# Anybody think gluten free works?



## Rissssssaahhhhh (Mar 30, 2014)

I have a few friends who no longer eat gluten because they want to or have celiacs etc. Does anyone with crohns religiously eat GF? I've heard good things about it and many crohnies say it helps with their symptoms. The more I go to the grocery store the more I see GF stuff and was considering paying the extra money if it'll work! What do you guys eat?


----------



## Essieluv (Mar 30, 2014)

Personally, and this is just me, gluten free did not help me at all. It was much more expensive, I lost more weight, and since it didn't seem to help I have discontinued it (yay carbs). However, I know that many Crohnies eat gluten free and it is beneficial for them. It really is so individual, I think you would have to try it and see.


----------



## vonfunk (Mar 30, 2014)

The problem is if you stop eating it, and gluten isn't a trigger, your body will stop producing the enzyme it needs to process it. You will be reading the labels and eating food that has less garbage in it. As such you will be eating a better quality of food, and you will be and feel healthier. Then down the road, you'll eat gluten, and feel terrible possibly get sick because your body can no longer digest it. Then you'll blame gluten even though you created the intolerance. 

With that said...

I've never had any issues with it, however my old freeloader had CD and gluten was one of her major triggers, within an hour of her eating it she would start bloating, as such we just made the house gluten free. it was just easier. 

It is only hard and expensive if you try to replace things that are traditionally made using wheat with a GF product (bread, cookies etc). Decide you hate sandwiches and things get so much easier.

The main thing is label reading. If you've grown up eating gluten, most gluten free store baked good are terrible and over priced. If you just decide to eliminate store bought treats, it will be easier.

Switch your starches to rice and potatoes. Be careful of soy sauce, the standard brands have wheat (check the label of cheap store brands, often they're safe. Tamari is a GF brand, and tasty). GF pasta has gotten better over the years, it holds the shape and almost tastes the same. Polenta is easy to learn how to make and can be very versatile.

Eating out can be difficult, contamination can and will happen. Learn to like nachos if you head out to bars. 98% hard alcohol is GF (including whiskey), the occasionally you'll find a small batch bourbon that will put a portion of the mash into the barrels when ageing, but it's rare


----------



## ronroush7 (Mar 30, 2014)

I am gluten free.  It is expensive.  I think my symptoms could be worse if I wasn't gluten free.  Fortunately, my wife doesn't have Crohn's Disease but she does have acid reflux.  Tonight, she ate some bread with gluten and now she is bloated.

 2


----------



## dave13 (Mar 30, 2014)

I have been GF for four months,since my resection.I feel good.It is second nature to me now.It takes some dedication...what associated with CD doesn't?

I rarely eat out so I don't have to deal with that aspect.Good luck.


----------



## hugh (Mar 31, 2014)

Going gluten free is great for many but there is a lot of "gluten free" food that is garbage.
Swapping Gluten for some other over-processed (and over-priced) shit may only lead to small benefits,
Replacing gluten grains with 'safe' starches (sweet potatoes, taro, probably white rice too) should provide better results.
Less sugar and seed oils may help too, - in other words paleo, "not very-low carb paleo", just real food paleo


----------



## valleysangel92 (Mar 31, 2014)

Hi there,  

I am gluten free because I have coeliac,  so for me it's not about crohns at all so I can't comment on its effectiveness for that.


If you do decide to try gluten free then I have some tips that you might find helpful 

- At first,  you could try going gluten free for just a short period and then slowly re-introduce gluten containing food and keep a symptom diary so that you can see if it's making much of a difference.

- If at any point you want to be tested for coeliac or gluten intolerance then you need to be eating gluten regularly,  but if you feel noticeably better without it you might decide that you don't want to get tested.  

- Yes gluten free is expensive, so if it's just a trial period then focus on finding alternatives rather than replacements.  

-If you decide to do it long term,  then you might want to try making more bread and cakes etc yourself instead of paying the excess in the store.  Things like rice flour and corn flour can be used in place of traditional flour and there are gluten free flour mixes available which are aimed at specific tasks (e.g. Bread mixes ) .

- Eating out can be tricky at first,  but you may find that you are ok with tiny amounts of gluten,  so cross contamination may not be a problem for you.  If you find cross contamination is an issue for you,  then yes that can be harder,  but it becomes second nature once you know what to ask.  Awareness is rising and generally places are becoming much more accommodating.


----------



## dave13 (Mar 31, 2014)

hugh said:


> Going gluten free is great for many but there is a lot of "gluten free" food that is garbage.
> Swapping Gluten for some other over-processed (and over-priced) shit may only lead to small benefits,
> Replacing gluten grains with 'safe' starches (sweet potatoes, taro, probably white rice too) should provide better results.
> Less sugar and seed oils may help too, - in other words paleo, "not very-low carb paleo", just real food paleo


Great point...a lot of GF baked products you buy in the store use white rice flour and are way too sweet.It is just GF junk food.I'm just getting into baking GF.It takes some trial and error.There are loads of great resources out there.

If someone is interested in GF I would recommend going to a book store(if there are any left)and browsing.A local natural food store should have a good book section.I work in a natural food store and we encourage people to check out the books and ask questions.


----------



## VeganOstomy (Mar 31, 2014)

Removing gluten from your diet is only recommended if you have celiac disease or you've been tested sensitive to it. 

For the remaining 98% of the population, removing gluten from the diet _negatively _impacts our gut microbes , and possibly our immune system: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19445821 and it removes a valuable source of protein form the diet. 

As hugh suggests, use caution when replacing foods.  Replacing gluten-containing bread which uses whole grain flour, yeast, water, salt with a processed gluten-free version containing preservatives, artificial colors, and a dozen other questionable ingredients, may do more harm than good.


----------



## lbligh (Mar 31, 2014)

We had reason to think wheat was bothering our daughter and making her Crohn's symptoms worse, so we were gluten free for a few months and used a lot of other flours, such as tapioca and rice. She still wasn't getting better, so we tried the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, and within days her symptoms were gone.

Because we had been gluten-free already, it probably made our transition to SCD easier!


----------



## dave13 (Apr 1, 2014)

lbligh said:


> We had reason to think wheat was bothering our daughter and making her Crohn's symptoms worse, so we were gluten free for a few months and used a lot of other flours, such as tapioca and rice. She still wasn't getting better, so we tried the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, and within days her symptoms were gone.
> 
> Because we had been gluten-free already, it probably made our transition to SCD easier!


SCD sounds quite similar to what I do now.


----------



## LodgeLady (Apr 1, 2014)

GF has helped me tremendously. I cheat every now and then, but too much too soon and I notice a difference. Whether it be Crohn's, acid/bile reflux, allergies or sensitivities, going GF helps me to stay eating the healthier foods ( low fat, lactose free, GF).


----------



## hugh (Apr 3, 2014)

Gluten free is such a broad term. I'm gluten free (was paleo but now eat rice) but i wouldn't touch commercial gluten free products. If you replace gluten with the myriad of GF products available you may improve by avoiding gluten but the things you are replacing it with are not foods, they are, at best, 'food-like products'.
There is a huge difference between replacing bread with sweet potato or rice crackers (ingredients- sweet potato or rice) and replacing bread with gluten free bread substitute (check the label for ingredients), same for cookies and cakes.
I don't call it gluten free food, I call it gluten replacement food (an apple is gluten free)

Sorry VO, I'm not having a go at you, just had to point out that the study doesn't show anything like what has been claimed by numerous science journalists....


VeganOstomy said:


> For the remaining 98% of the population, removing gluten from the diet _negatively _impacts our gut microbes , and possibly our immune system: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19445821 and it removes a valuable source of protein form the diet.
> .


This study tells us only one thing, 
Replacing gluten foods for gluten free 'equivalents' [1] leads to a negative change in gut bacteria.
Lets get it straight, people,,,,,,
This study demonstrates that replacing 'normal' gluten containing foods with highly processed GF foods has a 'negative'[2] effect on gut bacteria.
Since GF foods are so highly processed this result is not that uprising, these replacement foods contain significantly less fibre[3], that is,* less food for bacteria.*
This alone may explain the results....

_"The main outcome of the study is that *just switching to processed gluten-free bread and cakes is not as going to improve your gut flora*."_
It does not in any way, shape or form, make a case for gluten to be a part of your diet.
A diet without wheat but with 'safe' (paleo) polysaccharides would not cause a shift in bacteria that could be considered 'adverse'

vaguely relevant links...... the first one is a good start
a podcast.....
Rob Wolf talking to Dr. William Davis
http://robbwolf.com/2014/02/04/episode-95-dr-william-davis/
Pioneering Researcher Alessio Fasano M.D. on Gluten, Autoimmunity & Leaky Gut
http://chriskresser.com/pioneering-researcher-alessio-fasano-m-d-on-gluten-autoimmunity-leaky-gut
and a video...... (only moments of relativity, mostly about celiac but alot about gluten sensitivity, 38.30 introduces the part that the microbiome plays in our health and wellbeing, and 44.30 talks about GF diets and gluten sensitivity)
Alessio Fasano - Spectrum of Gluten-Related Disorders: People Shall Not Live by Bread Alone 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvfTV57iPUY




[1]_ "Subjects were submitted to a GFD by replacing gluten-containing foods by *equivalent ones certified as gluten-free *"_
http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/15885/1/BJN-GFD.pdf
[2] everybody remained healthy, the balance of bacteria shifted in a way that was considered to be adverse
_"The adult human subjects included in the study, 80%female (8/10) and 20% male (2/10), *maintained a good health status during the intervention*, and followed a conventional diet without any restriction except for gluten containing products. "_
http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/15885/1/BJN-GFD.pdf
[3] _No significant differences in dietary intake were found in energy and macronutrients as a result of the GFD* except for significant reductions* (P=0.001) *in polysaccharide intake.* _
http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/15885/1/BJN-GFD.pdf


----------



## VeganOstomy (Apr 3, 2014)

hugh said:


> Lets get it straight people,,,,,,
> This study demonstrates that replacing 'normal' gluten containing foods with highly processed GF foods has a 'negative'[2] effect on gut bacteria.
> Since GF foods are so highly processed this result is not that uprising, these replacement foods contain significantly less fibre[3], that is,* less food for bacteria.*
> This alone may explain the results....


Yes, the fiber could have certainly made a difference, as the author noted, but you made an unfair assumption to suggest all the GF foods consumed were highly processed (or more processed than the "normal" gluten containing foods), therefore inherently bad.  I've come across many certified gluten free foods that are better than gluten containing equivalent products, in that they are made with more fiber, organic ingredients, no preservatives, etc. Why assume they choose the worst possible gluten free foods? 




hugh said:


> A diet without wheat but with 'safe' (paleo) polysaccharides would not cause a shift in bacteria that could be considered 'adverse'


Then we'd be comparing apples to oranges, since gluten is a protein, not a carbohydrate, so replacing one for the other wouldn't be relevant to this study objective.  

I will agree that removing any processed food is a step in the right direction towards a healthier way of eating, whether it's gluten free or not.


----------



## valleysangel92 (Apr 3, 2014)

I just wanted to say, that yes, there are some 'gluten replacement' foods which are really high in sugar and fat, way over processed and possibly do have negative affects on your gut (and your arteries if you eat them too much). There are however, products that are much better and more suitable, it is like anything, you have to read the labels, if there's anything you don't recognize then maybe look it up or check it against the gluten containing equivalent. 

Maybe it's different depending on where you live, but I've been completely gluten free since I was 14, and that's meant a lot of reading labels. Most of the replacement bread etc that I eat is actually made from either corn or rice flour, and apart from using different flour, it basically uses the same ingredients as the bread you would buy with gluten in it. This also goes for cookies and cakes, a lot of which now actually use 'pure' oats, which are certified as gluten free. 

Of course, one of the best ways to know whats in these products is to make your own, although it can be time consuming at first, it can take mere minutes once your used to it. We often make bread, cakes, biscuits, pizzas, pasties etc. You should be able to buy corn or rice flour from the stores pretty easily. A lot of shops here label them as gluten free flours, but when you read the ingredients its often either just rice flour or corn flour or a mix of the too. We also get flour blends aimed at making certain things, but we get them on prescription, and since I'm in Wales there's no charge at all. This is a brilliant way to keep processing at a minimum, and you can control things like salt and sugar too, plus they generally taste better and it ends up being a lot cheaper since you can make a big batch and then freeze some.


----------



## lbligh (Apr 3, 2014)

Definitely, the way to avoid fake foods is to cook.

I was able to find many different non-wheat flours at Asian markets, and they are much less expensive there. Rice flour, sweet rice flour, brown rice flour, sweet potato flour, tapioca flour, corn flour, masa harina, plantain flour. I was doing a lot of experimentation with flour blends, and making pasta, too! My favorite was sweet potato gnocchi made with rice and tapioca flour.

I had to give away a whole box full of these flours, when we found that the SCD really worked for my daughter, which gluten-free did not.

So now I'm learning a whole new cooking strategy, and our refrigerator is full of fruits and vegetables, while the pantry is almost empty. We never ate much commercially-processed food, but now we eat even less. In fact, the only thing I can think of besides mustard is pork rinds. And some flavors of Lara Bars, which can be kept in a backpack for emergency energy.

We found that SCD "bread" is inedible but some nut-based cookies are very good. Lettuce wraps have replaced sandwiches for my daughter's school lunches.


----------



## hugh (Apr 3, 2014)

Firstly, 
I think that the idea of 'gluten free food' has been hijacked totally by the gluten replacement foods. This study shows that replacing gluten with the particular GF foods used in the study had a 'negative' effect on gut bacteria.
It would be inappropriate and dishonest to make any other claims, and it tells us NOTHING about a balanced diet that simple excludes gluten in favour of nutritional starches, rather than replacing bread for GF bread, cake for GF cake, biscuits for GF biscuits ect.



VeganOstomy said:


> I've come across many certified gluten free foods that are better than gluten containing equivalent products, in that they are made with more fiber, organic ingredients, no preservatives, etc.  Why assume they choose the worst possible gluten free foods?


Sorry,
Of course not all GF food is bad, just MOST of it.
Cooking your own is always best as you know what is in it.
I have read many labels in my time, and GF foods usually have more additives and more highly processed ingredients to replicate the texture and taste of gluten.
Obviously my opinions are only my opinions.

We are told nothing of the quality of the foods, just that they are 'certified Gluten Free'.
In this particular study the only significant nutritional difference was that there was a lot less fibre. So my assumption that the GF foods consumed in the trial inferior is not unfair, it is accurate. The 'equivalent certified GF foods' consumed in the study (ie shop bought GF 'substitute' foods) obviously led to an 'inferior' bacterial balance (although if only 4 species were measured then i'm not sure how much value the study really has.)

_hugh said: 
A diet without wheat but with 'safe' (paleo) polysaccharides would not cause a shift in bacteria that could be considered 'adverse'_

and then...


VeganOstomy said:


> Then we'd be comparing apples to oranges, since gluten is a protein, not a carbohydrate, so replacing one for the other wouldn't be relevant to this study objective.


I'm not sure that you are correct there.
In this study there are two significant changes, removal of gluten and removal of fibre.
I'm not suggesting replacing gluten with carbohydrates, i'm suggesting similar levels of carbohydrates (polysaccharides) in the diets being compared,
If the diets were 'nutritionally equivalent' (in this case, had similar levels of polysaccharides) and the only difference was the absence of gluten then the results could be reasonably attributed to the absence of gluten
The results can more likely be attributed to the different levels of fibre and are possibly (probably?) totally unrelated to gluten content 
So all I want is a study that compares apples with apples, unlike this study



VeganOstomy said:


> I will agree that removing any processed food is a step in the right direction towards a healthier way of eating, whether it's gluten free or not.


amen to that


----------



## dave13 (Apr 5, 2014)

Not to muddle this thread more but...How is gut bacteria affected if you are GF and use aloe juice? Cytokines ie. Since this is a GF thread I figured it is a relevant question.


----------



## chrohnotrigger (Apr 7, 2014)

hugh said:


> Firstly,
> I think that the idea of 'gluten free food' has been hijacked totally by the gluten replacement foods.
> ...
> Of course not all GF food is bad, just MOST of it.
> ...


I think this is the heart of the matter. If you go GF to help _alleviate your IBD symptoms_, it is probably reasonable to not eat GF-replacement foods but rather foods that are naturally GF and inherently nutritious, like those outlined in the SCD or Paleo diets.


----------



## hbrekkaas (Apr 12, 2014)

I've been 100% gf for almost 2 years due to celiac disease. I was incredibly sick when I was diagnosed (through bloodwork) and within days of cutting it out of my diet I felt like a whole new person. I hadn't been diagnosed with IBD yet, but the symptoms that went away when I stopped eating gluten have never returned, so I assume they were celiac symptoms. Not Crohn's. Those symptoms were extreme fatigue, brain fog, dizziness, and left side joint pain. Oddly, I get right side joint pain on bad Crohns days. 

My son also has to eat 100% GF so we do have GF bread, crackers and cereals, but I don't eat many myself. I also make GF waffles/pancakes. And of course I make sure to buy safe soy sauce etc. For the most part we eat naturally GF foods though. Veggies, fruits, cheese/yogurt, potatoes, rice, meat etc.


----------



## Corina (Apr 18, 2014)

I'm still trying to figure the gluten thing out.  All I know is that sandwiches just never sit well, both white or wheat bread but especially wheat.  Is it the gluten itself or something else?  Other flour products and snacks, such as crackers, don't have this effect.  

Still struggling to find a diet that works and I get so hungry and want to reach for a sandwich and can't.  Rice, plain salads with basic ingredients and no dressing, potatoes, steamed vegetables, and fruit--when eaten alone as the sole meal--are all I can tolerate and I get so sick of the same old thing.  Seems I am starving most of the time without bread in my life.


----------



## alexga (Apr 18, 2014)

its inconclusive
i eat many things with G
not problems with it
yet, friend of a friend- she cant touch it (also living with crohn)

its very individual issue


----------



## Jabo (Apr 25, 2014)

I am only real food.  Here is what it looks like at my house.  Was on Humira, Prednisone, Aziothropone, Flagyl and Cipro.  Now med free.  Was going to bathroom 15-20 painful times a day, now 1-2 not painful.  I only use coconut and salt to cook with if feeling a little off.  So yes, I think gluten free is part of it, but I am also free of everything but fresh fruits veggies and meats.


----------



## lbligh (Apr 25, 2014)

Jabo, your refrigerator looks a lot like ours. Your diet sounds like the Specific Carbohydrate Diet and several other similar ones. I'm glad you are feeling so much better!


----------



## Sarahnarizona (Apr 25, 2014)

Hi!

So I was diagnosed with both Crohn's and Celiac on the same day and I was in shock. Its been a year and a half now and I finally feel like I am starting to grasp this whole gluten free world. I do use some GF replacements but mostly stick to what my husband likes to call the "label-less" foods, meats and veggies with fruit and natural grains. I think I have a good balance.

Here is my problem with Jabo's fridge.. I cant eat that many veggie or my Crohn's monster seems to kick in to over drive! Do you cook all your veggies way down before you eat them? I am at a loss of what to do with veggies!!! Salad is out of the question and anything else raw... Its frustrating!


----------



## dave13 (Apr 25, 2014)

I eat a lot of baked veg. and make a lot of soups.


----------



## Jabo (Apr 26, 2014)

Sarahnarizona said:


> Hi!
> 
> So I was diagnosed with both Crohn's and Celiac on the same day and I was in shock. Its been a year and a half now and I finally feel like I am starting to grasp this whole gluten free world. I do use some GF replacements but mostly stick to what my husband likes to call the "label-less" foods, meats and veggies with fruit and natural grains. I think I have a good balance.
> 
> Here is my problem with Jabo's fridge.. I cant eat that many veggie or my Crohn's monster seems to kick in to over drive! Do you cook all your veggies way down before you eat them? I am at a loss of what to do with veggies!!! Salad is out of the question and anything else raw... Its frustrating!


Hi, A lot of those veggies will end up being juiced.  I get the nutrients but not a lot of the problems.  If they aren't being juiced they will end up being cooked until they are obliterated.  Hahaha.  I am talking like baby food.  Before when I was sick, unfortunately I could look at my stool and identify exactly what I ate. :-(  But I found out by either blending something, juicing it, or cooking it to a mash and taking digestive enzymes and extra stomach acid, that it would actually digest!  Later after I healed, this wasn't as necessary but the habit of blending or juicing or eat veggie mash stuck with me as it had become my routine.  If I eat regular cooked veggies lightly stir fried in coconut oil and forget to take digestive enzymes, I am still perfectly fine the next day.  Still....... I don't make a habit of it.  For a long time, I lived in constant fear and anxiety of food.  I felt like a victim of terrorism not ever knowing when and where it would strike.  These days, that is gone and I don't live in fear but with confidence.  Still.... I remember where I came from and how I got better and keep most of those habits as preventive measures.  After they became routine, it was just lifestyle too so it was totally okay.


----------



## Jabo (Apr 26, 2014)

lbligh said:


> Jabo, your refrigerator looks a lot like ours. Your diet sounds like the Specific Carbohydrate Diet and several other similar ones. I'm glad you are feeling so much better!


It seems a lot of people are stumbling upon a real food diet from different angles with different rationalizations.  

I believe my body has a really hard time processing food, so I try to only buy things that are easily broken down by nature in the first place.  My rule is if I left it on the counter for a few days, I ask myself would nature start breaking it down?  I want things that breakdown easily.  Things in packages are hard for nature to breakdown so I figure it is also hard for my weak body to digest it.  

Anything I can do to help, like cooking something to a mush, or juicing it or blending, I feel like I am just helping my body a little bit more to break it down.


----------



## MicheleM (May 5, 2014)

I have been following a pretty strict paleo diet for 5 months. I feel great, very mild symptoms occurred only twice for just a few hours in the 5 months. I've lost 8 unwanted pounds. I do not replace wheat products with other unhealthy starches (corn starch, potato starch,etc.) but I eat real food with good starches (sweet potato, squash). My greatest discovery was to make zuchinni noodles to replace pasta. Tastes way better than pasta and is GF. My next favorite recipes are Banana Almond Butter muffins and banana pancakes (see thepaleomom). I eat a greater variety of vegetables now than I have for years, and can even eat raw apple and orange, which were a problem for me in the past. I eat cooked veggies, either roasted, steamed, or in soups. I think going GF and eating lots of protein has allowed my intestine to heal. I am able to really digest food and absorb the nutrients. My blood work shows I'm getting the nutrients. For people who are tired of being sick, I'd recommend trying gluten free/paleo/SCD. As I decided 5 months ago, what have I got to lose?


----------



## Susan2 (May 5, 2014)

Just to say that you need to approach any changes in diet carefully and gradually. I, for example, react very badly to corn in an form.  I eat very little processed food but need to read labels specifically looking out for corn.


----------



## Trevor (May 6, 2014)

If gf is more expensive than not then you are buying too much junk.

It's hard to say how many people benefit from not eating gluten and how many benefit from accidentally correcting nutritional deficiencies when they stop eating empty calories three meals a day (at least three). Many also accidentally go low-carb.

The best scientifically reputable numbers I've seen would be 1% celiac and 15-20% gluten intolerant/sensitive for the general American population.

I'd imagine much, much higher in the IBD community.


----------



## VeganOstomy (May 19, 2014)

The researcher who first thought that people may be sensitive to gluten (when they don't have Celiac), seems to be having doubts after a new study.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/gluten-sensitivity-may-not-exist-researcher-says-1.1824914

_Gibson told the American Gastroenterological Association that the team attributed some of the worsening symptoms to the “nocebo” effect, such as the kind of symptoms people report from wind turbines and Wi-Fi.
“What the study has shown is that this entity of non-celiac gluten sensitivity as reported by patients may not exist,” Gibson told the agency._


----------



## lbligh (May 20, 2014)

I see very little point in the hundreds of fake-food products in the stores, in the name of "gluten-free." Regardless of whether gluten itself bothers all the people who think it does, we're all better off eating real food cooked fresh at home, so you know what is in it.

Having done some wheat-free home baking before we dropped all grains to go on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, I am happy and surprised to report that the SCD cookies are usually a lot tastier than the ones made with the substitute flours. I do miss cooking with wheat flour and sugar, but I do not miss the tapioca flour, rice flour, xanthan gum, etc.


----------



## hugh (May 20, 2014)

Trevor said:


> It's hard to say how many people benefit from not eating gluten and how many benefit from accidentally correcting nutritional deficiencies when they stop eating empty calories three meals a day (at least three). Many also accidentally go low-carb.


amen to that. SIBO and crohn's go togeather[1]



VeganOstomy said:


> The researcher who first thought that people may be sensitive to gluten (when they don't have Celiac), seems to be having doubts after a new study.


I haven't read this study, just the extract.....
My first thought is that a week of gluten is not going to lead to the cascade induced by long term leaky gut that eventually leads to a chronic disease (specific to your genetic predisposition)[2].

Is it the gluten or the fodmaps? -ALL patients _“significantly worsened to a similar degree when their diets included gluten or whey protein_,” - but they were not _“gluten-specific gastrointestinal effects_” – large amounts of nutritionally empty carbs- usually containing wheat – removal leads to improvement, reintroduction leads to worsening.

Hmmmm, I ate gluten and felt worse but not in a gluten-specific way??
- does not support or contradict the proposition that “gluten-replacement foods” may not be a good idea?



lbligh said:


> I do miss cooking with wheat flour and sugar, but I do not miss the tapioca flour, rice flour, xanthan gum, etc.


I don't miss the wheat and sugar but i use tapioca flour, coconut flour and almond flour, and believe that rice flour is probably safe too (in moderation)

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19643023
[2] _In clinically asymptomatic Crohn’s disease patients, increased intestinal epithelial permeability precedes clinical relapse by as much as 1 year, suggesting that a permeability defect is an early event in disease exacerbation_
http://crohnsdad.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/clin-rev-allerg-immunol-leaky-gutautoimmunity.pdf


----------



## VeganOstomy (May 20, 2014)

hugh said:


> My first thought is that a week of gluten is not going to lead to the cascade induced by long term leaky gut that eventually leads to a chronic disease (specific to your genetic predisposition).


The full text can be found here: http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(13)00702-6/fulltext 

If there was an acute sensitivity as these self-reported gluten-intolerant people claim they had, then they would have experienced symptoms within a week of high-gluten intake.   I don't believe the study was meant to find long-term relationships between gluten and health, although most studies which focus on whole-grains (including gluten-containing gains) almost always conclude these foods are beneficial to non-celiacs. 

As for leaky gut, I don't want to derail this thread, but here's the first video in a series about a new theory if its cause:

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-leaky-gut-theory-of-why-animal-products-cause-inflammation/

And no Hugh, I'm not in the mood to debate :allright:  But you may be able to start a discussion on that page's comment section.


----------



## Jay Woodman (May 20, 2014)

I have made several significant changes in my diet now consistently for six months. Gluten free has been one of the easiest changes that I have made. I feel better & seem to be spending less time in the washroom : ) But I have also given up coffee & replaced it with green tea, given up cow diary, eliminated artificial & refined sugars...So I believe a general shift to a much healthier diet is certainly worth the effort : ) Including a gluten free shift : )


----------



## VeganOstomy (May 20, 2014)

Jeanette Woodman said:


> I have also given up coffee & replaced it with green tea, given up cow diary, eliminated artificial & refined sugars...So I believe a general shift to a much healthier diet is certainly worth the effort : )


You made some big changes! Congrats on the feeling the benefits!


----------



## LodgeLady (May 20, 2014)

Congrats!! I know when I went gluten free, it was really obvious how much better I felt!! But because I am now gluten free, lactose free, and have a low fat diet (after GB surgery), I am finding it very hard to put on weight.


----------



## VeganOstomy (May 20, 2014)

LodgeLady said:


> I am finding it very hard to put on weight.


Have you been tracking your caloric intake and activity (exercise, walking, etc.)?  If you have to replace the calories you took out if you want to put weight back on.


----------



## LodgeLady (May 20, 2014)

VeganOstomy said:


> Have you been tracking your caloric intake and activity (exercise, walking, etc.)?  If you have to replace the calories you took out if you want to put weight back on.


I am fighting a triple edge sword I think. Changing my diet helped me feel better, but I dont "feel" better because I can't keep weight on or gain it. I'm seeing a nutritionist in 6 weeks along with my specialist appt. I just don't know what to eat to keep my Crohn's symptoms at bay but put the weight on.


----------



## VeganOstomy (May 20, 2014)

LodgeLady said:


> I am fighting a triple edge sword I think. Changing my diet helped me feel better, but I dont "feel" better because I can't keep weight on or gain it. I'm seeing a nutritionist in 6 weeks along with my specialist appt. I just don't know what to eat to keep my Crohn's symptoms at bay but put the weight on.


The nutritionist should be able to offer some advice.What kind of high-calorie foods are you currently eating?


----------



## LodgeLady (May 20, 2014)

VeganOstomy said:


> The nutritionist should be able to offer some advice.What kind of high-calorie foods are you currently eating?


Here is a list of food, I don't read calories so I don't know if they are high or not;

Lactose free yougurt, eggs, tuna fish, cereal with almond milk, ground beef, chicken, rice noodles, spaghetti sauce with meat, fruit, a little candy, GF cupcakes, p.chips, GF pretzels, canned vegetables.

Any suggestions? Usually high calorie means fatty foods or lots of carbs, right?


----------



## hugh (May 20, 2014)

VeganOstomy said:


> If there was an acute sensitivity as these self-reported gluten-intolerant people claim they had, then they would have experienced symptoms within a week of high-gluten intake. I don't believe the study was meant to find long-term relationships between gluten and health, although most studies which focus on whole-grains (including gluten-containing gains) almost always conclude these foods are beneficial to non-celiacs.


Good point, acute sensitivities would show up in a week.
My point was that "_all patients significantly worsened to a similar degree when their diets included gluten or whey protein_", so it may not be a 'gluten-specific" sensitivity, but it is obviously related to the ingestion of these substances, and i assume you have no problem accepting that nasty evil whey is bad but still feel that happy wholesome gluten is OK? 



VeganOstomy said:


> As for leaky gut, I don't want to derail this thread, but here's the first video in a series about a new theory if its cause:
> 
> http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-leaky-gut-theory-of-why-animal-products-cause-inflammation/
> 
> And no Hugh, I'm not in the mood to debate :allright:  But you may be able to start a discussion on that page's comment section.


Sorry Veganostamy, couldn't believe you put that video up as a serious suggestion
I was determined to be polite and mature until i watched that piece of crap....

 - "Egg and sausage McMuffins were used in the original study" to prove tat meat causes inflammation? Are you f#$king kidding me???? grain, sugar, vegetable oil, fake cheese, processed meat and god knows what else [1] but  this proves it was the meat?????????????:rof:
Whipped cream did the same thing? -was it Mcdonald's whipped cream? or some other sweetened artificial crap?, maybe a can of whipped cream?
This is horseshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll take Allesio Fasano over your vegan muppet/puppet anyday

[1] _ McDonald's Egg McMuffin Ingredients
The ingredients in the Egg McMuffin are processed and filled with preservatives. The English muffin is made from refined but enriched flours and has high fructose corn syrup listed among the top five ingredients. McDonald's prepares both the eggs and the English muffins used in Egg McMuffins with liquid margarine, which is filled with hydrogenated oils. Large amounts of sodium can be found in the cheese and Canadian style bacon, while the eggs have been modified with soy lecithin.
_
http://www.livestrong.com/article/237257-mcdonalds-egg-mcmuffin-nutrition/

Best we agree to disagree


----------



## VeganOstomy (May 20, 2014)

LodgeLady said:


> Here is a list of food, I don't read calories so I don't know if they are high or not;
> 
> Lactose free yougurt, eggs, tuna fish, cereal with almond milk, ground beef, chicken, rice noodles, spaghetti sauce with meat, fruit, a little candy, GF cupcakes, p.chips, GF pretzels, canned vegetables.
> 
> Any suggestions? Usually high calorie means fatty foods or lots of carbs, right?


I'd suggest keeping track of your calories first.  I use cronometer.com for that. 

I don't tend to base the bulk of my diet on fats, but carbs from starches.  A list of healthy starchy foods can be found here: http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/free-mcdougall-program/steps-to-recovery/starch-staples/

If you're eating a high-protein diet, you may be inadvertently suppressing your appetite too, which leads to a decrease in overall calories. 

Track your calories and add in foods (or more of what you're eating) to get to an ideal intake.  If your IBD is active, you may have a hard time gaining weight regardless of what you eat.


----------



## LodgeLady (May 20, 2014)

VeganOstomy said:


> I'd suggest keeping track of your calories first.  I use cronometer.com for that.
> 
> I don't tend to base the bulk of my diet on fats, but carbs from starches.  A list of healthy starchy foods can be found here: http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/free-mcdougall-program/steps-to-recovery/starch-staples/
> 
> ...


Thanks. Unfortunately, most of the high calorie foods are also the ones with wheat, barley, oats. This is where GF becomes a problem.

I'm curious as to what a nutritionist will do? Do they plan out meals? Do they request bloodwork?


----------



## hugh (May 20, 2014)

LodgeLady said:


> Thanks. Unfortunately, most of the high calorie foods are also the ones with wheat, barley, oats. This is where GF becomes a problem.
> 
> I'm curious as to what a nutritionist will do? Do they plan out meals? Do they request bloodwork?


A nutritionist will tell you to eat your 7 serves of grain a day.
Stick to safe starches (paleo and rice) and exercise. calorie intake is a small part of weight gain, what matters is if you are digesting and absorbing what you eat....


----------



## LodgeLady (May 20, 2014)

hugh said:


> A nutritionist will tell you to eat your 7 serves of grain a day.
> Stick to safe starches (paleo and rice) and exercise. calorie intake is a small part of weight gain, what matters is if you are digesting and absorbing what you eat....


That's it? Yes I eat a lot of rice. Easy to digest. Well, does excercise help you gain weight? I do walk, albeit not that often.

I was hoping the nutritionist would design a meal/food intake plan, not just tell me what I should eat.


----------



## hugh (May 20, 2014)

LodgeLady said:


> Here is a list of food, I don't read calories so I don't know if they are high or not;
> 
> Lactose free yougurt, eggs, tuna fish, cereal with almond milk, ground beef, chicken, rice noodles, spaghetti sauce with meat, fruit, a little candy, GF cupcakes, p.chips, GF pretzels, canned vegetables.
> 
> Any suggestions? Usually high calorie means fatty foods or lots of carbs, right?


my two cents -
ditch thecereal, commercial almond milk, commercial spaghetti sauce,candy, GF cupcakes, p.chips, GF pretzels and replace with paleo foods.
Avoid vegetable oils, grains and sugar entirely


----------



## LodgeLady (May 20, 2014)

hugh said:


> my two cents -
> ditch thecereal, commercial almond milk, commercial spaghetti sauce,candy, GF cupcakes, p.chips, GF pretzels and replace with paleo foods.
> Avoid vegetable oils, grains and sugar entirely


Ok, can you post a link to Paleo foods?


----------



## VeganOstomy (May 20, 2014)

hugh said:


> Sorry Veganostamy, couldn't believe you put that video up as a serious suggestion
> I was determined to be polite and mature until i watched that piece of crap....
> 
> - "Egg and sausage McMuffins were used in the original study" to prove tat meat causes inflammation?


LOL... yeah, I hear you, that's what they used in the _original study_, but I don't think it would have made a difference, since animal products tend to raise inflammatory markers anyways (we just didn't know the exact mechanism causing that rise as there are several explanations).  IGF-1, CRP, blood flow are all measurably impacted after consuming animal products (plant foods produce the opposite effect). 

In any case, the leaky gut theory still remains a theory with no clear cause.  Nobody can say with certainty that it's caused by meat, gluten or sugar, but we'll get answers eventually.  

But I'm sure we can both agree that McMuffins are bad :rof:


----------



## VeganOstomy (May 20, 2014)

hugh said:


> calorie intake is a small part of weight gain, what matters is if you are digesting and absorbing what you eat....


^^^^ THIS

But from the sound of it, foods were removed without being replaced and that's likely the bigger issue.


----------



## hugh (May 20, 2014)

LodgeLady said:


> Well, does excercise help you gain weight? I do walk, albeit not that often.
> 
> I was hoping the nutritionist would design a meal/food intake plan, not just tell me what I should eat.


Exercise helps you gain weight sometimes, -adding muscle mass will add weight, burning fat will decrease weight.

Nutritionists go to university to learn about nutrition, but they learn what is accepted to be the truth, which may or may not be true.
Some (and it is only a few) manage think outside of the indoctrination and some go weirdie-vegan and some go sensible-paleo:ylol2:

http://www.eat-real-food-paleodietitian.com/
http://authoritynutrition.com/11-paleo-low-carb-registered-dietitians-with-blogs/


----------



## hugh (May 20, 2014)

VeganOstomy said:


> LOL... yeah, I hear you, that's what they used in the _original study_, but I don't think it would have made a difference, since animal products tend to raise inflammatory markers anyways (we just didn't know the exact mechanism causing that rise as there are several explanations).  IGF-1, CRP, blood flow are all measurably impacted after consuming animal products (plant foods produce the opposite effect).


Glad we agree more than we disagree.....
I agree that vegetables reduce inflammation but my interpretation of what i've read is that grains and sugars and vegetable oils raise inflammation (and far more than meat does).
I suspect that the reason the term 'plant-based' diet is replacing 'vegetarian' is because grains are NOT vegetables.


----------



## LodgeLady (May 20, 2014)

hugh said:


> Exercise helps you gain weight sometimes, -adding muscle mass will add weight, burning fat will decrease weight.
> 
> Nutritionists go to university to learn about nutrition, but they learn what is accepted to be the truth, which may or may not be true.
> Some (and it is only a few) manage think outside of the indoctrination and some go weirdie-vegan and some go sensible-paleo:ylol2:
> ...


Thanks!! One problem, from the couple of minutes I looked at the link, it seems to be a high fat diet. I had my gallbladder removed and need to stay low fat at least until my body sorts itself out. High fat means running to the loo. That is one of my problems.


----------



## hugh (May 20, 2014)

LodgeLady said:


> Thanks!! One problem, from the couple of minutes I looked at the link, it seems to be a high fat diet. I had my gallbladder removed and need to stay low fat at least until my body sorts itself out. High fat means running to the loo. That is one of my problems.


Yup, paleo as it is preached by many is high fat (Cordain- the guy who bought it to the mainstream?- was low fat but most realise that if you are not eating carbs you need fat....)
Maybe you want to look at 'The Perfect Health Diet'[1].
It is what you could call Paleo2.0, a rethink that doesn't assume all carbs are bad, just grains. This is pretty much what i try to eat....
[1] http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/07/ulcerative-colitis-a-devastating-gut-disease/
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/the-diet/

Hope this link is useful too....
Tips for Easy Fat Digestion after Gall Bladder Surgery
_"The first thing to realize if you have no gall bladder is that you need cholesterol to produce bile which assists with the digestion of regular long chain fats and oils.  Note that short or medium chain triglycerides like coconut or palm oil do not require bile for digestion......"
"....Avoiding fat is potentially going to compound problems with digesting fat in the long run as you won’t be getting the healthy, unprocessed cholesterol you need to produce bile!
Do you see the vicious cycle that can occur if you avoid fat after gall bladder surgery"
_
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/tips-for-easy-fat-digestion-after-gall-bladder-surgery/


----------



## hugh (May 21, 2014)

VeganOstomy said:


> _Gibson told the American Gastroenterological Association that the team attributed some of the worsening symptoms to the “nocebo” effect, such as the kind of symptoms people report from wind turbines and Wi-Fi.
> “What the study has shown is that this entity of non-celiac gluten sensitivity as reported by patients may not exist,” Gibson told the agency._


Just like to point out that these are from a site i don't visit too often because of it's vegetarian/vegan leanings....

_".....the study found that gluten is likely not alone responsible for all of the adverse health effects many without celiac disease experience as a result of gluten consumption, indicating that other factors beyond gluten in wheat, including fructans (which are reduced in the FODMAPs) diet, enzyme inhibitors (e.g. α-amylase/trypsin inhibitors), and lectins..., likely play role in explaining why so many who employ a wheat free diet experience self-reported improvements in their health."_
_.....although it is correct to state that 'Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity' may not be as large a problem as initially anticipated, 'Non-Celiac Wheat Sensitivity' very well is. _
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/mainstream-media-declares-gluten-sensitivity-myth-who-cares?page=2

_with no less than 6 sets of chromosomes and 6.5 times more genes than found in the human genome, it is capable of producing no less than 23,788 different proteins ......
...... any one of these proteins could elicit what is known as an antigenic response, i.e. the immune system identifies a wheat protein as other, launches either an innate or adaptive immune response, and attacks self-structures accidentally, as a result._
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/wheat-contains-not-one-23k-potentially-harmful-proteins"

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/ne...ploding-gluten-sensitivity-epidemic-free-pdf1


----------



## hugh (May 26, 2014)

Aside from GMOs, Crop desiccation is another factor in the toxicity of wheat (and all other grains and pulses.)
If your gonna eat 'em - go organic and WAP (western a price - proper preparation)

"_Glyphosate is applied to plants just before harvest [More even ripening is achieved and harvest can be conducted earlier] and absorbed by plants; it cannot be washed out prior to human use. Herbicides can also reach humans through meat and milk of cattle that has been fed herbicide-treated fodder. It has been identified in the urine of urban dwellers who do not handle glyphosate at concentrations of 0.5-2 ng/ml, much higher than allowed in drinking water (<0.1 ng/ml)_"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_desiccation


----------



## wildbill_52280 (May 26, 2014)

since i don't seem to react to things with gluten in it, but do react to some types of wheat  my current theory is that i may be reacting to the type of fermentable fibers in it which certain pathogens i'm harboring can utilize very well. 

its possible that  low fiber diet for a short term may help eradicate some of these bacteria, and also makes me think of the FODMAP diet which is based on this very principle may have some value in the managment of IBD. I have applied the SCD diet principles and reduced some of my symptoms greatly from avoiding disachariddes like lactose and sucrose.

combine some principles of SCD with FODMAP and you may have yourself a serious IBD diet that might help.


----------



## wildbill_52280 (May 26, 2014)

hugh said:


> Just like to point out that these are from a site i don't visit too often because of it's vegetarian/vegan leanings....
> 
> _".....the study found that gluten is likely not alone responsible for all of the adverse health effects many without celiac disease experience as a result of gluten consumption, indicating that other factors beyond gluten in wheat, including fructans (which are reduced in the FODMAPs) diet, enzyme inhibitors (e.g. α-amylase/trypsin inhibitors), and lectins..., likely play role in explaining why so many who employ a wheat free diet experience self-reported improvements in their health."_
> _.....although it is correct to state that 'Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity' may not be as large a problem as initially anticipated, 'Non-Celiac Wheat Sensitivity' very well is. _
> ...


wow! this coincides with what i just typed. maybe my theory has some merit then.

just found this
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/20...luten-a-carb-in-wheat-may-be-the-real-culprit


----------



## Jboy-- (May 27, 2014)

I find when I eat gluten free that my bloating is a bit less profound.


----------



## hugh (May 27, 2014)

from Wildbill's link.....
"_Chey says, "a number of people, including me, now feel that non-celiac gluten sensitivity is a misnomer. We should be saying wheat intolerance."
Another critical determinant of gut health that scientists are scrambling to understand is the community of microbes in the digestive tract.... Chey notes that what you eat influences your microbiome, and your microbiome influences how you ferment carbs like FODMAPs that reach your colon._"

Can't argue with that (me, i can't  )



Jboy-- said:


> I find when I eat gluten free that my bloating is a bit less profound.


GF is only part of the picture.
Are you eating "gluten-replacement foods" or just leaving gluten out without replacing with an imitation food?
Look at FODMAPS (and Paleo) for a more complete way of managing your diet....


----------



## Jboy-- (May 27, 2014)

hugh said:


> from Wildbill's link.....
> "_Chey says, "a number of people, including me, now feel that non-celiac gluten sensitivity is a misnomer. We should be saying wheat intolerance."
> Another critical determinant of gut health that scientists are scrambling to understand is the community of microbes in the digestive tract, as we've . Chey notes that what you eat influences your microbiome, and your microbiome influences how you ferment carbs like FODMAPs that reach your colon._"
> 
> ...


Usually I'll eat quinoa, gluten free pastas and taco shells. So more imitation yes, however quinoa is more of a natural route.


----------



## hugh (May 27, 2014)

Yeah Quinoa is 'better' but quinoa will still contain many proteins that are fine in your intestine, but if they pass through the intestinal wall undigested or partially digested they may be problematic.
The paleo point of view would be that quinoa also contains compounds called saponins that may contribute to intestinal permeability[1].(hence aiding the passage of undigested molecules and the immune response and inflammation that said molecules cause/contribute to).
Gluten free pastas are usually a mix containing corn and that is another problem grain.(read the ingredients, if it says rice and nothing else then that's another story(below), but rice noodle may be cheaper.)
Taco shell, that's corn.

Instead of grains, paleo would recommend carbohydrates from tubers and other vegetables[2]. Some would recommend a restriction (but not elimination) of carb intake, replacing many of the carbs with fats. I have no problem with that as there appear to be many health benefits[3] ,
If i was starting again and did not have to go through years of trial and error because i didn't have access to the world at my fingertips i would use one of two methods depending mainly on my personality type/state of mind (and how long i thought i had to piss around, death's door and all ale....
This is what i would do and is *not* a recommendation for you to do it.
Do your own research and make up your own mind. (the red pill or the blue pill?)

Option one 
Start with a sensible healthy diet (so long as it is not the one recommended by your doctor and your government (7 serves and all))

Coming from a paleo diet i gradually settled on "The Perfect Health Diet"[4] and wished i'd found it sooner.
Unlike paleo (and this guy has really shaken up the paleo world), Paul Jamminet argues that rice is good, because it is toxin free, and the whole deal is whether the food is toxic, not whether its old.
Probiotics are an important part of his diet and he did a series of blogs on IBD [5] that make good reading (there are four parts, and i recommend them all)
This makes the whole thing easier and cheaper than paleo.......

From here more measures and restrictions can be made as some/many may feel much better and others only small improvements.

The idea being that I now fell empowered enough and well enough to take the next step.
-avoiding nuts/eggs/nightshades/dairy/allergies/intolerances/yoga/exercise/leaky gut/past life trauma/carbohydrates/addiction/whatever

The other option, if i felt hardcore and determined, would be the Paleo AI (Auto immune) Protocol[6], (which is as daunting as it sounds).
There is a lot of information on that link but basically a very strict paleo diet (no nuts,eggs,nightshades,alcohol/whatever) for a minimum of 30 days with a gradual and staggered reintroduction of foods  There's more to it but that's the gist.

[1] http://ultimatepaleoguide.com/is-quinoa-paleo-a-deep-dive/
[2] http://www.balancedbites.com/PDFs/BOOK_EXTRAS/PracticalPaleo_GuidetoPaleoCarbs.pdf
[3] http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/diets/low-carb-diets/
[4] http://perfecthealthdiet.com/the-diet/
[5] http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/07/ulcerative-colitis-a-devastating-gut-disease/
[6] http://www.thepaleomom.com/autoimmunity/the-autoimmune-protocol


----------



## Jboy-- (May 27, 2014)

hugh said:


> Yeah Quinoa is 'better' but quinoa will still contain many proteins that are fine in your intestine, but if they pass through the intestinal wall undigested or partially digested they may be problematic.
> The paleo point of view would be that quinoa also contains compounds called saponins that may contribute to intestinal permeability[1].(hence aiding the passage of undigested molecules and the immune response and inflammation that said molecules cause/contribute to).
> Gluten free pastas are usually a mix containing corn and that is another problem grain.(read the ingredients, if it says rice and nothing else then that's another story(below), but rice noodle may be cheaper.)
> Taco shell, that's corn.
> ...


Hugh, thanks for all the information about the Paleo diet! I've actually been doing research on it lately and 2 of my friends that are nurses recommended it for IBD. I really think I'm going to try it soon, I just want some relief and I'd love to have my life go back to what it used to be like. I'll check out the links tomorrow, I appreciate it all. 

All the best, 

Jonathan


----------



## Trevor (May 27, 2014)

I won't outright condem quinoa but I now avoid it like the plague. Those saponins or whatnot are deadly :-/ I don't react badly to too much but I violently react to that devil seed.

I mean, I'm not afraid of it in small amounts in the odd pasta or something that I eat infrequently but I do not, as a hard rule, ever buy it or cook it or eat it in amounts larger than a spoonful.


----------

