Iron defeciency and Ibd

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my little penguin

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The only way to lose iron is by menstrual and intestinal bleeding. Chronic intestinal bleeding in IBD may exceed the amount of iron that can be absorbed from the diet, resulting in a negative iron balance.20 Although iron absorption in IBD is not generally abnormal, it can be occasionally impaired in Crohn’s disease of the duodenum or upper jejunum.21
When the rate of iron supply to the developing erythroblast is limited as a result of ID, red cell haemoglobinisation would be impaired. The red cells which then emerge from the marrow are microcytic and hypochromic. The Epo response to the fall in haemoglobin will stimulate erythropoiesis further, creating an even greater demand for iron which cannot be met. As a result there is a high degree of ineffective erythropoiesis in this condition.


From:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1774131/


So since DS is male it basically is saying he IS bleeding somewhere
For his ferritin ( iron stores ) to be low .

My question
You wouldn't have iron deficiency IF your in remission since Ida is considered a clinical sign of Ibd correct or am I over thinking this one.

Has anyone had their GI do anything for Ida except iron supplements ?
In other words testing to determine where the bleeding was taking place or imaging tests or ...?
Do you just treat with iron pills eliminated the iron defeciency and hope what ever bleeding caused it stops on its own ? Or did you have to change meds in addition to the iron pills ...

Does Ida mean the current med is not doing its job??

DS has never had any typical Ibd stuff . Always constipation on bloody d once or twice with very tiny amounts of bleeding on occasion( which hasn't happened at all since maybe last July range .

I don't like new typical symtpoms .
Going back to my bubble that all is fine in my crohn's world
 
I dunno, my mom was anemic as a child, it can be idiopathic. But certainly a datapoint amid other things going on. We've only done supplements. Hang in there!
 
I dunno either MLP, when C had IDA it was due to his untreated CD. Once treatment commenced his ferritin levels came up. The GI said that, with his inflammation located in his TI, he was probably having some bleeding, but this was the diagnosing GI not his Ped GI, so really not sure.
 
See I would understand if he had it at dx or even when things were not good and we were changing meds but ... Not for "no reason " if everything is normal . Kwim
It doesn't add up especially since it was never low before as far as I can tell .
 
That is what we were told - my daughter had to have been bleeding at some point because her ferritin was so low. This was before diagnosis and was one of the reasons we did the colonoscopy and endoscopy. All her stool tests were negative for blood at the time so we assumed the bleeding happened before she was diagnosed. However, she had been on Humira (for arthritis) before she was diagnosed, so obviously even though she was on meds, they weren't working well enough for her.
After diagnosis we added Entocort and then went to Remicade and it's never been low since. Now we're back on Humira so I suppose we'll see…..

Is it possible that this happened when your son was changing meds and it just wasn't caught at the time?
 
I kind of doubt it has anything to do with bleeding in most people. I know plenty of people and myself with crohn's disease who had iron-deficiency anemia during periods without any bleeding. Iron has very low bioavailability, especially if you don't eat enough meat. Only meat has heme iron, non-heme iron from plants has less than half the bioavailability as heme iron from meat. I think it's an absorption issue, not bleeding in most people. If there were no absorptions issues they would give people with crohn's disease iron tablets, most use IV, iron is not easy to absorb for regular people, let alone crohn's disease people.
 
It is true that bleeding is the only way to lose iron but you can have iron deficiency anaemia without bleeding.

Diet and malabsorption are other ways to contract IDA. You don’t lose iron this way but rather your numbers drop simply because you are not absorbing enough iron to replace the stores.

Since my two have had ileal resections it would not unusual for them to develop IDA as they may not be able to absorb enough iron to meet their body’s requirements. The body then draws on the stores to meet the demand and it becomes a vicious cycle that ends in IDA. Since their resections they have moved away from red meat and I am very wary of the fact that IDA may be lingering in the background plus Sarah has the added burden of menstruation and a vegan diet! :yfaint:

Your lad has small bowel and upper GI involvement doesn’t he mlp?

Dusty. xxx
 
Dusty
DS has very mild disease per the two gi's we have seen.
No thickening in the TI or anything else abnormal on his most recent mre.
Only mild thickening in the TI on a cte two and half years ago normal since.
His pill cam was normal except for one possible ulcer in his duodenum. Gi thought it could have been a biopsy site .
Recent scope mild duodenitis and all else was normal.

He did have disease in the cecum, TI , rectum , sigmoid colon, duodendum and stomach at one point or another but all very mild .
Add in he eats some meat every day but one or two days a week in addition to the iron in the peptamen jr.

So without scar tissue I am having a hard time with this one .
All his other minerals are normal but vitamin D .
I like for things to make sense .
 
I hear you about liking things to make sense. :ghug:

Iron is predominately absorbed in the duodenum. It just may be that the inflammation present there is enough to hinder absorption and knock his numbers down.

Dusty. xxx
 
Mehita go nurse called and started DS on 50 mg of elemental iron .
We see the Gi for a follow up next week.

Gi said it was ok to take ferro bis glycinate ( chelated iron)
So we are trying that first.
 
Our purpose was to compare the absorption of iron bisglycinate and ferrous calcium citrate in volunteers using an oral iron tolerance test. Twenty volunteers, 10 healthy controls and 10 with stable Crohn's disease, agreed to participate in the study. All were given 50 mg of elemental iron as iron bisglycinate or ferrous calcium citrate. Serum iron levels were monitored for 4 hr. After a week, each received the other regimen. Using the area under the curve as indicator, the oral iron absorption test revealed that absorption of iron post-ingestion of ferrous calcium citrate was better than after ingestion of iron bisglycinate for the group as a whole (P < 0.03). Volunteers with Crohn's disease absorbed ferrous calcium citrate better than iron bisglycinate (P=0.005). No difference was noted in the absorption of either preparation by healthy volunteers. Ferrus calcium citrate is apparently more effective than iron bisglycinate in patients with Crohn's disease.


From:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10620-005-9036-6

Digestive Diseases and Sciences
May 2006, Volume 51, Issue 5, pp 942-945
Ferrus Calcium Citrate Is Absorbed Better Than Iron Bisglycinate in Patients with Crohn's Disease, but Not in Healthy Controls

Irit Chermesh, Ada Tamir, Alain Suissa, Rami Eliakim





And this

METHODS: Patients were divided in two groups: group 1 received ferrous sulfate (200 mg twice a day, corresponding to 80 mg of elemental iron) and group 2 received ferrous glycinate chelate (250 mg/d, corresponding to 50 mg of elemental iron) for 4 mo. Laboratory measurements were performed at baseline and after 2 and 4 mo.

RESULTS: Group 1 showed an apparent recovery in laboratory parameters, with increases in medium corpuscular hemoglobin (P = 0.02), serum iron (P = 0.02), and ferritin (P = 0.04), and a decrease in transferrin (P = 0.002) after 4 mo. Individualized analysis showed that only one patient using ferrous sulfate had anemia at the end of the study in contrast to six patients using ferrous glycinate. In addition, ferritin levels increased above 20 microg/L at the end of the study in seven patients using ferrous sulfate in contrast to one patient using ferrous glycinate.

CONCLUSION: Patients with iron deficiency anemia after gastrectomy treated with ferrous sulfate had better results in hematologic laboratory parameters than those who used ferrous glycinate chelate.


From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18499399/




Comparison of ferrous sulfate and ferrous glycinate chelate for the treatment of iron deficiency anemia in gastrectomized patients.

AuthorsMimura EC, et al. Show all Journal
Nutrition. 2008 Jul-Aug;24(7-8):663-8. doi: 10.1016/j.nut.2008.03.017. Epub 2008 May 21.
Affiliation









So now I don't know what to give him since he is h2 blockers and has disease in the duodendum.
Ugh....
I hate this
 
Not of any use to you now mlp but may of use in the future if needed:

Shield Therapeutics (Shield), an independent specialty pharmaceutical company focused on the development of mineral-derived hospital pharmaceuticals, has announced strongly positive top-line data from the pivotal Phase 3 programme of ST10 for the treatment of iron deficiency anaemia (IDA) in inflammatory bowel disease (IBD).

ST10, a novel orally-dosed form of ferric iron, delivered a mean improvement in haemoglobin levels of 2.3g/dL (p <0.0001), clearly meeting the primary endpoint of haemoglobin change after 12 weeks' treatment compared to placebo. More than 65% of treated subjects experienced normalised haemoglobin levels by week 12 and ST10 also rapidly delivered significant improvements in haemoglobin at 4 weeks (1.1g/dL, p <0.0001) and 8 weeks (1.8g/dL, p <0.0001) of therapy. From a safety perspective, ST10 did not adversely affect IBD symptoms in treated subjects and was well tolerated for the duration of exposure.

The two AEGIS protocols recruited 128 patients with anaemia secondary to either Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis who had previously failed therapy with oral ferrous products due to intolerance and/or inadequate therapeutic benefit. Patients were recruited from expert centres in Austria, Germany, Hungary and the UK and were randomised (1:1) to receive ST10 or a matched placebo capsule. Other iron therapies were not permitted during the study. Adverse events recorded during the study were mainly gastrointestinal in nature and occurred in the ST10-treated arm with placebo-like frequency (38% of ST10-treated subjects and 40% of placebo-treated subjects). Withdrawal from the study before 12 weeks (due to adverse events or subject decision) occurred in seven ST10-treated and nine placebo-treated subjects. Patients who completed the 12-week double-blind phase of the study continued treatment in a 12-month open-label extension phase and results of this will be available later this year.

These results provide confirmatory pivotal clinical data which will form the basis of a Marketing Authorisation Application submission to the European regulatory authorities during 2014. In conjunction with data that will be generated from the study of ST10 in the treatment of IDA in pre-dialysis chronic kidney disease patients that is currently progressing, these results will also form part of a subsequent New Drug Application submission to the FDA in the USA.

Full findings from the AEGIS studies will be presented at scientific congresses in due course.

Commenting on the results, Professor Christoph Gasche, Professor of Medicine, Medical University of Vienna, Austria, said:

"I have studied the problem of anaemia in inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) patients for many years, and the data from the AEGIS studies are very encouraging. Until now there has been no acceptable oral iron treatment available for the majority of my IBD patients with iron deficiency anaemia. These results are statistically very convincing and the 2.3 g/dL rise in haemoglobin at 12 weeks together with the more than 1.1g/dL rise in haemoglobin at 4 weeks compared to placebo are clinically meaningful for anaemic patients. The safety results from this study also show that ST10 is well tolerated with just a very small number of subjects withdrawing because of adverse effects and the frequency of GI side effects was similar in the placebo and ST10 groups. My personal experience of the patients that I treated in this study fits with these results."

Also commenting on the results, Dr Tariq Ahmad, Consultant Gastroenterologist at the Royal Devon and Exeter Foundation Trust, Exeter, UK, said:

"Iron deficiency anaemia is a real problem for many of my patients. Unfortunately patients often struggle with GI side effects caused by conventional ferrous iron salts. Currently we offer such patients intravenous iron in hospital. This is costly to administer, inconvenient for patients and associated with a small but significant risk of anaphylaxis. The exciting AEGIS Phase 3 data suggests that ST10 will provide an effective, safe and more convenient alternative to intravenous iron for this group of patients as demonstrated by ST10 keeping our patients out of the infusion room by correcting and maintaining their haemoglobin in the normal range."

Shield's Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Carl Sterritt, commented:

"Delivering such resoundingly positive findings from these pivotal trials of ST10 in IBD is a tremendous achievement for Shield; and the whole team is indebted to the patients and investigators who participated in the protocols. Our next aim is to make this therapy available as quickly as possible on a commercial basis to as wide an audience of prescribers and patients as we can, so we will be working diligently with regulatory authorities to achieve this goal.

"The results reflect an important milestone in the development of ST10 as the only effective, low-dose oral iron-replacement therapy without the significant GI side-effects of ferrous iron or the high risks associated with intravenous administration of iron. ST10 presents a significant opportunity for Shield to develop a paradigm changing treatment that will address a broad range of indications with a strong commercial potential and we look forward to rapidly advancing the programme."

Shield Therapeutics is soon to commence a Phase 3 study of ST10 for the treatment of iron deficiency anaemia in patients with chronic kidney disease.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/270943.php

Dusty. :)
 
Could he be starting a growth spurt so his body is requiring more iron than usual? Just a random idea for the idiosyncrasy of it. Glad he's started the supplement, hope it helps improve his numbers.
 
Saw GI
Continue with supplement - not anemic yet.
Low ferritin due to his inflammation since he has lots of inflammation not just crohn's .
Gi said goal is to get some iron in him without making him feel bad so if we have to lower it than that is ok as well .

We have time since his CBC was normal and his iron levels are normL at this point.
 
Well that is encouraging...sorta. Do you cook with cast iron? Just another sneaky way to get iron onto them. I am checking out this anti inflammation diet craze currently. Have you given it a look see? Hard I imagine with all hos forbidden foods but might help all the "other" inflammation?
 
MLP,
I asked the nephrologist if Johnny would become anemic because of the blood in his urine (which they do not expect to go away) he said it would not because it was such a small amount but he did say that 6mp can cause anemia. He said it not only lowers the WBC but the RBC and hemoglobin.

Would Humira cause the same issue?
 
MLP, I am confused by this statement "Low ferritin due to his inflammation since he has lots of inflammation not just crohn's ." My understanding was that inflammation raised the ferritin level so that it wasn't a good indicator of iron deficiency.
 
He had lots of inflammation/ going on multiple other issues as well for a long time which depleted his iron stores since he wasn't absorbing like he should have ( Ibd or using too much iron other stuff) and because of the inflammation his ferritin levels were artificially inflated for a bit. The inflammation is down now so we are seeing the true ferritin numbers .
Since he is under better control now on a lot of fronts he should not need as much iron so adding it back should increase his ferritin.
Given he is not actively bleeding inflamed that we know of and not anemic we have time to try to increase things orally .
 
MLP, that same thing as we were told about inflammation caused a false elevation in ferritin levels.

We had both IDA and ICD.
 
Iron supplements causing issues including D for DS.
:(
Gi is having us change something's hopefully this will stop the D.
 
IRON causing D?
I've only heard the opposite. The doc told me it could cause constipation and or stomach pains.:yfaint:

I hope the change helps.
 
SIDE EFFECTS AND SAFETY

Constipation and diarrhea are very common. If constipation becomes a problem, take a stool softener such as docusate sodium (Colace).

Nausea and vomiting may occur with higher doses, but they can be controlled by taking the iron in smaller amounts. Ask your health care provider about switching to another form of iron rather than just stopping.

Black stools are normal when taking iron tablets. In fact, this is felt to be a sign that the tablets are working correctly. If the stools are tarry looking as well as black, if they have red streaks, or if cramps, sharp pains, or soreness in the stomach occur, talk to your health care provider immediately.

From

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/007478.htm



So it just plain irritates normal guts - and does a wonderful job on Ibd guts.

Most get constipation but DS didn't read the memo AGAIN..Some get D when the dose is higher so its a balancing act .
DS got D so now we try to see if he can tolerate less in his system.

Never easy
 
GI told is to not take it by itself with juice anymore .
But to stop miralax and take it with a meal.
DS was very confused when I told him to take the iron pills with milk and dinner tonight .
Fingers crossed it does not relapse
 
I think I am only to confuse you even more. Do not take iron supplement with milk.

Were told to take it with the main meal of the day, making sure the meal contain vitamin C in our case pineapple juice.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/007478.htm

TIPS FOR TAKING IRON

Iron is absorbed the best when taken on an empty stomach. However, some people have stomach cramps, nausea, and diarrhea when taking iron and may need to take their iron with a small amount of food.

Milk, calcium and antacids should NOT be taken at the same time as iron supplements. You should wait at least 2 hours after ingesting these before taking your iron supplements.

Foods that you should NOT eat at the same time as you take your iron include:
•High fiber foods, such as whole grains, raw vegetables, and bran
•Foods or drinks with caffeine
 
What Catherine said is true iron should not be taken with milk. Look into Floradix. It is over the counter and is a very gentle iron supplement. It is actually made from flowers. It is well tolerated and well absorbed. You can order it online. Call them and tell them his exact blood numbers and they will tell you a personalized dose for him. They sell one specifically for kids.
 
Gi doesn't want us to change brands or types just yet.
We need to see if this can work first then there are other steps the Gi wants to take if it doesn't .
Yesterday was better things calmed down ( yes I was aware of the milk issue) just trying to see if he could tolerate it at all which he can with milk . So today juice and sandwich plus other stuff with it since most if his main meals have milk products in them.

If that works fine if not we will try again .

The chelated iron he uses is very gentle -ferrochel . Flowers would not work well with his allergies so not an option for him but a good thought for others. .
 
We also avoided milk, but now I'm wondering for next time.. would soy or almond milk be ok?
 
The problem isn't the milk protein but the calcium inhibits the body from absorbing the iron.
So even almond milk or soy milk are fortified with calcium so they wouldn't work.
But thanks for the ideas.
Scheduling it around his peptamen jr is also an issue . Timing is everything.
 
Didn't have time to read the whole thread so forgive me if I'm repeating what others have said.

Low iron and therefore low ferritin can be the result of poor dietary sources of iron and poor absorption of iron from the diet.

Since it is already hard to absorb iron from dietary sources for normal people (10-15% absorbed) and not everyone eats a lot of dietary sources rich in iron (like red meat) low ferritin may not be a reason to feel alarmed but rather a call for examination of the diet and use of supplements as directed by your doctor.

Poor absorption of iron may be caused by active inflammation OR by scarring left behind once inflammation has healed.

If there are no other signs that there is active inflammation then I would be reluctant to jump to the conclusion that any additional intervention is needed. It would depend on the whole clinical picture.

Ferritin can also be artificially elevated by systemic inflammation. So, paradoxically, low ferritin may be a reflection of a reduction in systemic inflammation.

This is why it's important to look at the complete clinical picture and not just one lab value by itself. If you track your child's labs over time you may be able to say that low ferritin appears to be a marker of increased inflammation if you are able to see an association between dropping ferritin and new symptoms/flares. Otherwise I would be reluctant to jump to any big conclusions just based on ferritin.
 
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