Is this IBD cure too easy?

[Locke]

is this IBD cure too easy?

Sorry if this has been discussed. I'm new to this board and the disease.

According to: http://www.ccfa.org/reuters/ecoli

If I'm reading this right, to get Chron's you need both a problematic immune system AND a certain strain of E.coli bacteria.

So why not treat it like this:
1) culture all the bacteria in intestines except the pathogenic e.coli strain
2) take a large dose of antibiotics to kill ALL bacteria in your intestines
3) recolonize your intestines with the culture of non-harmful bacteria

Why wouldn't this work? As long as you avoid acquiring pathogenic e.coli again, you wouldn't have the two factors required for Chron's disease. If it turns out it is easy to re-acquire pathogenic e.coli, you could just irradiate all your food--problem solved.

Has this method been tested? Is anyone looking at this? All the reading I've done indicates that this bacteria is present in every Chron's patient, so getting rid of the bug should get rid of the disease...

 

[Kev]

They have initial (very small study group) indications there is a connection, and it appears to backup what they've seen in animal studies, but they don't understand the connection, or the modus/mechanics of how it all relates. I'm not sure, but I think I recall reading someplace, that they don't know exactly how many types/kinds of biotics live in the typical healthy GI tract, or their relationships, interdependancies, inter-mechanics (for want of a better/more fitting description). I don't know what particular brand of anti-biotic would decimate e. coli (can anyone jump in here with that info?) but think a lot of folks with IBD have been trialed on various anti-biotics. I went that route (tho the GI at the time said it had less than 1 shot in 4 of working).. Surprise, surprise... it didn't work for me, only messed up my stomach... Think for a/b strategy to work, it would have to be long term, probably broad spectrum, and you'd have to pray that every last vestige of the targeted 'bad boy' was totally erradicated... Elsewise, the 2nd generation would be resistant (nasty survival of the fittest strategy there!). Now, my take on the situation is definitely an oversimplification, and I've probably glossed over or completely neglected some key details, so I am totally open to someone jumping in, correcting me, or adding more info, but although this is promising, and offers great hope for the future, it is still too preliminary. Don't think any doctor will prescribe based on this, and playing hit/miss by targeting ALL biotics in our GI tracts is pretty risky. If it failed, it could mean the remaining 'good guys' get wiped out, the bad ones recoup first, and THEY populate the areas of your tract that are good now. Hey, bear in mind that this is the opinion of a complete amatuer, OK?

 

[katiesue1506]

I really love the fact that you are thinking... I love people who think! Ooh! And welcome to the forum!

I just remember a very BIG quote that ALL of my math, psych, econ, and sociology professors have told me... 'Correlation does not mean causation'. By this I mean, the e. coli bacteria has been correlated to IBD. I know we all have our own beliefs since the cause of Crohn's Disease hasn't been defined, but I am believer of the whole "a foreign invader bacteria came into our bodies, and since we are already predisposed to having Crohn's Disease (via a genetic chromosome mutation) our bodies kicked into 'fight mode' to kill off the bacteria, and never was able to stop itself" I think this way because my Crohn's Disease came about RIGHT (a month or so) after I had the Menningitis Vaccine for college. I was under loads of stress as well... but stress affects ANYONE negatively... especially those with chronic diseases. I think the menningitis freaked out my system and I never shut off my 'fight mode'. This is why it is quite interesting that immunosuppressants can help some people into remission. It suppresses the immunological response to the invaders the the body 'thinks' are there.

However, providing that you are right, your treatment method does seem very logical. I just don't think I got mine from e.coli. But your position is quite ponderous. Thank you!

 

[Locke]

Kev, it sounds like they just gave you an antibiotic to kill the bacteria, and let "whatever" recolonize your intestines. I'm proposing killing the bacteria and then deliberately recolonizing the intestines with the non-pathogenic strain of the bacteria. Though it may be possible that some amount of the pathogenic e.coli survives the antibiotic, if we deliberately introduce large amounts of harmless e.coli, the harmful e.coli would have to compete with them for food, and may not gain the high levels which seem to be implicated in Chron's.

Katie: Everybody has e.coli living in them, but there are different kinds of e.coli. I'm not proposing merely the destruction of e.coli; I'm proposing the deliberate re-balancing of the intestinal ecosystem so that the harmless type of e.coli make up the majority. And yes, correlation vs. causation is a good lesson to learn, however, if all Chron's cases are correlated with an unusually high numbers of a specific strain of bacteria, the probability of causation is relatively high, at least until a counter-example is found.

As for meningitis, it would be relatively trivial to find out if that vaccine increases the chance of the disease. A simple search of a database of medical histories could tell us that. Unfortunately, privacy laws prohibit the creation of such databases, I believe. At any rate, one datapoint (your case) with merely a temporal correlation, probably isn't enough to interest a researcher. Compound that with the fact that paranoia against vaccines has been so common, and you'll have a harder time interesting a researcher. I've had the meningitis vaccine, but that was five years before a Chron's diagnosis. Perhaps you could initiate a poll among Chron's suffers to see if the percentage of Chron's people who had the vaccine is significantly higher than the percentage of the population as a whole (age-adjusted, of course)?

 

[Mazen]

Does anybody know if there are any natural antibiotics against E. coli? I found some interesting studies on this

http://www.skincell.org/community/index.php?topic=9173.0

http://www.csrees.usda.gov/funding/nri/highlights/2002_no4.pdf

http://www.usc.edu/CSSF/Current/Projects/J1813.pdf

In this last study it was noted that natural antibiotics might cause bacteria resistance also. They mention garlic caused it but Honey didn't............

Also maybe try some Cranberry juice

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art40593.asp

 

[GregD]

Kev, it sounds like they just gave you an antibiotic to kill the bacteria, and let "whatever" recolonize your intestines. I'm proposing killing the bacteria and then deliberately recolonizing the intestines with the non-pathogenic strain of the bacteria. Though it may be possible that some amount of the pathogenic e.coli survives the antibiotic, if we deliberately introduce large amounts of harmless e.coli, the harmful e.coli would have to compete with them for food, and may not gain the high levels which seem to be implicated in Chron's.

Katie: Everybody has e.coli living in them, but there are different kinds of e.coli. I'm not proposing merely the destruction of e.coli; I'm proposing the deliberate re-balancing of the intestinal ecosystem so that the harmless type of e.coli make up the majority. And yes, correlation vs. causation is a good lesson to learn, however, if all Chron's cases are correlated with an unusually high numbers of a specific strain of bacteria, the probability of causation is relatively high, at least until a counter-example is found.

As for meningitis, it would be relatively trivial to find out if that vaccine increases the chance of the disease. A simple search of a database of medical histories could tell us that. Unfortunately, privacy laws prohibit the creation of such databases, I believe. At any rate, one datapoint (your case) with merely a temporal correlation, probably isn't enough to interest a researcher. Compound that with the fact that paranoia against vaccines has been so common, and you'll have a harder time interesting a researcher. I've had the meningitis vaccine, but that was five years before a Chron's diagnosis. Perhaps you could initiate a poll among Chron's suffers to see if the percentage of Chron's people who had the vaccine is significantly higher than the percentage of the population as a whole (age-adjusted, of course)?

Locke,
What you're suggesting is essentially the theory behind probiotics, aside from initially killing all intestinal bacteria. In simple terms, probiotics are intended to crowd your gut with "good bacteria." The "good bacteria" pushes out the "bad bacteria," which you can literally feel during the first few days after taking them. After a while, the "good bacteria" cultures and helps maintain a normal ratio of good to bad bacteria in your gut, which in turn will ideally help balance your immune system.
I've been on a probiotic called Primal Defense for about three months and have been pleased with the results.

-Greg

 

[D Bergy]

I followed the same line of thinking, but not being sure of the pathogens involved I decided I needed to kill all of them. Had no clue how to do it either. Antibiotics kill indiscriminately. All or most all bacteria in your intestinal tract.

That did not seem like a good idea. Just like magic, I started reading about Miracle Mineral Supplement aka MMS. Aside from the bogus name, it is basically Chlorine Dioxide that you drink. This has been used for water treatment and other industrial type applications, but has not generally been used as a treatment method for people. Apparently this guy, Jim Humble has been using it as a Malaria treatment in Africa. His story is quite long, but the bottom line is he found out that it worked for many ailments.

The chemistry is that Chlorine Dioxide kills most all pathogens at a pH below the human bodies natural pH. Pathogenic Bacteria and viruses and the like almost all fall within this pH category. Beneficial bacteria does not. It works by taking electrons from the bacteria basically tearing it apart. It is quite effective. Oxidation is the method of destruction.

I used it for a month and it brought my Crohn's symptoms, the few I had, to a halt for six weeks. After that I received my LDN prescription and quit using it for a while. Now I use it once a week to kill any left over bacteria in my intestinal tract. Between the LDN and the MMS I have no indication that I have Crohn's anymore. Does that mean it will work for everyone? Probably not, but I really have no idea. I am the only one that has used it for Crohn's.

My wife uses it for Chronic Lyme disease, and it is killing that off better than other methods we have used. One English doctor is using it for Chronic Lyme also, with a cure after 18 months of use. Chronic Lyme is almost impossible to cure by any method.

It is an experimental treatment method, and that means the chance of some unforeseen side effect or reaction. It breaks down into salt after a few hours so residual effects are extremely unlikely. You may want to look into it and see if it is something you would be interested in. Do a search here, as I have posted on this before.

Here is a discussion forum that has info on it. Some other links of interest also. All I can say is my experience has been very good with it, and have had no ill effects from it.

http://www.natmedtalk.com/

http://bioredox.mysite.com/CLOXhtml/CLOXhome.htm

http://miraclemineral.org/

I do not think it is for everyone. You have to have a comfort level with the unknown, but this is not out of the ordinary for myself, as I use a few other unconventional methods beside this.

Dan Bergman

 

[dad_01]

Treating Crohns with Antibiotics

I ran across some information pertaining to your comments.

There's a Dr. Pimentel (at cedars-sinai in los angeles) who prescribes a 10 day treatment using the antibiotic Xifaxan. Then he puts on your low doses of zelnorm.

Here's a site for his book: http://www.anewibssolution.com/pressroom.htm

A Dr. Leonard Weinstock is doing something similar. Here's a newspaper article:

http://mednews.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/5509.html

A couple of comments about the treatment:

"I consider this preliminary, very exciting information," said Dr. Charlene Prather, a gastroenterologist at St. Louis University. "But it's not the panacea to cure all IBS, nor is it the cause of all IBS."

The theory has not yet been adequately tested, said Dr. Arnold Wald, director of the gastroenterology fellowship training program at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. The breath test measures gas production for a two-hour period following drinking a sugar solution. But no one has yet proved that the sugar only reaches the small intestine during that time.

"Their theory is novel and provocative, but, in my opinion, they've not yet proven it," Wald said.

 

[Cog]

My GI has me on Xifaxan for quite a while and touch wood the Crohns has been in remission since - I also take Bactrin to prevent another infection for my eyes. I take an probiotic - Primal Defense as well, Now I take cholestyramine to slow the frequency down. If it works I am happy

 

[saidinstouch]

I would recommend vsl#3 as the probiotic of choice. I tried primal defense for a while, but the number of pills you have to take for the best results is simply incredible. vsl on the other hand comes in packets and is the only clinically proven probiotic to have an affect with IBD. Granted this shows other probiotics should work as well, but each probiotic comes with its own balance of good bacteria, as well as types, and amounts. If you look at the numbers between primal defense and vsl#3 you'ld be blown away by the difference.

If you get results from primal defense however, then stay on it till you are unhappy because why fix something that isn't broken? But if you are looking to try starting probiotics, I would look into vsl#3 as the one you start because everything I have heard or read on probiotics says it is the best of the best. Aside from florastor it is the only probiotic I have heard a doctor actively recommend taking.

 

[Mazen]

The SCD diet goes in the same line of thinking.

Of all dietary components, carbohydrates have the greatest influence on intestinal microbes (yeast and bacteria) which are believed to be involved in intestinal disorders. Most intestinal microbes require carbohydrates for energy. The SCD works by severely limiting the availability of carbohydrates to intestinal microbes. When carbohydrates are not digested, they are not absorbed. They remain in the intestinal tract, thus encouraging microbes to multiply by providing food for them. This can lead to the formation of acids and toxins which can injure the small intestine. Once bacteria multiply within the small intestine, they can destroy the enzymes on the intestinal cell surface, preventing carbohydrate digestion and absorption. At this point, production of excessive mucus may be triggered as the intestinal tract attempts to "lubricate" itself against the irritation caused by the toxins, acids, and the presence of incompletely digested and unabsorbed carbohydrates.

The SCD is based on the principle that specifically selected carbohydrates requiring minimal digestion are well absorbed, leaving virtually nothing for intestinal microbes to feed on. As the microbes decrease due to lack of food, their harmful by-products also diminish. No longer needing protection, the mucus producing cells stop producing excessive mucus and carbohydrate digestion is improved. The SCD corrects malabsorption, allowing nutrients to enter the bloodstream and be made available to the cells of the body, thereby strengthening the immune system's ability to fight. Further debilitation is prevented, weight can return to normal, and ultimately there is a return to health.

Normal Bacteria is restored by eating homemade yoghurt fermented for 24 hours.

http://www.scdiet.org/1about/default.html

Now the big problem , is that the diet is very strict (No starch, potatoes, sugar etc.....), and hard to follow; I never was able to go through it more than a few days ............