# Your opinions on Jordan Rubin and Dr. Brasco's Guts and Glory book?



## Piatchi (Feb 3, 2011)

Hi all, 

I've been reading a book my mother-in-law gave me after I was diagnosed with Crohn's, called "Restoring Your Digestive Health" the Guts and Glory program.

In a nutshell, it basically preaches eating like our ancient ancestors --- special lean meats (like wild game and fish, not fatty steaks)  and to drink things like kefir.
It also mentions HSOs, which are the probiotics from soil. According to the book, the bacteria in kefir and yeast are more aggressive and will actually run out some "bad" strains of yeasts and bacteria and reinoculate the colon and mucous membrane with various beneficial bacteria.
The co-author Jordan Rubin says he was near-death from severe Crohns and dehydration caused from it when he was 19, and by 25 with fermented foods and these HSO probiotics, he was vibrant and strong, and now without Crohn's.


So... has anyone read this book? What are your thoughts about it? Its a wonderful book and an interesting theory, I just want to know if any of you have went down this road already and how it may have worked for you!

Thanks a lot in advance from a new member on these forums,

Trevor Lewis


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## jaycee (Feb 4, 2011)

Hey Trevor,
I've read Jordan Rubin's "The Maker's Diet" and have tried to follow some of the diet for the last month or two. I didn't feel well at all when started and honestly don't feel any better right now, but it hasn't been that long either. I do like a lot of the advice he gives on diet with regards to "clean" animals.

I googled him and the word "scam" together and there was a lot of negative info on his schooling credentials and claims on the labels of his products he promotes thru his books. I have also read many positive reviews of his products that many people have swore that the products have helped them. All that being said, I still recently bought and am taking his probiotic (Primal Defense). I take probiotics anyways and decided to give his a try. Again, I haven't been taking them very long and am not feeling well at the moment.

Sorry, I probably haven't been much help, but I do think he does have a very interesting story and diet theory.


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## Piatchi (Feb 5, 2011)

Jaycee, 

Your reply was helpful as could be, definately.  Thats the kind of info I was fishin' for.

Tonight I went to the health food store and saw a lot of expensive stuff. I went there to buy his detoxification clay, his primal defense, structured water, and Kefir. (along with a kefir culture to start my own batch of homemade stuff)

I'll be starting on it tomorrow, and i'll tell everyone what I think of it. Apparently after a couple weeks, we should be feeling a bit better on the program. 

Regardless, the Kefir is pretty good stuff. I'll probably drink it for life, regardless of how this diet goes.


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## Creepy Lurker (Feb 6, 2011)

First place I always stop by when investigating medical people is quackwatch.com.

Anyone with a potentially dodgy background usually pops up here.

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/rubin.html

I especially like this part:



> Rubin's press materials state that he has degrees in naturopathic medicine and nutrition and is certified as a nutritional consultant [4]. However, none of his "credentials" have any legitimate academic or professional standing




As for Primal Defence:
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2006/03/gardenoflife.shtm


> The FTC’s complaint targeted claims about four dietary supplements: Primal Defense, RM-10, Living Multi, and FYI. According to the complaint, the defendants made unsubstantiated advertising claims that:
> 
> Primal Defense treats intractable immune disorders, asthma, irritable bowel syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome, arthritis, lupus, colds, flu, and Crohn’s disease, and reduces users’ blood cholesterol levels;
> 
> ...



To answer the OP's question, I believe that this book will be the same as the last written by these men.  It will be a platform to advertise their unsubstantiated 'miracle cures' and make money by exploiting vulnerable people with illnesses.


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## Piatchi (Feb 6, 2011)

Well, I certainly find that interesting about Jordan.

But im not too surprised. I give the book some credit: Dr. Brasco is a board-certified gastroenterologist. With that said, Rubin probably used him as a shield to hide behind.  Everything that Brasco wrote in the book was of good information, at least I thought. The stuff Rubin wrote, other than his personal story, sounded kinda cooky at times... but again, Brasco's information was research-backed and sound. Brasco also presented his own diet theories and tried to explain them with research.

The only good thing I heard from Rubin in that book was the story of his Crohns. Who knows if it's completely true. Im very cynical about these miracle cure stories. However, at least he claims that he was 6'1, 110 pounds at one point in the hospital, having tried all conventional medications and most naturopathic medications.  Then he starts to swear by these HSO probiotics, structured water, and anti-inflammatory formula. His company sells all three of those.

Dr. Brasco however DOES speak a bit in the book and has some interesting theories about probiotics in dirt in general and how we used to bury our food and ingested the clay and dirt on the food. So, he advises that detox clay and the dirt could have some good benefits.   The book also speaks about Kefir constantly... which honestly, I bought some blueberry and strawberry Lifeway brand Kefir and that stuff is awesome. Like I said in my first post, i'll probably drink that stuff for life anyway, despite the fact the rest of the diet is a sham.

-Trevor


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## GutlessWonder86 (Feb 6, 2011)

I looked up what structured water was as I had no idea what it was and I found this interesting site: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/clusqk.html


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## tpd320 (Feb 7, 2011)

I took Rubins Primal Defense.  Only thing it did for me was cost me money...  I flared a few times while taking it.  Who knows...


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## Queastor (Feb 7, 2011)

I thought Rubin capitalized on religion and the Bible instead of sticking to science and research and I have zero respect for him because of that but that doesn't mean that the diet he followed doesn't work. It isn't his though and the things have been done before.

I'm a follower of the SCD (Specific Carbohydrate diet) and his diet follows it closely with the main difference that it's more restrictive but I'll get onto kefir.

First off Kefir you buy in a store is 100% incapable of colonizing your digestive tract (running out the bad bacteria) because the FDA requires that foods in America don't contain active yeast and the yeast of Kefir cultures is required as a base in order for the bacteria in Kefir to survive in your digestive tract kind of like lichen is a combination of fungus and algae.

Also the stuff your buying is loaded with sugar which is horrible for you and counteracts any good you might be doing with the easily digested portions.

The main advantage of kefir is to turn Lactose which is hard to digest into galactose which is readily absorbed. 

The secondary advantage of course is that it colonizes your system and when it digests food raises the acid level which slows the growth of other bacteria in the region.

Which is why I'm going to try to get a culture again . Last time I tried (ordered one from an australian actually) I failed to get it going. Actually why I just logged on but then I saw your post and had to say something.


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## Nytefyre (Feb 7, 2011)

creepy lurker said:


> to answer the op's question, i believe that this book will be the same as the last written by these men.  It will be a platform to advertise their unsubstantiated 'miracle cures' and make money by exploiting vulnerable people with illnesses.


This!


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## Piatchi (Feb 7, 2011)

> First off Kefir you buy in a store is 100% incapable of colonizing your digestive tract (running out the bad bacteria) because the FDA requires that foods in America don't contain active yeast and the yeast of Kefir cultures is required as a base in order for the bacteria in Kefir to survive in your digestive tract kind of like lichen is a combination of fungus and algae.


Interesting. I did figure the FDA had some restrictions that hampered commercial Kefir. 

Do you have any research about commercial kefir definately not colonizing your digestive tract? How do you know?  I dont mean to come across as rude, im just curious. 
Theres a website with people willing to share their live cultures, most for free or if you pay the shipping costs. Just google   Toronto Advisors.

On that site, I was fortunate to find someone in my hometown that has a batch of Kefir growing herself. I'll try to get homemade kefir culture going after I get a hold of her.


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## LOSTnut (Feb 8, 2011)

After I was diagnosed in '05 a coworker gave me "The Maker's Diet". I did like some of the recipes and tried them although I couldn't tell you if they made a difference or not because back then I was in full remission. 
I just thought the whole thing was a little over the top in terms of how he stressed that they lived so healthy ... well, their life expectancy was pretty much what ... 40, 45? 
And, he lost me when he went on to toothpaste and deodorant, etc. 
Although, I have to admit I do like his Living Multy Women's Formula ... so far the only multi-vitamin that doesn't make me nauseaus. If you have other multi-vitamins that are cheaper I am happy to take suggestions. Usually, it is the iron content that makes me nauseaus.


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## Jordy440 (Jun 26, 2011)

*The Proof is in the Pudding Guys!*

Dear Fans of not feeling like crap and dying young,

In the last couple of years I have lost 200 pounds and cured myself of an auto-amune disease called Sarcoidosis along with asthma and obstructive sleep apnea.  Lets not spend the precious time and energy we have arguing statistics and other numbers that Allopathic crowd just loves to discuss.  You know them right??? They are the guys that proudly sport a failure record on the weight loss front of,... what is it,... somewhere north of 90% failure rate?   (a number both kind and generous).

I played their game for forty years and all it ever did was drain my wallet, my vitality and my quality of life.  It left me sick and dependent on a whole bunch of drugs, all with side effects requiring more drugs to control.

Finally I quit listening to them and listened to my own hart and personal intuition.  It just seems obvious that our bodies respond best to the food we've been eating for the past 4 million years.  (RAW, ORGANIC, PLANT BASED FOOD)  

Why then are we discussing in this forum anything other than how we can bring our habits in to alignment with what is obviously the best way known to produce lasting powerful health?  Why get lost in the rhetoric of the propaganda spread by people trying to separate us from our money at the expense of our health?  It's so simple.  The chemicals and the altered food are ruining the health of all who eat it.

Lets take another look at the way we rationalize eating the FAKE food that have increased shelf life and has been designed around*Profitability* instead of health.  If we just look around we can easily connect *cause*,... (fake food) and *effect*,... (disease)

Don't believe the herd masters.  They lie.  You can feel it in your hart if you will allow it.  You can go a long way toward healing yourself, by just replacing the caustic crap being passed off as food, for food that has not been tampered with to increase profitability.  It's just a return to the obvious.  It will make such a drastic difference that it will amaze you.  You deserve it.

My hart to you all,... best of wishes,

--Jordan Hale  (healthy 200 pounder)


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## rygon (Jun 26, 2011)

Jordy440 said:


> ... It just seems obvious that our bodies respond best to the food we've been eating for the past 4 million years.


and by 4million years you mean 200,000 (estimated age of sapiens sapiens) 

I found this interesting article on Bread, saying that the quick rising loaf could be causing a lot of digestion problems

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13670278


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## wideopenseas (Jul 1, 2011)

my son was a patient in NY Presbyterian Hospital for several weeks because of Crohn's disease- at 5'10" he weighed 85 lbs. His physicians said he was one of the worst cases they had seen. After weeks of steroids, harsh drugs, immune suppressants, etc... I stumbled upon Rubin's book, "Heal Thyself" and started to follow his diet plan for my son (I ate the same things and used the supplements as well even tho I was not ill). The book is certainly full of hype and commercial for Rubin's Garden of Life products but hey, that was 5 years ago and my son is now away in college, totally in remission, doubled his weight +, and never had the surgery the doctors promised him. It may not be the end-all book but I believe it to be VERY worthwhile...sift through the hype and there are some life-saving tidbits.


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## mizgarnet (Jul 1, 2011)

I know Jordan personally.  His story is true.  I have taken many different brands of probiotics- his work the best for me.  The diet works.  I strayed off of it and paid a hefty price.  I am going back on it.  All thru history, those that chose the path less travelled have been judged and ridiculed.  I consulted with an orthomolecular scientist and he totally supports Rubin. I do take other supplements.  Nothing works overnight.  Probiotics alone will not prevent flares.  It takes a multi facet approach.

Wendy


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## outlier (Jul 1, 2011)

I just read Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human it's an interesting argument how we have evolved to eat cooked food, and a mix of foods. Since we have small jaws, one stomach (compared to animals like cows with 4), smaller colons.

I personally liked it because i've been telling my gi that my stomach can only handle soft foods and the author explains that soft foods are much easier to digest. this also makes some people fat, think of how soft most fast food is.


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## Mountaingem (Jul 5, 2011)

No one is persecuting Jordan Ruben, and I hesitate to even give my opinion on here because the last time I did I was harassed by his followers. Patients need facts, not just claims that can only be proven by buying a super expensive line of products. 

I agree a healthful well balanced diet free of processed foods (as much as possible) is a very important component to anyone suffering from an autoimmune disease, and probiotics are very beneficial.

What upsets many people including myself most is the claim that a one size fits all approach "cures" this wide array of diseases, both mental and physical. In my opinion it preys on the desperation of critically ill individuals who will try anything to improve their condition. I've been in that position and is extremely scary, and it disgusts me that there is a whole industry of people who profit from it.

And the topper is the religious aspect for me-did he get a "cure" because God "chose" him? Do the rest of us suffer because we lack faith, either in God or Jordan's diet and supplements?

End of rant.


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## kekemonster101 (Jul 5, 2011)

Its pretty clear to me that jordan rubin is the guy that people follow who want to go the "holistic" route. Its generally this group of people who have a negative attitude toward science and western medicine in general. Ive found whenever someone recommends a garden of life product, its almost guaranteed to be followed by a rant about how big pharma is poisoning the country.

I think his supplements are not based on science and evidence, which is what matters. I do not believe the bible has any answers on how to eat properly. There is this idea that somehow the ancient people who came before us somehow had secrets about health. Just because ideas are old does NOT mean they work. *COUGH*ACUPUNCTURE*COUGH*. 

Life expectancy has gone way up in modern times versus a long time ago. Why do we think that these stone age men knew more then we do? We know a LOT more about nutrition and health now then we did back then.

I've heard all the anecdotes in the world about how "this diet is a miracle" or "this saved me" or "big pharma is poison and this is the only thing that worked", but none of the science shows it works. Sorry. Anecdotes are close to worthless - I can talk to plenty of people who think they've been abducted by aliens. If you want to do the whole "natural living raw food organic only meditation science-is-evil-jesus-cures-all" route, then garden of life is for you. But I think its overpriced nonsense. Hes been discredited everywhere, has no credentials, and his anecdote about being "cured" doesn't impress me in the least. I think people get taken advantage of and buy his products. 

Summary: My opinion is less then favorable of Jordan Rubin and his bible diet.


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## vonfunk (Jul 6, 2011)

Charlatan.
Anyone who sells a "cure" for anything is a scam artist.


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## Piatchi (Jul 6, 2011)

I pretty much agree with everything kekemonster101 said in his post.

I agree--- the ancients used to bleed people for all sorts of ailments. Got diarrhea? Lets cut you and let you bleed out a pint. Got the flu? Lets dance around a fire and burn incense. There are countless examples of the ancients being beyond stupid about all sorts of things, medicine included. Humankind has gotten much smarter, thankfully. 

But I also agree that doctors can sometimes be fancy versions of a pill dispenser. That doesn't make naturopathic doctors any better though. I'd say a good portion of N.MDs are preaching crazy stuff that doesn't work and giving out miracle meds that are not much more than a placebo. 

Modern medicine has its flaws, but I believe that naturopathic medication has many many more of them. I would love nothing more than to cure Crohn's without medications and just sticking to a diet, but I was on a very restrictive diet and it just didn't matter.  I got a Remicade infusion and I went into remission extremely quickly. 

I read the Guts and Glory book (it's been months now) and Dr. Brasco the gastroenterologist (coauthor of the book) had some interesting things written. However, I didnt really enjoy Rubin's portions of the book, as they were rooted more in mysticism than science.


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## handle (Jul 6, 2011)

There is a lot of room for dodgy practitioners in the field of complementary medicine. However it is unnecessary to 'throw out the baby with the bath water.' There are many excellent practitioners out there with a sound knowledge of both modern western medicine and the more traditional eastern treatment methods. It is a shame that people seek to write off all complementary forms of medicine when a charlatan is discovered! 
 For one, Acupuncture treatment has undergone thousands of clinical and experimental studies and found to be highly beneficial in many cases. It is widely used for its regulatory effects, analgesic properties, and definitive biochemical alterations - all carefully and demonstrably articulated in scientific and medical papers. Modern Chinese hospitals combine therapies as part of their normal procedure. They are not treatment modalities from the stone age, but rather treatments which evolved (and continue to evolve) in recent history, from some of the brightest minds ever to have existed. 
There is no need to broadly dismiss all non-western modalities - to do so limits the available opportunities for assistance. (It was only a few decades back that psychiatrists, chiropractors, and osteopths were considered to be practitioners of 'black magic.')
Yes, charlatans are all about us.
Take care.


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## Piatchi (Jul 6, 2011)

Im not attacking acupuncture in its entirety, but I haven't heard of it putting anyone with Crohn's into remission. 

I didn't mean to come across as saying naturopathic doctors are all shams. I did get to listen to a naturopathic doctor speak at a local meeting, and this particular one was preaching some truly nutty stuff. I think anyone following her advice wouldn't have improved any of their ailments. In my opinion, most of what the N.MD was saying would be advice for people that were overall quite healthy and wanted to feel good about themselves (eating a flower native to the area because it improves brain function?) but not for anyone that actually has a health problem.


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## handle (Jul 6, 2011)

You misunderstand the term complementary medicine. There are a tremendous number of modalities involved, naturopaths are only a tiny minority.
The mainstream practitioners of complementary medicine are appalled by all the sham artists that blacken their work.
As someone who has benefited greatly from Acupuncture (one of the most scientifically studied fields of all complementary modalities) I find it a shame that people with little knowledge or experience tar not only Acupuncture, but the whole field of complementary medicine in one fell swoop! 
Yes there are a great many scam artists and misguided people with wild and fanciful ideas, calling themselves alternative practitioners, that need to be avoided like the plague. 
And there are some really bad western doctors to be similarly avoided. It is truly a minefield to negotiate, however that is no reason to broadly rubbish the whole field.


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## kekemonster101 (Jul 6, 2011)

handle said:


> As someone who has benefited greatly from Acupuncture (one of the most scientifically studied fields of all complementary modalities).


I disagree here. Ive done a lot research into things like acupuncture and all I have found is inconclusive research studies. Most often it performed no better then placebo. In fact, I remember one study where it found sham acupuncture (using toothpicks) was MORE effective then the real thing, and also it has been shown to be equally effective as "random" acupuncture, placing the needles in random locations as opposed to the "chi meridians" they are supposed to be placed in. 

I would love to see any well controlled studies that show acupuncture was significantly better then placebo - I dont think there are many. (None?)


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## vonfunk (Jul 6, 2011)

Okay.
So allow me to get things back on track.  This thread is specifically regarding the discussion of Jordan Rubin.  This is not to debate, promote or or condemn the use of complementary or non-traditional medicine.

With the exception of surgery all medicine has its roots in some sort of what is considered "alternative" medicine. Aspirin is derived from willow bark and pine needles were used by native Americans for years to combat scurvy.

Complementary medicine has a place in society and treatment, it might not work for everyone, some of it is outright bogus, and some potentially dangerous. As far as natural remedies go the compounds found in plants may not be strong enough as the equivalent in pill format. Keep in mind we should not be using the term "modern medicine" but "Western medicine".  
The reasoning behind why a medical issue exists may not be accurate, but often the treatment works on an actual level and not placebo.

With that said, I still stand behind my original statement that Rubin is a charlatan preying on the the sick.


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## handle (Jul 6, 2011)

There are a vast number of studies, many undertaken recently, on Acupuncture and they are conclusive about it being far more than placebo! It is a recognised treatment even in mainstream medicine these days - though they do limit it to certain areas. As I mentioned, it is routinely used in modern hospitals all over China - and greatly valued.
You can take a look at 'The Vital Meridian' by Alan Bensoussan one day - very informative and thorough - so many world class studies. The ideas behind it are admittedly 'foreign' and hard to grasp for most people brought up with no knowledge of the systems involved.
Think of the many studies that show that very premature babies who are held and touched survive far more often than those treated only medically. No science has yet determined why this is so.
Hey good luck to you kekemonster (great name.)
You are clearly a very clever young guy. I was even more cynical about these things at your age, coming from a house full of physicists and doctors, and me being an engineer. Keep learning! Don't write off everything that isn't western medicine based, some of it is priceless knowledge - and yes, some of it is hokey pokey I'm afraid.


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## handle (Jul 6, 2011)

Hey Vonfunk - your post went in as I submitted mine. Yes we have expanded on the original post!
I have nothing nice to say about Rubin's confusing and often dubious work, my point being not to let charlatans wreck the good work out there..


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## vonfunk (Jul 6, 2011)

handle - I understand, the post I made wasn't directed towards anyone in particular it was just a blanket statement as arguing had popped up.


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## handle (Jul 6, 2011)

healthy discussion I hope!


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## kekemonster101 (Jul 6, 2011)

Most definitely. We all want the same thing. We all want to be healthy and to feel good. And I really do see the appeal of going the holistic route. The idea of living in the forest and gathering medicine and natural foods sounds like a really peaceful lifestyle that I would genuinely like to live. Honest. (Not saying that anyone else does) 

I think the only choice I have is to go with evidence based medicine which isnt generally "natural" and such. I think of myself as a skeptic and I think thats the most rational way to live. It gives good results the largest percentage of the time. If im presented with good evidence for something, there is no reason I wont accept it or at least investigate.

I think the earth has provided us with a lot of medicines, and will continue to do so. But I think where we all can agree is that that are people out there to take your money in any field. Whether you buy into this stuff or not I think we should always have a goal of outting these scam artists and money grubbers. Even IF this Jordan Rubin believed his products had the potential to CURE people, why are they so expensive and overpriced? If I had a CURE I would give it out for free and win a nobel prize. 

I certainly have no grudge or hard feelings against anything natural or those who practice such methods. All anyone wants is to live their life, uninterrupted by sickness and disease. But I will continue to challenge both people and their views, especially when I feel its morally just to do so. Its part of my obligation as a human being, as is anyone elses. We just have to try our best to be correct. Thats all.


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## handle (Jul 6, 2011)

Well said. Remember to challenge your own views too... they will undoubtedly evolve somewhat with time.
all the best.


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## kekemonster101 (Jul 6, 2011)

Anyway, back on the topic of jordan rubin actually, my mom went to vitamin shoppe about a month ago, and she was talking with the employee there and I think mentioned I had crohns disease. The employee gave my mom this small book, which basically SEEMED like a real book with a price tag on it and everything but it was just basically a summary of Jordan's story and an advertisement for all of his products. I found it interesting that now he's got some deal with this store where they strategically give out these books to certain people? And its even got a price on the back and an ISBN number as if they are doing you a favor and giving you a free book because they care.


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## Piatchi (Jul 6, 2011)

I do understand the term complimentary medicine, and you're right, naturopathic medicine is only a small minority. Therefore, Im not aware of every single conceivable complementary medicine that exists. I'm not dismissing all of them in one fell swoop, because im not educated about them all. 

I wouldn't spend money on acupuncture because it hasn't been shown, in medical studies, to help a Crohn's flare. I suppose if I was stressed or something, acupuncture might help, though. Im not dismissing it entirely, but please dont try to tell me that getting poked with needles is going to slow the growth of a cancerous tumor or put someone with Crohn's into remission.


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## handle (Jul 6, 2011)

Complementary means combining in a way to enhance each other's qualities. You guys are young and inexperienced and making judgements about things you don't really understand, haven't properly researched, and perhaps are not ready to see.
Good luck - I sincerely wish you well.


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## vonfunk (Jul 6, 2011)

handle said:


> You guys are young and inexperienced and making judgements about things you don't really understand, haven't properly researched, and perhaps are not ready to see.


Age has nothing to do with the amount of research that someone does into controlling their disease. I'm not sure what age group you deem fit enough to make an informed decision, but I find that statement to be quite offensive.


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## Piatchi (Jul 6, 2011)

> You guys are young and inexperienced and making judgements about things you don't really understand, haven't properly researched, and perhaps are not ready to see.


lolwut? 


Seriously though, if you think age is a factor in the quality of research a person can do, I would wager to say that your thinking is quite a bit skewed. Which could indicate you have skewed opinions about other things as well...


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## handle (Jul 6, 2011)

I did not say that age had anything to do with the amount of research done, nor the relative fitness to make informed decisions. You have skewed my response.
  I found it offensive that it was inferred that I said "getting poked with needles is going to slow the growth of a cancerous tumour.."  I stand by my remarks which are neither offensive nor incorrect - he is young (in his thinking - and that is not a criticism), poorly researched (clearly), and lacking experience (in acupuncture treatment.)


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## rygon (Jul 7, 2011)

The problem being it was a personal attack at someone. People have different views on things. I doubt any medication is clearly black or white, with everything having positive and negative effects (or non at all)

Placebos have nothing in them at all to help people, yet have been shown to work, and yet are prescribed by doctors. Is this any different to other alternative medicines?


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## handle (Jul 7, 2011)

I care deeply for all the people on this site which is self evident in all my posts. And to answer your question Rygon, Acupuncture is in a league of its own. 
I worked for a year with the head of the School of Nursing and Health Studies at a major University. He was also a member of the College of Traditional Chinese Medicine. In part return for my services (I was asked to build some equipment to measure skin resistance and electrical conductivity for the purposes of research studies of Acupuncture) he gave me treatments for my Crohns Disease - even though I was skeptical. The studies that have been done are numerous, and the number of reviewed research papers are vast - this is far from any placebo effect - I can testify personally to the results.
If you want to write off fields of alternative medicine could it not be done from a position some basic knowledge or personal experience, rather than naive cynicism alone?
Recall that this thread started with the poster being quite positive about some aspects of Rubin's work, before degenerating into a sort of bar room rubbishing competition.
I apologise for any offence taken by my remarks as they were not intended that way. My intentions have been made quite clear.


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## rygon (Jul 7, 2011)

I think unfortunately, there has been some good research about other approaches, yet have not been taken on by major companies (ie NHS). So what we hear odesnt have the creditials/research it deserves. Also, being the age of the internet, theres a lot of people who will take some of this information and use it for their own greed, rather than helping others (not saying that Rubin or Brasco are like that)


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## handle (Jul 7, 2011)

Yes that's true. A lot of information does not get out there, and some that shouldn't be out there becomes popular! I think that is to be expected in a world full of people competing for everything, including attention. It really isn't an easy task to discern the fact from the fiction and does take a fair bit of care. I do believe the truth eventually appears...though not always in a timely manner....


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## organic4life (Oct 5, 2011)

*Organic Living*

I have been troubled with sinus issues that have caused me a lot of pain and eventually led to a endoscopic sinus surgery. The ultiple rounds of antibiotics essentially wiped my flora clean and left me with a fungal infection in my intestines. 

It is through the use of antifungals and the eating principles coveted by Jordan Rubin and Doug Kauffman that I have been able to cure myself. 

At one point in time the infection went to my lungs and I was eventually diagnosed with bronchiectasis (damage lungs, scar tissue) and was sentenced to the use of amoxicillin every day of my life. I knew the damage that this would cause long term so completely avoided them regardless of what my pulmonologist said.

I decided I had to make a change and did. I completely revamped my diet and stopped eating the crap that big industry wants us to eat and started eating a gods diet. It is with these principles that I am now free of this infectious fungus and now am a huge proponent of Jordan's word. If you are looking for some help eating organically I would like to help you and Jordans mission of changing our diets.


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## rosewrite (Oct 25, 2011)

I followed Rubin's guts and glory program to the letter except for one element, which I will describe in a moment. It put my crohn's in remission (I was not on any medication and when I started I had severe diarrehea and some pain). I should mention that for 3 months before I started I was on Entocort, but was off it for about 2 weeks before I started guts and glory and still had many symptoms. The one element I could not follow was the goat's milk yogurt. I am severely lactose intolerant and I mean severe so it wasn't an option for me. I still had success though. But...I went off the diet too soon and returned to my old eating habits in a big way and had a major flare a few months ago that I just recently got under control. I tried to go back on his program again but couldn't do it. I just didn't seem to have the willpower this time. Instead, I did my own modified version and have finally got rid of the severe abdominal pain, although the d persists. I think it's worth a try as I feel it did give me relief. My only concern about it is this: His probiotics are radically different than all the other probiotics out there. They are developed in soil organisms and there are some who feel there is not enough research on them and that there is no question that they help many people, but this is an issue. In fact, this is an issue with many alternative approaches (as well as mainstream meds). Many have not been studied so there is always a risk. I am also a diabetic and went on a new FDA drug approved several years ago and just read that it may cause pancreatitis and pancreatic cancer so it's not just the alternatives. All the Best to everyone - this is not an easy road.


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## kekemonster101 (Oct 25, 2011)

rosewrite said:


> I am also a diabetic and went on a new FDA drug approved several years ago and just read that it may cause pancreatitis and pancreatic cancer so it's not just the alternatives. All the Best to everyone - this is not an easy road.


I just read that drinking contaminated water may cause cholera, dysentry, giardia, and botulism! No more water for me.

I also just read tripping over rocks can cause you to fall down. I've decided to cut out walking completely. Its all a conspiracy anyways, they WANT you to fall down on those things. Big boulder is not out for your best interests.


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## rosewrite (Oct 25, 2011)

*Unhelpful Response*

I don't think your response to my post was very helpful. You are clearly an extremist. You seem to be rejecting anything that is not mainstream medicine in much the same way that others reject everything that is not alternative. Is that helpful to you and to the many others looking for information on this blog? I don't think so. I think we all need to approach medicines, alternative or not, with some degree of skepticism. Yes, many western medicines have the advantage of extensive studies and we should not ignore those findings or the fact that many alternative approaches have not had the benefit of scientific study. In fact, that was my point. Jordan Rubin's approach worked for me until I started eating the wrong things, but I do wonder about the longterm impact of primal defense given that it is developed in a new way compared to other probiotics. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post, but it just seems like you are being as closed minded as the other side, and, given how little we understand about Crohn's and how to control it, let alone cure it, how can that be a helpful attitude???


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## kekemonster101 (Oct 25, 2011)

I am not an "extremist" just because I require evidence for things. It is not closed minded to require evidence for any kind of treatment. If there is no research that supports these products, then its just as valid to eat sand off the beach - they both have the same amount of evidence supporting their efficacy (none). If I said you were closed minded for not eating sand to cure your condition, would you agree? Its irrational to think something works just because someone claims it does. Until there is actual evidence supporting their claims, theres no reason to buy their products. Anecdotes are unhelpful as well. If you read clinical trials, often 30%+ of the people on a placebo will say they feel better. 

How do you even know it was his magic diet that made you feel well? You mentioned at the same time you cut out bad foods you were eating. It could have been that. Whatever you were doing at the time would get credit. Maybe it was your new hairspray being absorbed through the scalp and modulating your immune response. Who knows? Clearly it wasnt very effective, since you relapsed, but then you make excuses for the magic diet saying it was your fault, that you ate something wrong. 

Something having lots of scientific study behind it is not a "benefit". It is the MINIMUM. It is the most basic requirement in order to have any validity. Without it, you mind as well be eating sand.


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## rosewrite (Oct 25, 2011)

Look, show me a large-scale study of nutrition/supplement based approaches to either putting crohn's into remission or curing it, and I will jump for joy. If they do exist, they are small scale and few and far between. Believe me, I would love some scientific study of the methods I have been trying (not just Jordan Rubin's approach, but SCD, GAPS, and other similar approaches). But given that there are none, I personally have chosen to take into consideration the anectdotal evidence on blogs, in books, and in talking to people who have achieved long-term remission. I am being as "scientific" as I can given the lack of resarch. And I am seeing results - less to no D, and no abdominal pain (without medication). Will it work for everyone? Probably not. It requires enormous self discipline and sustainability is questionable, but it's worth a try, particularly given the medications available. Having said all that...I should also say that doctors who say that "diet doesn't matter" or who recommend "low residue" are also basing their advice on NO SCIENCE and should be equally chastized. What I see in common with all these diets is the following pattern:
1. A period of bowel rest (either by drinking supplements or more typically broths cooked over long periods of time until the meats and vegies are predigested). This "resting" period varies depending on severity. I have found that a full 2 weeks is necessary, and sometimes longer. 
2. An introduction, slowly but steadily, of high quality, broad spectrum probiotics.
3. An elimination of all starches and lactose containing foods - as well as processed sugar - for a fairly long period (anywhere from 9 months to 2 years). This is the hardest part. 
Anyway, I am going for it and so far it's working for me. The question is whether I can sustain it and it ain't easy!


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## Crohn's 35 (Oct 25, 2011)

Hopefully this thread will calm down, this is a forum to help people and give their insights.  NO one thing is right or wrong.  Please be kind to each other.


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## rosewrite (Oct 25, 2011)

Agreed. Let's end the bickering and agree to disagree. Someone asked about Jordan Rubin's approach and all I can say is that I tried it and it worked for me for a while and then when I went off the diet I got sick again. All the best....


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## organic4life (Oct 25, 2011)

Hello Rose,

I am glad that you have benefitted from eating natural foods, after all they are what we are intended to consume. Jordan's approach to diet is not his own, the approach is biblical and is what most of our ancestors ate. Genetically modified foods, artificial ingredients which are basically chemicals were not nor never will be intended for consumption regardless of any FDA or any other organizations approval to be consumed by humans. The weight epidemis, the disease epidemic are all born out of big industry creating products that essentially do not become stale for years at a time on a store shelf....The very items in these products that make them last forever are toxic in your digestive system. None of us have absolutely become sick over one night of unhealthy eating habits....most of us have been doing undetectable damage to our bodies for years until one day we develop issues that have manifested into a categorical disease classified by science. Your experience reversed itself when you began your quest to follow gods diet. When you stopped the diet you felt you were better and now you could go back to what you were doing....when in fact you found out the opposite to be true. Do not eat refined sugars, our bodies do nothing with refined sugars as their is absolutely nothing that they can do with it except breed fungus in our digestive tract. Fungus lives on sugars. Fungus creates health issues which you have experienced.

I would love to help enable you with the ability to eat better more simply. And I would love to help kekemonster receive the worlds best water delivered right to their front door. I am doing it and it is fantastic! Who are we to deny our bodies what they need for good health?

I hope that you feel comfortable and will reach out to me for help, or anyone else for that matter. I am not a doctor however I am a believer and trust that our creator knew exactly what he was doing when he cultivated the earth with the foods we need for good health. 
God bless all of you -


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## kekemonster101 (Oct 26, 2011)

No thanks, you dont need to help me have any water sent to my front door. I get water from the grocery store, and it seems to serve me just fine.


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## rosewrite (Oct 26, 2011)

No thanks. I am good too on the water front.


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## sararay (Oct 31, 2011)

From my experience, I think the right diet can make a big difference in the overall treatment of Crohns (since we are dealing with the digestive system) in combination with meds. I managed to stay in remission for 7 years with the SCD and taking probiotics without prescription medications (it was a risk, and I don't recommend it, but there is something to be said about the proper diet). The only thing I got out of Jordan Rubin's book is that whole foods can be healing and what we eat does affect our disease. I don't believe most people should be eating Modulen and Ensure because they contain a lot of sugar which is inflammatory and it feeds pathogens like candida and harmful bacteria. I believe that finding what foods each of us is sensitive to is very beneficial. 

"Restoring Your Digestive Health" discusses how to do an elimination diet, which can be very beneficial as an inexpensive way to figure out what foods you are sensitive to. I really like the healing vegetable soup recipe and it really helped me when I had flare-ups before. It has a lot of foods that are nourishing in combination and anti-inflammatory. 

After 7 years of remission the only symptom I have is a fistula which unfortunately I have to have operated on because it goes to my bladder but since basically following the  SBD I have not had constipation or diarrhea, cramps or pain. Even with this fistula I still don't have any symptoms (we only discovered it because I had recurring bladder infections) even though I am considered to be in a "flare-up" right now. I do believe my diet helps control inflammation and therefore pain.

My plan for the future is a combination of diet and maintenance meds to control the disease and be around for a long time for my family. Diet should not be discounted, but even when you feel better with a diet don't stop taking your meds because Crohns does not go away. It snuck back up on me after years and even without symptoms.

As far as the Garden of Life products go, I did use his probiotics for two years while I was healing. I stopped having chronic sinus infections after taking his products. However, I think the Body Ecology probiotic products are much more reasonably priced also because you can make your own with the starters and I feel a difference a lot faster. They help more with my digestion as well as re-establishing intestinal flora after having to take antibiotics. I think Jordan Rubin does believe what he is teaching, but there are so many factors that affect this disease that we cannot all take for granted that a supplement or diet can be a cure for us even if it was for someone else.


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## rosewrite (Oct 31, 2011)

*Thanks*

so much for the response to my post. I too am now following SCD, along with some insights from GAPs, taking probiotics, etc. I hear what you are saying re: medications and not completely discounting them. I do wonder about the risk of "low-level" inflammation, which I also think I have at the moment (no real pain, but just don't feel 100%). If you feel comfortable sharing, I would love to know what medications you are taking. It's so unique for each person, but it's helpful to know. Also, are you able to tolerate dairy? I have been unable to tolerate any of the recommended yogurts on any of these diets. 
Thanks!
P.S. As for Rubin...his was the first book I got that advocated diet as a possible way of putting the disease into remission. I later read about SCD and then more recently GAPS. I think his value add is that he advocates some supplementation that goes beyond GAPs and he advocates a slightly healthier diet than GAPS. He is a little less restrictive on the carb front as well. I am less sure about his supplements than I used to be as they are produced from HSOs and that is fairly unconventional. Anyway, I think that each program has information to offer and given the lack of dietary information re: crohn's I think it's worth reading.


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## sararay (Oct 31, 2011)

Right now I am mostly grain-free. I do not tolerate milk, but after avoiding all dairy for two years, during the beginning of my probiotic therapy I now can tolerate limited amounts of cheeses that are aged more than 10 months (hard cheeses), butter and yogurt. You might try coconut yogurt. Body Ecology has a drink called cocobiotic that is fermented coconut water and it is my favorite. So Delicious brand has coconut yogurt.

I take Ferrum Phos when I have inflammation. It is a homeopathic iron supplement prescribed by a naturopath. I was off of all prescription meds until 3 months ago. Now I am on prednizone 10mg, 6-mp and asacol.


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## rosewrite (Oct 31, 2011)

I will check out the cocobiotic. I had some homemade coconut yogurt in Key West - it was full of great probiotics and I felt wonderful. I tried to make it at home but it was a disaster and after three batches I gave up. Good to know re: dairy. Something to look forward to..maybe. Thanks for the info. re: meds. One last question. How long were starch/sugar/grain free?


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## sararay (Oct 31, 2011)

I have been gluten-free for 8+ years, low-carbohydrate for most of those years. I eliminated all gluten grains and ate the gluten-free ones quite sparingly for the last 6 years and I am trying to go completely grain-free. I feel amazing on a paleo-ish diet. It takes a couple of weeks of eating that way to get to feeling amazing, though. Being on prednizone makes it especially hard because of the crazy food cravings and hunger pangs that I don't have normally when eating low-carb. I haven't been on prednizone for many years and just back on it recently. I can't wait to get off of it again.


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## Phoenix (Nov 6, 2011)

Not to discredit anyone or take a side, I am reading the book about Guts and Glory Program right now just because I want to see every possible direction I can take my life and hopefully make things better. But the quackwatch thing I don't necessarily pay much mind to because it's an FDA suit and I completely LOATHE the FDA and their stupid rules and stipulations about what "they" think is right.. considering half the crap we have in America that's approved by them is probably laughable and a joke to most other healthier countries. I'm not here to rant though, I just find it odd that my GI Doctor had the nerve to tell me these exact words. I asked him "Can I alter my diet and possibly help this problem go away or into remission?" And he responded "Your diet has no effect on Crohn's, you have to take your medication." That upset me and made me lose quite a bit of faith in him as a physician, much less a GI specialist.


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## kiny (Nov 6, 2011)

Phoenix said:


> I asked him "Can I alter my diet and possibly help this problem go away or into remission?" And he responded "Your diet has no effect on Crohn's, you have to take your medication." That upset me and made me lose quite a bit of faith in him as a physician, much less a GI specialist.


I get you, that's what a lot of docs would say too. But keep in mind that they deal with people who don't take their meds and then come into ER a few years later (I would be one of those idiots). They likely realise that diet is a factor, they just don't want you to go off meds and that's kinda understandable, you are their responsability and they don't like people taking chances.

I have changed my mind slightly on the issue, I think normal foods do very little, but supplements, like vitamin D, a lot of herbs I use that a very powerful antiinflammation alternatives, likely do do something. Probiotics, meh, maybe, I take them but I'm not sure.


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## Phoenix (Nov 6, 2011)

Kiny, I agree with that as well, I'm simply leery about certain doctors and the meds they push at people and even with side-effects he was almost like.. there's no other choice of meds. It's hard to explain. He came at me like Pentasa is useless and a bandaid and Cimzia will be some kind of miracle suture or something, even though Cimzia like one of the most expensive products, am I wrong? It's just a little weird sometimes, I furthered the discussion by saying "Okay, I will take my meds.. but can I eat anything that will help further?" and he seemed kind of put out like Darth Vader about to tell me that my lack of faith disturbs him.. faith in meds, I suppose.


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## kiny (Nov 6, 2011)

Well, wouldn't be the first time a doctor was swayed to one or the other side by the billion dollar medical industry so be careful I guess, if he's doesn't even want to listen to alternatives it's no good either. My doc listens, he might tell me I'm an idiot if I'm wrong, but he still listens. He got me to change a colonoscopy into an MRI because I started crying a while back because I said I couldn't deal with the pain again, he got me a doctor who knows about diets because I said I was interested, but he still supports me. I think docs should be firm, but open for suggestions.


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