# Raw food?



## Jannicke

I`ve read some places on the web about the great benefits of eating raw food- and also for people with Crohns. One webpage said that people with Crohns could become completely well on this diet:shifty-t: 
Anyone who has tried it in here? I`m willing to try anything to get a painfree life! 
The diet is made up of lots of fruits, vegetables after a few months and a small amount of nuts and seeds. What about vitamin B12 and iron??? Doesn`t get a lot of that on this diet, thats for sure! 
The only thing I can tolerate nowadays is a liquid meal- replacer called Meal Tech from a Norwegian firm called Tech Nutrition..


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## Keona

I know for me a lot of raw foods cause a lot of pain so I wouldnt be able to tolerate it.  Raw veggies are especially torturous.  Maybe if they were put through a juicer it would be better not sure.  Also, it isnt good for people with Crohns to have nuts and seeds as they can get stuck.  Someone explained it to me that made a lot of sense... your intestines are inflamed and angry looking and if you eat popcorn and foods with rough edges, it will scrape the sides of your intestines and make things worse.  This fit for me even though I cant see inside my guts....I can certainly feel it. You might want to check with your dietician or GI first before doing this.

Welcome to the forum


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## Crohns08

I couldn't do it while flaring, but I know now that I've been on humira and all of my markers are normal I can eat sushi and I absolutely love it! If it wasn't so expensive I'd eat a lot more of it. But sadly it is and I can only eat it like three times a week as a lunch.


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## Keona

you can make sushi..it is really easy and fun to make!


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## FDK80

I dont think this is a good idea, people with crohns should be really carefull about food diet, and from what i know Raw-food is a Big NO !


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## musicislife52

I know you're not supposed to eat skins and seeds (or too much fiber, really) with Crohn's, which is extremely hard for me as I am very health-conscious and vegetarian (I am trying to eliminate dairy and don't eat eggs too often though). I bought a VitaMix 5200 to help with the skins and seeds though, and even though it is very expensive (almost $400 for a reconditioned model - practically new, just used for demos), it is AMAZING. It blends fruits and veggies down to practically juice. I have a smoothie every morning for breakfast with spinach, a small amount of kale, mixed berries, a banana, sometimes mango/kiwi/dates, 1/2 tablespoon of organic hemp oil (working my way up to a full tablespoon), under 1/4 cup oatmeal, and sometimes soy or oat milk. It comes out to about 3 cups and takes me at least an hour to drink it all but it gives me so much energy and it helps keep me regular.

I'm doing this to try to give my intestines a slight break from digesting. I have heard from many sources to try and reduce my fiber intake with Crohn's, but everything I eat is high-fiber so I would have to drastically alter my diet, and I feel like my energy levels would drop a lot, but maybe my flare-ups would stop? It's so confusing! Also, I get constipated usually, instead of the typical diarrhea that comes with Crohn's, so I need the fiber. So far, the smoothies seem to be okay, but it's hard to tell.

I also take a multivitamin to make sure I'm getting Calcium, Vitamin D, Iron, and B12.

I've heard that juicing is great, since it eliminates the fiber, but my stomach doesn't feel happy when I drink juice... Maybe green juice would be different, since I've only had fruit juice, but I'm not willing to spend that much on a juicer at this point.


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## ameslouise

The Functional Medicine doctor I used to see always had magazines from the Hippocrates Institute in his office, which I would read while getting my nutrient infusions.  They always touted raw and whole food diets, even for IBD patients. I just could never understand how ANY flaring Crohn's patient could tolerate raw foods, unless they were on megadoses of pred!

I agree that juicing is a great way to get the vitamins and nutrients offered by raw foods without going thru the painful process of digesting them ourselves.

If you do try going down the raw path, please be very careful!

- Amy


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## Miss Spencer

Jannicke said:


> I've read some places on the web about the great benefits of eating raw food- and also for people with Crohns. One webpage said that people with Crohns could become completely well on this diet Anyone who has tried it in here?


Yes, I am doing it, but with limitations. 

For example: I can't eat a broccoli in its whole raw state, but I can easily juice it. Juicing is still part of a raw diet.

Sweet ripe raw fruit such as red papaya and banana are very soothing for the bowels, especially if eaten in a mashed or blended state. 

I know two people who have totally cured Ulcerative Colitis and Crohns by following a 100% raw vegan diet.

I eat 50% raw vegan and 50% cooked vegan foods and this is a good balance for me to remain pain free. I also avoid gluten/wheat and am taking some supplements. I am pretty much in remission, well certainly a vast improvement considering how ill I once was.

Here is the website if you are interested in finding out more:

http://www.colitis-crohns.com/

In the early stages I was eating a lot of lightly steamed food, and as I got better I introduced more and more raw food. I was 100% raw for a while but I find it too hard to stick to, so 50/50 is the perfect answer for me.

I am also following Dr Joel Fuhrman:

http://www.drfuhrman.com/

He has a good newsletter out that covers the natural best treatments and diet for UC & C. I have given the link for this in other posts.

Currently in the best health I have ever been with UC, due to the above.

Hope this helps.


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## Miss Spencer

Jannicke said:


> What about vitamin B12 and iron??? Doesn`t get a lot of that on this diet, thats for sure!


If you do the diet badly, you may need to take a supplement. 

But most people following a raw diet don't take synthetic supplements; they get all their nutrition from the food they eat. 

Although they may choose to boost their diet with a natural superfood (i.e.) freeze dried organic chlorella powder. This powder is excellent for UC & C and I normally add a teaspoon to my smoothies, which are another part of the raw diet

If the diet is done correctly, you will get plenty of calcium, iron and protein.

http://www.veganrawdiet.com/about/

http://www.livestrong.com/article/399617-minerals-vitamins-for-raw-vegans/

http://vegetarian.lovetoknow.com/Changing_to_a_Raw_Food_Diet

http://www.hippocrateshealthlifestyle.com/400/vegetarian-diet-nutrition-laying-a-foundation/

Remember: Any diet can be bad if not researched correctly and not planned properly.


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## musicislife52

Miss Spencer said:


> If you do the diet badly, you may need to take a supplement.
> 
> But most people following a raw diet don't take synthetic supplements; they get all their nutrition from the food they eat.
> 
> Although they may choose to boost their diet with a natural superfood (i.e.) freeze dried organic chlorella powder. This powder is excellent for UC & C and I normally add a teaspoon to my smoothies, which are another part of the raw diet
> 
> If the diet is done correctly, you will get plenty of calcium, iron and protein.
> 
> http://www.veganrawdiet.com/about/
> 
> http://www.livestrong.com/article/399617-minerals-vitamins-for-raw-vegans/
> 
> http://vegetarian.lovetoknow.com/Changing_to_a_Raw_Food_Diet
> 
> http://www.hippocrateshealthlifestyle.com/400/vegetarian-diet-nutrition-laying-a-foundation/
> 
> Remember: Any diet can be bad if not researched correctly and not planned properly.


You won't get Vitamin D (even more important if you don't get much or any sun!) or B12 though. You'll need a supplement for those.


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## Jannicke

Thanks for all of your answers:thumleft:

I`m going for this diet, I don`t see how it got be worse than many of the other diets around. I`ve been living vegan for these last weeks, and I am definitely feeling better. I quit the Entocort I was prescribed, the side effects were too heavy.. So now I`m trying to heal the natural way - replacing more and more of my cooked vegan foods with raw, and I feel very well! My stomach functions normally again after being almost constantly constipated the last months. :ylol:
But I`m going to take your advice on taking supplements tough, vitamin B- complex and vitamin D.


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## Miss Spencer

musicislife52 said:


> You won't get Vitamin D (even more important if you don't get much or any sun!) or B12 though. You'll need a supplement for those.


Most of the true raw vegan die-hards don't take supplements; they are totally against anything synthetic. Then again, they are all very much into natural living, which includes being out in the fresh air and sunshine. 

I am not a true raw vegan die-hard. I use supplements for Vitamin D, as I don’t get out into the sunshine much. I have my blood checked every year, and so far my Vitamin B levels have remained good, so I have not yet needed a supplement. But I probably will down the line.

I have also read that meat eaters are advised to supplement with B12, due to absorption problems. And many meat eaters have been found to be deficient in a number of different vitamins, so don’t presume you are safe just because you eat meat.


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## musicislife52

Yeah, B vitamins are stored in your body for a certain period of time, but to be safe you should supplement. And you're right, it's not just raw vegans that need to supplement - even meat/dairy eaters can be deficient, so basically everyone can benefit from a quality supplement.

Also, B vitamins are absorbed in the Ileum primarily, which is where a lot of us have Crohn's, so all the more reason to be on the safe side!

There are sprays you can get with B12 (better absorption and easy to take when you're feeling too nauseous for pills!)... My sister and I just started using the brand Pure Vegan which was about $20 for 175 500mcg sprays.


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## Miss Spencer

musicislife52 said:


> There are sprays you can get with B12 (better absorption and easy to take when you're feeling too nauseous for pills!)... My sister and I just started using the brand Pure Vegan which was about $20 for 175 500mcg sprays.


Never heard of a spray. Do you just spray it in your mouth?


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## musicislife52

Yeah, under the tongue.


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## raeleene7

Hi Jannicke! Hey good luck with the new diet! For me, and most of the other fellow crohnies I know fresh fruit and veggies are a big no-no. We can't fully digest all of them and therefore it can be painful or can cause a stricture- ouch! Actually thats exactly what happened to me, ate a banana one day and the next- BIG BLOWOUT! there are ways to puree them, etc. which in that liquid state, no problemo for me! 
I am currently taking no meds (none have worked)
Have been on B-12 shots and massive D and Calcium
Have tried Aloe, Alive, Oil, Probiotics, etc. None of them helped- they either helped for a couple of weeks and then back to the drawing board, or they made my symptoms worse. 
What is working for me and has been for the last 5 months is Juice Plus. I have way more energy, the flares have eased way up, no more severe flares, cramps are gone, my Dr. took blood work to see if my body was absorbing any of the nutrients and YES! all my levels are up. I am sooooooo grateful for finally getting a break with crohns! (doing my happy dance-lol) 
Take care of yourselves!

Severe Crohns Diagnosed- 5/06
Previous Meds Taken- Remicade, cimzia, humira, prednisone, pentasa, entocort, etc. (all)
Currently taking- Juice Plus
Surgeries- 9


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## sunluvva

I'm the same as Miss Spencer above - doing raw but with some limitations (it's more difficult socially than practically)

There are many types of raw food diets touted on the net and some are as harmful as eating burgers and pizza everyday with very high fat contents and loads of nuts and dehydrated foods.

I also  recommend Dr David Klien's site colitis-crohns .com He healed himself using this approach and has since helped thousands of others overcome IBD.  Most importantly is that his methods allow people with severe symptoms to heal by taking a very slow gradual approach - infact he tells you to avoid lots of fruit and veg!

I became B12 deficient eating a normal 'meat & dairy' diet and need regular injections so would advise anyone with crohn's to get tested regularly at the Dr's as severe deficiency is horrible (symptoms of dementia) and dangerous.

Good luck everyone who decides to give it a try


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## newsun

Jannicke said:


> I`ve read some places on the web about the great benefits of eating raw food- and also for people with Crohns. One webpage said that people with Crohns could become completely well on this diet:shifty-t:
> Anyone who has tried it in here? I`m willing to try anything to get a painfree life!
> The diet is made up of lots of fruits, vegetables after a few months and a small amount of nuts and seeds. What about vitamin B12 and iron??? Doesn`t get a lot of that on this diet, thats for sure!
> The only thing I can tolerate nowadays is a liquid meal- replacer called Meal Tech from a Norwegian firm called Tech Nutrition..


I don't think taking raw food diet would be a  good idea.


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## Faye11

PLease read this. 

Self Healing of Colitis and Crohn's by David Klein, Ph.D

Raw food IS the way to go. but transition is necessary


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## alfredothebarber

Jannicke said:


> I`ve read some places on the web about the great benefits of eating raw food- and also for people with Crohns. One webpage said that people with Crohns could become completely well on this diet:shifty-t:
> Anyone who has tried it in here? I`m willing to try anything to get a painfree life!
> The diet is made up of lots of fruits, vegetables after a few months and a small amount of nuts and seeds. What about vitamin B12 and iron??? Doesn`t get a lot of that on this diet, thats for sure!
> The only thing I can tolerate nowadays is a liquid meal- replacer called Meal Tech from a Norwegian firm called Tech Nutrition..


I bought a book by Dr. David Klein, who claims that a raw fruit/veg diet (and nothing else) can cure EVERYONE in 6-8 weeks of all UC and Crohn's symptoms. I followed his plan to a tee (which began with steamed veggies), and I didn't get any better. I just lost a ton of weight (which wasn't good because I'm skinny as it is). 

It may work for some, but it's definitely not a cure-all. Oh, and I can't even look at squash anymore. I ate so much squash in that timespan. Yuk!


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## Mountaingem

I tried this diet about ten years ago. I was on it for four weeks and my colon never did adapt to the raw veggies/fruits. I was under my GI doctor's supervision, who also happened to follow the diet, not because she had a disease but because she believed in it. I started it when I was in remission and on Entocort and Pentasa, just to be safe.

I was on it for six weeks, and I never did adapt to the raw foods. I had terrible pain, cramping and diarrhea;about week three I also had bleeding. I stuck it out but after four weeks of it I had enough; also I was anemic and had lost 10 pounds.

I needed a six week round of steroids to get everything under control. My doctor said it was hard to know if I was going to come out of remission  anyway, and this just gave it a final push, or if it was entirely from the diet. She also was a research doctor so she wrote a paper on my experience.


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## outlier

take a look at this book Catching Fire Cooking made human
http://www.amazon.com/Catching-Fire-Cooking-Made-Human/dp/0465013627
The author argues that our bodies are no longer built to tolerate a solely raw food diet. Part of the reason is our colons and digestive systems are to small. so for someone with crohn's who's colons and digestive systems are impaired it seems like it might be even worse. 
Yes people lose weight but that's not because it's healthy as most of us know not all weight loss is good.


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## Mountaingem

Oh, yes outlier makes a good point, I should clarify that the 10 pounds I lost wasn't a good thing; I was already too thin to begin with and the way I lost it was in the typical flare kind of way.

I was low on all my vitamins and had a terrible time gaining enough weight again, even with the steroids.


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## Mannaforlife

Yes I have done this very diet the raw food diet and can testify that it does work!
it is the cure for all things! haveing fresh raw veggies fruits heals us it has helped heal me. I have learned this through careful observing and trying this myself, learning by others examples, education by Dr Gabriel Cousens who has helped so many with many diseases including Chrones, Colitis, Diabeties, Fibermialgia, and more..with his expertise in this respect the raw food diet, through detox and cleasing first, our bodies have a toxic overload of many years of eating the standard "American " diet..and it was bound to catch up to us. So this is a great alternative to the traditional "ways" and for me it is a blessing cause it toally works. please check out Dr Gabriel cousens videos on you tube Raw for 30 days and others Peace to all ..Catherine Sarah Manna


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## Mannaforlife

Here is a great link that explained to me why eat raw, and i can tell you that when I drink a freshly squeezed juice or freshy made one, i can feel my body just soak it right up!! its as if, my cells are going to work. Here is a great link that explained to me why eat raw, and i can tell you that when I drink a freshly squeezed juice or freshy made one, i can feel my body just soak it right up!! its as if, my cells are going to work. the article is at Rawmazing.com


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## Mannaforlife

*What do our bodies need to eat raw?*

*What are the building blocks that our bodies need to function? Enzymes, vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients, protein, essential fats and fiber. These are all provided by our food and are involved in growth, repair and maintenance of the body. Let’s take a quick look at each of these and what they do for you.*

*Enzymes*

Enzymes convert the food we eat into chemical structures that can pass though the membranes of the cells lining the digestive tract and into the blood stream. Their job doesn’t end there. *Enzymes are the living proteins that direct the life force into our biochemical and metabolic processes.* They help transform and store energy, make active hormones, dissolve fiber and prevent clotting. *They have anti-inflammatory effects.* *Enzymes help balance and restore the immune system, and heal many diseases. Enzymes even help repair our DNA and our RNA.*

When we *cook food*, we *destroy many of the enzymes *that help us naturally digest it.

*Vitamins*

*Without vitamins our cells would not function properly *and thus *our organs would suffer and eventually we would no longer be able to survive*. Vitamins help regulate metabolism, help convert fat and carbohydrates into energy, and assist in forming bone and tissue. Guess what happens *when you cook food? *You got it, *a large percentage of the vitamins are destroyed. *
Viktoras Kulvinskas in his book, Survival into the 21st Century, estimates that the overall nutrient destruction is as high as 80%. Tests have shown that we will lose 50% of the B vitamins while B1 and B12 can lose up to 96%. 97% of folic acid is destroyed as well as 70-80 % of vitamin C. 

*Minerals*

Seventeen of the thirty elements known to be essential to life are metals. *Mineral deficiencies cause disease in humans*. Minerals also have a synergistic relationship with vitamins. They help each other help us. *When foods are cooked, many of the minerals are destroyed, or altered, rendering them useless and also unable to assist our friends the vitamins.* 

*Phytonutrients*

Phytonutrients are what give fruits and vegetables their color. *Phytos protect the body and fight disease.* *They also fight cancer *and help your heart. Phytonutrient are at leading edge of research on nutrition. *They provide medicine for cell health*. And once again, *Phytonutrients in freshly harvested plant foods can be destroyed or removed by cooking.* 



*Why Eat Raw?*

It just starts to make sense. If *cooking destroys the vital and essential nutrients that we need to stay healthy, eating our food raw does the opposite. It provides us with what we need for our health and well being*. I know from experience that when I am eating at least 80% raw, I have more energy, more mental focus, and all of the pesky things that irritate me on a daily basis, like acid reflux and my daily aches and pains, dissipate. I also know that I am feeding my body what it needs to thrive, not just survive.

article taken from rawmazing.com


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## glory_h

I'm glad someone posted this thread and that there are some positive things to say about a raw diet!

It's true that raw veggies and fruits, and nuts, can be very painful for someone with Crohn's. But I think there's a misconception that a raw-food diet consists of just raw veggies/fruit in their whole form.

I ate raw earlier this year, just for a week, and I was amazed at the amount of variety you can have with a raw food diet. You can make "cheeses" with nuts. There's a lot of puree-ing, blending, soaking, etc, which make the foods fairly easy to digest. 

The principle of a raw diet makes so much sense! Eating raw (and therefore alkaline) foods reduces inflammatory responses in our bodies. What is Crohn's but a big problem with inflammation? So is psoriasis, arthritis, and other Crohn's extra-intestinal manifestations. It makes a lot of sense to me that a diet to calm inflammation would help with Crohn's. 

That is, if you can tolerate it. Of course I wouldn't ever recommend one specific diet for everyone! As we all know, Crohn's can treat each person very differently, and we all have different trigger foods. And we need to respect that what works for one person won't work for the next, necessarily.

That said, I'm going raw! I'll post on the forum about my results.


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## Mannaforlife

Awesome!!! i know that detox is very important!! Our bodies have been overloaded with acidic foods so we have to detox it, and thats why some people with chrones cant have certain fruits or veggies they are acidic,,,


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## hugh

Faye11 said:


> Raw food IS the way to go. but transition is necessary


MY two cents worth......

*While the intestine is inflamed,constricted  and/or ulcerated then raw food would be a bad thing, probably a very bad thing.*

The idea would be to eat a few safe foods (suggestions -pureed cooked carrots, plain gelatine, fresh apple juice and maybe a plain well cooked chicken soup) for a while as hopefully the intestine will start to heal on that diet.
Then add in bananas, home made applesauce, pureed squash and zuchinis, broiled or roast meats, boiled/poached eggs.

Then, *when you feel good* try raw
It doesn't have to be ALL raw, just MORE raw

Everything i've read recommends avoiding all grains and sugars (worked for me)

As glory_h said with so much truth
"Eating raw (and therefore alkaline) foods reduces inflammatory responses in our bodies. What is Crohn's but a big problem with inflammation? So is psoriasis, arthritis, and other Crohn's extra-intestinal manifestations. It makes a lot of sense to me that a diet to calm inflammation would help with Crohn's."


I'd try juicing (filter the juice to remove fibre).
I watched this movie a couple of days ago,
http://vimeo.com/27719576 
really inspirational - different disease but cuts to the heart of life -         FOOD MATTERS
He got off prednisone and got his life back.

You will have to do your own research and have qualified support


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## Wife2Crohns

I never dared give Hubby any kind of veggies raw. Just hurt him too much. In the beginning we went on a totally non-packaged diet and I believe it completely healed him. Now he takes a supplement which keeps him completely symptom free. Although Hubby can eat whatever he wants we still follow a non-packaged diet, for the most part. We have added some of those forbidden pleasures back into our diet, such as cheese and milk and red meat and we no longer avoid going out to eat anymore either.


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## nogutsnoglory

I believe the raw food diet can be miraculous based on the research BUT I'm not sure it works for autoimmune disease. I would not do it while flaring but you can experiment after. 

There are books on crohns and raw food. Paul Nison had UC and write a book.


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## Wife2Crohns

nogutsnoglory said:


> I believe the raw food diet can be miraculous based on the research BUT I'm not sure it works for autoimmune disease. I would not do it while flaring but you can experiment after.
> 
> There are books on crohns and raw food. Paul Nison had UC and write a book.


I went raw myself for about two years, I LOVED IT! Hubby and I were actually just talking about going super healthy again. He's not excited about it but Im the one that cooks and shops so I guess he'll eat what I feed him, huh. :ylol:


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## vonfunk

Mannaforlife said:


> it is the cure for all things!


I am going to be the naysayer here.  It might help to control for some people, but it will not cure.  Diet cannot change genetic factors.


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## hugh

quote from nogutsnoglory 
"I believe the raw food diet can be miraculous based on the research BUT I'm not sure it works for autoimmune disease. I would not do it while flaring but you can experiment after." 

Diet has been shown to cure autoimmune diseases,
 -for example Joe Cross and Phil Riverstone both cured themselves of Urticarial vasculitis (A rare autoimmune disease characterised by recurrent urticaria (nettle rash)) - documented in "Fat, sick and nearly dead" available to watch on Vimeo http://vimeo.com/27719576 

In autoimmune disease, the adaptive immune system mistakenly begins attacking specific healthy cells and tissues—and fails to shut off that attack.
Why does the immune system attack healthy cells (without going too heavy on the science - look it up for yourselves)?

This is from Tim Ferris's Blog and explains it simply and really well, 
(his example uses wheat germ agglutinin (WGA), but other proteins will also do it)

"Proteins are made of molecules called amino acids (AA). Let’s imagine for a minute these amino acids are represented by Legos, with different shapes and colors denoting different amino acids. Imagine a string of Legos with a specific sequence; let’s say its five to ten Legos long. Now imagine another, identical set of Legos attached on top of many more Legos. The top five to ten of the long piece is identical to the short piece.

Let’s assume the short piece is WGA and the long piece is a protein in the beta cells of your pancreas where insulin is made. If the WGA is attacked by the immune system and an antibody is made against it (because the body thinks WGA is a bacteria or virus), that antibody will not only attach to WGA, it can also attach to the protein in your pancreas. When that WGA antibody attaches to your pancreas, it precipitates a wholesale immune response—attacking that tissue. Your pancreas is damaged, or destroyed, and you become type 1 diabetic. If that protein happened to be in the myelin sheath of your brain, you would develop multiple sclerosis."

quote from vonfunk
"I am going to be the naysayer here. It might help to control for some people, but it will not cure. Diet cannot change genetic factors."

- One might have an inherited genetic pattern that makes one susceptible to a certain disease, called a genetic predisposition, but without a trigger it will not manifest. 

Diet is the biggest single factor. and fixing problems like 'leaky gut' (-a porous gut wall which allows (to put it bluntly) elements of your faeces into your bloodstream), as well as bacterial imbalances and fungal overgrowth can have an enormous effect .

Personally, i'd be encouraging people to try altering their diet as it has worked for thousands, but not for everyone, rather than encouraging them to give up and take the pills forever


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## vonfunk

You can unring a bell.  Yes an environmental trigger is needed, but changing one's diet after the fact does not change the fact that the trigger occurred.    
I'm not saying diet won't help manage symptoms, my issue is people using the word "cure".


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## hugh

fair enough but
i'd be happy with no symptoms and no meds.

interestingly, i think crohn's is an autoimmune disease, not a genetic disease.
The genetic element is that your immune system reacts to specific proteins, (which a 'differently gened' person might tolerate) so if the trigger is in undigested food entering the bloodstream (for example) causing an immune response then curing the leaky gut would cure the disease.
yes, if you developed leaky gut again, you would probably get crohn's again.

I'm eager to find out.


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## vonfunk

Crohn's,and UC are autoimmune diseases, which are caused in part by genetics. Which is why only certain people are susceptible and not the entire population. Autoimmune diseases at this point can't be cured, although the use of chemotherapy is promising. They can be controlled, but not cured. 

As for Leaky Gut Syndrome, it is a big idea in the alternative health field, currently it has  claimed to being cause of everything from Autism to Asthma to Lupus.  All of these connections are being made without any proper evaluated research. If Leaky Gut Syndrome is recognised as an actual condition by the medical community(because right now it isn't), and they find a causational link between that and IBD then things may very well change. 

But don't use cure, use control or even "cure".


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## hugh

I'm not gonna argue that one,


yes i am 
there are dozens (if not hundreds) of published articles about leaky gut, many relating it to autoimmune disease.
The scientific debate seems to be about whether it is a 'syndrome' or not

*"Review article: Intestinal permeability in Crohn's disease.
Aliment Pharmacol Ther 1997 Dec;11 Suppl 3:47-53; discussion 53-6*

Meddings JB

Gastrointestinal Research Group, University of Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

SUMMARY

Measurements of intestinal permeability (IP) may help in determining susceptibility for the development of Crohn's disease or for imminent relapse in patients with the disease. It is now apparent that a subset of patients at high risk for the development of Crohn's disease have either increased baseline IP or an exaggerated response to environmental agents that increase IP. These, coupled with observations that increased IP in patients at risk for the development of Crohn's disease is associated with an abnormal immunological phenotype, lend support to the hypothesis that increased IP is a very early event in the genesis of Crohn's disease." 


"*Increased Intestinal Permeability in Patients with Crohn's Disease and Their Relatives
A Possible Etiologic Factor*

    DANIEL HOLLANDER, M.D.;
    CONSTANCE M. VADHEIM, Ph.D.;
    EDWARD BRETTHOLZ, M.D.;
    GLORIA M. PETERSEN, Ph.D.;
    THOMAS DELAHUNTY, Ph.D.; and
    JEROME I. ROTTER, M.D.

+ Author Affiliations

    Irvine and Los Angeles, California

Abstract

The cause of Crohn's disease is unknown, although alterations in intestinal permeability may play a primary role. Because we were interested in permeability changes that occur before the onset of intestinal inflammation, we took advantage of the known genetic predisposition to this disease and studied not only patients with Crohn's disease, but their clinically unaffected relatives as well. Intestinal permeability was assessed using the marker polyethylene glycol-400 ingested with a standard meal. We found that 17 normal volunteers absorbed 215 ± 29.6 mg (mean ± SE), whereas 11 patients with Crohn's disease absorbed 514 ±94.7 mg and their 32 healthy relatives absorbed 566 ±62.4 mg. The twofold increase in permeability of patients and their relatives (p <0.005 compared with controls) indicates that the intestinal defect in the ability to exclude larger sized molecules is not secondary to clinically recognized intestinal inflammation, but is a primary defect that may be an etiologic [that means causative] factor in this disease."

*Role of the intestinal barrier in inflammatory bowel disease*

Mike G Laukoetter, Porfirio Nava, Asma Nusrat	

Mike G Laukoetter, Porfirio Nava, Asma Nusrat, Epithelial Pathobiology Research Unit, Department of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine, Emory University, Atlanta, GA 30322, United States

Mike G Laukoetter, Department of General Surgery, University of Muenster, Muenster 48149, Germany

Supported by Grants from the German Research Foundation (Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft La 2359/1-1 to M.L.), National Institutes of Health (DK 55679, DK 59888 to A.N.) and Crohn’s and Colitis Foundation of America (to A.N.)

Correspondence to: Asma Nusrat, Department of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine, Emory University, Whitehead Research Building, Room 105E, 615 Michael Street, Atlanta, GA 30322, United States. anusrat@emory.edu


Abstract

A critical function of the intestinal mucosa is to form a barrier that separates luminal contents from the interstitium. The single layer of intestinal epithelial cells (IECs) serves as a dynamic interface between the host and its environment. Cell polarity and structural properties of the epithelium is complex and is important in the development of epithelial barrier function. Epithelial cells associate with each other via a series of intercellular junctions. The apical most intercellular junctional complex referred to as the Apical Junction Complex (AJC) is important in not only cell-cell recognition, but also in the regulation of paracellular movement of fluid and solutes. Defects in the intestinal epithelial barrier function have been observed in a number of intestinal disorders such as inflammatory bowel disease (IBD). It is now becoming evident that an aberrant epithelial barrier function plays a central role in the pathophysiology of IBD. Thus, a better understanding of the intestinal epithelial barrier structure and function in healthy and disease states such as IBD will foster new ideas for the development of therapies for such chronic disorders.



© 2008 WJG. All rights reserved.

*A role for Campylobacter jejuni-induced enteritis in inflammatory bowel disease?*

    Lisa D. Kalischuk1 and
    Andre G. Buret2

+ Author Affiliations

    1Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Lethbridge;
    2Department of Biological Sciences, Inflammation Research Network, University of Calgary, Calgary, Alberta, Canada

    Address for reprint requests and other correspondence: A. G. Buret, Dept. of Biological Sciences, Inflammation Research Network, Univ. of Calgary, 2500 Univ. Dr. N. W., Calgary, AB, Canada, T2N 1N4 (e-mail: aburet@ucalgary.ca).

    Submitted 26 May 2009.
    accepted in final form 25 October 2009.

Abstract

The inflammatory bowel diseases (IBD), Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis, are T cell-mediated diseases that are characterized by chronic, relapsing inflammation of the intestinal tract. The pathogenesis of IBD involves the complex interaction between the intestinal microflora, host genetic and immune factors, and environmental stimuli. Epidemiological analyses have implicated acute bacterial enteritis as one of the factors that may incite or exacerbate IBD in susceptible individuals. In this review, we examine how interactions between the common enteric pathogen Campylobacter jejuni (C. jejuni), the host intestinal epithelium, and resident intestinal microflora may contribute to the pathogenesis of IBD. Recent experimental evidence indicates that C. jejuni may permit the translocation of normal, noninvasive microflora via novel processes that implicate epithelial lipid rafts. This breach in intestinal barrier function may, in turn, prime the intestine for chronic inflammatory responses in susceptible individuals. Insights into the interactions between enteric pathogens, the host epithelia, and intestinal microflora will improve our understanding of disease processes that may initiate and/or exacerbate intestinal inflammation in patients with IBD and provide impetus for the development of new therapeutic approaches for the treatment of IBD.



from  Sydney Morning Herald website
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/08/1089000262822.html?from=moreStories

Professor Ian Brighthope, president of the Australian College of Nutritional and Environmental Medicine, says leaky gut is well documented as an abnormal physiology. "Leaky gut is a real phenomenon. It does occur, there's no doubt about that,"

Dr Peter Katelaris, clinical associate professor at the University of Sydney and gastroentorologist at Concord Hospital, agrees. "We recognise leaky gut as a consequence of a disease," he says, emphasising that his view is from an evidence-based medical perspective. "People have a leaky gut for a variety of medical, scientific reasons. When you talk about leaky gut syndrome you're defining a syndrome that is a bit nebulous.
"There's a lot of speculation that there is the potential for harmful things to come across [the lining of the gut] but usually it is another disease that is the problem."
Katelaris says increased gut permeability is prevalent in patients with Crohn's disease and coeliac disease.

to quote wikipedia
"Defects in the intestinal epithelial barrier function have been observed in a number of bowel disorders such as inflammatory bowel disease (IBD). It is now becoming evident that an aberrant epithelial barrier function plays a central role in the pathophysiology of IBD, gastrointestinal diseases, cardiovascular disease, acute and chronic pediatric and other recognised diseases." 

If those people with 15 years or more of remission aren't "cured" then i don't know who is.
You have to remember that crohn's an IBD are worth an estimated 2 billion dollars a year to big pharma,
Do you really think they want you to get well?


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## vonfunk

hugh said:


> If those people with 15 years or more of remission aren't "cured" then i don't know who is.


No one is, that is the point.

They are in long term remission, and I am happy for them. I'm happy for those who are able to achieve, maintain remission and control the disease through diet.  

But not everyone can, to state outright that making specific changes and converting to a specific diet will cure and fix you is wrong. Because close to everyone tries one of the many miracle cure diets at some point and they do not work for everyone. 

Mary has Crohn's. Mary goes on a diet, she achieves remission, she maintains remission. Mary tells Johnny. Johnny goes on the diet, Johnny follows it to a "T", he feels a little better, but he doesn't hit remission. But the diet worked for Mary, which means Johnny must have done it wrong, he must be a bad patient.

This is the logic presented by stating X diet will fix you.

"But Jason, you didn't go on the right diet" you might be thinking, "this is the diet that will fix things"

Every special diet claims it is the one that will "cure" you, and yes every special diet that exists will help some people, but it won't help everyone.

To claim that X diet will fix everyone, belittles and demeans everyone who has made drastic lifestyle and diet choices and did not achieve remission, because if the miracle didn't work for them it must be their fault.

Every time I went off my meds and tried one of the miracle cure-all diets, (because all of the miracle diets seem to cure everything) I got worse, I required blood transfusions due to internal bleeding, and a couple times I almost died.


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## hugh

I totally agree with you, but i've never said that X diet will cure everyone,
But i continue to say that diet and intestinal health are one of if the most important things for everyone to try, *but sensibly*
.
Logic would indicate that the most successful 'diets' are worth trying first as statistically you have the greatest chance of success because they have worked for the most people.
There is no guarantee that they will work for you (me, him, her etc.), but may lead to improved health and a greater understanding of where you are and how to get to where you want to be.

If (as research is starting to indicate) intestinal permeability is a causative factor then either of two things will "cure" you.
-restoring intestinal integrity
-avoiding specific trigger foods (be they lectins in grain, milk, whatever.

If, for example i lived somewhere where the water was poisoned (not enough to kill me, but enough to make me sick),and it was a dosage that some people could tolerate without noticing, and some people got just a little sick, and some people got really sick and i stopped drinking the water would i be cured or just in remission?


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## vonfunk

Poison is bad for everyone and is an external factor toxin entering the body. That example you gave is invalid. The argument is flawed, poison isn't a disease.  If were to change the poison to a food,wool even or something that isn't naturally toxic to people, look at it again. 

I live in a place where everyone wears wool,when I wear wool I get itchy and develop a rash, but everyone else is fine.  If stop wearing it will I be cured of my wool allergy or in remission.

You would still be allergic to wool, your allergies are in remission as you have avoided contact with wool.


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## hugh

"Poison is bad for everyone"

Everybody reacts differently, some accumulate poisons faster, some secrete poisons faster, some repair damage faster.
Some medications kill some people, make some sick and make others well.
Some people tolerate larger doses, some react to smaller doses.
Paracetomol is a poison, it it the dose that matters

"If were to change the poison to a food,wool even or something that isn't naturally toxic to people, look at it again. 

Paracelsus, the father of toxicology, once wrote: "Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison." (thanks Wikipedia)
Lectins (for example) are naturally toxic, we just learned how to reduce the lectin content down to a level that most people can tolerate, but a small percent (possible due to a genetic predisposition) have a much lower tolerance.

The contents of the intestine are considered to be 'outside' the body, and what is useful is absorbed 'into' the body .
The whole point about intestinal permeability is that molecules that we would never choose to absorb (perhaps because they are poisonous) pass through the intestinal wall where they are confronted by the immune system and this can lead to the production of antibodies that mistakenly target our own bodied (autoimmune disease).

The science is not in question (although the interpretation is)

As for cure/"cure", 
If (for example) ones condition was resolved because one was no longer consuming whatever was triggering the reaction, then i agree, one would not be cured, but if ones condition was resolved because ones body no longer allowed the molecules that caused it into the body then i would say that one was cured.
If i had the disease i wouldn't give a rats arse, because it would be gone


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## hugh

Sorry i ended up highjacking this post,

Raw food good (transition needs to be managed), easy on the fruit (high fructose), take suplements (zinc, D3, etc). Keep your doctor in the loop.
Consider similarities with other 'successful' diets - no grain, no sugar?
Good luck.

Last one,  the highlights are mine

*Mechanisms of Disease: the role of intestinal barrier function in the pathogenesis of gastrointestinal autoimmune diseases*

Alessio Fasano* and Terez Shea-Donohue 

http://www.elisaact.com/test/pdfs/EAB-Autoimmunity-Intestinal-Barrier.pdf
Summary

The primary functions of the gastrointestinal tract have traditionally been perceived to be limited to the digestion and absorption of nutrients and electrolytes, and to water homeostasis. A more attentive analysis of the anatomic and functional arrangement of the gastrointestinal tract, however, suggests that another extremely important function of this organ is its ability to *regulate the trafficking of macromolecules* between the environment and the host through a barrier mechanism. Together with the gut-associated lymphoid tissue and the neuroendocrine network, the intestinal epithelial barrier, with its intercellular tight junctions, *controls the equilibrium between tolerance and immunity to nonself-antigens*. *When the finely tuned trafficking of macromolecules is dysregulated in genetically susceptible individuals, both intestinal and extraintestinal autoimmune disorders can occur.* This new paradigm *subverts traditional theories underlying the development of autoimmunit*y, which are based on molecular mimicry and/or the bystander effect, *and suggests that the autoimmune process can be arrested if the interplay between genes and environmental triggers is prevented by re-establishing intestinal barrier function*. Understanding the role of the intestinal barrier in the pathogenesis of gastrointestinal disease is an area of translational research that encompasses many fields and is currently receiving a great deal of attention. This review is timely given the increased interest in the role of a 'leaky gut' in the pathogenesis of gastrointestinal diseases and the advent of novel treatment strategies, such as the use of probiotics."


"prevention is better than cure, but treatment makes the most money"
that's me, not them


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## Mountaingem

I believe this could work if your immune system has sucessfully held the disease at bay. I have a friend for example that tests positive for Crohn's disease markers and adheres to a very strict organic diet high in antioxidants.

But as vonfunk said, once the immune system is breached by disease, now it's a totally different situation. Like with myself, I've had colon cancer. Telling me to eat a diet in fiber to prevent it now isn't enough; I need the appropriate treatment.

Also, just because a person doesn't show outward signs of illness in no way means cured; I think controlled might be a better term. HIV/AIDS patients can often test negative for HIV once the medications begins working; things change once the treatment is stopped. Same with diabetes, blood glucose may be controlled with diet, but that doesn't mean you are cured.

I understand people need to feel in control of their health and well-being, and I applaud any efforts people make in this area-both with traditional and alternative therapies. But the overall tone that many of us bristle at is that we could be cured if we cared enough to watch our diet and educate ourselves.  I find this to be, quite frankly, insensitive. And the alternative therapies are not being offered out there for free out of the goodness of their hearts; they stand to gain just like the big pharm.


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## hugh

maybe i am a bit too enthusiastic, but i'm not trying to piss people off, (it just comes naturally)

I respect that many have tried all sorts of things, and that it hasn't worked for many of them, but i don't respect people saying don't bother, it's hopeless.

one thing is obvious, everyone gets it differently and some far worse than others.

But to say it is too late is to miss the whole point of the research.....

"suggests that the autoimmune process can be arrested if the interplay between genes and environmental triggers is prevented by re-establishing intestinal barrier function "

this seems pretty easy to follow but i'll translate

"suggests that the autoimmune process can be stopped by re-establishing intestinal barrier function"

This suggests that IBD (and MS and Diabetes (type 1) and about 80 other autoimmune diseases) may actually be symptoms of intestinal permeability and aberrant intestinal microbiota [bad tummy bacteria].

the immune system isn't 'breached', it's on the offensive. The immune system mistakes some part of the body as a pathogen and attacks it.

If you try to improve your intestinal health you might not be cured but you're quality of life will probably improve and i think each step in the right direction is worth the effort.

To compare a naturapath telling you to eat right with big pharma is just a bit rich, don't you think?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.htm
"The industry spent approximately US$61,000 in promotion per physician during 2004"

Peace and love


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## Mountaingem

Oh I believe that probiotics and eating right are definitely helpful for sure. I wasn't speaking of a naturopath telling you to eat right; I was speaking about people who claim to have had Crohn's or some other disease that they "cured".  They are making huge money off supplements and specifically market to desperate people. 

I don't need an article to tell me what big pharm makes; they get close to $4000 dollars from me each month.


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## vonfunk

There is no point in continuing this "discussion" as neither will agree no matter what is placed in front of them.

But I would like to point out "Big Pharma" is not in the disease curing business, they never have been. Big Pharma cures infections, Big Pharma helps control disease and mitigates symptoms. Big Pharma balances imbalances, but they never were in the business of curing disease.   

Universities, hospitals, private think tanks, NGOs etc. are the ones who do the research that cures. You paint the entire industry as corrupt. And perhaps that is partially true in the states where the laws are lax, the rich stay healthy and the sick stay poor.  If your doctor doesn't listen to what you have to say about your treatment, and if you aren't the one guiding your treatment, then you are with the wrong doctor.  But to paint all doctor with that brush is wrong.

Also Paracelsus thought that all disease came from poison and those poisons came from the stars. He also thought that amulets could cure disease.  While his work with chemicals paved the way for modern medicine.  He's not exactly the one to quote regarding his philosophical musings.


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## Mountaingem

Good call vonfunk-let's get back to raw foods. When I am flaring I particularly like juicing pinapple-I can tolerate it well and the bromelain in it is very good for inflammation. Aloe Vera works well, too-though I buy the George's brand, I am a little iffy about using what is growing in my yard, as the cats, a racoon family and an opposum seem to enjoy them, too.


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## glory_h

Mountaingem - 

I've heard really good things about pineapple too! You don't find it to be too acidic?

Also heard good things about aloe vera juice. You can get a big bottle/container at Trader Joe's for a good price. I just started putting it in my smoothies - we'll see how it goes!


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## Mountaingem

I haven't found them to be too acidic, but a friend of mine who has Crohn's and is going the natural route recomments that if I do find them acidic, to add an apple with it, so maybe this can help you Glory.


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## glory_h

Good tip! Thanks. Juicing seems like a great way to get some nutrients. I have yet to own a juicer, though. Does anyone have any recommendations?


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## Mountaingem

My best friend gave me a  Breville Die-Cast Juice Fountain Elite-he got it at Bed Bath and Beyond. The price is a little steep $299, but with juicers in my experience you get what you pay for. I kept buying cheaper ones and they would burn out so fast, and I'm not an everyday juicer. What I spent in cheaper models was more than this one. It can juice anything with ease, which is really awesome. When I juice veggies for my hubby I save the pulp and use it to make a stock to drink, too-it's how I get my veggies without all the fiber.


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## vonfunk

Jeannette - you should be able to divide one of the aloe plants and more it inside the house near a window.  If you wash it down before you bring it in and let it grow for awhile it'll remove any issues that could be cause by animals.  With that in mind, I've never actually seen on growing outside, just small ones that my mother has kept since I was younger, they see to keep multiplying.


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## Mountaingem

@Jason-Great idea, thank you! My plants are huge and split easily into two plants. So when it gets over the shock of being transplanted, I'll give juicing a shot and update everyone.


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## Gianni

Hello Jannicke! Glad to hear you've done your research and found possible benefits to a raw diet. Well lemme tell you my experience with it. I was diagnosed with crohn's only a year and 6 months ago.. but immediately after being diagnosed i was told that i would have to go on some scary medications... i said hell no and started to do my homework and i found what you did. and i acted on it. 

The problem why more people don't do this is because their doctors tell them "oh well i don't think its a good idea to put raw high fiber foods into an inflammed instestine" But thats just nonsense! I soon found out that doctors know lil to nothing about the importance of food and nutrition.. MY G.I. said to eat soft foods like jello, puddings, white bread, fish and pureed and steemed vegetables.. but once the vegetables are pureed, you lose all the essential fiber! and once the vegetables are steemed you lose half the nutrients and 100% of the enzymes necessary for properly absorbing the nutrients!. after a few weeks of this "soft diet" i felt worse than i did while i was in the hospital! i quickly changed to a raw vegan diet... and ever since i have never felt better! even way before my diagnosis. It makes all the sense in the world to feed your body nutrients so that it can heal itself. Our body is made of vitamins and minerals not immunosuppressant drugs! 

If i had one suggestion for you before starting this raw vegan diet it would be to detox your entire body first. The average person these days has a massive amount of toxins coming from foods and what not. You can detox your body by doing colonics.. drinking plenty of water and doing black coffee enemas (those help alot!).. the enemas help flush out harmful metals such as mercury in your body.. if you've ever had mercury fillings or a flu vaccine you probably have mercury in your body (which i think may contribute to alot of people's crohn's disease) not to even mention the toilet paper companies who thought it would be distasteful to keep the paper its natural color so they bleached it with mercury.. and yet we use it near our intestines every day! Anyways by clearing out the toxins you are allowing your body to absorb more nutrients. Doctors say that crohn's can cause malnutrition because of less absorption but people dont seem to realize that maybe your body isn't absorbing the nutrients because something else is taking that space.. Toxins! after clearing toxins out of your body and allowing nutrients to hold within.. i promise you, you are going to feel 1000% better... and maybe you can cure yourself from this disease. i know its early for me to say such a thing.. but i sincerely believe i MAY have cured myself from crohn's with this raw vegan diet. 

It's going to be hard at first! but all it takes is some patience and self control.


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## hugh

ha, i start to see why some people get a bit pissed about 'cures',

Lets get it straight....
A raw food diet might help you alot, you might even forget you've got crohn's.
*It might not help at all, there are lots of other factors*,
but it's worth a try.

As i understand it three factors come togeather to create a 'perfect storm'.
Genes, a trigger, and permiability to bring the two togeather.

You can't change your genes but talking to a professional (not a quack) about leaky gut/ intestinal permeability would be a good start. Not eating as many trigger foods as possible would be the other step.

My primary health care professional is a Homeopath but he is also a London trained GP, so he understands both views and has realistic expectations, and knows when to use drugs.

There are real doctors who go on to study complimentary techniques such as naturopathy or "enviromental and nutritional" medicine at a post-gruduate level .
I wouldn't go to someone who did a 6 month correspondence course and anyone who gives you electrodes to hold is 99% quack in my books


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## vonfunk

Hugh, we've had at least one quack that I know of work his way into the forum, it started a big ruckus.  He started getting, well let's just say he started offensive once we started checking into his background and credentials and digging up that he had been banned from similar forums.  It can be a touchy subject.


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## Lise-Anne

Living in Montreal where it's presently -2 celsius, the last thing I feel like eating is cold raw food. Here's what works for me: an excellent acupuncturist, Omega 3, high quality pro-biotics, vitamin D and a diet based on the principles of Chinese dietetics which includes little raw food, especially in a cold-climate environment.  The last flare-up dates back to October 2001.  I've been off anti-inflammatory pills since 2003.  To each his own, I suppose.


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## hugh

I don't eat a raw food diet either, and i wouldn't recommend it, but i am interested in why it works for some people.
I found this vid very interesting, a doctor with MS and how she helped herself with diet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KLjgBLwH3Wc


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## Lise-Anne

I don't like that the hunter-gatherer or paleolithic diet excludes grains, even the gluten-free grains.  What's wrong with rice, quinoa and buckwheat?  Man has been eating cooked grain for at least 10,000 years.  That's enough for this neolithic.
Every diet has detractors: macrobiotic adepts will rip into raw food afficionadoes.
Vegans will rip into paleo diet followers. I think IBD folks should eat the highest-quality foods that work for them.  For me it's: mostly cooked, non-processed, organic, gluten-free and dairy-free food.


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## hugh

Lise-Anne said:


> I don't like that the hunter-gatherer or paleolithic diet excludes grains, even the gluten-free grains.  What's wrong with rice, quinoa and buckwheat?  Man has been eating cooked grain for at least 10,000 years.  That's enough for this neolithic.


sigh............
10,000 years is a gnat's piss in evolutionary terms,
and we would have been eating the merest fraction of what most people now consume. and they would have been of natural origin too. and not processed to paste.............

yes, wheat seems to be the worst, and rice one of the best tolerated, but Dr. Wolfgang Lutz claimed that after 1.5 years 85% of a 103 person IBD study group were asymptomatic (remission) on a low-carb diet.
 (DISMANTLING A MYTH: The Role of Fat and Carbohydrates in our Diet 
by Dr. Med. Wolfgang Lutz) 
That's 85%, that's potentially 8 and a half out of every ten people who read this..........

Please, eat whatever you want, what you eat doesn't affect my digestion at all.
Some people are affected more (due to genetics, their intestinal health, vaccinations (controversial) etc.) than others

This is just a short summary, i have missed important bits,some descriptions are copied from various sources (in quotes) and it might not be as scientific as some would like but just get onto google and check it out for yourselves.....


Grains are high in lectins (a protein than binds to carbohydrates)
(Beans and Soy are also high in saponins and even a small amount can cause leaky gut but that's another story)

Lectins are found in plants and animals.
One function of lectins in plants is to make them poisonous to protect the seed (grain). They can cause intestinal distress (diarrhea, nausea, bloating, vomiting, even death)

Cooking destroys some of the lectins but not all.

from http://www.vrp.com/digestive-health...l-health-rheumatoid-arthritis-and-weight-loss
(yes, it's a vitamin website, but they list their sources)
"The important point is that some of the lectins consumed in everyday foods act as chemical messengers _that can in fact bind to the sugars of cells in the gut and the blood cells, initiating an inflammatory response_. In wheat, gliadin, a component of gluten and an iso-lectin of wheat germ agglutinin (WGA), is capable of activating NF kappa beta proteins which, when up-regulated, _are involved in almost every acute and chronic inflammatory disorder including neurodegenerative disease, inflammatory bowel disease, infectious and autoimmune disease_s. Scientific literature shows that _dietary lectins can dramatically reduce natural killer (NK) cell activity directly and through disruption of intestinal flora_. Natural killer cells are one of the body’s most important defenses against viruses and other invaders."


"As intestinal cells age they become less glycosylated due to the loss of glycoconjugates. The intestinal lining of people with *Crohn’s disease and IBS (irritable bowel syndrome) appear to be more sensitive to the effects of food lectins because the lining is constantly being replaced by new tissue that is made up of immature cells* that are more glycosylated and thus more susceptible to lectin attachment. "

Lectins may cause or exacerbate intestinal permeability, allowing toxins to cross the intestinal barrier, enter your blood stream and begin immune problems.

copied from somewhere............
"So i'd suggest an elimination diet.

During a period of at least one month, but preferably three months, you abstain totally from the following foods:

    All cereal grains like wheat, rye, barley, corn and rice and derived products like bread and pasta
    Legumes like beans, lentils and dry peas, including soy and peanuts and derived products like oils
    The nightshades like potatoes, tomatoes, (bell) peppers and eggplant (sweet potatoes are no nightshades)
    Eggs
    Dairy
    All plant seed oils except coconut oil and some virgin cold-pressed olive oil
    Nuts (they also contain a lot of the proinflammatory omega-6)
    Processed and canned foods
    Starchy foods, sugars, artificial sweeteners, soft drinks, candy, fruit juices
    Alcoholic beverages
    All additives (E numbers)

 After the period of one to three months you can carefully and separately reintroduce eggs, nightshades, legumes and dairy and determine what these foods do to you. If they make you feel worse, eliminate them forever. In any case abstain from grains and soy for life; they (the lectins they contain) at the end of the day bring havoc to everybody. Furthermore keep severely limiting the other foods from the list above"


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## Lise-Anne

yes, I've read all that literature backing the paleo diet.  I've also read literature from folks who challenge it.  Anthropologists challenge what hunter-gatherers ate and for how long.  Medicine challenges man's adaptability.  Nutritionists challenge the problem of eating such large quantities of animal protein and eliminating the entire grain family. There is one concensus: eating highly processed, high-glycemic food is unhealthy. Another concensus: absolutely do try an elimination diet.


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## hugh

Lise-Anne, we probably agree on more than we disagree,
like quality in foods and taking responsibility for what we eat.

 There is always a danger with labelling things.
I say paleo and somebody else thinks that they know what i'm talking about
("oh yeah, that thing with skinned chicken breasts and salad"  or "oh, you mean Aitkins, just eating fat, how gross")

This is what i love about the vid i posted earlier, she has worked out what type of veggies and how much of them based on their nutritional content, and doesn't stress meat other than to recommend grass fed and organ meat.
She is a living example of the benefits her diet, she has a background in conventional medicine and has a serious autoimmune disease.

Historical Paleo diets would obviously have varied enormously based upon location and season, and personally, i'd hate to have had to survive on whale blubber. 
When i started Paleo i ate too much meat, and it took me a while to understand that veggies are the biggest part of paleo

I'd be interested in articles against paleo, i haven't seen any that i took seriously, and can speak from personal experience about increased energy levels and wellbeing


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## Gutrot

sunluvva said:


> There are many types of raw food diets touted on the net and some are as harmful as eating burgers and pizza everyday with very high fat contents and loads of nuts and dehydrated foods.


The key to spotting the 'harmful' diets is to look at the # of calories you get in a day, and where the calories come from.  It should give you between 2000-3500 calories depending on the individual.

Calories should come mainly from carbohydrates.  Any diet that gets a disproportionate number of calories from a non-carbohydrate source (fats or proteins or processed sugar) is dangerous whether it is raw or cooked.

Many raw food diets when you look at them, provide way way less than 3000 calories a day. That's why people feel so bad after being on them for any length of time.


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## Gutrot

> Originally Posted by Lise-Anne
> I don't like that the hunter-gatherer or paleolithic diet excludes grains, even the gluten-free grains. What's wrong with rice, quinoa and buckwheat? Man has been eating cooked grain for at least 10,000 years. That's enough for this neolithic.


Brown rice, whole wheat, whole rye, and generally whole grains would have been what was eaten.  Not white rice, refined white wheat, and rye bread or refined flours made from those grains.

Did I miss the part about how healthy people have been?  When the modern diets first started being widely documented, people had absolutely no clue what our body's requirements were, empires were just trying to keep their slaves alive - scurvy anyone?  And has anyone seen a country's 'Food Guide' from the turn of last century?


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## Erwin

Hi Jannicke,
Rae food helps in losing and maintaining weight and prevent from stroke, heart disease and high blood pressure. Raw food boost our energy also.


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## secrets

You guys are amazing that you can eat RAW FOODS --- In the last decade, the only thing RAW I've eaten is the occasional Ceasar Salad, and only when I'm eating at someone's home as a guest, I'll naw on a little bit to avoid embarrassment.  Otherwise, nothing raw (except banana) has passed my lips in more than a decade.  my veggies are all cooked to a mush, and I oftentimes eat babyfood, just so I can get some veggie in me.  

I drink a lot of milk, eat meat or fish almost every day, canned veggies and canned fruit
like fruit cocktail or canned pears.  Fresh Banana is it in terms of a fresh raw fruit.  Lettuce is it in terms of fresh raw veg.  No seeds, No nuts, I make a lot of soup and I rely on pills for most of my nutrition, and needles! and ENSURE which I buy by the pallet practically.

I make my own pasta sauce which I load up with shredded veg, cooked forever, so at least I am getting something in my system.

I YEARN for a strawberry or rasberry.  GOOD GOING guys who are eating these things.


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## meatpoet

Hi all,

I have UC...I know it have been covered already but I just have to contribute because maybe it will help someone else, which is what I REALLY care about.  I tried the raw juice vegan diet and was blow away because the entire time I was symptom free and pain free (not 'cured' because the symptoms came right back when I reestablished my regular vegetarian diet).  

Obviously this wont work for everyone and even I don't have the discipline to maintain it (I get a tremendous amount of joy and satisfaction from cooking and creating food), but I love knowing that when I want to I can live pain free by consuming a raw juice diet (and I literally throw in every type of veg and fruit I can, consuming a huge variety in the juices and a small amount of nut milks for the omegas).  

When eating my normal vegetarian diet (and suffering through my pain) I manage a lot of the symptoms and pain with peppermint tea too and when in severe pain enteric coated peppermint oil (a-maz-ing!!)...I guess peppermint is anti-spasmodic which is why it works for me (lol).

Anyway, I don't want anyone to think I'm pushing something...just saying what is working for me (which is the whole idea of a forum, right?) 

Kiki


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## musicislife52

Could anyone following a raw vegan diet write up a typical days worth of food (with recipes if you don't mind - raw soups are of particular interest to me!)? I'd like to try it out, but want ideas! I have smoothies almost everyday, and salad (not sure if I should be eating salads though... good dressing idea is to blend some of the salad and pour it over your salad! add avocado for a creamy dressing ), and try to always have tons of bananas and dates in my room to ward off cravings for junk.  

Have any raw foods been terrible ideas or ultra-soothing?


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## mogre

All you vegans out there, my vegan sister DIED from refusing to take D3 supplements.  D3 is not vegan.  D2 is vegan, but it is not metabolized the same as D3 and is vastly inferior.  Check the Tufts University Medical School website and others.  If you live in northern Europe or the northern US you are not going to be able to get enough D3 from the sun.  There isn't enough sun, especially in winter.

My sister did not have specific IBD, she had dermatomyositis - which did turn her entire GI tract into an ulcerated mess.  This is not usual with her particular immune system disease, only the worst cases, but her D3 deficiency was so bad she never went into remission regardless of treatment.

When I was diagnosed with Crohn's you can be sure I had my serum D3 levels checked and increased my supplement when they dropped.


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## lola99

I personally believe that any diet that cuts out an entire food group is usually bad. But each person is affected by food or certain foods differently. Alot of people can't handle grains and dairy when they have crohns disease. Raw foods are all fine if your not in a flare up. But some vegetables are dangerous if you eat them raw in large amounts (cabbage,broccoli,etc). Steam them! I have been struggling with trying to get to 100% remission for a year and half. I just started a "clean" diet and have been doing really well. My bm's are back to a normal persons with no pain and i have no cramps,mouth ulcers,etc. I eat little to no processed food, including hardly any gluten containing foods (i get all my fiber ,plus some for the day without eating bread and cereal). I do have sprouted bread maybe once a week. Sprouted grains are supposed to be easier to digest. I also eat meat at every meal because if i didn't i would be starving and cranky.I write down everything i eat and its nutritional value. I track my fiber,servings of fruits and vegetables,protein,carbs,fats,calories. So far its working great for me and i have been feeling alot better. I also take supplements (b vitamin complex,calcium/zinc/magnesium,aloe Vera juice), not everyday but when i remember. All these diets out their sound promising but in my opinion a healthy diet does not exclude an entire food group. Unless its dairy or wheat and your sensitive to them.


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## mogre

I so agree with you that healthy diet does not exclude entire food group!  My sister was the only vegan in the family - and diagnosed with autoimmune disease at the youngest age.  Weirdly, each person in the family with autoimmune disease has a different one.  Anyway, I have been lactose intolerant and off dairy for years.  Went off gluten when I was being tested for what IBD I had (starting as soon as they finished the celiac test) and while I don't have celiac, my Crohn's is greatly aggravated by gluten.  Also by refined sugar.  So, sadly, those delicious gluten free brownies don't work because of the sugar.  I think your approach is very sensible, I admire your discipline.  You inspire me to follow your example.


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## Faye11

Vitamin D3 with sunlight. 

if you're not attracted to a food in its raw state, isnt it proof enough that you werent born to eat it? do you smell a live pig and want to eat it as is? i doubt it. 

i dont get why some people can't even consider making lifestyle changes and would rather destroy themselves with harsh drugs. It may not work for everyone, but it can't hurt to try.


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## hugh

some very good words of advice from RawFoodSOS (ex vegan, clued up, and now a meat eater, but well worth considering)

"_-Eat real food—no fake meats, processed soy products, vegan junk food, etc.
-Avoid high omega-6 vegetable oils and take a vegan DHA supplement.
-Supplement with vitamin K2.
-Supplement with a vegan form of vitamin D3.
-Enhance your beta carotene absorption and conversion.
-Properly prepare any grains, legumes, or nuts you eat.
-Maximize iron absorption using vitamin-C-rich foods.
-Keep your thyroid in good shape.
-Take vitamin B12.
-Try going gluten-free.
-Eat some fermented foods.
-Supplement with taurine.
-Consider adding oysters or other non-sentient bivalves to your diet_"

for the long version with a detailed explanation of each point http://rawfoodsos.com/for-vegans/


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## mogre

As far as I know there is no strictly vegan form of D3.  What specific product are you referring to?


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## hugh

hugh said:


> for the long version with a detailed explanation of each point http://rawfoodsos.com/for-vegans/


"Source of Life Garden Vitamin D3 and Vitashine Vegan Vitamin D3 are currently the only vegan vitamin D3 supplements in existence. I highly recommend using either of those over the D2 versions more commonly available. I personally take about 5,000 IUs a day, but you may need to adjust your intake depending on your body size, how much sun you get, and whether you’re trying to aggressively treat a deficiency versus maintaining healthy vitamin D levels. (Also be aware that a small number of people react negatively to vitamin D supplementation, so be on the lookout for any adverse symptoms.)"


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## mogre

Thanks!  Excellent to know someone came up with a vegan D3.  Wish it had been available in the UK while my sister was still alive.  I take non-vegan D3 as I am not a vegan, in fact the food that is easiest for me to eat without provoking exploding gut syndrome is chicken.


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## mogre

Not sure I understand what is a raw food "culture"
Only cultured food I understand is yoghurt, which I cannot eat since I am extremely lactose intolerant.


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## hugh

rejuvelac - from cabbage - http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/articles/pre1.phpn)
rejuvelac - from grains - http://www.rawmazing.com/rejuvelac/l

fermented foods (not all healthy) - http://www.rejoiceinlife.com/recipes/menu.php


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## Nora

i had read many of the comments and a lot of people are forgetting about the pesticides 

i think 80% of organic raw food is the way to go when you are in your good times, when you made a mistake like me that i ate hard corn and didnt tolerate it, then you have to go easy for a little bit to stop the digestion and give time to heal. 

i am in the process now, no pain but blood, i will tell you how it went. 

greetings from chile. .)


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## MoonHawk

The main thing, as others mention, if you want to do raw foods is to make sure you don't use anything with hulls (e.g. whole sunflower or pumpkin seeds). Juicing for a while at first will give the digestive tract a rest and help it to heal. But you may find, as I do, that flareups are related mainly to carbohydrates. If I want to be comfortable, I have to get my carbs down to about 20 grams per day, all from low-carb veggies. In my experience, that totally works.


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## crohnspanda

updates from anyone following a raw diet? lets revive this thread! I've got some input if you guys are still around.


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