# Honey increases TNF



## nogutsnoglory (Aug 20, 2012)

I was very upset to read that honey increases TNF which plays a likely part in crohns disease. I have already eliminated sugar and was left with honey as my sweet tooths only option. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12824009/


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## LaLaNapa (Aug 21, 2012)

Very interesting find!  Thanks for posting it.  I've given up all cane sugar (and other processed sugars as well).  Honey has been my back up as well.  Maybe I'll give coconut palm sugar a try.


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## KMoose (Aug 21, 2012)

Can anyone explain the effects sugar in general have on Crohn's? Even a year after diagnosis, I'm still trying to figure out my diet. I've got the basics down of my "no good" foods such as fried, corn products, raw veggies/fruit, etc. But when in doubt, I've been relying on pasta and extremely sugary things, like cake (especially since I lost so much weight, a little extra sweet calories can't hurt). But am I really hurting myself more with my sweet tooth, and just attributing the symptoms to other foods? Gah. I swear this is the most confusing disease.


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## nogutsnoglory (Aug 21, 2012)

Kmoose sugar and starch feeds bacteria and if our gut has a lot of bad bacteria (one crohns theory) than we don't want to feed it. 

As for TNF alpha I am not sure about it. I suppose it's good in healthy people but for us contributes to inflammation.


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## shmo (Aug 21, 2012)

Hey, what about maple syrup? Anyone know where it stands on the spectrum?


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## nogutsnoglory (Aug 21, 2012)

As far as what Shmo? It's a sugar but I haven't seen a study linking it to TNF. It may be the next best option.


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## shmo (Aug 21, 2012)

as far as being damaging in general to people with Crohn's.

I presume it should not be treated the same way as one would refined sugar?


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## seebee (Aug 21, 2012)

Doesn't the SCD use honey in most of its recipes yet a decrease in inflammation is reported in many users of the diet?


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## nogutsnoglory (Aug 21, 2012)

seebee said:


> Doesn't the SCD use honey in most of its recipes yet a decrease in inflammation is reported in many users of the diet?


It's allowed on SCD but I think it's a small part. I don't think SCD followers eat too much honey or should. I could be wrong.


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## kiny (Aug 22, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> It's allowed on SCD but I think it's a small part. I don't think SCD followers eat too much honey or should. I could be wrong.


Honey is used in like 90% of the recipes in the book. I have it in front of me because I wanted to read what the hype was about. Honey is her staple food. It is one of the, if not the main ingredient in the diet. 

She uses it because the believes in some theory that monosaccharide are good and polysaccharide are bad, and since honey is fructose and glucose, both monosaccharids, she uses it for almost everything.

Baked Acorn Squash
-1acorn squash
-butter
*-honey*
-grated orange

Summer Fruit Terrine
-2 cups apple cider
-2 envelopers gelatin
*-1/4 cup honey*
-1/2 teaspoon vanilla

Raw cranberry Relish
-1lb cranberries
-1 orange
*-honey*

Chili sauce
-1 6qt basket ripe tomatoes
-6 cups selery
-4 cups onions
-green pepper
*-honey*

Cream of tomato soup
-2 cups of tomato juice
*-honey or saccharin*

Mayonaise
-1 whole egg
-1 1/4 cups of oil
-1 ts of vinegar
*-crushed saccarin or honey*

Baked Bean Casserole
-1lb dried white beans
-1-2 onions
-1 large tomato juice
-dry mustard
*-3-6 tablespoon of honey*

Baked Cottage cheese
-1 cup cottage cheese
-1 egg
*-1 teaspoon honey*
-1 teaspoon butter

Date Filled cookies
-4 cups nut flour
-1/3 cup butter
-1/4 teaspoon  baking sode
*-1/2 cup honey*
-1/4 teaspoon salt

etc etc


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## kiny (Aug 22, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> Kmoose sugar and starch feeds bacteria and if our gut has a lot of bad bacteria (one crohns theory) than we don't want to feed it.


This is much too simplistic, and the SCD misses the ball completely on what actually happens.

Bacteria do no just use sugar, they use lots of things depending on the type, some use sugar, others use iron. Many invasive pathogens do not use sugar but iron. Bacteria can actually speed up the process of something rusting, because they use the  iron and turn it into iron oxide and because the iron is corrodable, it make it rust even faster. Bacteria use the iron you eat as a person, that's why our body has a number of defense mechanisms to stop this, why do you think our body uses lactoferrin, one of it's mechanics is binding to iron, to stop bacteria from getting it.

So it's wrong what the SCD said, at the very least it is incomplete.

Invasive bacteria also don't tend to give one iota if you feed them or not, depletion studies (those are studies on animals where they deplete the animals with respect to sugar / iron and other metals) do not result in much improvement, bacteria will simply use other pathways to steal what they need from the host.

If it was that simple we would simply stop eating sugar and all our bad bacteria would die, that doesn't happen at all, pathogens that are potentially involved in crohn are way too advanced, and they likely don't even rely on sugar to begin with.



Another reason SCD is wrong, is that she underestimated the absorption rate and breakdown of disaccharids, and wrongly assumed that monosaccharids, still called "fast carbs", are much faster abosrbed than polysaccharids because of the breakdown process, they have shown this isn't the case _she assumed this is what happened_, she had no proof for it.


And if someone disagrees then tell me why, because people say "ah you're wrong", but don't counter any of the points made.


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## kiny (Aug 22, 2012)

A biologist commented on the diet once and he said why bother. If you wan the effect of the diet all it would take is a week of antibiotics and probiotics and you would do what would take the SCD diet years to do.


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## hugh (Aug 22, 2012)

Hey Kiny, have you tried any diets, and how did it go?
Are you dumping on them because they didn't work?
If that's the case we can probably tweak them to suit.
Or are you just dumping on them because you don't want to try them?

I know Elaine Gottschall didn't get it all right but she's done alot more for IBD sufferers than you have.

you remind me of the parable of the poison arrow from Buddhist scripture.....

_"It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him."_

    — Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta: The Shorter Instructions to Malunkya" (MN 63), Majjhima Nikaya


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## David (Aug 22, 2012)

I'm not so concerned about the increase in tnfa but that it also increases IL1b and IL6 is concerning.  

I had correlated increased pain with honey and removed it from my diet long ago.  That's part of the reason I went off the SCD as so many of the recipes would incorporate honey and I got frustrated with that.  Now I just eat very simply but in a manner where I make sure to get essential nutrients.  

This was a great find nogutsnoglory, thank you for posting it.  It explains a lot for me.


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## kiny (Aug 22, 2012)

hugh said:


> Hey Kiny, have you tried any diets, and how did it go?
> Are you dumping on them because they didn't work?


No I'm not because if anyone followed any posts I made I said I tried the SCD diet and it did nothing, but I always said that I didn't know if it might work or not work for others.

But, the more I read about it and the more I read about the person who advocated it long ago, the more I realise that this dieat is a lot of assumptions, a lot of old assumptions, and that every time someone says that the SCD helped them there is a backstory they are leaving out...they had surgery, they are on meds at the same time, etc.

I don't believe excessive carbs is good, but I also don't trust the book when they claim that monosaccharids are find and dandy but polysaccharids are somehow the devil.


What works for me is just eating tons, and not trying to care too much about what I can't eat but more about what I should be eating. I am not a fan of elimination, I would rather eat 1 bad thing and 4 good things, than being short on 4 good things while trying to avoid 1 thing that might possibly have a negative effect. 




I eliminate dairy, but that's not hard to do. Avoiding rice, potatoes, macaroni, bread, etc. like the SCD diet does, is hard to do.

People say "Western diet" ... so SCD takes out Western staple foods like bread, potatoes, macaroni,....what about rice, I have lived in Asia, all of their recipes are based on rice. So eliminate that too? What are you going to live on, eggs and chickens all day long?  What about the honey now..are you going to not eat that either? So what's left of your diet now...eggs?

You can not avoid such a huge food group as complex carbs completely.


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## ctrl z (Aug 22, 2012)

Darn. I really like honey. It's not a staple of my diet by any means, but I used it with yogurt occasionally. 

Oh well! This is good to know.


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## hugh (Aug 22, 2012)

kiny said:


> You can not avoid such a huge food group as complex carbs completely.


Sure you can
if anyone eats vegetables then they are eating some complex carbs anyway, 
It is quite possible (and easy) to avoid the high carb foods like grain and tubers.
Personally i eat some high carb foods once a day (most days) - sweet potato, parsnip, pumpkin.
I do eat rice about once a fortnight but only because it make the chicken curry go further,
I had no harmful effects from avoiding them for over a year.
There is nothing useful in grain that can't be obtained in a better form from other foods

It takes a very small amount of time to become 'fat-adapted'
Many cultures have existed on extremely low carb diets (Inuit for example)


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## JohnnyRottenAppleseed (Sep 1, 2012)

kiny said:


> A biologist commented on the diet once and he said why bother. If you wan the effect of the diet all it would take is a week of antibiotics and probiotics and you would do what would take the SCD diet years to do.


After antibiotic and probiotic therapy I can eat whatever I want. I've been in remission for two months now. I was sad to see that honey could potentially adversely affect crohns sufferers but dietary changes during a flare had minimal results for me. I do believe that crohns has a bacterial component and that bacteria feed off sugar so they could theoretically feed off honey, but I've also read that honey is antibacterial.


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## karj (Sep 1, 2012)

hey guys
I definitely have experience with manuka honey making me worse.  I absolutely love it and used to take it for the healing properties thinking i was doing myself good and i it was expensive enough! but everytime i had an increase in bleeding, so i had to cut it out


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## Tantija (Sep 1, 2012)

Hi guys! Sorry could not find what is TNF stand for?

Regarding the honey I eat it on a daily basis since I started my SCD diet in December, 2011. I feel much better once I removed all grains, starch, bread, pasta, sugar, flour from my diet. My blood test improved dramatically, it’s actually absolutely normal. Have to agree on Manuka honey, was so much surprised by the reaction as had very bad diarrhoea. Very strange… So I eat row natural honey. I know that diet suggests to use pasteurised honey to make sure that no pollen and yeast left what I did in the beginning but then I tried natural row honey and did not see any reaction. I just think that it is sad to eat dead pasteurised honey when row honey has so many minerals and vitamins.


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## Tantija (Sep 1, 2012)

_"...I don't believe excessive carbs is good, but I also don't trust the book when they claim that monosaccharids are find and dandy but polysaccharids are somehow the devil.


I eliminate dairy, but that's not hard to do. Avoiding rice, potatoes, macaroni, bread, etc. like the SCD diet does, is hard to do..."_

Hi Kiny!

I have to say that this is the best half of year of my live since 1997 (when I had first symptoms).  I did went through 2 operation in 2006, first removed ileum and the second was the follow up because I had an abscess  (I was on  prednisone at that time)  And now I do not have pain, my blood test are normal, I stopped loosing my hair. Yes, all I eat are: eggs, meat, fish, vegetables like salads, tomatoes, cucumbers (I do not like cooked vegetables except zucchini), fruits (unfortunately most of the fruits increase diarrhoea (for the same reason I had to illuminate asparagus), nuts , dry dates and honey. Let say I have to be very careful with fruits and vegetables 
But I am so happy that I do not have to use any medication! I did not want to use immunomodulators so much! I always was looking for the alternative treatment but unfortunately nothing worked for me (acupuncture, homeopathic medicine, yoga, Tai Chi) I prefer Eastern Medicine view on the illness more than Western Medicine. Western Medicine just trying to suppress the symptoms and Oriental Medicine is trying to find the reason of not being well.
Yes, it is time consuming. I bake bread from grounded nuts, I cook “jam” from berries and honey, I make yogurt from almond milk what I make from scratch. Unfortunately I am lactose intolerant. I am dreaming about cheese, curd cheese but all I can eat from diary products is butter. I was trying to ferment yogurt from goat milk even for 48 hours but still could not tolerate it. 
Yes, I make my own lunch every day to take to work, even we have free canteen, very decent by the way. My boyfriend is happy to follow my diet but of course he is free to eat whatever he wants as it does not make me feel bad that he eats something what I could not. I get used to cook separately for myself for a long time now.
I am so happy that SCD diet works for me. Even if after 2 years I would be not able to eat all the illuminated food I am ready to stay on this diet as long as it takes. It is boring sometimes and I do not treat myself anymore with pastries, chocolate, Chinese food and ect. but comparing with the fact how miserable I was, how scared I was about the future (I was born with the very short small intestine, only 2 m 35sm ( the normal length about 5 m) and after operation I have only 1 m 95 sm ( this data was given me by the surgeon)) I was afraid that after sometime I will have to go again for the operation and I do not have much left to be cut!

I do agree with you that the diet was made long time ago and some processes of the food preparation have changed since. I mean manufactures. Everybody is obsessed now with the healthy diet and manufactures have to meet the requirements of the customers.

But Have to disagree regarding monosaccharide and polysaccharides as they have different chemical formulas so polysaccharides are more difficult to digets.


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## nogutsnoglory (Sep 1, 2012)

One thing about SCD is that she doesn't list all foods. For example what about hemp seeds? I also think welchs grape juice unsweetened is not nearly as safe as an organic no sugar added grape juice. I think things were written because that's what she knew at the time. I say just use it as a guide.


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## dodo1953 (Sep 2, 2012)

Re:sugar. All I know it that it leaches water from the bowel, thus possible even more watery diarrhea.


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## kiny (Sep 2, 2012)

Tantija said:


> Hi guys! Sorry could not find what is TNF stand for?


TNF (alpha if you want) is a prime defense mechanism of the immune system, it's a cytokine release by macrophages, depending on if the macrophage is empty or not and depending on the pathogen, the release can be low or extremely high.

The idea of _some people_ is that by avoiding excessive TNF you can lower the immune response, and while this seems to be true, you are also lowering your primary defense mechanism.

TNF are extremely powerful and your body needs them to fight of infections and to destroy certain cells.

There's also a lot of arguments back and forth how important TNF is and how come crohn have high levels of TNF, if TNF is being released because of some immune response that is misguided or if it's simply being release from macrophages by "trojan horse" pathogens like AIEC or MAP.

When macrophages become infected with MAP and AIEC, the release of TNF is extremely high, but if it's high enough to explain the increased TNF in crohn's disease, they don't know.

Also, there's arguments about which is the main contributer to tissue damage, is it actually the immune response or is it related to oxidative stress (ROS) , which can be worse if TNF levels are higher and vice versa.


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## David (Sep 2, 2012)

kiny said:


> Also, there's arguments about which is the main contributer to tissue damage, is it actually the immune response or is it related to oxidative stress (ROS) , which can be worse if TNF levels are higher and vice versa.


This is what I'm looking into right now (oxidative stress and stuff associated with that).  Have you ever wondered why so many with Crohn's have trouble with lettuce?


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## kiny (Sep 2, 2012)

I don't know, was told not to eat it long ago (10 years ago when I was in the hospital) because the doc told me lettuce won't digest very well, I still to this day do not eat lettuce since I assume what he said was right.

What's special about lettuce?


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## David (Sep 2, 2012)

High nitrate levels.

You might enjoy this Kiny: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248324/


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## JohnnyRottenAppleseed (Sep 3, 2012)

Lettuce is also in the top ten foods
To eat organic because they are covered in Pesticides.


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## scoutfinch (Sep 23, 2012)

Does anyone know of any other foods that increase TNF?


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## prplkow (Sep 23, 2012)

Not sure if it is true, but I read that very ripe bananas with dark spotty skin do.


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## Trysha (Sep 23, 2012)

Tantija said:


> Hi guys! Sorry could not find what is TNF stand for?
> 
> Hello Tantija
> TNF is Tumour Necrosis Factor


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## CrohnsChicago (Sep 23, 2012)

I think that maybe I have an advantage because my crohn's is in my colon and not my small intestine? 

Because honey and lettuce don't bother me and in fact are two things I am able to eat when I am in a flare. I use clove honey all the time (in my tea, in my oatmeal, in my smoothies). I have never heard of the 3 honeys mentioned in this article unless clove is some kind of variation of the 3. 

Guess everyone is really THAT different when it comes to diet....or it's that I'm just a bit confused...


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## tzvia (Jul 26, 2013)

For David and NoGutsNoGlory,
I'm wondering what you guys use as a sweetener.  I've been doing mostly honey for about a year, as I try to follow and scd/paleo diet.  Sometimes I think the honey bothers me and now reading about the increase in TNF it makes me wonder.  So what do you guys think is the best sweetener?  I have a sweet tooth and I need something sweet sometimes!


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## nogutsnoglory (Jul 26, 2013)

I'm no longer paleo but if you want a sweet option other than honey you could consider maple syrup (makes great fudge and candy) and coconut sugar. Agave is another option but its really come under fire lately for being as unhealthy as corn syrup.


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## Tantija (Jul 27, 2013)

Hi guys. I do not know how it works but it works for me. I am on SCD diet from December 2011 and my blood test is absolutelly normal. It does not show any inflamation at all. I have sweet tooth also and eat honey and dried dates. I eat big, soft and meaty dates from Israel. I have noticed that if eat other dates I have difficulties to digest them. The only one thing what I do not follow from the diet is that I eat row honey not pasterised. I just think that pasterised honey is dead honey but row has vitamins and minerals I need. Regarding sugar I am sure it increases inflamation. I felt it myself when was eating Frosties as a snack before the diet. 
I am very glad that I feel so well since I am on the diet. It could sound boring but I do not mind to bake nut bread, make yougurt, cook jam, cook lunch for myself, do not eat out and stay in selfcatering appartments on holiday for the rest of my life as long as it works.


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## kel (Jul 27, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> I was very upset to read that honey increases TNF which plays a likely part in crohns disease. I have already eliminated sugar and was left with honey as my sweet tooths only option.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12824009/


Do you have a link to the full text?


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## nogutsnoglory (Jul 27, 2013)

Sorry I don't but we have a user here who subscribes to these databanks I need to find out who maybe he can get it.


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## Poop2Much (Jul 28, 2013)

An amazing sweet is frozen banana "soft serve." if you freeze bananas after they develop some brown spots, and then "juice" them using an auger style juicer, it will make a banana dessert with the consistency of soft ice cream but it is 100% banana, lactose free, and, except for the normal sugar in a banana, sugar free. Those on the Jersey Shore are probably familiar with the Bashful Banana and their famous "Banana Whips." Same thing.


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## Mountaingem (Jul 29, 2013)

David said:


> This is what I'm looking into right now (oxidative stress and stuff associated with that).  Have you ever wondered why so many with Crohn's have trouble with lettuce?


Does the amount of nitrates consumed seem to be an issue or is any amount discouraged?


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