# Cannabis use provides symptom relief in patients with IBD but is associated with worse disease prognosis in patients with Crohn's disease



## kiny

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24407485

2014 Mar

*Cannabis use provides symptom relief in patients with inflammatory bowel disease but is associated with worse disease prognosis in patients with Crohn's disease.*

Storr M1, Devlin S, Kaplan GG, Panaccione R, Andrews CN.

Department of Medicine, University of Munich.

*BACKGROUND:*
Cannabinoids are used by patients with inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) to alleviate their symptoms. Little is known on patient motivation, benefit, or risks of this practice. Our aim was to assess the extent and motives for Cannabis use in patients with IBD and the beneficial and adverse effects associated with self-administration of Cannabis.


*METHODS:*
Consecutive patients with IBD (n = 313) seen in the University of Calgary from July 2008 to March 2009 completed a structured anonymous questionnaire covering motives, pattern of use, and subjective beneficial and adverse effects associated with self-administration of Cannabis. Subjects who had used Cannabis specifically for the treatment of IBD or its symptoms were compared with those who had not. Logistic regression analysis was used to identify variables predictive of poor IBD outcomes, specifically surgery or hospitalization for IBD.

*
RESULTS:*
Cannabis had been used by 17.6% of respondents specifically to relieve symptoms associated with their IBD, the majority by inhalational route (96.4%). Patients with IBD reported that Cannabis improved abdominal pain (83.9%), abdominal cramping (76.8%), joint pain (48.2%), and diarrhea (28.6%), although side effects were frequent. The use of Cannabis for more than 6 months at any time for IBD symptoms was a strong predictor of requiring surgery in patients with Crohn's disease (odds ratio = 5.03, 95% confidence interval = 1.45-17.46) after correcting for demographic factors, tobacco smoking status, time since IBD diagnosis, and biological use. Cannabis was not a predictor for hospitalization for IBD in the previous year.

*CONCLUSIONS:*
Cannabis use is common in patients with IBD and subjectively improved pain and diarrheal symptoms. However, Cannabis use was associated with higher risk of surgery in patients with Crohn's disease. Patients using Cannabis should be cautioned about potential harm, until clinical trials evaluate efficacy and safety.


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## wildbill_52280

so these conclusions were based on a questionaire? and no actual examinations or measurements of the patients were done? id say this isn't enough info to come to any conclusions at all, but its great they tried to get some information. I'd say, not very good science here.


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## Kero

Without doctor examination, I would say this study is bunk. With a questionaire and no "control", how can you be sure the patients were being completely honest? And one person's idea of normal is not necessarily what is considered medically normal


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## ce1210

I am starting to notice a trend...legit cannabis studies show very positive results while studies based on crap science/gov funded studies tend to show mixed or negative results


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## Searchingforhealth

I thought Crohns disease is considered IBD? Are they saying IBD is the term for only Ulcerative colitis? My daughter has been using a strain of marajuana with only CBD and her inflammation has improved considerably as seen in her latest scopes. She is taking the oil by mouth and has no negative side effects.


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## kiny

Searchingforhealth said:


> I thought Crohns disease is considered IBD? Are they saying IBD is the term for only Ulcerative colitis?


they distinguish symptom relief with clinical outcomes, while it  improved abdominal pain, abdominal cramping, joint pain, and diarrhea, the cannabis using crohn's disease demographic had more surgeries.

so, the title, symptom relief but worse prognosis for those ppl iin the study


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## vonfunk

When you consider that there is  portion of people who start using marijuana because the disease is progressing to the point of needing surgery the idea behind the study is intrinsically flawed.  Correlation is not causation. 

I didn't start smoking pot until after diagnosis, it wasn't until my disease started getting progressively worse and I was heading towards needing surgery that I started smoking pot. My Doctor within the first 6 months of diagnosis was already advocating surgery, and had given me an estimate of how long he thought I would last with a colon.


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## puphead

I heard somewhere that smoking Cannabis lower your immune's system response so maybe and its just maybe its got something to do with the hypothesis that Crohns actually is caused by immunodeficiency?


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## VeganOstomy

ce1210 said:


> I am starting to notice a trend...legit cannabis studies show very positive results while studies based on crap science/gov funded studies tend to show mixed or negative results


Where are the legit studies?

The one i see most often is a double-blind which had the control group with Crohn's smoke regular cigarettes (a known trigger for worsening Crohn's symptoms).  Not exactly an honest study.


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## nogutsnoglory

vonfunk said:


> When you consider that there is  portion of people who start using marijuana because the disease is progressing to the point of needing surgery the idea behind the study is intrinsically flawed.  Correlation is not causation.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't start smoking pot until after diagnosis, it wasn't until my disease started getting progressively worse and I was heading towards needing surgery that I started smoking pot. My Doctor within the first 6 months of diagnosis was already advocating surgery, and had given me an estimate of how long he thought I would last with a colon.



I think you make a very valid point. The reason some with CD may have more surgery is because these are people with more aggressive disease who are desperate for solutions. Maybe it's not the cannabis but rather their aggressive flare? I agree that while I'm happy to see new studies it can't be taken too seriously.


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## vonfunk

puphead said:


> I heard somewhere that smoking Cannabis lower your immune's system response so maybe and its just maybe its got something to do with the hypothesis that Crohns actually is caused by immunodeficiency?


Actually CB1 & CB2 receptors are activated by cannabinoids, which causes a mild TNF inhibition, reducing inflammation and acting in a similar way to Remicade, Humira etc.


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## LKelley

Searchingforhealth said:


> I thought Crohns disease is considered IBD? Are they saying IBD is the term for only Ulcerative colitis? My daughter has been using a strain of marajuana with only CBD and her inflammation has improved considerably as seen in her latest scopes. She is taking the oil by mouth and has no negative side effects.


Hi Searchingforhealth.Glad to year the CBD is helping your daughter. I am trying to find high CBD/low or no THC for my son who has Crohn's. Can you tell which collective in the Bay Area your daughter found this?


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## hugh

junk food munchies connection?


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## wildbill_52280

hugh said:


> junk food munchies connection?


i was thinking the same thing.

those pot heads would likely be eating more junk.


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## wildbill_52280

VeganOstomy said:


> Where are the legit studies?
> 
> The one i see most often is a double-blind which had the control group with Crohn's smoke regular cigarettes (a known trigger for worsening Crohn's symptoms).  Not exactly an honest study.


i think they smoked marijuana cigarettes not tobacco cigarettes.

either way the study found benefits but i really dont like the way this study was designed because they seemed to be altering the plants natural composition.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23648372


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## VeganOstomy

wildbill_52280 said:


> they smoked marijuana cigarettes not tobacco cigarettes.


There's another study which I've seen others promote and it's a double-blind with controls smoking regular tobacco that's had the active component to cannabis removed (so they think they're smoking real cannabis).  The study group used marijuana.   So it's no wonder the controls had worse results (in that study).


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## David

"Studies" like this mean very little to me.  Get in there with your damn colonoscopy in a double blind placebo controlled and tell me if there is reduced inflammation and mucosal healing or not.  And throw in a heap of blood tests as well.

Regardless, thanks for posting this Kiny


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## VeganOstomy

David said:


> "Studies" like this mean very little to me.  Get in there with your damn colonoscopy in a double blind placebo controlled and tell me if there is reduced inflammation and mucosal healing or not.  And throw in a heap of blood tests as well.
> 
> Regardless, thanks for posting this Kiny


Exactly. :cool2:


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## wildbill_52280

David said:


> "Studies" like this mean very little to me.  Get in there with your damn colonoscopy in a double blind placebo controlled and tell me if there is reduced inflammation and mucosal healing or not.  And throw in a heap of blood tests as well.
> 
> Regardless, thanks for posting this Kiny


excellent point!! otherwise it seems like a waste of funding. why generate multiple substandard studies when you could just do one excellent designed study and get it over with to answer a question almost conclusively?

assuming you can find patients that have the willingness to do all of this that is!!it takes time to recruit people for these studies, who wants to go through a colonoscopy just for the sake of science?


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## Nancye50

David said:


> "Studies" like this mean very little to me.  Get in there with your damn colonoscopy in a double blind placebo controlled and tell me if there is reduced inflammation and mucosal healing or not.  And throw in a heap of blood tests as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless, thanks for posting this Kiny



This is exactly what I've been reading up to find. Doesn't exist, huh?  Dangit!


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## VeganOstomy

wildbill_52280 said:


> assuming you can find patients that have the willingness to do all of this that is!!it takes time to recruit people for these studies, who wants to go through a colonoscopy just for the sake of science?


I've been in a clinical trial and would do it again if I had the chance.  Trials are FAR more thorough than a regular dr's visit... regular blood tests, urine tests, stool samples, free meds and often monetary compensation.  If it's a stage 2/3 test, then there's less to worry about when it comes to safety.  A cannabis trial would be in high demand as it touts "safety" (debatable) and little side effects, however, you always run the risk of worsening your illness with experimental trials.  

Currently, there's anecdotal evidence that people with nausea, poor appetite, weight loss, trouble sleeping, could benefit from cannabis if nothing else.  As an adjudicative therapy, I think there's promise, but I don't believe it heals moderate/severe Crohn's like some other drugs can.


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## tiloah

Yea, a lot of correlation causation here. It seems likely to me that higher marijuana usage would be associated with more severe disease process, thus making it look like the marijuana usage itself is the culprit. Double blind placebo controlled trial is definitely needed before any conclusions can be drawn.


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## vongoh

vonfunk said:


> When you consider that there is  portion of people who start using marijuana because the disease is progressing to the point of needing surgery the idea behind the study is intrinsically flawed.  Correlation is not causation.
> 
> I didn't start smoking pot until after diagnosis, it wasn't until my disease started getting progressively worse and I was heading towards needing surgery that I started smoking pot. My Doctor within the first 6 months of diagnosis was already advocating surgery, and had given me an estimate of how long he thought I would last with a colon.


This is exactly it.   Of the entire population of people with Crohns:

1 - How many are predisposed to use it right away as soon as they are diagnosed

vs

2 - The much larger majority that are  

a) not comfortable with using it (fear, legality, social pressure).

b) cannot get access to for legal reasons, or 

c) any other reason that prevents them from immediately starting use until they are at the point of literal desperation.

Category #2 is much, much greater part of the overall population than category one.   We don't even need to see hard data to deductively see that this is true.  But it has to be over 80% (probably more).

Therefore the study is bunk.  This is obvious to anyone with common sense and clear thinking.

I also wholeheartedly agree with a comment made earlier re: the following truism:

If its funded by corporate government (but I repeat myself) entities - we can be very sure that there is high probability that there is huge bias, hidden agendas,  and often outright deliberate fraud at the core of it. 

News on this is coming out every day from every angle.  Studies like this have 0 credibility if you are following current events (real ones - not propoganda ones) concerning everything about modern 'evidence based' medicine.

These types of studies are propaganda and should be treated as such.  Wait for the real studies to come - we will know them when we see them.


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## ce1210

VeganOstomy said:


> I've been in a clinical trial and would do it again if I had the chance.  Trials are FAR more thorough than a regular dr's visit... regular blood tests, urine tests, stool samples, free meds and often monetary compensation.  If it's a stage 2/3 test, then there's less to worry about when it comes to safety.  A cannabis trial would be in high demand as it touts "safety" (debatable) and little side effects, however, you always run the risk of worsening your illness with experimental trials.
> 
> Currently, there's anecdotal evidence that people with nausea, poor appetite, weight loss, trouble sleeping, could benefit from cannabis if nothing else.  As an adjudicative therapy, I think there's promise, but I don't believe it heals moderate/severe Crohn's like some other drugs can.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2451037/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2931570/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165957/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2664885/

most of these studies are done on mice so obviously far from proving safe therapeutic benefits but they do show that cannabis could help decrease bowel motility and inflammation which would most def promote mucosal healing...and they need to be testing cannabis concentrates as thats where the most med benefits are I believe I was being told with 6-mp and humira I'd be in and out of the doc/er and would def need surgery. Been on cannabis concentrates and organic high probiotic diet with no pharma besides prilosec for months now and feel the best that I have in years...


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## ce1210

another good one.....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20117132


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## VeganOstomy

ce1210 said:


> most of these studies are done on mice so obviously far from proving safe therapeutic benefits but they do show that cannabis could help decrease bowel motility and inflammation which would most def promote mucosal healing...


Unfortunately, mice are not people - especially mice that were purposely given colitis in order to test and dissect them. 

Second, two of the four studies listed were funded by a pharmaceutical company that profits from selling medicinal cannabis, so there's a bias already. 

I have no doubts that there may be medicinal properties to cannabis (we already use it medically for a reason), but it should be easy enough to test the theory on consenting humans so we can put the case to rest and move forward with providing help to those who need it. 

My doc refused to prescribe cannabis, even though the Canadian government already indicates that Crohn's disease qualifies for eligibility. Instead, I was put on Prednisone, which if didn't help some people, I'd assume it was a chemical used to torture prisoners. 

I do hope that more funding goes into researching medicinal cannabis, since it's use,  even as an adjunct, could help a lot of people.


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## rusty2112

I didn't try cannabis until a couple of years ago. I had 6 resections and a illiostomy before I was desperate enough to try it. I have used remicade, humira, and Cimzia in the past and they did help the crohn's but I had so many severe infections the doctors took me off the biologicals for good. I won't even mention steroids. Since I have been using cannabis brownies I have not even been to the GI clinic once. I don't know about the clinical trials and don't really care. All I know is what is. I can truly have a life now and I am pretty happy most of the time. I don't know why the cannabis works so well for me. 

When I see the commercials for humira I am amazed that anyone would take a chance using it. Behind the beautiful music and scenes of people having a wonderful life the possible side effects are quickly mentioned. I sometimes wonder what a commercial for cannabis would be like. 

I feel awful for anyone that has this disease. I would do or try just about anything to help someone that has crohn's disease. It does take over almost every aspect of your life when it is active. I had many psychological issues that I would not have had otherwise. Getting help for that was very important for me. I tried to hide the symptoms from others for some reason. 

Just realized I am babbling. Sorry.


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## ce1210

rusty2112 said:


> I didn't try cannabis until a couple of years ago. I had 6 resections and a illiostomy before I was desperate enough to try it. I have used remicade, humira, and Cimzia in the past and they did help the crohn's but I had so many severe infections the doctors took me off the biologicals for good. I won't even mention steroids. Since I have been using cannabis brownies I have not even been to the GI clinic once. I don't know about the clinical trials and don't really care. All I know is what is. I can truly have a life now and I am pretty happy most of the time. I don't know why the cannabis works so well for me.
> 
> When I see the commercials for humira I am amazed that anyone would take a chance using it. Behind the beautiful music and scenes of people having a wonderful life the possible side effects are quickly mentioned. I sometimes wonder what a commercial for cannabis would be like.
> 
> I feel awful for anyone that has this disease. I would do or try just about anything to help someone that has crohn's disease. It does take over almost every aspect of your life when it is active. I had many psychological issues that I would not have had otherwise. Getting help for that was very important for me. I tried to hide the symptoms from others for some reason.
> 
> Just realized I am babbling. Sorry.


Hahaha the funny thing is they do have "cannabis commercials" but they are the ones where the kid smokes weed and never leaves the couch, eventually actually physically melting into the couch, insinuating weed makes you lazy. If it wasn't for cannabis, I wouldn't be able to work the 60 hours a week that I work between the crohn's an the arthritis... 

Yet, humira is all clouds, happy music, and kids running around...then you listen to the "fast talking man" come in w/ the side effects ie, lymphoma, hepatitis, pancreatitis, liver problems, skin problems, eye problems, etc. I'm sure it helps people, but I feel like it should always be a last resort.

Cannabis completely changed my life after my diagnosis, and it has allowed me to get off all the crohn's meds (entocort,LDN,6-mp,asacol hd) and eat things that I'd had to give up too...


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## Nancye50

First I want to say that I appreciate this forum even more for the fact that you all know and share which research articles are crap and which are solid. So many people put faith in anything published!

I'm so intrigued by the use of cannibis. We are moving to Nebraska. I'm not familiar with the relevant legislation there. Medical marijuana isn't an option there is it?


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## Bob Rose

I used it for several years for help with Crohn's and it was very helpful.  The implication that such use may be a cause for surgery is laughable.  Of course sicker people who are trying everything are more likely to be sicker, you might as well say more frequent visits to the doctor is a likely cause.


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## Nurse Nausea 2016

I'm currently undiagnosed, waiting for my scope appointment, but the GI also strongly suspected Crohn's. Ive been battling severe symptoms for almost 6 months and can't get help because I don't have insurance. I am fully convinced that weed is the only reason I'm alive and not in the hospital. It's the only thing that stops my nausea and the only thing that even slows the diarrhea. Also the only reason I am able to eat on the rare occasions that I do. It doesn't help with my fatigue, I'll be the first to admit it does make me sleepy and lazy lol 

I used to be so against pot smoking, used to give my husband total hell over it, and now I can't stand my stomach without it. I think its bad karma lol 

*posted from a cheap tablet, please excuse any typos *


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## long time crohnie

I have used marijuana for years on and off for a variety of reasons throughout my battle with Crohn's. Whether it was for relief of cramping, to increase appetite when I could not eat, help me to sleep when full of worry and anxiety, to ease rectal pain when I suffered with horrible perianal disease and surgeries and to help w D. I just don't understand the issue about legalizing a drug that does have benefits for those in pain and does not cause the physical addiction that all the other pain meds out there! I have had 3 GI docs in my life w Crohns and all have said they have patients who use MJ and have found in very helpful. I will say, I don't like to smoke it cuz it can make me cough too hard and makes more pain, but I have used a vapor and it worked wonders!! I pray everyday that Wisconsin would wake up, but I doubt it, too conservative a state.


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## ce1210

Nancye50 said:


> First I want to say that I appreciate this forum even more for the fact that you all know and share which research articles are crap and which are solid. So many people put faith in anything published!
> 
> I'm so intrigued by the use of cannibis. We are moving to Nebraska. I'm not familiar with the relevant legislation there. Medical marijuana isn't an option there is it?


I do not believe MMJ is a legal option in Nebraska at this time unfortunately so you could only get it off the street there...


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## Nancye50

I didn't think so, thanks ce1210. I think it's a non-criminalized state or whatever the term is.


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## ce1210

yes cannabis is somewhat decriminalized there so you would obviously be doing any cannabis related activities at your own risk, but I would feel much better about doing what I do in Nebraska than in Tennessee...


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## FrancisK7

To be fair with the researchers, the conclusion does not imply causality but only an associated risk. This associated risk could be because patients who typically use cannabis in relation to their IBD use it as a last resort option when all has failed or their flare is very aggressive, which means the need for surgery is already present.

Implying cannabinoids actually do damage (if that is the case, like I said I haven't read the full paper) would show a terrible understanding of how cannabinoids work and would immediately discredit the researchers. I doubt that is the case. 

Though I admit the sample and method is really not rigorous. Ultimately the biggest red flag is that 96%+ of participants inhaled their cannabis, when the literature shows that ingestion is the most appropriate delivery method for long-term cannabinoid therapy. If the researchers did their due diligence, the full article should make a mention of that.


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## abovetheclouds

Nancye50 said:


> First I want to say that I appreciate this forum even more for the fact that you all know and share which research articles are crap and which are solid. So many people put faith in anything published!
> 
> I'm so intrigued by the use of cannibis. We are moving to Nebraska. I'm not familiar with the relevant legislation there. Medical marijuana isn't an option there is it?


Marijuana is illegal in NE and it is *not* a medical state, however NE has some of the best laws in the country out of all the non-medical states.

The max penalty (for your 3rd offense) is 7 days incarceration and a $500 fine. For the first offense, there is no incarceration. Many other states have one-year minimum sentences (which usually means probation). 

You can find the relevant info at Norml (I can't post the link since I don't have 10 posts, but google "norml nebraska laws").


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## SkYtZo1

VeganOstomy said:


> I've been in a clinical trial and would do it again if I had the chance.  Trials are FAR more thorough than a regular dr's visit... regular blood tests, urine tests, stool samples, free meds and often monetary compensation.  If it's a stage 2/3 test, then there's less to worry about when it comes to safety.  A cannabis trial would be in high demand as it touts "safety" (debatable) and little side effects, however, you always run the risk of worsening your illness with experimental trials.
> 
> Currently, there's anecdotal evidence that people with nausea, poor appetite, weight loss, trouble sleeping, could benefit from cannabis if nothing else.  As an adjudicative therapy, I think there's promise, but I don't believe it heals moderate/severe Crohn's like some other drugs can.


 As a moderate to severe Crohn's patient that's tried it both ways, I can tell you that symptom relief trumps long-term health - especially when the relief is just an extra-large helping of "F**k it" that's going to hasten complete relief (removal of diseased tissue) if only for a period of a few years.


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## VeganOstomy

SkYtZo1 said:


> As a moderate to severe Crohn's patient that's tried it both ways, I can tell you that symptom relief trumps long-term health - especially when the relief is just an extra-large helping of "F**k it" that's going to hasten complete relief (removal of diseased tissue) if only for a period of a few years.


Yes, I wish my GI approved of medicinal cannabis when I was having a hard time just wanting to eat or sleep.  I think it would have helped considerably in dealing with symptoms, but for me, my colon was rubbish and surgery was really all that was left.


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## Bob Rose

First a word about my own crohns.  I've been dealing with it for 23 years.  It was extremely severe early on, I actually died once and had to be revived.  I have only taken a mild anti-spasmodic drug initially for past flare ups and have almost completely gone into remission with diet, stress reduction and lifestyle changes.  I would take exception that anyone is "healed" through drugs, although, in moderation, they can be very helpful in getting through extreme periods.  I used cannabis twice, each time for a year or two 14 years ago and it was extremely helpful.  The way to healing is through identifying and reducing immune system triggers in diet, environment and emotions, and allowing the immune response to calm down.  This is not easy nor quick, and can be very different for each of us, but it is the only way that has worked for me and the only way I've seen work for others.


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## Lady Organic

ce1210 said:


> Hahaha the funny thing is they do have "cannabis commercials" but they are the ones where the kid smokes weed and never leaves the couch, eventually actually physically melting into the couch, insinuating weed makes you lazy. If it wasn't for cannabis, I wouldn't be able to work the 60 hours a week that I work between the crohn's an the arthritis...
> 
> Yet, humira is all clouds, happy music, and kids running around...then you listen to the "fast talking man" come in w/ the side effects ie, lymphoma, hepatitis, pancreatitis, liver problems, skin problems, eye problems, etc. I'm sure it helps people, but I feel like it should always be a last resort.
> 
> Cannabis completely changed my life after my diagnosis, and it has allowed me to get off all the crohn's meds (entocort,LDN,6-mp,asacol hd) and eat things that I'd had to give up too...


how long have you been meds free? are you still healthy? cannabis helped both your arthritis and crohn's? Im currently waiting an appointemnt in a cannabis medical clinic. How much do you take per day and which route do you use? thanks!


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## ce1210

Lady Organic said:


> how long have you been meds free? are you still healthy? cannabis helped both your arthritis and crohn's? Im currently waiting an appointemnt in a cannabis medical clinic. How much do you take per day and which route do you use? thanks!


I have been meds free for a year and a half, I vaporize ab .5 gram of hash oil per day. I use a heated ceramic "nail" attached to a water filtration system (a bong). Higher cbd would be better but I get what I can in a non medical state. Will be moving soon though.


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## ce1210

ce1210 said:


> I have been meds free for a year and a half, I vaporize ab .5 gram of hash oil per day. I use a heated ceramic "nail" attached to a water filtration system (a bong). Higher cbd would be better but I get what I can in a non medical state. Will be moving soon though.


I am still healthy btw, I have lil disturbances here and there but no flares. Symptoms are more like mild ibs than Crohn's as long as I have herb. And if I do really well with my diet and have herb I don't have any symptoms at all. Unfortunately I've gone back to eating a lot of junk but my bowel movements are normal 1-2 a day always between 7-9 am...I do still take Prilosec but am down to 20mg a day from 60 as was prescribed by my last gi


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## Lady Organic

ce1210 said:


> I have been meds free for a year and a half, I vaporize ab .5 gram of hash oil per day. I use a heated ceramic "nail" attached to a water filtration system (a bong). Higher cbd would be better but I get what I can in a non medical state. Will be moving soon though.


Thank you for your response. are you being monitored by a GI? for me  convincing testimonies comes from patients who have been declared healthy by a GI. personal subjectivity is not something I value anymore because I have been caught with my own subjectivity in the past. Thought I was healthy without my meds for a year, with no real symptoms and then full colonoscopy reveals mild inflammation somewhere eslse than usual. At that moment I was so stubborn in my idea that I was not sick and didnt need meds that i didnt take them as prescribed. That was prolly the worst idea I had in my life, because a few months after, the flare escalated at my typical spot and then ended up with chronic arthritis a year later!!!. this disease is unpredictable so my experience tells me to keep it in full remission no matter by which means. Even if we are used to minor flares which seem easily controllable, we never know how things can turn. Even mild inflammation over months and years can lead to complications, extra-intestinal manifestations and surgeries, not to mention increased risk of cancer. this could explain why some patients who probably refuse to take medication and hold on to natural approaches to treat the IBD and who stop going to the doctor escalate to surgeries, like this study shows.
I am all for natural approaches, but if they are not doing the job complitely to acheive remission, i find its best to take medication to avoid further possible problems. Only medical tests can declare remission. without that and proper fallow up, I think we are playing with our lifes when we only rely on our own subjectivity.


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## wildbill_52280

Lady Organic said:


> Thank you for your response. are you being monitored by a GI? for me  convincing testimonies comes from patients who have been declared healthy by a GI. personal subjectivity is not something I value anymore because I have been caught with my own subjectivity in the past. Thought I was healthy without my meds for a year, with no real symptoms and then full colonoscopy reveals mild inflammation somewhere eslse than usual. At that moment I was so stubborn in my idea that I was not sick and didnt need meds that i didnt take them as prescribed. That was prolly the worst idea I had in my life, because a few months after, the flare escalated at my typical spot and then ended up with chronic arthritis a year later!!!. this disease is unpredictable so my experience tells me to keep it in full remission no matter by which means. Even if we are used to minor flares which seem easily controllable, we never know how things can turn. Even mild inflammation over months and years can lead to complications, extra-intestinal manifestations and surgeries, not to mention increased risk of cancer. this could explain why some patients who probably refuse to take medication and hold on to natural approaches to treat the IBD and who stop going to the doctor escalate to surgeries, like this study shows.
> I am all for natural approaches, but if they are not doing the job complitely to acheive remission, i find its best to take medication to avoid further possible problems. Only medical tests can declare remission. without that and proper fallow up, I think we are playing with our lifes when we only rely on our own subjectivity.


Lady Organic, she did say she has 1-2 bm's per day, and that is an objective evaluation, buts that only 1 of many signs of remission. Blood tests are the next way to measure objectively CRP, ESR, Calprotectin. 

But immeasurable, unobservalble subjective states are also valuable, if she just says she feel smore normal, that also has value, but of course, these are things people coudl lie about or have bad judgement in this area, they may feel improved compared to last week, but maybe they forgot what normal feels like so their subjective judgement of normal is off so there really is no objective way to tell how someone feels, but typically if someone is doing really bad psychologiclly they will not be able to contain or hide this pain. 

Also, there are now studies which actually back up her testimony and other people who have similar claims. And these seem to be people who have previously relied on the most powerful drugs, so even though their testimonies are not as good as under medical/scientific supervision, i believe some of these testimonies to be fairly good. There are a few people on this website who have used marijuana and they actually seem really smart, so that makes their testimony more believable as well. Rodent studies also back up her testimony. Their is still no way to know how much she is in remission though.

 Marijuana is worth the shot in my book, plus its harmless so excessive precaution and evaluation is not necessary.


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## Lady Organic

oh yeah I am all open to it and this thursday I have an appointment at a cannabis medical clinic because this is a alternative treatment I believe in. i would like to add it in my arsenal. However, I read so many testimonies on the forum of people seeking alternative medecine and diets, quitting doctors and monitoring althogether. Such testimonies are yes interesting, but not convincing. I know  from personal experience subjectivity is tricky and no more a reliable tool for me. i really encourage doctors monitoring in order to avoid bad surprises, just like it may happen to some of the patients using cannabis and who end up to surgery as this research shows. I am sure cannabis use can camouflage IBD activity in some patients and give the feeling of health. feeling better and improuved and reduced BM is great, but it doesnt mean the disease is in remission. Dr Pannacione who is one of the authors of this research is a very reputable IBD specialist in Canada, and he BTW recently joined the QuBiologics crohns SSi vaccine trial team.


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## David

Lady Organic said:


> oh yeah I am all open to it and this thursday I have an appointment at a cannabis medical clinic because this is a alternative treatment I believe in. i would like to add it in my arsenal. However, I read so many testimonies on the forum of people seeking alternative medecine and diets, quitting doctors and monitoring althogether. Such testimonies are yes interesting, but not convincing. I know  from personal experience subjectivity is tricky and no more a reliable tool for me. i really encourage doctors monitoring in order to avoid bad surprises, just like it may happen to some of the patients using cannabis and who end up to surgery as this research shows. I am sure cannabis use can camouflage IBD activity in some patients and give the feeling of health. feeling better and improuved and reduced BM is great, but it doesnt mean the disease is in remission. Dr Pannacione who is one of the authors of this research is a very reputable IBD specialist in Canada, and he BTW recently joined the QuBiologics crohns SSi vaccine trial team.


I agree with you 100%.  I completely support people utilizing marijuana in the treatment of Crohn's but feel it's vitally important to be properly monitored to make sure there isn't that chronic, smoldering inflammation that leads to major issues down the line.


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## ce1210

David said:


> I agree with you 100%.  I completely support people utilizing marijuana in the treatment of Crohn's but feel it's vitally important to be properly monitored to make sure there isn't that chronic, smoldering inflammation that leads to major issues down the line.


Had a colonoscopy 3 weeks ago that showed no inflammation...I'm not seeing a GI regularly now but I am keeping up with colonoscopies to make sure I'm staying healthy. I was diagnosed 2 years ago. The colonoscopy I had then showed severe inflammation throughout. I went to a different GI for my recent colonoscopy. He said I had a bit of scarring in one area but was completely inflammation free and my blood test came back normal.


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## ce1210

Look up coltyn turner...he posts his results online he's a teenager with Crohn's that uses only cannabis oil and gets monitored regularly by docs


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## David

That's great that they didn't find any inflammation!  I'm so happy for you.


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