# Is being vegetarian possible?



## RFarmer

Can I do it? I know there's tons of people who're gonna say "yeah probably, just eat lots of lentils"...

I actually want to plan out a diet. 

I need protein, because I need to get in shape.

But I can't force myself to eat meat anymore. 

wat do


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## AlliRuns

For a perfectly healthy normal individual, yes, being vegetarian is possible. When you add diseases of the digestive tract to the mix, then it becomes a matter of what you can tolerate and what you can't.

I can't tolerate beef or pork, so I tried cutting out meat all together for awhile thinking it would make me feel better. My problem was, there are so many things that vegetarians rely on to get their protein that my body doesn't tolerate, i.e. Quinoa, tofu, nuts and seeds, beans, and the list goes on. Quinoa was by far the worst experiment ever, highly digestible, as if. 

My suggestion is try it and see what your body will tolerate.


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## MommaZ

You could try juicing - have found that I can tolerate fruits and vegetables better if they are juiced. Always eat your fruit in the morning for breakfast, that way it's not sitting in your tract on top of other food. If it does that it will start to ferment before you can digest maybe something like starch or proteins. Hope this helps


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## marjory2020

I agree with what AlliRuns said. It's a lot more complicated when you add Crohn's into the mix! There's also different types of vegetarians, too, there's even flexitarians who can eat meat (though of course it's only very sparingly). And there's more than just protein that your body takes from meat. I would also say to do research on a sample vegetarian diet and then compare it to what you body can take. Good luck!


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## bangarang

Yes its possible, read up on the Dr McDougall program he promotes a vegan diet, some of the people on that board have crohns/colitis and found good success with his diet. Its basically low fat, high carb vegan diet.


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## hugh

do you want to go Veg for ethical reasons or for health reasons?

-if for ethical reasons
how about eating less meat but of better quality from ethical free range suppliers?

-if for health reasons , there are better diets for crohn's (in my humble opinion)
protein that doesn't cause 'leaky gut' will be a problem - fermented organic tempeh should be ok, eggs and hard yellow cheese, not much else
there are plenty of sources of carbs and fats that don't lead to intestinal permeability (leaky gut). tubers (not potatoes though), vegetables, avocados, coconut, olive oil

I've found that avoiding certain foods is the key to remission for me,
Most of those foods are staples of the vegetarian diet (grains, legumes, seed oil)
Paleo vegetarian would be almost impossible


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## DustyKat

Sarah is solidly in remission but she has successfully been vegetarian and has now moved onto to being vegan and raw vegan. It goes without saying that everyone is highly individual when it comes to diet and I know what works for Sarah would be agony for others. She also juices daily but only vegetables as she has significantly reduced the amount of sugar in her diet. 

Dusty. xxx


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## livegreen

bangarang said:


> Yes its possible, read up on the Dr McDougall program he promotes a vegan diet, some of the people on that board have crohns/colitis and found good success with his diet. Its basically low fat, high carb vegan diet.


Hi, glad you mention this.

Dr. Mc dougal, and Dr.Fuhrman both recommend a Vegan diet. They both based their diets on "The China Study", recently they made a movie: Forkes Over Knives, another movie " Fat Sick and Nearly dead illustrates how Joe gets rid of his Chronic Autoimmune symptoms following Dr.Fuhrman's protocol.

I hated most meat(I only like ribs and heavily seasoned meats). The problem was I had so much abdominal pain, constipation, hemorrhoids, gas and bloating.
Once I started eating according to Dr.Fuhrmans protocol, I have been doing so much better.
Dr.Mcdougal, bases his diet on Starches, He wrote the Starch Solution, Dr.Fuhrman basis his diet on Nutrition. He encourages people to eat high nutrient foods like Kale. He explains all this in his book" Eat to Live".

It is really easy to do, because it is soooo worth it.
Good Luck


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## RFarmer

livegreen said:


> Hi, glad you mention this.
> 
> Dr. Mc dougal, and Dr.Fuhrman both recommend a Vegan diet. They both based their diets on "The China Study", recently they made a movie: Forkes Over Knives, another movie " Fat Sick and Nearly dead illustrates how Joe gets rid of his Chronic Autoimmune symptoms following Dr.Fuhrman's protocol.
> 
> I hated most meat(I only like ribs and heavily seasoned meats). The problem was I had so much abdominal pain, constipation, hemorrhoids, gas and bloating.
> Once I started eating according to Dr.Fuhrmans protocol, I have been doing so much better.
> Dr.Mcdougal, bases his diet on Starches, He wrote the Starch Solution, Dr.Fuhrman basis his diet on Nutrition. He encourages people to eat high nutrient foods like Kale. He explains all this in his book" Eat to Live".
> 
> It is really easy to do, because it is soooo worth it.
> Good Luck


Most of those sound like things I should AVOID with crohn's. Is the diet actually tailored for IBD, or is it just one of those "yeah my diet is so good it'll cure cancer and bring down the moon" kinda things?


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## hugh

_"The key to treating autoimmune illnesses is to obey the
H = N/C formula. Only then can the immune system begin to normalize its haywire circuitry. - Dr. Joel Fuhrman, Eat to Live"_

hmmm, health  = nutritional density divided by calories,

might do you some good for a while, if you want to loose weight that is.

_"Dr. Joel Fuhrman's Dietary Protocol for Autoimmune Disease

    High-nutrient, vegan diet (no dairy), rich in green vegetables
    Blended salads/smoothies and blended soups (utilizing leafy greens) to increase absorption of phytochemicals
    Fresh vegetable juice (carrots, beets, parsley, kale, and other greens)
    High-dose fish oils or plant-derived EPA and DHA (fish oil is best for autoimmune sufferers)
    Beneficial bowel flora (A very potent one he recommends is VSL #3)
    Natural anti-inflammatory herbs such as turmeric, quercetin, ginger, and bioflavanoids
    Multivitamin/mineral, plus additional vitamin D supplementation
    Supervised water-only fasting, used periodically, if necessary
    Dietary avoidance of salt, wheat, and oil

(source: Dr. Joel Fuhrman's Healthy Times newsletter, November 2004) "_

-The multivitamins will give you some of what your missing out on by not eating meat
-hard to follow on crohn's
-the big points are - no wheat, no veg oils, no sugar, lots of fresh (green) veg, so i'd give it 7/10 - better than most.


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## RFarmer

It just seems to me that it's a diet tailored to be good for you, ignoring the intricacies of IBD. It's like... Eat brocolli all day every day, because it's good for you. And of course, because it's good for you, it MUST help your immune system. So it MUST help IBD patients..


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## livegreen

RFarmer said:


> It just seems to me that it's a diet tailored to be good for you, ignoring the intricacies of IBD. It's like... Eat brocolli all day every day, because it's good for you. And of course, because it's good for you, it MUST help your immune system. So it MUST help IBD patients..


Oh no nothing like that, I actually do not like broccoli.
The reason Dr.F recommends high nutrient food does a lot more to our body then lose weight. For people who need to lose weight there is a different protocol. 

I read his book: Eat to Live, saw him on PBS, then I joined his website. There is a similar member support website like this one, there are Newsletters about IBD, Arthritis, Diabetes etc... There is a small fee for that. If you pay more then you get to Ask the Doctor, so people prescribe for a short time to that, get all there questions answered and then go back to the lower fee membership. 
People have joined from all over the world. He is not going to tell you eat broccoli and I promise you the moon. There are recipes on the website, and there is a whole community helping out with support for creating healthy delicious meals.
I am doing so much better that I feel like I got my life back, I am pretty much in remission, I take no medications for Crohn's, and have not for one year. I can't say that I was the whole year symptom free, I had one bad flare due to a long water fast that I should not have done, but I consulted with Dr.F and all I took was high doses of fish oils and VSL#3. In the past I was on many meds, I had terrible side effects.:ybatty:
 I ate according to his Crohn's Protocol, just as Hugh wrote. He does go more into depth about how to prepare your food depending on the fact whether you have blood in your stool and or how many times you go to theoo:
You can always read his book, email him and decide then.
I wish you all the best.


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## hugh

is this why the vegetatian diets of these people will work for a while?

DEAN ORNISH , MD: Limits sugar, corn syrup, white flour, margarine, vegetable oil, alcohol and any processed food with more than two grams of fat. Program involves smoking cessation, peer support, stress management and exercise.

CALDWELL ESSELSTYN, MD: Forbids vegetable oils, refined grains, white flour, and products made from enriched flour such as bread, pasta, bagels and baked goods. Uses statins to bring patients' cholesterol levels below 150.

JOHN MCDOUGALL , MD: Limits white flour, refined grains, sugar-coated cereals, soft drinks, processed carbohydrates, fruit juice and vegetable oils.

NEAL BARNA RD, MD: Forbids vegetable oils, high-glycemic foods, high fructose corn syrup, caloric sweeteners and fried starches like potato chips and french fries.

JOEL FUHRMAN , MD: Excludes refined foods, including vegetable oils.

Getting rid of empty and refined foods, especially vegetable oils—the common denominator in all these plant-based prescriptions—will make for improvements in almost everyone. But long term, without nutrient-dense animal foods, deficiencies will emerge.

source 
http://www.westonaprice.org/vegetarianism-and-plant-foods/the-china-study-myth


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## livegreen

hugh said:


> is this why the vegetatian diets of these people will work for a while?
> 
> DEAN ORNISH , MD: Limits sugar, corn syrup, white flour, margarine, vegetable oil, alcohol and any processed food with more than two grams of fat. Program involves smoking cessation, peer support, stress management and exercise.
> 
> CALDWELL ESSELSTYN, MD: Forbids vegetable oils, refined grains, white flour, and products made from enriched flour such as bread, pasta, bagels and baked goods. Uses statins to bring patients' cholesterol levels below 150.
> 
> JOHN MCDOUGALL , MD: Limits white flour, refined grains, sugar-coated cereals, soft drinks, processed carbohydrates, fruit juice and vegetable oils.
> 
> NEAL BARNA RD, MD: Forbids vegetable oils, high-glycemic foods, high fructose corn syrup, caloric sweeteners and fried starches like potato chips and french fries.
> 
> JOEL FUHRMAN , MD: Excludes refined foods, including vegetable oils.
> 
> Getting rid of empty and refined foods, especially vegetable oils—the common denominator in all these plant-based prescriptions—will make for improvements in almost everyone. But long term, without nutrient-dense animal foods, deficiencies will emerge.
> 
> source
> http://www.westonaprice.org/vegetarianism-and-plant-foods/the-china-study-myth


Dr.Fuhrman differs in his opinion that his diet calls for high nutrient foods, like GOMBS: Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans and Berries and Seeds. 
If you eat less then 6 ounces of meat per week, then there is no evidence that it contributes to disease.  
Dr.F does allow meat, just less, his diet is based on "The China Study" by Dr.Camble. if a person has Crohn's then it is better not to eat any meat except fish when Crohn's is under control.
Where as Mcdougal basis his diet on Starch. his diet is Vegan. if you take a vitamin B12 supplement then you do not need meat. You can take a supplement for vitamin D, and Zink. You can eat sea weed for iodine.

I personally take fish oils which is recommended by Dr.f for ppl with Crohn's.
I am not sure what the danger is in trying something even if it helps for a while, where I know that there are thousands of people whom have been helped. Dr.F has helped many ppl with IBD. I do not see why I should be eating a lot of meat when I see so many ppl around me getting sicker by the day. The amount of meat most ppl eat is horrific.
Also if I get relief for a while, then that is better then never. If a person continues eating a SAD diet( standard American diet) then you can bet that that person will only get sicker.
if you eat vegan cookies you are a vegan, but not healthy, because there is not much nutrition in a cookie, if you make GOMBS the majority of your diet then your body will heal.
Any way I think if any of you would read "Eat to Live" then you can make up your own mind.
BTW I think that Dr.dean Ornish was on to something with reversing heart disease but Dr.f takes it to a higher level.
P.S: Having the right bacterium balance in the gut is crucial. So taking a powerful Probiotic is essential.


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## hugh

livegreen said:


> -I am not sure what the danger is in trying something even if it helps for a while, where I know that there are thousands of people whom have been helped. Dr.F has helped many ppl with IBD.
> -I do not see why I should be eating a lot of meat when I see so many ppl around me getting sicker by the day.
> 
> P.S: Having the right bacterium balance in the gut is crucial. So taking a powerful Probiotic is essential.


I agree with you, you have to try things to see what helps you, and as i said, these vegetarian diets will help, - not necessarily because they are vegetarian, but because they avoid harmful foods and emphasise nutrient rich foods.
Almost anything is better than the SAD diet.

The china study has already been thoroughly debunked as poor science and gross misrepresentation of data, but people will believe what they want to believe. (Myself included) - for example
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/cancer/the-china-study-vs-the-china-study/
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...bAfpsPElU6BskMeVw&sig2=p8EXCm1aIQWHh_c0DODuAA
There is something Very wrong with how meat is 'produced' at every step of the process and it is making meat unhealthy but that is that same as your 'vegan cookies'.
Corn fed, steroid and antibiotic rich, wallowing in it's own excrement, and factory slaughtered -  not good

I TOTALLY AGREE - the right bacterium balance is crucial, 
Once again -for me it's more about what you don't eat than what you do eat,

I'm all for eating fresh unprocessed nutrient rich foods, I think we agree more than we disagree, but meat isn't the problem (modern meat production is a part of the problem)


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## livegreen

Yes I agree that we agree 
I saw the movie: Fast Food Nation and Food inc. I decided right then and there if I ever eat meat again, it would be from organic animals. Although I can not say that I would want to go back to eating meat now.
I first want to see where this Nutritarion diet takes me. So far I have had great progress, I am not 100% symptom free. I wish. I still suffer from Arthritis due to Crohn's.
I think that I am doing the right thing for myself now. 
I guess the question on the thread was is this doable? I would say yes, for me it was easy. I was so sick, and had suffered for so long that excluding a few things and adding many nutritious foods to my diet was an easy decision. I had nothing to lose.
I was so happy to see that I could enjoy vegetables that normally would rot in my fridge, waiting for me to say okay now I can throw this away.


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## kiny

If you go on a vegetarian diet you're going to either need to supplement or use soy. It's the only way to get your protein and B12 without resorting to meat or dairy. A veggy diet is very lacking in protein.


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## RFarmer

kiny said:


> If you go on a vegetarian diet you're going to either need to supplement or use soy. It's the only way to get your protein and B12 without resorting to meat or dairy. A veggy diet is very lacking in protein.


> a veggy diet is very lacking in protein

> use soy

hehehe.  Soy is a veggie!

But I get what you mean.


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## hugh

soy, 
there's a huge can of worms,
For every dozen websites telling me how toxic soy is, there are at least a dozen telling me how wonderful it is, and it probably won't be beneficial to bog down the debate too much.
Like wheat, soy wasn’t eaten by people until agriculture was developed.  Even then, soy wasn’t eaten by people until about 3000 years ago when the Chinese learned to ferment it.

I found this article to be fairly balanced, in that most articles are vehemently pro or anti soy, whereas this raises the issues without going into too much scientific detail (which you can research for yourselves) and without too much scaremongering
http://www.greenlivingonline.com/article/dangers-soy

for those who want to consume soy the  "cornicipia institute" has done a great study into organic soy and sorts out the real organic soy from the greenwash brands cashing in on the premium that people are willing to pay
"Part II also exposes the natural soy industry’s “dirty little secret”: its widespread use of the chemical hexane. Hexane is used to process nearly all conventional soy protein ingredients and edible oils and is prohibited when processing organic foods."
http://cornucopia.org/soysurvey/OrganicSoyReport/behindthebean_color_final.pdf

eden foods, who received the highest rating in the cornicopia report have their own webpage listing the 'myths' about soy and explaining how some may be true for other producers, but not them
http://www.edenfoods.com/articles/view.php?articles_id=80

for those interested in the "What's Wrong With Soy" side of the fence try this one (picked from hundreds because i like the guy)
http://paleodietlifestyle.com/dangers-soy/

From my point of view (Crohn's) - soy is a legume which is high in saponins, a compound that has been linked extensively to intestinal permeability, and without 'leaky gut' you don't have crohn's.

for other sources of leaky gut - http://en-gb.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=91579122972



I'd only eat organic fermented soy products (Tamari. Natto, Tempeh), and then in moderation


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## hugh

for those who chose to eat grains,
an article about the difference between traditional grain preparation and modern grain processing,

some excerpts 
"But many healthy societies consume products made from grains. In fact, it can be argued that the cultivation of grains made civilization possible and opened the door for mankind to live long and comfortable lives. Problems occur when we are cruel to our grains—when we fractionate them into bran, germ and naked starch; when we mill them at high temperatures; when we extrude them to make crunchy breakfast cereals; and when we consume them without careful preparation."

"Animals that nourish themselves on primarily on grain and other plant matter have as many as four stomachs. Their intestines are longer, as is the entire digestion transit time. Man, on the other hand, has but one stomach and a much shorter intestine compared to herbivorous animals. These features of his anatomy allow him to pass animal products before they putrefy in the gut but make him less well adapted to a diet high in grains—unless, of course, he prepares them properly. When grains are properly prepared through soaking, sprouting or sour leavening, the friendly bacteria of the microscopic world do some of our digesting for us in a container, just as these same lactobacilli do their work in the first and second stomachs of the herbivores."

http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/be-kind-to-your-grains


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## RFarmer

Well, thanks for all your input guys, but it's left me at another question...

what the hell am I supposed to eat?

No sugar, ok. No oil, ok. Less meat? Well, I wanted to be veg anyways. No grains? Wut? 

That leaves:

veggies
fruit

Of which most are known to not be good for us.

I'm just gonna start eating dirt.


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## hugh

i'm not a veggie (i was for 10 years though) but it's not that bad,
*Sweetners* (in moderation)
    Raw Honey, Maple Syrup, traditionally made Agave Nectar (Miel de Agave), Sorghum Syrup, Coconut Sugar, Palm Sugar, Molasses, Date Sugar, Cane Sugar, Fruit Juice, Muscovado and Sucanat are also natural sugars – but, again, no sweetener is the healthier choice, even if they are natural!.
*Oils*
High Heat/Frying/Browning
    Coconut oil
    Palm Oil
    Ghee (clarified butter)
Medium Heat/Light Sauteing
    Olive Oil
    Sesame Seed Oil
    Hazelnut Nut Oil
    Pistachio Nut Oil
Low Heat/Baking
    Pumpkin Oil
    Sunflower Oil
No Heat
    Fish Oil
    Flax Seed Oil
    Cod Liver Oil
    Hemp Seed Oil
    Oils Mentioned Above
*Grains*
No Wheat, but as my previous post said other grains should be prepared properly, not some 'shit in a box' breakfast cereal.
The same applies to legumes

Fruit and Veggies are the basis of a vegetarian diet.

"I'm just gonna start eating dirt."
Interesting - (not a recommendation, please don't eat dirt  )
-"UK scientists suggest that a type of friendly bacteria found in soil may affect the brain in a similar way to antidepressants."
-"Beneficial soil and plant based microbes used to be ingested as part of food grown in rich, unpolluted soil. However, for the last 50 years we have been sterilizing our soil with pesticides and herbicide"


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## Sandy A

I know everyone tolerates foods differently, but for me, I started working with a health coach a little over a year ago, began eliminating sugar, gluten (to see if that helped at all), dairy, and yes, meat also....I do however eat good quality fish and alaskan salmon and some tuna fish occasionally..I sprinkle hemp seeds on my salads for protein, eat quinoa (works okay for me) for a perfect protein and drink almond milk smoothies with frozen bananas, sugar free peanut butter and a little cocoa...I eat larrabars for mid morning snacks at work, millet bread toasted with earth balance butter...I'm tolerating most of this okay....I still have a few things I can't part with though, but overall I feel better with this lifestyle.


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## hugh

a very good reason for going veg (or eating quality grass fed meat)
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...-mad-cow-disease.aspx?e_cid=20120708_SNL_MS_1
"Chicken litter, a rendered down mix of chicken manure, dead chickens, feathers and spilled feed, is marketed as a cheap feed product for cows"
"....about one-third of the chicken litter concoction is spilled feed, which includes cow meat and bone meal often used to feed chickens......"
 did anybody say "mad cow"?


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## nogutsnoglory

David Klein has a book about being veg with crohns disease.


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## KatyBuckeye

I was vegetarian for several years until a few weeks ago.  I was just diagnosed with Crohn's (less than a week ago), but even before my official diagnosis, I started eating homemade chicken soup because I had a feeling that my body craved and needed it.  Since my diagnosis, I've done a lot of research into dietary means of controlling symptoms.  I've decided to go with the SCD diet.  While I've read that some people do adapt it in order to be vegetarian, I personally think that it would be far too hard.  My own vegetarian diet was very heavy into whole grains and legumes and I believe that contributed to my body's inflammatory state.  I was vegetarian for mostly ethical reasons because of the meat production means in this country.  I'm going with buying organic, grass-fed meats and trying to reconcile that a bit.  Good luck if you do decide to try a vegetarian diet- keep us updated on how it is working for you.


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## livegreen

Sandy A said:


> I know everyone tolerates foods differently, but for me, I started working with a health coach a little over a year ago, began eliminating sugar, gluten (to see if that helped at all), dairy, and yes, meat also....I do however eat good quality fish and alaskan salmon and some tuna fish occasionally..I sprinkle hemp seeds on my salads for protein, eat quinoa (works okay for me) for a perfect protein and drink almond milk smoothies with frozen bananas, sugar free peanut butter and a little cocoa...I eat larrabars for mid morning snacks at work, millet bread toasted with earth balance butter...I'm tolerating most of this okay....I still have a few things I can't part with though, but overall I feel better with this lifestyle.


This is what I have been doing, except that I take fish oil supplements instead of eating the fish. It has worked really well for me.


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## lager87

Ive been a vegetarian for 16years and was diagnosed with crohns not long ago. I get protien from dairy (cottage chesse is loaded with protien and is low in calories). Also, the imitation meats by morning star are pretty good. Last, there are plenty of protien drinks out. My fav is muscle milk (also the lowest in calories for the highest protien content). I was even told for several months that I couldnt eat raw veggies d/t a severe stricture. I found ways around that too, just had to get creative. For example, I made a "salad" using all the yummy ingredients in a salad except the lettuce (hard boiled eggs, shredded cheese, croutons, etc) and added the dressing. Hope some of this helps.


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## Twinks

I guess we're all like a unique individual ecosystem.  No single diet can possibly suit our individual needs.  I'm taking a little from all the diet suggestions available. Trial is where I am determining my individual discrimination.  It's a bummer though cause one day I can eat tomato sandwiches and the next, the bread had too much corn syrup or gluten or what ever evil ingredient it is that drives my intestines into a fit or the tomatoes too much fiber.  What a nightmare!  Fit for Life, by Harvey Diamond was my diet bible for many years and now I've found it to be ineffective, although I still adhere to some food combining principles.  Recently, after weeks of extremely sluggish bowels (only able to go if I use an enema) I've been juicing.  It's difficult to sustain my discipline in the evenings so I've been allowing myself small like a piece of baked chicken or potatoes and zucchini, and I'm seeing results!  I feel like the juicing isn't taxing my digestive system so the tissues can repair themselves.  I also added miralax to the mix.  A little nature and a little science...nice balance.


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## Sandy A

Livegreen, I'm a bit behind on my response   Are you still doing well on your diet?  Still working for me......I wondered if you have ever tried the omega swirl fish oil from barleans?  It tastes like an orange cream smoothie and has borage oil and flax oil.  I do that most of the time actually, but occasionally have fish or salmon or tuna. I really wish I could eat this way and be totally drug free though.  When my crohns is not managed well with meds, I don't do well eating fiber and fruit and raw vegs, otherwise I can.  I do have to be careful with fruit though.


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## livegreen

Hi Sandy,
Yes, and still doing very well. TY


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## kiny

Problem with vegans mindset and arguments I think is that most think it must be healthy cause it's plants or something, or do it for ideological reasons. 

Part of reason we are at the top of the food chain is meat, our body is built to digest meat, we have a very short GI tract, reason is we are meat eaters. We have the biggest brain of any animal, part of the reason, meat again. Vegetarian diets are low in protein, low in energy because of low calorie intake. You can live pretty healthy on low carb diets, you can not live healthy on low protein intake. Function of carbs = 1, energy. Function of amino-acids from protein = thousands. Meat has creatine, micronutrients you can never find in plants.

Vegetarian diets miss many essential amino-acids, you can not get them anywhere as complete as from your meat, one protein is not another protein, meat provides complete proteins, a vegetarian diet does not.

Maybe you don't want to eat cow meat or some other meat, but no meat at all, you will never ever get the amino-acids you need, no matter what supplements you use, meat is the best and most complete way to get your protein.

Then people say to avoid soy too, because it's not "natural", which is fine if you eat meat, but as a vegan? I want to know, how are you going to get all your amino-acids if you don't eat any protein at all. Going to live on green tea and salads?

Every time they test people who are vegans, they see they are too low on vitamin D, too low on amino-acids. People with crohn are already often nutrient deficient, vegan diet on top of that has the potential to make it much worse than it already is, I do not understand the arguments behind wanting to be a vegan if you have crohn.

Ideological reasons I don't understand either, I hear them all the time from vegetarians. We, humans, are on the top of the food chain, not any other animal, if we were vegans we would have never gotten on the top of the food chain, reason we are there is because we know how to kill other animals. Monkeys that we descent from are big meat eaters, vegetarian is not natural, it is unnatural.


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## Zarr

kiny said:


> Problem with vegans mindset and arguments I think is that most think it must be healthy cause it's plants or something, or do it for ideological reasons.
> 
> Part of reason we are at the top of the food chain is meat, our body is built to digest meat, we have a very short GI tract, reason is we are meat eaters. We have the biggest brain of any animal, part of the reason, meat again. Vegetarian diets are low in protein, low in energy because of low calorie intake. You can live pretty healthy on low carb diets, you can not live healthy on low protein intake. Function of carbs = 1, energy. Function of amino-acids from protein = thousands. Meat has creatine, micronutrients you can never find in plants.
> 
> Vegetarian diets miss many essential amino-acids, you can not get them anywhere as complete as from your meat, one protein is not another protein, meat provides complete proteins, a vegetarian diet does not.
> 
> Maybe you don't want to eat cow meat or some other meat, but no meat at all, you will never ever get the amino-acids you need, no matter what supplements you use, meat is the best and most complete way to get your protein.
> 
> Then people say to avoid soy too, because it's not "natural", which is fine if you eat meat, but as a vegan? I want to know, how are you going to get all your amino-acids if you don't eat any protein at all. Going to live on green tea and salads?
> 
> Every time they test people who are vegans, they see they are too low on vitamin D, too low on amino-acids. People with crohn are already often nutrient deficient, vegan diet on top of that has the potential to make it much worse than it already is, I do not understand the arguments behind wanting to be a vegan if you have crohn.
> 
> Ideological reasons I don't understand either, I hear them all the time from vegetarians. We, humans, are on the top of the food chain, not any other animal, if we were vegans we would have never gotten on the top of the food chain, reason we are there is because we know how to kill other animals. Monkeys that we descent from are big meat eaters, vegetarian is not natural, it is unnatural.



It is a myth that vegetarian diets miss essential amino-acids. Plant proteins are complete. Have you ever looked into it? How much protein do you think we need?

Function of carbs = 1 (energy), are you sure?

We do not have a very short GI tract. Carnivores do. We neither have developed canines nor claws to tear meat. I can give you tens of examples like this. How well do you think you or me would do trying to hunt without tools? Yes! We do have developed brains and we built tools but that came much much later. We started out eating plants and used tools to crack nuts/cut open fruit/vegetables. The human's GI tract today is ideal only for a completely plant based diet. However, most of us are *'behavioural'* omnivores.....there are so many reasons behind this. Since we're here on this forum, lets take IBD as an example. Most of us eat low-residue foods during a flare or say when we hit a low. Meat is low residue and we choose to eat meat (I'm talking about non-vegetarians here). That's just an example of behavioural carnivorism. 

Who said vegetarians/vegans eat just salad and drink green tea? 

Leaving ideological and ethical reasons aside, do you know how much damage the meat industry does to the planet? It's not surprising that we are the only spieces on earth that destroys it's own habitat.

Inspite of the fact that our anatomies are different from that of monkeys now, what primate are you referring to exactly? Big meat eaters? Tarsiers are the only primates that are 'big meat eaters'......and I think we are quite different? 

Vegans/vegetarians whose serum vitamin D/calcium/amino-acid levels are too low are either not eating a wide array of vegetarian/vegan foods or are just eating salad and drinking green tea. 

Several cultures have been purely vegetarian/vegan for thousands of years and have done very well! Including that of the country I live in, India. Please don't bring up the current situation here, we have a McDonald's every few miles, people love their refined foods, doctors prescribe antibiotics left and right.....and the list goes on.....


----------



## kiny

Zarr said:


> It is a myth that vegetarian diets miss essential amino-acids. Plant proteins are complete. Have you ever looked into it? How much protein do you think we need?


really?

It took me 2 seconds to find these studies in my bookmarks and it will take me 10 minutes to find 10 more.

I can also show you studies where there are serious vitamin and other micronutrient deficiencies amongst vegetarians.

And these are healthy people where uptake is optimal, which is often not the case for someone with crohn, these deficiencies will only be that much worse for someone with crohn.


----------



## kiny

vitamin deficiencies of children on vegetarian diet:


----------



## kiny




----------



## kiny

calcium, Kcal and vitamin D deficiencies causing growth retardation in vegan kids:


----------



## kiny

How "natural" is your vegetarian diet exactly if you need to start supplementing to even get adequate levels of vitamin D, B12, calcium, amino-acids, calories in general, and all the other deficiencies they find in vegans.

The reason people feel pumped after eating meat is not because it's in their head, it's because they get adequate amino-acids, B complex and creatine, and they manage to stay much longer in an anabolic state than vegans.

High calorie intake helps for crohn btw.


----------



## Zarr

kiny said:


> really?
> 
> It took me 2 seconds to find these studies in my bookmarks and it will take me 10 minutes to find 10 more.
> 
> I can also show you studies where there are serious vitamin and other micronutrient deficincies amongst vegetarians.
> 
> And these are healthy people where uptake is optimal, which is often not the case for someone with crohn, these deficiencies will only be that much worse for someone with crohn.


Great to see you like to rely on research data! How come you haven't come across The China Study? It's the most comprehensive study on health and nutrition *ever * conducted and it was lead by Dr. Campbell who is the Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University. He has received more than 70 grant years of peer-reviewed research funding and authored more than 300 research papers. The China Study was the culmination of a 20-year partnership of Cornell University, Oxford University and the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine.

As far as IBD is concerned, we all know that some things work for us, others don't. If meat was that nutritionally complete and healing, wouldn't it make a significant difference for each of us?


----------



## kiny

Zarr said:


> As far as IBD is concerned, we all know that some things work for us, others don't. If meat was that nutritionally complete and healing, wouldn't it make a significant difference for each of us?


Who says it doesn't, the small intestine uses glutamine (an amino-acid) extensively to repair itself, and meat is the best way to receive adequate glutamine, plants are much lower in glutamine, and their bioavailability is much lower.


----------



## Rossy

I'm a veggie and have been for 27 years, i do it for animal wellfare not health haha strangely enough, but what the hell as eating processed meat really aint that good for you either. Being a veggie with IBD is possible and remarkably easy these days. A varied diet is all that is required, any worries just take supplements.  Unatural.....i don't think so, this is how i've evolved!


----------



## kiny

Rossy said:


> Unatural.....i don't think so, this is how i've evolved!


we evolved into vegetarians? last I checked I thought we were omnivores


----------



## Rossy

kiny said:


> we evolved into vegetarians? last I checked I thought we were omnivores


Err, referring to me.....not the human race :smile:


----------



## Zarr

kiny said:


> How "natural" is your vegetarian diet exactly if you need to start supplementing to even get adequate levels of vitamin D, B12, calcium, amino-acids, calories in general, and all the other deficiencies they find in vegans.
> 
> The reason people feel pumped after eating meat is not because it's in their head, it's because they get adequate amino-acids, B complex and creatine, and they manage to stay much longer in an anabolic state than vegans.
> 
> High calorie intake helps for crohn btw.



I am a vegetarian and I can safely say that you can get your B12, calcium, vitamin D, amino-acids and calories from a vegetarian diet under normal conditions. When you bring Crohn's in the picture, you may need supplementation. Just like non-vegetarians do. So many non-vegetarian Crohnies need B12 shots and high doses of vitamin D. I can vouch for a vegetarian diet because I'm a vegetarian, I have had good results after having made some dietary changes and I've done my research. When it comes to a vegan diet, you might want to ask one of the member's here whose daughter is a vegan and is doing very well.


----------



## Zarr

kiny said:


> Who says it doesn't, the small intestine uses glutamine (an amino-acid) extensively to repair itself, and meat is the best way to receive adequate glutamine, plants are much lower in glutamine, and their bioavailability is much lower.


I was referring to meat, not to glutamine. Some people with Crohn's are ok with meat, some are not. There are so many people with Crohn's who eat meat *and* take supplemental glutamine.


----------



## Zarr

kiny said:


>


Malnutrition unfortunately is rampant in Chad, be it vegetarian diet induced or non-vegetarian diet induced. I would be happier to rely on research of the magnitude of The China Study lead by Dr. T Collin Campbell.


----------



## kiny

Zarr said:


> There are so many people with Crohn's who eat meat *and* take supplemental glutamine.


glutamine in free form is very unstable, even though I use glutamine supplement, it becomes unstable very fast in any solution (also in EN) and at room temperature, glutamine in meat is not unstable because it's not in free form

there is so much wrong with vegan diets when people think they can just supplement everything left and right an all will fall magically into place, no it won't, most vegans are amino deficient, and no amount of supplementing can replace complete proteins found in meat


----------



## Zarr

kiny said:


> glutamine in free form is very unstable, even though I use glutamine supplement, it becomes unstable very fast in any solution (also in EN) and at room temperature, glutamine is meat is not unstable because it's not in free form
> 
> there is so much wrong with vegan diets when people think they can just supplement everything left and right an all will fall magically into place, no it won't, most vegans are amino deficient, and no amount of supplementing can replace complete proteins found in meat


Pure glutamine in supplemental form remains stable for a short period of time but it can be absorbed by the body as long as you consume it immediately after add it to water or whatever you use. That's how body builders take their supplemental glutamine before/after a workout and that's when they need it most. They don't eat meat immediately before or after a work out. 

Well informed vegans are very healthy individuals. I know you think of skinny, unhealthly looking people when you think of vegans. Most people think so and that's not entirely wrong BECAUSE some vegans just don't know what to eat and how! You will usually see this in the west where vegetarians/vegans rely on soy/tofu for their protein (like in Poland and the UK mentioned in the research papers above) People usually convert to veganism on ethical grouds (which I really appreciate!) but sadly, they don't do it the way they should. The ones who do it right, have excellent results!

Google 'vegetarian/vegan bodybuilders', they look no where close to protein deficient to me


----------



## kiny

Zarr said:


> Well informed vegans are very healthy individuals.


No problem with vegans, but I don't understand crohn vegans. 

here are amino acids and how they work to mitigate crohn:

Glutamine (accelerates healing of the small intestine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2378557)

Isoleucine (enhances human beta defensin http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=40557)

Gluthatione (protects intestine from oxidative stress http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=40455)

Arginine (promotes healing of ulcers http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9246059)

you can not get all those easily from plants, even if you start looking at plants that are high protein, there are specific amino-acids that aren't available to vegetarians, and the bioavailability of the plant diet is extremely low which means you would need to eat a truck full of them to even get them digested

for all the _natural _ claims vegetarians make about their diet, even though there is nothing natural about being a herbivore when we are an omnivore, it is extremely unhealthy, the vegan diets in the study below are almost 10% higher in carbs than people who eat meat, which is higher in protein



study of 38000 people

vegetarian diets are high in carbs (fructose from all the fruit I can only guess) low in protein, and low in calorie intake in general, if you wanted to increase calorie intake to get at the same level of meat eaters your amount of carb intake would have to increase

some people think they can eat low carbs and do vegetarian, no, you have 3 things to get your calories from, either you get them from carbs, from fat or from protein, a low carb vegetarian diet that has enough calories for someone with crohn is impossible, since you can never get the protein and nutrients from plants or fruit without the carbs

you can supplement with protein powders, but you're going to be low on enzymes to digest them if you get massive amounts of protein from powders, and most protein powder found in shops is either casein cause it's cheap as hell (all those medical brands use casein, just cause they're cheap), or from whey, which is very expensive if you want no lactose and no milk fat (most companies are not truthful about it), you can get it from albumin, but you need a lot of enzymes to digest it, much easier would be meat and powder

(all those amino-acid supplements are all from casein or leftover whey, again for price reason, casein is super cheap for companies, it's exactly the same as buying cheap protein powder, and you usually get free disgusting lactose on top of it, it usually has 1 or 2% carbs, that's the lactose)

and if you're going to supplement protein, why the hell not just eat some meat so you actually learn how to break it down


----------



## crohnsguy057

wow this thread

The whole debate about it is silly. 

1) There's evidence for both sides, therefore the science is inconclusive. To say "I have proof that x" just further shows that you don't know what you're talking about.

2) It's not really anyone's business (Kiny)... If someone wants to be a vegetarian, they can go right ahead. It's none of your business. Over 1/3 of US citizens are obese, to which effect they are a) detrimental to the medical system, and b) huge wasters of precious food. So why are you all angry about vegetarians?

////////////////

I think whether or not you can be a vegetarian depends solely on you. Our diets are so different, it's not really possible for me to say YES YOU CAN, and for another to say you can't.


----------



## KWalker

Crohnsguy057, I see that you're a little new still but after awhile you'll realize that kiny just has to be right about everything and won't stop until everyone else gives up. 

Why would you care if somebody wants to go vegetarian kiny? If it makes their crohns worse than they know but somebody elses choice to go vegetarian sure as hell won't make your crohns worse. It doesn't affect you, let them do what they want.  

I could never go vegan just because I love meat (sorry) but I do disagree with how some animals get treated and I do know lots of vegans as well that seem to be doing quite well with it.


----------



## Zarr

kiny said:


> No problem with vegans, but I don't understand crohn vegans.
> 
> here are amino acids and how they work to mitigate crohn:
> 
> Glutamine (accelerates healing of the small intestine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2378557)
> 
> Isoleucine (enhances human beta defensin http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=40557)
> 
> Gluthatione (protects intestine from oxidative stress http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=40455)
> 
> Arginine (promotes healing of ulcers http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9246059)
> 
> you can not get all those easily from plants, even if you start looking at plants that are high protein, there are specific amino-acids that aren't available to vegetarians, and the bioavailability of the plant diet is extremely low which means you would need to eat a truck full of them to even get them digested
> 
> for all the _natural _ claims vegetarians make about their diet, even though there is nothing natural about being a herbivore when we are an omnivore, it is extremely unhealthy, the vegan diets in the study below are almost 10% higher in carbs than people who eat meat, which is higher in protein
> 
> 
> 
> study of 38000 people
> 
> vegetarian diets are high in carbs (fructose from all the fruit I can only guess) low in protein, and low in calorie intake in general, if you wanted to increase calorie intake to get at the same level of meat eaters your amount of carb intake would have to increase
> 
> some people think they can eat low carbs and do vegetarian, no, you have 3 things to get your calories from, either you get them from carbs, from fat or from protein, a low carb vegetarian diet that has enough calories for someone with crohn is impossible, since you can never get the protein and nutrients from plants or fruit without the carbs
> 
> you can supplement with protein powders, but you're going to be low on enzymes to digest them if you get massive amounts of protein from powders, and most protein powder found in shops is either casein cause it's cheap as hell (all those medical brands use casein, just cause they're cheap), or from whey, which is very expensive if you want no lactose and no milk fat (most companies are not truthful about it), you can get it from albumin, but you need a lot of enzymes to digest it, much easier would be meat and powder
> 
> (all those amino-acid supplements are all from casein or leftover whey, again for price reason, casein is super cheap for companies, it's exactly the same as buying cheap protein powder, and you usually get free disgusting lactose on top of it, it usually has 1 or 2% carbs, that's the lactose)
> 
> and if you're going to supplement protein, why the hell not just eat some meat so you actually learn how to break it down




As far as nutrition studies are concerned, the China study was done on a much larger scale than the one you mentioned.

How much protein do you think we need per day?  An alkaline diet is vital to healing. Please let me know if you wish to see supporting studies. Getting most of your calories from meat, how do you plan on balancing acid and base intake in your diet?


----------



## hugh

the china study (the study, not the book) is a huge observational study and proves NOTHING, 
It shows correlations and could be useful for defining future tests but it PROVES nothing and the book of the same name has been fairly conclusively shown to be hogwash and horseshit.

My favorite rebuttals come from RAWFOODSOS

http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/

Having said that, i can see that many people do well on vegan/veg and many do well on Paleo(ish) diets.

There are similarities in the diets that work, they both aim for REAL food and avoid processed foods.


----------



## Zarr

For every rebuttal of the China study, there are a hundred approvals. Like you said, many people have done well on a vegan/veg diet or on a Paleo diet, similarly, thousands have done very well following what the China study recommends, a vegan diet. You'll find a list of approvals and one of rebuttals on Amazon.com, pick one....

http://www.amazon.com/The-China-Stu...ations/dp/1932100385/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Don't we all know how well cancer, osteoporis, cardiovascular dieases,etc...and animal products are related? The Paleo diet is not too different from the SCD and the GAPS diet. The authors of the SCD and the GAPS diet have clearly stated in their books that the diets are meant to be short-term. Since the paleo diet isn't THAT different, what happens in the long-term? How much research has gone into these diets? * What about the acid and base balance? *

I'm not a vegan, I'm a vegetarian (trying to be a vegan!) and I'm not supporting any diet here. Just trying to figure out why some people dislike vegetarianism/veganism so much.


----------



## hugh

when i talk about rebuttals i'm not talking about some dipshit that presses the 'like' button,
i'm talking people who looked at the data and asked if the evidence said what was claimed by the author.

_"Like Neo in the movie the Matrix, you have a choice, take the blue pill and believe what you want to believe, take the red pill and you will be exposed to the reality of the world we live in. The China Study is the red pill."_

give me a break




Zarr said:


> Don't we all know how well cancer, osteoporis, cardiovascular dieases,etc...and animal products are related?


no, we don't, *we have been told it many times but that doesn't make it true*, for example.....

*Systematic review and meta-analysis of clinical trials of the effects of low carbohydrate diets on cardiovascular risk factors*
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2012.01021.x/abstract
and to summarise the summary
_"LCD (low carb diet) was shown to have favourable effects on body weight and major cardiovascular risk factors"_

*Phosphate decreases urine calcium and increases calcium balance: a meta-analysis of the osteoporosis acid-ash diet hypothesis.*
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19754972
_"Dietary advice that dairy products, meats, and grains are detrimental to bone health due to "acidic" phosphate content needs reassessment. There is no evidence that higher phosphate intakes are detrimental to bone health."_

*Is there a role for carbohydrate restriction in the treatment and prevention of cancer?*
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-8-75.pdf
_"Over the last years, evidence has accumulated suggesting that by systematically reducing the amount of dietary carbohydrates (CHOs) one could suppress, or at least delay, the emergence of cancer, and that proliferation of already existing tumor cells could be slowed down"_

and lastly, if you want to know how they come up with the epidemiological studies and headlines
*Meat and Colon Cancer with Robb Wolf*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy0NHVZ3OF4

If anyone is really interested in how they come up with headlines like this....

"Atkins Diet: Low-Carb Diet Linked To Heart Disease And Stroke Risk"
derived from studies likes this 
"Low carbohydrate-high protein diet and incidence of cardiovascular diseases in Swedish women: prospective cohort study"
http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e4026

then read this
"Are Low-Carb Diets Killing Sweden?"
http://rawfoodsos.com/2012/07/01/bad-science-strikes-again/

it's long,but it's good


----------



## Zarr

hugh said:


> when i talk about rebuttals i'm not talking about some dipshit that presses the 'like' button,
> i'm talking people who looked at the data and asked if the evidence said what was claimed by the author.
> 
> _"Like Neo in the movie the Matrix, you have a choice, take the blue pill and believe what you want to believe, take the red pill and you will be exposed to the reality of the world we live in. The China Study is the red pill."_
> 
> give me a break
> 
> 
> 
> no, we don't, *we have been told it many times but that doesn't make it true*, for example.....
> 
> *Systematic review and meta-analysis of clinical trials of the effects of low carbohydrate diets on cardiovascular risk factors*
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2012.01021.x/abstract
> and to summarise the summary
> _"LCD (low carb diet) was shown to have favourable effects on body weight and major cardiovascular risk factors"_
> 
> *Phosphate decreases urine calcium and increases calcium balance: a meta-analysis of the osteoporosis acid-ash diet hypothesis.*
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19754972
> _"Dietary advice that dairy products, meats, and grains are detrimental to bone health due to "acidic" phosphate content needs reassessment. There is no evidence that higher phosphate intakes are detrimental to bone health."_
> 
> *Is there a role for carbohydrate restriction in the treatment and prevention of cancer?*
> http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-8-75.pdf
> _"Over the last years, evidence has accumulated suggesting that by systematically reducing the amount of dietary carbohydrates (CHOs) one could suppress, or at least delay, the emergence of cancer, and that proliferation of already existing tumor cells could be slowed down"_
> 
> and lastly, if you want to know how they come up with the epidemiological studies and headlines
> *Meat and Colon Cancer with Robb Wolf*
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy0NHVZ3OF4
> 
> If anyone is really interested in how they come up with headlines like this....
> 
> "Atkins Diet: Low-Carb Diet Linked To Heart Disease And Stroke Risk"
> derived from studies likes this
> "Low carbohydrate-high protein diet and incidence of cardiovascular diseases in Swedish women: prospective cohort study"
> http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e4026
> 
> then read this
> "Are Low-Carb Diets Killing Sweden?"
> http://rawfoodsos.com/2012/07/01/bad-science-strikes-again/
> 
> it's long,but it's good




Why not complete the statement? The conclusion of the first study is...

"LCD was shown to have favourable effects on body weight and major cardiovascular risk factors; however the effects on long-term health are unknown."

Reading about long-term effects is what I'm interested in. Please have a look at my previous post. When it comes to Crohn's and the SCD or anything similar to that, the intro-diet brings relief to many people but you can't stay on the intro-diet all your life. It is 'temporary' relief.



Is there a role for carbohydrate restriction in the treatment and prevention of cancer?
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.co...-7075-8-75.pdf
"Over the last years, evidence has accumulated suggesting that by systematically reducing the amount of dietary carbohydrates (CHOs) one could suppress, or at least delay, the emergence of cancer, and that proliferation of already existing tumor cells could be slowed down"

Again, short-term and besides that, in vitro. Also, the evidence based on human studies is purely anecdotal evidence (Pg.10). Misuse of anecdoctal evidence is logical fallacy. Moreover, the diet in question is a ketogenic diet. Ketosis, really? A diet meant to control extreme cases of epilepsy and which is otherwise contraindicated.  The internet is full of information on ketosis and it's ill effects.


The following study may be old but it is based on data sourced from a total of 33 countries.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11034231


Robb Wolf, the author of the Paleolithic Diet/a type of ketogenic diet? 


The china study is worth a read! I haven't gone vegan since I read the book but I must acknowledge that it does make some good points!


----------



## hugh

To answer an earlier question
_"Just trying to figure out why some people dislike vegetarianism/veganism so much."_
Because of the few smug misinformed  vegan/vegetarians that repeat all the lies and misinformation about meat eaters.

I don't want to come across as anti vegetarian, heck - i was one for 10 years.
I'm sure it is possible to be a vegetarian (to go back to the thread title), but it doesn't automatically confer health. A vegetarian who avoids inflammatory foods will probably do better,

I just feel the need to respond to Zarr and then i'll shut up

"Meat eater" covers a huge range of people from "raw-vegans who eat meat" to low-fat to high-fat to vegiphobics, some eat CAFO, some organic, and more besides.
It's like saying that someone who eats a diet of processed vegetarian mush from the supermarket is the same as an organic raw food vegan

" however the effects on long-term health are unknown."
this adds nothing to either sides argument, it is merely there to cover the authors ass if anything should turn up in the future.
There is an enormous amount of information about hunter-gatherer societies and what happens to their health after the introduction of neolithic foods.

_"When it comes to Crohn's and the SCD or anything similar to that, the intro-diet brings relief to many people but you can't stay on the intro-diet all your life"
_
What part of 'intro-diet' don't you understand?
You move from 'intro' to the regular diet that can be sustained indefinitely.

I like the way you will use a purely epidemiological study that you agree with as evidence and misrepresent a review of data by selecting words at random.

_ "Ketosis, really? A diet meant to control extreme cases of epilepsy and which is otherwise contraindicated. "_.
A healthy person moves into partial ketosis every night, it is perfectly normal and perfectly healthy.
Ketogenic diets have proven effective for all sorts of conditions, but need to be carefully planned because if not understood and implemented, can lead to malnutrition (like some vegetarian/vegan diets)
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/02/ketogenic-diets-i-ways-to-make-a-diet-ketogenic/
Our bodies are evolved to be that way, we burn fat for energy and the small amount of glucose needed for brain function is drawn from protien. This has been going on for millions of years.
We can live indefinitely without carbohydrates but not without fat.

_"The internet is full of information on ketosis and it's ill effects."_
the internet is full of porn too, it doesn't prove anything

*Long-term effects of a ketogenic diet in obese patients*
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
CONCLUSIONS:
The present study shows the beneficial effects of a long-term ketogenic diet. It significantly reduced the body weight and body mass index of the patients. Furthermore, it decreased the level of triglycerides, LDL cholesterol and blood glucose, and increased the level of HDL cholesterol. Administering a ketogenic diet for a relatively longer period of time did not produce any significant side effects in the patients. Therefore, the present study confirms that it is safe to use a ketogenic diet for a longer period of time than previously demonstrated.

_"The china study is worth a read! I haven't gone vegan since I read the book but I must acknowledge that it does make some good points!"_

The book is toilet paper, drawing almost nothing except cherry-picked invalid correlations from the original "Diet, Life-style and Mortality in China' epidemiological study, and using the title 'China Study' to deceive you into thinking that it is based upon said study.
When the data in the original study is analysed it shows far greater correlations between wheat and cancer than meat.
"W_hy does Campbell indict animal foods in cardiovascular disease (correlation of +1 for animal protein and -11 for fish protein), yet fail to mention that wheat flour has a correlation of +67 with heart attacks and coronary heart disease, and plant protein correlates at +25 with these conditions?_" - denise minger, rawfoodsos

Much of cambell's book is base on the effect of an isolated milk protein in rats, and drew the conclusion that all animal proteins would have the same effect (even though his own experiments showed fish protein to have a protective effect).

"_And Campbell and his team conclude:

"[A] 20% menhaden oil diet, rich in omega 3 fatty acids, produced a significant decrease in the development of both the size and number of preneoplastic lesions when compared to a 20% corn oil diet rich in omega 6 fatty acids. This study provides evidence that fish oils, rich in omega 3 fatty acids, may have potential as inhibitory agents in cancer development."

Remember how Campbell said, summarizing this research, that “nutrients from animal-based foods increased tumor development while nutrients from plant-based foods decreased tumor development”? Last I checked, fish oil ain’t no plant food."_
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

*so, to sum up my rant, go veg if you want, but avoid wheat and sugar, vegetable oil and processed food*


----------



## Zarr

hugh said:


> To answer an earlier question
> _"Just trying to figure out why some people dislike vegetarianism/veganism so much."_
> Because of the few smug misinformed  vegan/vegetarians that repeat all the lies and misinformation about meat eaters.
> 
> I don't want to come across as anti vegetarian, heck - i was one for 10 years.
> I'm sure it is possible to be a vegetarian (to go back to the thread title), but it doesn't automatically confer health. A vegetarian who avoids inflammatory foods will probably do better,
> 
> I just feel the need to respond to Zarr and then i'll shut up
> 
> "Meat eater" covers a huge range of people from "raw-vegans who eat meat" to low-fat to high-fat to vegiphobics, some eat CAFO, some organic, and more besides.
> It's like saying that someone who eats a diet of processed vegetarian mush from the supermarket is the same as an organic raw food vegan
> 
> " however the effects on long-term health are unknown."
> this adds nothing to either sides argument, it is merely there to cover the authors ass if anything should turn up in the future.
> There is an enormous amount of information about hunter-gatherer societies and what happens to their health after the introduction of neolithic foods.
> 
> _"When it comes to Crohn's and the SCD or anything similar to that, the intro-diet brings relief to many people but you can't stay on the intro-diet all your life"
> _
> What part of 'intro-diet' don't you understand?
> You move from 'intro' to the regular diet that can be sustained indefinitely.
> 
> I like the way you will use a purely epidemiological study that you agree with as evidence and misrepresent a review of data by selecting words at random.
> 
> _ "Ketosis, really? A diet meant to control extreme cases of epilepsy and which is otherwise contraindicated. "_.
> A healthy person moves into partial ketosis every night, it is perfectly normal and perfectly healthy.
> Ketogenic diets have proven effective for all sorts of conditions, but need to be carefully planned because if not understood and implemented, can lead to malnutrition (like some vegetarian/vegan diets)
> http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/02/ketogenic-diets-i-ways-to-make-a-diet-ketogenic/
> Our bodies are evolved to be that way, we burn fat for energy and the small amount of glucose needed for brain function is drawn from protien. This has been going on for millions of years.
> We can live indefinitely without carbohydrates but not without fat.
> 
> _"The internet is full of information on ketosis and it's ill effects."_
> the internet is full of porn too, it doesn't prove anything
> 
> *Long-term effects of a ketogenic diet in obese patients*
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
> CONCLUSIONS:
> The present study shows the beneficial effects of a long-term ketogenic diet. It significantly reduced the body weight and body mass index of the patients. Furthermore, it decreased the level of triglycerides, LDL cholesterol and blood glucose, and increased the level of HDL cholesterol. Administering a ketogenic diet for a relatively longer period of time did not produce any significant side effects in the patients. Therefore, the present study confirms that it is safe to use a ketogenic diet for a longer period of time than previously demonstrated.
> 
> _"The china study is worth a read! I haven't gone vegan since I read the book but I must acknowledge that it does make some good points!"_
> 
> The book is toilet paper, drawing almost nothing except cherry-picked invalid correlations from the original "Diet, Life-style and Mortality in China' epidemiological study, and using the title 'China Study' to deceive you into thinking that it is based upon said study.
> When the data in the original study is analysed it shows far greater correlations between wheat and cancer than meat.
> "W_hy does Campbell indict animal foods in cardiovascular disease (correlation of +1 for animal protein and -11 for fish protein), yet fail to mention that wheat flour has a correlation of +67 with heart attacks and coronary heart disease, and plant protein correlates at +25 with these conditions?_" - denise minger, rawfoodsos
> 
> Much of cambell's book is base on the effect of an isolated milk protein in rats, and drew the conclusion that all animal proteins would have the same effect (even though his own experiments showed fish protein to have a protective effect).
> 
> "_And Campbell and his team conclude:
> 
> "[A] 20% menhaden oil diet, rich in omega 3 fatty acids, produced a significant decrease in the development of both the size and number of preneoplastic lesions when compared to a 20% corn oil diet rich in omega 6 fatty acids. This study provides evidence that fish oils, rich in omega 3 fatty acids, may have potential as inhibitory agents in cancer development."
> 
> Remember how Campbell said, summarizing this research, that “nutrients from animal-based foods increased tumor development while nutrients from plant-based foods decreased tumor development”? Last I checked, fish oil ain’t no plant food."_
> http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
> 
> *so, to sum up my rant, go veg if you want, but avoid wheat and sugar, vegetable oil and processed food*



First of all, I'm not using the China study to say that vegetarian/vegan diets are healthy. Secondly, I never said that being vegetarian/vegan means eating processed vegetarian mush from the supermarket. What I'm refering to
is a wholesome ayurvedic diet with a limited amount of certain grains or no grains at all. It doesn't have to be wheat specifically. Ayurveda is an ancient science and people in India led very healthy lives eating only vegetarian food until modernization happened. Today, more than 50% of the population is still vegetarian and we have a lot of cancer, cardio vascular diseases and everything else there is because people love their processed foods! There is also a Mcdonald's in almost every large town and you find a bunch of vegetarian burgers there! So anyway, I repeat, I'm referring to ayurvedic food. Not processed vegetarian food.


If you're doing the SCD and you have issues with FODMAPs (which a number of people with IBD do), are you going to eat just meat all the time? The intro-diet consists of bone-broth, meat, SCD yogurt and a couple of other things. These foods will give you temporary relief (and constipation?) What do you do with the FODMAPs issue later? I understand that later, when your gut starts healing, you can tolerate some FODMAPs, but how much later? 


You said we have evolved to be on ketogenic diets. Tell me, is that why we still produce salivary amylase everytime we chew food? You don't have to be a scientist to understand under what conditions ketogenic diets are used. 
I think it is ridiculous for people sitting in the comfort of their well-heated apartments to say they eat like the eskimos or like the tribals in Papua New Guinea! Are you an eskimo living in the brutal conditions of the arctic region? 
Are you a tribal living in the forests of Papua New Guinea where food can be a matter of life and death? Tribals will eat anything they can get their hands on and they have a good reason for that. Tribals living in forests will not wait until they're able to hunt an animal down to remain in ketosis. They will eat what is easiest to get and that is plant based food.
They will not open the refrigerator, get some meat out and grill it.


Please read the following articles. One just needs common sense to tell if it makes sense or not. Talking about anatomy, someone rightly said "You don't need a medical journal or research data to tell that humans have 2 hands. You look at yourself and you see you have 2 hands!"

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/94656/The-Comparative-Anatomy-of-Eating 


The study you mentioned is *relatively *long-term, 6 months. Are you willing to experiment this diet on yourself based on this 6 month study alone?


----------



## hugh

Any diet that stresses real food over the SAD (standard american diet) is going to lead to an improvement in health, be it vegetarian or not.

I'm not on 'ketogenic diet' , i'm on a paleolithic diet, which does not exclude carbohydrates, but limits them through the exclusion of neolithic foods (grains).

My only point is that while it is possible to have a healthy vegetarian diet, there is usually a need for supplements, whereas a balanced paleolithic diet needs no supplementation. 

There are plenty of low FODMAPS fruit and veg so i don't understand your issue there.

Vegetarians recommend not eating meat but Meat-eaters are OK with eating vegetables, so this obsession with ketogenic diets is a bit disturbing. 

I have no concerns at all about the long term effects of my diet, i have mild concerns about the long term effect of a vegetarian diet and i see no need for anyone to go on a long term ketogenic diet, although it is possible.

I am very familiar with all the vegetarian arguments, and they can be convincing untill you look a bit deeper, but we are always convinced by what we want to believe (you and me). 
I like the theory of evolutionary biology as put forward by Cordain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dw1MuD9EP4


----------



## crohnsguy057

I'd like to add some more input here.

While I think it's great that you're all contributing to answers: you're doing it like idiots.



hugh said:


> I am very familiar with all the vegetarian arguments, and they can be convincing untill you look a bit deeper, but we are always convinced by what we want to believe (you and me).


... This isn't philosophy, we do not pose arguments. We give evidence, and make suggestions related to the evidence. If you're going to use scientific data, please do not bastardize said data by using it to substantiate your opinion. There are these things called statistics, and we use them to draw conclusions about things. You can learn about them in high school. 

When you say 



> This study says that x, so it supports my opinion


you're really just showing that you have no idea how statistics and science work. Try something more like



> This study shows that x, so we can draw conclusion y, which may or may not be contrary to my unscientific opinion z


... 

If you can't actually use scientific sources correctly, please refrain from using them.


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## KWalker

Anyone can google and it just shows when you pull "facts" from the first page of google that you really don't know anything. I think RFarmer was looking for first hand knowledge and experience as to whether or not it can be done.   I believe Dustykat's daughter is on a strict vegan diet and I also believe (from what I've heard) she's doing quite well on it.


----------



## hugh

_"While I think it's great that you're all contributing to answers: you're doing it like idiots."_
ouch, told off for expressing opinions on an online forum,

_"This isn't philosophy, we do not pose arguments. We give evidence, and make suggestions related to the evidence."_
Right, showing studies (give evidence) that support an hypothesis (make suggestions) is philosophy..
whatever

_"There are these things called statistics, and we use them to draw conclusions about things."_
Like Ancel Keys in "Atherosclerosis: a problem in newer public health" study that started off the unscientific anti-fat paranoia?
Turns out he had 22 countries to pick from but these 6 gave him the results that he wanted.
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.co.nz/2009/02/cholesterol-presentation-between.html
(By the way, i often use 3 or 4 pages of google results to find the ones i want)
Hmmmmmm, i'm starting to understand science of which you speak,

"_This study shows that x, so we can draw conclusion y, which may or may not be contrary to my unscientific opinion z_"
If we have two studies that attempt to draw opposing conclusions (not our conclusions, those of the authors) may we have your permission to discuss them?

"_you're really just showing that you have no idea how statistics and science work_"
i understand how science works, and it's quite different from how science *should* work, but once you leave high school you might learn about the real world


----------



## crohnsguy057

hugh said:


> _"While I think it's great that you're all contributing to answers: you're doing it like idiots."_
> ouch, told off for expressing opinions on an online forum,
> 
> _"This isn't philosophy, we do not pose arguments. We give evidence, and make suggestions related to the evidence."_
> Right, showing studies (give evidence) that support an hypothesis (make suggestions) is philosophy..
> whatever
> 
> _"There are these things called statistics, and we use them to draw conclusions about things."_
> Like Ancel Keys in "Atherosclerosis: a problem in newer public health" study that started off the unscientific anti-fat paranoia?
> Turns out he had 22 countries to pick from but these 6 gave him the results that he wanted.
> http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.co.nz/2009/02/cholesterol-presentation-between.html
> (By the way, i often use 3 or 4 pages of google results to find the ones i want)
> Hmmmmmm, i'm starting to understand science of which you speak,
> 
> "_This study shows that x, so we can draw conclusion y, which may or may not be contrary to my unscientific opinion z_"
> If we have two studies that attempt to draw opposing conclusions (not our conclusions, those of the authors) may we have your permission to discuss them?
> 
> "_you're really just showing that you have no idea how statistics and science work_"
> i understand how science works, and it's quite different from how science *should* work, but once you leave high school you might learn about the real world


Those studies don't support your hypothesis. You can't take a study of x amount of people, and just say it supports your hypothesis. There's math you have to take into consideration: the 5 old ladies I know who are missing teeth do not support the argument that OLD PEOPLE HAVE NO TEETH. 

How is the Ancel Keys thing even relevant? That's bad statistics. That's exactly what you're (not actually sure if it's YOU, because I didn't write down names) doing.

No, not really. Unless you take the time to understand how the author did the study, and the mathematics involved. Otherwise, your opinion is subject to the limits of your understanding of the study, and is not really worth much. 

I'm not sure you understand science at all, or scientific arguments. Here's a couple tips for you:

1) A statistic or study cannot be used to support a hypothesis unless the actually process of deriving a statistical hypothesis is done. A study ITSELF cannot be used to support your argument: it is the content within. If you don't understand the content within, you can't use the study.

2) YOU CANNOT MAKE A HYPOTHESIS BASED ON SOMEONE ELSE'S STUDY. This is because other people study with variables in mind that involve their hypothesis. Not yours. This is also because people who publish hypothesis do statistics, to find out if their study was even relevant. Statistics only apply to the hypothesis for which the study was done. So either a) you show an author's hypothesis, and keep your opinion out of it, or b) you do your own study, statistics, and THEN YOU MAY MAKE A HYPOTHESIS.

3) Jesting about my age will not help you win an argument.

4) Jesting about my understanding of the "real world" will not help you win an argument.

5) This is an online forum, not the real world.


----------



## hugh

"_Those studies don't support your hypothesis. You can't take a study of x amount of people, and just say it supports your hypothesis. There's math you have to take into consideration: the 5 old ladies I know who are missing teeth do not support the argument that OLD PEOPLE HAVE NO TEETH. _ "
What studies? Whose hypothesis? What hypothesis? Who are you ranting to? I never mentioned teeth! :rof:,
Wrong by the way, it does support the hypothesis that old ladies loose teeth, it sure doesn't prove it though (it certainly does not support the argument that old ladies have NO teeth, so i guess you are right in detail but wrong in the implied argument,  To say that a small collection of data supporting a hypothesis (not a conclusion, mind, just a hypothesis) doesn't support a hypothesis is ludicrous. It might be statistically insignificant and it doesn't support a conclusion but that's another story. Whereas a small collection of old ladies who still had all there teeth wouldn't support said hypothesis ( nor would it disprove it, but it would disprove the hypothesis that ALL old ladies loose some of their teeth by a certain age - but that's not our hypothesis). A small data set (even just one) can instantly disprove a hypothesis (That *all* statisticians are honest - for example), and a small data set (even just one) can prove a hypothesis (If i read a lot of posts will i think *some* internet posters are idiots - for example , sorry, it's a general hypothesis rather than a testable hypothesis, but you can take it to school and work on it if you want))

"_How is the Ancel Keys thing even relevant? That's bad statistics._"
It was one of the most influential studies in the last 50 years, and totally bogus, It's taken from the real world, and is an example of misrepresentation of data claiming to be science.

_"not actually sure if it's YOU"_
I'm not sure either, i just didn't like the way you jumped in calling everybody an idiot

_"Here's a couple tips for you"_
Thank you  for copying a bit more out of your schoolbooks, it sure adds a lot to the conversation. 
You might want to spend a bit longer checking, cut and pastes can get a bit out of hand... _"unless the actually process of deriving"_
 "A study ITSELF cannot be used to support your argument: it is the content within."....... so the content of the study is not the study?
_"YOU CANNOT MAKE A HYPOTHESIS BASED ON SOMEONE ELSE'S STUDY"_ - of course you can, but you need another study to validate the hypothesis, Who was doing that anyway?
"Statistics only apply to the hypothesis for which the study was done." - bullshit, statistics are collections of data, the quality of which will always be dependent on the method of collection, but they can always be used to formulate new areas of investigation (called a hypothesis).
"Jesting about my age will not help you win an argument." - gee, i must be an idiot then. I'm not arguing, i'm just having fun.
"This is an online forum, not the real world." - i wondered why everything was so pixelated


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## DustyKat

KWalker said:


> Anyone can google and it just shows when you pull "facts" from the first page of google that you really don't know anything. I think RFarmer was looking for first hand knowledge and experience as to whether or not it can be done.   I believe Dustykat's daughter is on a strict vegan diet and I also believe (from what I've heard) she's doing quite well on it.


Yes KW, Sarah is raw vegan and is doing well.  

I have no studies to pull up, just one person's experience with Crohn's and I believe that it was the OP was asking. 

It must be stated from the outset that Sarah was in remission when she commenced this diet and had been for 5 years. Why did she change? I guess the answer to that has as much do with her age and growth (psychological) as it does with her body and it's response to her disease. She was 14 when diagnosed and it was some time before she was reconciled to the fact that she had a chronic incurable disease. 

Her journey from a *normal* diet to pescetarian to vegetarian to vegan and finally raw vegan is a mixture of choice, ethics and necessity and maybe even the need for some level of control. Any decisions made have been done with research, discussion and question. She says she has abundant energy and feels well but how do you quantify such states? Perhaps what led her on this path was her body's response to red meat following her surgery, when it was consumed it never sat well with her so over time she reduced her consumption until it was zero. I do note that my son is following the same trend following his surgery, red meat is something that does not sit well with him either. 

How she got to this point is only speculation on my part. She is raw vegan and she remains well. I have yet to find any hard and fast rule with this disease when it comes to diagnosis, treatment or response and diet is no different. 

Dusty.


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## KWalker

"Thank you for copying a bit more out of your schoolbooks, it sure adds a lot to the conversation."

Why is it that everytime comes up with info somebody doesn't like, they say to "pull more stuff out of their textbook"?   So wait, you're saying that I'm going to school and paying a shit ton of money not only on tuition, but also buying multiple overpriced textbooks to learn from scientific research and studied facts when I could just listen to the guys on the street?  Wow, I could save a lot of money! 

I know this thread doesn't particularly say that I pulled stuff from a textbook but I had the same thing when a few angry people in the addiction thread didnlt like that I could fill them in with legitimate info that took time to study and then published instead of their "homie on the street told me this when I bought heroin off of him". 

If he got his info from a textbook, its there for a reason! Those aren't opinions, they're facts!


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## crohnsguy057

KWalker said:


> "Thank you for copying a bit more out of your schoolbooks, it sure adds a lot to the conversation."
> 
> Why is it that everytime comes up with info somebody doesn't like, they say to "pull more stuff out of their textbook"?   So wait, you're saying that I'm going to school and paying a shit ton of money not only on tuition, but also buying multiple overpriced textbooks to learn from scientific research and studied facts when I could just listen to the guys on the street?  Wow, I could save a lot of money!
> 
> I know this thread doesn't particularly say that I pulled stuff from a textbook but I had the same thing when a few angry people in the addiction thread didnlt like that I could fill them in with legitimate info that took time to study and then published instead of their "homie on the street told me this when I bought heroin off of him".
> 
> If he got his info from a textbook, its there for a reason! Those aren't opinions, they're facts!


I didn't bother reading it: if he can't bother to a) do proper statistics, b) format his shit, c) condense his rant so I don't spend all day reading it, and d stop trying to insult me, I don't really see any point in listening to him. I'll just have to make it my duty to lurk around the forum, calling out his lack of scientific understanding anytime he posts.


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## DustyKat

I think it is about time this thread returned to its original intention. We are here to support, offer advice and experience from own perspectives and provide sourced information. If anyone wishes to continue to post please make it constructive and desist from continuing the slanging match. 

Dusty.


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## briguy

I honestly never felt better than during the 9 months in college when I was vegan.  But I don't think it was the meat and animal products that were causing my symptoms.  I think it was that being vegan forced me to start cooking for myself, rather than grabbing whatever from the cafeteria and having no idea what I was eating.

Once I started cooking my own food I started noticing that foods I didn't prepare myself were more likely to make me feel bad, and I eventually figured out that it was hydrogenated cooking oils like crisco and pam in all of the restaurant/cafeteria foods that were killing me.

Then I started figuring out that stuff was in pretty much all the cereals, bread, crackers and stuff that I had been eating my whole life, but when I became vegan I started buying all the organic versions of those foods from Wild Oats and none of those brands have hydrogenated oils.


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## Gianni

> Vegetarian diets miss many essential amino-acids, you can not get them anywhere as complete as from your meat, one protein is not another protein, meat provides complete proteins, a vegetarian diet does not.


Kiny, a vegetarian/vegan diet absolutely includes complete proteins. A Flax seed for example (which i have every day) is a complete protein. Also just because one item isn't a complete protein doesn't mean it can't be complimented into a complete protein. For example rice and beans have complementary amino acids , separate they are incomplete proteins, but together they are complete and your body will combine them to form the complete protein. (there are soooo many different combination examples like this).

I am vegan and I have much more energy than I did before. Call it whatever, but I make sure I eat extremely well and I make sure I intake plenty of calories. A common misconception is that a vegetarian/vegan diet cannot account for enough calories. Of course it can with nuts, grains, healthy oils like coconut and olive oil. An average avocado has 300 calories itself. 

With a high simple carb vegan diet, vegans will usually feel a burst of energy and then bottom out as they day goes on. (new vegans) but these are also the unhealthy vegans as they aren't eating plants but merely avoiding meat. 

Complex carbs are an important part of someone's diet and complex carbs are digested slowly which keeps your body's glycemic index lower. This won't cause a blood sugar spike like simple carbs but will keep a steady source of energy through a long period of time. Do a google search on examples of complex carbs, they are all plants. No meats will give you these complex carbs. 

As for Vitamin D in a vegan diet. The sun is vegan and you can get plenty from the sun. The Liver will provide enough cholesterol for proper synthesis. So i don't see your point here. 

B12, in my opinion, is not a deficiency of non meat eaters but a deficiency of society. B12 is produced by bacteria that lives in natural soils. This bacteria literally was everywhere in primitive times. In the soil we walked in and the water we drank and more importantly ON the vegetables we ate from. Fast forward to today, the soils are widely sterilized through modern agriculture. We use synthetic fertilizers and the organisms that live in natural soil leave or die out as their ecosystem changes. The assumption that B12 just naturally occurs in our livestock is non sense. If it just occurred in animals then it would occur in us. I believe that our commercial system of livestock has caused b12 to become extinct in our cows and chickens because they eat worse than we do and our constantly kept on antibiotics (no way the bacteria could thrive in their gut). Cows are vegans yet we just assume that they have b12 in them. B12 is a deficiency of modernization.

I recognize that we are omnivores and I know that would be the healthiest diet for us. But many people have a skewed opinion of what an omnivore is. Too many people are eating too much meat and not enough vegetables. 

I am a vegan because the meat today is much different than the meat we have evolved on. An average sized cow steak has about 30-40 grams of fat in it. Animals were wild back then, they ran around running from us and other predators and as a result they had very lean meat. The cows today now just sit in a stall their whole lives eating awful deficient food and accumulating fat. And we expect them to have all the beneficial things meat is supposed to have? Healthy animals = healthy meats... sick animals= ... you can guess it. 

To put in comparison 3oz of elk meat today (wild) has about 1.5grams of fat.
A 3oz steak has about 12.7g of fat. 

Add in all the hormones and antibiotics the commercial livestock receives it became a pretty clear decision for me. 


I know I won't be vegan forever because i do feel like HEALTHY meat is important. Wild caught fish is about the only healthy meat readily available and I may sometime in the next few years go to a pescetarian diet. 

Anyways, rf farmer, I do think a vegetarian diet is very do-able and I think if you took it seriously it would be greatly beneficial. Many people will decide to become vegetarian and then during the first few months not know what to eat and just eat potato chips and soda and then give up because it was too hard. The only thing I would suggest is getting vitamin levels tested so you can make sure you're diet is sufficing your needs. 

Gianni


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## anialmap

Hello Everyone! Greetings from Hungary! 
Can someone help me out please?  I really want to do Dr. Fuhrman's diet but I don't tolerate beans, lentils and coconut flour, things I was trying to replace meat and grains with. On Paleo I felt strange as I wasn't eating enough carbs and I had serious issues with an almost no carb diet. Candida really flared up, Crohn's was ok. I am just a bit tired of meat but each time I try even pre-soaked lentils the fissures I have flare up. I cannot seem to tolerate fruits that much either so the only thing I got for complex carbs is pumpkin/squash, sweet potatos, and I am ok with carrots, green peas which are better higher carb veggies. I use some chestnuts, and flour from it plus some paleo nut mixes for baking. No dairy, i only tolerate egg yolks.
Can someone please help me with a daily plan maybe, someone who has been vegan for a long time. I was vegan for a while, macrobiotic, but I don't want to eat many grains at this time, I do believe they are not that good for you. Quinoa is ok, millet is ok and so is buckwheat, I try to get them sprouted or make them into breakfast foods (no more grains during the day). 
I will keep eating fish and some chicken 1-2 times a week to get my B12 and iron levels up but I really want to supercharge my body with a nutritarian diet. I do blended green smoothies - no fruit - but it is the meals I have issues with. 
Thanks for all your help!


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## nogutsnoglory

Try juicing the greens maybe blended the fiber is bothering you.


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## David

Eating fish and chicken isn't going to help your B12 levels much.  Especially if you are deficient due to Crohn's disease.


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## nogutsnoglory

Eggs are a good source of b12. David is right though that if you are not absorbing the b12 it may not matter what food you eat. I'd experiment with foods and supplements but if still low you may need a b12 or iron shot.


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## wildbill_52280

with b12, iron(most biologically usable kind), taurine and carnitine only in meat, and choline highest in organ meats, fish and egg yolks. as well as palmitoleic acid an essential fatty acid mainly found in meat, being a vegetarian is too damn hard. the human brain grows large on a meat based diet. it may be the sole the reason why human brains have grown so large, the b12 requirements for myelination of the nervous system is impossible without meat. meals dont even taste right without it.
the ancient greeks may have been the smartest culture next to the chinese, they prized seafood which is loaded with choline, b12, and taurine, all important brain nutrients.

i have been evaluating this vegetarian issue for a couple years now, my mind is finally made up. eat as much meat as possible. oh and milk too. unless you have serious heart disease or risk for a stroke then chill on the saturated fat.


----------



## anialmap

Thank you for your thoughts!  I am studying to be a Dietietian so having some meat in my diet - or rather some fish - is not a question to me, I will always have that. My iron level is always fine (minus during flares) so I doubt B12 is an issue, my digestion otherwise is fine and I am in remission ( on Naltrexone by the way, taking Omega 3, Vit D, Cal-Mag, BioKult probios so I am pretty ok with the rest). But I was on the paleo/gaps diet for a few months and I almost ended up in the emergency room because I was lacking carbs, I felt dizzy, sick to my stomach and just overall sick sick from all that fat or whatever. I called my naturopath/MD - something we have in Hungary, thank God! - and he told me that I must add some complex carbs right away and it helped. Since I have been on the paleo and eating more meat, eggs etc. - I was a vegan for 3 years and vegetarian for a while before that- Candida really got around again due to the rather acidic environment (of paleo) so that is why I believe having more fresh veggies, fruit should be an answer and taking out this 2-3 times a day meat might help me back to balance again. I do want to eat meat for one meal or every other day but it is just the beans and lentils I cannot figure out. And yes tofu...there is so much conflicting information that I cannot tell what to follow...the leaky gut thing and the paleo but then I know in the long run it causes serious issues with the kidneys and uric acid etc. Also, on the paleo I had no energy and I really missed my workouts as otherwise I would be up for it. Doing green smoothies really helps I know as I have so much more energy but the meat/lentil part is the one I am having issues with...how much to have or how to supplement. I am asking all this as I really want to know if anyone has tips for overcoming the fiber issue, or I should be patient and go slow and only add a little of the hard stuff, step by step? 
I also try raw food now and then, I read good and bad things about it for Crohns. Any thoughts on that? The Hallelujah Diet/Dr. Fuhrman's seem to be very nutritious diets but I would definitely keep some meat in like fish. The Gaps is like Paleo to me. 
Anyways, thanks for helping and I will keep reading the forums!


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## David

Iron levels and B12 really aren't correlated.  You may end up with megaloblastic anemia if you're deficient in B12, but that isn't iron related.  Point being, you can't look at iron and make a determination of B12 status based upon it.

I strongly suggest getting your B12 levels tested as that will be more definitive.  If you are deficient, dietary changes likely won't provide you sufficient B12 and supplementation will be necessary.  Other common deficiencies in people with Crohn's are vitamin D, magnesium, and zinc to name a few.


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## anialmap

Thanks David, I will ask my gastroenterologist about that, but usually they don't check B12 here. Yes, magnesium I am taking with the Cal-Mag-Zn supplement as from paleo I started itching and even though my liver function is fine I did my research and there might be something with oxalic acid intake and just overall magnesium deficiency gone really low on the paleo diet. Thanks again!


----------



## David

It the itching on your arms/hands/legs/feet or all over?


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## anialmap

Unfortunately, all over, cannot tell. I need to watch oxalic acid as I noticed it gets worse with foods containing it, which also means I got Magnesium deficiency. All my liver enzymes etc. are fine, urine tests show no oxalic acid issues or anything else plus the ultrasound is fine. I asked for a bile test also, bilification if I have that word right, I have a theory that it is slow and it is also causing issues. It all started when I started eating more meat - leaks out Mg - plus I had a bad allergic reaction to Remicade then a hair die. 
It comes on and off depending on what i eat. This "dis-ease" is causing some really funny things in my body. Did you David or anyone else notice anything like that before? They also said that with Crohns there is something called primer sclerosing cholangitis but all results are fine so we doubt that is the issue. Thanks for caring!


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## Ya noy

@ OP

In response to the original question of whether it is possible to be a vegetarian?  If you suffer from Crohn's, then I believe the correct answer would be, "that depends."  

Food tolerances, allergies, absorption rates and abilities, along with nutritional needs and deficiencies all vary on an individual basis.  

Your very own personal digestive system and health issues is what determines what diet is best for you, and what you should use as the basis for your decision.

Best of luck!


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## Trevor

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=rlmylNCr_U4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DrlmylNCr_U4

Here's a guy (Robb Wolf) with UC who seems to think being vegetarian or vegan is pretty detrimental.


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## bangarang

Very possible tho I wouldn't recommend it to someone who doesn't educate themselves properly. Tons of bad examples of vegetarians/vegans out there so its easy to see how it goes wrong.


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## hugh

It's an over simplification, but a useful one:-
Vegetables are cleansing and meat nurishing


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## Olive.

I am pretty disappointed with these responses so far! I have been a veg for years and have a perfectl healthy body! (minus Crohns) Even when i was in the hospital because of Crohns, I had three different doctors tell me how amazing it was that all of my vitamin levels were sky high- and I had been starved in the hospital for a week at that point. Meat eaters stand by the idea that meat is the only way to get protein, this is false! Here is what I eat for protein- 

- Eggs
- Tofu
- Boiled and sprouted beans (I sprout my own beans because it makes them easier to digest, then I cook them- again, to make them easier to digest. Try mung beans, its very easy!)
- Goat cheese - even if you have lactose issues (i do!) the structure of goat dairy is different enough from cow that you likely will not have an issue
- homemade laban and labneh (middle eastern fermented yogurt and yogurt cheese) I eat this EVERY day. I make mine with unhomogonized milk and a little bit of starter culture from the previous batch (the fermentation process breaks down the lactose)
- Hummus (but only on days when I am feeling up to it. I have never been in remission yet but, like everyone, I have good and bad days. I only eat hummus on good days. Tip: if you make it homemade its really cheap and you can skip the garlic or anything else that might trigger you)
- smooth nut butters (some people cant handle this. I myself dont eat tons of it but thats mostly because i dont eat a ton of bread)
- tahini (sesame paste!) You can literally make a million sauces with this or eat it plain. 

Other sources of protein that are less "complete" are
- avocados
- sprouted brown rice (sprouting before cooking makes it easier to digest but you still get the nutrients of the brown versus eating white rice)

My next experiment is to sprout quinoa and see it that makes it digestible. I have NEVER been able to digest quinoa even before Crohns. But it is high in protein so why not give it a shot!

You can also get vegan protein powder and add that to pretty much anything if you are really concerned. I dont personally feel a need to use them regularly though, and I am an avid weightlifter! (I do take B12 supplements! There are theories that B12 may actually be something that grows on food rather than "in" meat, but regardless, many vegetarians and vegans are deficient. Its a good idea to bolster!)


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## tiffsea

"Vegetarian diets miss many essential amino-acids, you can not get them anywhere as complete as from your meat, one protein is not another protein, meat provides complete proteins, a vegetarian diet does not.

Maybe you don't want to eat cow meat or some other meat, but no meat at all, you will never ever get the amino-acids you need, no matter what supplements you use, meat is the best and most complete way to get your protein."

This is 100% NOT TRUE. Granted, vegetarian sources are often not a complete protein (therefore do not provide all essential amino acids via one product,) through food combining you can absolutely get all essential amino acids. Meat is the easiest way, but at the expense of killing something. For those who choose vegetarianism or veganism from an ethical standpoint, this is an important factor in the lifestyle. Never say never. 

A quick lesson on basic nutrition:


Complete Proteins=
Contain adequate amounts of all essential amino acids
examples: animal proteins, with the exception gelatin (made from animal collagen)

Incomplete Proteins=
Contain inadequate amounts of one or more of the essential amino acids
examples: plant proteins, with the exception soy which has all essential

HOWEVER: There is a concept called Complementary Proteins, which means to combine plant proteins in order to compensate for a limiting amino acid. 

For instance: 

Legumes are deficient in methionine and cysteine, but high in lysine.  
Corn is deficient in lysine and tryptophan, but high in methionine.  
By combining foods (beans and rice, beans and corn tortillas) one can have all the essential amino acids.

This is basic nutrition. There is always a way, it just requires education and mindfulness. Information from Wardlaw's Perspectives in Nutrition, 9th edition. Read up before making bold statements.


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## wildbill_52280

meat has taurine, bioavailabel iron, and b12(adenosylcobalamin, methylcobalamin). 

if you find a source for that stuff liek supps, then yes vegetarian is easy. this is what i do.


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## Nims22

I try to eat as many meals vegan as I can. I feel lighter and better after I eat when I do so. The beginning is tough. I would recommend transitioning slowly (one meal a day vegetarian for a little, then two, then three...). Look into ways to prepare veggies and beans that they will be easiest to digest. Even if that means overcooking a little, peeling, juicing in the beginning as your body adjusts. And if eating whole grains definitely soak them and overcook them so they are more broken down. 

If you bombard your body with juice, beans, veggies and food your body is not accustomed to, especially in a whole raw state, you will end up with gas, bloating, diarrhea and possibly bleeding. So again, take it very slow.

Also some foods just don't work with me.... Like spinach for example. No matter how I prepare it, it makes me violently ill. You'll figure this out as you go along.

And maybe invest in a good vegan/ vegetarian protein powder!


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## Ckoenig

livegreen said:


> Oh no nothing like that, I actually do not like broccoli.
> The reason Dr.F recommends high nutrient food does a lot more to our body then lose weight. For people who need to lose weight there is a different protocol.
> 
> I read his book: Eat to Live, saw him on PBS, then I joined his website. There is a similar member support website like this one, there are Newsletters about IBD, Arthritis, Diabetes etc... There is a small fee for that. If you pay more then you get to Ask the Doctor, so people prescribe for a short time to that, get all there questions answered and then go back to the lower fee membership.
> People have joined from all over the world. He is not going to tell you eat broccoli and I promise you the moon. There are recipes on the website, and there is a whole community helping out with support for creating healthy delicious meals.
> I am doing so much better that I feel like I got my life back, I am pretty much in remission, I take no medications for Crohn's, and have not for one year. I can't say that I was the whole year symptom free, I had one bad flare due to a long water fast that I should not have done, but I consulted with Dr.F and all I took was high doses of fish oils and VSL#3. In the past I was on many meds, I had terrible side effects.:ybatty:
> I ate according to his Crohn's Protocol, just as Hugh wrote. He does go more into depth about how to prepare your food depending on the fact whether you have blood in your stool and or how many times you go to theoo:
> You can always read his book, email him and decide then.
> I wish you all the best.


What is VSL #3?


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## hugh

Ckoenig said:


> What is VSL #3?


Probiotic, 
_"Each packet contains at least 450 billion colony forming units (CFU) of bacteria from 8 beneficial strains. "
_


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## zilla7777

RFarmer said:


> Well, thanks for all your input guys, but it's left me at another question...
> 
> what the hell am I supposed to eat?
> 
> No sugar, ok. No oil, ok. Less meat? Well, I wanted to be veg anyways. No grains? Wut?
> 
> That leaves:
> 
> veggies
> fruit
> 
> Of which most are known to not be good for us.
> 
> 
> I'm just gonna start eating dirt.


I'm sorry, I had to laugh at how much I felt I could relate to this. There is a sticky of potential safe and unsafe foods which might be able to help you out a bit. http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=17707

As for going vegetarian, It is manageable with crohn's, but I found that going Vegan would be a completely different ball game. Personally I am not vegetarian, but I have experimented with vegetarian diets for a number of months. 

My primary sources of protein come from eggs. They are so versatile, and if you are concerned about the fat and cholesterol (which is debated) you can always omit some of the yolks in your cooking. I also seem to tolerate tofu well, but I doubt anyone would really enjoy tofu without some sort of seasoning or sauce. If you can handle nuts, they are one of the best plant based sources of unsaturated fats and protein you can get. If the variety is still not enough, greek yogurt (without thickeners like gelatine) and and a good natural whey isolate protein powder also help get in your protein requirements for the day.

You are right in saying vegetables are very temperamental with a lot of people, and it can be hard to find vegetables you can actually comfortably eat. Generally I found that cooking vegetables thoroughly helps immensely. If I need to chew. If my cooked vegetables are much harder than a banana to chew I generally don't even eat it. Methods like baking for a long period of time, steaming and boiling until they are soft seems to work for me, which comes as a benefit seeing as you can make things like quiche, frittatas; stuffed capsicum amongst other things.

I think people here have said more about carbs and other fat sources than I ever could, so I might just leave my little portion of information here.  

I apologise for being a little late to the party! :lol:


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## hugh

I thought this was worth a read,
Perhaps i'm throwing a cat amongst the pigeons?

Does Meat Rot In Your Colon? No. What Does? Beans, Grains, and Vegetables!
http://www.gnolls.org/1444/


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## hugh

great debate, covers nutrition and ethics, 1hour 44min.
Don't Eat Anything With A Face
http://intelligencesquaredus.org/iq2-tv/item/1022-dont-eat-anything-with-a-face


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## Rocking on

Crohns for 16 years.  Tried all the diets.  Eventually learned nothing works, always a flare one way or the other.  My attitude now is avoidance of the really hard foods to digest, moderation on everything else.  This not only seems to be best for my overall health but keeps my energy levels and overall enjoyment of life at acceptable levels.


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## mccindy

Personally, I've found I can't really follow any particular "diet", I have had to do a lot of work to determine what foods my body will tolerate.  I've gotten a very specific list together, which has a couple of proteins (chicken, seafood and fish) on it, a couple of starches (skinless potatoes and white rice, or gluten-free, corn-free pasta) a few veggies (spinach, lettuce, zucchini/squash, canned peas, green beans) and a few fruits (bananas, blueberries, raspberries). No corn, legumes, corn syrup, limited sugar, no sweeteners ending in "-ol".   I can't decide to go "meatless" or "vegetarian" or "paleo" because there are foods in each diet which I can't eat and foods which i can eat that aren't on "the list".  It's been easier for me to find what works for me, as an individual, and realize that as IBD sufferers, we can't fit ourselves in a dietary niche.


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## bkpop

RFarmer said:


> Well, thanks for all your input guys, but it's left me at another question...
> 
> what the hell am I supposed to eat?
> 
> No sugar, ok. No oil, ok. Less meat? Well, I wanted to be veg anyways. No grains? Wut?
> 
> That leaves:
> 
> veggies
> fruit
> 
> Of which most are known to not be good for us.
> 
> I'm just gonna start eating dirt.


AGH - this is EXACTLY how I am feeling right now. Every turn feels like a "nope, don't eat that either!" moment. So frustrating!


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## zoeythecat

RFarmer said:


> Can I do it? I know there's tons of people who're gonna say "yeah probably, just eat lots of lentils"...
> 
> I actually want to plan out a diet.
> 
> I need protein, because I need to get in shape.
> 
> But I can't force myself to eat meat anymore.
> 
> wat do


I have crohn's and I cannot eat meat... especially red meat and pork.  I am also  a distance runner and a weightlifter.  I work out hard and it is my life, seriously... the only thing I love more than working out is my kids  I don't have serious fiber issues, but some things do make me gassy, but turmeric may help with this, and Beano does as well.  For protein, I use a whey protein supplement called Designer Whey which has no artificial colors or flavors and is absorbed quickly.  I actually benefit more and see better results from my workouts now that I am a vegetarian... probably because I now feel well enough to stick to my training programs. Also the L-glutamine in the protein supplement is known to facilitate the healing process after flair-ups.


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## zoeythecat

bangarang said:


> Yes its possible, read up on the Dr McDougall program he promotes a vegan diet, some of the people on that board have crohns/colitis and found good success with his diet. Its basically low fat, high carb vegan diet.


Thank you.  I am going to look into the Dr. McDougal program as I have had really good results with a vegetarian diet.  I am not vegan though as I do use a whey protein supplement.  My main problem is not getting enough calories as I am a runner and a weightlifter, and am  very active, so maybe this program will help.


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## lenny

I've been vegan since 1999.  My son, who has Crohn's has been vegetarian his whole life, except when he went on the SCD for about a year.  He wasn't happy as a meat eater though, and is a vegetarian again.  He doesn't have any trouble getting enough calories.  His favorite foods are potato salad, tofu, pizza and pasta.


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