Can a high temperature cure Crohns?

[Hope345]

If a high temp can cure cancer, what could it do for IBD patients?

And why is this treatment not being used in the U.S.?

There is a different kind of cancer treatment called the German Cancer Therapy. Peter Busch M.D. in Philadelphia discovered that high temperatures kill cancer cells in the year 1868. He was a German American doctor who found out that a person's fever of 105 to 107 degrees actually kills cancer cells. When your body has a fever, it is your immune system at work. If the high temperature is only temporary, then it does not harm the body. It leaves your healthy cells, but causes the cancer cells to die.

Read more: German Cancer Therapy | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5509140_german-cancer-therapy.html#ixzz2KMPOVPOM

I am definitely looking into this!!!

 

[kiny]

Don't know what it is about in relationship to cancer, don't know anything about it or heard about it.

But the fever in relationship to the immune system...during an infection the first responders are macrophages and they release not only the inflammatory cytokine that bring more leukocyte to the site of infection, their signaling makes the brain release prostaglandin and you get fever and many pathogens get into issues during the fever and die off or become vulnerable. I think that almost everyone I ask who has crohn's disease had onset of fever (or night sweats without realising it's fever induced) is interesting. Fever is a defense mechanism of the innate immune system.

If you look at old pictures of white fathers working in Africa you can see that many people with serious infections are sweating in their bed, it's their primary immune system raising body temperature to help during the infection, they get fever and as a result they sweat because the body is helping trying to regulate body temperature. Very common during TB infections.

In school we had these collections, to help people in Africa, to stop TB and leprosy, two mycobacterial disease, called 11.11.11, and usually they showed lots of images of white fathers, especially Father Damien, who died of Leprosy trying to help people with Leprosy, that's where I remember all those black and white shots of people sweating in their beds from with the very high fevers. Now they have much better treatment in Africa, so it's harder to find the same images. But I think it's interesting in relationsip to crohn's disease.

 

[Hope345]

What if we made the mistake of giving acetaminaphen/ibuprophen to a person fighting off an infection? the higher temperatures are what can help kill the bacteria.

That could be part of the problem. I have given Tylenol to both my children when their fevers got too high. Although my older daughter tended to run as high as 105 which was extremely high, as a toddler, but maybe it kept her from getting something like Crohns.

Crohns deals with intracellular cell-deficient bacterium which may or may not be affected by temperature. I will need to do more research.

Africa: We usually sweat when the fever is breaking. Were we giving those people in Africa, something to break their fevers? It would be interesting to find out...

 

[kiny]

Not sure, there's a limit for everything. People who had infections in Africa for example before there was really good treatment were treated for both the fevers and the inflammation. You would give them anti-inflammatories that made the infection temporarily worse, because everything has limits, even fevers and inflammation, even during infections you treat the fevers and the inflammation, regardless of the effect on the infection, otherwise these people suffered from organ damage, nerve damage etc.

Things like 6mp and infliximab can make certain infections worse (like TB) but sometimes it's much more important to lower the inflammation first to limit any damage and then treat the infection, 6mp for example is not only used in people who have crohn's disease or organ transplants, it's used in people with infections sometimes, to put a halt to the acute inflammation, fevers, pain, and then it's stopped and antibiotics are used.

 

[D Bergy]

Back in the day prior to modern antibiotics, they would intentionally infect someone with Malaria to treat Syphilus. The high temperatures would kill off the bacteria.

Malaria was used to treat other diseases also, but I don't recall them right now.

I have never heard of hyperthermia being used as Crohn's treatment, but it is an interesting concept.

Dan

 

[nogutsnoglory]

Wouldn't the idea be that fever suggests the body (immune system) at work? I don't know if we would want that with N autoimmune disease where the body is essentially attacking itself.

 

[Malgrave]

Interesting!!!

My son has never had "real" fever and the 5 times he has had it, it has always been mild, never above 38 celsius degrees. During the last two years I have been wondering many times if this strange thing is related to his very severe Crohn like disease...

Now when the doctors started to suspect that he might have some sort of primary immune deficiency causing his problems, I am quite sure that this lack of fever is somehow related to his immune deficiency and IBD!

 

[Hope345]

I have been in contact with Dr/Professor Borody and he was the one that told me
intracellular cell-deficient bacterium are not affected by temperature.
I am sure they have done quite a bit of research, but I think they should do more!!!

Since they have not found a cure, they need to back track and see what they missed.

I want to announce from the roof tops, Cancer can be cured with a temperature!!

I think it is all connected: temperature, endocrine system, ph in the digestive tract, inability for some to digest nutrients, the inflammation, and the body attacking itself or the bacteria in the gut.... we just need to connect the dots.

They have been pretty successful treating the symptoms, but the key is to find out what is causing it.

 

[SarahBear]

What if we made the mistake of giving acetaminaphen/ibuprophen to a person fighting off an infection? the higher temperatures are what can help kill the bacteria.

I think you have to be unconscious to avoid the high temperature harming any healthy cells. I'm not certain, as I haven't looked into it in a while, but that was the way I understood it. Without anesthesia, you can't ensure that someone is going to stay asleep so it would be dangerous to allow the temperature to rise / continue.

 

[Hope345]

I know, I always thought to give it to myself and family during a bug, to feel better. During a procedure, that involves more...

I am just trying to think out of the box... our bodies try to fight off a bug naturally with the temperature rise in our bodies.

also, if cancer is caused from a bacteria, which I did not know, I can see why Dr Borody's treatment involves killing the bacteria in a Crohns patient.

Also noted in the treating cancer with temperature: at 105-107 degrees F, it killed only the bacteria and not the good cells. Above that temp. would be very harmful.
*chemo and radiation treatment kill good cells and the cancer cells

 

[D Bergy]

For more info on hyperthermia combined with frequency based cancer treatment Google "Oncotherm".

Dan

 

[Beach]

Something else that is being looked at for killing cancer cells, and has an association with the SCD diet some follow here on the Crohn's sight - diet wise with cancer, recently there has been renewed interest in Otto Warburg's work. Warburg won a nobel prize for showing that cancer cells are unique in that their growth is fueled by glucose. As a result, some have wondered if lower carbohydrate diets would slow or possibly reverse cancers growth.

Recall this article on Dr. Eade's sight about a small trial done, restricting carbohydrates, with patients considered to have terminal cancer. The results were promising.

"Carbohydrates are addictive"

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/carbohydrates-are-addictive/

excerpt from Dr. Eade's article:

....A group in Germany is looking at such diets in a small pilot study. Patients are only admitted to the study when all standard therapies – chemotherapy, radiation, surgery, etc. – have failed and they have basically been sent home to die. In fact, a few were so far gone that they died within the first week of starting the study. You couldn’t ask for a study group more destined for failure, but, according to the Times article

The good news is that for five patients who were able to endure three months of carb-free eating, the results were positive: the patients stayed alive, their physical condition stabilized or improved and their tumors slowed or stopped growing, or shrunk.

If you understand the Warburg effect and the metabolism of cancer cells, it’s easy to see why this therapy works, even in patients who at at death’s door. Since the cancers can use only glucose, and since glucose is made in the cancer cells slowly and inefficiently, the cancer cells have to rely on outside glucose to provide nourishment for their rapid growth and replication. People on very-low-carb diets produce ketones, which take the place of glucose in other cells that can use these ketones for fuel. But cancer cells can’t use the ketones since ketones have to be burned in the mitochondria, which are dysfunctional in cancer cells. If you can keep blood sugar low, then growth of the cancer cells may be held in check long enough for the body’s own previously overwhelmed immune system to rally and beat the vulnerable cancer back.

Now, given all this, if you had a big cancer eating you alive and you were offered a chance for salvation by doing nothing more than following a low-carb diet, would you take it? I certainly would. But, not everyone does. I was stunned to read the comments of Dr. Melanie Schmidt, one of the researchers, about people dropping out of the study....

I've seen a few more recent write-ups about testing the Warburg diet on Dr. Feinman's sight:

https://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/

 

[Hope345]

This is all so interesting.
I wish I could just take in all the info and try to put it all together.

The strangest part is when you get Crohns, the first thing they do is put you on a high carb diet. The low fiber diet pushes you towards white breads, white rice and things like Rice Crispies. This is totally in contradiction to this theory.

This all fits once again. It explains why a very healthy diet is so important. It points to a bacteria that feeds off of sugars.

The question still remains: Do the bacteria, whether cancer or Crohns attack because the persons immune system has failed them genetically?

 

[Beach]

Yeah, I was wondering the same, what would be the trigger(s).

I posted this in another thread, but it could fit here too. It was about how in a small study a healthy gut flora could influence whether a person developed diabetes or not. If I remember correctly, those with diabetes tend to be at elevated risk for developing different cancers.

"Gut bacteria may strongly influence inflammation, obesity, and diabetes"

http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=51021876189adc8125a6a9578&id=5606bf8304&e=7010320a2b

excerpt from Robb Wolf's article:

...The crack in the Insulin Hypotheses started for me when I became aware of the ability of LPS to induce insulin resistance…literally in seconds or minutes. If we can induce a raging diabetic state in humans and other critters with just a bacterial overload…what does that mean for the focus on insulin spiking as has been commonly discussed? I think once one is sick and experiencing this inflammation, it is likely smart to decrease carbohydrate load to decrease the potential of further complications with an already insulin resistant individual.

But this study is intriguing in that the individual was eating a carby, whole grain diet. Even in the study looking at type 2 diabetic heart patients (see Staffan Lindeberg’s work for this) eating either a Paleo or Mediterranean diet, we saw dramatic improvements in the paleo group, despite a reasonable amount of carbs. Interestingly, the Mediterranean group did not show dramatic improvements. If you are sick and overrun with pathogenic bacteria, could a paleo diet help you to clear those bacteria, whereas a grain based diet might need anti-microbials like those found in the traditional Chinese herbs and pre-biotics? If you recall, Staffan Lindeberg also performed a Paleo vs Mediterranean diet in pigs and the Paleo approach showed much lower inflammation and immune cell infiltration into the pancreas (a likely precipitator for autoimmunity).

I honestly have way more questions than answers at this point, but this is very exciting research. It seems clear that modern foods affect gut flora in a very negative way, and restoring a healthy gut flora is critical for reversing a variety of diseases. There is some research indicated various parasites can influence host behavior in a way that benefits the parasite…could this be at play in this case? Could pathogenic bacteria alter human behavior in a way that makes changing eating patterns tough? Again, lots of questions, not many answers....

 

[mf15]

Just watch yourself with high temperatures,my brother when he was a baby had a real high
temp 105-106 cant remember,anyhow he went into convulsions,had to get his temp down real fast. This was 50 some years ago,I was not that old myself so cant remember too many details. Anyhow no damage,brother is still fine today.
Old Mike

 

[Hope345]

Beach: I am not going to stray from the gut bacteria as part of the main problem that is for sure. But I cant help but think that a Crohns or Cancer patient is lacking in the ability to fight them off. Is it their endocrine system? Maybe.

imf15, We have been told all our lives that a high temperature is bad. I believe it can get too high and cause damage. But a normal response to infection is often a temperature, and if the body is able to fight it off, without going too high (over 105), it might actually help. All of our meds have acetaminophen or ibuprofen that bring down the temperature and help the person feel better for a while. I wont be so quick to give or use them any more.

 

[kiny]

The question still remains: Do the bacteria, whether cancer or Crohns attack because the persons immune system has failed them genetically?

If a bacteria enters in someone, macrophages surround them and control them, they signal to other leukocyte to come on over and they will raise body temperature by signaling the brain.

The adaptive immune system is the third defense after the innate and fever response. Lymphocyte consist of B and T cells. As long as they're not attacking and reside in the lymph node they're called naive, when they see an anitgen they become activated.

-B cells produce antibodies, it's the antibody-mediated response
-T cells directly attack pathogens, it's the cell-mediated response

Many white blood cells, like B cells, macrophages, dentric cells, can show when they found a pathogen, they become APC, antigen-presenting cells, they break the antigen down and show other cells and shout: We found something, come and look and bind to it. They present the antigen, they show every other cell that something is going on.

T Cell will respond and bind to it and it will release cytokine and tons of T cells and B cells will now split up and multiply, all knowing exactly what to do, all knowing there is a threat. Some of them become cells actively fighting the pathogens, others become memory cells and they stand aside and remember what the pathogen was for next time, the next time this same pathogens enters the immune response will be much faster since adaptive immune system adapted and remembers the antigen.

People with crohn's disease have genetic immunodeficiencies and can not correctly handle this all, they don't have the right cytokine response, they are deficient in macrophage function and deficient in autophagy function. It's possible that crohn's disease is simply a chronic infection. The deficiencies are specifically in respect to intracellular bacteria.


This is something entirely different than the theory that we have an uncontrolled response against our own indigenous flora consisting of commensals, which I believe is not what is going on, simply because the disease in crohn's disease is transmural and is patchy. I don't want to rule it out, but the genetic immunodeficiencies are related to intracellular pathogens, not to our own flora.

Another reason why the gut flora response does not make complete sense to me is because of the lymphatic drainage issues and simply all the lymphocyte responding. For that to happen some macrophage or dentric cell has become an APC and invoked this response, the huge number of T cells are a response from the lymphatics to an APC who found a pathogen. If the immune system can not control the pathogen because of immunodeficiencies you'd get more and more APC, more and more response from the adaptive immune system and eventually inflammation all over the intestine, crohn's disease.

 

[Beach]

Beach: I am not going to stray from the gut bacteria as part of the main problem that is for sure. But I cant help but think that a Crohns or Cancer patient is lacking in the ability to fight them off. Is it their endocrine system? Maybe.

Well, I am one that has a difficult time keeping warm. I can easily keep the house at 80F during the summer and feel comfortable - to the annoyance of others. A nice hot shower or the few times I've had them, a sauna makes me feel better too.

 

[Hope345]

Kiny, I am going to have to spend a couple of days digesting all your info..

I already have a ton of questions. but i will try to understand it myself first.

Beach: I can see why so many people fly south for the winter. Better health too.

 

[Beach]

I'll have to give this a try! Little bit different than the treatment mentioned in Germany it sounds like but I have access to a sauna. I can suffer for science to see if it improves my condition.

 

[D Bergy]

I don't want to rain on the parade, but I have a Sauna in my house, and had one in my last house also. I started getting symptoms in spite of using them for years prior.

Both my parents are of Finnish descent, so the Sauna was often the way we washed instead of showering or taking a bath. I still prefer it to either.

You cannot get your core temperature up that way, because you will pass out long before it changes at all. Laying unconcious in the Sauna is not a good idea. I fell asleep in mine once and was way overheated when I woke up. Dizzy and ill feeling for a while.

It is a good way to get rid of toxins through the skin and very relaxing, but it won't cure Crohn's.

In spite of that, I highly recommend it.

Dan

 

[Beach]

Dan, I'm going to pretend I didn't read your posting! I'm of the firm belief this idea needs to be tested thoroughly! And a kind relative has been kind enough to let me use their sauna, for the next few weeks, during this long bitterly cold winter.

 

[D Bergy]

I hope you enjoy it. Don't go in right after eating a big meal. It can make you sick feeling.

It feels very good in the Winter. My stove is broke at the moment. I should fix that tomorrow because now I want to go in the Sauna.

Dan

 

[Hope345]

I know a jacuzzi/sauna made our daughter feel better, like her hot pad does.
Just gives some relief, but doesnt cure it.

enjoy it, it cant hurt.

 

[Malgrave]

I am afraid that D Bergy is right. Although we have the following proverb in Finland: 'If hard liquor, tar and sauna do not help, then the disease is fatal', I am afraid that sauna doesn't heal CD. Thousands of Finnish CD patients go to sauna many times every week and still they have the disease. But it surely makes you relaxed and releases a lot of endorphins (especially if you take a cold bath between), it is like a sort of meditation.