# Crohns and exercise



## Brando

Lately through a strict diet (gluten free) and some supplementation (probiotics, vitamins, and protein powder) I have felt good enough to start a fairly strenuous exercise program once again to try and get my butt back in shape.  So I started this exercise program and noticed after getting very sore from heavy lifting and cardio that my crohns spots were beginning to become less irritated, no cramping, and noticeable reductions in swelling.  This got me thinking because I used to be a very active athlete that never stopped playing a sport year round.. then I got to college and became sedentary and that's when my problems started.

Now I have always maintained that bacterial flora in the gut had something to do with Crohns and I still maintain that belief and this adds to it:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/007165.htm

In my case exercise has helped tremendously and I think it is also almost like a maintenance dose that keeps my body in check which could explain why I never had problems until I got to college and why I had terrible asthma when I was a kid until I got involved in sports.  I doubt it will work for everyone but I believe that some form of exercise can probably do all of us some good seeing as it helps regulate immune function along with a host of other things like excreting the bad stuff.  maybe coupled with some of those probiotics mentioned in the other thread, BBC News - Bacterium 'to blame for Crohn's', we could actually see a for real deal long term treatment option with no serious side effects. anyways, food for thought


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## Brando

i found this part of the article the most interesting:

# Exercise sends antibodies and white blood cells (the body's defense cells) through the body at a quicker rate. As these antibodies or white blood cells circulate more rapidly, they could detect illnesses earlier than they might normally. The increased rate of circulating blood may also trigger the release of hormones that "warn" immune cells of intruding bacteria or viruses.

does that sound to anyone else like this whole new approach to Crohns using Viagra to increase blood supply to affected areas?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4740632.stm


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## Agent X20

My brother used to work for a major drugs company, he told me about the crohns/viagra thing a while ago. It has the added advantage that it stops you rolling out of bed in the middle of the night!


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## teamgo

Interesting article. I definitely found that exercise helps me feel better (when I am well enough to actually exercise). In addition to regular exercise, I have found yoga particularly helpful.


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## pb4

Exercise is a huge benefit all around...it helps the colon function properly and not to mention the mental/emotional benefits it has as well, exercise is truly a powerful tool for me, I do it at least 4 times a week, I start off with cardio and then do weights and each day I alternate, one day I work on my arms and upper body then next my legs and lower body....and then sometimes I'll take a whole week and just do a strenuous cardio for about an hour.

Something is always better than nothing, and the benefit for your joints, bones is amazing too, weight bearing exercise can actually ward off osteo and arthritis issues.


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## BWS1982

PB4, I totally agree with you there. Many people told me I may have pushed myself too hard with weights and made myself prone to my joint issues, when what I knew and the dr's told me was that Crohns has been doing it. I never felt better than when I was always working out, mentally and physically. I always tell people that your bone density and tensil strength is increased, not brought down, by heavy lifting. It's like walking in bare feet all the time, your soles will get calouses to adapt, not become more sensitive.

I just wish I wasn't so battered from this flare to do much of anything.


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## pb4

Everyone should try and find some form of exercise they can tolerate even during flares, aquasizing, pilates and there are many forms of yoga and don't be fooled by the word yoga, there are some forms of yoga that would make grown men cry because they are so tough to do from what I've heard...something is always better than nothing, even walking on a treadmill at home for 1/2 hour every day or riding a stationary bike.


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## fenway1971

I'm a true believer in exercise.  I started working out with trainer a year ago.  Noticed vast improvement in energy levels and cholestorol (from 200 to 165 after 6 mos of working out).  

During most recent flare, I didn't go to gym.  Felt too fatigued.  Then, went on Prednisone and felt to wiry.  

Finally, as I've gotten used to steroids, went back today and feel better about myself.  Healthy body, healthy mind, healty crohns.


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## BWS1982

I wish I had a healthy Crohns.


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## pb4

I know it's hard BWS,

Even when I was going 30 times a day I still made sure to ride the stationary bike for 1/2 an hour each day and it really did help...We invested in some used equipment, the more expensive ones like the stationary bike (we paid 200.00 for it used and it's worth over a grand brand new) the wieder gym, was worth almost 2000 brand new and we got a used one for 400.00, dumbells, jumprope, mini trampoline were all purchased at walmart so it wasn't expensive, you don't have to get everthing all at once, just start with a few essentials and go from there, if you have room in your house that is, and it sure beats the cost and inconvenience of going to a gym.

Or even just some stretching daily, yoga type moves, pilates is an inexpensive investment too.


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## Jeff D.

I agree with you guys on this 100%.  This is why for years I have been trying to figure a way out to test Crohn's patients and how they do with exercise.  I want to ask my GI to ask some of his patients, some in remission and some that are not, to do an exercise experiment.  I want to try and get my school gym to sponsor it by letting them go for free.  If I can remember I am going to ask my CPR/First Aid teacher who is an athletic trainer at school to help me get in touch with the right people.  It may have to wait a semester or next year but within the next two years I am hoping to have this experiment go underway.  I want to get a sample of 50 patients, 25 in remission and 25 in a mild flare.  The reason I want to get 25 in a mild flare is that I want to see how exercise may help those who are in a flare and have permission from their GI to do it of course.  I don't want anyone on prednisone have a tendon tear off from their body.  If they get worse and show no signs of getting better within a week, because many people will feel worse at first and get better after a few days, then they will be immediately dropped from the experiment as I don't want anyone to get hurt.  I will put together with the help of my GI and those of his practice as well as teachers from school to help me get this underway.  I was wondering if any of you guys would be able to post any ideas.  Maybe I should make a new thread with this question so more people can see but that will have to wait for tomorrow.  I'm just looking for some suggestions.  Thanks I'll post a new thread for this tomorrow but as I started typing this I have gone too far to stop now and make a new thread and I have to go to bed now.  Good night and thanks.


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## Isla

Well you have to have a theory or inkling at what TYPE of exercise would help. Yoga and cardio seems fine for me - but when I go for my walks it makes me feel worse, intestinally, at least half the time if not more, but it doesn't cause a flare or anything so I still do it. I am not sure why it bothers that whole system - but that is why I am assuming you have something specific in mind.

Exercising also did not prevent a flare caused from stress, but then again I haven't been exercising for that long and currently can't because of my stupid foot. Shrug.


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## pb4

Hi Jeff,

There have been studies regarding crohn's and exercise, here's a link to the CCFA for starters...

http://www.ccfa.org/reuters/excercise

http://www.remicade.com/remicade/crohns/crohns_lifestyle/crohns_exercise.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17066157

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/searc...8&year_to=2008&database=1&pageSize=20&index=3


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## Loveless

I really does help. I always run, run my bike, take my dog for a walk,and play sports.


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## RHOV

Jeff, that would be the coolest project EVER! I really hope you get to do something like that!


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## Jeff D.

Well I was going to write a new thread a few days ago but I have decided to do some research instead because I know you guys will have some questions for me and I want to be able to answer every question that you guys can throw at me without having to look it up.  The briefing of it is that I'm going to use exercise to help me test how ACE affects the body.  I'm going to come back in a bit with everything I find out and for questions.  The exercise I will be using to test will vary as time goes on.  It will start with walking and end with lifting as they progress.  I have decided I will not be a part of the test and will just exercise on my own because as the test goes on and I find out what comes out of the blood tests I don't want to give away to anyone what the results are.


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## hippie4lyfe

I wish i had the energy to goto the gym


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## My Tummy Hurts

I wish I had the energy too.... I am always way too exhausted to even think about it. :-( And I know I am way out of shape because of it.


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## jessev

Hmm this is an interesting thread because I am coming from the other side of the fence and would have to say that exercise could have made me worse.

I have never been an over weight person but have had a few battles with Pred in the past couple of years that had made me a bit chubby, so being relatively healthy and no longer flarring, I decided to hit the gym pretty hard (this was  about 3 months ago) I must admit it has changed my life for the better, I lost weight pretty quickly because I was doing hard cardio 5 times a week and weights and every other day, I felt great both mentally and physically ...

This was until about 3 weeks ago until I start flaring pretty badly, so I went to my GI and told him that I had been doing a lot of exercising and also eating more healthy things .. He told me my flare was most likely contributed to the heavy exercising and that it was to much for my body which makes sense as your body is under alot of stress when doing hard cardio, I agree with the comments that exercise makes you feel better but I believe this only a short lived effect I think long term hard cardio can be a bit to much for some people who have active crohns/ Uc. 

I am still doing weights, but have cut out my cardio almost completely ( I go for a run once to twice a week) and I have noticed I dont feel as worse as I was.. Its killing me not being able to do as much.  

I might be wrong, anything could have set me off either way Im giving the cardio a break at least while im flaring. 

Jesse


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## BWS1982

Intense exercise evokes a repair on the body, but until it's repaired or healed, it is in a state not unlike an immuno-supression. I've read about how during the recovery of intense workouts your body is very susceptible to illness, similarly to when you are out in the cold too long and your body is vulnerable from the extra work to keep you warm. Stress hormones are released from intense exercise, and it has to do with that in a large way, but with Crohns, the immune system and these changes may be unproductive to maintaining remission or reduced symptoms.

I'll have to dig around to find the article on it, one was in a fitness magazine, and talked about immunity being "shorted" temporarily while recovering from intense bouts of exercise, but in the long run, benefitting from it from the health boosts. It's not that different if you think about it, as when you damage the muscles with microtears from lifting weights. You are temporarily weaker in your major skeletal muscles while healing (and possibly sore as hell), but later, you are (with proper rest and diet) stronger and better than before. Microtears are essentially inflammatory responses, as well....


Edit: I can't find it on the site that I thought had it, it may be there, but it's not easy to find just now....so a google pulled this up, hope this helps everyone, it's accurate as far as I can tell:

http://www.time-to-run.com/physiology/exercise-immune.htm



> The immune system consists of many specialist cells that protect the body against attack from bacteria, viruses and fungi that cause illness and infection. Although at rest an athlete's immune system is similar to an sedentary individual, a strenuous bout of exercise or prolonged periods of heavy training is suggested to produce an 'open window' of altered immunity. This may last anywhere between 3 - 72 hours, and consequently increase an individual's risk of contracting an infection. Moreover, a serious athlete will undertake repeated bouts of training throughout this period, which serves to further stress the immune system when already in a weakened state.


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## pb4

Depending on the flare should dictate your exercise but some is always better than none.  If you're flare is severe then lighter exercise is best, pilates, aquasize ect...no offense but common sense must prevail when it comes to the severity of ones flare and the extent of their workouts.


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## BWS1982

Well, the odd thing is he said he was no longer flaring, but perhaps he really was, or he hadn't waited long enough to ease into things.


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## jessev

pb4 said:
			
		

> Depending on the flare should dictate your exercise but some is always better than none.  If you're flare is severe then lighter exercise is best, pilates, aquasize ect...no offense but common sense must prevail when it comes to the severity of ones flare and the extent of their workouts.


I said that I was *healthy * when I started the exercise, I had not been flaring for almost a year (which is the longest I had been remission since diagnosed) then once I started the fairly hard exercise regeem I begin seeing symptoms. 

It could also be because I changed my diet to  less saturated fats, more salads, nuts and an increase in protein, which I know effects some people.


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## pb4

Gee, sorry I missed that you mentioned you were healthy at the time when engaging in strenuous exercise and then started to bleed...chalk it up to the nature of the beast, exercise is important obviously, now you know you have to limit yourself (healthy or not), it's different for everyone...I was doing pretty strenuous exercise while flaring and along with the naturals I use, I got better thankfully rather than worse....and yes, diet could certainly have played a factor, I wouldn't be surprised if in your case it may have been a huge factor.


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## jessev

... didnt mean to come across as annoyed. 

The only problem I have is when I do cardio I cant go half paced like some people, I have to go hard for at least the first 20 minutes..

Ive stopped that diet for now anyway and noticed the symptoms are slightly better but still a lot of blood and diarrhea hopefully after I get my infliximab (remicade) ill be back into the swing of things. 

Jesse


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## pb4

Only 20 minutes of cardio is sufficient, why not stop at that?  Then you can go hard at it for those 20 min and then hit the weights, that's what I do...weights also burn calories just as cardio and with the added bonus of building/toning muscles.

My GI (Dr. Remo Panaccione) told me to take fibre supplements daily and indefinitely, it's been 5 yrs and I haven't missed a day and it's the best advice I've ever gotten from a GI in my entire 17 yrs of having crohn's...as long as you're not a stricturing crohnie or have issues with blockages you might want to consider giving it a try.  It aids with D or C...probiotics is essential for us IBDers as well since we're prone to bacterial over-growth and plenty of studies indicate the necessity of probioitcs on a daily basis to help restore the balance of the gut flora.


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## BWS1982

Just to note, you burn more calories (if one is focused on that) if you do weights first, and you will also be more energized, if you do weights first, in case your focus is on building muscle. In either case, doing the lifting, then doing cardio, will be a bit more of an advantage. You have a full reserve of glycogen if you hit the weights first, which is one benefit for building muscle. On the other hand, your metabolism will usually show a larger spike with weights first, at least according to the studies that keep coming out testing the 2, which makes sense, because your metabolism gets a bigger spike from weights than it does from cardio.


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## pb4

Hmmm, in all my yrs I've never heard that...but I prefer to do my cardio first since it's a great way to warm up before doing actual weight lifting...and I also will do a little cardio in between lifting as well and this has always worked best for me...actually I couldn't even imagine doing weights first because cardio really gets your heart pumping which is what aids with lifting weights afterwards...besides, I'm sure you would lose weight the same way regardless if you do weights first or not because afterall, it's not just working out that helps one lose weight, it's diet, if you eat junk and workout you won't have near the results compared to eating right and working out.

There are certain ways to lift weights depending on if you want to tone muscles or bulk muscles or even to lose weight as well.


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## katiesue1506

but you can eat junk and work out and then its like not having ever eaten junk. That's my preferred way. I like food.


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## pb4

LOL Katiesue,

If only it really worked that way, but in reality you won't get the full benefit of working out if you're putting junky fuel into your body, besides which we all know that junky food is the last thing our crohn's needs.


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## BWS1982

Well, I remember 2 or 3 of those studies posted in some articles, but before I find those, here's some reference to the cardio vs. weights order (but not so much on the order itself, yet) and even speaks on some studies proving why cardio can even inhibit muscle strength and size (which obviously a bodybuilder is concerned with), because I've been helping many posters here try to add muscle/good weight. There's even some studies referring to the heavy reps being best for strength due to muscle fiber recruitment, which I've discussed here in the past.

http://www.trainwiser.com/f109/warning-your-cardio-workout-may-hazardous-your-physique-5898/

Technically, diet aside, the weights first being more advantageous has to do with the metabolism. Heavy weight training requires the most optimal glycogen stores, and those are drained during exercise, especially cardio, so it's usually proven in metabolic aspects, that cardio being last results in the biggest metabolic jump. Heavy weight training (intensely, which is difficult to do after cardio, and I would have to just think that "the heart pumping" is a psychological thing, I can't think of any physiological benefit to be truthful) will spike the metabolism for 24-72 hours, and most cardio bouts spike it for only a matter of several hours to the rest of the day. Fat oxidation is the focus for "weight loss" so you want to maximize your time doing your work, which is best utilized by an "afterburn" as it's called, which is the metabolic boost that occurs post-workout, when the body is still "revved up" from the intensity of a workout.

Cardio also decreases strength output, which was spoken on in the link above.

The other benefit to cardio afterwards (if you do it at all, many serious weight lifters will do it another time, because you are catabolic the second you finish your last set, and muscle is too precious to spend time on cardio when you need to get your shake/supplementation going asap), is that cardio after, if done at all, will often help tremendously with DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness), so you're not limping or moving like you're arthritic the next 3 days, which SUCKS.

I actually (when I would be bulking, which is what I'll do when I get healthy enough to lift again) will eat lots before and after a workout, but that's with the goal of gaining muscle, like a few other members here are working on. On another note, eating extra calories to "out do" your TCB (total calorie burn) is the best way to bulk up, extra calories give your body the signal that it can add extra muscle because it is "reluctant" to do, which is why you'll hear of bodybuilders eating thousands more calories than the average person, and then shaving it off (sorry, hate the word "tone") when they cut, and end up with a show-ready physique. So anyone here who has trouble putting weight on (like several I've helped), but wants it to be healthier weight, you need to remember to outdo your TCB, which would include your exercise/weight training calories burned, just be sure it's good "clean food" and not junk or something that would upset your bowels. In this case, Katie Sue would make an excellent bodybuilder, based on her love of food. 

I'll look for the specific studies, see how many I can muster up from my articles, showing the difference (I'll admit, it's not monumental, but it's there) in doing cardio second, if you want to do it in the same workout.


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## BWS1982

Here's something, but this isn't what I was looking for:

Alwyn Cosgrove, C.S.C.S., author of The New Rules of Lifting, says something here (he's an exercise scientist, that's the letters following his name):

==============================================
"Cardio fatigues muscles, leaving them too tired to do strength training to the best of your ability," says Alwyn Cosgrove, C.S.C.S., author of The New Rules of Lifting. "Doing cardio with a fatigued body doesn't matter because you're going for heart-rate response, not speed." (If running harder is one of your goals, however, your body will be positioned to run farther, faster if you wait at least a day after lifting weights.) Yes, muscles undergo microscopic damage after a workout and need about 48 hours to repair themselves (becoming stronger and larger), but Cosgrove says the back-to-back days of stress won't interfere with your strength gains. Reports to the contrary have been widely exaggerated, he says.

http://www.menshealth.com/cda/advic...rtId=1c74f5b65fa53010VgnVCM100000cfe793cd____

This is only addressing the glycogen aspect, the metabolic one is what I'm still searching for. The reason I stress the need to preserve or build muscle is as you know from doing weights yourself, it is a great way to burn extra fat, as each pound of muscle adds about 30-40 calories burned a day at rest. I'm still looking, but may just come back to it tomorrow.

Edit: okay, too tired, and I'd just like to remind you that if you prefer weights second, and that gets you the most motivated and feels the best, and you like your results, I don't want to seem like I'm telling you you're doing it wrong, I am just recalling some studies, as well as what all the bigger guys would always follow (they actually liked to do HIIT the best, on off days, so they could focus all energy on weights for weight days). I don't want to sound condescending, either. It's a small difference, but it was noted.


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## jessev

A bit off topic here and I apologise if this has been covered before but what are people taking for protein? I was taking Natures own Protein but it seems to mess with my crohns quiet badly, so I tried a few other brands and still no luck so now I have stopped taking Protein supplements completely, I just try to eat as much meat, fish, eggs etc as I can but its hard to get my RDI though.

The same go's with creatine, I have stopped taking that because it was giving me D's bad.


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## pb4

You might want to try L Glutamine as it's known for Aiding gastrointestinal function
In recent studies, glutamine-enriched diets have been linked with intestinal effects including maintenance of gut barrier function, intestinal cell proliferation, and differentiation. It may be used in recovery after gut surgery or in the treatment of gut damage, the treatment of sepsis, and irritable bowel syndrome. This may relate to the fact that the intestinal extraction rate of glutamine is higher than that for other amino acids, and is therefore thought to be the most viable option when attempting to alleviate conditions relating to the gastrointestinal tract.

These conditions were discovered after comparing plasma concentration within the gut between glutamine-enriched and non glutamine-enriched diets. However, even though glutamine is thought to have "cleansing" properties and effects, it is unknown to what extent glutamine has clinical benefits, due to the varied concentrations of glutamine in varieties of food.


It is also known that glutamine has various effects in reducing healing time after operations. Hospital-stay times after abdominal surgery can be reduced by providing parenteral nutrition regimes containing high amounts of glutamine to patients. Clinical trials have revealed that patients on supplementation regimes containing glutamine have improved nitrogen balances, generation of cysteinyl-leukotrienes from polymorphonuclear neutrophil granulocytes and improved lymphocyte recovery and intestinal permeability (in postoperative patients) - in comparison to those who had no glutamine within their dietary regime; all without any side-effects.

There's a very fine line of the amount of creatine to take so that it's beneficial but at the same time doesn't cause D, too much creatine will do that, not enough might not be as effective so I'd suggest you try L Glutamine.


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## pb4

BWS, as a chick I'm not looking to bulk up LOL...and for me, my routine of doing 15 minutes of cardio to start and then proceeding with weights and doing a little more cardio in between works great for me, I'm fairly toned and at 41 I'm quite happy with having a six pack and a lean, toned body...

I work out as early in the day as my bowels will let me, never ever eating before because since having crohn's, I find that after eating (even though I eat healthy now) I just am not mentally comfortable with exercising after eating, I feel lighter and more energized doing it on an empty stomcah (no food, but I do have my chamomile tea first thing when I wake up).  Like I said, I'm happy with my results from the routine I have and I think that each person likely benefits from doing a routine that works for them (individualized so to speak).  For myself I find that doing my 15 min of cardio to start really energizes me in order to lift the amount that I do, the heaviest dumbells I use are 25 lbs but I do also use lighter weights (the lightest being 15) so I basically use 15, 20 and 25.  I also have a weider home gym which I use mostly for my legs but I do a little upper body with it as well.


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## BWS1982

I realize that, which was why I spent the last 48 hours more or less combing through my magazines only to get half way through it to find the studies I recall. I'm glad it is working for you the way you've been doing it, the difference was minimal at best, but it was there, for metabolic reasons, which is for fat metabolism. I posted what I did because it was germane to the several members here focused on gaining weight, but was not in response as much to your goals (only in solely muscle preserving aspects though). For a female to attain visible abdominal muscles is a rare feat, so I am glad your routine works for you. It is of most importance not to upset our IBD in these areas, because that will cause you to go back further than square one, I've done that (not from pushing myself too hard, from flaring for other reasons and losing 50 pounds of progress and hundreds of hours of work). As I said, you are not wrong in your ways, but I was making a note based off my own research and methods for fat loss. I am aware of your goals, which is what I was/am looking for, still. Not to change your ways (partly because your regimen being Crohns-friendly is goal 1), but to reinforce my statement of more calories burned via a small switchup, which should only be used if it makes no difference in the order to a person, some people could go either way.

I even found many other studies I'm glad I got refreshed on, everything from heart health, relationships, supplementation, muscle building, injury prevention, depression medication, and stress management, careers, family, etc..so I have spent this long on it because I was soaking in all that I found valuable again, even a study on IBD and turmeric supplements, which said it helps greatly.

I also agree on the individualization, because I could point out what music gets me pumped the most, but that is meaningless and naive to try to convince all others they're not getting pumped by not listening to my music, which is where your cardio prior can get you pumped in that mental state. Again, you're not wrong in your methods, I am simply searching for the studies so that my claim isn't just seen as an opinion for somebody that could go either way in cardio vs weights ordering. It can also depend on your goals a bit too, some people could care less if they preserve 6% of their muscle over the long run, because they will get the physique they want still.

Many members here have been concerned with muscle gain, which was what I mostly posted thus far, but then agian, when cutting "weight", one will want to prevent muscle loss as much as possible, which is where protein and resistance training will come in. I will edit into this thread what I find on the cardio-weights order when I find it, but that is not to say your method is inferior, because persistence is the top goal, what good is a method you won't stick too, even if it burns 3% more calories over several months? (which I will admit, some studies could disprove, a study or two isn't biblical in results, it's just evidence).


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## TummyTroubles

Working out makes me so happy!  I think that in general helps my issues.  Stress I think makes me worse too, but when I work out hard Im too tired to be stressed   I havent been able to work out for like a month until today.  I had been doing a little better so I did a run and it was fabulous


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## BWS1982

Eh, all I seemed to find so far (I've been most intrigued by so many health studies more-so, because having Crohns now makes so much of the health prevention/cancer fighters more relevant) is this one, it's the smaller experiment they did, but it was quite a difference (although it probably seems like I'm beating a dead horse at this point, so I'll only look more for this stuff and keep looking for colon cancer and heart health etc.. on my own time, unless anybody here wants me to find more)....here is an experiment Mens Health did, and their findings, verbatim, from Nov. 2003 (I don't have Mens Healths any later than '04, I moved to Muscle and Fitness because the girlfriend got them for free):



> HIT THE GYM BEFORE YOU HIT THE ROAD
> 
> One of the oldest debates in the gym-- right up there with whether women wear thongs for personal pleasure or athletic function-- is the question of whether you should do aerobic exercise before or after weight lifting. To find the answer, we hooked a fit guy to equipment that measures calorie expenditure and reveals how many of those calories come from fat. We had him do identical combinations of aerobics and strength training on 2 different days, once doing aerobics first, once hitting the weights first. The weight workout consisted of 15 sets; the aerobic workout was 20 minutes. Here are the results.
> 
> Weights, then aerobics
> --------Total calories burned.........371
> --------Calories of fat burned........107
> 
> Aerobics, then weights
> --------Total calories burned.........346
> --------Calories of fat burned.........66



Yes, that was their joke about the thongs, but that's how us men are. 

This isn't the actual university study I was seeking, but it was one of the occurances showing the difference, and you can see that both calories, and fat calories, were higher with weights first. Again, if you get better results/focus with aerobics first, and even between sets, and your results are satisfactory, you're not wrong in your ways, this is for those who can go either way and would care to see the difference.

The only other thing I found in all the searching (only half my magazines and articles printed) was Heidi Skolnik, the New York Giants Nutritionist, said in Dec of 2004 in an advice column about time usage in the gym, that "But weight lifting makes you burn more calories between workouts" to a reader. Doesn't tell much, but that the metablic boost ("afterburn") is a big help.

I'm very impressed with your commitment, to have that lean of a body, that dedication, and using weights up to 25 lbs. at 41 years old, is astonishing, especially with IBD, my hat goes off to you, I hope you use your expertise to help motivate others.


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## pb4

BWS 

I applaud you on your knowledge of working out and appreciate you taking the time for everyone here with posting links...I once read a while back that CDers tend to have weaker leg muscles than the general public, I found it odd, it was a while back and don't have all the specifics but I can tell you reading such a statement really pissed me off and makes me work that much harder, especially at my age and given the % of muscle people in general lose each yr with age.

I aint getting any younger but I'm certainly getting stronger, and that is not something everyone can say....BTW, I totally work out to music the entire time I work out and I couldn't imagine not doing so...I listen to a range from the great stuff in the 80's that I grew up on to the variety that is popular today, my teenaged kids think it's great that I love "their music", I always instill in them, it's not how old you are, it's how old you feel, physically and mentally.

Be sure to add any other tips you come across, and yes, it's taken a lot of crunches (and core building exercises) to get my abs to the point they are at now (my 19 yr old daughter is a little sickend by it, hopefully it'll be a motivator for her to stay in shape for her own health).


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## BWS1982

I recall a study that may help you if you haven't tried them already, that when electromyopathy readings were done on the abdominis rectus (ab muscle as we know), the "bicycle move" was the best at activating the ab muscles, it's that funky one where you are on your back and alternate your left knee to the right elbow, then the right knee to the left elbow, in quick succession. I never did them, I prefered the weighted crunches, with heavy weight plates on my chest, while doing situps, because it was heavier that way. I only had abs for about 2 months in 2004 before desiring to bulk again, and hence I lost them when I cranked up the calories and bulked for muscle.

By the way, the "weaker legs" makes me infuriated too. I wonder what they'd have said to me deadlifting my personal best of 405 lbs in 2005 (which works the back and arms too), because later that year I first got Crohns symptoms (that went away on their own after 3 days, and thus I ignored it, and it returned for a Dx in 2006).

I read that for men, at least, while sedentary, you lose 10% of your muscle mass from ages 25 to 50, then from 50 to 80, another 35%, on average, which is a great reason one would "waste away" simply from aging. I don't want to be like that. To have so much control, to get fitter and healthier as you age, and not deteriorate, is more than empowering, and I wish society as a whole would engage in such measures, we'd all be healthier and happier for it. But since that's unlikely, it just makes it that much more special when one does embark on such endeavors.

Maybe it will come to a point where your daughter won't want mom to be one-upping her, and she'll dedicate to it the same. I know if my dad was like that (I wish he was, but first I wish I got to see him), I'd be pushing so much harder to not be the younger and weaker one.


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## pb4

Yup, I do those "bicycle crunches" and I also do the ones where your legs are up in the air and you lift your lower back up and down, those really work the lower abs and I get great results from those and the side crunches and regular crunches as well.

I agree, I wish everyone would take the best care of themselves and engage in regulare exercise.

My daughter exercises but I don't know if she's doing enough to her potential, she is young afterall and even though she works full time she has the time and the energy but she does minimal exercise, I just hope she starts to build it up, but I'm glad she's at least doing something daily...I'm pretty sure it was after she saw my abs that boosted her to start exercising herself.  She always hated gym class (I loved it, but mostly because it lacked the academics all my other classes entailed LOL).

The only area I struggle with some, is my butt (big surprise!!! my butt always seems to be an issue one way or another LOL), I still don't have it the way I'd like it, I want it firmer and more defined but for some reason I'm weak in that area.  It really sucks because back in the day it was one of my best features LOL.  I do lunges and squats, both with dumbells, one in each hand weighing 25lbs each but it's taking forever to completely firm and shape it the way it was (before kids).


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## BWS1982

Perhaps deadlifts would help, they work things in a similar way to squats, but use the upper body more. Or maybe try some incline cardio if you don't already, to perhaps hit the glutes at a different "angle"....If not still, it's just your genetics, the body shrinks the fat cells in the opposite order it enlarged them, so it might just be that long ago, your glute area was the first to lose firmness, so now, it's the last to show firmness...either that, or, it could be a bit of skin from your progress so far, already losing fat there, which would just take some time usually to tighten, if it will.

My problem area was, as for most males, the abdominal area, it's the last to go for most guys. Carb cycling and lots of dedication finally made it give in. I remember I ate a lot of cookies on Christmas Day 2003, so later I went for a 5 mile jog in the snow to cope.  

But I hated gym class (except soccer and basketball, I still played those), because back then I was a nerd who got wedgies and pushed down on the track and skinned up, clothes were stolen, locker broken into.....I had to wait as many of the boys grew up quite slowly.


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## jessev

BWS1982 said:
			
		

> My problem area was, as for most males, the abdominal area, it's the last to go for most guys. Carb cycling and lots of dedication finally made it give in. I remember I ate a lot of cookies on Christmas Day 2003, so later I went for a 5 mile jog in the snow to cope.
> .


yeah couldnt agree more, I just cant shake that little gut ive got .. its reduced alot in size in the last months but still far from being flat. 

I have developed a simliar mind set, although not as bad .. If i have a hard weekend on the alcohol (which includes all the junk food you eat when you drink) I will make sure i do 10kms on the cross trainer every night for the following week.


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## pb4

WOW!  I had no idea that abs was a tough one for guys, although I guess it explains why my hubby has a beer gut and doesn't even drink beer LOL, yet the rest of his body, ass, arms, legs are hard as a rock and very much muscelure.  He does a ton of walking (he's a commercial electrician) and he pulls a lot of wire and does a lot of physical on the job so it always amzes me that he even has the gut but the rest of him looks great.

Ya, I was pretty much chalking my issue up to being genetics...I've often heard/read that diet and exercise can only do so much if your genetics aren't with ya but rather against ya.  But thanks for the tips BWS, I will definitely give it a go.

Gym class was pretty rough on you eh...that sucks, you are right though, it does take a long time for boys to grow up, I know a few that haven't yet LOL!


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## BWS1982

Yep, for males, the ab area, biologically, is usually the last to go. Pick up any mens workout mag and you'll usually see some sort of abs routine or trick to reel them in (other than the big big muscular ones, which will more so talk towards max muscle gains or strength gains, or shedding fat, but many of those are actually for juicers, like "FLEX")...It's a guy thing to have to work on that last usually. I think that's one of the reasons it's so special when we get to it, because it's so rare, and the women know this, which is why it's usually a universal sign of lean physiques, although, the hardest thing to do is to have a lot of muscle AND abs showing, naturally. Any skinny guy can usually shrink down and get them popping (looking at you David Beckham), but to still actually have substantial mass on you by the end is the real feat (like the Rock), because your body hates having muscle around and prefers the fat (costs fewer calories by far), so dropping down and keeping lots of Lean Body Mass is, in my eyes, the Ark of fitness for males. 

All I've read states for you females, the butt and thighs are often the hardest.


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## pb4

Yummy, David Beckham....sorry, whenever I think of him I get all lost and dreamy LOL!

My son (15 who'll be 16 in March) is built lean like myself, he plays baseball, and this yr in high school decided to take on football, he needs to bulk up some, he works out with weights and has great muscle tone (and awesome abs of course because he's lean, athletic and works out) but I want to put him on some protein shakes only I'm concerned because I don't know what would be effective and totally safe for him still growing and I don't want to cause any issues with stomach problems or anything...any suggestions??? He's currently 5'6" and I'm not 100% on his weight because we don't own a scale.  I know he's going to want to play football again next yr because he loved it so much, but it took him a while to realize that he can hit/take down a large player (so long as he does it correctly) without hurting himself and that boosted his ego some but I know he'd really like to be "thicker".

We do eat a lot of protein but he's not bulking up any.

And yes, I'm living proof that the butt and thighs can definitely be a challange.


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## BWS1982

He may have to have a funeral (temporarily) for those abs, because calories are where his focus needs to be. Most of my reading and own experience and friend's experiences, all show that when you eat right and eat lots, while working out hard, around 70-90 % of gained pounds over time will be muscle, so he doesn't have to worry about getting your husbands belly anytime soon  He should shoot for about a pound a week in gains, and most will be muscle. For example, Orlando Bloom for the movie Kingdom of Heaven, gained 20 pounds for his role in the war movie, and about 18 was muscle. Done right, his abs may even still show, but he shouldn't hold that a priority, and I'll get to why.

Overall, slow healthy carbs, protein, and calories, healthy fats, and lots of liquids and sleep. Any bodybuilder not on steroids (and the ones on them will still know this is true for non-steroid people) will say you can't chase 2 rabbits at once, both will get away. That is to say, he will have to go after one rabbit (size and extra muscle)...he's okay on the safety side, to pack it on, testosterone peaks around 18 and into a guy's twenties and then (being sedentary) will fall in the 30's...so he's good to go on that front, he won't stunt his growth as long as he doesn't mess with more than protein or creatine or the likes of the natural healthy supplements (creatine should be fine, the body makes it all day long on it's own and it is naturally in beef and pork products already, 1 lb of beef has about 1 gram of it already, so 5 grams supplementation is no big deal)...I wish I had all these studies on the computer and not in health magazines, but creatine can help with gains up to twice as fast in high responders, and it's completely safe, thousands of studies short and long term, can't find problems with it. I even talked my veggie friend into it, and he tried to find negative studies on the net, and came back to me and said he literally couldn't find any. The older concerns long ago were it is hard on the kidney's but that has long been dispelled over and over again. The only concern for "stomach problems" would be if the creatine may upset him because he's already got issues, but for me, for example, I took creatine for 3 years before Crohns, and then stopped it for only about 3 months, started it again, AND got INTO remission while still on it, and kept that remission, working out to acheive the physique in the small pics in my signiture, all while still "having" Crohns, but in remission.

He will have to eat at least 500 to 1000 calories over his maintenence level, and maybe even more if football has him doing lots of conditioning. The body only puts on muscle when it notices a constant surplus of calories signifying there's no shortage, and extra muscle is doable. Normally, since we all know muscle, per 1 pound, burns about 30-50 calories a day at rest, that it's expensive for the metabolism, and fat is around 2-3 calories a day. So if you drop below a certain amount, the body gets all efficient on us and stops burning fat, and gets rid muscle, because it isn't "necessary" and it prepares for a famine. The body will actually "digest" it's own muscle for energy if you show it a reason to. Well, after a bit the hormone levels (especially the high testosterone in males) will begin to shift in what bodybuilders call a bulk, and it basically says "what the hey, you've got plenty of food around it seems, I'll allow the muscle fibers to grow, no risk here"...

The high protein (I'd say for a growing teen trying to get muscle at 150 lbs., for an example, would be fine with between 120-170 grams of protein a day) is a great start, as you know well it's the building blocks. The slow carbs will help "shuttle" the protein there, carbohydrate gets the name from hydration (well, and carbon) and it helps to transport that protein, slow will help keep his energy and this "shuttling" a constant pace. He doesn't "require" creatine, it's just a cheap and safe way to trick the body into delivering even MORE of this hydration and protein than it normally would without supplementation.

I've rambled a good bit, but the long and short is he needs lots of healthy food, from healthy sources (healthy fats will help add up calories quick so he can get upwards of 3000 or even more, you'd be surprised if you look online for how many a growing active, teenage boy burns, 3000 may just be enough to keep him the same size)....I'll copy and paste some other links or PM you some stuff I do have on my laptop talking about gaining muscle or diet or creatine etc... if you want, but for now, hope this not only gives tips, but also explains them (very important, a tip is meaningless if the "why" isn't given IMO)


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## pb4

THANK YOU!!!!  Excellent and thorough info (as I kinda expected from you LOL).

I will try to get him to eat more, this will be a challange because he's soooo picky, always has been...one of his favorite fats is butter, I know this cuz when he was little he had a chipped front tooth and he used to sneak bites right out of the block of butter in the fridge (weird kid eh) although I think he gave that habit up (at least we all hope so).

The only thing I wonder about though is, like I mentioned, he's built like me (especially when I was his age) and although I'm female, at that age and for many years after (into my 20's although I did get sick with CD at 23 just before turning 24) I could eat as much as I wanted and anything I wanted (and I certainly did that) and not gain an ounce (yes, my friends HATED me, well my metabolism at least).  So I'm wondering if he may have the same speedy metabolism if not faster because unlike him I was not involved in any extra curricular activities...I just walked a lot (out side of phys ed which ended for me after grade 10).  I guess what I'm saying is from my own experiance, putting weight on is not always as easy as it sounds, but maybe the main ingredient is lifting heavy weights and eating a ton of extra calories is key?


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## BWS1982

Yep, that's pretty much all he can do at this point, is "out-eat" his metabolism...Ectomorphs vs endomorphs, I recall that a good bit, I think I was pretty evenly in the middle for the most part. Suffice it to say, science hasn't really created much in the way of "slowing" the metabolism, not much call for it in the mainstream.  Though, I'd bet many scientists and researchers have knowledge of "how" to do this, it's not really widely used or practiced or sold. One thing many football coaches around here would tell the guys is to eat a lot before bed, but make it large amounts of healthy food, at my school, they had the bigger defensive linemen and others who needed to gain size, eat I think it was 3 Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwiches before bed with a glass of milk eat night. Has his coach given him any guidelines on gaining the size, is he perhaps limiting his conditioning if he's already fit enough or anything? (probably wouldn't do that unless it was further into the season and it was a desperate move)

He'll have to find some calorically dense foods he likes, like sub sandwiches or lean pizza, I choose a lot of almonds, peanuts, and lots of oatmeal and cereal because I could get a good 1000 to 1500 extra calories a day with just those on top of all the protein and slow carbs. Fats have 9 cals a gram, as opposed to the 4 cals a gram for carbs/protein, so they add up quicker, which is why any fattening foods always pack it in when you look at the nutrition facts.

My uncle sneaked some butter sticks when he was a kid, my grandma told stories. Sounds disgusting to me. Maybe he could buy some healthy breads he likes, and spread some butter on toast, for just a couple slices a day? Not too much saturated fat in just 2 slices of toast with it there, and it would have him eating the bread while he's at it.


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## pb4

Thanks again for the info....I can't see myself having him eat large quantities before bed, that's just not good for the digestive system, and being a CDer myself I would worry too much that doing so might cause issues...He does enjoy toast with lots of honey on it.

I will share all the info you've given to me with him and hopefully he'll be able to incorporate most of it into his life in order to bulk up some.

What is it with some peoples obsession to eat plain old butter???? LOL


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## Jeff D.

Good post Benson.  

pb4 having your son eat before bed will not cause any harm if he eats properly.  He shouldn't eat a lot of chocolate or sweets but if he had some carbs and some good fats then he will be okay.  Like Benson said that giving your son some peanut butter sandwiches before bed could help him a lot.

I'm a southerner we love our butter.


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## BWS1982

I would kind of think the same as what Jeff said, but it can be individual, if one has a tendency to get an irritated stomach after eating before bed then it can be toned down a bit, but that's just a method I know of for bulking. Many people I know have gotten up in the middle of the night just for an extra meal (though those are pro athletes/bodybuilders). It would depend largely on what it is he'd eat though, as Jeff said. Chips, candy, soda, etc... would be bad, but regular "wholeome" food "normally" shouldn't create issues, but it can if one is sensitive to a full stomach at night I suppose. It's common for me to consider it I guess, just because I eat about 8 meals a day.

When I would work out in the evenings (like midnight), I had to eat a good bit of food before bed, because large meals should envelope the workout timeframe, it never bothered me, I'd have a couple sandwiches or something with my shake (turkey breast and swiss cheese)....PB & J shouldn't be "harmful" per se, unless you think it would make him sick eating before bed. That's really a common thing for SOME bodybuilders and athletes, but if it's going to upset him or if he's prone to IBD or you're worried, it can be skipped. In general, it's not a big deal for the GI system to handle some food overnight, as our intestines every night have something in them, this time it's just that the food would start in the stomach. Digestion slows at night, but doesn't "stop". It's totally up to you and your son, no pressure, just a suggestion based off experiences. 

Does he like oatmeal or Farina? That's a good one, a big bowl of it, mix in some honey and Peanut Butter, it could easily top off at 800 calories in a bowl, and have lots of fiber and nutrients and be low in saturated fat, good protein, etc... especially if made with milk or what I like to do, mix in protein powder.

Does your son have a gym regimen that he was given to also help with size gains? He can have it tailored to maximize hypertrophy (fancy shmancy name for muscle fiber growth)...


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## pb4

Thanks Jeff and BWS 

I know he snacks soon before bed, apples, bananas and he'll even have his honey toast a bit before bed as well with no issues that I know of...can't imagine why whenever I ask how his stools look or ask how many times a day on average he goes and if he ever feels like he has any issues with his bowel habits or anything can send a teenaged boy running from a room fast LOL...so I know I'm just being overly concerned but it cannot be helped especially since his older sister (19 in Jan) has been experiancing bowel issues so we're now in the process of getting her into a GI.

He hates oatmeal and peanut butter, he really limits himself from the kinds of foods he should be eating, I mean, he loves olives and all fruits and rice and chicken and steak but that's about it (besides junk foods which is mostly Doritos chips).

He definitely has been given a booklet from baseball camp that he just started and this camp is really geared at these exercises in order for him to build muscle and strength (although I must say at his age (15 going on 16) the kid has amazing speed and strength and I'm not just saying that because I'm his mom, but this kid out-runs every other kid on every team he's ever been on, get throw 68mph ( no wind either) and can throw that baseball from centre field right into the back-catchers glove before the kid on second base has a clue to what the hell just happend....it's dubbed simply as "THE THROW".

With all that said I'm just looking for safe and effective ways of putting a little bulk on this kid, although I certainly don't want him to become mammoth or anything, though I'm sure he'd like to be...personally I think most females prefer a leaner but muscular build rather than really mammoth looking.  Besides, nothing worse then when overly huge guys stop working out and turn into what my hubby likes to refer to as "muscle bulk", where they just look stalky but not formed/toned anymore unless they put on a good flex which usually wares them out in about 20 seconds because they've become so out of shape...yup, seen that happen to some poor guys.

anywho, thank you both and should you think of anything eles, be sure to let me know.


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## BWS1982

This might sound odd, and I wouldn't recommend it going overboard, but some Doritos have no trans fats at all, and 2 servings a day would be a little over 300 calories. They have I think it was 7 grams total fat, and only 1 of it is saturated, and with 85% or so of the fats being healthy ones, 2 grams of fiber in those 2 servings, it could be just enough to bump his intake, without being unhealthy really, since he's so active, it would just end up being corn, healthy oils, salt, cheese, some preservatives/flavoring, and no trans fats (you have to check, even though it says zero, some of them have a minute amount, less than 0.5 grams....but then again, if I remember, Canada has banned them, so they all may be truly zero grams, not "rounded zero grams" like some of our foods)........I wouldn't call Doritos health food, but the worst thing about them would just be the salt and additives for color/taste/preserves....300 extra calories a day may give him a boost and allow a little more growth, but there's not much to them in protein.

I think the size thing for women can depend on the interpretation of "muscular", as that varies, some women would call David Beckham muscular, when other's will say he's too scrawny (including myself  )....I think a good size that many women like is Daniel Craig or Vin Diesel, but I've noticed it varies.....Personally, I want to be about like these, and I was well on my way at several points, but Crohns keeps starting me from square one all the time: 

http://www.luf1976.com/mens_health/mh410.jpg 

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q29/djennings17/DwayneJohnson.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c65/guntherschwass/VinDiesel.jpg

(now most women would drool over a body like that, and they have some mass too) OH, and also, you only lose muscle mass and become flabby if you stop working out, you don't use it, you lose it, so why stop using it? I plan on being fit for many decades, I aim to lift heavy stuff until I can't, and even then, I'll push myself to lift the heaviest stuff I can.


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## pb4

Well my son certainly indulges in a lot of Doritos and probably more than he should but as you mentioned he's likely just getting too much salt out of that deal, but I'll let him be with them.

The first link of that guy on the magazine is (in my mind) purrrfect LOL,  The Rock's body is also acceptable (to me LOL) but vin Diesel does nothing for me, his boobies are too big for my liking in comparison to the rest of his proportion....but I'm picky ha ha.

My hubby stopped and it's weird, he's not toned like he was but when he flexes, there is is and even when he's not flexing his legs especially feel like rock hard, but he started lifting at a young age, 12-13 and continued until about 17 and then over the yrs did it on and off (working full time, a wife and a couple of kids can take time away from working out, losing desire doesn't help either, but like my son he was physically active since a young age and even up until a couple of yrs ago still engaged in playing hockey once a week, makes a big difference.  He's not very tall, 5'7" but the guy has the most killer legs, they're beautiful and when he works out his calves explode, he can't pull his socks over them, women have often commented to him about his legs (even my family members LOL).  I guess playing soccer and hockey for enough yrs will help with that.

He just needs to work on his gut, his legs, butt and arms are very tight but he is 40 afterall, not an excuse but most know that if you don't keep yourself fit, by 35-40 for men especially their tummies seem to really buldge (like a pregnant lady).

We argue back and forth about sit-ups or crunches, I believe crunches are more effective and better for the lower back and he believes sit-ups are the way to go (either way I wish he'd start doing one of them), he's well educated when it comes to stuff like working out so I'm sure he knows how to get rid of his gut, it's just a matter of time and really wanting to.


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## BWS1982

Well, situps or crunches, either one, are not the most optimal way to burn fat, they burn very few calories (once read it takes tens of thousands of them to burn a pound of fat), and simply work the muscles underneath any fat. I would assume you got your own abs showing through vigorous dedication to exercise and diet, much more-so than your ab work. I'm pretty certain it's because the abs are relatively small, slow twitch muscle fibers, so when you need to shed fat to get lean, small muscle work isn't that effective. The ab work makes them more noticable once bodyfat is low enough, because it works the muscles well, it's just not great for getting the fat on top to thin out. Fat burning is really done well through high intensity exercising IMO, that's mostly how I trimmed the last bit off a few years ago before Crohns. I did weighted situps to make the abs pop more because more resistance is better than more volume at making them more shapely, usually, but to get the fat off there, I carb cycled, which is a common bodybuilding method of fat shedding. Yes, it gets harder and harder though as you age, for metabolic and hormonal reasons.


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## pb4

Yes, I also believe diet has played a huge roll in being able to develop the abs that I have, plus I'm lean so that's probably helpful in showing them as well.  Plus usually a day or 2 a week I'll do just intense aerobics so I'm sure that as well helps with my abs (plus the cardio I do 4 days a week when I do my routine work out.

Aging definitely makes it harder but I could only imagine where I'd be right now if I hadn't been working out for as long as I have which is about 7 yrs.  Since I do it to stay slim and the benefits of mental/emotional health and my CD I'm pretty happy because it's not like I'm doing it for organized competition so I'm only having to put so much pressure on myself to be where I'm at, now I'm basically just maintaining and that's good enough for me.


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## Jeff D.

Also doing crunches with fat on abs will only make you appear more fat as your abs puch the fat out more as they get bigger.


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## pb4

Really Jeff...that's weird because I still had some flab/fat on my abs while doing crunches and I never noticed that, I just got more toned as time went by...huh, that is strange.


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## Jeff D.

Were you doing cardio during the same period of time you did the crunches?  If you are doing cardio then you are burning off the fat on your stomach but without doing at least some cardio and just doing some crunches then you will see the abs get larger and larger as the muscle from underneath the fatty layer grows bigger.


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## BWS1982

Yes, what Jeff said, it's an overall effect on the midsection, eating right+ cardio+ab work= rippling abs.....but ab work alone will not complete the "equation"

One COULD acheive visible abs with just cardio, or just working out, and eating right, ab work isn't necessary, but they most of the time won't be impressive abs, unless genetics just has the perfect formula, which most models have on their side in the first place. But, this equation, the one above, is why abs are so impressive, and so treasured by many (I think being muscular with it is the hardest), because it takes all those ingredients. You'd see many more people with abs if 200 situps a day would get them to appear. Stringent diet, intensive, consistent exercise, and ab work is much harder, hence their infrequent occurance.


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## pb4

Jeff D. said:
			
		

> Were you doing cardio during the same period of time you did the crunches?  If you are doing cardio then you are burning off the fat on your stomach but without doing at least some cardio and just doing some crunches then you will see the abs get larger and larger as the muscle from underneath the fatty layer grows bigger.




Yes, I always do cardio before my work out, when I work out my arms I do my abs last, and the days I work out my legs I do my abs first, but I always do cardio before using weights and doing abs, so I guess that explains that


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## schnicken

"Many people told me I may have pushed myself too hard with weights and made myself prone to my joint issues, when what I knew and the dr's told me was that Crohns has been doing it. I never felt better than when I was always working out, mentally and physically. I always tell people that your bone density and tensil strength is increased, not brought down, by heavy lifting."

So true.  The rise in my BMD is proof enough.


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## jessev

Hi All, 

Hope have all been well. 

Bringing back a thread from the dead! but I was searching on Google and remembered about this thread and thought I would give an update and maybe get some new advice around the topic. 

Ive been training for about a year and half now and although in my original post I suggested that training was doing me more harm then good it certainly wasn't the case for very long, i think what contributed to that flare up was my diet rather then the training. Since then I have actually been pretty healthy, probably the healthiest ive been my entire life with maybe 2 flares up in that time and both haven't stuck around for too long, im sure my exercise and better eating habits have been the main reason behind this. 

Anyway i ended up losing all the fat I wanted, my stomach was pretty much flat I got down to about 60kgs (132lbs) which is pretty light for a male but i have a small frame, most of this was due to a lot of dedication around my cardio work and eating right. So my next goal was muscle gain, I didnt really know much about bodybuilding so i hired a personal trainer 3 times a week for about 3-6 months and since then have just trained on my own, although initially i was very happy with the results I now feel like i am no where near big enough for some one who has been training 4 days a week for at least the last 12 months? I increased my food intake by x2 and still haven't noticed huge gains in fact i actually can tell ive put on some fat around my gut, I don't know if im just being impatient or if there is other factors like maybe some of the medications or c.d its self is effecting the rate I can put on muscle? I am sure you are reading this and thinking "*he doesn't train hard enough!* " its not the case at all, I train my arse off most days, even when I train with friends who are much bigger then me they are surprised at how hard I work. 


So i guess apart from a good old vent, my question was has any one else noticed very slow muscle building, its worth to note im on Remicade and Imuran. 

Thanks,
Jesse

*edit* BMS (if your still around) I would love to know of any studies that you knew of on people with crohns disease and bodybuilding, I looked around myself on google, which is what lead me back to this thread lol.


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