them, and antibiotics wont effect the good ones then.


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## taya92

Thanks for the advice guys. As expected I went to the dentist this morning and he said my tooth isn't infected but my gum is since a wisdom tooth is popping through !. I'm 21 and I actually thought they'd already all come through. With not much room for the wisdom tooth to come through my gum is taking the damage. 

I told him my concerns about the antibiotics given my past history with them and he asked which antibiotic it was. When I told him I was on several but tetracycline seemed to be the worst of the bunch he wrote me out a prescription for amoxicillin.

Afterwards I went to a local pharmacy who prefer natural products and asked them about the allicin , he mentioned because not much blood supply gets to the teeth he's not sure if it would be effective enough but to take 10 ( yes ten ! ) allicin capsules per day for 3 days whilst also swilling my mouth with salt water twice a day and see how I go. If the pain is still there and bothering me then I'll likely have to take the antibiotics.

I hope the allicin and salt water will work !. I'm happy to say I had a really pleasant and understanding dentist at least , wish me luck lol !.


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## wildbill_52280

taya92 said:


> Thanks for the advice guys. As expected I went to the dentist this morning and he said my tooth isn't infected but my gum is since a wisdom tooth is popping through !. I'm 21 and I actually thought they'd already all come through. With not much room for the wisdom tooth to come through my gum is taking the damage.
> 
> I told him my concerns about the antibiotics given my past history with them and he asked which antibiotic it was. When I told him I was on several but tetracycline seemed to be the worst of the bunch he wrote me out a prescription for amoxicillin.
> 
> Afterwards I went to a local pharmacy who prefer natural products and asked them about the allicin , he mentioned because not much blood supply gets to the teeth he's not sure if it would be effective enough but to take 10 ( yes ten ! ) allicin capsules per day for 3 days whilst also swilling my mouth with salt water twice a day and see how I go. If the pain is still there and bothering me then I'll likely have to take the antibiotics.
> 
> I hope the allicin and salt water will work !. I'm happy to say I had a really pleasant and understanding dentist at least , wish me luck lol !.


hey, i have had the same problems with my gums getting infected with wisdom teeth, for a temporary fix before you get them removed, rinse with baking soda and water and be careful not to chew on the the infected side, nor brush them too hard as you can push food further into the gum to get infected. also, i gently take a dulled tooth pic and scrape the inside of the gum to try and free any lodged food in the gum. 

i have done this like 4 times in the last 9 months as i do not want any dental work for another year. it takes like a week for the infection to subside, but by doing these things it always goes away. i still know i need the wisdom teeth taken out though.


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## taya92

Thanks for the advice , it's much appreciated. I hope the infection only lasts a week. So you didn't take any antibiotics then ?. That gives me some faith that my regime could work then.


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## Ihurt

You may not even be infected. When your wisdom teeth are cutting, it normally will cause pain. I know I use to get awful pain in one of mine every time it would try and cut through. I did eventually have them removed. Hopefully this will pass once it stops cutting through.


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## wildbill_52280

Ihurt said:


> You may not even be infected. When your wisdom teeth are cutting, it normally will cause pain. I know I use to get awful pain in one of mine every time it would try and cut through. I did eventually have them removed. Hopefully this will pass once it stops cutting through.


good point, may not be infected at all just coming through the gums.


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## ce1210

Ihurt said:


> Yep, most doctors do not push probitoics. Though I have seen 2 Gastro doctors who have( including the one I see now). Even my primary care doctor recommends them to her patients. Sadly, doctors do not like to recommend probiotics because they are not FDA approved( which means nothing really!). I do not trust the FDA at all, hell, they approve things that actually caused death to people during trials!! Enough said there.
> 
> How long after you had taken the antibiotics did you come down with crohns symptoms?


hey, sorry took me so long to respond, but I started having the uncontrollable acid reflux the week after stopping all the antibiotics from my sinus probs and tonsil surgery and I believe the uncontrollable reflux was the first sign of my crohn's bc from there I started having more and more abdominal issues until my crohn's diagnosis and subsequent prescription for steroids and all that.....I just finished a round of doxycycline for a skin infection and the doxy made me constipated and screwed my stomach up badly for the entire 10 days I was on it...3 days of a "probiotic blitz" after stopping the doxy and I feel much much better


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## ce1210

I'm starting to see that diet and probiotic supplementation seem to be more effective than entocort or asacol for my crohn's symptoms...for some reason, unlike most crohn's sufferers I get badly constipated if I am flaring instead of the other way around. If I'm not pooping at least 3 times a day I feel completely awful


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## Philn

Same with me...I took amoxicillin and four weeks later symptoms began. I don't know that it triggered the disease but I suspect it did.


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## Tracey1788

My health issues have gone full circle. It started with breast sepsis following a biopsy. * weeks of high does antibiotics, then crohns symptoms that stopped after a month on Pentasa. 2 weeks ago breast inflammation, more antibiotics and now tummy pains are back again. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. There has to be a link between antibiotics and Crohns


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## carrollco

2  five day doses of Azithromycin for severe bronchitis gave me the flare that has never gone away. Almost 9 years now. 

Louann Carroll
www.louanncarroll.com
Crohn's survivor and advocate
Trying the natural method that's not working so well right now. I DO NOT recommend this to anyone.


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## blackli

My crohns was diagnosed 15 years ago, but have had 2 flares in the last year that were attributed to antibiotics. I'm so afraid to get sick because I won't take the antibiotics unless absolutely necessary now. I generally get a lovely case of Pancreatitis with each flare too so will avoid antibiotics at all costs. I do find taking a daily dose of probiotics helps my pain and bloating - 50 billion is the dose I take.


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## SickLikeMe

I believe that my Crohn's was brought about by a parade of antibiotics I had to treat a prostate infection. In a month and a half space of time I was proscribed 3 different antibiotics. I believe this completely "nuked" all the good bacterial flora in my bowls and not to long afterwards I was in a docs office hearing all about IBD for the first time. I do not think this is a coincidence.


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## Ali29

My Crohn's started right after a round of antibiotics Cefdinir - turned my stools maroon by the 3rd day, which I immediatly discontinued.  D has never gone away since the antibiotics.


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## justthetruth

I was diagnosed in 1996 after having taken Biaxin an antibiotic for a sinus infection (I never had sinus trouble in my whole life).   It made me nauseas, I told my dr., he prescribed something for the nausea which didn't really help, I got a yeast infection on my tongue which I got another prescription for.  I finished the Biaxin, got rid of the sinus infection and then the yeast infection, then, within a week, I went to the emergency room , dehydrated and almost passing out from diahrrea, sent to a gastro, had the colonoscopy and diagnosed with crohns.   I would be my life on the conclusion that Biaxin, a strong antibiotic, caused me to get crohns.   I've always been a slender, athletic, active, healthy woman...I used to be...before Crohns.  Now I'm in an acupuncture/supplement program trying to heal my gut instead of taking anti-inflamitories to maintain my symptoms.


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## JohnnyRottenAppleseed

Mine started after z-pack. After doing an elimination diet and taking cipro and flagyl to combat what I believe but have no proof was C diff or unbalance of gut  bacteria, I have come back to normal. In fact, my bowel movements are better than when I was a kid when my stomach was bad from old food and questionable sanitation by my parents who have guts of steel. You need to normalize gut microbiome. Google microbiome and eat organic euro style yogurt and fermented foods and bananas after an elimination diet. Cycle supplements and diet (no extremism) be patient natural methods take months to see results as opposed to pharmaceuticals. Drink a lot of pure water daily, sleep 7-8 hours, and stress management( exercise and mediation). Don't expect quick results. You can heal your life. I'm living proof I was Fd for 5 years. Symptom free for almost three years, and antibiotic free for 3 years. Cipro flagyl will knock back bad bacterial overgrowth as will xifaxan. Good luck finding xifaxan or a doc who thinks bacteria or what you eat (GMO's) have anything to do with digestive issues. Smoking was good for you too until it was bad. The earth was flat until it was round. Wax on, wax off.

PS do not ask for antibiotics for colds and sinus infections unless you have a fever or symptoms that will not go away. Ask for specific antibiotics as opposed to broad spectrum like z pack to avoid gut problems. Yogurt and fermented foods have more probiotics than supplants except for S Boulardi. Def buy and take S Boulardi. Google elongation diet and intermittent fasting.


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