# MMR vaccine linked to Crohn's & Autism



## D Bergy

Study links Crohn's Disease and Autism to MMR Vaccine, and 28 other studies support this link.  

One would think this kind of solid evidence would have the FDA looking further into this link, but we obviously do not go by evidence based medicine, and there is no clearer evidence of that than the reaction Dr Wakefield's findings caused.

The U.S. is not the only country ignoring the evidence either.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/04/10/wakefield-interview.aspx

Dan


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## Lydia

Oh yeah, I totally skipped that one for my daughter. I more afraid of her getting crohns than I am of her getting measles. (Please dont judge me, I know its a sensitive topic.)


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## merrywidow

in 1998 when it was big news in the uk, my doctor advised me not to give our son the second MMR jab, due to my crohns, so he never has had the 2nd one.

if i had another child, not likely, i would seek proven advice before i make up my mind.


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## Hedgehog

Thanks Dan, really interesting. The profit motive wins out every time. I work in academia and the funding mechanisms really bias research. I was also interested in the brain-body connection...Western medicine is compartmentalised into areas originating in medieval times - you'd think docs would join up their thinking more!
Gail


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## kenny

from : http://www.vaccineinformation.org/measles/qandavax.asp


> Does the MMR vaccine cause autism?
> There is no scientific evidence that measles, MMR, or any other vaccine causes autism. The question about a possible link between MMR vaccine and autism has been extensively reviewed by independent groups of experts in the U.S. including the National Academy of Sciences' Institute of Medicine. These reviews have concluded that the available epidemiologic evidence does not support a causal link between MMR vaccine and autism.
> 
> The MMR-autism theory had its origins in research by Andrew Wakefield and colleagues in England. They suggested that inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) is linked to persistent viral infection. In 1993, Wakefield and colleagues reported isolating measles virus in the intestinal tissue of persons with IBD. The validity of this finding was later called into question when it could not be reproduced by other researchers.
> 
> The studies that suggest a cause-and-effect relationship exists between MMR vaccine and autism have received a lot of attention by the media. However, these studies have significant weaknesses and are far outweighed by many population studies that have consistently failed to show a causal relationship between MMR vaccine and autism. In addition, the findings were further discredited when an investigation found that Wakefield did not disclose he was being funded for his research by lawyers seeking evidence to use against vaccine manufacturers.


from the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/Index.html


> Some people believe increased exposure to thimerosal (from the addition of important new vaccines recommended for children) explains the higher prevalence in recent years. However, evidence from several studies examining trends in vaccine use and changes in autism frequency does not support such an association. Furthermore, a scientific review by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) concluded that "the evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines an autism." CDC supports the IOM conclusion.



CCDR Canadian gvt on the subject


> The evidence does not support a causal association between MMR vaccination and autism. Although there may be biologic plausibility for an association, there is a lack of evidence in five of the classic attributes of causality: consistency, strength of the association, specificity, dose response and experimental evidence. Whereas the risks of disease and complications of disease in the unvaccinated are known and real, the role of MMR vaccination as an initiator, or promoter, of autism remains unsubstantiated. The results of this review support the remarkable safety record of MMR vaccine. This, along with the demonstrable effectiveness of MMR vaccine in virtually eliminating these diseases in Canada, provide powerful evidence in support of universal infant MMR vaccination programs.


http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/01vol27/dr2708ea.html

I guess a lot of the trouble was this study revolved around 12 children. Others using more chilren cant seem to find any link, even the ones claimed that they did in that wakefield interview.


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## kenny

I would like to see this guy continue his research but I think he messed up when he (by his own admission) told these handful of parents who were not seeking litigation to look at it when he was still trying to test a theory.

Edit: btw in this interview the guy actually says "We never said that MMR causes Autism" We just said it might.


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## kenny

Sorry to keep adding to this but I wanted to highlight another part from the Canadian govt report on the Wakefield study.



> The study had several major methodologic shortcomings including: a sample size too small to assess statistical significance, selection bias from use of a highly select patient population that was not generalizable, and absence of a control group. The study was highly susceptible to the recall bias of parental reporting, and the investigators were unable to provide corroborative microbiologic evidence to support their hypothesis. This study provides little evidence to support a hypothesis that MMR vaccination causes autism.


I am all for more investigation on Crohns and other disease but I think everyone was jumping at shadows with respect to Crohns disease and MMR.


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## Lydia

I read the Dr Sears Vaccine Book. He is a very popular pediatrician in North America. I found it to be a very middle of the road point of veiw of vaccines. Its not pro-vaccine and its not anti-vaccine. Its a very good resource for new parents. I definitely believe that children are over-vaccinated and its very profit driven for both the doctors and pharmaceutical companies. 

Vaccines are linked to autoimmunity. This goes beyond crohns and beyond wakefields study. There have been cases in vaccine court that have been won over auto immune disease. Many surgeons will skip the rubella vaccine becuse of its association to rhumatoid arthritis. Their career is screwed if they get RA so that is understandable. There is a study in mice that shows repeated injections with antigens and adjuvents trigger autoimmuntiy. Its too bad they didnt research this in people before they started putting this into children on a mass scale. They have never done any studies on the long term effects of vaccines. They never looked into how it affects children, one, ten or twenty years later. Every other drug has to have long term effects researched. They are following peoples long term health on remicade for example, because they have to. 

Its scary. I am not anti vaccine. I feel that a parent has the right to choose the best way to keep their child healthy. I could not imagine a world where parents could not vaccinate their child if that what they really wanted, just like I could not imagine a world where they can force me to vaccinate my child. I am pro informed consent and pro health freedom.


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## rasone77

Chrons' was first recorded in 1932 which was nearly 20 years before the first Vaccine (Polio) was distributed on a massive scale. In addition the MMR Vaccine didn't even become a standard practice until 1971; in the 1960's 2-4 in 100,000 were diagnosed with the disease without the aid of modern technical advances.  

Any increases in the amount of reported diseases can be attributed to the fact that our diagnostic technology is 50 or 60 times better than it was in the 60's. I fail to see how vaccines are "causing" Chrons'. If you're going to blame it on anything blame it on the advances in sanitation and food preparation (FDA founded in 1937) and water purification (Started in New York in the late 1890's); which are far more likely to cause Chrons due to the relative time of implementation vs when the disease was discovered.  

Don't deny your children medicine that will prevent them from getting sick and dying just because some guy is claiming such and such without sufficient evidence to back it up. I find it strange that his study was so selective and small while others were far more broad and representative of a general population. I mean seriously, if you sample just people at high risk for these diseases based on their family history it's far more likely that genetics is causing this than the vaccine.  (You're not going to find very many Rhino's in your Breeding population if all you have in the zoo are Elephants.) All in all I'd say this study is poorly thought out at best.


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## D Bergy

Yes, if you ignore the 28 studies that indicate a relationship, you certainly would come to the conclusion that the connection is not valid.  It is pretty easy to come to any conclusion you set out to find by excluding contrary findings.

Since Novartis Vaccines & Merck both help fund the Immunization Action Coalition, any information they put out is suspect, since they it is not good policy to "bite the hand that feeds you".

If you listen to the report he gives, he points out the fact that the only study that anyone ever points to is his original study, not the following studies he did that were more specific, and thorough, since the original study was not designed to prove anything, but point to a possible link.

He is not an anti-vaccine advocate, he is suggesting that the combined MMR vaccine causes problems that the single vaccine does not.  I guess if there is any question about it, and I had a young child, I would get the single dose vaccine, since he has found no evidence that this one causes problems.

I guess that is the real question, would you stake you child's health on the combined MMR vaccine, if  vaccine with a longer, proven track record is available to you? 

Dan


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## rasone77

^ This still belies the point that Chrons was being diagnosed in large numbers of individuals for nearly 40 years before the combined MMR vaccine even existed. How do you explain that?


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## D Bergy

He never proposed that the MMR vaccine was the only cause of Crohn's, only one possible cause.  He has said there is a possible link that needs further study.  It is not conclusive, nor did he propose that it was, but when the evidence points to a possible link, it should not be buried, but explored to its conclusion one way or another.  He was smeared for simply suggesting a possible link based on his findings and others studies that also indicate the same possibility. 

There is still a genetic predisposition to acquiring the disease.  If you do not have that genetic make up, I doubt you could get the disease from an MMR vaccination.  The problem is that you do not necessarily know in advance if you are predisposed to developing the disease.

I think a better question is why was the single dose Measle vaccine eliminated from the UK after there was a question raised about the possible side effects from the combined MMR?  Would you do that if there was any question about it?  Was it good practice to assume he was wrong, before it had been proven one way or another?

Is it right to stake our children's health without any real reason to do so. After all there was an alternative available prior to that decision.  Does this seem like a reasonable thing to do under those circumstances?  

Dan


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## bogman

I looked through all of the articles and none of them apparently are connected to vaccines and autism or Crohn's. I don't see how any of these are connected. One suggests in the abstract that antimicrobials might cause intestinal problems in kids with autism. That biblio doesn't prove much.


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## rasone77

And to add something about your second point. Being his subsequent 28 additional studies done after the first that no one mentions. 

I don't know what you do for a living but I'm an undergrad in Chemical Engineering and have been working in the research laboratory so I have quite a bit of insight into how scientific research is conducted.  

First of all, an initial study like the one he did is never done to "not" prove anything. Before any research is actually conducted a plan is developed that ensures that three primary criteria are met (this ensures that funding is not wasted). 1) Study's must be generalized and repeatable 2) They must not contain biased or non empirical evidence. 3) The research must be designed to solve a problem or prove that a phenomena exists. His original research did not follow this protocol (even by his own admission on number 3). When scientists are discovered that present research which violates these protocols they are not viewed seriously from that point forward with good cause since their scientific technique is flawed. 

Also understand that any type of research is not done for free and requires some sort funding. My theory is that this guy latched on to the anti-vaccine movement and decided (using his science) that he could get funding by producing a study that showed a negative link to vaccines. He did so with this highly skewed initial study which was designed to produce specific results. This enabled him to get the further funding needed to do another 27 studies on the matter all of which I'm sure received an ample amount of funding. 

Now I'm not saying that he's the only one that has some money to gain by what he's doing but the fact that his initial study does not follow scientific research protocol leads me to believe that money for research was his chief motivation for doing the original study, this alone invalidates further research done by him.


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## Lydia

I find it very suspicious that they stopped making the single measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines. It took away all freedom of choice. I know many parents that would have done them separately, but when backed into a corner of all or none they chose none. 

Its like smoking. Smoking causes most cases of lung cancer and yet there are people who have never smoked with lung cancer. Way back, you couldnt even prove smoking caused lung cancer until they chose to do an unbiased study.

Also, try not to throw your educational background around, as it has no weight on the internet. You are not the only educated person here. We are all adults capable of informing ourselves. I dont need nanny government telling me how it is. Its called personal accountability. I am fully accountable for my decisions. The pharmaceutical companies however are not accountable. A parent can not collect a single dime from them in the event a vaccine injures or kills their child. If you dont believe it happens, look up VAERS reports. 

I am not denying my child anything. I am choosing a different path to health. Everyone has a right to do so. There are plenty of things that mainstream parents do today that I would never do to my child. Things that increase the risk of disease and illness many times over, but hey they fully vaccinate so they must be ok right? I understand public healths point of veiw though. They cant make moms breastfeed, serve a whole foods diet, exercise or choose less toxic products, but they can do a one size fits all vaccine schedule that gets to almost everyone and thats all they really have. Its never been health care, its always been sick care with toxic prophylaxis.


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## D Bergy

If what you are contending was accurate, his study would have been rejected on the face of it, since it was peer reviewed to begin with.  That is the purpose of the review to cull out poor studies, prior to publication.

Of course, you would hope that a study would lead to a conclusion, but initial studies are usually done to see if further study is warranted.  They are rarely conclusive by medical standards.  If nothing is found then that is pretty much the end of it, and it is published regardless.  I have read many studies that lead to nothing more than, substance A did not improve the condition of disease B.

To retroactively pull the study from a publication can only mean that no one is really reviewing the study, it was false and never done in the first place, (it has happened) or it was pulled due to reasons other than his study methods.  He went on the record that they wanted him to retract the possibility of a connection.  I do not know how you can retract a possibility before it is proven.  It is an absurd demand on the face of it.

The other twenty eight studies were not his, but various other studies done in several countries.  He did do additional studies, but the ones referenced in the article are not his.

He is not anti-vaccine, and I have never heard of a single person being funded by a anti-vaccine movement.  There simply is no money from that small corner of the world.  Anyone who is portrayed as anti-vaccine is vilified, and that is why he was portrayed in that light, although it was not accurate to begin with.  He simply stated that he could not recommend the combined MMR to his patients. He did recommend the single measles vaccination.   He is not the only doctor that has that recommendation, but he is the one who dared to say it in a press conference.

Dan


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## Creepy Lurker

> In                             the light of these discoveries, the                             case was overwhelming to dig deeper                             into Wakefield's findings. In an                             exercise never before accomplished by                             a journalist, Deer was able to go                             behind the face of the 1998 paper,                             identify the subjects, and access                             original patient data. Penetrating                             veils of medical confidentiality, he                             discovered that the hospital's                             clinicians and pathology service had                             found nothing to implicate MMR, but                             that Wakefield had repeatedly changed and                             misreported diagnoses,                             histories and descriptions of the                             children, which made it appear that                             the syndrome had been discovered.


http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm




> He was being paid to conduct the study by solicitors representing  parents who believed their children had been harmed by MMR, and failed  to disclose this in his application to the Ethical Practices  Sub-Committee of the Royal Free  Hampstead NHS Trust.[24]
> He ordered investigations "without the requisite paediatric  qualifications".
> Acting "dishonestly and irresponsibly" in failing to disclose how  patients were recruited for the study, and that some were paid to take  part.
> Performing colonoscopies, colon biopsies and lumbar punctures ("spinal taps") on his research subjects  without proper approval and contrary to the children's clinical  interests, when these diagnostic tests were not indicated by the  children's symptoms or medical history.
> Conducting the study on a basis which was not approved by the  hospital's ethics committee.
> Purchasing blood samples - for £5 each - from children present at  his son's birthday party, as described by Wakefield himself in a  videotaped public conference.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield#Professional_misconduct_charges



This is not the type of man who you should bring into an argument.  He's been proven a fraud and shown to be morally ambiguous. 
As far as I know he's still suspended.  After watching this through from the start I personally hope he loses his licence to practice.

Mercola is little better.

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html



They are both prime examples showing what happens when doctors focus on money, rather than medicine.


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## bogman

I thought it weird that the 28 articles have from what I can tell have nothing to do with the vaccine and Crohn's or autism. I looked through each one. It makes me leery.


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## rasone77

^Yeah, I'm going with the referenced information of this one. Thanks for the post, I knew there was a reason his studies weren't taken seriously. The scientific community doesn't just ignore research with out a reason.


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## Lydia

You dont need wakefields studies to prove that big pharma doesnt have childrens best interest at heart. They just have a better PR dept and have more lawyers. Its not just about crohns or just about autism, its about them wanting us to do whats "good for society", without any accountability. They are not accountable for hot lots, contamination, extra viruses, injury, or death. Why should parents have to put that stuff in their child when nobody is accountable? You know what the govt will give you for a proven death? A measly 200,000 dollars. For a DEATH. And thats if you can prove it. If it doesnt happen right in the clinic you will have a hell of time proving it and they will likely call it crib death.

The scientific communtiy is ignoring thousands of parents right now, who saw their kids forever change within days of getting their MMR shots. Its so sad. They are called liars or worse after they trusted the scientific community with their childs health. Nobody is helping them, nobody.


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## Creepy Lurker

The man is pretty much universally despised by all healthcare staff over here (Nurses, EMTs, Doctors...).  Shortly after his 'research' was released (and repeatedly pushed by early morning TV shows that mothers tend to watch before taking their kids to school), measles mortality rate for children shot up.  In my mind, he's personally responsible for every avoidable death.

*phew* Am getting a bit over-heated over here


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## rasone77

Lydia, I hate Insurance companies and for profit organizations with a passion.  I agree that they only care about money and not what's best for children or society in general. However, I look at every piece of information available not at face value or just believe it  because it fits in with what I personally believe. If this guy was credible I'd be more than happy to roast Big Pharma with every can of gasoline I can find. Wakefield is a kook, period. 

If you want to champion a cause you don't take every little piece of information you can find and use it support your claims; if you have just one bad source it can call your whole operation into question.  To be credible you need to analyze every study, article and idea that you plan to use to support your argument this way you only use the scientifically credible information and actually look like you know what you're talking about. When people spout every study that supports their views without the fact check they look like uninformed crackpots with an agenda. 

I want corporate accountability more than most people in the world but I find the zealots to be less than scrutinizing when it comes to the examples and studies they use to fight the cause. Using falsified and misleading sources only makes it harder to get your goals accomplished.


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## Lydia

I have been saying its not Wakefield's study that alarms me. Its the other connections with vaccines and autoimmunity that alarm me. 

I am not convinced Wakefield is tha bad man the mainstream media is making him out to be, but I understand how bad it looks on the surface, so I personally dont quote his findings as there are 100 better examples out there. I dont blame parents for backing him up either because he was one of the only ones to listen to parents when they said that shot effed up their kid. 

Being on a huge parenting forum, I have seen doctors so caught up with vaccinating a child they they will tell a parent to still bring their child in for a booster after their kid had a seizure on the floor after their shot. If any other drug gave a kid a seizure they would tell the parent to stop taking that drug. This is what parents are up against. You cant question vaccines for any reason. In the states there are doctors that will kick you out of their practice if you dont do the full schedule. The schedule has twice as many vaccines on it as it did when I was a kid. Its rediculous.

Why do I have to use studies for anything? I should just be able to make this decision just like the parents who decide to fully vaccinate. Do you think they read any studies before they bring their child in? They just do it because they think thats what you are supposed to do. 

Parents can openly talk about bringing their kid in to get their shots, and how they cried or had a fever for a week, but if I even so much as mention that I dont do that or I skipped some, they look at me I like I just said I beat the crap out of my kid.

Gardasil is a perfect example. Both Spain and India took it out of their program when girls started dying. The US has had about 50 reported deaths and they still push that shot like its the new pair of shoes every girl must have. Japan is another country that doesnt push the vaccine issue and they have a huge vaccination rate. They dont vaccinate till age one and they still have a low infant mortality rate. They pull any suspect vaccines off the market right away and their citizens actually trust the government. 

Look what you did to me. lol. You made me go off on a tanget.


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## kenny

> 2006, measles killed 242,000 children worldwide.


http://www.medicinenet.com/measles_rubeola/article.htm


> According to the World Health Organization (WHO), measles is a leading cause of vaccine-preventable childhood mortality. Worldwide, the fatality rate has been significantly reduced by a vaccination campaign led by partners in the Measles Initiative: the American Red Cross, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the United Nations Foundation, UNICEF and the World Health Organization (WHO). Globally, measles fell 60% from an estimated 873,000 deaths in 1999 to 345,000 in 2005.[18] Estimates for 2008 indicate deaths fell further to 164,000 globally, with 77% of the remaining measles deaths in 2008 occurring within the South-East Asian region.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles#History


> Key facts
> Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
> In 2008, there were 164 000 measles deaths globally – nearly 450 deaths every day or 18 deaths every hour.
> More than 95% of measles deaths occur in low-income countries with weak health infrastructures.
> Measles vaccination resulted in a 78% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2008 worldwide.
> In 2008, about 83% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 72% in 2000.


http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/


I can totally see what you are saying about having a choice Lydia. And I agree that further research needs to continue. But I think it is important to look at the bigger picture. There is a pretty darn good chance of a child being seriously affected by these diseases than any negative impact of the vaccine. But without the research continuing we will not fully understand that negative impact or be able to work on it. 

The thing is people jumping on remote possibilities. If you read the retraction the 10 out of 13 Doctors expressed concerns that the public was making a mistake in trying to interpret the situation and the publication caused harm to the general population, NOT help. Of course many people will prefer to believe that these other doctors just did that out of self preservation. People are entitled to believe what they want. Presenting multiple points of view is always good and creates discussion that helps people make decisions.


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## rasone77

I'm sorry Lydia but 50 deaths out of the millions that have taken the shot is far too low of a sample. HPV will likely kill or seriously reduce the quality of life for far more than 50 girls over the same time period. I'd also like to see a source on that figure.

Also, let me ask you a question. Knowing what it's like to live with Chrons, what if a drug company came out with a vaccine or some sort of preventative measure that gave 99.99% immunity to the disease for any offspring of someone with Chrons but there was a slight (less than .000001 percent chance of serious illness or death). Would you give them the shot knowing that if you didn't they were 80% likely to get Chrons later in life?


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## Astra

As you may know, or not know, I teach kids with Autistic Spectrum Disorders, and this old chesnut has been running since 1997 when the BBC programme Newsnight ran an item on the possible links with Autism and MMR vaccine.  That day 29/7/97 the Government had announced an inquiry into the alleged new evidence.  The Royal Free Hospital research team in London were the first to hypophesise the link of the triple vaccine to Autism and Crohns disease; but were reluctant to discuss their preliminary findings on the programme.  Prof Roy Pounder of the Royal Free Hospital was quoted as saying 'No one can give parents a sensible answer until we know what's happening'
On the programme was Jackie Fletcher, a parent who set up J.A.B.S (justice, awareness, basic support) after she came to believe her own son has been damaged by the vaccine.  The Dept of Health who wanted to intervene in this new evidence whilst still campaigning to promote the vaccine say that the research linking MMR to Autism has been dismissed by the World Health Organisation and that the vaccine has an excellent health record.
The MMR vaccine provides protection against measles, mumps and rubella and whilst quite rare in the UK, there are still health risks from the diseases such as brain damage and gut damage.
Now my point - Ten years ago, as part of my dissertation at Uni, I conducted a parental survey (at my school)  regarding the vaccine and Crohns and the link with Autism, out of 79 children in my school, only a small percentage of them had the MMR vaccine, and of those who didn't, they had Crohns disease.
Autism is a developmental disorder, and has been around for centuries, they used to lock these people in institutions and throw away the key! No-one had a name for it until 1943/44 and many theories (too many to list here)have been suggested to account for Autism and in reality, no such answer exists.
My children have had the vaccine, and all my neices and nephews, they haven't got Autism or Crohns. I would advocate the vaccine but in my opinion
There should be a call to ban the current cocktail of 3 live viruses at the same time and revert back to the old system of separate immunisation to alleviate parents anxieties.


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## phillycrohns

I just want to thank everyone for posting their thoughts about this.  I plan on starting a family in the next few years, so all of this information and your different viewpoints are very helpful.  And I currently know very little about the MMR/Autism/AutoImmune disease debate.  Regardless of ones views on the subject, this kind of dialogue is helpful to us all because I believe that we have to be active and knowledgable participants in managing our health and the health of our families and children.  Unfortunately, "money" and "fame" can corrupt even the best of people.  For that reason we have to look at everything done in the name of science and for the benefit of the public with a critical eye and make the best decision possible with the information we have.  

Thanks,
Chris


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## RachLG

Lydia, I appreciate where you're coming from that parents should be able to make choices for their own children.  However, what you choose for your daughter may not only affect her life, but the lives of her peers.  It is a commonly used argument in support of vaccination, but it's a good one because there are some parents who literally are not given the choice - they're children cannot be vaccinated; the very young, the immunosuppressed...Vaccines are not really to benefit individuals but rather communities - I think you'd jump to vaccinate your child if you had lived through a plague. I am one to agree with rasone that we are seeing more instances of diseases because we're looking for them now and have the ability to diagnose.  And parents who are lost and helpless because their children have incurable diseases are looking for something to find solid ground (rightfully so) - but blame often offers relief from that lost feeling. 

If you're choosing for your child, please make an informed decision that takes more into account than 1-sided risks.  I find it incredibly ironic that many parents are so latched on to this vaccination issue, but then after the doctors appointment where they adamantly said NO, they took they're kiddo to McDonalds.  Lydia, I am sure you will tell me that you only feed your child organic, which is great and again it's your choice....but this is yet another area where we're starting to see long tern affects of things like increase estrogen in diets.  

Agreeing with many others here, I too struggled to find the definite "support" those 28 articles were meant to offer.

And lastly, just a little side note: please don't compare vaccinations to smoking - as far as I know, there's not a whole lot of good that comes from smoking and it actually not only hurts the smokers but also the ones around them.  Vaccinations DO have their benefits (do you worry every day about your daughter getting polio? count your lucky stars!) and not partaking can hurt others around you.  Our knowledge of vaccinations is not like our initial lack of awareness regarding the health risks of cigarettes - we don't use vaccinations because we're fun and free, they serve a very important purpose.


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## D Bergy

Lots of good discussion, and I think that is a usefull thing to do.

I do not believe that all vaccinations are useless, I do think some are, but I do not like the lack of long term studies that should look at the long term effects of single vaccinations, and the combined effect of so many at an early age.

I think the more confidence we can have in the dosing schedule and the individual vaccinations, the better off we will be.  For the subtle effects these can have, honest studies are the only way to determine the risk/benefit ratio.

Thank you all for your good arguements on either side of the issue.

Dan


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## bogman

Better studies are always welcome.


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## Rebecca85

Personally, I believe that autistic spectrum disorders (asd) are one of those disorders where there is a genetic susceptibility combined with an environmental trigger. So the mmr may have triggered the asd but didn't necessarily cause it. If it hadn't been the mmr triggering the asd something else could well have later in life.


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## Dexky

I realize that just such discussion is the engine that has driven the research that has made this possible but in 100 yrs the avg life expectancy increased by 30 yrs.

http://wps.ablongman.com/wps/media/objects/3817/3908609/Appendix/15.pdf


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## DustyKat

I guess the thing for parents to bear in mind when making an informed choice regarding immunisation isn't to focus only on the apparent side effects with the vaccine being considered but also the risks of not being immunised. I'm not suggesting people aren't doing this but over the years of watching this debate I do notice an emphasis on the side effects of the vaccine as opposed to the side effects of not vaccinating.

Perhaps my views are skewed here as I worked for a number of years in a children's infectious diseases ward. The pain and suffering was overwhelming from both the child and the parent with the regularly voiced statement - I had no idea this could happen. Do we look to the past, to the era of our parents, grandparents or even in our own time in third world countries ........... when the death of a child from infectious disease is a given, it is expected ............ or they are left with a legacy for the rest of their life as those with Crohns are. 

This is such a personal and difficult decision and the best we can do is weigh up all the pro and cons and make the best possible decision based on those facts and our beliefs at that given time.


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## Entchen

Children receive vaccines at about the same age as they begin to show signs of ASD (autism spectrum disorder). About 1 in 150 children have ASD; given that there are 365 days in a year and there is a fairly limited time span during which children receive their various vaccines, on any given day the statistical likelihood of a child somewhere in the US (or Canada, Aus., etc.) both receiving a vaccine and showing signs of ASD is actually quite high.  Correllation does not always equal causation. Sometimes it does, but I would respectfully put forth that the latest literature suggests that, in this instance, the relationship is due to a third factor variable (child's age, essentially) rather than the presence of a causative relationship. This isn't to say that I do not believe that many diseases fit a diathesis-stress model, in which genes and environment interact to produce disease (and this is consistent with some research on Crohn's, as we all know). It might be that autism fits this model, too... but, the evidence at the present time does not suggest that the environmental trigger in this diathesis-stress model is a vaccine.


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## Crohns08

Considering I didn't have my first flare until after my meningitis vaccination, I definitely do believe there is a link between vaccinations and auto immune diseases.


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## YogaGirl

Wow.  I had the MMR vaccine just after I got married because my ob/gyn recommended it prior to getting pregnant.  It was soon after that I was diagnosed with Crohns.  

I am not against immunizations, as I had my daughter fully immunized, but they do scare me.  If I ever find the culprit for this disease, I will, well, I don't know what I will do.  But I will definitely be really really mad.  Really mad.  This has taken so much away from my life.  I always try to stay positive, but man, if some company or medication caused this......ugh.


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## HalfHeartedHeroine

Hi!  While I don't personally think that my Crohn's was caused by vaccinations (my sister had all the same shots as I did), this topic was actually the final debate of my Immunology class!  I find it fascinating!  One link that we used in our research of the topic was a comic by Darryl Cunningham, called "The Facts in the Case of Dr. Andrew Wakefield" (I can't post links yet, since I haven't hit 10 posts yet)

One issue I struggle with in understanding the possible connection between Crohn's and any vaccine is the time delays between administering a vaccine vs. when the patient develops symptoms.  (Although not all cases could be caused by vaccines)  In my personal experience, I hadn't had any vaccines in more than a year before my symptoms started.  I would love to know about other studies not connected to Wakefield that include a larger sample size.  Any suggested reading?


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## DustyKat

Viewpoints aside: 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-22/epidemic-illustrates-dangers-of-not-vaccinating/4644938


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## hugh

Rebecca85 said:


> Personally, I believe that autistic spectrum disorders (asd) are one of those disorders where there is a genetic susceptibility combined with an environmental trigger. So the mmr may have triggered the asd but didn't necessarily cause it. If it hadn't been the mmr triggering the asd something else could well have later in life.


so it's ok? "you might have been going to get it if you were exposed to another trigger so don't blame me because i gave you this trigger"

if autism doesn't develop early in life then it just doesn't develop.

I can understand the howls of protest and outrage at making conclusions, but the simple two step theory is very robust and has not been disproved,

The theory is that vaccines may be one of many things that adversely affect the gut biology (and therefore the immune system), which in some people will lead to autism (and in others will lead to other illnesses)

That theories are both well supported by available evidence. Google it for yourself

to quote Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride (creator of the GAPS diet)
_"So, my conclusion is that while MMR and other vaccines may not be the cause of autism, in immune compromised children they can do a lot of harm and in some children may well provide the trigger which starts the disorder."_
http://gapsdiet.com/uploads/MMR.pdf

If you are concerned then take GAPS style supportive regime or don't get the vaccine done. ( i did not vaccinate my child and am very comfortable with that decision.)


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## my little penguin

Hugh 
this is a very old post/thread
So you probably wont get a response.

the only reason it was raised was due to the current outbreak of measles in the UK due to lack of vaccination .


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## DustyKat

> ( i did not vaccinate my child and am very comfortable with that decision. The herd can look after itself, baaaaaaaa)


mlp is spot on as to why I posted the article. Whilst viewing, it reminded me of this thread, that is the only reason I dredged it up. 

The fact that you did not vaccinate your child is your decision and yours alone to make and I respect that. I assume the decision was both a soul searching and educated one. To imply that the decision of those who choose to immunise is any less soul searching or educated is both disrespectful and unnecessary. 

Dusty.


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## hugh

DustyKat said:


> To imply that the decision of those who choose to immunise is any less soul searching or educated is both disrespectful and unnecessary.


I understand that choosing to vaccinate or not vaccinate is a difficult decision and for many will involve much soul searching, reviewing of information and research with no way of knowing if the right decision was made (apart from comparing what has happened with what might or might not have happened).

My own experience of talking to other parents about their vaccination decisions was that *most people *get their children vaccinated *because they are told to*, and fear and threats are generally used to persuade those who waver.

To those who weighed up the information and made a decision, i salute you.
(whatever decision you made)

To imply that the 'herd' can be influenced by the herd mentality may cause offence but it is redundantly obvious, surely?

With the fall in vaccinations, outbreak, and subsequent spike in vaccinations, this may create a blip that epidemiologists may or may not pick up on in the future?


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## DustyKat

There will always be those that follow. It is only offensive if you are saying that the herd mentality is an exclusive trait of those that immunise and therefore non existent in the non immunising herd.


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## KWalker

This is interesting because I learned about this in my pharmacology class this year and the claims are legit. I've read a few scholarly, peer reviewed studies regarding the link between MMR vaccinations and Autism. If I have time to scan them and put them online I will do so, but I can't post the direct link because my school has rights to them and I don't want to risk the consequences of giving away their "property"

The thing is, like a lot of things, although there is a risk associated with vaccinations and even other prescription medicines, in most cases the risks are fairly low. It's one of those things where you have to choose between not getting the vaccination and risk getting MMR or get the vaccination knowing there is a small risk of your child displaying signs of Autism. I cannot however talk regarding crohns because we did not talk about that.


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## Maree.

There have been a lot of good articles in the Guardian recently on this topic, and I thought I'd share a couple which I felt we're worth a read:

The story behind the MMR scare.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/25/mmr-scare-analysis

About the catchup campaign in UK to try to get kids who missed infant vaccinations done to try to stop there current measles epidemic.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/25/vaccination-campaign-mmr-measles

Why I wish I'd had my doctor vacinated, personal opinion piece by a Guardian reporter http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/24/wish-my-daughter-vaccinated


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## alisonwilkinson

Hi i think there is a link with the MMR vaccine. I was diagnosed in 1999 not long after having this vaccine. I was a normal 15 year old before this vaccination.


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## Axelfl3333

The non existent link between MMR and autism was debunked ages ago and the person who started the scare was struck off because of failings in the research done.the low uptake of mmr last winter lowered herd immunity in Wales causing a huge outbreak of measles and I believe whooping cough both of which are very serious illnesses in children


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## plantluvr

i have borderline autism which wasnt diagnosed until i was 29.also have crohns symptoms showing at age 4.thats the earliest memory. has anyone looked at the ingredients in vaccines? i really feel it was part of the cause. i look up ingredients on everything. we shouldnt be forced to. and threatened to have kids taken away. off the subject but good for parents to watch on you tube,called drugging our children.


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## hugh

Axelfl3333 said:


> The non existent link between MMR and autism was debunked ages ago and the person who started the scare was struck off because of failings in the research done.the low uptake of mmr last winter lowered herd immunity in Wales causing a huge outbreak of measles and I believe whooping cough both of which are very serious illnesses in children


"An outbreak of measles occurred in a high school with a documented vaccination level of 98 per cent. "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646939/

"The school's 1,873 students had a pre-outbreak vaccination level of 99.7% by school records."
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/129/1/173.short

"Of the 269 cases, 208 (77.3%) occurred among primary and secondary school students, of whom 203 (97.6%) had documentation of mumps vaccination. "
http://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(05)80726-7/abstract

"In fact, the study showed that 81 percent of 2010 California whooping cough cases in people under the age of 18 occurred in those who were fully up to date on the whooping cough vaccine. "
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...ussis-vaccine-for-whooping-cough-effects.aspx

"This first detailed analysis of a recent North American pertussis outbreak found widespread disease among fully vaccinated older children. Starting approximately three years after prior vaccine dose, attack rates markedly increased, suggesting inadequate protection or durability from the acellular vaccine. "
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/13/cid.cis287

"Family to Receive $1.5M+ in First-Ever Vaccine-Autism Court Award"
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20015982-10391695.html

"By now, many parents in America have heard of the Hannah Poling court case. They know *the government has acknowledged that vaccines contributed to autism* in at least one little girl from Georgia. Understandably, they are worried, and they want answers........
......More important, the Poling case is neither isolated nor unusual. At least 12 other autism-related claims have been paid out in Vaccine Court to date, and perhaps hundreds more cases like Hannah’s are pending.
http://arizonaadvancedmedicine.com/david-kirby-gives-us-answers-on-vaccines/

"MMR doctor wins High Court appeal
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17283751

"The judge criticised the disciplinary panel's "inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion". 
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...lkersmith-wins-high-court-appeal-7543114.html

My view is that the jury is still out and won;t be allowed back in because it will get in the way of business as usual, but i'm a crank


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## plantluvr

they use monkey meat in vaccines and many other harmful ingredients like mercury. mercury exposure from what i learned in school causes many severe adverse effects in the human body. i got my teeth with silver filllings removed as mercury over time as the silver fillings break down mercury can seep.


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## monterey

I did read that many vaccinations contain so many toxic ingredients. I didn't vaccinate my children till they were older than the usual age. They wont let them go to school without them though. I just did it later so the chances of autism were less. Though my daughter has ADHD and so does her son. I think I have it too sometimes.


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## plantluvr

they were trying to get me to get a mmr shot after giving birth 4 yrs ago. of course i refused. my kid and are vegetarians. and im going to homeschool. i also have add but i use meditation and mm to help. lots of people ive met with add smoke mm and it helps. ive taken adderall. that was horrible. i watched drugging our children on youtube as i have a nephew with adhd and autism. it woke me up!


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