# Ketogenic diets, any risks?



## InstantCoffee

I recently stumbled upon information on Ketogenic diets, they are used to treat epilepsy and also as clean-bulk diets for body builders.

The basis for the diet is you eat a lot of meats and fat and virtually nothing that contains carbs and sugars, in a few weeks your body learns to metabolize fat as an energy source instead of sugars.

Currently this sounds very promising for me as my food intolerances basically limit me to eating white meats and dairy products as I am gluten intolerant, can't tolerate most fruits and vegetables or oils, legumes etc.

The only real issue left is that carbs and sugars make it much easier for me to make my daily calorie quota (I'd like to reasonably be as close to 2k as possible) and without them I'd have to eat a lot more meats and fats to make up for it. 

Does anyone have any knowledge of this diet as pertains to Crohn's?


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## hugh

this isn't really the right place to ask,
 -maybe check out a bodybuilders forum or a weight loss forum.

there are some risks involved, mainly if you do it wrong so 

you can just cut carbs severely but keep them above 30grams a day and it won't technically be ketogenic but you will still have weight loss (and bad breath) and become adapted to burning fat and not experiencing the four hourly sugar lows that are associated with high carb diets.

you might want to check out the first eighteen minutes of this podcast
http://robbwolf.com/2012/10/02/carb-ketogenic-cyclic-ketogenic-episode-152/
he goes into low carb, ketogenic and cyclic ketogenic diets

as far as safety, yes it is safe IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!!
Ketogenic enteral nutrition as a treatment for obesity: short term and long term results from 19,000 patients
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/9/1/96/abstract"_
"Conclusion
Ketogenic Enteral Nutrition treatment of over 19,000 patients induced a rapid 10% weight loss, 57% of which was Fat Mass. No significant adverse effects were found. The treatment is safe, fast, inexpensive and has good one-year results for weight maintenance."_

If you eat sweet potato and (if tolerated) potatoes and other tubers you will get heaps of carbs

For crohn's i'd recommend Paleo, which is usually low carb but doesn't have to be, and you can mix it up to be ketogenic if you want to or high carb if that's what you need


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## InstantCoffee

Thanks for the input. 
Whenever I ask about things on bodybuilding.com forum and mention crohns they tell me to find a crohns forum or ask my doctor, who would refer me to the nutritionist whom I stopped seeing because his only advice was to eat foods I can't tolerate and get some expensive GI studies done that always leave me incredibly ill afterwards, since I'm doing fine on my own I'd rather leave that can of worms unopened. 

I guess I'll further investigate proper ketogenic nutrition and risks before deciding to go further.


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## hugh

I'm interested in why you want to go ketogenic?
I haven't heard of anyone recommending it for crohn's (it would probably be good if you can tolerate meat and fat well) but it is probably WAY more restrictive than you need.

My diet is meat and fat and vegetables (lots of vegetable juice)
Stay away from grains, sugar, vegetable oil, and processed foods for a start

Start with Paleo/SCD/GAPS and mix in a bit of FODMAPS,
I'm a firm believer in starting at the beginning and with Crohn's it's leaky gut and intestinal bacteria.

If you go paleo then you are halfway to a ketogenic diet and can keep moving that way if you wish but it may not be necessary.


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## InstantCoffee

I can't eat most vegetables or juices to begin with.
When I say most, I mean everything thus far except bananas that I've tried is off-limits, and bananas are digested very slowly, motility issues or something. 

Some fruit juices I can tolerate, but I can't say specifically, I have Nopalea, it's an overpriced gimmick fruit juice that's supposed to help inflammatory conditions, and I can tolerate it.

Gluten intolerance and cooking oil intolerance rules out most grain products.

This is my basic daily diet, some variation sometimes, but most often is this or similar:

Get out of bed, have a frozen yogurt pop with morning coffee, when I wake up a bit I make a 3 egg omelette on two slices of gluten-free bread with cottage cheese and two slices of american cheese

Lunch is either two turkey burgers with two slices of american cheese, sometimes cottage cheese with it depending on appetite. 

Supper is chicken breast, turkey breast, or salmon with rice or GF noodles.

Sometimes I season with turmeric or garlic but I have to keep garlic intake low or I get loose BMs.

Throughout the day I will have yogurt or ice cream if it's available, cheese sticks, and coffee with milk or sweetened creamer.

As you can see my sugar and carb intake is already very low.

Sometimes I have crashes during the day, I become very sleepy, like I need a nap terribly, could this be blood sugar?


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## hugh

I'm surprised you tolerate so much dairy........

I don't know what you can handle so I don't know what you should do BUT if you are thinking ketogenic the think of Paleo as an introduction to ketogenic, and do more homework

I'd say your sugar/carb intake is high (compared to mine)
I eat carbs most evenings in the form of sweet potato, and what I get from veggies during the day (carrots mainly)

My suggestions......

Food intolerances can be a result of leaky gut, molecules that would normally be excluded are allowed through the intestinal lining, so it may change and more foods will be tolerated as healing happens,
Gluten is your worst enemy so avoid anything with it in.
Vegetable (seed) oils are bad for you, use animal fats or coconut oil for cooking and good olive oil for salads
If the turkey burgers are processed you want to check the ingredients (and on everything else)
Use honey if you need sweetener but use less
avoid SOY

I'd still say that you want to work on gut bacteria and intestinal permeability, 
-eat all the veggies you can tolerate, 
-leave ALL the grains out, dump the processed meats, the ice cream and frozen yogurt (hard cheese is ok – no lactose)
-Make your own SCD yogurt (I had problems with this but many tolerate it)
-buy a juicer (or go to a juice bar a few times to try it out) and have a few VEGETABLE juices (carrot and spinach with a touch of ginger?). Not fruit juice -high in fructose.

ONCE AGAIN _ PALEO is the first step to Ketogenic, so start there and stop eating all that processed shit,

crashes could be blood sugar but might not be, don't make assumptions.
Do they improve after carbs?

MY OPINION IS ONLY MY OPINION!!!!!!!!


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## hugh

Oh yeah,
 and give up coffee for a month!!!!!!


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## InstantCoffee

The turkey burgers have pretty limited ingredients, they're the most pure ones I could find and the only ones that don't make me sick, most have 'all natural seasoning' which always makes me ill.

I get that about coffee all the time, I've given it up in the past with no beneficial effect and I recovered from an ulcer while still on it so I don't really think it's an issue with me but I could be wrong. I mostly just keep at it because it's the only way I get enough fluids in. Contrary to popular belief you don't really dehydrate from coffee unless you drink very little and no other fluids, it will generally replace what it causes you to shed.


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## Price

Keto isn't for bulking? I mean you're going to be on 30g carbs max if you want to hit ketosis, so how are you going to get any calories? 

I mean I know it's used for cutting, since ketosis is using fat for energy instead of carbs, but how are you bulking on it? Be careful of what you read on sites like those since a lot of the users are juicing and unless you do that yourself your results are going to be different.

Anyway to list any of the risks, low bodyfat isn't the best thing to have when you get ill. I think you should definitely have a real read about the risks and effects of ketosis before you decide to go on this diet. Think about the water you'll be losing if you do get ill too. Granted I've seen crazier ways to lose weight, but the fact you'll need to drink more water while in ketosis and the fact if you get unwell you could lose loads of water I definitely would not recommend it.


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## hugh

_ "low bodyfat isn't the best thing to have when you get ill."_
I agree with Price,
unless you're overweight or want to get ripped there is NO POINT,
even if you are overweight or wanting to get ripped you would be better off doing it in a slower way (low carb for example)
eat healthy paleo carbs


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## InstantCoffee

Price said:


> Keto isn't for bulking? I mean you're going to be on 30g carbs max if you want to hit ketosis, so how are you going to get any calories?
> 
> I mean I know it's used for cutting, since ketosis is using fat for energy instead of carbs, but how are you bulking on it? Be careful of what you read on sites like those since a lot of the users are juicing and unless you do that yourself your results are going to be different.
> 
> Anyway to list any of the risks, low bodyfat isn't the best thing to have when you get ill. I think you should definitely have a real read about the risks and effects of ketosis before you decide to go on this diet. Think about the water you'll be losing if you do get ill too. Granted I've seen crazier ways to lose weight, but the fact you'll need to drink more water while in ketosis and the fact if you get unwell you could lose loads of water I definitely would not recommend it.


http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=132598293
Though I don't deny there are a lot of steroid users I think the nutrition forum here is probably not going to contain many as a lot of the users are fairly health conscious and well informed about general wellness.

The other fact is most of my calories already come from fat and proteins, when I found the diet the most intriguing thing to me is it's so close to what I'm already limited to eating it doesn't seem like much of a leap.


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## hugh

InstantCoffee said:


> http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=132598293
> 
> The other fact is most of my calories already come from fat and proteins, when I found the diet the most intriguing thing to me is it's so close to what I'm already limited to eating it doesn't seem like much of a leap.


Wow, best ketosis post i've seen, and the link to ntritiondata is great.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/

I hear what you are saying _"it's so close to what I'm already limited to eating"_,
but cutting out veg that you tolerate doesn't make sense.

*Most of the benefits of Ketogenic diets are from the no grain/no sugar side of it* (to quote from his first paragraph - _" that keto (*or at least a diet low in grains/sugars* and high in fats) is a very healthy diet with numerous benefits"_

From an evolutionary standpoint we have been eating vegetables (and insects probably) forever and  larger amounts of meat for 250,000,000 years.
Grains 10,000,
sugar not so long, 
HFCS pretty recent,
canola oil - same
ice cream? well - not long at all

Not all ketogenic foods are paleo too,
 seed oils are inflammatory and not paleo for example

I'm not saying ketogenic isbad, i'm just saying that it is more restrictive than you need and if it were me i'd be keto *with veg juice* (which is close to what i am eating)

good luck whatever you decide


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## Charleigh

I agree with Hugh in many of his points.  I would definitely begin with SCD or Paleo first, being very careful with the fruit and veggies.  We have used the SCD but with a slow introduction of foods and it is really helping us to find our son's trigger foods.

Also, when you say juice do you mean commercially bottled juice?  Have you tried fresh juice ~ I think that fresh juice, made from your own juicer is the best way to get vitamins and minerals without having the fiber, which can cause so many troubles.

If I were you, I would cut all grains and dairy.  Limit yourself to white meat if that is what you can tolerate.  Add in the fruits and veggies you can tolerate and slowly add in (one at a time with a few days in between) other veggies and fruits to see how you react.  What about smooth nut butters?  Eggs?  And definitely try fresh juice ~ completely different than commercial juices.


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## Ya noy

Ketogenic diets?   Is that what they're calling the Atkins diet these days?  You know, that's from like the 70s, lol!

Risks?  You mean like from cholesterol, high blood pressure, constipation and potential intestinal damage from lack of sufficient fiber, along with the potential for liver damage stemming from the build up of toxic levels of ammonium as a byproduct of your body having to convert proteins to whatever sugar it is required for energy?    Let's not forget really bad breath. 

With the exception of really bad breath though, the rest of those potential risks are highly debatable. 

I don't know how any of that relates to Crohn's disease though.


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## InstantCoffee

Not quite, they explain that it's not the same as atkins but I don't know enough about atkins to say how they differ.

Overall it looks like the benefits aren't strong enough to make it worth it for me.


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## Ya noy

InstantCoffee said:


> Not quite, they explain that it's not the same as atkins but I don't know enough about atkins to say how they differ.
> 
> Overall it looks like the benefits aren't strong enough to make it worth it for me.


Please remember that everyone's body chemistry is different.  There are some ailments that only an extremely high fat content will provide any relief whatsoever.  Ever watch the movie " Lorenzo's Oil?"

I'm all for experimentation, to find  what works best for YOU.


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## hugh

InstantCoffee said:


> Not quite, they explain that it's not the same as atkins but I don't know enough about atkins to say how they differ.
> 
> Overall it looks like the benefits aren't strong enough to make it worth it for me.


Don't give up yet,
You are on the right track.

Aitkins is similar to Ketogenic but PALEO is where you want to start
(Not low fat paleo though)

With a ketogenic diet you can eat things that may not be beneficial (peanuts, cream, artificial sweeteners etc)
With a paleolithic diet you avoid many potentially harmful foods and you eat a reduced amount of carbs because many high carb foods (sugar,grain etc) are excluded
- 
It has worked for many different conditions and the benefits can be HUGE

Start by reading this.....
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2010/09/19/paleo-diet-solution/
_"Lectins such as WGA bind to a receptor in the microvilli, allowing WGA to be transported into the body. This is the mechanism of the autoimmune cascade I described above. If the gut wall (microvilli) becomes damaged, the entire contents of the intestines can now make its way into your system. Yes, that’s as bad as it sounds. You are not only in a position to create antibodies against WGA, which leads to autoimmunity, but you now have the potential to develop multiple allergies due to a permeable gut lining and inadequately digested food. *This is how you can develop allergies to chicken, beef, apples, or other normally benign foods.*

Additionally, if your gut is damaged, you expose yourself to a host of chemicals that would normally remain in the intestines. This can lead to conditions such as multiple chemical sensitivity syndrome, which is regarded more as a psychiatric problem than legitimate medical condition.

Let me be crystal clear about this: *Anything that damages the gut lining (including bacterial, viral, and parasitic infections, as well as alcohol, grains, legumes, and dairy) can predispose one to autoimmunity, multiple chemical sensitivities, and allergies to otherwise benign foods.* "_


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## InstantCoffee

Thanks for the information, I'd really like to try it but I'm not sure I can tolerate any of the fruits and vegetables given by their diet.

Last I checked I BELIEVE green beans are okay, lettuce is, the purple cabbage they put in standard salad mixes is but the carrots (often shaved) included may not be. If they were whole it would be easy to pick them out but shaved is not realistic.

I can tolerate cranberry sauce but get gassy and pass soft (but not loose) BMs afterwards, should this be avoided due to side effects? Also I can't be 100% on how natural it is, but it comes in a can, so probably not.

I see it recommends almonds. I know I cannot tolerate peanuts or peanut butter are almonds chemically different? 

Apple does terrible things to me. 

I don't know about tomato I can't remember the last time I had it. 

So it comes down to that maybe I could get  myself to tolerate these things on a Paleo diet, but how can I, in the mean time, fill the need for sugars when I can't?


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## hugh

InstantCoffee said:


> Thanks for the information, I'd really like to try it but I'm not sure I can tolerate any of the fruits and vegetables given by their diet.
> 
> Last I checked I BELIEVE green beans are okay, lettuce is, the purple cabbage they put in standard salad mixes is but the carrots (often shaved) included may not be. If they were whole it would be easy to pick them out but shaved is not realistic.
> 
> I can tolerate cranberry sauce but get gassy and pass soft (but not loose) BMs afterwards, should this be avoided due to side effects? Also I can't be 100% on how natural it is, but it comes in a can, so probably not.
> 
> I see it recommends almonds. I know I cannot tolerate peanuts or peanut butter are almonds chemically different?
> 
> Apple does terrible things to me.
> 
> I don't know about tomato I can't remember the last time I had it.
> 
> So it comes down to that maybe I could get  myself to tolerate these things on a Paleo diet, but how can I, in the mean time, fill the need for sugars when I can't?


There is an introduction diet for SCD,
Get yourself the book (Breaking the vicious cycle) or search the web 
http://pecanbread.com/f/how/introdiet.html
the idea is that you go on a very restricted diet for a while and as healing occurs you can add more foods to your diet

Unfortunately almost all processed foods are out, but do your own research
http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/legal/listing/

peanuts are not nuts, they are legumes,  but be wary of nuts until you are on the mend (after the intro diet)

as for your last question " but how can I, in the mean time, fill the need for sugars"........
Seriously dude? you were all gungho for a ketogenic diet, now you don't know if you can do a way milder diet?

Firstly, honey is SCD legal (but use sparingly), secondly, FAT is good for you

GET THE BOOK OR DO SOME SERIOUS RESEARCH ONLINE:biggrin:

I found SCD helpful but it led me to paleo which is working well for me.
The thing about SCD that kept me from improving was the yogurt (not shop bought - homemade to the instruction!!!!!!!!) but you say you are OK with dairy


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## InstantCoffee

You misunderstand. 

Ketogenic is an all-or-nothing diet. If I'm on it I don't need to worry about sugars because I'm not supposed to have them because if you start them too soon your body won't convert to ketosis, you need the full 10-30 days to change your metabolism, then you can have sugars in small amounts on a given day to restore your glycogen but too much and you'll go back to glycolisis. 

If I'm not on a ketogenic diet however, and on SCD or paleo instead, I do need sugars since my body isn't using fats as energy, but can't get them through grains or processed foods, which are some of the only sugars I can tolerate. 

I suppose I could do honey.

It's easy enough for me to not have sugars at all, but to have to find safe sugars is quite difficult. I guess I also need to look into what kind of quantity I need.


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## hugh

Not really an issue, paleo can be ketogenic or not, as you wish, so I guess you will go into partial ketosis or slip in or out of ketosis depending on how many carbs you take. Wether you are in ketosis doesn not matter for your intestines,

You will burn fat and carbs , might be an adjustment period (low-carb flu) 

Not a isue as you are not trying for ketosis, but are going low carb so you o not need to replace the sugars with other sugars.
You ddo want to balance the diet for nutrition so fresh vegetable juice would add vitamins, enymes, and carbs
(sorry,this is from my phone)


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## Crohn2357

InstantCoffee said:


> It's easy enough for me to not have sugars at all, but to have to find safe sugars is quite difficult. I guess I also need to look into what kind of quantity I need.


I have the same problem. Right now I'm trying to combine Autoimmune paleo diet restrictions with ketogenic diet. It's been good for Crohn's; but I'm losing weight.  I'm in a Mediterranean country and coconut oil isn't available for eating here (too expensive), so I use extra virgin olive oil instead.

My questions: 
1) InstantCoffee, did you follow ketogenic diet? Some info on your diet would be appreciated.  
2) How to prevent weight loss on keto diet?


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## hugh

Ketogenic diets have been shown to be beneficial for some people with *Neurological problems*, not gut issues.

There is little benefit and a possible huge downside. *All the mucosal lining of your gut is made from and fed on glucose* (and glucogenic amino acids). You can severely increase gut problems by not feeding the mucosal layer (Leaky gut, anyone?)

Ketogenic is NOT where you want to be, maybe occasionally slipping in and out of ketosis as your carb intake  is low, but NOT in a continual ketogenic state

Auto Immune paleo on its own is *sensible*, trying to be keto at the same time is *stupid*, 
Eat 75g of carbs a day (sweet potato, yam etc) and let the Paleo A/I diet work.


worth a read....
*Disease Begins in the Mucus*
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2015/06/disease-begins-in-the-mucus/
_"On very low-carb diets, production of mucin-2, the primary constituent of gut mucus, may be limited in order to preserve glucose for the brain "_


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## Crohn2357

You're right, I was doing wrong. I'm going back to low (not too low) carb AIP for two reasons:
1. For the effects of keto on mucus layer, as you mentioned (thanks).
2. It's impossible not to lose weight on keto diet and losing weight is one of the last things I want to experience.

Well, unfortunately of all the carb sources (mono-di-polysaccharides...) there are only _two_ carb source I can eat without any gut/heart/neuro problems. These are cauliflowers and carrots. 
Well well, this is at least better than nothing, and I'm used to eating the same things every meal.
**************************************************************************************
EDIT:
On second thoughts, I decided I'll retry eating bananas. If the problem with fruits are caused by fructose for me, then bananas should be the least harmful of all, since their fructose:glucose ratio is the lowest (as far as I know). Moreover, because of their texture (and carb ratio) I guess, they don't increase intestinal peristalsis like the other fruits. I tend to eat 2 big meals in a day: roasted lamb, a lot of extra virgin olive oil [to keep me full] and from now on, I will add half kilograms of bananas in a meal -- How about that? In regards to carbs, this means 100 grams of carbs X 2 every day. I think this would be very balanced now. 

https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...set=&sort=default&order=asc&qlookup=09040&ds=
Note: I take some necessary supplements that are absent in my diet, like vit C, calcium, magnesium, vit D.


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## InstantCoffee

hugh said:


> Ketogenic diets have been shown to be beneficial for some people with *Neurological problems*, not gut issues.
> 
> There is little benefit and a possible huge downside. *All the mucosal lining of your gut is made from and fed on glucose* (and glucogenic amino acids). You can severely increase gut problems by not feeding the mucosal layer (Leaky gut, anyone?)
> 
> Ketogenic is NOT where you want to be, maybe occasionally slipping in and out of ketosis as your carb intake  is low, but NOT in a continual ketogenic state
> 
> Auto Immune paleo on its own is *sensible*, trying to be keto at the same time is *stupid*,
> Eat 75g of carbs a day (sweet potato, yam etc) and let the Paleo A/I diet work.
> 
> 
> worth a read....
> *Disease Begins in the Mucus*
> http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2015/06/disease-begins-in-the-mucus/
> _"On very low-carb diets, production of mucin-2, the primary constituent of gut mucus, may be limited in order to preserve glucose for the brain "_


IIRC the bacteroidetes bacteria in the gut can create butyric acid without external carbohydrates to restore the intestinal mucosa. There's a post about it somewhere in my logs, refers more to fasting but it works under the same premise.


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## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> You're right, I was doing wrong. I'm going back to low (not too low) carb AIP for two reasons:
> 1. For the effects of keto on mucus layer, as you mentioned (thanks).
> 2. It's impossible not to lose weight on keto diet and losing weight is one of the last things I want to experience.
> 
> Well, unfortunately of all the carb sources (mono-di-polysaccharides...) there are only _two_ carb source I can eat without any gut/heart/neuro problems. These are cauliflowers and carrots.
> Well well, this is at least better than nothing, and I'm used to eating the same things every meal.
> **************************************************************************************
> EDIT:
> On second thoughts, I decided I'll retry eating bananas. If the problem with fruits are caused by fructose for me, then bananas should be the least harmful of all, since their fructose:glucose ratio is the lowest (as far as I know). Moreover, because of their texture (and carb ratio) I guess, they don't increase intestinal peristalsis like the other fruits. I tend to eat 2 big meals in a day: roasted lamb, a lot of extra virgin olive oil [to keep me full] and from now on, I will add half kilograms of bananas in a meal -- How about that? In regards to carbs, this means 100 grams of carbs X 2 every day. I think this would be very balanced now.
> 
> https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...set=&sort=default&order=asc&qlookup=09040&ds=
> Note: I take some necessary supplements that are absent in my diet, like vit C, calcium, magnesium, vit D.


You might want to read up on FODMAPS,[1]
There are probably other Carbs that you can tolerate, you just haven't found them.....
I'm a great believer in short term carb restriction to bring bad bugs under control, just not extreme (keto) and not long term.
 Don't know you or your health so any advice should be treated with healthy scepticism. If banana ok then how bout plantain? Yams? Sweet potato?

Listen to this Podcast, might be useful
[1]Dr. Siebecker Explains the Art and Science of the FODMAP Diet (Podcast 45)
http://scdlifestyle.com/2012/09/dr-siebecker-explains-the-art-and-science-of-the-fodmap-diet-podcast-45/


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## Crohn2357

9 months ago I had a resection surgery. The surgeon resected some parts of the colon and I have been living with a colostomy stoma since then. The surgeon did not resect my rectum in order to attach my rectum and the remaining part of my colon (anastomosis) in a few months. Well, my rectum has always been in a very bad shape, and because it still is in a very bad shape, my doctors, surgeons said they'll leave the rectum and not attach it to my remaining colon; because it would make me symptomatic again, meaning it would aggravate Crohn's. 

Apart from my rectum, the other parts of my digestive organs (from stomach to small intestine and the remaining part of my colon...) are in a very good shape. I don't have any pain, there are no significant inflammation in these parts. So since my surgery I've been very healthy; gaining weight, no pain, I have energy, no diarrhea, no blood in the stool in my colostomy bag etc...

But as I said, my rectum has always been in a very bad shape and I still have rectal bleeding going on. 

Now comes the problem: If I eat fruits (any kind, doesn't matter) my rectal bleeding would increase rapidly and massively. 

I don't know if I'm explaining my situation articulately here. What I eat doesn't pass to my rectum because my surgeon closed my rectum. My rectum is not in contact with anything I eat. So, here is the question: Why does what I eat affect my rectum so intensely that it causes severely increased rectal bleeding? Does the general theory of  "carbs increase intestinal bacteria by feeding them" apply here? How?

As I said, fruits aggravate this reaction in my rectum. If I don't eat fruits, my rectal bleeding is much much better, it's incredible.

If we take "carbs increase intestinal (in this case rectal) bacteria and this, in turn increases immune response" to be true, then what explanation can we give on this specific situation of mine?

My hypothesis: I eat fruits, large amounts of sugar is absorbed  quickly, the sugar in my blood gets transported to my rectum via blood vessels, and capillary vessels, and after that, the sugar in the rectal tissue causes increased bacterial burden, this leads to increased transmural and mucosal inflammation and finally, as a result of this I get the rectal bleeding.

I don't know, it is hard to know. This is all speculation.
*************************************************

I ate bananas today, and yes... It made my rectal bleeding much much worse. It's unbelievable. 

You asked "how bout plantain? Yams? Sweet potato?" They all make me sick. They cause bloating and cause me to vomit. 
The Wiki article says that: "The banana is an edible fruit, botanically a berry" 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana

So I guess bananas are of different kind, and even bananas make me worse.
*************************************************

Apart from that, I can't eat fermented foods, I can't eat any nightshade family foods... These trigger a flare. I've tried very different veggies and foods in very different times with no success. 

I can't eat eggs and nuts too. Well, since I can't eat a lot of things, maybe I should list what can I eat instead.

Things I can eat: Carrots, cucumbers, olive oil, lamb, beef, fish, organic chicken and goat meat. That's all my diet consists of.

I stopped eating rice one month ago because eating rice causes cardio and neurological problems. It decreases my mental capacity and productivity. 

This is my situation.

Note: As for meds, I take max. dose of 6MP for Crohn's. I'm not unmedicated.


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## Tony71

Crohn2357 said:


> You're right, I was doing wrong. I'm going back to low (not too low) carb AIP for two reasons:
> 1. For the effects of keto on mucus layer, as you mentioned (thanks).
> 2. It's impossible not to lose weight on keto diet and losing weight is one of the last things I want to experience.
> 
> Well, unfortunately of all the carb sources (mono-di-polysaccharides...) there are only _two_ carb source I can eat without any gut/heart/neuro problems. These are cauliflowers and carrots.
> Well well, this is at least better than nothing, and I'm used to eating the same things every meal.
> **************************************************************************************
> EDIT:
> On second thoughts, I decided I'll retry eating bananas. If the problem with fruits are caused by fructose for me, then bananas should be the least harmful of all, since their fructose:glucose ratio is the lowest (as far as I know). Moreover, because of their texture (and carb ratio) I guess, they don't increase intestinal peristalsis like the other fruits. I tend to eat 2 big meals in a day: roasted lamb, a lot of extra virgin olive oil [to keep me full] and from now on, I will add half kilograms of bananas in a meal -- How about that? In regards to carbs, this means 100 grams of carbs X 2 every day. I think this would be very balanced now.
> 
> https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...set=&sort=default&order=asc&qlookup=09040&ds=
> Note: I take some necessary supplements that are absent in my diet, like vit C, calcium, magnesium, vit D.


Havent read all posts but 100% pure Honey works fantastic 
for me.


----------



## Tony71

Have'nt read all posts but 100% honey works fantastic for me and do not heat it. Eat raw from the can or make chocolate with coconut oil!!!!!


----------



## Crohn2357

Tony, honey messes me up. It's mostly just sugar. 
**************************************************

I read this one just now: http://www.thepaleomom.com/how-many-carbs-should-you-eat

A good read.


----------



## Tony71

Chron2357 read my post in :My elimination diet

Oki, too bad cause honey is'nt just ordinary sugar! It should be good food for our stomach beneficial for good bacterias and bad for candida, virus, bad bacterias, parasites!!!! But it's the amount maybe our crossing with other bad sugar/carbs!? I eat maybe 1-3 teaspoons/day, raw not in tea. Its too hot and the honey looses its purpose.
But if you cant eat it you cant. Can it be other food you eat that messes everything up. For example i wouldn't eat pasta made by corn. Turbosugar and bad for us. One ingredient low lectine food and no gluten/dairy and i have got a new life in 7weeks and i mean a totally new life in almost every aspect. Energy, health, symptoms i had for 18 years gone in 7weeks or reduced, brainfunction, results at the gym etc etc...... and i have no allergies found whatsoever!!!!!! 

I both have an education as a chef and in nutrition but we all have a different story. I was stubborn with my old/bad diet until my latest flare. Now like i said its a different story


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> Tony, honey messes me up. It's mostly just sugar.
> **************************************************
> 
> I read this one just now: http://www.thepaleomom.com/how-many-carbs-should-you-eat
> 
> A good read.


It is a good read, she's a good source of info.

You are way outside 'guy on a forum said try this' territory, so keep that in mind.

Firstly, is there still anything out of a packet in your diet (stabilisers, preservatives, 'natural' flavours, premixed, etc) that you might be overlooking?

Secondly, can you have a tablespoon of starch at a time, rather than a plateful.
If one of your problems is FODMAPS malabsorption then you might slip under the bloating/vomiting threshold - just a thought, and way outside anything that anybody but you can decide on.....
Starches like rice (i know it is not Paleo AIP, but not loosing weight is probably a priority) break down to glucose, no fructose. A tablespoon 8 times a day?

Thirdly, have you been tested for secondary conditions - candida, disbiosis, parasites, etc?

Heard good things about cabbage juice (sip tiny amount (couple of teaspoons) and test then build up). Vegetable juice in general (celery is a good base) but VERY individual and not even sure about suggesting it....

Best of luck


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> Firstly, is there still anything out of a packet in your diet (stabilisers, preservatives, 'natural' flavours, premixed, etc) that you might be overlooking?


No, absolutely not. I'm very careful.




hugh said:


> Secondly, can you have a tablespoon of starch at a time, rather than a plateful.
> If one of your problems is FODMAPS malabsorption then you might slip under the bloating/vomiting threshold - just a thought, and way outside anything that anybody but you can decide on.....
> Starches like rice (i know it is not Paleo AIP, but not loosing weight is probably a priority) break down to glucose, no fructose. A tablespoon 8 times a day?


I don't get digestive problems from rice based starches; but after eating rice (which I always try to eat very little in every meal) I get palpitations, I get an unresistable feeling of sleepiness and my mental sharpness, my productivity in general drops severely.
But, I get this from any kind of carbohydrates, be it polysaccharides or monosaccharides depending on the dosage. 

I don't have low potassium or low magnesium or low iron... ,and I don't have insulin problems, thyroid problems etc... that is contributing (or causing) to this effect.

My very recent experimentation with bananas are going a little better, but time will tell. I decreased the quantity of bananas I eat and it has made a positive effect on my digestive system, comparing to higher doses. This reminds me of Paracelcus' maxim "_The dose makes the poison_".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison



hugh said:


> Thirdly, have you been tested for secondary conditions - candida, disbiosis, parasites, etc?


I've been tested for candida and parasites, don't have these problems. As for dysbiosis, don't we, Crohn's patients, all have it? I do not think mine is more severe than others. On the contrary, mine is probably a little better than others.



hugh said:


> Heard good things about cabbage juice (sip tiny amount (couple of teaspoons) and test then build up). Vegetable juice in general (celery is a good base) but VERY individual and not even sure about suggesting it....



I experimented with red cabbage juice in the past, more then twice. It causes discomfort for me. I've also tried vegetable juices (namely: combinating celery, lettuce, carrots, and a small apple). While it doesn't give me any problems, I prefer to eat cooked veggies rather then drink their juices because
1)I want to get more fiber in my diet.
2)In relation to that, solid veggies prevent me from eating too many meals in a day. It has to do with blood sugar, you know.

Nevertheless, it's good that you reminded me the celery. I completely forgot that one. I'll add it to my diet.

With my banana experiment, at this point, this will be a waiting game for me I guess. Maybe it'll turn out OK and I can add bananas to my diet. 



hugh said:


> Best of luck


Thank you again. Goodbye.


----------



## Crohn2357

I've been eating bananas for the last 3 days, and I've been getting increasingly worse. I didn't have any abdominal pain 3 days ago (and before that...) now I have abdominal pain. Eating bananas also aggravated the narrowing around my stoma area large intestine. Fruits clearly trigger Crohn's flares for me, this isn't the first (or second, third...) time this is happening.

Sometimes you have to accept the fact and move on I guess. From now on, I'll only eat cooked veggies as carb sources. 
Besides, veggies have low glycemic index which prevents too much fatigue after eating.

Still, it was a good try.


----------



## hugh

crohns2357,
been thinking and all i can add is:
slow cooked gelatinous stews,
bone broth,
gelatin and collagen hydrolysate,
and if you can tolerate, half teaspoon of liquid off sauerkraut, building up slowly to real amounts


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh, thanks. Collagen hydrolysate isn't available here, but your advice reminded me l-glutamine powders I used to take. I'll start taking them again. I think it would help.



D Bergy said:


> I have only recently been using L-Glutamine on  more regular basis.  I have to say it is one supplement that has a quite noticeable effect.  The thing I notice is the ability to eat and drink things that typically are irritating to my intestinal tract.
> 
> I drink a lot of coffee and when I am flared, I can't tolerate it at all.  Since it is an easy way to gauge my intestinal irritation, I use the amount of coffee I am able to drink as a guide to how things are going in there.
> 
> When using the glutamine, I am able to drink most any amount of coffee without irritation or cramping that comes with drinking a lot of it.
> 
> I read that the lack of this amino acid may be connected to Crohns.  It certainly seems it is beneficial for me either way.  For something I expected very little of, it certainly was a pleasant surprise.  It really does seem to have a protective effect on the intestinal tract.
> 
> Dan





kiny said:


> glutamine is involved in tissue repair and wound healing
> 
> not just natural practitioners use it, ask a hospital what they give a patient with severe bleeding by trauma, often it includes glutamine at 30-50 grams through IV
> 
> I take it, since it has a very high toxicity limit.





kiny said:


> the small intestine use glutamine extensively, the colon does not.


Edit:This new Cochrane review  seems a bit discouraging now, but it doesn't matter really. I'll use it because I still think it would help my digestive system, and besides, l-glutamine helps with sugar craves too. It also helps with energy levels, mental focus etc...
http://paleoleap.com/glutamine/
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/inmag8.htm


----------



## hugh

Yeah, I looked into l-glutamine and it seems to be really helpful for alot of people. But I have anxiety issues so that's why I concentrated of getting it from foods (all the other associated amino acids in balance), and it seems to help.
For every one article against it I find 10 or more in favour. 
Thought this was good, slowly increase dosage, stop if there are issues, not for everyone etc...
http://scdlifestyle.com/2015/09/l-glutamine-7-dos-and-donts/


----------



## Crohn2357

I too have anxiety issues, so maybe I should do as you do. 

What I really want to achieve is increasing my mental focus, my concentration. I want to improve my cerebral performance, productivity etc... via nutrition. 

You see, my fields of study are highly abstract (philosophy of mathematics and sciences in general, modern logic, axiomatic systems...) and I'm actually having real problems with studying them due to concentration issues, low energy, low blood pressure... I also have an overactive imagination that makes studying a little harder. Not being able to study properly, in turn, causes stress and makes me feel bad.

I'm wondering if you can help me with this? I greatly appreciate your advices.

Some background info on my current state:
My diet is AIP for more than two years. My health is good (MRI and blood tests show my Crohn's is in generally behaving good).

I get extensive blood tests regularly. No hormonal or any other kinds of problems... Blood sugar is good. Thyroid functions are good. Iron levels, hemoglobin levels are good. electrolyte levels are good etc...

My diet consists of two things, actually quite simple:
Fish/organic chicken/red meat + veggies cooked with lard. 

Sometimes I eat walnuts, that's all.

Increasing vegetables I eat helps with blood glucose levels and alertness. If I don't eat enough carbs I crave sugar... So I try to eat enough veggies (cauliflowers, squashes and carrots generally) in every meal.

I take fish oil for mental performance. It helps a little.

I recently increased my salt intake and drink more water to normalize my blood pressure.

I take vit c, vit d, magnesium and calcium as supplements.

I'm especially exhausted after eating a meal. One possible explanation I give for this effect is: Low blood pressure after eating (postprandial hypotension).


> Postprandial hypotension is a sudden drop in blood pressure after eating. It affects mostly older adults.
> 
> Just as gravity pulls blood to your feet when you stand, a large amount of blood flows to your digestive tract after you eat.
> 
> Ordinarily, your body counteracts this by increasing your heart rate and constricting certain blood vessels to help maintain normal blood pressure. But in some people these mechanisms fail, leading to dizziness, faintness and falls.


http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/low-blood-pressure/basics/causes/con-20032298

Another mechanisms involved: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-I-experience-tiredness-and-fatigue-after-eating
*****************************

Take great care.


----------



## Tony71

Sorry to hear about all food problems your having  i too have problems with "raw" bananas so i have a new favourite dish. Often eat this for breakfast, it's astart for a king  I fry 150gr diced chicken filet in ghee and then adding a "green" diced eco-banana, little garlic powder and salt and in the end adding 100gr pre-boiled white ris, i only eat uncke ben's white rice it works great for me! then tasting of with a touch of soy sauce. 

About you asking why your rectum part is being a mess but nothing goes there, it sounds like increased inflammation, then you maybe should eat a lot of anti-inflammatory food/drinks: ghee, "cold" oliveoil, coconut oil, boil of curcumin/ginger shotting it morning/evening, peppermint tea and most important for me is stay away from gluten, lectines- for me the worse are tomatoes, all kind of peppers... Dairy is ok for me sometimes but i dont eat any dairy 9/10 days! I myself is going all in with my dietnow, the docs wanted to start medicating but im on my way with the diet, well see its a trial and error but ive already got tons of positive affects only in 8weeks on the diet, last no pain beforegoing to toilette. Have had that pain for 20 F* years and the pain is gone in 8weeks without any meds just totally commited to the food, i wanna shoot my old doc. who called me a hypocondriac with ibs and here we are with a two week old Crohns diagnose.  Hope you find more ways with your diet to get more everyday joy, good luck! I personally will never try lchf again, it was bad for me but we are different! My polyneuropathy whent bananas on lchf but now on no gluten and a lot of antiinflammatory food its reduced by 60-70% in 8 weeks! Hillarious life, sick for eighteen years, fighting with the system and docs then getting full pension 3 years ago and now i believe i will be 80-90% healthy again and go back to work etc etc this is insain cause it's the food 90-100% for me. Wheat-gluten, lectines, sugar and dairy have together stolen half my life , thats how i see it! Im very happy and thankful now but a bit "bitter" aswell. 
Good luck now and interesting reading Hugh's posts aswell


----------



## Tony71

So here is what i eat a part from food: * =doing it myself
Honey 100% , thymehoney *
Probiotics
Sour cabbage *
Ghee *
Coconut oil
Olive oil
Peppermint tea, green tea
Boil of "curcumin" and ginger ( ginger in at 60 degrees celsius) *
Mineral salt, Himalaya salt
Fresh fish oil
D-vit fresh
Membrasin Omega-7 fresh

And im adjusting all the time. Especially About lectin food and dairy products!


----------



## hugh

crohn2357,
i can not really offer any more advice, while i read alot about food and crohns, its way too individual, and i'm just some random guy.....
i'm loving plantains and green cooking bananas, just fried in thin slices with coconut oil or lard. less sugar than bananas, but starch and fibre.....

i didn't mean to put you off L-glutamine, just saying i started with bone broth,gelatin, slow cooked meats etc because i am a believer in food first, supplements second. by all means try it and see, you will know soon enough if it is for you.....
since bone broth etc helped i am reviewing brands and will probably start taking L-glutamine in the next few weeks. The more i read [1] , the more sure that i will give it a go.

Still have a strong feeling that we all need good bugs, and starting with half a teaspoon of liquid from a good kraut is worth thinking about.....
Can you tolerate yougurt, kefir any probiotics?

[1] http://healthvibed.com/l-glutamine-for-leaky-gut-syndrome/


----------



## Crohn2357

Tony71, I'm happy you've found your way to wellness. I hope it continues for you. 

hugh, I'll try cooking green bananas. It's worth a try.

That link you gave is very good, very informative. I'm going to start taking l-glutamine again, and will start slowly, observe the effects etc...

As for good bugs, I can't take them. Fermented foods give me extreme gastrointestinal problems, because I have a bad case of histamine intolerance.

I'm also suspicious about taking probiotics while having intestinal permeability dysfunction (leaky gut). I don't know if I should want to increase bacterial population in my digestive system. I really don't know, this topic seems a bit complicated and unsettled to me.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> As for good bugs, I can't take them. Fermented foods give me extreme gastrointestinal problems, because I have a bad case of histamine intolerance.
> 
> I'm also suspicious about taking probiotics while having intestinal permeability dysfunction (leaky gut). I don't know if I should want to increase bacterial population in my digestive system. I really don't know, this topic seems a bit complicated and unsettled to me.


complicated it is,
biggest non-food source of histamines in the body can be the gut bacteria.
some bacteria produce histamines and some degrade them.
Histamine intolerance is (in my view) pretty much a symptom of disbiosis, but a symptom that prevents you from correcting the disbiosis.
On top of that DOA (diamine oxidase), the enzyme that breaks down histamine is mainly produced by the mucus lining of the intestinal wall.

L-glutamine, gelatin, bone broth, etc to feed mucus lining.
Low carb (but not Very LC) to starve bad bugs, and eventually Kraut juice but below histamine tolerance (the idea being that you will degrade a certain amount of histamine, and only have problems if histamine intake/production exceeds histamine elimination/degradation....)

so maybe once things improve lick the back of a spoon that has been dipped in kraut juice, or see if there is research into specific bacteria that degrade histamines and take low dose of them.......


----------



## Tony71

Txs Chron and hope you will find something soon.

If you havent tried the "boil off" i do it myself with fresh ginger/turmeric root first you "grate" it, take about 100gr turmeric root 250-350gr ginger root. Use gloves the turmeric colors everything!!! 

First boil the grated turmeric in 1.2-1.5L water for 8-10 min. Let it be and when it reaches 60degrees celsius add the grated ginger root and let it be for the night/1-2 days depends on how strong you want it to be. I havent had a cold/flu since starting drinking this, its very antiinflammatory and used in asia for a long long time against bowl/stomach illness also !? Could be worth a try !? 

Hugh txs for all info  i tried L-glutamine before and i didnt like it but will make bone broth and add that to my daily routine and see if it helps further. 

Txs and GL


----------



## Crohn2357

I think histamine intolerance comes from dysbiosis and leaky gut. I see your point hugh, it's a good advice; but after all these years, now that I'm feeling good (regarding my health), I don't want to rock the boat. 

I did some research on histamine degrading bacteria, but the data is not concrete enough from what I read, and the probiotic product line here is very limited. 

I bought l-glutamine powders today, gonna give it a try again.


----------



## InstantCoffee

You guys mentioned anxiety, concentration etc. Have you looked into Trimethylglycine? 
https://examine.com/supplements/Trimethylglycine/

It's something I've been trying lately, its rap sheet makes it out like a miracle supplement.


----------



## Crohn2357

What to do with this?
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2004/05/01/glutamine.aspx

and these:
http://www.rlcure.com/glutamate2.html
http://neurotransporter.org/glutamate.html

It's assumed beneficial effects on brain and mental performance were the main reason I wanted to use l-glutamine. Now I think it would be contradictory. Maybe it's best to get it from meat and don't play with it.

Contrarily, increasing only GABA would actually do good in regards to calmness, focus, reducing anxiety and racing thoughts - from what I understand.


----------



## hugh

yeah, could go either way?
Glutamine to glutamate and then to GABA unless something is out of whack
Suck it and see:lol2:

not sure if it is totally right.... 
http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/how-to-increase-gaba-and-balance-glutamate/


----------



## Crohn2357

Man, I can't thank you enough for that link. It was an incredible article, very very helpful.

*************

I bought green bananas today and fried some with lard. Its taste was much better than what I had expected and it's a good source of carb and fiber. From now on, I plan to eat them regularly.


----------



## hugh

InstantCoffee said:


> You guys mentioned anxiety, concentration etc. Have you looked into Trimethylglycine?
> https://examine.com/supplements/Trimethylglycine/
> 
> It's something I've been trying lately, its rap sheet makes it out like a miracle supplement.


It does sound good, there's just too many supliments and so many interactions, does my head in.... 
Need to bone up on methylation now, see how it affects glutamine/GABA....

or just buy a jar and see if the fog in my head clears a bit.....


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> Suck it and see:lol2:


I've been reading about gaba-glutamate,glutamine in brain- a really interesting area. I've read a lot since yesterday and some findings seem conflicting. 

"Suck it and see" seems, at this point, a good way to go (with caution).


----------



## InstantCoffee

hugh said:


> yeah, could go either way?
> Glutamine to glutamate and then to GABA unless something is out of whack
> Suck it and see:lol2:
> 
> not sure if it is totally right....
> http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/how-to-increase-gaba-and-balance-glutamate/



It had me until 


> For example, the rubella virus, which is found in the MMR vaccination can decrease activity of glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD)by as much as fifty percent.


Suggesting that a dead virus is responsible for anything, they're going to need to back that up with a lot of scientific evidence if they want to make bold, outlandish claims. 

I'm skimming through but isn't the blood-brain barrier going to prevent a lot of oral supplements from effecting brain chemistry? That's why oral supplementation of things like GABA and many nootropics are so weak.


----------



## hugh

InstantCoffee said:


> Suggesting that a dead virus is responsible for anything, they're going to need to back that up with a lot of scientific evidence if they want to make bold, outlandish claims.
> 
> I'm skimming through but isn't the blood-brain barrier going to prevent a lot of oral supplements from effecting brain chemistry? That's why oral supplementation of things like GABA and many nootropics are so weak.


Firstly, i think L-glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD - the enzyme that turns glutamate to GABA) is produced in the pancreas, and there are a lot of papers referencing the link between viruses and GAD autoimmune reactions,
Pretty quickly gets past anything i can follow or comment on....

I did say that i wasn't sure it is totally right.
haven't found the paper, just other references to it. 
I think it all comes from studies associating viral infections with pancreatic damage leading to T1 diabetes
MMR is an attenuated (weakened) live virus vaccine, so they might be stretching it (but might also be accurate) to say that vaccines have the same virus are naturally infected rubella, which is associated with GAD autoimmune reactions.

Like i said, WAY above my pay grade.... 

_"Rubella virus has been suggested to cause type 1 diabetes, but so far only congenital rubella syndrome has conclusively been associated with the disease"_
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2570378/

but found another web page making the same claim (unreferenced).....
_"One of the things that interferes with the activity of the GAD enzyme is the rubella virus. This is the same virus as is in the MMR vaccination. It has been shown in the type 1 diabetes that the rubella virus can cause the GAD enzyme to stop functioning. The body makes antibodies against it. In some studies, enzyme activity was decreased by 50%."_
https://chronicdiseaserecovery.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/glutamate-and-gaba-balance/

interestingly the next paragraph puts your suggestion of Trimethylglycine in a good light (i think, im sure methylation is more complicated that)
_"This connects back to methylation. If you are making too few methyl groups and you cannot methylate virus to silence or kill it, and you can’t make T-cells to deal with the infection because you have too few methyl groups, then you are more likely to wind up with chronic infection when you do something like inject live virus into an immune compromised body." _


----------



## hugh

crohn2357,
have you considered whey protein?, while high in glutamine, whey is a "high quality protein" (those with complete amino acid profiles) .
Just based on reading, no experience with it.
I started with bone broth, gelatin and slow cooked gelatinous meats, and this looks like a good supplement to try.....

_"In general, whey protein is seen as beneficial to the lining of the intestines, especially in clinical settings where intestinal function is impaired.[112] One study in rats found that whey, to a greater extent than soy or Casein Protein, could promote GLP-2 activtiy in the intestines and subsequent intestinal cell growth.[113] Anabolism of gut tissue may only apply to higher quality proteins (those with complete amino acid profiles) as at least one study found an absence of anabolism after gelatin protein.

At least one human intervention has noted that whey protein at 0.5g/kg bodyweight for 2 months in persons with Crohn's Disease *was approximately as effective as Glutamine *at 0.5g/kg bodyweight in reducing intestinal permeability; this study actually used whey as an active control before concluding its efficacy"_
https://examine.com/supplements/Whey Protein/#summary7-0
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22038507


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh, I haven't tried supplementing pure whey; but based on the same idea I tried goat's curd -which is mostly just whey. I did react to it badly (triggered a flare up) after 2 days of eating it.

I think I won't be online for some time, the computer steals too much time from me, interferes with my studies. I'm sure you know this feeling... I open the pc, and get lost in reading on a lot of different subjects and the day is over...

So I move my laptop from its usual place.

Anyway, it was very nice talking to you, and very helpful too.

Take great care, goodbye.


----------



## InstantCoffee

I might have to buy some more unflavored whey. Then I just have to find something crohn's safe to make the flavor tolerable.


----------



## Tony71

Just want to let you know that my flare has whent in remission and whitout any meds at all !!!!! 

whent all in on the diet as you know, now 9weeks glutenfree, 3weeks dairyfree and a lot of other changes in the diet, like i wrote. My calciprotektin was 2170 in sept-okt and talked to the doc yesterday and my testresult from two weeks back was down on 6 !!!!!!!


----------



## Tony71

hugh said:


> crohn2357,
> have you considered whey protein?, while high in glutamine, whey is a "high quality protein" (those with complete amino acid profiles) .
> Just based on reading, no experience with it.
> I started with bone broth, gelatin and slow cooked gelatinous meats, and this looks like a good supplement to try.....
> 
> _"In general, whey protein is seen as beneficial to the lining of the intestines, especially in clinical settings where intestinal function is impaired.[112] One study in rats found that whey, to a greater extent than soy or Casein Protein, could promote GLP-2 activtiy in the intestines and subsequent intestinal cell growth.[113] Anabolism of gut tissue may only apply to higher quality proteins (those with complete amino acid profiles) as at least one study found an absence of anabolism after gelatin protein.
> 
> At least one human intervention has noted that whey protein at 0.5g/kg bodyweight for 2 months in persons with Crohn's Disease *was approximately as effective as Glutamine *at 0.5g/kg bodyweight in reducing intestinal permeability; this study actually used whey as an active control before concluding its efficacy"_
> https://examine.com/supplements/Whey Protein/#summary7-0
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22038507



No way No Whey 

This feels difficult this topic,  have a friend who doesnt have ibd but hes got an inflammation couple of years back and the doc he met, said that all these whey/protein supplements are really bad for us cause we cant digest them the way we should and my friends inflammation was caused by proteinsupplements due to the doc!? everything isnt ok cause it says so in a study!? These whey studies could be founded by the sports nutrition companies!!?? Why is ibs/ibd's getting more common ? Gluten/wheat is one big reason, lectins anothet, dairy another. The doc warned that this a reason aswell And how come that whey is beneficial but other dairy isnt, what ive learned and read humans cant digest dairy so im very confused. I dont believe the study or whey but thats my personal opinion.


----------



## Crohn2357

Hey hugh, I wanted to express my gratitude for telling me about green bananas. 

I first fried them with lard, it was okayish. 
Then I boiled them for 90 minutes and it turned out quite good.
Now I'm cooking them in my microwave oven for 10 minutes. Much better this way. 

They're very easy to make, tasty and quick. It gives me the carbs I needed (starches) that I had struggled to find a safe source for years.

Thank you.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357
my pleasure, i love those green cooking bananas

curds are casein protein, whey is whey protein,
not saying it's good, just saying it's different


----------



## Crohn2357

I think I translated it's name incorrectly. It's a traditional whey cheese here, not curd but something similar to ricotta. It's just whey and some little lactose- no casein. I took lactase tablets before eating this cheese to make sure that I wasn't reacting to lactose.


----------



## InstantCoffee

Tony71 said:


> No way No Whey
> 
> This feels difficult this topic,  have a friend who doesnt have ibd but hes got an inflammation couple of years back and the doc he met, said that all these whey/protein supplements are really bad for us cause we cant digest them the way we should and my friends inflammation was caused by proteinsupplements due to the doc!? everything isnt ok cause it says so in a study!? These whey studies could be founded by the sports nutrition companies!!?? Why is ibs/ibd's getting more common ? Gluten/wheat is one big reason, lectins anothet, dairy another. The doc warned that this a reason aswell And how come that whey is beneficial but other dairy isnt, what ive learned and read humans cant digest dairy so im very confused. I dont believe the study or whey but thats my personal opinion.


It's a blind generalization on lactose intolerance. Some people don't produce enough lactase enzyme naturally to digest dairy, some people do. People that don't shouldn't be consuming dairy. 

I have yet to see any real evidence for milk being bad or indigestible outside of this.


----------



## Crohn2357

I'm going to try ginkgo biloba for mental performance. Any experiences or ideas?


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> I'm going to try ginkgo biloba for mental performance. Any experiences or ideas?


No idea but let us know how it goes. I feel like I've had a hangover/head cold for about 5 years now


----------



## Crohn2357

I will let you know.

this is the product I'm going to use, starting today.


----------



## Crohn2357

http://www.jbc.org/content/278/49/49279.long

Not sure what to make of this, doesn't sound good for long term usage though.


hugh said:


> I feel like I've had a hangover/head cold for about 5 years now


I have the same problem, and I'm getting tired of trying to solve this, keep things up mentally.

I'm REALLY frustrated. You know, the best mental state I've ever reached was when I was on the ketogenic diet. It just works, and it is safer than taking these supplements. If I could keep my weight up on the keto diet, I would definitely follow it. I don't know if it is doable or not...
To increase the fat I should eat on keto diet, I could mix mct oil or extra virgin olive oil with vegetable juices and drink them; but both oils give me unbelievable diarrhea... 

Maybe, instead of taking big quantities of these oils, taking small quantities more frequently would help with diarrhea.

Instead of these oils, I could try ghee but I'm very sensitive to casein (and homemade ghee has some casein) so I'd rather stay clear of it. 

I don't think I can ever reach the mental power when I was on ketogenic diet again in any other way.

Edit: http://fixyourgut.com/diarrhea-from-mct-oil-why-disaster-pants-arent-as-cute-as-they-sound/
---------

hugh, the positive (cerebral) effects you get from ketogenic diet is simply amazing. You become calm, alert (in a good way) your mood doesn't fluctuate, you don't crave foods, it sharpens your mind, gives you a sense of well being... It is like you're constantly on amphetamines without its psychotic high feeling.

I really miss that feeling.

-----------
I don't know if you can handle drinking tea? Especially green tea, because of the mixture of L-theanine + caffeine and antioxidants... I can't drink green tea, as it triggers my Crohn's; but if I could, I think it would be a big help.

Maybe I should look into meditation. I think it may help; though I'm very ignorant about it.

By the way, my rectal bleeding got massively increased today, probably due to the ginkgo's blood thinning effect. It is known to increase bleeding. I'm not going to take it again.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> hugh, the positive (cerebral) effects you get from ketogenic diet is simply amazing. You become calm, alert (in a good way) your mood doesn't fluctuate, you don't crave foods, it sharpens your mind, gives you a sense of well being... It is like you're constantly on amphetamines without its psychotic high feeling.
> 
> I really miss that feeling.
> 
> Maybe I should look into meditation. I think it may help; though I'm very ignorant about it.


I have dabbled with ketosis, and have felt better while in it but from what i've read i have not thought it safe to try to be permanently in ketosis.

Having said that i am trying to cut back my carb to 50/70 grams a day to be intermittently in ketosis. 
I think most of the studies that i have read about the dangers of Ketosis refer to 'long term ketosis'. whether that is a month or a year i don't know.
Intermittent fasting or even just intermittent carb restriction should be fine.

Some rambling thoughts that i am playing around with in my diet....
The studies i've seen (but can't find at the moment) linking low carb to gut lining problems fall into two areas,-

1-lack of carbs causing a deficiency in mucosal lining.

   -Glucose is a vital ingredient for the mucus lining the intestine so and carbs should be either starch or glucose (no fructose).
  -Carbs in non-starchy vegetables don't count as they are virtually indigestible  
  -What is the minimum amount required?

  -supplementing with L-glutamine (or L-glutamine rich foods like bone broth, gelatin) seems to decrease leaky gut and help repair
  For every anti-glutamine post i see, i see 10 pro-glutamine so i am going to give it a go and stop if i notice negative side effects

2-Lack of resistant starch causing biome to consume Gut mucosal lining.
  -Sufficient RS would minimize depletion of mucosal lining
  -Resistant starch would not affect ketosis
  -Raw plantain (blearghhhh? in smoothies?) has much higher RS than cooked
  - I did a while on potato starch but gave up potatoes entirely to help arthritis.
  - *might be a significant downside for people with SIBO - food for bugs in the wrong places*

just ideas......

Thoroughly recommend meditation (although not currently practicing.....)
Check out 'Mindsight' for a simple technique
http://www.drdansiegel.com/about/mindsight/


----------



## Crohn2357

Yea, problems related to gut lining is a real concern it seems.
A recent study I posted on research sub-forum: http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=79587

I've read about mindfulness in the past and I think I understood the concept quite well, and it makes the most sense; but it is actually really hard to incorporate into your life (at least that's what I've found).

I think, in terms of mentality and thinking, genetics play a huge role. I've been thinking about this for a long time, and, I'm increasingly believing that this is just true. Of course it doesn't determine everything, we need to do what we can do to progress our lives, research and practice is the way to "liberation" (as your signature says).

I believe AIP diet is the most healthy diet for someone with Crohn's.

I'll prepare bone broth soups again, it's good that you repeatedly reminded me that.

Back to mindfulness, I think it finely explains the most important mental problems. It articulates them collectively, gives good diagnosis etc... But "letting go" of past memories, intrusive thoughts, loop thinking, obsessive thinking, perfectionism etc... is really hard. How to let go? I know there are methods, different practices but I guess one should devout himself completely for some time to this kind of practice (mindfulness meditation) in order to see some progression.

Apart from dietary interventions, I find that eliminating most of the distractors help me. I first removed the tv in my house. I think tv is toxic and stupifying. This was now long time ago. 

Nowadays I've been thinking about eliminating internet and music from my life. Music has been addictive to me*, and I can't shake it off easily, so I've removed it from my life.

The same thing also applies to internet. When I'm on the internet, I spend too much time on it, can't control myself. So I'll completely cut internet from my life in around 2-3 days.

My principle is simple: I try my best to have control on something, but if I see that I don't have enough will power to control my actions with that thing, then I cut that thing out of my life (completely).

I don't know, I'm just trying my best to clarify my mental state at the moment...

*It's not surprising that music is addictive:
this study (Anatomically distinct dopamine release during anticipation and experience of peak emotion to music) says:
“Using the neurochemical specificity of [11C]raclopride positron emission tomography scanning, combined with psychophysiological measures of autonomic nervous system activity, we found endogenous dopamine release in the striatum at peak emotional arousal during music listening.”
“These results indicate that intense pleasure in response to music can lead to dopamine release in the striatal system.”
In the BBC news : Music 'releases mood-enhancing chemical in the brain' 
"In this study, levels of dopamine were found to be up to 9% higher when volunteers were listening to music they enjoyed."

*************
I'm going to buy the right beef bones and some carrots to make the bone broth today. I do like its taste, and it is the only soup I can drink. To make it, I let it boil for at least 24 hours on a very low heat.

This is the recipe I rely on: http://whole9life.com/2013/12/whole9-bone-broth-faq/


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## Crohn2357

Hey, I came back for a quick look. 

hugh, for the last 9 days I've been drinking bone broth (2 litres every day) and you were absolutely right about it being very good for Crohn's. Its effects are incredible.

I listened to your advice about adding probiotics slowly.



hugh said:


> L-glutamine, gelatin, bone broth, etc to feed mucus lining.
> Low carb (but not Very LC) to starve bad bugs, and eventually Kraut juice but below histamine tolerance (the idea being that you will degrade a certain amount of histamine, and only have problems if histamine intake/production exceeds histamine elimination/degradation....)
> 
> so maybe once things improve lick the back of a spoon that has been dipped in kraut juice, or see if there is research into specific bacteria that degrade histamines and take low dose of them.......


I add 1 teaspoon of organic apple cider vinegar to every cup of bone broth soup. It's been going good. 

I'll cut my internet connection today - again. I'm wishing you well.

Edit:  this is an excellent article on mindfulness , worth reading.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> .............
> I listened to your advice about adding probiotics slowly.
> ........


Glad to hear you are doing well.
There is a little research as to which bacteria  degrade histamines, do a google but so little research that any strong claims are probably exaggerations
" *Species that may be beneficial:*
Based on limited research into probiotics and histamine intolerance, the species considered to be beneficial as they are thought to downgrade biogenic amines (of which histamine is one) are Lactobacillus rhamnosus, Bifidobacterium infantis, Bifidobacterium longum, Lactobacillus plantarum, and possibly Lactobacillus reuteri* "
http://www.optibacprobiotics.co.uk/faq/which-probiotic-for-histamine-intolerance

So at a guess look at baby/infant probiotics


----------



## Crohn2357

I started to make homemade vinegar in my house, waiting for it to be done.

In regards to the bone broth soup, for its taste, the key is carrots. If I don't add any carrots in it (while making it) the result would be horrible. I can't even stand the smell of it. It repels me.

But, while making the bone broth, If I add at least 8 carrots (chopped) in,  it makes all the difference. The heavy smell disappears, the color becomes golden and the taste becomes great.

Just letting you know.


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## Crohn2357

hugh, I remember we talked about meditation, bone broth, sweet potatoes... along with many other things in this topic.

--- ---

I've been making bone broth soups, and drinking them ever since you said how beneficial you've found them. You were absolutely right. It _does_ help with Crohn's disease, like a medicine.

--- ---

About two weeks ago I started to research mindfulness meditation more, watched lectures by Jon Kabat-Zinn, and others, and read... I've been practicing mindfulness and mindfulness meditation for the last two weeks and it's, I'm not sure how to define, a liberating approach. In a sense, I feel enlightened and liberated. 

--- ---

Now, I have a question regarding safe carbs. You know I have problems with many foods, and I'm looking for more safe carb options.
I know you say yams, sweet potatoes, plantain, and white rice can be considered as good sources of safe carbs.
I've been eating sweet potatoes for a month, and I'm able to digest them without any bodily problems; but they are _ridiculously_ expensive in this damn country. Not suitable to eat in every meal, economically.
Plantains and yams are not on the market here, impossible to find.
White rice is a mystery for me. It always gives me heart palpitations and migraines associated with cardiovascular problems. That's the main reason I can't eat them. It's curious, because I don't have any cardiovascular problems normally.
Well, what else? I know you eat/drink (?) carrots and maybe other veggies' juices. I think I can do that; but I think it will not be a good source of carbohydrate _by itself alone_. 
Because by "safe carbs", I mean more like starches; not primarily monosaccharides or disaccharides. I want my blood sugar to be stable, you know.
Well, what else? I can't eat nightshades, can't eat cauliflowers (fodmap), no seeds, no nuts no fruits, no onions (fodmap), no beans...
If I could eat fruits, it'd help me solve the carb problem much more easily I think.

What else to eat? There is broccoli, celery, cabbage (can't eat this one by itself, you need to add something to it), beetroot (too much nitrate, causing problems), zucchini, Brussels sprouts, spinach, radish (have problems with this), okra, squash/pumpkin (how to eat this by itself, without any additions?)...

--- ---

Can you think of any other veggies? As you can see there are some veggies I can eat, but the problem with them is (apart from their taste), they don't have enough calorie. It's like eating grass. No caloric density unlike sweet potatoes or white rice or green bananas. 

I sometimes think that the act of eating and digesting them burns more calories than some of the vegetables' caloric content.

Have any advice? Just say whatever you can think of, I might be able to do/eat at least some of them.

I can see how ketogenic diet would make eating much easier for me; though it has its own very serious problems.

--- ---

Note: I might not be able to post a reply for a about a week; but I'll definitely read your answer, If you write.

Take care.

Edit: I actually find this helpful, hah.

--- ---

I'll try to microwave parts of a squash. It may turn out good.


----------



## hugh

Hi, sounds like your making good progress...



Crohn2357 said:


> --- ---
> Now, I have a question regarding safe carbs. You know I have problems with many foods, and I'm looking for more safe carb options.
> I know you say yams, sweet potatoes, plantain, and white rice can be considered as good sources of safe carbs.
> I've been eating sweet potatoes for a month, and I'm able to digest them without any bodily problems; but they are _ridiculously_ expensive in this damn country. Not suitable to eat in every meal, economically.
> Plantains and yams are not on the market here, impossible to find.
> White rice is a mystery for me. It always gives me heart palpitations and migraines associated with cardiovascular problems. That's the main reason I can't eat them. It's curious, because I don't have any cardiovascular problems normally.


Safe starch - “any starchy food that (after being properly cooked and prepared!) is low in fructose and relatively free from natural toxins (like lectins, saponins, and gluten and related proteins).”

Doesn't mean you need a lot of it, increase slowly and see if things get better or worse slowly (or increase quickly and see if things get better or worse quickly  )
Do you have a level or carbs that you are aiming for?? and then titrate a little each way to see if it gets better or worse?

http://balancedbites.com/paleo-diet-carbs/

Start with what's in season?, squash, great, some sweet, some not, but roasted in any good oil till slightly caramelised or crisp.....
- chestnuts are 'relatively' cheap at the moment, but I could have been out gathering acorns for free, next year ….

Next- Historically, what was the starch source?
Are there any local tubers, try a little bit....

Then-  what poor people eat (or sometimes, used to eat before subsidised junk replaced it).
Where are you? What are the labourers eating?
Probably rice and wheat?

Then - Rice, if “safe” but not well tolerated....
Eating small serve of rice with lots of oil will slow down absorption and (to some small degree) level out glucose, and also helps absorption of oil soluble vitamins



Crohn2357 said:


> Well, what else? I know you eat/drink (?) carrots and maybe other veggies' juices. I think I can do that; but I think it will not be a good source of carbohydrate _by itself alone_.
> Because by "safe carbs", I mean more like starches; not primarily monosaccharides or disaccharides. I want my blood sugar to be stable, you know.
> Well, what else? I can't eat nightshades, can't eat cauliflowers (fodmap), no seeds, no nuts no fruits, no onions (fodmap), no beans...
> If I could eat fruits, it'd help me solve the carb problem much more easily I think..


Fruit is higher in fructose (the 'bad' sugar). 'safe starches' are carbohydrates composed mostly (if not exclusively) from glucose. -
-can you get/tolerate bananas?
If you are concerned with getting enough carbs then monosaccharides like glucose (rice syrup) can be used in cooking, the dilution/concentration determining how much blood sugar moves.

But better from the food, go to a market and look at what the locals buy.



Crohn2357 said:


> What else to eat? There is broccoli, celery, cabbage (can't eat this one by itself, you need to add something to it), beetroot (too much nitrate, causing problems), zucchini, Brussels sprouts, spinach, radish (have problems with this), okra, squash/pumpkin (how to eat this by itself, without any additions?)...


Same thing, what grows there or is affordable?, 
-eat small amounts of one that you thing is worth trying and slowly increase if all is well

--- ---



Crohn2357 said:


> Can you think of any other veggies? As you can see there are some veggies I can eat, but the problem with them is (apart from their taste), they don't have enough calorie. It's like eating grass. No caloric density unlike sweet potatoes or white rice or green bananas.


get a realistic idea of how many you are eating. I find that if I eat carbs I feel I need more but if I eat less I want less



Crohn2357 said:


> I can see how ketogenic diet would make eating much easier for me; though it has its own very serious problems.


So, low carb some days, cycling in and out of ketosis,


--- ---


Crohn2357 said:


> I'll try to microwave parts of a squash. It may turn out good.


I like squash
https://www.google.com.au/search?cl...&oe=utf-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=ppJTWZ2GE8vN8gfEwa_4AQ


----------



## InstantCoffee

I would not recommend cycling in and out of ketosis, the body doesn't handle the transfer well for most people. Some people going on a fully ketogenic diet can takes weeks, to a month, where they're stuck in a pre-ketogenic state, their body isn't converting fats into energy like it should and they just end up feeling bad.

I would also highly suggest an indigestible fiber supplement (0 calorie) if doing keto to ensure gut bacteria health while not eating carbs. Psyllium husks have been a godsend to me.

It can also help with bile-acid diarrhea that's a frequent problem for crohn's sufferers, especially eating a high fat diet like keto.


----------



## hugh

I'll start of by repeating (not for you Crohn2357, for anyone else who has recently tuned in) _[edit - oops, that sounds like me being a smartarse shit, sorry, wasn't having a go at you Instant, i just referenced this thread in the other keto thread.]_ - Ketogenic diets are probably not where you want to go (especially long term, unless you have neurological issues).

Next, i will repeat "Get thee to a healthy Paleo diet, It is far more important than Ketosis, in fact, forget _[another edit, potty mouth]_ ketosis, moderate to low carb (but not very-low carb paleo- except for a few weeks to become fat-adapted))

Then i will go on to say *"This is what works for me, it will work for others but not everyone (for many reasons- It's not right for you, you aren't doing it properly, there are other factors that need addressing simultaneously/beforehand.... etc, etc"* 



InstantCoffee said:


> I would not recommend cycling in and out of ketosis, the body doesn't handle the transfer well for most people. Some people going on a fully ketogenic diet can takes weeks, to a month, where they're stuck in a pre-ketogenic state, their body isn't converting fats into energy like it should and they just end up feeling bad.


As i said in the last post, go keto for a month[1], become fat adapted and then reintroduce safe starches at a low level (and play around looking for your personal sweet spot.) Mix it up with low carb days so that you do not loose the 'fat adapted'-ness that you have achieved.

You will (probably)suffer from 'low-carb flu" initially - google it....

Once someone becomes 'fat adapted', that is, able to use fat as fuel, the 'cycling' in and out of ketosis is normal, healthy and easy[2]- many people would cycle into ketosis while asleep (unless they have a sugar IV line?).
If someone has been on a carb heavy diet for a while the body tends to 'forget' about producing ketones (which is just the liver turning fats (and some proteins) into fuel). It is a normal biological function [3]

Fat adapted and ketosis are NOT the same thing, a metabolically healthy person can use glucose AND ketones as required. Ketosis is a fast way of becoming Fat-Adapted, but like all 'fast' fixes there are dangers and pitfalls.
Just reducing carbs to a low level is enough to encourage "Fat-Adaptaed"-ness[2], without the drawbacks of ketosis (bad breath, low mucus production)



InstantCoffee said:


> I would also highly suggest an indigestible fiber supplement (0 calorie) if doing keto to ensure gut bacteria health while not eating carbs. Psyllium husks have been a godsend to me.
> 
> It can also help with bile-acid diarrhea that's a frequent problem for crohn's sufferers, especially eating a high fat diet like keto.


Yes, but be careful while in a bad place, can be an issue for people with digestive issues so start slow and build up.
As health improves tolerance will also improve...
 -on a TMI level, my shits have been WONDERFUL since i started adding psyllium.....

This hot dog roll is f#%king amazing, i make round buns and slice them thinly (horizontally) for sandwiches and burgers* and it is the bomb*
https://cleaversorganic.com.au/recipe/paleo-hotdogs-pete-evans/

[1]_"The bottom line is that fat adaptation to a low-carbohydrate diet can take at least 3 weeks. During that time, you might not feel quite as energetic as you would subsequently. And if someone tells you a low-carbohydrate diet won’t work based on studies lasting < 3 weeks, tell them you’re going to await higher quality, long-term research."_
https://medium.com/@davidludwigmd/adapting-to-fat-on-a-low-carb-diet-bfd0cd314e4e

[2]_"I’d even suggest that true fat-adaptation will allow someone to eat a higher carb meal or day without derailing the train. Once the fat-burning machinery has been established and programmed, you should be able to effortlessly switch between fuel sources as needed."_
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-fat-adapted/

[3]_"Glucose is not the preferred fuel of muscle cells under normal human resting metabolic conditions or even under most normal human movement patterns (exercise). Fat is. Sure, given an unlimited supply of glucose and regular refilling of glycogen stores, skeletal muscle will burn through it during exercise the same way a fire burns through kindling when that’s all you have to offer. The body can shift carbohydrate oxidation to keep up with intake. But skeletal muscle can burn fat with great efficiency (and far less oxidative fallout) at relatively high outputs for very long bouts. Cardiac muscle actually prefers ketones, and the brain can run just fine (maybe even optimally) on a blend of ketones and minimal glucose.  Our survival as a species has depended on these evolutionary adaptations away from glucose dependency."_
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-me...at-carbs-human-body-metabolism/#axzz1za02xNxp


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh, thanks for the reply. This link is particularly helpful.

I want to consume moderate to high levels of carbs, that's my aim.

I added green bananas to my diet again. I'm consuming both green bananas, and sweet potatoes as safe carb sources.

--- ---

I didn't know pumpkin is so poor in terms of, everything except vitamin A and potassium? Kind of interesting.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> hugh, thanks for the reply. This link is particularly helpful.
> 
> I want to consume moderate to high levels of carbs, that's my aim.
> 
> I added green bananas to my diet again. I'm consuming both green bananas, and sweet potatoes as safe carb sources.


More power to ya....
Not sure why but self experimentation is fun.
I am interested to know why.....
Seems that a few people feel that it's got to be either keto or high carb.... personally get best results on a lowish (but way more than keto) level.


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> Not sure why but self experimentation is fun.
> I am interested to know why.....


Agreed. Maybe because it's one of the very few ways to spend your time meaningfully? I think that may be an aspect of it. 
Another aspect is probably related to the Baconian dictum :"knowledge is power."
Yet another: Aristotle said "all men by nature desire to know." , so, fulfilling the desire to know. Sheer curiosity? 
Though I think many people wouldn't find self experimentation "fun".

--- ---

When I think about ketogenic diet, it sometimes makes me remember Paul Erdös (1913-1996), the famous Hungarian mathematician. The man took high doses of amphetamines and caffeines daily, nearly all his life. He had done this to increase his cerebral activity, and lived a long, extremely productive life.

If I didn't have Crohn's disease, and arthritis and some others, maybe I still wouldn't follow his approach; but I could consider going ketogenic. I think of ketosis as kind of like a natural "brain on amphetamine" state. That crystal clarity of mind (on ketosis) is amazingly beautiful.

I'm glad I saw your warnings about ketogenic diet being a wrong way to go for a Crohn's patient, especially the warning about the thinning of the mucousal lining. That's very serious for us.

Also, look: 





kiny said:


> You need your carbs for energy, you need them for protein synthesis, you need them to recover, there is a reason why every malnourished person that comes into ER is treated with glucose IV, you can not recover without them.


I think ketogenic diet is definitely doable if you don't have seriously debilitating diseases like Crohn's. But with Crohn's, it's not smart to go keto.

I'm on high carb because of it's convenience. High carb also helps me gain weight; which is something I want. I feel good on high carb, and that's important. High carb is fine, as long as you're eating real food. One thing I always avoid is "snacking" with carbs. I never do that; I always eat carbs with 200 grams of red meat.

If you find that lowish carb is convenient, makes you feel good, doesn't harm your health... then it's good.

--- ---

Note: DON'T take amphetamines; it'd most probably wreck your intestines, and make your Crohn's flare up. There are many anecdotal evidences for it. People with Crohn's should never take it.


----------



## Crohn2357

Being desperate is another impetus for self experimentation I guess.
You know, that hoping for a revelation which many of us have been through...


----------



## Crohn2357

I've been suffering from joint pains lately, and wondering if it's related to the sweet potatoes I eat every meal.



> the high oxalate content of sweet potatoes could potentially aggravate joint pain in susceptible people, so it may be wise not to over-do them.


From: What is a “Safe Starch”?


---- ----

Edit: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/01/what’s-the-trouble-with-sweet-potatoes/
https://www.paleohacks.com/muscle/sweet-potatoes-oxalate-problems-18316


----------



## InstantCoffee

I'm not sure this is accurate:


> You need your carbs for energy, you need them for protein synthesis, you need them to recover, there is a reason why every malnourished person that comes into ER is treated with glucose IV, you can not recover without them.


Ketogenic diets have been used as a weight management staple for many bodybuilders for a long time now. 
The whole point of the diet is that it removes you of the need for carbs to fulfill those purposes. 



> When looking specifically at protein synthesis, carbohydrates are not required. Leucine—found in egg yolks, for example—is an essential amino acid and is the primary driver of protein synthesis. That means protein synthesis can occur in the absence of carbohydrates...
> In a chronically low-carb environment, the body doesn't follow the normal biochemical rules because it has to change. It becomes much more efficient with muscle glycogen, it up-regulates gene expression of certain enzymatic machinery needed for maximum performance, and it adapts as needed to excel in the presence of far fewer carbohydrates and much less insulin.


The biggest complications that I worry about are those regarding the balance of gut bacteria in response to a high fat, low fiber diet. 

Even with fiber supplements you're likely to be on a high intake of saturated fats and this could result in a bad balance of gut bacteria.

Could being the key word. 

High carb intake could do the same if it's being cleaved into glucose by certain pathogenic bacteria like klebsiella, in which case keto is the safer of the two. 

It's a really complicated issue when you get into gut bacteria.

There's also some speculation on the inflammatory properties of high fat diets - but again this may be a high-fat-high-carb diet and the conversion to keto on a fat-only diet changes that behavior.

Speak of the devil.
This might be the answer haha

http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=81646


> “The finding is remarkable because it means that a Crohn’s patient could also have a beneficial effect on their gut bacteria and inflammation by only switching the type of fat in their diet,” said Alexander Rodriguez-Palacios, DVM, DVSc, PhD, first author on the study and Assistant Professor of Medicine at Case Western Reserve University. “Patients would only need to replace a ‘bad’ fat with a ‘good’ fat, and eat normal amounts.”


----------



## Crohn2357

I don't  have enough knowledge about the relevance of carbs on protein synthesis; but the post you quoted (kiny's post) is originally a reply to SCD diet (which doesn't target ketosis); not to ketogenic diet.

In regards to the gastrointestinal microbiota composition, and the effects of diet on it, I just don't go into that discussion. As I said earlier; current knowledge on this subject is very poor, and everything we would say would feel like a mere speculation to me.

Unless I show some actual symptoms (of, say SIBO, or yeast overgrowth, or microbial infections...) of that kind of problem; I'll not interfere with my GI microbiota through diet, pro-prebiotics, supplements etc. 

Altering GI microbiota in Ulcerative Colitis seems to have robust beneficial effects; but I don't think it's true for Crohn's Disease in general.

Maybe hugh will give a different perspective; though I haven't seen him around for a while. I hope the old man is doing fine.


----------



## hugh

_Crohn2357
“I've been suffering from joint pains lately, and wondering if it's related to the sweet potatoes I eat every meal.”_

So many things can be implicated in joint pain, for me it was mainly potatoes
Can you eat different carbs for a month (and not change anything else?)

_Instant....
“The biggest complications that I worry about are those regarding the balance of gut bacteria in response to a high fat, low fiber diet.”_

If you have crohns then the balance is out anyway.
A high fat (and low carb) diet will reduce gut bacteria and reduce symptoms (caused by your immune system attacking the bacteria and having a war on your mucosal lining. 
Then reintroducing “safe” carbs at a later date (once things have settled down, slowly, along with appropriate amounts of paleo fibre and as part of a 'balanced' paleo-template diet, if done well and the gods are smiling) will raise the level of good bacteria.

_“It's a really complicated issue when you get into gut bacteria.”_

Yes it is, and a lot of effort is made to try and keep it that complicated, 

-But it is also pretty simple
*“Feed them and they will come”*
-the bacteria in your(my/ones, etc.) gut are the ones that do well on what you eat.
-there's' a lot of shit happening down there, avoid radical changes (but give up wheat (anyone who hasn't)).
-eat the food that supports the bacteria you are supposed to have, and don't eat foods that fuck it up
-It's not just food, -Alcohol, NSAIDS, stress, antibiotics, sleep.
Try to move things in that direction whenever and where-ever you can, bit by bit
-But food is the big one....

and this, i had to have a nap halfway through writing it. ("old man"?)

_““The finding is remarkable because it means that a Crohn’s patient could also have a beneficial effect on their gut bacteria and inflammation by only switching the type of fat in their diet,” said Alexander Rodriguez-Palacios, DVM, DVSc, PhD, first author on the study and Assistant Professor of Medicine at Case Western Reserve University. “Patients would only need to replace a ‘bad’ fat with a ‘good’ fat, and eat normal amounts.” _

_[best sheldon voice]_
 “Jimminy Cricket, those confounded science journalists are trying to bury the truth under the 'official message' – That really gets my gander up”

cant find the original paper/presentation, but every instance of reporting that I have found has been deliberate mis-reporting the results to keep people eating the soylent green...

_“Patients would only need to replace a ‘bad’ fat with a ‘good’ fat, and eat normal amounts.” 
http://casemed.case.edu/cwrumed360/news-releases/release.cfm?news_id=666_
-and we know saturated fats are bad and vegetable seed oils are good, right? Cause that’s what we have been told, but wait... That was cocoa butter and coconut oil? Saturated fats

lets dig in....
_“In the new study, a diet of plant-derived “good” fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter, drastically reduced bacterial diversity in mice with Crohn’s-like disease.”_

Wow, plant-derived ‘good’ fats, [y'know, like plant-based diet, and healthy fats, y'know, not those ones that kill ya]

but later....
_"Mice fed even low concentrations of coconut oil or cocoa butter also had less severe small intestine inflammation.”_
Sooo, does that mean..
-"Mice fed even [only] low concentrations of coconut oil or cocoa butter also had less severe small intestine inflammation.”,

or does it mean....
"Mice fed even low concentrations of coconut oil or cocoa butter [and the other “plant-derived “good” fats"- that shall forever remain nameless(?)] also had less severe small intestine inflammation”.

“Patients would only need to replace a ‘bad’ fat with a ‘good’ fat, and eat normal amounts.”
yeah, ‘bad’ fats, heart disease, cholesterol, saturated fat, 60 years of propaganda.......
yeah ‘good’ fats, heart healthy, plant derived, planet destroying monoculture,
oh, but....
eat cocoa butter and coconut oil,
what about the omega-6 pro-inflammatory vegetable seed oils?
hmmm, could’a been a bit clearer?


let’s try this one......
_"In the new study, a diet of plant-derived "good" fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter, drastically reduced bacterial diversity in mice with Crohn's-like disease. “_
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170622121911.htm

“good fat, bad fat”, got it, “plant-derived”, got it,
don’t need to to read anymore

“a diet of plant-derived "good" fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter, “
yes, good fats and surprisingly, coconut and cocoa, got it

_"Patients would only need to replace a 'bad' fat with a 'good' fat, and eat normal amounts."_
right, got the message

and the last line, love it....
_“The trick now is to really discover what makes a fat 'good' or 'bad' for Crohn's disease."_

because it’s complicated, remember......

i haven’t given up, lets try this.......
_“A high-fat diet may cause changes to gut bacteria that could fight harmful inflammation, according to new research presented at Digestive Disease Week.”_
https://www.mdlinx.com/gastroenterology/article/917

ohhhh, do tell.....
_
“Findings shows that a diet of plant-derived fats, such as coconut oil or cocoa butter, markedly reduced bacterial diversity in mice with a disease process similar to Crohn’s. “_

so waaaaaait a minute, here’s a good time to ask.....
Has anyone anywhere seen what they did in the study?

-Were they adding fat and eating less carbs? 
or 
-did they replace the “bad fats” (butter? animal fat?) that they were eating with “plant-derived "good" fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter."?
or 
-did they replace the “good fats” that they were eating with “plant-derived "good" fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter."?
or
-did they just add “plant-derived "good" fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter."?

_[read next line like that scene in FBDO] [1]_
anyone?anyone?anyone

Putting all that aside, obviously wasn’t important.....

my rant.....
plant-derived, yup, reduced diversity? you mean less is good when they are fucking you up inside???????, who’da thunk?, 
ok , got it
“plant-derived "good" fats, including......”
check
“reduced activity”
wow, fat did that?
- less carbs? different fat? more fat?

_““Ongoing studies are now helping us to understand which component of the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ fats make the difference in the gut microbes and make mice healthier,” Dr. Rodriguez-Palacios said. “Ultimately, we aim to identify the ‘good’ fat-loving microbes for testing as probiotics.”
_

ohhh, tooo long, lets edit that....
““Ongoing studies are now helping us to [understand which component of the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ fats make the difference in the gut microbes and make mice healthier,” Dr. Rodriguez-Palacios said. “Ultimately, we aim to] identify the ‘good’ fat-loving microbes for testing as probiotics.”

et voila
““Ongoing studies are now helping us to identify the ‘good’ fat-loving microbes for testing as probiotics.”

and right at the end...
_“but diet is something we are very hopeful could help at least some patients without the side-effects and risks carried by drugs. The trick now is to really discover what makes a fat ‘good’ or ‘bad’ for Crohn’s disease.”_

wow, “at least some”? hardly worth looking at diet then is, lets have a cure.... 
ohhh wait, it’s a treatment? how long do i have to take this for? what? forever? how am i going to pay for that?

I’d almost given up,
 but then i found some hippy-dippy ‘organic’ not-scientific crowd


*“Coconut Oil Breakthrough For Crohn's Disease"*
_"Good fats can bring about positive changes in your gut bacteria, decreasing the symptoms of this debilitating, long-term condition. One caveat, though, is that the fat must be derived from plants"_
http://www.organicandhealthy.org/2017/07/coconut-oil-breakthrough-for-crohns.html
whose link for “good” fats takes me to mercola, check it out....

heck.... *“One caveat, though, is that the fat must be derived from plants”*, hell, *must be* plant derived!!!! 
dalek noises in head....  “ca-ve-at, ca-ve-at, ca-ve-at...”

_"Scientists used animal models (mice), which were given two different diets. One group was fed “good” fats, such as coconut oil and cocoa butter. The other group was given a “normal” diet.”_
ahh, normal diet? sad mouse diet? healthy mouse diet?
whatever

_“Mice fed beneficial fatty diets had up to [30] percent fewer kinds of gut bacteria as those fed a normal diet, collectively resulting in a very different gut microbial composition … Mice fed even low concentrations of coconut oil or cocoa butter also had less severe small intestine inflammation.”_
same words, same lack of clarity

_“Rodriguez-Palacios noted that all (human) patients need to do to glean similar effects in their bodies is to “replace a 'bad' fat with a 'good' fat, and eat normal amounts”_
[exhausted tantrum] “but howwwwww?, it’s so difficult, please, tell me howwwwww.........”

_“interestingly, a portion at the opening of the intestine, called the cecum, is where Crohn’s disease typically causes the most inflammation, and that was an area positively impacted by coconut oil on the subjects in the study.”_

what, coconut oil? not “plant-derived “good” fats inluding coconut oil”,
what the hell are “plant-derived “good” fats” then?

_“Rodriguez-Palacios said he believes the findings could help doctors identify beneficial bacteria that could treat patients with ongoing inflammatory bowel disorders and said the next move will be to identify which components in said good and bad fats make the difference in gut microbes”_

checkmate......
or as i misquoted earlier.....
““Ongoing studies are now helping us to identify the ‘good’ fat-loving microbes for testing as probiotics.”

and, farkinell, it takes a while to get to this......
*"Besides the coconut oil and cocoa butter used in the study as good fats, scientists also used other delicious sources of good fats such as avocados, nuts (particularly macadamias, pecans and walnuts), salmon (and note that wild-caught Alaskan salmon is the healthiest variety) and extra-virgin olive oil.”*

Read that list, are they shitting me?, that’s all real food, ZERO  ‘plant-derived corporate waste product’ in that list.

I’ll have the “plant-derived” wild alaskan salmon, thanks......


[1] http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/FBDO


----------



## Crohn2357

I stopped eating sweet potatoes, and replaced it with green bananas and within 2 days I became much better. Now I don't have any arthritic pain. The sweet potatoes were causing the problem; though I should say, I had been eating a kilogram of them every day for, more than a month.

----- -----

Guys, I suggest you to read this article. It's impressive, and quite surprising (to me).



> Researchers are still figuring out exactly why that happens, but possible explanations are the tendency for high-saturated-fat diets to increase the abundance of gram-negative bacteria in the gut (the type of bacteria with endotoxin-containing membranes, an example being E. coli), and for saturated fat to increase the transport of endotoxins via lipid rafts. (But, it looks like there might be ways to offset the endotoxemic effect from saturated fat: at least in rodents, the addition of prebiotics (like oligofructose) lowers the endotoxin response to saturated fat, and certain fibers and phytochemicals appear to do the same! Woot for yet another imperative for consuming veggies with our meat!)


----------



## hugh

Don't eat too much saturated fat, don't eat too little saturated fat...  

Good advice, but applies to everything else too


----------



## Crohn2357

Then we have the solution to _everything_ in diet when it comes to quantity?


Don't eat too much egg, don't eat too little. "Two eggs in a week is a good quantity, considering your age and cholesterol levels." 

"Don't eat too much bread, it will make you fat; but be sure to eat some amount of whole bread, you need to eat bread every day to maintain your energy, and to get vitamins..."

Sounds any familiar?


Don't eat too much olives? I don't think olives would hurt someone (if there is no sensitivity/allergy) if eaten too much.


If only we could know how much is too much, and how little is too little for anything.


Edit:

The tables used in the article were interesting I think, especially the one about the Eskimo diet.

And this, was the most surprising to me:


> Even though most contemporarily-studied hunter-gatherers get more than half of their calories from animal foods and as much as 58% of their calories from fat, the average caloric intake from saturated fat among these populations is only 13% (modal range is 10-15%).
> 
> Surprised? The fat in wild game meat is much lower in saturated fat than industrially-produced (grain-fed) meat in addition to being lower fat overall (in fact, depending on the source, the fat can be up to about 50% monounsaturated and 30% polyunsaturated, compared with about 50% saturated in some fats from grain-fed animals).


----------



## hugh

"Nothing in medicine makes sense, except in the light of evolution"


----------



## hugh

The last lines from that post you like....
_"It we stick to a Paleo diet rich in phytochemical-rich plant foods (especially vegetables), adequate fiber and prebiotics to support gut health, and reasonable quantities of high-quality meat, seafood, and eggs, we stand the best shot at boosting our health and averting disease!"_
https://www.thepaleomom.com/saturated-fat-healthful-harmful-or-somewhere-in-between/

Moderation in real foods that you tolerate, avoidance of all fake foods and of real foods that you don't tolerate


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh, you said in this thread that you eat "lowish" carb paleo. 

I've always had problems with low blood pressure (95/60), and it gets worse after I eat a meal. It's always related to the amount and type of the carbs I consume when my low bp is related to meals... 

"Hypotension after meals is a common cause of dizziness and falls after eating. This is most common after large meals containing a lot of carbohydrates. It’s believed to be caused by blood pooling into the vessels of the stomach and intestines."
http://www.webmd.com/heart/understanding-low-blood-pressure-basics#2

I've been eating 150 gr carbs in a day. I'm thinking about cutting it to half, what do you think about that? How much carbs do you consume in a day?
How do you keep your weight up? Eating more meat? more veggies? more fat?

Edit: Do you know any good article(s) about cholesterol? I want to read more about it.
I would listen to podcasts too (if you know any), but prefer a deep, balanced, lengthy article.


I also wonder, what is your personal stance on the cholesterol debate? I'd like to read it very much. Do you care about the amount of cholesterol you eat?

-- --- --

Some links:
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03/low-carb-paleo-and-ldl-is-soaring-–-help/
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03/answer-day-what-causes-high-ldl-on-low-carb-paleo/
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/cholesterol/


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> hugh, you said in this thread that you eat "lowish" carb paleo.


i was low carb paleo but relaxed it when i tried 'perfect health diet'.
Now? low by SAD standards but i eat 'safe' carbs without much thought nowadays.
Every now and then i go keto or VLC just to shake it up.



Crohn2357 said:


> I've always had problems with low blood pressure (95/60), and it gets worse after I eat a meal. It's always related to the amount and type of the carbs I consume when my low bp is related to meals...


I used to have "Orthostatic hypotension" at times but never really cared that much (low on the list of troubles).
Good that you have noticed the triggers and can hence avoid them. 
Another reason to avoid high carb!!!!!



Crohn2357 said:


> I've been eating 150 gr carbs in a day. I'm thinking about cutting it to half, what do you think about that? How much carbs do you consume in a day?


I no longer measure at all, but i do vary it from lots to very little just for fun 9and to stay 'fat-adapted'
Most of the paleo gurus are upping there carb recommendations bit by bit
Rob wolf is big on how "different carbs affect different people differently" at the moment.
Keeps referencing a study where people at the same carbs and had opposite blood sugar spikes (some spiked on bananas but not on cookies, others spiked on cookies and not bananas.)[1]
he now recommends a 7 day carb challenge- haven’t looked into it but basically, after the 30 day paleo reset you do a different carb every day and see which ones make your blood sugars spike and avoid them.

Both he and Primal guy recommend 100- 125 grams a day but stress that it all depends on who you are and what you are doing.

concentrate on what carbs don't cause hypotension, and TITRATE (move slowly) rather than jump around.




Crohn2357 said:


> How do you keep your weight up? Eating more meat? more veggies? more fat?


From my sickest, i put on 12kg just by giving up carbs (probably mainly wheat).
It is NOT about how much you eat, it is about how much you digest.
Titrate your carbs down a bit and your fat up a bit and if you loose weight then go back



Crohn2357 said:


> Edit: Do you know any good article(s) about cholesterol? I want to read more about it.
> I would listen to podcasts too (if you know any), but prefer a deep, balanced, lengthy article.


Cant go past chris masterjohn
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/
Chris Masterjohn on cholesterol & heart disease (Part 1)
https://chriskresser.com/the-healthy-skeptic-podcast-episode-11/
Chris Masterjohn on cholesterol & heart disease (part 2)
https://chriskresser.com/episode-16-chris-masterjohn-on-cholesterol-heart-disease-part-2/
RHR: Chris Masterjohn on Cholesterol and Heart Disease (Part 3)
https://chriskresser.com/chris-masterjohn-on-cholesterol-and-heart-disease-part-3/




Crohn2357 said:


> I also wonder, what is your personal stance on the cholesterol debate? I'd like to read it very much. Do you care about the amount of cholesterol you eat?


It's a u-shaped curve, 
too high = higher mortality,
too low = higher mortality....
Eat as much as i want all the time.
High SDLDL  (small dense LDL) is dangerouds but why Small and dense - listen to chris talk to chris


[1] sorry its from this turd rag, but you get the idea
*take test to find out which carbs they can eat safely and which they should avoid*
https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/318...y-can-eat-safely-and-which-they-should-avoid/


----------



## hugh

you might like this one too, let me know...
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/07/17/methylate-way-mental-health-dopamine/


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## Crohn2357

Thanks for replying. I will look into the links.

--- --- --- --- ---

Fuck it, if nothing's going to work, I will go ketogenic... 

Just to see if it's going to work or not. I'm sick of this relentless fatigue, low bp, not being able to consume carbs etc...

The problem is (apart from all the known and discussed issues with ketogenic diet): the only fat for me to eat is tail fat. It's similar to lard, and it's high in cholesterol.
I can't find MCT oil or coconut oil in this country, so this is my only fat source. I can't eat butter or ghee (casein problems) so they're not an option.

Since (if I ever do it) this is going to be a short term "trial" for me, I don't think the amount of cholesterol will kill me.

I'm listening to the last podcast you posted, after this I'll move on to the cholesterol article and podcasts.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> Thanks for replying. I will look into the links.
> Fuck it, if nothing's going to work, I will go ketogenic...
> 
> Just to see if it's going to work or not. I'm sick of this relentless fatigue, low bp, not being able to consume carbs etc...
> 
> The problem is (apart from all the known and discussed issues with ketogenic diet): the only fat for me to eat is tail fat. It's similar to lard, and it's high in cholesterol.
> I can't find MCT oil or coconut oil in this country, so this is my only fat source. I can't eat butter or ghee (casein problems) so they're not an option.
> 
> Since (if I ever do it) this is going to be a short term "trial" for me, I don't think the amount of cholesterol will kill me.
> 
> I'm listening to the last podcast you posted, after this I'll move on to the cholesterol article and podcasts.


Funny that, tail fat....
i get sheep fat and render it to cook with.
lots and lots of sheep fat , and lots of coconut fat......

going keto for a while is probably a good thing. It is long term that can be the problem.
Keep in mind some people find LDL goes way up on a low carb diet so it is a concern, but not a biggie.
Educate yourself and you won't be frightened...
_"Since cholesterol is usually discussed in the context of disease and atherosclerosis, let us look at the blood vessels. Their inside walls are covered by a layer of cells called the endothelium. Any damaging agent we are exposed to will finish up in our bloodstream, whether it is a toxic chemical, an infectious organism, a free radical or anything else. Once such an agent is in the blood, what is it going to attack first? The endothelium, of course. The endothelium immediately sends a message to the liver. Whenever our liver receives a signal that a wound has been inflicted upon the endothelium somewhere in our vascular system, it gets into gear and sends cholesterol to the site of the damage in a shuttle, called LDL-cholesterol. Because this cholesterol travels from the liver to the wound in the form of LDL, our “science,” in its wisdom calls LDL “bad” cholesterol. When the wound heals and the cholesterol is removed, it travels back to the liver in the form of HDLcholesterol (high-density lipoprotein cholesterol). Because this cholesterol travels away from the artery back to the liver, our misguided “science” calls it “good” cholesterol. This is like calling an ambulance travelling from the hospital to the patient a “bad ambulance,” and the one travelling from the patient back to the hospital a “good ambulance.” "_
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/know-your-fats/cholesterol-friend-or-foe/

one of my doctors tried to force me onto statins because of my total cholesterol numbers, fucking brainwashed idiot.
a bit of research and i work out that i an at the absolute lowest all-cause mortality point in this graph.....
https://renegadewellness.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/cholesterol-mortality-chart.pdf
I know i could find a website telling you the earth is flat if i looked, so make up your own mind, but start with the chris masterjohn podcasts because he knows his shit....


more
CHOLESTEROL AND ALL-CAUSE MORTALITY
"*Without exception all-cause mortality is highest in those with the lowest levels of TC.*"
http://vernerwheelock.com/179-cholesterol-and-all-cause-mortality/

People with high cholesterol live the longest
" At least fifteen studies found that total mortality was inversely associated with either total or LDL-cholesterol, or both. This means that it is actually much better to have high than to have low cholesterol if you want to live to be very old."
http://www.ravnskov.nu/2015/12/27/myth-9/


----------



## Crohn2357

I listened to all the podcasts. The one about methylation is interesting but the podcast is a bit verbose for my taste. 

I had planned to make my doctor check if I have MTHFR (I always read this one differently, lol) gene mutation or not, also my homocysteine and serum folate levels. Those are definitely important.

I'll also tell him to check my adrenal gland secretions (like adrenaline, noradrenaline, cortisol and DHEA) because they too can cause low blood pressure.

The cholesterol podcasts are absolutely amazing! I took notes of them while listening. 
I downloaded them to be able to listen in the future.

I'll print out all the articles (can't read long articles on the PC screen thanks to chronic migraines...) to read them later. Those are valuable, thanks for posting...

I'll either go full ketogenic or very low carb paleo (I'll try this one first). I'll post an update in the future.

Edit: The amount of saturated fat you consume surprised me, I guess you really believe in what you're doing. This gives me some more confidence in consuming them.

To avoid oxidizing those fats, you may try microwaving your food. That's how I mostly cook my meals. I even slice the tail fat and put those thin slices onto meatballs. This way the tail fat cooks nicely but still keeps its solid form - and not get oxidized.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> To avoid oxidizing those fats, you may try microwaving your food. That's how I mostly cook my meals. I even slice the tail fat and put those thin slices onto meatballs. This way the tail fat cooks nicely but still keeps its solid form - and not get oxidized.


Im no expert but i always believed that the good thing about saturated fats is that they can stand high heat.
Saturated fats don't start to oxidise until you get to their smoke point.

How to Eat More Fat
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-eat-more-fat/
The Definitive Guide to Fats
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fats/
The Definitive Guide to Oils
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/healthy-oils/

polyunsaturated fats oxidise easily. (like vegetable seed oils)
_"Polyunsaturated fatty acids contain two or more double bonds, and it is these double bonds which are prone to oxidation. Consequently, the risk of oxidation increases with the number of double bonds present in the fatty acid"_
http://www.1life63.com/en/omega-in-your-body-oxidation-of-lipids/oxidation-of-lipids


----------



## Crohn2357

Double post.


----------



## Crohn2357

*Low carb paleo, not getting enough dietary salt, low blood pressure...*

hugh, I think today I found out the reason why I've been suffering from low bp and its negative effects :

Ready?


It's the paleo diet.

Yes. 



> . A recent CDC report indicates that the top 10 types of food that contribute the most sodium to the American diet include bread and rolls, pizza, sandwiches, pasta mixed dishes, meat mixed dishes, and savory snacks. All things you won't eat if you go paleo(ish). Yes, there are some higher sodium paleo foods like cold cuts, cured meats, and cheeses. But avoiding bread alone is going to drop your sodium intake substantially! Take out processed fast food and snack foods and it drops even further. As long as you're not eating an everyday diet of bacon for breakfast, cold cuts for lunch and thai curries for dinner, you're probably OK.


From: http://freshhabits.blogspot.com/2012/03/why-low-sodium-paleo.html 

The results of that report:


> Results
> Mean daily sodium consumption was 3,266 mg. Approximately 44% of sodium consumption came from foods in the following 10 categories: bread and rolls (7.4%), cold cuts/cured meats (5.1%), pizza (4.9%), fresh and processed poultry (4.5%), soups (4.3%), sandwiches like cheeseburgers (4.0%),†† cheese (3.8%), pasta mixed dishes (e.g., spaghetti with meat sauce) (3.3%), meat mixed dishes (e.g., meat loaf with tomato sauce) (3.2%), and savory snacks (e.g., chips and pretzels) (3.1%) (Table 1). Whether analyzed by age group, sex, or racial-ethnic population, the five leading food categories contributing to sodium consumption almost always were among the top 10 ranked categories (Table 1 and Table 2). Exceptions included frankfurters and sausages, which were the third highest contributor among children aged 2–5 years (5.4% of sodium consumption) and the fifth highest among non-Hispanic blacks (5.0%). Among Mexican-Americans, burritos, tacos, and tamales were the top contributor (6.8%), and tortillas were the fifth contributor (4.7%).
> Most sodium consumed (65.2%) came from foods obtained from a store (e.g., supermarket or convenience store). Restaurants were the source of 24.8% of the sodium consumed, including 13.6% from restaurants with fast food/pizza and 11.2% from restaurants with service by a waiter/waitress. The remaining 10.0% was from other specific sources (Table 3). Among children aged 2–19 years, 8.1% of sodium consumed came from foods obtained from school cafeterias or child care centers. Among both persons aged 2–19 years and ≥20 years, mean sodium density was significantly greater for foods and beverages obtained from fast food/pizza or other restaurants versus stores (Table 3).
> A large percentage of participants ate foods from one or more of the 10 ranked food categories during at least one of the two 24-hour dietary recall days; 79.9% reported eating bread and rolls, 56.2% ate cheese, 50.7% ate savory snacks, and 48.3% ate poultry (Table 4). Among the other six food categories, the percentage that ate foods from those ranged from 17.6% to 33.9%. Among food sources, fast food/pizza restaurants accounted for 51.2% of the sodium consumed from pizza, 26.6% from poultry, and 84.5% from sandwiches.


Wanna read more?
https://www.theguardian.com/science...uproar-as-scientist-urges-us-to-eat-more-salt
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/03/o...know-the-truth-about-salt.html?pagewanted=all 
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/its-time-to-end-the-war-on-salt/ 

https://chriskresser.com/shaking-up-the-salt-myth-the-dangers-of-salt-restriction/


> In short, there is a healthy range of salt consumption for most people. When eating a whole foods diet, most people tend to consume an appropriate amount of salt simply due to an innate preference for saltiness. In fact, the consumption of salt around the world for over two centuries has remained in the range of 1.5 to three teaspoons per day, which appears to hold the lowest risk for disease.



More...
http://forum.whole30.com/topic/10367-low-blood-pressure/ 

“Add salt! Seriously. Sea salt. Be liberal.
I had the same thing a few months ago when I was knee-deep in Paleo eating. Eliminating processed foods greatly reduces the amount of salt we eat, and I was never a person to salt my food prior to eating it.
My BP is naturally low. I hover around 90/60, mostly without symptoms, for as long as I can recall. My resting heart rate has gotten as low as 44 in bed (I am a long term cardio person). I just happened to be at the doctor's office for another issue one of the days I wasn't feeling well, and my BP was about 80/50 with heart rate 52 (that was up and walking around). I felt shaky and shocky.
Salt doesn't immediately help, but it didn't take long to make a difference.”

“I also have low blood pressure and to avoid these side effects, I've found the single most helpful thing was to add sea salt to every meal. I also keep packets of electrolytes (I useEmergency's electromix) on me.”

“Agree with Tom and Pam. Salt is hugely important if you're coming off from eating processed food a month ago.
I've had low bp in the past and felt quite light-headed.
Upping the salt and starches has helped a lot.
I take a good sized pinch of salt every night before bed.
Hope you feel better soon.”

https://paleoleap.com/salt-and-a-paleo-diet/ 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comments/153t74/watch_your_sodium_that_is_all/



> Before I started reading at all about health (much before paleo) I cut down dramatically on my salt. It made my fatigue issues so much worse. Adding salt back in gave me a boost of energy, and it made it easier to think.





> Oh yeah, another thing, after fat, that media and doctors try to bash with everything they have. If you eat clean, meaning you cook for yourself, no fast food, you are probably short on sodium by large margin.


https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comments/v6jgx/salt_we_misjudged_you_gary_taubes/ 



> Im a liberal douser of salt onto boiled greens and always justified it by eating a lot less processed food which are huge carriers of salt. People i eat with always tell me i eat too much salt but my blood pressure is always good.
> I suspect people who dont add salt get a lot of salt from processed foods which they dont know about.
> Anyway, interesting article.


https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comments/1xinup/salt_sugar_and_potatoes/ 



> By avoiding processed foods, you avoid salt. However, you need salt and your body will horde it if you don't get enough. Your urine and tears will stop being salty (which decreases lubrication) and you will feel lousy (and go eat straight salt and feel amazing the next day like I did). It's a bad idea to not add salt. So no, don't avoid salt. It's a myth that less is better (I've tested it and you can too if you want). Your body will self-regulate.


https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comments/1eikc9/eating_too_little_salt_might_increase_risk_of/ 


> This has nothing to do with Paleo. We still salt our foods, we just don't get an insane amount from processed junk. Durp.


https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comments/fgms8/does_the_paleo_diet_permit_salt_if_no_how_do/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comments/1edkdi/can_eating_too_little_salt_be_harmful_this_is/ 



> This is a good thread. I never add salt to food, because I just plain up forget. My blood pressure has been realllyy loww lately. I'm literally snacking on salt right now.





> I once read somewhere that someone following the SAD gets only 10% of their sodium intake from whatever comes out of a salt shaker, and the rest comes from processed and/or prepackaged foods.
> Since I no longer eat any processed/prepackaged foods (very few exceptions such as bacon, canned coconut milk, carton almond milk, and home-made cured meats), I've become very liberal with my Himalayan-salt-filled salt shaker.
> So don't be afraid of the salt! =)
> Edit: I wrote this reply before OP edited the links into his post, but I still stand behind what I say.





> A few years ago my mother started getting these weird seizures, at first the doctors had no idea what was causing it. After multiple incidents(one seizure happened when she was driving, and she ended up in the ditch(unharmed)) and a week long hospitalization, they finally figured out that she didnt eat enough salt. She didnt eat paleo, but her diet wasnt bad either, she didnt eat a lot of processed foods, sugar, fried foods or refined grains, and ate plenty of vegetables, fruits, meat, fish, whole grains, basically paleo+whole grains. The only thing she had to change was to add salt to every meal, now its been 5 years without any seizures.





> I know I have trouble with my salt intake and feel super lethargic and just blah when my sodium is to low. I fix this buy dipping cucumber slices in garlic salt. Yum Yum. Super salty but it solves the problem for me.


----------------------------- ----------------------------- -----------------------------

I think I made the point somewhat clear, ha?

I thought I've been getting enough salt from my diet; but apparently I was wrong. When I think about all the foods I've stopped eating after going AIP, it makes perfect sense.

I experimented with eating more salt today. The result seems good. My bp is increased (I've a bp monitor in my house) and I feel better. 

I feel hopeful with this...

I've quoted so many things in this post, because there may be other paleo followers that have the same problem, and this post may help some of them.


----------



## hugh

Could be, could well be.
It isn't on my radar because I've always been a natural sea salt person and when I went paleo i was already eating almost zero processed foods, and only organic beards (and pastries).
My salt intake didn't drop by going paleo.

So, slowly take salt up and see what happens.


----------



## Crohn2357

Ok, I'll post an update in the future.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> Edit: The amount of saturated fat you consume surprised me, I guess you really believe in what you're doing. This gives me some more confidence in consuming them.


worth a read, bit on the angry side....

Why Coconut Oil is Better than Vegetable Oil

"_........In fact, the AHA executive leading the charge against coconut oil is the same guy that used to run marketing for Kentucky Fried Chicken and other fast-food chains......._"
https://blog.bulletproof.com/why-coconut-oil-is-better-than-vegetable-oil/#ref-2


----------



## Crohn2357

I've been doing a somewhat extensive calculation on the carbohydrate compositions and energy values of various "safe carb" sources I've eaten so far, based on each of their different effects on my health on different quantities in different times. To find out how much carbohydrate I should consume.

Going low carb, for my case, was a wrong move. Due to my extremely restricted diet, I don't have enough fat sources to consume, so it's not really possible for me to reach ketosis. What happens in my case is that instead of using fat, my body uses protein as the primary energy source. It's a common pitfall in keto diets; but in my case it's more or less inevitable. I need carbs to be my main source of energy, this much is clear to me.

I found out that I need to eat around 200 grams of carbs in a day, in order to increase my blood pressure (this is my hypothesis; but it's well known that low carb diets lower blood pressure through different mechanisms), my energy, and my weight.

This quantity is compatible with the suggestions of the leading paleo websites.

I should be getting 900 calories from the carbs I eat.

I had reduced my carb intake in the first place because it worsened the problems associated with low blood pressure for me. It's because when one eats a meal, large volumes of blood goes directly to the GI system, and this, in turn increases the severity of the low bp problems. It doesn't cause a problem if your blood pressure is not low; it's when it's low that it causes problems...

Now, what I'm going to do:
1- Eat more salt consistently.
2- Drink even more water.
3- Eat more carbs (around 200 grams in a day)

Let's see what's going to happen.


----------



## Crohn2357

Feeling better since yesterday. Increasing the salt intake gave me a much longer duration of the feeling of fullness. I also urinate more, and have more energy - though not quite the quality I want it to be yet... I'll wait patiently.

hugh, do you monitor your blood pressure? If so, how's it?

Another question: do you feel exhausted after eating white rice? Heart palpitations? Even a little, distinct from your experiences with the other carbs?

I hypothesized that my reaction to white rice in particular may be related to its high glycemic index. Not sure, but I don't have any other explanation.  

Another thing: Whenever I eat chicken, I get extremely sleepy. I've read that it's the L-tryptophan in the chickens that causes this issue. I promised myself to never eat chicken again haha... It has such a powerful effect. A curious thing.

Edit: I wonder if there is any way to counter this effect of rice? 

Maybe the exhaustive effects of eating rice has always been related to my low blood pressure. Maybe, now that I'm eating more salt, I will handle it better. I'll have to try it out.


----------



## hugh

blood pressure fine at regular dr. visits....
I'm fine with rice, but don't eat a lot of it (have large amount and then none for a week...)

So, i'm guessing the problem isn't the glycemic index, it's the glycemic load (GI x quantity)

Smaller amounts of rice with more fat will buffer absorption.

If it were me i would try...
- rice dishes where the rice is fried in fat/oil before adding water (pilau, risotto, etc)
- smaller amounts and eat with fatty lamb,

might help, might not.....

this is interesting, (not really related but interesting) it's doing the rounds at the moment..
- cooking rice and refrigerating increases the amount of resistant starch which is a good thing, but apparently this goes even further, decreasing GI and upping RS even further.....
might work with other fats, but still needs refrigeration to turn to RS
*Simple cooking changes make healthier rice*
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/simple-cooking-changes-make-healthier-rice/8386.article
*Scientists Discover a Simple Way to Cook Rice That Could Halve The Calories *
https://www.sciencealert.com/scient...ay-to-cook-rice-that-could-halve-the-calories


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> Smaller amounts of rice with more fat will buffer absorption.
> 
> If it were me i would try...
> - rice dishes where the rice is fried in fat/oil before adding water (pilau, risotto, etc)
> - smaller amounts and eat with fatty lamb,


I've tried these, no help. 



hugh said:


> this is interesting, (not really related but interesting) it's doing the rounds at the moment..
> - cooking rice and refrigerating increases the amount of resistant starch which is a good thing, but apparently this goes even further, decreasing GI and upping RS even further.....
> might work with other fats, but still needs refrigeration to turn to RS
> Simple cooking changes make healthier rice
> https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/...e/8386.article
> Scientists Discover a Simple Way to Cook Rice That Could Halve The Calories
> https://www.sciencealert.com/scienti...e-the-calories



yeah, that's interesting I'll keep in mind.

I think I may have found another cause for my low blood pressure. 

I've been taking propolis tincture for more than a year now. I've suspected it might be causing this issue, and turns out that it really has that kind of effect.

http://thenaturalshopper.com/resources/propolis/propolis-for-high-blood-pressure.html 

https://www.honeycolony.com/article/top-10-health-benefits-of-propolis/ 

“2. Propolis Lowers Blood Pressure
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22471835  [Role of propolis on tyrosine hydroxylase activity and blood pressure in nitric oxide synthase-inhibited hypertensive rats.]
Nitric oxide is a very important substance for healthy hearts.
The inner lining of your blood vessels use nitric oxide to signal the surrounding smooth muscles to relax, thus resulting in vasodilation (the widening of blood vessels) and increased blood flow.
Reduction in the bioavailability of nitric oxide plays a significant role in the development of high blood pressure. Without it, you’d have a heart attack. There is an enzyme called Tyrosine hydroxylase (or TH for short) that limits that amount of nitric oxide you can produce.
Researchers had a hunch that propolis could decrease TH and in turn, lower blood pressure. So they took a bunch of rats and fed them something called nitro-l-arginine methyl ester for 15 days, to produce high blood pressure. They then fed the rats propolis for the last five days.
What they found after doing this was that propolis decreased TH activity in the rats. As a result, they suggested that propolis may help modulate blood pressure.”

I stopped taking propolis and won't take it for another two days, then I'll take a much lower dose of it. I'll see what's going to happen, will give you an update.

My hypothesis is that the reason why I get exhausted and get heart palpitations after eating rice is related to my low blood pressure. If I can solve this low bp issue, I think I may be able to eat rice without having these problems...


----------



## Crohn2357

BTW, have you tried L-Glutamine yet? I may try it next month after a resection surgery, wondering your experiences (if any).


----------



## Crohn2357

Whoa, just stumbled across these guys. They're eating their foods raw - even animal foods. 

I'd like to eat my meat raw; but I'm afraid it would be dangerous to do so.

Edit - Here's a video on Youtube: My Raw Meat Breakfast. Interesting.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> Whoa, just stumbled across these guys. They're eating their foods raw - even animal foods.
> 
> I'd like to eat my meat raw; but I'm afraid it would be dangerous to do so.
> 
> Edit - Here's a video on Youtube: My Raw Meat Breakfast. Interesting.


my view.... just no......
there are freaks and weirdos all over the internet,
we can digest raw meat and eating some of our meat raw may have advantages (vitamin content), and disadvantages (pathogens, less bio-availability)
and, i guess there are a small percentage that may do well on that diet but i'm sticking with the "fire made us human" theory[1]......

Three points are foremost -
1/ it seems to be a great weight loss strategy - making it harder to get nutrition from the food
2/ with our modern meat production, from grazing to slaughter to processing, the risks are much higher than when we would have killed something and eaten it fresh
3/ modern humans generally don't have the microbiome and associated immunity that hunter-gatherers would have had (or in some cases still have)

If you can trust the meat then go for it as a part of your diet and increase slowly, but this reminds me of a conversation that i had with an otherwise intelligent person who quite earnestly believed that being a bretharian was possible and his 'proof' was that he felt better if he skipped the odd meal.

If a little is good it does not follow that only that is better.

And, at the risk of offending, i would suggest that you might want to review everything else that you are currently doing and reconsider the possible consequences (like sodium and propolis) before adding another layer of confusion over the top.
I'm getting the impression that you (and most people looking for relief) are prone to a gung-ho approach ("I'lll take a lot of that and see what happens")

just my two cents.....

[1] The energetic significance of cooking
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248409001262
 Why Fire Makes Us Human
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-fire-makes-us-human-72989884/


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> my view.... just no......
> there are freaks and weirdos all over the internet,
> we can digest raw meat and eating some of our meat raw may have advantages (vitamin content), and disadvantages (pathogens, less bio-availability)
> and, i guess there are a small percentage that may do well on that diet but i'm sticking with the "fire made us human" theory[1]......
> 
> 
> [1] The energetic significance of cooking
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248409001262
> Why Fire Makes Us Human
> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-fire-makes-us-human-72989884/


I thought it was interesting; but I would never eat animal products raw, I don't even eat most of my veggies raw in fear of infection, and to a much lesser extent, because of the lower absorption rate. I think I should've made myself clear on that point. Though, I still find that subject (some people are eating raw meat) interesting, and I also wonder how the taste & texture of the food feels like that way; but no - I wouldn't try to find it out...

"Three points are foremost -
1/ it seems to be a great weight loss strategy - making it harder to get nutrition from the food
2/ with our modern meat production, from grazing to slaughter to processing, the risks are much higher than when we would have killed something and eaten it fresh
3/ modern humans generally don't have the microbiome and associated immunity that hunter-gatherers would have had (or in some cases still have)"


Those are valid points that I completely agree with.


"If you can trust the meat then go for it as a part of your diet and increase slowly, but this reminds me of a conversation that i had with an otherwise intelligent person who quite earnestly believed that being a bretharian was possible and his 'proof' was that he felt better if he skipped the odd meal.

If a little is good it does not follow that only that is better."


I wouldn't eat the meat of an animal uncooked even if I raised the animal myself.


"And, at the risk of offending, i would suggest that you might want to review everything else that you are currently doing and reconsider the possible consequences (like sodium and propolis) before adding another layer of confusion over the top.
I'm getting the impression that you (and most people looking for relief) are prone to a gung-ho approach ("I'lll take a lot of that and see what happens")

just my two cents....."

I'm not offended; I take this as a valuable word of caution - though I'd like you to say what do you think I may be doing wrong in cases of sodium and propolis. I'm assuming, you're saying that I should more thoroughly and seriously consider the possible health consequences of the recent changes in my salt intake and propolis dosage (or, taking propolis in general) and do more research before experimenting, and change one thing at a time.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> I'm not offended; I take this as a valuable word of caution - though I'd like you to say what do you think I may be doing wrong in cases of sodium and propolis. I'm assuming, you're saying that I should more thoroughly and seriously consider the possible health consequences of the recent changes in my salt intake and propolis dosage (or, taking propolis in general) and do more research before experimenting, and change one thing at a time.


There are three issues ( it's not that i think you are doing wrong or right.), 
- firstly, there is the distinct possibility that a change anyone makes may lead to an improvement or a worsening of health, and that this may not manifest immediately.
Trying another supplement/exercise/food/medication to combat the unwanted effects of the original is not a path we want to head down so reviewing ALL the things currently being done (or being considered) to be aware of possible effects or interactions will be beneficial.
-secondly, making multiple changes at the same time (or even close to each other)  makes it impossible to know what is responsible for improvement or decline.
-thirdly, large changes may upset a balance and cause a worsening before settling into an improvement,


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> There are three issues ( it's not that i think you are doing wrong or right.),
> - firstly, there is the distinct possibility that a change anyone makes may lead to an improvement or a worsening of health, and that this may not manifest immediately.
> Trying another supplement/exercise/food/medication to combat the unwanted effects of the original is not a path we want to head down so reviewing ALL the things currently being done (or being considered) to be aware of possible effects or interactions will be beneficial.
> -secondly, making multiple changes at the same time (or even close to each other)  makes it impossible to know what is responsible for improvement or decline.
> -thirdly, large changes may upset a balance and cause a worsening before settling into an improvement,


Thanks for writing these down. These are the basic principles of self-experimentation, and I actually knew I was being impatient and not following the right methodology with dealing this low blood pressure issue.

To me, it was obvious that I was not eating enough salt (regardless of the low bp) and this proved true after increasing my salt intake. The effects (other than on my blood pressure) of this change were just right and expected. 

For propolis, I knew I've been taking high dose of it and I wanted to cut it down regardless of its effects on blood pressure, though I thought it would also increase my blood pressure and I wanted to get this quick.

But you're absolutely right, to be able to know what is causing what I should've followed the right method (the principles you've pointed out).

In regards to trying L-Glutamine in the future, my plan is to take it after a resection surgery (this is a recommended route) which is at least a month later.

About decreasing/increasing my carb intake so abruptly, yeah, you're right but when you think what you've been doing is wrong you have two choices: Either "correct" it suddenly, or, to change one parameter at a time in order to follow the right method, you just go with it for the time being. 

In sum, I think it's a matter of impatience, your confidence on the changes you make, and how much you want to know of an effect of a change on your body (or, to say it more straight, how much you want to know what you are doing) and how much you just want to get a result without building a robust judgement from the elements of your experiment.

I appreciate the concern and the time you take to point out these principles as a note of caution. It made me reconsider what I've been doing, thank you.


----------



## Crohn2357

This is a useful infographic on salt (taken from here) in case anyone is interested: 

	
	
		
		
	


	







Best way to know how much salt you eat in a day is to measure your salt intake with a teaspoon every meal one day.


----------



## Crohn2357

About a year ago I started to take propolis and it stopped my abdominal pain and rectal bleeding. It also decreased the severity and frequency of my migraines a little. 

I knew I may get abdominal pain again after I stop taking it, and it is happening...

----- -----

Some time ago I pointed a thread in this forum to you that mentions the lead accumulation risk with drinking bone broth soup and eating the cooked bones.

Here is another one: http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=68753

It is obvious that the original study that started this debate is a terrible one; yet it makes me worried.

I wouldn't be worried if I was to drink the bone broth soup once in a year; but now that I'm not taking propolis, I'm planning to drink bone broth soups daily as a compensation for the absence of propolis.

I didn't go nuts over that study, I've been making and drinking bone broth soup since I read it, but it sure made me concerned, especially for the long term effects if I am to drink bone broth frequently.

I've read everything I can find about this debate (on paleo and non-paleo websites) but, still not sure. More and legitimate studies on this subject are urgently needed that's for sure.

The famous paleo websites (and forums) that wrote counter articles on that study don't sound convincing - which is adding to the concerns... On the one hand, the actual study is making it hard to discuss (and attach a special importance to) this issue because of the vagueness and the bad design of it; on the other hand, because of its rightly regarded beneficial effects, paleo followers have been drinking, using bone broth a lot and if the claims of lead contamination has truth in it, then this may have disastrous effects on people's lives. 

This is a good talk about bone broth; but unfortunately it doesn't touch on the lead contamination issue. Nonetheless, I find the "mycoplasma" part at the 38th minute especially interesting.



> We believe the body is not attacking itself, but is desperately trying to rid itself of disease-producing microbes that are not recognized by the scientific community.


--- --- --- ---

Take a look at this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4TvGt899Q


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh, you may like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhzV-J1h0do

A great talk on the history of cholesterol and related issues, given by a knowledgeable person.

***************** ***************** *****************

Edit: Here is a reddit post discussing the lead contamination issue, down below in the replies section you can see a link to the full text of the actual study.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/comments/4fda3k/bone_broth_high_levels_of_lead/

A counter article: http://tamararubin.com/2017/03/bone_broth/



> More often than not “health-gurus” and “health bloggers” including some with MEDICAL credentials will (in their writing) attempt to diminish or discount the impact of the concentrated levels of lead found in bone broth.
> 
> * Lead bio-mimics calcium when absorbed by natural structures.
> * Bones are high in calcium.
> * That is why bones are a storehouse for lead (in all animals).
> * If an animal is exposed to lead in their environment—from feed (many documented sources for contamination here), from soil, from tractors and other farm vehicles’ exhaust (yes, many of these – legally – still use leaded fuel!), from both modern and legacy paint and industrial finishes on farm equipment and buildings (yep, lead still legal in lots of “non-residential” paint as well!)— then their bones will absorb and accumulate this lead in the place of calcium.
> * When you make broth from these bones (vs. from the meat of the animal)  – be it a chicken or a cow or a pig, you are using the most leaded part of the animal to make the broth.
> * The broth will pull all of the “nutrients” and “minerals” out of the bones and into the broth… and this includes lead.
> 
> There is no valid justification (not a single one) to intentionally concentrate lead in a single food source to add it to your diet. Just don’t do it. Make your broth out of the meat of the animal.  Source your broth ingredients from known farms – where you have EVIDENCE that the farm does not use leaded gasoline (which, as stated above, is still legal to use in farm equipment) and does NOT have old lead painted farm buildings (it’s also perfectly legal for even organic farms to have old lead-painted buildings, vehicles, and industrial equipment!) and does NOT have soil that is lead contaminated from previous / legacy leaded pesticide use, and is NOT near a freeway or small airport that might have generated a lot of lead residue from leaded gasoline use [in the past for freeways and in the present for small airports (you guessed it – small planes still -legally- use leaded fuel!] that may have contaminated the soil.


Take a look at the comments section.

----------- ----------- -----------

It is said that long simmering process actually draws much more lead out of the bones than a short time cooking. In the early days (3-4 years ago) I used to cook the bones for 48 hours; then in this year I've found out I can cook them in pressure cooker for 5 hours and it would still be very gelatinous, so I've been doing that. Maybe this method is safer, but I really don't know.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> About a year ago I started to take propolis....I knew I may get abdominal pain again after I stop taking it, and it is happening...


Is there a lower dose that works for you? 
----- -----



Crohn2357 said:


> Some time ago I pointed a thread in this forum to you that mentions the lead accumulation risk with drinking bone broth soup and eating the cooked bones.........[/QUOTE
> 
> who knows? needs a proper study, then I will take notice...


----------



## Crohn2357

"Is there a lower dose that works for you?"

There is, but for the sake of experiment I'm still not taking propolis. To see if my bp will get any better. No changes yet.

I went to an endocrinologist to check my adrenal glands, thyroids... Except from all the known bullshit ("your 'bad' cholesterol is high, your vit d level is high and this is toxic..."), blood tests showed no problems.

If my bp won't get any better, I will consult to a cardio doctor and then, if we still don't have a clue, a neurology doctor. 

I'm thinking of reducing my dietary potassium intake. I've been eating a lot of green bananas and it might be contributing. Though my Na/K levels are fine, our bodies do an excellent job at maintaining a narrow serum range when it comes to electrolytes. My dietary potassium intake is definitely higher than the average person. I will eat other vegetables that do not have especially high levels of potassium.

About the broth issue: People claim that human beings have been making bone broth for a very long time and broth is a traditional food, no danger has come from it...

What this person wrote I think deserves attention because it sounds reasonable to me. Don't you think?
Continuous long term exposure to lead sounds scary. I mean I'm not done with bone broth, in fact, I just drank one big cup of it, and will continue making and drinking it, but the world (the soil, the plants...) has changed so much and so rapidly after the WW2, and the thought of ingesting environmental toxins is worrisome. 

Is this a vegan propaganda? A capitalist conspiracy? I don't care.

This is definitely not something to be dismissed, but, because we don't have any other studies yet, we can't know... We can only speculate.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> About the broth issue: People claim that human beings have been making bone broth for a very long time and broth is a traditional food, no danger has come from it...


Yeah, before we fucked everything up and contaminated the crap out of everything?



Crohn2357 said:


> What this person wrote I think deserves attention because it sounds reasonable to me. Don't you think?


If you start with the assumption that the study is legit then , it sounds reasonable.
But is the study legit?
If we stopped eating everything mentioned in dodgy science papers then there wouldn't be much left. I get the best chicken carcases i can and will take my chances until more data comes out.



Crohn2357 said:


> Continuous long term exposure to lead sounds scary. I mean I'm not done with bone broth, in fact, I just drank one big cup of it, and will continue making and drinking it, but the world (the soil, the plants...) has changed so much and so rapidly after the WW2, and the thought of ingesting environmental toxins is worrisome


IF the chicken is lead contaminated then it came from the feed, the water or the soil.



Crohn2357 said:


> This is definitely not something to be dismissed, but, because we don't have any other studies yet, we can't know... We can only speculate..


yes, speculate we can.
that's the good thing about the internet, 
-choose your side and look for blogs that support your view ;-)


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> I'm fine with rice, but don't eat a lot of it (have large amount and then none for a week...)
> 
> So, i'm guessing the problem isn't the glycemic index, it's the glycemic load (GI x quantity)
> 
> Smaller amounts of rice with more fat will buffer absorption.
> 
> If it were me i would try...
> - rice dishes where the rice is fried in fat/oil before adding water (pilau, risotto, etc)
> - smaller amounts and eat with fatty lamb,
> 
> might help, might not.....


About an hour ago, while I was in a supermarket, your remarks about glycemic load came to my mind. I thought, what if it is true? What if I'm actually eating more than one serving. I've always thought I've been eating less than one serving in a meal.

So I bought a pack of jasmine rice, came to my house, did some calculations...

It turns out, I've been eating more than one serving in a meal. One serving of (uncooked, white) rice equals to 1/4 cup of rice, which is about 45-55 grams. 
I eat 80 grams of rice in a meal. That's 64 grams of carbohydrates.

I'll try 1/4 cup of rice this time. Might work.


----------



## InstantCoffee

How much rice area you eating? There's also arsenic to consider https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqLsBxfsvHM


----------



## Crohn2357

Thanks for pointing out.

I eat one serving of jasmine rice in every meal. I mostly eat jasmine rice (imported from Thailand), sometimes I also eat sushi rice. These are known to have low arsenic levels. BTW, I never eat brown rice.

Another important factor is the water. I use a lab tested quality spring water for everything (cooking, drinking etc.).

Some notes from this website:



> Brown rice has 80 percent more inorganic arsenic on average than white rice of the same type. Arsenic accumulates in the grain’s outer layers, which are removed to make white rice





> White basmati rice from California, India, and Pakistan, and sushi rice from the U.S. on average has half of the inorganic-arsenic amount of most other types of rice.





> You may be able to cut your exposure to inorganic arsenic in any type of rice by rinsing raw rice thoroughly before cooking, using a ratio of 6 cups water to 1 cup rice, and draining the excess water afterward. That is a traditional method of cooking rice in Asia. The modern technique of cooking rice in water that is entirely absorbed by the grains has been promoted because it allows rice to retain more of its vitamins and other nutrients. But even though you may sacrifice some of rice's nutritional value, research has shown that rinsing and using more water removes about 30 percent of the rice's inorganic arsenic content.


A comment (what he says is true): 





> The best rices are Basmati & Jasmine from California, India, and Thailand. They have the lowest Ia (arsenic) levels.


From this website.



> Aromatic rice seem to be lower in general, such as Jasmine and Basmati. Imported Jasmine and Basmati rice are typically significant lower in arsenic than most US grown rice. Thailand rice is not only found to be low in arsenic in the latest testing, but last I heard they had banned genetically modified rice from their country, another important aspect to rice eating to consider.


Again...



> Look for rice grown in California and imported basmati and jasmine rices, which may have lower arsenic levels. A 2007 study in Environmental Health Perspectives, for example, found less arsenic in rice grown in California than in the southcentral U.S. Another paper found that basmati rice from India and Pakistan, as well as jasmine rice from Thailand, had the least arsenic. But other research has had contradictory results.


From the wikipedia article for rice:


> Jasmine rice from Thailand and Basmati rice from Pakistan and India contain the least arsenic among rice varieties in one study.


The source for this claim :



> “Until this all gets sorted out, consumers shouldn’t be overly concerned,” Duxbury says. Nevertheless, rice fanciers might note that both Duxbury and Meharg found basmati rice imported from India and Pakistan and jasmine rice from Thailand to contain the least arsenic.


Here is the U.S. Food and Drug Administration Analytical Results from Inorganic Arsenic in Rice  and Rice Products  Sampling September  2013. The levels vary a lot.

I'm going to find imported basmati rice.


----------



## Crohn2357

InstantCoffee, feel free to give further ideas on the rice, if you have any. I'd appreciate it.

Secondly, what's your take on the broth - lead contamination topic?

Do you drink bone broth?


----------



## Crohn2357

Soaking and rinsing the rice before cooking it reduces the arsenic content:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...hould-i-be-concerned-about-arsenic-in-my-rice
http://www.health.com/food/how-to-reduce-arsenic-in-rice
https://www.treehugger.com/green-food/how-cook-rice-remove-most-arsenic.html


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357,
This might interest you,
Robb wolf podcast about salt.....
https://robbwolf.com/2017/08/29/episode-371-dr-james-dinicolantonio-the-salt-fix/


----------



## Crohn2357

Thanks, I'll listen to it.

By the way, in the above post, the way they cook the rice to reduce the arsenic content is called "pasta method". From now on, I'll use this method.



> Cooking rice with a substantial surplus of water that is thendiscardedreduc-es the arsenic content in rice by up to 70 per cent.
> •As an individual consumer it is difficult to influence the intake of inorganicarsenic from food, since there are many sources. Obviously one way is to eatless rice and rice products, but for consumers who eat a good deal of rice aspart of meals or as a whole meal, the way the rice is cooked can also be signif-icant. When the rice is cooked in an excess amount of water, which is thendiscarded when the rice is cooked, the amount of arsenic in the rice is decreased by 40 to 70 per cent. In order to reduce exposure to arsenic, there istherefore good reason to inform that levels of arsenic in rice can be reduced ifthe rice is cooked in excess water that is then poured away when the rice isready. The study shows that simply rinsing the rice before cooking has nogreat effect on the level of inorganic arsenic in the rice. Cooking rice in such away that the water cooks in until the rice becomes dry does not affect the levelof inorganic arsenic in the rice.
> •Information that the level of arsenic in rice can be affected by preparation isvery important for companies that produce rice products. Changing the pro-duction of rice products would probably have a considerably greater effect onarsenic exposure than the individual consumer’s preparation of rice. This isbecause exposure to arsenic comes not only from the rice that is cooked athome but also from many other types of products (such as rice snacks, ricedrinks and rice porridge).


https://www.livsmedelsverket.se/glo...dish-market-2015---part-3-risk-management.pdf 

This chart shows an 80% reduction of arsenic caused by the combination of soaking the rice and using "the pasta method" of cooking:


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> Crohn2357,
> This might interest you,
> Robb wolf podcast about salt.....
> https://robbwolf.com/2017/08/29/episode-371-dr-james-dinicolantonio-the-salt-fix/


hugh, this is a GREAT podcast. Thanks again for sharing with me.


----------



## InstantCoffee

Crohn2357 said:


> InstantCoffee, feel free to give further ideas on the rice, if you have any. I'd appreciate it.
> 
> Secondly, what's your take on the broth - lead contamination topic?
> 
> Do you drink bone broth?


No opinion, not informed on the topic enough. I feel like I can get all the same benefits without the lead contamination risk from other sources though. Basically the same way I feel about rice. I'm gonna stick with oats.


----------



## Crohn2357

InstantCoffee said:


> I feel like I can get all the same benefits without the lead contamination risk from other sources though.


What are those sources? 

L-Glutamine? Collagen Hydrolysate?

I've thought the cross reactivity issue could be problematic. So I've always stayed away from it. But some research shows that if you're eating gluten free diet then it may not be an issue:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18224563
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16373275


> The majority of non-celiac gluten sensitivity patients (93.2%) showed the disappearance of anti-gliadin antibodies of IgG class after 6 months of gluten-free diet; in contrast, 16/40 (40%) of celiac patients displayed the persistence of these antibodies after gluten withdrawal. In non-celiac gluten sensitivity patients anti-gliadin antibodies IgG persistence after gluten withdrawal was significantly correlated with the low compliance to gluten-free diet and a mild clinical response.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24524388

Be careful with wheat contamination.

------ ------ ------ ------

Edit: Here is a graphic showing some gluten cross-reactors:
https://thepaleomomcom-xt0mxgicgroc...03/The-Paleo-Mom-Gluten-Cross-Reactors-01.jpg

From: https://www.thepaleomom.com/gluten-...-youre-eating-gluten-even-after-giving-it-up/

------ ------ ------ ------

http://paleofoundation.com/19-gluten-cross-reactive-foods/


----------



## Crohn2357

"Better than wheat, worse (and more work to improve) than rice."

Says Mark Sisson.

Comment section has different opinions on oats.

This is Mark's article about rice.


----------



## InstantCoffee

His basis is demonizing phytates and the possibility of cross-reactivity. 
Phytates, however, are not inherently bad as they have been linked to reduced incidences of digestive cancer. 
https://www.youtube.com/user/NutritionFactsOrg/search?query=phytates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgihTBZrOvY


----------



## hugh

InstantCoffee said:


> His basis is demonizing phytates and the possibility of cross-reactivity.
> Phytates, however, are not inherently bad as they have been linked to reduced incidences of digestive cancer.
> https://www.youtube.com/user/NutritionFactsOrg/search?query=phytates
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgihTBZrOvY


One big problem with the internet is that you can find 'experts' with wildly conflicting views quoting scientific papers that seem to support their views.
I have a pretty low opinion of vegan propaganda, so NutriotionFacts.org is pretty low on my personal list of reliable information. I mean seriously, what else is a vegan gonna say?

As usual the truth is a bit more nuanced, 
Phytates do interfere with nutrient absorption so if you are nutritionally chalanged you may do well to limit or avoid them. Having said that almost all 'antinutrients' can have a beneficial effect [1].
Like almost everything it is a 'U' shaped curve.
Somewhere between too much and too little, good luck working out what that is....
Personally, oats make me squirt from the wrong end so I don't eat them

[1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/096399699390069U


----------



## InstantCoffee

Vegans and paleo need to have a battle royale, I'll just assume the winners are right because their diet made them stronger. Both of them lean pretty strongly on conflicting studies. 

Both oats and psyllium husks have the effect where they pull cholesterol to make bile and both have extremely positive effects on my digestion, can't explain it but I think there's something to it, and I don't think it's the fiber because plenty of other fiberous foods have no benefit, or are harmful to my digestion.


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh, I bought the L-Glutamine supplements.

Have you tried it yet? I understand that the dosage used for Crohn's Disease is higher (around 30 grams a day) than the doses used in the physical training area.

How much grams of l-glutamine would you (do you?) use in a day? For how long would you keep taking it?

Back to the neurotoxicity concerns...

Glutamine: A Trojan Horse in Ammonia Neurotoxicity
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lationship-with-ammonia-and-astrocytes.38680/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4714775/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11754523

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2566647

BTW, have you seen this new Cochrane review? 


> Currently there is insufficient evidence to allow firm conclusions regarding the efficacy and safety of glutamine for induction of remission in Crohn's disease. Data from two small studies suggest that glutamine supplementation may not be beneficial in active Crohn's disease but these results need to be interpreted with caution as they are based on small numbers of patients. This review highlights the need for adequately powered randomised controlled trials to investigate the efficacy and safety of glutamine for induction of remission in Crohn's disease.


----------



## hugh

Not something I have thought about too much. 
Saw the review, but there is science to say it helps with leaky gut and digestive issues.
Bound to be many threads on the forum, haps on the interweb


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> hugh, I bought the L-Glutamine supplements.
> Have you tried it yet? I understand that the dosage used for Crohn's Disease is higher (around 30 grams a day) than the doses used in the physical training area.
> How much grams of l-glutamine would you (do you?) use in a day? For how long would you keep taking it?
> 
> ack to the neurotoxicity concerns..


If i were testing it on myself i would follow these guys advice to the letter.....

_*L-Glutamine: 7 Surprising Do’s and Don’ts for People with Leaky Gut & Autoimmunity*
"Too much, too soon of any supplement can cause issues and L-Glutamine is no different. The best way to use this supplement is to slowly ramp the dosage up over a few weeks. This allows the body to grow comfortable and reduces the chances of overwhelm."
"Last reminder, if you experience any negative reactions, stop the supplement or reduce your dosage right away. More on why this happens below, but for now take a few days at a lower dosage, or off, and then try again. If you still react, then it’s probably not right for you at this time.  " _
https://scdlifestyle.com/2015/09/l-glutamine-7-dos-and-donts/


----------



## Crohn2357

Thanks. Instead of using it daily; I will use it if my intestines get worse, because of the neurotoxicity concerns.

The claims look incredible on the paper; but one important thing most of the times the paleo writers lack is discussing the counter arguments.

Neurotoxicity is a big deal, and I don't want to mess with it. I'll stick to drinking bone broth to heal my gut - it does a wonderful job; and it is probably safer, in terms of any kind of toxicity.

Primum non nocere.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> I will use it if my intestines get worse, because of the neurotoxicity concerns.


Not sure the concerns are real, like many of these things. I'm sure it is a good theory there might not be much behind it....
"Conclusion
Intravenous glutamine in clinically relevant doses leaves cerebral glutamate unaffected. "
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-006-0375-3




Crohn2357 said:


> The claims look incredible on the paper; but one important thing most of the times the paleo writers lack is discussing the counter arguments.


I'm not sure how many times the article I linked to warned to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble.. .


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> "Conclusion
> Intravenous glutamine in clinically relevant doses leaves cerebral glutamate unaffected. "
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-006-0375-3


I read the full text of that study. It would be much better if it were not done on patients with head trauma. This is not a reliable study to depend on for individuals with no brain trauma, like us.

From the Discussion: 





> The normal interstitial concentration of glutamate in the brain is less than 10 μmol/l [12]. Among the patients
> studied, there was one clear outlier in interstitial glutamine
> concentration, and in addition four patients had clearly elevated
> concentrations of glutamate. However, these elevated
> levels of glutamate were totally independent of intravenous
> administration of glutamine, and they did not change over
> time. High interstitial glutamate concentrations in individual
> patients have been reported in most studies involving
> interstitial glutamate concentration measurements in brain
> injury patients [10, 11, 12, 13].


This is only one study, and they say there are no others. Still, better than nothing.



hugh said:


> Not sure the concerns are real, like many of these things. I'm sure it is a good theory there might not be much behind it....


From the same text:


> Case reports have been published in which high concentrations of
> glutamate in the interstitial fluid adjacent to brain injury
> were found in neurosurgical patients [10, 11, 12, 13]. It
> has been suggested that a high concentration of glutamate
> may be associated with cerebral swelling and a high
> intracranial pressure (ICP). However, the mechanism
> behind the possible relation between high interstitial
> glutamate concentration and high ICP is still obscure [13,
> 14]. *Nevertheless, there is a fear that exogenous glutamine
> supplementation may increase interstitial glutamate concentration
> intracerebrally in brain injury patients, resulting
> in detrimental effects upon outcome.*





hugh said:


> I'm not sure how many times the article I linked to warned to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble.. .


To warn to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble is not discussing the counter arguments. No one needs "experts" to say that; this is common knowledge for many people. The problem is, if these people are experts, than they should research, find, collect and discuss the counter arguments in the same article as best as they can, with an objective mind. This is how you analyse.


----------



## hugh

I think we have been here before....
Yes, getting it from food is best.



Crohn2357 said:


> To warn to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble is not discussing the counter arguments.


I'm open to looking at the counter arguments but there is very little out there (and i'm not referring to paleo websites) other than liver and mania issues.



Crohn2357 said:


> No one needs "experts" to say that; this is common knowledge for many people. The problem is, if these people are experts, than they should research, find, collect and discuss the counter arguments in the same article as best as they can, with an objective mind. This is how you analyse.


I look forward to the 'collection' of counter arguments as i haven't seen any (other than those mentioned above).
Other than cautioning you to take it easy and stop at the first sign of trouble what else should they do?
-Trawl forums looking for anecdotal evidence to support the recommendation for caution that they already made?


----------



## Crohn2357

"Mania issues" are not the primary problem, they're just symptoms of the underlying problem, which is neurotoxicity, and who knows what it does to your brain.



"cautioning you to take it easy and stop at the first sign of trouble"

That is not enough on its own. You may have serious physiological problems but they may not show any sign of trouble at all. 
Observations of the symptoms (the observable effects) are not reliable on their own, in my opinion. I think they should acknowledge people about the risks (neurotoxicity, for example) by stating them explicitly in the same article. Not because they are true (it doesn't matter if they haven't been falsified yet), but because these counter thoughts exist, and some people may benefit from knowing them.



"what else should they do?
-Trawl forums looking for anecdotal evidence to support the recommendation for caution that they already made?"

They can google these keywords to see some of the papers:  "glutamine toxicity pubmed" , "glutamine neurotoxicty pubmed".  This is just one thing, among many, they can do. It's their job to know how to search for the claims of potential dangers on any health advise they make.


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> "Mania issues" are not the primary problem, they're just symptoms of the underlying problem, which is neurotoxicity, and who knows what it does to your brain.
> 
> "cautioning you to take it easy and stop at the first sign of trouble"
> 
> That is not enough on its own. You may have serious physiological problems but they may not show any sign of trouble at all.
> Observations of the symptoms (the observable effects) are not reliable on their own, in my opinion. I think they should acknowledge people about the risks (neurotoxicity, for example) by stating them explicitly in the same article. Not because they are true (it doesn't matter if they haven't falsified yet), but because these counter thoughts exist, and some people may benefit from knowing them.
> 
> "what else should they do?
> -Trawl forums looking for anecdotal evidence to support the recommendation for caution that they already made?"
> 
> They can google these keywords to see some of the papers:  "glutamine toxicity pubmed" , "glutamine neurotoxicty pubmed".  This is just one thing, among many, they can do. It's their job to know how to search for the claims of potential dangers on any health advise they make.


I'm struggling to find anything other than the *theory* that excess glutamine promotes hepatic encephalopathy in people with liver disease, which is serious, but still just a theory.

Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in the blood and is continuously circulating so we are obviously able to regulate uptake as required (unless we aren't able, which is your point). With a healthy liver it appears that ammonia build-up is not an issue, but the science is way over my head and, to be honest, out of my interest range.
As evidence appears and theory turns to knowledge i am sure websites will be updated.....

It is still a conditionally essential amino acid so i'm still going to eat foods containing large amounts of glutamine (but not take glutamine supplements), and not feel in the least bit worried about it, just like i'm going to eat bone broth and not worry about lead....


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> It is still a conditionally essential amino acid so i'm still going to eat foods containing large amounts of glutamine (but not take glutamine supplements), and not feel in the least bit worried about it, just like i'm going to eat bone broth and not worry about lead....


Agreed.


----------



## Crohn2357

Glutamine and cancer cells:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3754270/

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/aidan-goggins/glutamine-and-cancer_b_2740348.html

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4939-1932-1_8

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170413124348.htm


----------



## Smartfitness1992

InstantCoffee said:


> I recently stumbled upon information on Ketogenic diets, they are used to treat epilepsy and also as clean-bulk diets for body builders.
> 
> The basis for the diet is you eat a lot of meats and fat and virtually nothing that contains carbs and sugars, in a few weeks your body learns to metabolize fat as an energy source instead of sugars.
> 
> Currently this sounds very promising for me as my food intolerances basically limit me to eating white meats and dairy products as I am gluten intolerant, can't tolerate most fruits and vegetables or oils, legumes etc.
> 
> The only real issue left is that carbs and sugars make it much easier for me to make my daily calorie quota (I'd like to reasonably be as close to 2k as possible) and without them I'd have to eat a lot more meats and fats to make up for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any knowledge of this diet as pertains to Crohn's?


---------------------------------------------

Hey man I actually went keto for a bit, I found it was definitely beneficial GI wise, but it became difficult to sustain simply due to the lifestyle it entails. 

I recognize from your comments you are into health and fitness, I too am. I actually switched to more of a carb cycling method as I found this was more sustainable long term and I didn't have to supplement a ton of micronutrients. 

My advice (and many others, as I am actually in this field for school and my career), would be, if you're set on going keto, follow the anabolic diet. It cycles high fat like keto 5 days a week and 2 days a week of "carb re-feeds". I do this, but not on weekends, simply due to my lifestyle. It works best, and I never have cravings for desires for some sort of food.


----------



## Crohn2357

Hi hugh, it's been a while. 

In this thread you said:



hugh said:


> No idea but let us know how it goes. I feel like I've had a hangover/head cold for about 5 years now


I have a similar issue, and I think I've found something that is both effective and safe. It's Sulbutiamine. It's a special form of thiamine that crosses blood brain barrier more efficiently. It increases both physical and mental energy. You can read reviews on amazon or other websites on this supplement. 

I have been taking it for more than a month and it somewhat helps me. It might help you too.

Best.


----------



## Crohn2357

Sarah Ballantyne - The Danger of Ketogenic Diets Why Most of Us Shouldn’t Do It

This should have been longer in duration. It's incomprehensive like this.


----------



## Crohn2357

..


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh, you might appreciate this:

Hardy, Karen, et al. “The Importance of Dietary Carbohydrate in Human Evolution.” The Quarterly Review of Biology, vol. 90, no. 3, 2015, pp. 251–268. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/682587


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> hugh, you might appreciate this:
> 
> Hardy, Karen, et al. “The Importance of Dietary Carbohydrate in Human Evolution.” The Quarterly Review of Biology, vol. 90, no. 3, 2015, pp. 251–268. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/682587


yeah,
maybe.
nice theory, i'll put it up there with the theory that it was fat from hunting, and the theory that it was fire releasing more energy from our foods, or that it was times of scarcity that forced innovation and adaptation

I'm guessing that it wasn't just carbs, and it wasn't just fat, and it wasn't just fire, 
it was all of them at different times to different groups in different environments.
Some groups learned to thrive with higher fat and some learned to thrive with higher carb.


----------



## dino

I tried Keto and had a huge flare. I cannot correlate it completely to the Keto and I do not have a diagnosis of Crohn's- just the symptoms of it, but due to the timing I think Keto did something not so beneficial to my body. I know people with UC that do it with success... just be careful if you've had a history of difficulty processing fats. Also I used to think protein was my safe food, but I've come to realize I think it can be a trigger. Best of luck!


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> yeah,
> maybe.
> nice theory, i'll put it up there with the theory that it was fat from hunting, and the theory that it was fire releasing more energy from our foods, or that it was times of scarcity that forced innovation and adaptation
> 
> I'm guessing that it wasn't just carbs, and it wasn't just fat, and it wasn't just fire,
> it was all of them at different times to different groups in different environments.
> Some groups learned to thrive with higher fat and some learned to thrive with higher carb.


The main reason I posted this article is I have been reading about the importance of carbs and reading in general about macronutrient ratios for optimal health for some time. 

I came to the judgement that eating carbs is necessary for _optimal health_. I know diet is very individualistic, but this is true in general. 

One question: How much of your calories should come from carbs according to Paul Jaminet? I know he has changed his initial suggestion (from his book) and increased its percentage. Is it 30% or 40% now?

A side note: I have been adding liberal amount of virgin coconut oil to my rice while cooking and I find it to be a good way to increase my daily coconut oil intake. Rice and coconut oil go well with each other.
I also eat coconut oil straight from the jar, I especially do this when I am eating dry parts of an animal (like chicken breast).
I can recommend these methods as nice and easy ways to increase coconut oil intake.

I think saturated fats and safe starches are very important. Without these lots of health problems occur.


----------



## Crohn2357

Crohn2357 said:


> How much of your calories should come from carbs according to Paul Jaminet? I know he has changed his initial suggestion (from his book) and increased its percentage. Is it 30% or 40% now?


I found the answer: 30 percent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1LP9-3maYE


----------



## Crohn2357

hugh, may I ask you to read this article and write me your opinion about fish oil supplementation?

I have been taking high quality fish oil for years, and after reading that article I decided stop the supplementation and observe the effects. 

Well, after stopping it, my rectal bleeding has increased massively. In addition, a very mild arthritic pain in my knees has started to happen (comes and goes). I am not sure if this is related to my stopping fish oil supplementation or not. It could also be my experiments with eating fruits (fructose causes these problems too). Or maybe a combination of things. Hard to know definitively.

What are your opinions about PUFA avoidance and many other claims (or implications) of Ray Peat's article?

The main reason I had been taking fish oil was to increase neurogenesis and enhance cerebral functions in general.


----------



## Crohn2357

More articles:

http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/oils-in-context.shtml

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturated-oils.shtml

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsuitablefats.shtml


----------



## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> I found the answer: 30 percent.


It's a good starting point....
Some people will do better with less and some with more.
it's only one part of a diet and getting the 'right' amount of carbs without getting anything else 'right' probably wont help much.

Like everything it is a 'u'-shaped curve, too much is harmful, too little is harmful and in the middle is a range that seems optimal.
We have the ability to create glucose from protein through the process of neoglucogenesis so erring to the low side may be more beneficial (decreased microbial activity and intermittent ketosis)



Crohn2357 said:


> hugh, may I ask you to read this article and write me your opinion about fish oil supplementation?


my opinion (and i'm just some random guy on the internet pushing his half baked belief system) is very much in line with Paul Jaminet's advice
If you can get fresh oily fish and cook them gently then that is the best way to get fish oil [1]



Crohn2357 said:


> Well, after stopping it, my rectal bleeding has increased massively. In addition, a very mild arthritic pain in my knees has started to happen (comes and goes). I am not sure if this is related to my stopping fish oil supplementation or not. It could also be my experiments with eating fruits (fructose causes these problems too). Or maybe a combination of things. Hard to know definitively.


Not so hard, try the fish oil with fruit and no fish oil with no fruit.......
My money is on the fruit being the problem.....



Crohn2357 said:


> What are your opinions about PUFA avoidance and many other claims (or implications) of Ray Peat's article?


Way over my pay grade...
I'm very OK with the concept that 'we' eat way too much PUFA, and that most of it is toxic and rancid, and that vegetable ['seed] oils are a brilliant way to sell a toxic waste product as a healthy choice....
But that doesn't mean none is the right amount....

I'm not up on Ray Peat, and a quick google hasn't really changed my mind (much) [2]....
Anything on the WAP/Ancestral/Paleo/GAPS?whatever spectrum is going to be a good starting point, and arguing about which is better is like arguing if Nike are better than New Balance.
your feet are different to mine and you run differently too.
I understand a few of his ideas but they are not applicable to everyone all the time.

I'm still a paleo guy (but figure out what paleo foods you can tolerate and how much is the right amount). but i prefer "ancestral" as paleo has too many connotations and stereotypes.

[1] *Fish, Not Fish Oil Capsules*
_"In fact, clinical trials have compared eating fish to eating fish oil capsules.  Fish consumption has an excellent record in a number of clinical trials, but fish oil capsule supplements do not. "_
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/06/fish-not-fish-oil-capsules/

[2] *The Peat-atarian Diet For Those Of Us With Average IQs*
_"What makes the Peat Diet unique is that it approaches nutrition from a hormonal perspective. It is all about reducing chronic stress. To me the Peat Diet appears to be a modern fix to the WAPF Diet."
"it appears to me that the person most likely to benefit from this diet will be someone who has had a long history with dieting, specifically low-carb dieting. Weight loss has stalled. Most likely the person is female and possibly with a low thyroid. Ideally the person would be able to handle dairy. That is not to say others wouldn’t benefit, but that seems like the person who would get the most results."_
https://criticalmas.com/2012/11/the-peatarian-diet-for-those-of-us-with-average-iqs/


----------



## Crohn2357

I started antibiotics yesterday because of the bleeding. 



hugh said:


> My money is on the fruit being the problem.....


Yes, it is more probable.


----------



## Crohn2357

I found what's been causing the problem: a plant extract I have been using as a natural migraine prophylactic for a month. It's Feverfew. A potent inhibitor of prostaglandin synthesis, which, although known as pro-inflammatory, seems to have gut protective properties. 



> The initial glimmer of our current recognition that PGE2 is critical to the homeostasis of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract dates to 1938, when acetylsalicylic acid, or aspirin, was first reported to cause gastric hemorrhage [4], which in 1955 was attributed to its potential to promote erosive gastritis [5]. The roots of our mechanistic understanding for these observations derive from two Nobel Prize-winning discoveries, namely the purification and structural characterization of prostaglandins by Sune Bergström and Bengt Samuelsson, and the subsequent discovery by John Vane that aspirin inhibited the enzymatic production of prostaglandins. Today, it is recognized that abundant production of PGE2 by the constitutively active cyclooxygenase-1 in gastric epithelial cells is critical to their protection from a harsh acidic environment. It is now appreciated that PGE2 promotes epithelial integrity in other parts of the GI tract and indeed in other organs. That PGE2 protects against epithelial injury is evident from its anti-apoptotic effects in a mouse model of radiation colitis [6]. Although PGE2 is classically thought of as a pro-inflammatory molecule, this reputation largely reflects its actions on the microvasculature, but—interestingly—its effects on leukocytes are predominantly suppressive, as exemplified by its contribution to immune tolerance in the gut [7]. The increased risk of Crohn’s disease associated with the use of aspirin and other NSAIDs [8] may therefore be explained by the loss of both the anti-inflammatory and epithelial-protective actions of PGE2.
> 
> Returning to the challenge of curbing fibrotic responses, significant data—mostly from studies of the lung, liver, kidney, and skin—support the hypothesis that PGE2 exerts anti-fibrotic effects independently of its anti-inflammatory and epithelial-protective actions. This reflects that PGE2 can also inhibit nearly all aspects of fibroblast activation via its ability to increase intracellular cyclic AMP [9]; in vivo administration of PGE2 can prevent lung fibrosis in mouse models [10]. The paper by Baird and colleagues reports for the first time that exogenous administration of PGE2 ameliorated intestinal fibrosis in the commonly employed 2,4,6-trinitrobenzene sulfonic acid (TNBS) murine model. The authors also examined the effects of PGE2 on intestinal fibroblasts in vitro, and like fibroblasts from other organs, PGE2 directly inhibited fibroblast proliferation and collagen production. Since in this in vivo study PGE2 was co-administered with TNBS, it inhibited intestinal inflammation as well. This experimental design, therefore, fails to distinguish whether PGE2 is capable of actually reversing preexisting intestinal fibrosis or whether it merely limits the inflammatory damage that culminates in fibrosis. As noted earlier, an independent anti-fibrotic effect is essential if we are to argue that PGE2 is superior to existing immunomodulatory drugs used to treat IBD. Although its recognized direct inhibitory effects on fibroblast functions would predict that this would be the case, a proof-of-principle experiment would require its administration later in the disease model when intestinal fibrosis is already established.


From: Prostaglandin E2 and Polyenylphosphatidylcholine: Stiff Competition for the Fibrotic Complications of Inflammatory Bowel Disease? 

To add an interesting information, fish oil and PUFAs in general are known to increase prostaglandin synthesis. This may be an additional mechanism (the other being their immunosuppressive effects) to fish oil's positive effects on Crohn's Disease.

So, feverfew inhibited its synthesis, and my stopping taking fish oil caused a further decrease in prostaglandin levels. I think the more important perpetrator here is feverfew. I am stopping taking it.


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## Crohn2357

Hello hugh, I would like to learn your opinion regarding dried fruit consumption. As I have said before, the only safe starches available to me are white rice and green bananas. I can’t eat fruits, but i might be able to eat dried mulberries without much of an issue (just started experimenting with it). 

This is the rather crude way of looking at these foods from a paleo perspective, though i agree that it is easy to overeat with these things. https://paleoleap.com/dried-fruit-and-sugar/ 

What do you think about dried berries as a safe carb source? Eating it every day? Once when i learn the exact quantities i tend to eat i will let you know.

Possible problems: SIBO, fungal overgrowth, crohn’s flaring up, arthritis, migraine attacks from the fructose, deterioration of oral health,increased inflammation. This is my speculation.

Do you have any cautioning?

I need natural carb alternatives in my diet. Struggling with this.

Edit: I measured the amount. 250 grams of dried mulberries a day. Normally the sugar concentration of berries is lower than that of the other kinds of fruits; but since this is a dried fruit it doesn’t have water in it so it’s all sugar and fibre by weight.

Other than this the only carb I eat is 100 grams of white rice ever day. The dried fruit gives me a much-needed energy; but i fear it’s very dangerous to eat it because of its inflammogenic effects. Its  other effects on me are great though: greatly increased energy, mental concentration, motivation, productivity, reduced stress[1] etc.

[1]: "This study provides novel evidence for the glucocorticoid-metabolic-brain feedback pathway in humans. Previous findings suggested that anabolic (or anticatabolic) effects of consuming highly palatable and calorically dense foods or beverages signal the brain to turn off the HPA stress response (14). Teleologically, this makes sense because, in anticipation of or during stress, elevated concentrations of glucocorticoids such as cortisol stimulate catabolism to ensure fuel for the brain and the fight or flight response (27). During recovery from stress, these steroid hormones promote energy recovery by motivating energy intake and stimulating lipogenesis and glycogen synthesis (28). Unlike artificial sweeteners, sugar may provide the fuel needed to meet the energetic demands of stress, which may reduce the need for glucocorticoid-driven energy catabolism and mobilization of the body's energy stores. Consistent with this notion, rodent data have shown that sucrose consumption prevents body catabolism and the activation in the HPA axis (8, 10, 29). The results we present here show that humans' ingestion of sucrose, but not artificially, sweetened beverages reduced stress-induced increases in circulating cortisol."

Excerpt From
Excessive Sugar Consumption May Be a Difficult Habit to Break: A View From the Brain and Body
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4454811/


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## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> Hello hugh, I would like to learn your opinion regarding dried fruit consumption.


I'll say it again, 
I'm just some guy who likes to tell people what they are doing wrong, 
doesn't mean i know what i'm talking about......

Short answer - suck it and see.....

I think dried fruit is evil (on it's own that is, a bit mixed into some paleo dish is fine)



Crohn2357 said:


> As I have said before, the only safe starches available to me are white rice and green bananas.


but....


Crohn2357 said:


> I need natural carb alternatives in my diet. Struggling with this.


So, you 'need' variety not carbs?
Do you have any idea of your actual carb consumption?
How 'bout rice syrup - glucose no fructose

A big factor is easily digested carbs so there are less left for the colon bugs, doesn't mean SIBO isn't an issue though



Crohn2357 said:


> though i agree that it is easy to overeat with these things.


Absofuckinlutely.......



Crohn2357 said:


> What do you think about dried berries as a safe carb source? Eating it every day? Once when i learn the exact quantities i tend to eat i will let you know.


Berries are the best fruit for antioxidant/fructose ratio but colourful veggies are even better



Crohn2357 said:


> Possible problems: SIBO, fungal overgrowth, crohn’s flaring up, arthritis, migraine attacks from the fructose, deterioration of oral health,increased inflammation. This is my speculation.


maybe, Dose and individual tolerance related



Crohn2357 said:


> Do you have any cautioning?


go easy, have with low carb foods to buffer Glycemic Load



Crohn2357 said:


> I need natural carb alternatives in my diet. Struggling with this.


I get it ( i fall off the waggon and binge on 'healthy' shit too) but WHY?
- psychological? - emotional?
Not physical



Crohn2357 said:


> Other than this the only carb I eat is 100 grams of white rice ever day. The dried fruit gives me a much-needed energy; but i fear it’s very dangerous to eat it because of its inflammogenic effects. Its  other effects on me are great though: greatly increased energy, mental concentration, motivation, productivity, reduced stress[1] etc.


Why not more rice?
Aim for 150gm of carbs a day and see

Carbs is only one small(?) factor affecting stress...
Have you tried meditation or some other practice (yoga, laughing, excersise etc)?


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## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> I'll say it again,
> I'm just some guy who likes to tell people what they are doing wrong,
> doesn't mean i know what i'm talking about......
> 
> Short answer - suck it and see.....
> 
> I think dried fruit is evil (on it's own that is, a bit mixed into some paleo dish is fine)
> 
> 
> but....
> 
> So, you 'need' variety not carbs?
> Do you have any idea of your actual carb consumption?
> How 'bout rice syrup - glucose no fructose
> 
> A big factor is easily digested carbs so there are less left for the colon bugs, doesn't mean SIBO isn't an issue though
> 
> 
> Absofuckinlutely.......
> 
> 
> Berries are the best fruit for antioxidant/fructose ratio but colourful veggies are even better
> 
> 
> maybe, Dose and individual tolerance related
> 
> 
> go easy, have with low carb foods to buffer Glycemic Load
> 
> 
> I get it ( i fall off the waggon and binge on 'healthy' shit too) but WHY?
> - psychological? - emotional?
> Not physical
> 
> 
> Why not more rice?
> Aim for 150gm of carbs a day and see
> 
> Carbs is only one small(?) factor affecting stress...
> Have you tried meditation or some other practice (yoga, laughing, excersise etc)?


Yeah a few hours after my last edit I came to the same conclusions as you. I have been eating 80-100 grams of white rice and that was the problem. I doubled that amount, and also increased my coconut oil and meat intake. I think this will take care of it. 

At first the fruits made me feel good, but then its effects become reversed: a disturbed, hyper-excited state, even lower productivity and higher stress.

You asked great questions. I could write more but I am not on the PC. I basically agree with everything you said in this post. Thank you for writing.


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## InstantCoffee

The funny thing about natural carbs vs. not is that table sugar is actually low fodmap and I do better on it than I do with a lot of unrefined carbs like rices, quinoa, etc. which are not low fodmap.


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## Crohn2357

White rice is 100% starch, and it gets converted into glucose in the body. AFAIK, starch by itself is not considered as fodmap, fodmaps are short chain carbohydrates.

Table sugar is sucrose which is half glucose and half fructose, theoretically if what you’re reacting to is the fodmaps then you should do worse on the table sugar.

Maybe there are other issues going on that you are not aware of.


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## InstantCoffee

You're right about the grains, I was misremembering, but sucrose is considered low-fodmap by all sources I've checked.


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## Crohn2357

InstantCoffee said:


> You're right about the grains, I was misremembering, but sucrose is considered low-fodmap by all sources I've checked.


These might interest you:

https://www.thepaleomom.com/is-fructose-a-key-player-in-the-rise-of-chronic-health-problems/

https://www.thepaleomom.com/modifying-paleo-for-fodmap-intolerance/


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## Crohn2357

Hello hugh

I have a question for you. 

I have been avoiding mushrooms for years, because yeast in general make my symptoms worse, and I have always thought mushrooms would be bad for me to ingest for that reason. This avoidance is purely on principle, I haven't had a problem with mushrooms experimentally (though I don't have much of an experience, I just cut them from my diet "a priori" years ago). I have always assumed mushrooms could cause yeast build-up in the gut, and that could get into my bloodstream due to leaky gut. 

What do you think about this idea? This is only my speculation, and I want to know your opinion about it. 

Can we say that cooking the mushrooms could destroy the cellular structure (kill the cells) of the mushrooms, and thus prevent the problem from occuring? 

                                   ***

There is also cross-reactivity? 



> Mushrooms
> 
> Mushrooms are members of the fungi family and they can cross-react with Candida, meaning your body and your immune system may confuse them with Candida. This can cause you to have an inflammatory reaction to mushrooms and can interfere with your treatment.


From: https://www.amymyersmd.com/2016/07/9-foods-to-avoid-if-you-have-candida/

It should be noted that Sarah Ballantyne has included mushrooms in AIP diet. If this was a case, she wouldn't include mushrooms into her diet protocol (or, another possibility might be that she doesn't know this).
https://www.thepaleomom.com/start-here/the-autoimmune-protocol/
https://www.thepaleomom.com/wiki/mushroom/

Another opinion:


> Avoid Molds, But Most Mushrooms Are OK
> Much of the worry about fungi (mushrooms) in the diet of Candida sufferers is unwarranted. Mushrooms can be a healthy part of your Candida diet, and in fact their immune-stimulatory properties may be quite helpful. If you are foraging, remember to be careful of poisonous mushrooms. And if you notice any mold growing on your mushrooms, it’s best to throw them away. But in general, mushrooms can be a sensible addition to your eating plan.
> Mold is a different matter. Try to avoid foods that are moldy, including those where mold is an intentional part of the food (like blue cheeses or camembert). Mold simply isn’t a nutritive thing for you to eat, and it can trigger unpleasant allergy symptoms or mold sensitivities. For the same reasons, you should ensure that you don’t have black mold in your house.


From:https://www.thecandidadiet.com/molds-mushrooms-candida/ 

Taxonomy, terminology
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-differences-between-fungi-and-mould 
https://www.bioidea.net/resources/what-are-molds-fungi-mushrooms-and-yeasts/ 
http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-yeast-and-fungus/
https://www.badgut.org/information-centre/health-nutrition/yeast-and-mould-allergy/

Edit: Found this:



> Fungal Infection: In extremely rare cases fruiting fungi have been know to infect immune comprised people (Speller and Maciver 1971; Kern and Uecker 1986). Although most of these fungi are soil inhabitants that infect through wounds, it is likely that all fungi can potentially be harmful to a damaged immune system. These fungi can be more aggressive than the obligate pathogens we are use to, and they can be inordinately difficult to treat. Luckily most of our immune systems will easily take care of those wayward mushroom spores and active mycelium that enter our bodily kingdom. However if you are diabetic, in treatment for cancer, have had an organ transplant or a serious disease like AIDS... you definitely will want to inactivate live mushroom tissue by thoroughly cooking.
> ...
> Science Lesson: You may have heard somewhere along the line that we are more closely related to fungus than plants. Fungi are one of the steps on the evolutionary road from algae to animals... plants veered off on a different route. Some had theorized this was the case by comparing physical traits fungi have in common with the animal kingdom, like chitin cell walls. More recently genetic relationship studies have validated the evolutionary tie between fungi and animals. Our evolutionary kinship is also the reason fungal infections can be very difficult to treat. The fungal metabolism is so similar to ours, it is very difficult to target a fungus without gravely affecting the human host as well.


From: http://everythingmushrooms.com/a-few-reasons-to-cook-the-mushrooms-you-eat/


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## hugh

Crohn2357 said:


> I have been avoiding mushrooms for years, because yeast in general make my symptoms worse, and I have always thought mushrooms would be bad for me to ingest for that reason. This avoidance is purely on principle, I haven't had a problem with mushrooms experimentally (though I don't have much of an experience, I just cut them from my diet "a priori" years ago). I have always assumed mushrooms could cause yeast build-up in the gut, and that could get into my bloodstream due to leaky gut.
> What do you think about this idea? This is only my speculation, and I want to know your opinion about it.
> Can we say that cooking the mushrooms could destroy the cellular structure (kill the cells) of the mushrooms, and thus prevent the problem from occuring?


Once again. - i’m just some guy who likes to share his opinion about food online, doesn’t mean I know anything……

That said, i don't come to the same conclusion....

Obviously if you try mushrooms and notice any worsening of anything then stop immediately….
Some people react to yeast, so they should avoid mushrooms or test carefully,
Some people can’t digest them and may have digestive distress,
And who knows, some might have problems that take longer to present…...

But if I said don’t ingest any bacteria because a particular bacteria was harmful then you would see that it is obviously false, likewise ‘don’t eat any fungus because this one is bad’  doesn’t make any sense at all.
I put more credence in the theory that beneficial yeasts could be used to out-compete harmful ones. [1]

All that being said, we are talking about a completely different thing.
 Mushrooms are NOT food for fungus/yeast, so if there is an intolerance/reaction then avoid, but that applies to all foods.
Many mushrooms have medicinal qualities, but do your own research and test with caution….[2]
Cooking is a good idea because it kills any other soil based potential pathogens and the fungus itself as well as making them more digestible.

short answer - suck it and see......

[1] *Study: Good Yeast vs. Bad Yeast, the Differences Unveiled*
_“Currently, it’s common practice to use Saccharomyces to produce drugs against Candida.”_
https://www.rdmag.com/article/2016/10/study-good-yeast-vs-bad-yeast-differences-unveiled

not sure how all the science stacks up (hype vs. efficacy etc), just that overall seems to be a positive for many intestinal complaints but not hugely so.
_*
Top 9 Proven Health Benefits of Saccharomyces Boulardii (S. boulardii)*_
https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/s-boulardii/#S_boulardii_is_Beneficial_in_Crohn's_Disease

[2]  keep in mind this is an add for a product…...
*Revolutionize Your Health with SurThrival’s Medicinal Mushroom Extracts*
_”The amazing health benefits of mushrooms are primarily attributable to two classes of nutrients: triterpenes and polysaccharides.
Trierpenes are compounds with powerful adaptogenic properties — they help the body deal with stress by regulating and normalizing bodily functions. Triterpenes also increase oxygen uptake and support liver health and detoxification.
Research has shown that certain polysaccharides found in medicinal mushrooms, called beta-glucans, have the ability to modulate the immune system by lowering the overactive (auto-immune) immune system, and stimulating the under-active (immuno-deficient) immune system. When used for a period of time, beta-glucans build, strengthen and balance the immune system. Beta-glucans have received a lot of attention recently for their anti-cancer potential, as the connection between immune function and cancer has become increasingly accepted in the medical world.”_
http://www.liveinthenow.com/article/how-to-use-medicinal-mushrooms-to-achieve-optimal-health


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## Crohn2357

Thanks. I should send you a check as a consultation fee.


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## sam128

keto diet is actually the worst diet ever. believe me! best lose weight pills 2018


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## hugh

sam128 said:


> keto diet is actually the worst diet ever.


because.....?


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## sam128

hugh said:


> because.....?


because i was constantly angry and hungry and seen no results at all


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## NyellBarnet

sam128 said:


> because i was constantly angry and hungry and seen no results at all


 because.??????:ywow:


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## InstantCoffee

sam128 said:


> because i was constantly angry and hungry and seen no results at all


Sounds like you didn't fully convert to ketosis


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## Crohn2357

hugh said:


> i get sheep fat and render it to cook with.
> lots and lots of sheep fat , and lots of coconut fat......


Started doing this.

https://paleoleap.com/rendering-fat/

I use the wet rendering, because it seems healthier than dry rendering.

Rendered sheep fat is a good alternative to coconut oil.


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## sam128

Crohn2357 said:


> Started doing this.
> 
> https://paleoleap.com/rendering-fat/
> 
> I use the wet rendering, because it seems healthier than dry rendering.
> 
> Rendered sheep fat is a good alternative to coconut oil.


Thanks, i will also check it, but coconut oil is still #1 oil for me. fitness muscle building


----------



## sam128

hugh said:


> Once again. - i’m just some guy who likes to share his opinion about food online, doesn’t mean I know anything……
> 
> That said, i don't come to the same conclusion....
> ketogenic keto fat burners
> Obviously if you try mushrooms and notice any worsening of anything then stop immediately…. bcaa aminos
> Some people react to yeast, so they should avoid mushrooms or test carefully,whey hemp pea powder for vegans
> Some people can’t digest them and may have digestive distress,
> And who knows, some might have problems that take longer to present…...best natural steroids
> 
> But if I said don’t ingest any bacteria because a particular bacteria was harmful then you would see that it is obviously false, likewise ‘don’t eat any fungus because this one is bad’  doesn’t make any sense at all.
> I put more credence in the theory that beneficial yeasts could be used to out-compete harmful ones. [1]bodybuilding supplements
> 
> All that being said, we are talking about a completely different thing.
> Mushrooms are NOT food for fungus/yeast, so if there is an intolerance/reaction then avoid, but that applies to all foods.
> Many mushrooms have medicinal qualities, but do your own research and test with caution….[2]
> Cooking is a good idea because it kills any other soil based potential pathogens and the fungus itself as well as making them more digestible.
> 
> short answer - suck it and see......
> 
> [1] *Study: Good Yeast vs. Bad Yeast, the Differences Unveiled*
> _“Currently, it’s common practice to use Saccharomyces to produce drugs against Candida.”_
> https://www.rdmag.com/article/2016/10/study-good-yeast-vs-bad-yeast-differences-unveiled
> 
> not sure how all the science stacks up (hype vs. efficacy etc), just that overall seems to be a positive for many intestinal complaints but not hugely so.
> _*
> Top 9 Proven Health Benefits of Saccharomyces Boulardii (S. boulardii)*_
> https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/s-boulardii/#S_boulardii_is_Beneficial_in_Crohn's_Disease
> 
> [2]  keep in mind this is an add for a product…...
> *Revolutionize Your Health with SurThrival’s Medicinal Mushroom Extracts*
> _”The amazing health benefits of mushrooms are primarily attributable to two classes of nutrients: triterpenes and polysaccharides.
> Trierpenes are compounds with powerful adaptogenic properties — they help the body deal with stress by regulating and normalizing bodily functions. Triterpenes also increase oxygen uptake and support liver health and detoxification.
> Research has shown that certain polysaccharides found in medicinal mushrooms, called beta-glucans, have the ability to modulate the immune system by lowering the overactive (auto-immune) immune system, and stimulating the under-active (immuno-deficient) immune system. When used for a period of time, beta-glucans build, strengthen and balance the immune system. Beta-glucans have received a lot of attention recently for their anti-cancer potential, as the connection between immune function and cancer has become increasingly accepted in the medical world.”_
> http://www.liveinthenow.com/article/how-to-use-medicinal-mushrooms-to-achieve-optimal-health


guys, is dairy good for my health or not?


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## hugh

sam128 said:


> guys, is dairy good for my health or not?


Dairy may be problematic for different people for different reasons.
Without doing an elimination diet (like SCD or FODMAPS of AIP etc) you wont know if you tolerate it or not.
Dairy can have sugars (lactose) that people cant digest, leading to gas, bloating etc and proteins that cause issues (apparently similar to lactose intolerance).

SCD recommends a particular style of yougurt but many find dairy (particularly milk and less often hard cheese and butters) should be avoided and reintroduced latter when everything is settled


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## Crohn2357

I think it is good for health if you are able to digest it without having health problems. Many people have issues with dairy, but many other people can consume them without any issues and those can benefit from dairy I think. Doing an elimination diet is the best way to learn about your body's tolerance to foods in my opinion.


----------

