M.a.p

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kiny

kiny

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What do you think of M.A.P., do you believe it might cause crohn's? The more I read about it, the more I think Crohn's can't only be genetic, even though my dad had it, I think something must have triggered it.

Watch the videos and tell me what you think. Thank you.

Videos 1-9-10:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pYuf5rnnQo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02alCr0cmd0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrHOC0kYbus&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XScG474EiI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XScG474EiI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py0FJmfMQLU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPqbDXoVG5c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kecG1j8e7QA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g15GuiYYmLg&feature=related
 
Interesting theories.

No one in my family has Crohn's. My aunt has UC, which became active only after she quit smoking. I also believe it is more than genetics.

- Amy
 
No one in my family has had a history of cd or uc but yet I've had health issues since I was 5 n I have cd. Weird.
 
Around the 7th or 8th video he says that infliximab might also kill cells inhibited by the MAP bacteria. Professor Borody says the same thing later in his videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crm4pKz6X2M

If Crohn's is the MAP bacteria and assuming that infliximab can kill MAP cells, it might explain why most people react so positive to infliximab.

MAP also explains why Crohn's starts at a certain age, and not at birth, because it's simply a bacterial infection. They did mention that MAP can be transmitted through breast feeding though.

And it explains why some parts of the world have Crohn's and others do not. Their livestock is not infected with MAP + it explains why people who travel from parts of the world without Crohn's to parts with Crohn's get sick, if it was a genetic autoimmune disease that wouldn't be possible.
 
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True. Very interesting info. I personally think its quite possible crohns is from something other than genetics. I responded well and quickly to remicade so it really makes me wonder.
 
Dr. Borody of Australia has pretty much proven that Crohn's is caused by the MAP bacteria.

His research has fulfilled Koch's postulates which is a high standard of proof.

He has his own videos which are pretty interesting for those who like to dig into the nuts and bolts of the disease.

At this time, I am using an alternative treatment method to try kill all the MAP bacteria that I may have. I do not know the results yet, but targeting it sure put my guts in a uproar.

Dan
 
Thanks, keep us updated on your treatment please.

What I find funny is that as far back as 1905 German bacteriologist Heinrich Albert Johne discovered Johne's disease in animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paratuberculosis), which is just an animal form of MAP causing infections in animals, i.e. Crohn's disease in animals. So that MAP might be the cause of Crohn's has been known for over a century but never seriously funded or recognised until now.
 
I read quite a bit into Map as i was convinced i 'caught' Crohns on a visit to the US where i may have drunk some unpasturized milk or something.

When the evidence is presented in the way it is, its very convincing and it makes sense. Part of what i read doesnt make sense though. Ill quote from my IBD book as i cant find a link online.

"In small studies, a course of antibiotics against MAP has succesfully treated crohns symptoms in some individuals. However to prove that MAP is the cause of crohns disease,

-MAP would need to be present in every person with Crohns
-Treatment of MAP would need to cure Crohns completely
-Scientists would need to be able to cause Crohns if they infected someone with MAP"

And also, how does that explain UC? Dont get me wrong, its really tempting to blame MAP because then id assume the scientists could cure me almost instantly. Although Immoral, im sure pharmaceuticals would be reluctant to confirm a cure but Crohns is still a rare disease so its not like they make a lot of money from current treatment.

I would like to be tested for MAP though to see if ive got it, ive always drink a lot of milk since an early age so the possibilty is there.
 
The videos explain those points.

Mister_Hotspur said:
-MAP would need to be present in every person with Crohns
Click to expand...

No it wouldn't. MAP is incredibly hard to detect because the bacteria lives in cells. Even with blood culture it can take years to detect it.

MAP was not detected in sheep AFTER they injected MAP in them. What was seen was an immune response, which proves that MAP is not readily detected even if the organism has MAP inside them.

If MAP is not present in every person (it IS detected in the majority of Crohn's patients) does not mean that MAP is not the cause in the patients with MAP. One does not rule the other out.

Mister_Hotspur said:
-Treatment of MAP would need to cure Crohns completely
Click to expand...

No, because bacterial infection is often partly cured. It is incredibly hard to eradicate a bacteria from the body completely in every single cell, especially when the bacteria is intercellular, as was shown with Johne's disease in animals.

Mister_Hotspur said:
-Scientists would need to be able to cause Crohns if they infected someone with MAP"
Click to expand...

They can, in animals, when they infect an animal with MAP it causes Johne's disease with the exact same symptoms of Crohn's disease in humans. No one is going to infect a real human being with Crohn's just for testing.

Mister_Hotspur said:
its really tempting to blame MAP because then id assume the scientists could cure me almost instantly
Click to expand...

Bacterial infections can take months to cure, as is seen with tuberculosis.
 
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Has the drug been available in Canada? Checked the web and it's vague.
Seems since I did a 10 day treatment of cipro and flagyl I've alleviated a lot of the problem...still having a bowel movement problem but the pain is gone.
 
Even if they discovered tomorrow that MAP causes Crohn's there is no real practical method currently used that can eliminate it in a reasonable amount of time.

It takes years of antibiotics, as MAP reproduce slowly, and most antibiotics kill at this reproductive stage. I do not think it is so much that the experts are not reasonably sure of what causes it, as there is not a practical way to treat it either way.

Dan
 
i feel better after cipro/flagyl and believe that MAP could have caused my gastroenteritis which triggered crohn's. I'm about to be tested for a bunch of stuff. Stool sample.

i think MAP could be the problem or H Pylori.The doctor who discovered H Pylori received a nobel peace prize in science for discovering that a bacteria caused uclers instead of stress. If a bacteria can cause upper GI ulcers why can't a bacteria cause a lower GI uclers?
 
JohnnyO said:
i feel better after cipro/flagyl and believe that MAP could have caused my gastroenteritis which triggered crohn's. I'm about to be tested for a bunch of stuff. Stool sample.
Click to expand...

Good to hear. The antibiotics cocktail that they patented and are doing phase III trials with currently are: Rifabutin, Clarithromycin and Clofazimine.

That and probiotics will hopefully keep us protected in the future without any side-effects.
 
Any more info on that antibiotic cocktail? Is that for MAP? Luckily I have an amazing open minded family doc that will test me for anything I want. Unfortunately my GI doc is annoyingly stubborn and thinks more 6mp and humira is the answer to everything and I just get a guilt trip whenever I see him.
 
JohnnyO said:
Any more info on that antibiotic cocktail? Is that for MAP? Luckily I have an amazing open minded family doc that will test me for anything I want. Unfortunately my GI doc is annoyingly stubborn and thinks more 6mp and humira is the answer to everything and I just get a guilt trip whenever I see him.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's RHB-104. http://www.centralfloridafuture.com/news/professor-patents-test-for-possible-crohn-s-disease-cure-1.2646645

this is the cocktail that pfizer inherited when they bought a medical company, but pfizer decided there wasn't enough money in it so it so it has been picked up by another company, they are in phase II trials in the US and phase III in Europe.

My guess is that Pfizer knew that Rifabutin, Clarithromycin and Clofazimine are long ago been qualified as generic drugs for TB etc, and wouldn't make them enough money.
 
this article:

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400769/Too-Many-Autoimmune-Diseases.html

is more my line of thinking. i think we're so anti-germ now that we've taken away everything our immune system is supposed to fight, and when it doesn't have anything left to do, it turns on itself.
i thought the therapy at the end was interesting. introducing pathogens to basically give our immune system something to do. i'd be willing to try that.
 
flowergirl said:
this article:

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400769/Too-Many-Autoimmune-Diseases.html

is more my line of thinking. i think we're so anti-germ now that we've taken away everything our immune system is supposed to fight, and when it doesn't have anything left to do, it turns on itself.
i thought the therapy at the end was interesting. introducing pathogens to basically give our immune system something to do. i'd be willing to try that.
Click to expand...

I believe this could be part of the puzzle. There are some reports that people who have crohn's have lived a "clean" life and came less into contact with bacteria.


Crohn's is uncommon in Africa, this has three possible reasons I know of:

*they don't keep their food in refridgerators, some bacteria need to be cooled to survive
*they are less hygienic than us and come into contact with more bacteria -> so they build up more resistance
*they don't have animals infected with MAP

There is a 4th explanation that doesn't make sense...namely that it is only genetic and we were somehow born with an autoimmune disease...it doesn't make sense because when people from Africa, from countries with very low crohn's indices come to the West, some do get crohn's. So lifestyle is likely part of the puzzle, it is not just genes. Something happened to us in the course of our lives, our lifestyle, our contact with bacteria, that triggered the disease (regardless of genetics which are likely the other part of the puzzle).

(crohn's is actually common in South Africa, one of the few 'Westernized' African nations, I think this is an important clue)
 
flowergirl said:
here's an article about the TSO therapy.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=helminthic-therapy-mucus
Click to expand...

Aye, this is the same line of thinking as probiotics. I take yakult because of the probiotics in them, but not all probiotics are created equal, some actually get activated and other do not (gene related). Next visit with my doctor and biologist I will discuss this. I think protecting our mucosa is vital to us. If we can't stop MAP or bacterial infections ourselves, why not let our own bugs do it, that's what they're there for.
 
I'm totally convinced it was MAP that got me, because one day I was swimming in the sea near a small river outlet (cattle in fields next to the river) the next chronic diarrhea. It was as if a switch was flipped inside my body. I'm not saying that MAP is the main cause for everyone-far from it. But for me it would appear to be the common denominator.
Rgds
Grant
 
I also like grant agree that it was a bacterial bug that triggered my crohn's, I was fine one day then a combination of things (eg working with a patient who later died due to fibrosis of the lungs / TB and we had just got a new dog etc etc) happened and I got sick, I can't pin point anything exactly but it's always at the back of my mind. I was always a bit obsessive about never eating anything out of date etc that my family joked that I was too 'clean' and thats why I got crohn's. One last interesting point I have just finished a course of clarithromycin for a chest infection and my stomach has been the best its been in weeks... coincidence maybe who knows but definitely interesting research.
 
Since Remicaid is suppose to kill the MAP cells in this theory, shouldn't Humira and Cimzia do the same thing? If so, then why do so many people fail Remicaid, Humira, and Cimzia and end up just as sick as before. If this is true about MAP, then shouldn't you be rid of all of your Crohn's symptoms while taking these medications, and ultimately be cured of it?

I'm a bit "ignorant" here with what you are talking about, as I have not researched this at all. I'm just simply curious about the questions above.
 
Manzyb, I'm not sure it works like that. It was explained to me ( along time ago) that MAP attacked the faulty gene. Once the gene is attacked thats it. You may have remission but the gene remains defective..I think. :lol:
Grant
 
Manzyb said:
Since Remicaid is suppose to kill the MAP cells in this theory, shouldn't Humira and Cimzia do the same thing? If so, then why do so many people fail Remicaid, Humira, and Cimzia and end up just as sick as before.
Click to expand...

They should in theory.

I don't know why some fail remi, .. some create antibodies and it becomes ineffective, but I hear some just fail it full stop.

Manzyb said:
If this is true about MAP, then shouldn't you be rid of all of your Crohn's symptoms while taking these medications, and ultimately be cured of it?
Click to expand...

I would say no, since the cell death signaling of TNF blockers is a minor side effect. If we assume it's MAP, TNF blockers wouldn't do the trick on their own. And even if TNF blockers were able to take out MAP, at the same time you are surpressing your own body to fight off MAP by themselves (if genes allow for it), so I don't even know if that would end up negative or positive.

That's why "some" are saying "TNF blockers might make the disease worse" in the long run.
 
grant, but if that were true, then why would these doctors who think this be trying to come up with antibiotic therapy and vaccines? if it's a bacteria that permanently alters your immune system, regardless of treatment, then why spend millions on a worthless therapy?
and if it's something that's just caused by a bacteria, more people would have it, and immunosuppressants wouldn't work for anyone.
i was reading on a site that is petitioning for $$ for dr john hermon-taylor?'s map vaccines that it only "works" 50% of the time and "some" of those have relapses. no statistics on the relapses, so i have to think it's probably pretty high.
 
flowergirl said:
g
and if it's something that's just caused by a bacteria, more people would have it, and immunosuppressants wouldn't work for anyone.
Click to expand...

Why do you feel immunosuppressants wouldn't work for anyone if it's a bacteria. It's still stopping the secondary effect of inflammation, regardless how we feel about the cause. (it might not be a good method at all, but it should show relief, like it does currently)

Inflammation is part of bacterial infections, even if it happens in the colon.

The idea that Crohn's is MAP or related to bacteria go hand in hand with inflammation, if anything both support each other.
 
the immunosuppresants probably stop the MAP from reproducing so it lies dormant. if immunosuppresants are so awesome, those taking them wouldn't have resections and surgeries. the meds wouldn't stop working after a few years etc.
 
yes, but you're still suppressing the immune system. like if you already have TB, if you take an immune suppressor, it's going to get worse.
 
flowergirl said:
yes, but you're still suppressing the immune system. like if you already have TB, if you take an immune suppressor, it's going to get worse.
Click to expand...

In theory yes, assuming it is a bacterial infection and assuming our own body is able to fight it off, you're right, it should make it worse in the long run, no one is denying this atm.

But even if, it might still be the best choice at the time as a temporary solutions, they still give immunosuppressants to some with infections if the inflammation is too high, even if they treat them with antibiotics after.
 
i don't think immunosuppressants are wonderful. i think they're horrible and i hate that i'm on one and would like to get off it asap. but i also don't think that's it's as simple as, it's a bacteria.
 
flowergirl said:
i don't think immunosuppressants are wonderful. i think they're horrible and i hate that i'm on one and would like to get off it asap. but i also don't think that's it's as simple as, it's a bacteria.
Click to expand...

Same, I simply don't like the idea of suppressing our immune system, it's really not a solution. Even if it is not even bacteria related, it's just a horrible patch-up job with possible side-effects atm.

There was a study where people with crohn's were injected with a harmless bacteria, turns out that crohn's patients had a lot less white blood cells and their blood flow was a lot slower compared to a healthy person, which means they were a lot more susceptible to bacteria in general. (blood flow and white blood count should increase X fold when the body encounters a bacteria)

Oh, these were people who weren't on immunosuppressants btw, they were innately more susceptible.
 
kiny said:
Crohn's is uncommon in Africa, this has three possible reasons I know of:

*they don't keep their food in refridgerators, some bacteria need to be cooled to survive
Click to expand...

The refridgerator is a relatively recent invention, so you do not need to go back too far in time to find people even in the West not using them (my parents as children for example). I believe there has been some research which showed there is a correlation between increased use of refridgerated food and Crohn's disease.

kiny said:
There is a 4th explanation that doesn't make sense...namely that it is only genetic and we were somehow born with an autoimmune disease...it doesn't make sense because when people from Africa, from countries with very low crohn's indices come to the West, some do get crohn's. So lifestyle is likely part of the puzzle, it is not just genes. Something happened to us in the course of our lives, our lifestyle, our contact with bacteria, that triggered the disease (regardless of genetics which are likely the other part of the puzzle).
Click to expand...

I am quite convinced it is a combination of genetic factors and something (bacteria, virus, pollutant, etc.) that enters our body. I believe this because I can remember a distinct transition from being well to being unwell. Plus the fact that we are all capable of going into remission often for long periods of time.
 
JMC said:
I am quite convinced it is a combination of genetic factors and something (bacteria, virus, pollutant, etc.) that enters our body. I believe this because I can remember a distinct transition from being well to being unwell.
Click to expand...

I think everyone can who has crohn's. There is a very distinct period in time that defines the onset of crohn's for a person (although I would love to hear from people where this wasn't the case, it would be a first for me).

This doesn't mean anything by itself, but it also works well with the idea that crohn's is triggered by an outside entity.

The counterargument would be, but my X month old has crohn's. MAP was found in breastmilk.
 
I immediately go into remission after taking just 2 or 3 clarithromycin (Biaxin) pills over 2 days. The remission does not last long (maybe 5-7 days) but for me there is a a clear and distinct relationship here.

How can bacteria and Crohn's not be related?
 
JohnnyO said:
Me too! I always feel better during antibiotics if taken during flare. They can also cause D but they do knock back the bacteria
Click to expand...

Sorry JohnnyO but what do you mean by D?

Hmmm. OK so maybe I'm not crazy when I tell my GI Doctor clarithromycin stops my ills.

I have just started taking flagyl after mentioning the antibiotic issue to my doctor.
 
GKVARGA said:
I immediately go into remission after taking just 2 or 3 clarithromycin (Biaxin) pills over 2 days. The remission does not last long (maybe 5-7 days) but for me there is a a clear and distinct relationship here.

How can bacteria and Crohn's not be related?
Click to expand...

I agree I've just finished a course of clarithromycine and my tummy was great better than normal as I'm in remission. Ive just needed 4 lots of antibiotics to clear up a chest infection and I'm not on immunosuppresants ( luckily!). My bloods indicated a bacterial infection.
 

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