Alternative Doctor Experience

[D Bergy]

Today my wife and myself had an appointment with an alternative practitioner using some unique methods. I use some of the same treatment methods he does but he had a few new ones that I have heard of but no personal experience with.

The appointment was mostly for my wife who has undiagnosed Lyme Disease. This is what got me into alternative treatments to begin with. It was all I had available to treat her.

Although I have been able to halt and even reverse the disease process, I have not been able to totally eliminate it. This is why we went to see him since he claims to have a 90% cure rate for Lyme Disease.

His diagnosis method involves using an electronic instrument made in Germany (most of these devices are made and also used there). It uses frequencies which are transmitted through acupuncture points and it detects bacteria, viruses etc by the resonant frequency that these pathogens emit. Supposedly using this device on the acupuncture points allows you to pinpoint where in the body these pathogens exist.

Well, I know that the theory of finding pathogens by their resonance is theoretically possible, but I was skeptical as to whether instrumentation was actually available that could really do that task.

I will not give any opinions on the diagnostic methods, but here is what he found.

My wife has both Lyme Borrelia and the tick born coinfection Babesia.

What I have been treating her for based on my own thinking and her symptoms over the last three years are Lyme Borrelia and the coinfection Babesia. Although I thought I had eliminated the Babesia long ago.

Here is what he found in me. H-Pylori, which he says is in my bloodstream.
MAP bacteria, and he also says my body is not doing well with my Tetanus Inoculation. Mind you, I did not tell him I ever even had one, but in reality it is the only vaccination I have had in recent history.

I have been treating my Crohn's by attempting to kill the MAP bacteria, and mutant E-Coli. He did not find any abnormal E-Coli. I have treated for H-Pylori for an inflamed stomach lining and I eliminated the problem. I assumed I killed it throughout my body since I have no stomach symptoms. Maybe not.

He also said that he almost always finds H-Pylori and MAP bacteria in the Crohn's patients he treats. He said on occasion he will find some unusual strain of E-Coli but not often.

We both have homeopathic treatments for our respective illnesses and he encourages us to keep treating the Lyme as we have been since it is an effective method when used correctly.

I asked quite a few technical questions but never even thought to ask how well his Crohn's patients fare. But I will when I see him again.

Something to roll around in your head for a while.

Dan

 

[Jeff D.]

Let me know some of his treatments by pm if you can. I would love to see what he his treatment ideas are. Also, if it is not too much to ask could I have his name and possibly his email address to see if he has anyone in my area he would advise me to see. Thanks having someone like this would help my girlfriend understand my options.

Thanks my friend

 

[Miss]

Sounds like what you are describing is kinesiology, muscle testing. This is what we do for my husband and his chronic lyme. So far, this has been the only thing to improve his condition over the past four years and tons of doc, neurologists, neurosurgeons, etc. Good luck with it.

Take care,

Miss

 

[sh!+_stains]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Anywhere to get information on the diagnostic machine he uses? I am skeptically interested in how it works.

David

 

[Colt]

All he did was name things he knew were somewhat related to the diseases you guys told him you had. You can pick up E. Coli and MAP from 10 minutes or less of a google search on crohn's disease. Lyme disease is a no-brainer. As for your tetanus shot, everyone in the western world has had a tetanus shot.

It's really not any different from what 'psychics' like John Edwards do. They throw out guesses on what they think you expect to hear and you naturally manipulate whatever is said to fit your own situation. Not that it's 100% that he's a knowing con man. Some people even manage to fool themselves after people hype them so much, thinking that they must be getting their guesses from somewhere special if people think they're correct so often.

As for homeopathic treatments hopefully the term is being misused because homeopathy is the idea that you treat an illness basically by giving someone more small doses of that illness/symptom. So if you have lead poisoning a homeopathic cure would be to give you small amounts of lead. If you have a stomach ulcer you take small doses of aspirin which cause stomach ulcers. The idea is that a small amount of anything does the exact opposite of a large amount of anything. Homeopathy was proven to be wrong and incredibly harmful over a hundred years ago with the application of the scientific method to medicine.

 

[Miss]

The guy we see doesn't use a machine. He also doesn't say anything that would lead you to agree with what he is saying. He has small vials containing different viruses, bacterias, etc. He narrowed my husband's lyme disease down and never even asked what symptoms he had. If he had asked, I would imagine he would have said MS as that's what the neurologists were leaning toward.
Within a week my husband was having less pain, eventually to the point of no pain with no prescription meds.
Shortly after we started seeing this guy I got copies of my husbands medical records. Right there it is in black and white. Misdiagnosed as the flu in '01 he was hospitalized for five days. Our family MD only ever told us he "probably" had Rocky Mtn. Spotted Fever. Well he definately had that along with lyme and ehrlichiosis co-infection. He was suppose to be retested but the doc never orderred retesting, apparently he was coverring his own butt.
It wasn't caught in a timely manner and he was never properly treated for lyme so it was eating away at his trigeminal nerve and he had stabbing pain in the side of his head all the time. He was on anti-seizure meds, nerve pain med, and codeine every day. Oh, and that MD just happened to retire three months after I got the medical records and threw a fit about the whole ordeal. I look forward to reading his obituary someday after a long and painfull illness as I believe what comes around goes around and he'll get his. I have very little faith in conventional doctors, whatever happened to first do no harm. I guess that doesn't apply when they are coverring up their own errors.

Miss

 

[MINI Cooper]

I've had multiple sessions of kinesiology, or muscle testing. no machine.
Can't say it did much, but who knows. My mother in law is a homeopathic doctor.

 

[D Bergy]

It is not kinesiology or muscle testing. My chiropractor does that although I am skeptical as to how that could work. But, I have seen stranger things.

This is all done by frequencies. I know how some devices of this type are supposed to work and I would guess the principle is the same with this one.

The device sends multiple frequencies through the body and when something in the body matches one of those frequencies it changes the feedback. If the resonant frequency of say H-Pylori is known that is how it is identified. I am sure it is not quite that simple as there are interferences and substances in the body that can produce inconsistent results. The operator has to know when something is likely producing a bogus reading. Most of these devices are over $20,000

I have heard a few discussions on these problems with cheaper devices that are supposed to do this.

I do not know what specific device he is using, but I will find out.

I guess the whole thing could be a fraud if he is good at that sort of thing. The method is used in several countries, and quite a lot in Germany, at least that is what I have heard over the years.

It will be obvious if it is bogus. Since I have been the only one treating my wife, and I know her symptoms better than anyone, I will know within a couple of months if she is improving.

Her diagnosis was fairly obvious to me, but two different MD's said they did not believe she had Lyme by their tests and professional opinions. It is a good thing I was not dumb enough to believe them. She was having trouble walking at that point. She gets around just fine now.

The Homeopathy part works by tricking the body into thinking it is being reinfected so it starts fighting the bacteria like it did in the beginning. I have no clue if it works or not, but it sounds pretty similar to a vaccination without the potential side effects.

I really have no way of knowing if it does anything for me, since I have no symptoms to go by. I guess I do have one. He stated that my psoriasis on my shin is from the Tetanus vaccine. He says that will clear up quickly. I have had it for three years now so if it suddenly goes away, it will likely not be a coincidence.

It will be interesting to see if it works or not. I hope it does, because hardly anyone that has had Lyme this long is ever cured by any conventional method or otherwise.

I will keep you posted if anything remarkable or unremarkable happens.

Dan

 

[Miss]

The place we go uses one of those machines as well. We've never used it, just the old fashioned muscle testing. I think they are well over twenty grand though. The one our guy uses looks a lot more expensive than that, I saw it used once and the printout was amazing.

Miss

 

[D Bergy]

I guess that is one thing that is inconsistent in the huckster practitioner scenario.

If you are going to rip people of on a worthless diagnosis or treatment it really does not make sense to spend a lot of money on the device. I know that most all of these type devices are over $20,000, and up to $75,000. You could make a fake device for a few hundred dollars. It does not make sense in that context.

What would make more sense is if the practitioner really believed the device can do what it claims, but it really is not able to do what is claimed. Then he would either have to go on to cheat and mislead the patient willingly to recoup his money or be extremely dense and believe in the device in spite of misdiagnoses that go contrary to his medical training. Not to mention patients that rarely improve.

I can believe this scenario could probably happen when non medical people decide to do this. You see massage therapists that get into these type of services. They really do not have experience in typical medical training, so they would be easier to fool than an MD or a DC. They also do not make the income of a MD or a DC. They are substantially increasing their income.

Why a doctor would risk his license to do this if it was fraudulent does not make a whole lot of sense. Even if it is 100% legitimate, a doctor has a good chance to receive a visit from the FDA if they use these type of devices. The one I saw was in court over his, since he was one of the first to use one in our state. He won his case, but I am sure it cost tens of thousands in legal fees. You would think that would be discouraging enough for a person who makes plenty of money, either way. Why not just make it easy on yourself and throw it in the garbage?

I suppose he could just be one stubborn SOB and is a pathological rip off artist. But I think it is more likely that he is in fact stubborn but he believes he is doing the right thing to help his patients. He either has evidence through his practice that the method works or he is delusional and believes it because he cannot look at it objectively.

I think it has to be one of the last two scenarios in this persons case. Only time will tell me which he is.

Dan

 

[Colt]

You're saying a Medical Doctor used this device? Homeopathic practitioners are not medical doctors. If there's a Dr. before their name it's no different from being a doctor of Theology or English. Homeopathic doctors are not subject to oversight either. They are required to be certified by a private certifying company to prove that they actually did something to call themselves a homeopath but that's it. There's no regulation of truth or good practice in what they're taught. The FDA has no jurisdiction over their treatments or 'prescriptions' as they fall under the food category and are not considered drugs.

Medical devices in the US are limited to the use/ownership of certified operators as well (with a few exceptions like home drug/pregnancy/glucose tests that have to be specially approved). If this were a medical device a homeopathic doctor would not be allowed to own one. Of course you can't sue a homeopath for using a bacteria resonance finder any more than you can sue the Scientologists for their evil spirit resonance finder. Legally you're not entitled to scientifically proven methodology when you use a homeopath or any other folk or religious healer.

As for the costs, regardless of if it really works the device brings in more people which means more money thus paying for the device. Tarot card decks and tables are expensive but if you give enough readings over time you'll make the money back and then some.

When it comes to this stuff there's a lot of suspension of disbelief on everyone's part. Not long ago there was a scientific test of dousing rods. The people using them absolutely thought they worked but they found water almost exactly on par with random chance. Does that mean that the dousing rod people were knowing scam artists and bad people? No. Does that mean that they were making money off of something that wasn't true? Yes.

 

[Creepy Lurker]

I'm not a physics person, so I don't understand how bacteria and viruses can resonate.

Does this technique have a name?

 

[danman]

The resident cynic has spoken.....!!!!

Actually, I agree with you about alternative methods of medicine Colt.
If believing helps people, that's fine. the mind is probably the greatest healer. But we should not suspend our belief in science and real medicine.

There has always been a small cottage industry here in Ireland of religious healers. People who believe they have healing hands and such. This helps some people psychologically (I witnessed the family of a man with a severe brain injury bringing in a healer while I was in hospital recently, He didn't know they were there, but I'm sure it gave the family a feeling of actually helping the patient.)

What I find worrying, is when patients decide that science doesn't know what it's doing and only tries to control their conditions with alternatives. If they continue to use their prescribed Meds and also go to alternative medicine practitioners, let them spend their money.

The son of Family friends of mine recently completed a 4 year course on some form of alternative med, don't ask me what, I haven't a clue. Would I let him treat me? Not on your Nelly. I have nothing against alternative Med, but I am left handed, therefore right side brain dominated, science and tech leaning male.

People can be quick to dismiss science and medicine, but a lot more people and smarter people go into this profession than into alternative practices. Also, more money is spent on research and development in normal medicine. Just how much research has gone into homeopathic treatments and such? Has as many clinical trials been carried out on these alternative methods as there is on conventional medicine? Remember, each country carries out it's own trials on new meds before allowing them to be used.

I'm sorry for the rant, but I've always believed that if Primrose oil (or whatever)was all I needed to stay in remission, I'm sure my GI Doc and my GP (MD) would have told me. It would save my taxes a lot of expense. It just so happens that they believe I needed some of the most expensive medications on the market at present, for the last 10 years.

Again I'll say this, if you believe in alternative medicine and you believe it helps, fine. But use it in conjunction with conventional meds.

 

[sh!+_stains]

I hate to say this, because this is what GIs always say when you ask them about things, but if it worked 'they' would know about it. Right now microbiologists are struggling to develop a validated assay for MAP, but if this device works then why don't they know about it or use it?

How specific is MAP's resonance compared to other mycobacteria's? IS900, a frickin DNA insertion element, is not specific enough, but its resonance is?

Germany tends to be ahead in a lot of medical areas...?

Don't get me wrong. I love alternatives and think that there should be more money spent researching alternatives that can't be patented and so end up not being able to raise funds to go through the clinical trials. It would be awesome if the SCD had a large scale clinical trial, or if fecal transplants had a large scale trial, or if chlorine dioxide, but this would require public funding because no one is going to fund a SCD trial when they can't recoup the costs of the clinical trial after it is done, so governments and foundations need to step up. But don't let no clinical trials be a deterrent for not trying an alternative: if there is good basic/wet/bench science behind it, and so good biological plausibility, then go for it as long as it is safe.

 

[Miss]

I honestly believe that as long as they can keep you sick they are happy. My gastro thought I was nuts for mentioning SCD, told me to eat whatever I wanted, eat more bread! Then I read piles of info the opposite. Don't bother with a probiotic! Huh??????
You are going to have to be on Remicade the rest of your life. No, the rash, oral thrush, joint pain, blurry vision, hair loss, and petechaie, has nothing to do with the remicade, it's the pred. Well I'm still on a little pred, no remi, and none of that crap now. Of course they insisted it wasn't from the remi, because every time I sat in that chair and they ran that poison into me they got five grand out of my insurance! But if my insurance would have ran out or denied it, oh well then, I probably wouldn't have needed it afterall, try something else. And do you truly think any doctor, which they are all out to make a profit, gives a crap about saving any tax money?
MD's kill people every single day. Slews of people die from prescription meds, not overdoses, just taking their meds as prescribed.
I am currently on a prescription med and see an integrative MD. But I'm also taking a probiotic, omega 3 to help with inflammation, and now trying an herbal intestinal soother. I would never put total faith into any MD ever again. They are not God but I have found that many of them truly believe they are and you must do what they say or else!

Miss

 

[D Bergy]

I agree that there needs to be more honest research done on alternative treatments. Particularly the cheap ones. Medicine is not much good if you cannot afford it.

The person I saw is a Chiropractor. Anyone can use these devices whether they are a doctor or not. I know of two Chiropractors that use different frequency devices. They have to use them as experimental devices. There also are MD's that use these, but not as many. It is a medical device in Germany. It is classified as a therapeutic device in the U.S. Not a medical device.

I guess you have proved my point. Why not use Tarot Cards instead? Why spend $20,000 on a machine when you can buy the most expensive Tarot Cards for say $1,000

I have seen a couple of dishonest trials on homeopathy. I have not looked into it much lately because I have been busy. In one trial they take a homeopathic mixture which is normally diluted to the point of that there is none of the original substance in it. This is how it is done as far as I know. Then they tested the substance under some chemical analysis and stated that it contained nothing but the base it was mixed in and declared it worthless.

To the average person this looks like an open and shut case. The problem is that homeopathy purposely dilutes the original substance into non-existence. That likely is not known by most people. The test proved nothing but what is already known.

What counts is does it improve symptoms in an actual illness or resolve the illness? Isn't that what the user is after?

They are trying to disprove a treatment that uses tests designed for a pharmaceutical product. The method of action is not the same and does not have the same requirements.

I really do not know if Homeopathy works but neither do I trust studies which have such obvious, and intentional flaws. I also do not trust no studies at all. It does not mean much to me if someone believes in a treatment or not. It is not a religion.
It either can work or it can't. It may work for this condition and not another.

I do not believe anything works until I actually have some kind of reasonable proof that it does or does not. That includes conventional medicine. What I know for sure is that the treatment I use on my wife for her disease is considered quack medicine and yet it obviously works. It is listed on the quackwatch list of fraudulent treatments along with homeopathy and dozens of others.

I used our Rife device on myself first. I always use any alternative first on myself.
I ran the exact same Lyme frequencies on myself and it did absolutely nothing to me. When I ran them on her, within the hour she developed mouth blisters. She hurt in every joint in her body. I actually documented the earlier treatments so I would not have to trust my poor memory. More importantly her general health improved a little with each treatment. I have never heard of a four year placebo effect. When she does not use it she declines. I do not need a study to prove what I can demonstrate and repeat over and over again. Does it work on everything? Absolutely not. I have had many failures with it also. But when it works it is astounding how well it works.

I do not treat any people outside my family, so I really have no reason to lie about it. I do not sell these devices so there is nothing in it for me. I do think people should know that alternative treatments in general are not the equivalent of ineffective or fraudulent treatments. Some are likely fraudulent and some are just not popular. Some have an active force trying to keep you from using them. Some only address minor ailments.

that is the reason I am exploring homeopathy. I was suckered into believing that anything outside of conventional medicine was bogus for 44 years of my life. I was taught by life to trust nothing as far as medicine is concerned. It is a corrupt business and it has been since the beginning.

I do not get flu shots because there is no evidence I can find that they work. These studies are based on actual mortality rates from the flu. It has remained unchanged despite record vaccinations. If just as many people die of the flu as before vaccinations were popular then what is the shot doing? Most people get flu shots because someone tells them they should. They do not spend time to find out if they work. If this is based on real science, why does anyone get this shot, much less have your doctor recommend one? Science does not support its use. Yet it has very real side effects in certain people. Find me evidence to the contrary. I have not been able to find it.

Fraud comes on both sides of the fence.

If you really want to know if something works, and you have a way of measuring its effectiveness, then you can find out by using it. If it does not work in our case, nothing is lost except some money. I am willing to spend some money to find out the truth. There is no danger since we would be doing nothing different as far as treatment is concerned.

There is really no point in debating "how many teeth are in the horses mouth".
I am going to actually look into the horses mouth and count them.

Dan

 

[danman]

Miss,
I know the U.S. situation is different to here in Ireland where we have a national health scheme. When I mentioned my taxes, I was relating to our health system.

Our hospitals, and therefore our Gastro consultants, are working to a yearly budget. They cannot over run this budget. So when I say that the consultant prescribes me Infliximab or Humira, That comes out of their budget. I simply pay a nominal monthly charge of EURO 85.00 and the rest of my prescription of approx. EURO 4,000.00 is charged to the national health scheme.

So when I said that if there was a cheaper way of treating my symptoms, the national health, hospital and my GI would explore it. My meds cost a lot of money to them and this money could be used treating other patients.

It's not a case here of hospitals and doctors trying to make money and profits, it's the opposite, they try and save money and cut costs whenever and by whatever means they can.

And yet after considering this, they still had me on Infilximab for 1 and 1/2 years and on Humira for 3 years. Both of these were combined with 6-MP for the last 10 years. When I started with 6-MP, it cost approx EURO 500.00 per month, but the cost for 6-MP has come down now quite considerably.

Like I said, the Irish system is very similar to the British health system, so therefore totally different to the U.S. system of healthcare.

Dan,
As I said above, each to their own. But In my 20 years with this illness I've come across many consultants who didn't really care about their patients and I can understand how someone can become disillusioned with conventional medicine. But when I came across these doctors, I simply moved on to a different one.

I was very lucky to stumble across my present consultant, (I was admitted to the closest hospital for surgery and he worked there) who has been treating me now for the past 10 years.

The majority of them are trying to help. I'm sure there are ones who simply think of their bank balances, but generally they want you well.

If you find alternative medicine is helping, sure, go for it. But don't give up on conventional medicine either.

 

[Miss]

"As I said above, each to their own. But In my 20 years with this illness I've come across many consultants who didn't really care about their patients and I can understand how someone can become disillusioned with conventional medicine. But when I came across these doctors, I simply moved on to a different one."

This is why I come across as bitter, lol. I had this experience. The first gastro I saw thought he was God. He actually yelled at me and told me I couldn't take anything that wasn't medically proven to treat my problem other than what he told me to take. Then the jerk turned around and gave me a packet of paperwork which included info on supplements that I had just told him I was taking and he yelled about. This packet of info included probiotics, fish oil, iron, vit D, calcium, and L-glutamate. Anyway, long story short, got way worse from the asacol, he told me over and over that doesn't make you worse, which is crap since there's a lot of people on several boards that can't take it.
I called twenty times in a month telling them I was going twenty to thirty times a day, mostly blood. Went to ER on my own and ended up there for twelve days. Then this guy's associate from the same office sat in the hospital explaining remi and acutally said " trust us we know what we're doing" HELLO, THEN WHY AM I HERE????? If they knew what they were doing I wouldn't have gotten so sick! Total A** When that guy left the room my dh was in disbelief that I didn't rip him a new one. I had to be on TPN for four days, was so malnourished.
I am a stay at home, homeschooling mom of three. I cannot be layed up like this, my job is too important to our children's wellbeing! Up until that point, I really didn't see myself as so significant, but I am and I will not allow a doctor or anyone else to treat me like that again. Just because he has a fancy title does not make them right or more important. My title is MOM.


Miss

 

[D Bergy]

I never give up on any medical treatment that may be useful for a particular circumstance. I use both conventional and alternative treatments. The conventional doctors know what is available in their realm and alternative providers know what they may have to offer.

I recently took a course of doxycycline because I was bit twice by Deer ticks. I also used Chlorine Dioxide to make sure I killed any potential infection. Best of both worlds.

I just do not take information from one source as gospel. No one knows everything about what may help a given condition. Myself included.

I do not have a preference based on modality. I use whatever is useful. I am not an advocate for either one. My interest is finding what I can use that works from either side of the fence.

What gets me started in an investigation of a treatment is information from actual users of a treatment. Since I have heard of several people improving from Lyme disease using homeopathy, it points me to something that might be useful.
It does not mean it will work. I do not know how they are measuring improvement or other variables. They could be mistaken in their conclusion. But it does give me someplace to start.

I really do not have too many options availble for my wife that are not full of serious side effects with very slim chances of actually curing the disease. If I had better options I would use them.

I hope it works but I do not let that cloud the fact that it very well may not work.

I actually expect it not to cure her, since that is a remote possibility anyway. It is worth trying to know for sure.

Dan

 

[Mazen]

I once went to a homeopath who uses a machine that send signals through certain points of you body and gives you info on what you can eat and cannot, and if you have some parts of you body not functioning properly.

He told me I cannot eat wheat, Cow and Goat dairy (only sheep dairy!!), cow meat, chicken (which was very strange as this is the only thing I can tolerate when in flare!!!), citrus fruits, tomatoes....

He also told me my liver was weak

Well I think that was not a good experience. But I agree with Dan. We should use both natural and conventional medicine, read as much as we can and don't accept immediately anything the doctors tell us. If I had listened to them , I would either have had my ileum taken out, or put on Remi. But I didn't listen to them and used antibiotics and SCD to help me through. So, keep an open mind, and try to make balanced decisions based on what your body tells you...

 

[Mazen]

Oh, I alsoonce went to a herbalist that wanted to do colonic irregation!!!! Imagine having that in your inflamed guts .... Ouch. Obviously I told him he was crazy and just left the office . I then saw him later having TV commercials for his clinic and claiming to cure all diseases. Now this is a real quack

 

[D Bergy]

It is a minefield out there. Especially when you are dealing with poorly understood diseases. Seems like most of them are.

Add in people who think they know something about a disease, but don't. Throw in quacks who know they are scamming you. The doctor who only knows one way to treat a disease whether it works or not.

It truly is amazing anyone can get well for any amount of time with so many ways to fail. Sometimes I think it would be easier just to throw darts to select a treatment.

Dan