Is fructose bad for leaky gut?

[Chlorinated]

Before ibd I developed adrenal fatigue and then leaky gut. Whenever I ate fruits(I recall eating apples and oranges) I used to get slight pain above my kidneys(adrenals) which made me think fruits were bad for me. At this point I didn't have any gastric problems.

At the moment I am using liquid feeds as I have found that I can only have some carbohydrates e.g. kale, spinach. I'm thinking of trying fruits for carbs and calories however I am wondering if fruits are bad for leaky gut. Considering the slight adrenal pain years back when I first tried fruits and the fact that currently eating fruits causes foul gas(but no adrenal pain and I don't suspect the adrenals improved)maybe this means I shouldn't eat fruits?

I notice doctors say you can have fruits for leaky gut and others say it is bad for leaky gut. This doesn't help. Some say only if you have a candida problem you shouldn't take fruits however I am showing no skin problems so I guess I do not have candida.


So do you think fruits are bad for leak gut?

Thanks

 

[UnXmas]

My experience has been that leaky gut and adrenal fatigue are made-up conditions, invented and used by quack-doctors.

If fruits give you problems, it is more likely due to the fibre content than the sugar content. If you think you are not digesting fructose properly (or anything else), you should see a conventional doctor to try to assess whether your IBD is under control.

Who is supervising your liquid diet? Also, fruits are not the best source of calories and carbohydrates - I would have thought grains and cereals provide more carbohydrates, and fats are the best source of calories (if you need to gain weight and need more calories, fats will provide the most with the lowest volume of food). Fruits are a great source of vitamins (and fibre, though that can definitely not be a good thing for many of those with digestive problems!) and you should include some in your diet for this reason.

 

[Chlorinated]

My experience has been that leaky gut and adrenal fatigue are made-up conditions, invented and used by quack-doctors.

I'm guessing you didn't experience adrenal fatigue or leaky gut and you are going by what you have heard from conventional scientists, many of whom are ignorant of the facts.

Leaky gut is not used by quack doctors, the existence of leaky gut was proven by Alessio fasano at the university Maryland centre for celiac research. http://medschool.umaryland.edu/facultyresearchprofile/viewprofile.aspx?id=1891
There is also thousand of research papers on the topic and I have spoken to state doctors ENGAGED IN RESEARCH (Adenbrookes hospital UK) who accept this condition.
However for some reason this information is not being brought to the conventional doctors for whatever reason, maybe in a couple of years time.
At the same time it is true that some doctors link the idea of leaky gut to everything under the sun without evidence which is why it has been given a bad name in conventional medicine.
Therefore your statement is false however there is some truth in it as some doctors are exploiting the idea of leaky gut in order to make money.


Adrenal fatigue make perfect sense, I experienced chronic stress which caused me to get the typical adrenal fatigue symptoms, I also started to recover by following what the 'quack' doctors advised me and the conventional didn't. If i did the things they told me not to do e.g. drinking caffeine this would cause me to relapse. Whenever I drank caffeine(which works by whipping cortisol out of the adrenal glands)I would get pain on top of my kidney region which is exactly where the adrenal glands are.
Adrenal fatigue patients can be tested for low cortisol whereas normal people do not have low cortisol, cortisol comes from the adrenal gland. Giving these people cortisol supplements can cause there symptoms to go. There is other evidence for adrenal fatigue and in my experience it makes a lot of sense.


The leaky gut is definitely there and the evidence suggests the adrenal fatigue is there. Both of these conditions can be treated through nutrition.

 

[UnXmas]

I'm going by my experiences with alternative "doctors" and other alternative health practitioners, nutritionists, etc. who told me I had leaky gut and told me various ways to heal it through diet, supplements, etc. who made me extremely ill and took a lot of my money.

But you asked a question about fructose, so I tried to answer, and hoped to spare you some of the expense and disappointments I experienced when I tried approaching my health problems from the alternative perspective at the same time.

Have you asked the doctors who have helped you with your leaky gut/adrenal fatigue previously your question about eating fruits? If you want answers that comply with a belief in those conditions then perhaps you should be asking them.

 

[Chlorinated]

I'm going by my experiences with alternative "doctors" and other alternative health practitioners, nutritionists, etc. who told me I had leaky gut and told me various ways to heal it through diet, supplements, etc. who made me extremely ill and took a lot of my money.

But you asked a question about fructose, so I tried to answer, and hoped to spare you some of the expense and disappointments I experienced when I tried approaching my health problems from the alternative perspective at the same time.

Have you asked the doctors who have helped you with your leaky gut/adrenal fatigue previously your question about eating fruits? If you want answers that comply with a belief in those conditions then perhaps you should be asking them.

Like I said, there are quacks who will exploit you, looks like you went to one of those quacks. There are people who know how to heal certain conditions but they do not initially give the answers so that they can milk you for your money. I have encountered such people but through studying the condition, listening to my body, studying the doctors advice etc I can filter out the quacks and I never return to them. One appointment with a quack is usually enough for a learned person. Imo, listening to your body is the most important thing.

Yes you may still loose money but then there are those who will give you answers which can help you regain your health. This is why you need to listen to your body, study the condition/research and examine the doctors advice, regardless of how much of an expert he is. If I hadn't been studying and not understanding the condition then I would have been exploited by some doctors.

With regards to the fructose issue, everything about leaky gut is not clear, especially in tricky, less typical and advanced cases. For mild to moderate cases of adrenal fatigue and related leaky gut, the established dietary changes and avoidance of specific sensitivities usually do the trick.
If the leaky gut is related with adrenal fatigue which fructose can make worse, then perhaps it is the adrenal which makes fructose bad for a recovering leaky gut. For others with candida maybe fructose is bad for their leaky gut. For others fructose may be ok since they have neither adrenal/fungal problems i.e. fructose is ok. It could be that my problems are not with fructose but enzymatic issues which is why I have posted a question on digestion. It's not black and white. This is why you need to listen to your body, my body is telling me fruits are bad so I am not following it, however I posted the question to see what other people thought rather then spend money on a doctor, because they will probably say what I already know/can find out for free.

I do sympathise with you, but you need to listen to your body and try heal yourself, read about the causes/symptoms of a condition and get it verified through testing and study the doctors advice rather then just trust an expert. Pretty much anybody can complain of stomach issues and somebody can say they have leaky gut, however if you study your causes/condition and see it is different from the established issues on leaky gut, then hopefully you can move onto something else.

 

[UnXmas]

Like I said, there are quacks who will exploit you, looks like you went to one of those quacks.

Not one, many. Whereas every doctor who has helped me didn't mention leaky gut.

With regards to the fructose issue, everything about leaky gut is not clear, especially in tricky, less typical and advanced cases. For mild to moderate cases of adrenal fatigue and related leaky gut, the established dietary changes and avoidance of specific sensitivities usually do the trick.
If the leaky gut is related with adrenal fatigue which fructose can make worse, then perhaps it is the adrenal which makes fructose bad for a recovering leaky gut. For others with candida maybe fructose is bad for their leaky gut. For others fructose may be ok since they have neither adrenal/fungal problems i.e. fructose is ok. It could be that my problems are not with fructose but enzymatic issues which is why I have posted a question on digestion. It's not black and white. This is why you need to listen to your body, my body is telling me fruits are bad so I am not following it, however I posted the question to see what other people thought rather then spend money on a doctor, because they will probably say what I already know/can find out for free.

It sounds like you answered your own question. Listening to your body, and trial and error, sound like the only ways you'll get an answer on the fructose issue.

I do sympathise with you, but you need to listen to your body and try heal yourself, read about the causes/symptoms of a condition and get it verified through testing and study the doctors advice rather then just trust an expert.

Unfortunately, my body isn't that heal-able, and in order to achieve the best management of my various medical conditions, I need a lot of medical intervention, there are limits to what I can do for myself. I wouldn't just trust any expert - I've met more than my fair share of bad conventional doctors, too.

But conventional medicine has a quality of research and a regulation of standards that simply aren't found in alternative medicine. Leaky gut and adrenal fatigue just don't have the evidence to support their existence as medical conditions - or to support the methods of treating them - that conditions recognised by conventional medicine do.

Pretty much anybody can complain of stomach issues and somebody can say they have leaky gut, however if you study your causes/condition and see it is different from the established issues on leaky gut, then hopefully you can move onto something else.

This is the case because leaky gut is precisely the type of condition alternative medicine often relies upon - it is held to have many, many possible symptoms, ensuring that the maximum number of sick people can be tempted into buying into it. Anyone with stomach issues - or any other health issues - can examine the symptoms supposedly caused by leaky gut and will find their symptoms listed.

 

[Catherine]

If your problem is in part fructose, try the low fructose fruits.

Bananas
Grapefruit
Blueberries
Honeydew melons
Kiwi fruit
Lemons
Limes
Mandarin
Orange
Pawpaw
Passion fruit
Tangelos
Raspy berries
Rockmelons
Strawberries
Tangelos

Be careful with apples as they are high in fructose.

 

[UnXmas]

From the NHS website:

'Leaky gut syndrome' is a proposed condition some health practitioners claim is the cause of a wide range of long-term conditions, including chronic fatigue syndrome and multiple sclerosis.

Proponents of 'leaky gut syndrome' claim that many symptoms and diseases are caused by the immune system reacting to germs, toxins or other large molecules that have been absorbed into the bloodstream via a porous ('leaky') bowel.

There is little evidence to support this theory, and no evidence that so-called 'treatments' for 'leaky gut syndrome', such as nutritional supplements and a gluten-free diet, have any beneficial effect for most of the conditions they are claimed to help.

While it is true that certain factors can make the bowel more permeable, this probably does not lead to anything more than temporary mild inflammation of an area of the bowel.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/leaky-gut-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Adrenal fatigue is a term that's used by some to say that fatigue and other symptoms are caused by a poorly working adrenal gland in people who are under mental, emotional, or physical stress. But it's not a proven medical condition.

Your adrenal glands make hormones. One of these is cortisol, which helps your body deal with stress. According to the adrenal fatigue theory, if your life is too stressful, your adrenal glands may not pump out enough hormones, leading to a wide variety of symptoms. But there's no evidence to support this theory.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/adrenal-fatigue-is-it-real


From Mayo clinic:

Adrenal fatigue is a term applied to a collection of nonspecific symptoms, such as body aches, fatigue, nervousness, sleep disturbances and digestive problems. The term often shows up in popular health books and on alternative medicine websites, but it isn't an accepted medical diagnosis

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/adrenal-fatigue/AN01583

 

[Chlorinated]

From the NHS website:



http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/leaky-gut-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx





http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/adrenal-fatigue-is-it-real


From Mayo clinic:



http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/adrenal-fatigue/AN01583

Like I said the existence of leaky gut is proven(like I have pointed out) and there is tons of research on it. Some people exaggerate the claims which is a different matter, however scientists have shown that it isn't simply 'mild inflammation' but has implications in celiac disease, food sensitivities etc. The issue is those people at the Mayo clinic and your conventional doctors don't know about this research because the people that influence what doctors read and are trained in don't want them to.
You fail to understand that doctors are ignorant and are not aware of things because the powers that be do not want them to. To give you a simple example of ignorance, you can cure coughs and certain fungal infections using honey and apple cider vinegar. The antibacterial properties of cider vinegar allow for this. This is a fact and it has worked for me and other family members.
Conventional doctors will never suggest these treatments because they do not even know about them, whoever influences their training do not want them to know about them and they are not allowed to 'prescribe' them. This is despite these treatments being very effective and being scientifically backed.

On the topic of adrenal fatigue, I wonder why nobody does a study on why these symptoms occur in people who have overstressed, over drank caffeine, over exercised(all adrenal stimulating activities) and then came down with low cortisol levels. I wonder why autopsies in certain people with low adrenal ouput showed atrophied adrenal glands. I wonder why whenever I drink caffeine(whips adrenal) I get slight pain above my kidneys(adrenal glands located here). I wonder why there is no conventional studies on this.
Like I say there is research on the matter although admittedly far less then leaky gut however conventional medicine doesn't want to cover it.
Why do they do this? well there could be various reasons for that but that is a subjective matter and not something I care to discuss right now.

 

[UnXmas]

In that case I hope you have better experiences trying to heal these conditions than I did.

But recognise that a lot of the practitioners who claim to treat them, even those well-intentioned, can give very bad advice - including those whose ideas you read online.

I saw a couple of your other posts, and it sounds like you have quite severe digestive problems and that you are attempting very extreme dietary measures, which is potentially a very bad set of circumstances. I ended up on very extreme diets, which was socially isolating - no cooking and dining with others, constant worry that I was eating something bad, confusion over why, when I was eating so radically "healthily", I was not feeling any better. I am far happier and healthier now that I am relaxed and enjoying food (though digestive issues of course do infringe on that enjoyment ) and benefitting from mainstream medications and surgery.

Please don't be offended by my dismissal of alternative medicine - with the experiences I've had, it's hard for me not to want to warn others. Hopefully you're not as naïve as I used to be when you are given advice (when I was diagnosed with leaky gut and trying to heal it, I was only a teenager), and not as neurotic as I was when it comes to trying to find a healing diet.

I hope you are able to improve your health as much as possible, and accept the ill health where healing isn't possible. And if it ever seems like the effort you are putting into diet isn't being matched by the benefits it should be bringing, reassess your situation.

 

[Chlorinated]

In that case I hope you have better experiences trying to heal these conditions than I did.

But recognise that a lot of the practitioners who claim to treat them, even those well-intentioned, can give very bad advice - including those whose ideas you read online.

I saw a couple of your other posts, and it sounds like you have quite severe digestive problems and that you are attempting very extreme dietary measures, which is potentially a very bad set of circumstances. I ended up on very extreme diets, which was socially isolating - no cooking and dining with others, constant worry that I was eating something bad, confusion over why, when I was eating so radically "healthily", I was not feeling any better. I am far happier and healthier now that I am relaxed and enjoying food (though digestive issues of course do infringe on that enjoyment ) and benefitting from mainstream medications and surgery.

Please don't be offended by my dismissal of alternative medicine - with the experiences I've had, it's hard for me not to want to warn others. Hopefully you're not as naïve as I used to be when you are given advice (when I was diagnosed with leaky gut and trying to heal it, I was only a teenager), and not as neurotic as I was when it comes to trying to find a healing diet.

I hope you are able to improve your health as much as possible, and accept the ill health where healing isn't possible. And if it ever seems like the effort you are putting into diet isn't being matched by the benefits it should be bringing, reassess your situation.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am all for conventional medicine but only a last and necessary resort i.e. where there is no alternative treatment. As such I promote an integrative approach. If you had to go through surgery because you couldn't do anything else, then I don't condemn it, I would have done the same, but only if it was really necessary. Likewise if I have something like bacterial pneumonia I don't go to a naturopath I go for emergency conventional treatment.

I don't know what your conditions\symptoms are so I can't comment however I just hope you have tested yourself appropriately, tried proper elimination diets, listened to your body, tried elemental diets and so on where appropriate. I also think it is best to consult different doctors and do some study so to make better informed decisions.

Hope things work out for you. God bless.

 

[MissCadenza]

Try cooked fruit, I can't eat raw fruit apart from bananas and berries because everything else is too acidy, even grapes which sucks because I used to nibble at those all the time. Baked apples are a nice alternative, you get the tasty apple goodness without the gut going 'holy hell what did you just put in me?'

Personally I don't believe in leaky gut and think that alternative medicine is a load of balls, so actually I think that what you're experiencing is something gastric. If you're getting pain above your kidneys, talk to a real doctor. Anything involving pain around a major organ is time to go to a proper doctor with a medical degree, not some hack who thinks everything can be healed by eating magic seeds.

Sorry, but alternative therapies only work because people are conned into believing they work. That's all well and good but there really is no substitute for proper medical care and decent medication.

That turned into a rant... try cooking your fruit! *slinks out of thread*

 

[UnXmas]

If you're getting pain above your kidneys, talk to a real doctor. Anything involving pain around a major organ is time to go to a proper doctor with a medical degree, not some hack who thinks everything can be healed by eating magic seeds.

Something else I forgot to mention: it's very hard to tell which part of which organ is causing you pain when you just go by the location of the pain. Our abdomen is so full of organs, and pain can be referred - we can feel it in one place when it is actually originating in another. In some conditions, there are typical pains for various organs/illnesses - e.g. typical pain that indicates appendicitis, which (if I remember correctly) often starts in the centre of a person's stomach and then migrates to a constant pain on the right hand side. But then there are always cases where pain is atypical, and there are illnesses where the pain can be felt in a variety of places, and can vary in its nature (crampy, constant, severe, sudden, intermittent, etc., etc.). (Crohn's can cause many types of pain.) Rather than attributing a pain you get to a particular condition based on the location in which you feel it, you have to get proper tests done to be sure of the real source of the pain.

 

[Chlorinated]

Personally I don't believe in leaky gut and think that alternative medicine is a load of balls, so actually I think that what you're experiencing is something gastric. If you're getting pain above your kidneys, talk to a real doctor. Anything involving pain around a major organ is time to go to a proper doctor with a medical degree, not some hack who thinks everything can be healed by eating magic seeds.

Sorry, but alternative therapies only work because people are conned into believing they work. That's all well and good but there really is no substitute for proper medical care and decent medication.

If you are saying there are many quacks and robbers in the alternative field I agree with you 100%. However if you are dismissing the credibility of alternative therapies you are sorely mistaken and that is a fact.

As I said leaky gut has been proven(see references) and acknowledged by conventional doctors primarily those involved in research, however this has not been brought to the attention of the entire medical community for whatever reason.
Likewise things like using honey to cure coughs, apple cider vinegar to kill certain infections are facts(have worked for me and countless others) and scientifically backed as well. Studies have been done on many alternative therapies to treat certain conditions e.g. bacterial infections and they are proven to work and scientifically backed however the powers that be don't talk about them.

Here is another fact for you: One of the components of apparent 'leaky gut' is low stomach acid such that people have problems digesting protein. Conventional doctors do not accept leaky gut neither do they accept these patients have low stomach acid so do not advise them to take acid supplements. However many alternative doctors are able to identify the low stomach acid(regardless of weather they have an actual leaky gut) and treat patients with hcl supplements/acid producing herbs which puts patients onto recovery. This has been used to heal many people and that is a fact. Clearly there is something alternative doctors know that conventional doctors don't.

To say that all these people are imagining or believing that the hcl supplements turned their health around is to be in denial or say all of those thousands upon thousands of people had mental illness.
Considering all of these FACTS I think it is absurd to dismiss alternative medicine as a load of bull but hey, whatever makes you happy.

Regarding the kidney pain issue I didn't say that it couldn't come from another part of the body or it couldn't be something else. or that it proved adrenal problems. Rather I was pointing out why all the various symptoms e.g. how adrenal stressing activities lead to symptoms(of adrenal fatigue), testable low cortisol levels, pain in adrenal area, autopsies showing atrophied adrenals in some people etc weren't being discussed as is in alternative field.

 

[UnXmas]

Regarding the kidney pain issue I didn't say that it couldn't come from another part of the body or it couldn't be something else. or that it proved adrenal problems. Rather I was pointing out why all the various symptoms e.g. how adrenal stressing activities lead to symptoms(of adrenal fatigue), testable low cortisol levels, pain in adrenal area, autopsies showing atrophied adrenals in some people etc weren't being discussed as is in alternative field.

I interpreted your posts to mean that you were attributing your pain to your adrenal glands:

Considering the slight adrenal pain years back when I first tried fruits and the fact that currently eating fruits causes foul gas(but no adrenal pain and I don't suspect the adrenals improved)maybe this means I shouldn't eat fruits?

Whenever I drank caffeine(which works by whipping cortisol out of the adrenal glands)I would get pain on top of my kidney region which is exactly where the adrenal glands are.

I wonder why whenever I drink caffeine(whips adrenal) I get slight pain above my kidneys(adrenal glands located here).

I guess I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to say. It still sounds like you knew you had adrenal pain in the past? If you think your pain might be something other than adrenal gland pain, are you doing anything to figure out what it may be from?

 

[MissCadenza]

Clearly there is something alternative doctors know that conventional doctors don't.

Yeah, they know that gentle manner and a low, quiet voice makes really gullible people believe the balls they're peddling. Some people are so desperate for a 'cure' they'd bathe in horse manure if a therapist told them it would make them better. Clever advertising is all it is, my friend.

Considering all of these FACTS I think it is absurd to dismiss alternative medicine as a load of bull but hey, whatever makes you happy.

There is a book called 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre that I highly recommend you read. It offers an actually scientific (yes, with experiments and everything) view on 'alternative' therapies, supplements and nutritionists. It's quite an eye-opener. It tells basically how alternative therapies are hyped, how placebos work just as well as these, and how little nutritionists actually know. Until I read it I had no idea of half the stuff that was going on. People get blinded by the media coverage of these alternative therapies, and that's why it's such big business.

I do admit I take a supplement, but that's only because I have such a hideously restricted diet that if I didn't my nails and hair would crumble and die. I was a little hesitant at first to take it but hey, it works. So I will concede there is a place for supplements but the rest of it is about as useful as the piece of gum I just chucked in the bin.

It's all hokum. Go read 'Bad Science' then come back and tell me what you think.

 

[Chlorinated]

I interpreted your posts to mean that you were attributing your pain to your adrenal glands:

I guess I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to say. It still sounds like you knew you had adrenal pain in the past? If you think your pain might be something other than adrenal gland pain, are you doing anything to figure out what it may be from?

Yeah you do sound a bit confused. You pointed out where I said "I wonder why whenever I drink caffeine(whips adrenal) I get slight pain above my kidneys(adrenal glands located here). " etc however you omitted the rest of the paragraph which states:
"I wonder why nobody does a study on why these symptoms occur in people who have overstressed, over drank caffeine, over exercised(all adrenal stimulating activities) and then came down with low cortisol levels. I wonder why autopsies in certain people with low adrenal ouput showed atrophied adrenal glands...I wonder why there is no conventional studies on this. "

When I did my research and having considered the above and other research It makes a lot of sense that adrenal fatigue is probably a real condition and the pains were probably coming from the adrenals. Of course it is not a proven fact, however even if the pains aren't adrenal the evidence shows that adrenal fatigue could very well be true and this was likely the root cause of all the new symptoms I was experiencing.
Of course part of my considerations was that I had seen conventional doctors who had no answers for my symptoms including the pain and just diagnosed me with cfs(similar symptoms to adrenal fatigue). They also gave me advice which made me worse.

 

[Chlorinated]

Yeah, they know that gentle manner and a low, quiet voice makes really gullible people believe the balls they're peddling. Some people are so desperate for a 'cure' they'd bathe in horse manure if a therapist told them it would make them better. Clever advertising is all it is, my friend.

Like I have already stated, when you consider facts such as:
some of these are age old remedies, people (including myself and family) have used them for simple things from coughs to bacterial infections and they work just as well if not better than conventional meds,
some of these therapies have been studied , tested and scientifically backed,
certain conditions can be treated directly by taking hcl pills as in the example I gave etc
then I have no idea how you can make such dismissive statements unless you are in denial or just ignorant. The above are facts and more then just gentle quite voices.

However like I have already said, there are many quacks and charlatans in alternative medicine. If you include all the quacks in poor countries with low education and industry, then no doubt the vast majority of alternative therapies are quacks. However when I talk about alternative medicine I am referring to established things that are age old remedies, proven to work, researched, tested, some scientifically backed etc and not the works of witch doctors and such ilk.

 

[Twiggy930]

I really don't have anything to contribute to the discussion on leaky gut but I have been doing a lot of reading on fructose. My son has Crohn's and according to all his labs his inflammation is under control but he still has chronic abdominal pain. GI thinks it is IBS in addition to IBD. Anyhow, I was desperate to get him feeling better and a number of doctors have mentioned the Low FODMAP Diet. FODMAP stands for fermentable, oligo-saccharides, disaccharides, mono-saccharides and polyols. I bring this up because fructose is one of the worst offending FODMAPS. Even if IBS isn't what you have (and I'm not suggesting it is) you might want to have a look at the diet. My son has been on it for about 6 weeks and it seems to have made an improvement.

Here is a link to the Monash University FODMAP site.
http://www.med.monash.edu/cecs/gastro/fodmap/

My son can't eat apples but oranges seem ok. But any fruit is limited on the low fodmap diet.

 

[MissCadenza]

Like I have already stated, when you consider facts such as:
some of these are age old remedies, people (including myself and family) have used them for simple things from coughs to bacterial infections and they work just as well if not better than conventional meds,
some of these therapies have been studied , tested and scientifically backed,
certain conditions can be treated directly by taking hcl pills as in the example I gave etc
then I have no idea how you can make such dismissive statements unless you are in denial or just ignorant. The above are facts and more then just gentle quite voices.

Then link me to some of these 'facts' instead of just saying 'this does this, it's a FACT' and prove your sources. I do not believe anything unless I have concrete proof of it. Heck I didn't even believe I had crohns until my GI showed me the images of my intestine and then I was like 'oh, okay then' because it looked like a freakin' pile of pebbles. I'm a skeptic about anything unless I have hard evidence that is PROVEN and not just magically generated out of someone's backside, from a fabricated test conducted solely for the purposes of making people think something works, or an old wives tale that someone found worked once and it went down in the annals of history as being a magical cure for x, y or z.

I am not in denial. I am not ignorant either. I am not some dumb bint who hasn't been to school or university. I always research ANYTHING before I form an opinion on it, because that's what I was taught to do. And my investigating has led me to believe that alternative therapies are utter crud.

I still recommend you read 'Bad Science'. I would be interested to see your opinion on the book, given how into alternative therapies you are.

You believe what you believe, and I'll carry on trusting in modern medicine that has had science applied to it, science that I can find in my local library in the section labelled 'Medical Journals'. I'm out of this thread, I'm going to get cross if I don't leave it be.

 

[UnXmas]

Yeah you do sound a bit confused. You pointed out where I said "I wonder why whenever I drink caffeine(whips adrenal) I get slight pain above my kidneys(adrenal glands located here). " etc however you omitted the rest of the paragraph which states:
"I wonder why nobody does a study on why these symptoms occur in people who have overstressed, over drank caffeine, over exercised(all adrenal stimulating activities) and then came down with low cortisol levels. I wonder why autopsies in certain people with low adrenal ouput showed atrophied adrenal glands...I wonder why there is no conventional studies on this. "

When I did my research and having considered the above and other research It makes a lot of sense that adrenal fatigue is probably a real condition and the pains were probably coming from the adrenals. Of course it is not a proven fact, however even if the pains aren't adrenal the evidence shows that adrenal fatigue could very well be true and this was likely the root cause of all the new symptoms I was experiencing.
Of course part of my considerations was that I had seen conventional doctors who had no answers for my symptoms including the pain and just diagnosed me with cfs(similar symptoms to adrenal fatigue). They also gave me advice which made me worse.

That's fine - I think I've got your meaning now. It seemed that your earlier posts were implying you had attributed your pain to adrenal glad problems quite definitively (you did refer to it as "adrenal pain"), but you're actually saying that although there are signs that suggest to you your adrenal glands are the problem, there's always the possibility that the pain might be from something else. Correct? And that conventional medicine's lack of interest in adrenal fatigue means mainstream doctors have not given you satisfactory answers. In that case, I'd say MissCadenza's advice on this might be a good idea - getting the pain investigated might lead you to a more conclusive answer. Mainstream doctors may not be interested in confirming adrenal fatigue, but they may be interested in investigating other possible causes of your pain.

 

[Chlorinated]

That's fine - I think I've got your meaning now. It seemed that your earlier posts were implying you had attributed your pain to adrenal glad problems quite definitively (you did refer to it as "adrenal pain"), but you're actually saying that although there are signs that suggest to you your adrenal glands are the problem, there's always the possibility that the pain might be from something else. Correct? And that conventional medicine's lack of interest in adrenal fatigue means mainstream doctors have not given you satisfactory answers. In that case, I'd say MissCadenza's advice on this might be a good idea - getting the pain investigated might lead you to a more conclusive answer. Mainstream doctors may not be interested in confirming adrenal fatigue, but they may be interested in investigating other possible causes of your pain.

I already answered this. I already discussed the pain and other things with mainstream and they had no answers. I asked them about why I had low cortisol levels and they basically said we don't know but it might be a secondary problem. Strange considering this is the only tested anomaly the body is showing and all other tests showed normal. When I spoke to them about adrenal fatigue and all the others evidences they(including my cfs specialist) never even heard of adrenal fatigue and didn't do a good job of refuting the idea of adrenal fatigue.

 

[Chlorinated]

Then link me to some of these 'facts' instead of just saying 'this does this, it's a FACT' and prove your sources. I do not believe anything unless I have concrete proof of it. Heck I didn't even believe I had crohns until my GI showed me the images of my intestine and then I was like 'oh, okay then' because it looked like a freakin' pile of pebbles. I'm a skeptic about anything unless I have hard evidence that is PROVEN and not just magically generated out of someone's backside, from a fabricated test conducted solely for the purposes of making people think something works, or an old wives tale that someone found worked once and it went down in the annals of history as being a magical cure for x, y or z.

I am not in denial. I am not ignorant either. I am not some dumb bint who hasn't been to school or university. I always research ANYTHING before I form an opinion on it, because that's what I was taught to do. And my investigating has led me to believe that alternative therapies are utter crud.

I still recommend you read 'Bad Science'. I would be interested to see your opinion on the book, given how into alternative therapies you are.

You believe what you believe, and I'll carry on trusting in modern medicine that has had science applied to it, science that I can find in my local library in the section labelled 'Medical Journals'. I'm out of this thread, I'm going to get cross if I don't leave it be.

I don't like talking to people who don't read anything I write. I defined what I meant by alternative medicine in a previous post and said that depending on how you define it, yes the vast majority of alternative medicine can be considered the work of quacks and charlatons. I am 'into' alternative therapies, but only as far as the therapies that are tried and tested to work.

There have been few studies on even popular alternative treatments however isn't that a bit strange? Surely if these popular age old therapies worked then modern science would have studied them by now. Once again it comes down to those that influence and decide on research.


Yes me and my family have used honey to cure coughs and it has been studied to cure coughs (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/honey/AN01799) and that is a FACT.
Yes me and some family members have used apple cider to cure ringworm and that is a FACT.
Yes my brother did use mastic gum to remove his pylori and there are studies to support h pylori eradication using mastic gum(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19879118) and that is a FACT.
Yes I and many others did take hcl(as advised by alternative doctors) to heal certain digestive problems(which conventional doctors couldn't help with) and that if a FACT.
Yes, the existence of leaky gut, its relation to food sensitivities and chronic illnesses has been proven( http://chriskresser.com/pioneering-researcher-alessio-fasano-m-d-on-gluten-autoimmunity-leaky-gut) and that a Fact.
Most conventional doctors are ignorant of the leaky gut research/haven't even heard of it and that is a FACT.
(Note the Chris kesser website is alternative medicine but the researcher and research is not.)
I could dig up and discuss other things but I won't. You seem closed and are ignorant. Not how an open minded, educated person should be.
I discovered alternative medicine the hard way(becoming ill, not being helped by conventional doctors and then healing through certain alternative medicine that clearly showed ignorance on part of conventional medicine). You are a skeptic, perhaps you will only learn the hard way ,although I hope you will never have to.

This debate need not go on further. To each his own.

 

[UnXmas]

The issue is those people at the Mayo clinic and your conventional doctors don't know about this research because the people that influence what doctors read and are trained in don't want them to.
You fail to understand that doctors are ignorant and are not aware of things because the powers that be do not want them to.

Yes me and my family have used honey to cure coughs and it has been studied to cure coughs (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/honey/AN01799) and that is a FACT.

So if Mayo is used as a source for something you disagree with, it's not reliable, but you'll use it as a valid source if it supports your own beliefs?

And the same for anecdotal evidence:

I discovered alternative medicine the hard way(becoming ill, not being helped by conventional doctors and then healing through certain alternative medicine that clearly showed ignorance on part of conventional medicine).

My experience was very different; I saw many alternative practitioners and every single one of them failed to help me, some even made me sicker. But conventional medicine has saved my life. Doesn't that make it a "fact" that there's nothing to alternative medicine?

 

[Chlorinated]

So if Mayo is used as a source for something you disagree with, it's not reliable, but you'll use it as a valid source if it supports your own beliefs?

I will accept anything from anyone so long as it is based on factual evidences e.g. actual reliable referenced studies and not just statements about what one thinks.
The Mayo clinic article on adrenal fatigue(or any conventional article) does not address the various specific issues I have raised so until they do that, I'm sticking with adrenal fatigue. Likewise most conventional doctors do not even know about the research done by Alessio fasano et al on leaky gut so they're clearly ignorant of the facts.
I also used these references because they are conventional and YOU accept them, had the references been alternative med articles you would have not accepted them.

My experience was very different; I saw many alternative practitioners and every single one of them failed to help me, some even made me sicker. But conventional medicine has saved my life. Doesn't that make it a "fact" that there's nothing to alternative medicine?

Now your just being silly. The fact that honey does cures coughs, apple cider does kill tinea fungus, mastic gum can kill some cases of h pylori etc, are all true facts and this proves there is SOMETHING to alternative medicine.

Your statement that you saw some alt doctors who couldn't help you doesn't make it a fact that there is nothing to the entire alternative medicine field. You also said you met bad doctors in the conventional field, does that make it a fact that there is nothing to the conventional field? Please.

I have already stated that I do use and believe in conventional medicine but within a context i.e. when there is NO alternative treatment, as an integrated approach or in emergency situations e.g. bacterial pnuemonia. Conventional medicine saves lives when alternative medicine may not have, that is a fact.

Therefore the point is not to pick and dismiss one over the other, but rather to consider both and use the appropriate medicine(conventional, alternative or both) for the given situation. Therefore neither is bad so long as it is used in the right context and to dismiss one or the other is utter nonsense.

 

[UnXmas]

Now your just being silly.

Yes, I was trying to just be silly.