Forks over knives

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Kev

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Watched a documentary today (yeah, that's how exciting my Labour Day 2 day weekend was) called 'Forks Over Knives'. I went into it pretty sceptical. Have to admit... and no pun intended... they really presented food for thought. And perhaps discussion. They also have a website, appropriately called 'forksoverknives.com'. Regretably, they don't offer their documentary as either viewable online or available for download. There are seqgments of the film.. and one has to keep in mind that it is biased in favour of their stance on proper diet. That aside... their studies are pretty impressive, the numbers, the length, the statistics... then the follow up with physicians who have applied these principles on hundreds of patients for over 25 years. Now, my knowledge of this is pretty cursory. I watched the documentary, looked at their website. However, what I saw made me think that perhaps brainier minds than my poor, humble grey (or is it gray?) matter might want to take a deeper look. Develop a deeper understanding, perhaps appreication. Thing is there have been a lot of posts lately asking about diet and Crohns Disease.

I have never been an advocate of diet 'curing' it... but maybe I was "WRONG"!

Testimonials from several patients attested to successfully treating heart diisease, cancer, high blood pressure, diabetes... well, an extensive list..only via this diet. And, in particular, how to stop... AND reverse... inflammation.

Anyone else heard of this? Anyone looked into it further? Anyone trying this, or thinking about it? Thing is... one doesn't need a doctors prescription to diet
 
YES KEV! I follow those docs very closely and switched my whole family over to a vegan diet after we all viewed it for Mother's Day. That was all I wanted for Mother's Day...for us to all sit and watch the documentary together...now who is pathetic?

My daughter is the Crohnie and while we couldn't maintain as strict a diet as they advise (very very minimal fat and cheese were our issues) we are all now vegetarian (with a few vegan days a week). My family will also have a cheat day here or there and definitely feels the difference when they do.

IBD is one of the diseases these docs do not claim to cure with diet. I have written back and forth with them a bit on the topic. However, they do feel that the diet supports overall health and will combat many of the icky side effects and risks of the meds she is on.

Her doc doesn't feel there is any scientific proof that diet helps Crohns (in a cure way not an easing of symptoms way) but also admits that he is shocked at how great she is doing and said whatever we are feeding her to just keep doing it and pray that the medical community catches on.

My husband has had good progress with his diabetes and my older daughter has lost weight and her horrible acne is coming under control.

All this without going whole hog on the Forks diet. These docs also have many books out that are interesting reads. All available in the libraries...FOK is also available on Netflix streaming and is in many libraries.
 
Oh and btw when we say Forks Over Knives Diet...it is not another gimmick diet plan with lots of other stuff to sell you. It is simply vegan eating with minimal fats.
 
Oh, I agree with you that this is no gimmick. And, it isn't a case of publish a book/diet as a get rich, get famous scenario like one so often sees. This looks extremely genuine.
And, although 'they' don't claim it will cure Crohns, I wouldn't be surprised if people had good results with this... either directly or indirectly related to Crohns and overall health.
 
can be watched for free (illegally?) here
http://documentaryaddict.com/Forks+Over+Knives-9636-documentary.html

The Diet Defined
The experts in Forks Over Knives advocate a whole-food, plant-based diet. The program is based on whole or minimally processed plants, primarily fruits, vegetables, whole grains, tubers, and legumes. It excludes or minimizes animal-based foods such as meat (including poultry and fish), dairy, and eggs, as well as refined foods like bleached flour, refined sugar, and oil.

http://www.forksoverknives.com/the-fok-diet/

While it stresses minimising or eliminating meat and animal products I think it's real benefits lie in eliminating processed foods and refined foods.
In many ways (except the whole grain bit) it is like paleo without the meat

It's a good film but a bit loose with the facts, this review covers it pretty well (from a meat is good point of view)
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/
"I believe the “plant-based diet doctors” got a lot of things right, and a diet of whole, unprocessed plant foods (i.e., Real Food) can bring tremendous health improvements for people who were formerly eating a low-nutrient, high-crap diet. Especially short term. But I also believe this type of diet achieves some of its success by accident, and that the perks of eliminating processed junk are inaccurately attributed to eliminating all animal foods. So the goal of this critique is to shed light on the areas where the “plant-based science” is a little, um, wilted."

It's largely based on the work of T Colin Campbell and his book "The China Study: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted And the Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss, And Long-term Health", which is a work of fiction claiming to be based on his brick of a study, also called "the china study" but that's a whole 'nother debate
 
Oh, I agree with you that this is no gimmick. And, it isn't a case of publish a book/diet as a get rich, get famous scenario like one so often sees. This looks extremely genuine.
And, although 'they' don't claim it will cure Crohns, I wouldn't be surprised if people had good results with this... either directly or indirectly related to Crohns and overall health.

I guess I have a different definition of gimmicks. They're selling dvds and books (and various other products) - that alone is enough to make me sceptical. Plus it claims to treat an awful lot of conditions - which is a great way of ensuring they can sell to as many people as possible (I did say I'm sceptical ;) ).
 
Oh yeah fer sure on the no processed food. Should have clarified that as there are plenty of vegans out there still eating processed crap...and that won't help anything.

Yeah, they have DVD's etc to sell but they are all easily accessed through public libraries etc...I meant no add on supplements, recipe books that you can only get from them, magazine subscriptions etc...but they do have a Farm to Fork weekend that you can go to for an astronomical amount of money;)
 
I,m not a believer in arty fatty diets but I know myself that eating processed junk meals is a factor in lighting the blue touch paper for me,so I,m prone to making meals from scratch hopefully with healthier ingredients than freezer meals and if nothing else it's fun to discover I,ve made something edible from scratch.cheers
 
Yeah... instead of being my long winded self, I spoke briefly and in generalizations, which left out the details. The stuff they're offering is more akin to educational material. I personally believe it has more to do with dissemination of information, rather than the endless list of 'Utopian' diet books where the idea is to sell the concept, then reap huge profits... and perhaps fame.. in the process.

Now, the conclusions presented were based on the China study. If there is a problem with that study... then there goes the keystone. However, given the motivation behind the creation of the study, and the... potential... repercussions... of screwing it up... my gut tells me that the basic research, and the numbers, stats, resulting from it, are likely genuine. And, on looking at that Chinese and American researchers did not start out with a 'fixed' goal, or joint objective in mind. The collaberation came after, and then from the processing of all of that data... came the conclusions. Medical science is not my field. However, I do have extensive training and experience in statistical analysis. I was impressed by the sheer volume of testing, sampling the Chinese did, over years of research and follow-up. And, the graph of 'Western' diet, and incidence of coronary artery disease, heart attack, diabetes... well, the similarities in those overlays were too many to be labeled coincidence. One, a couple.. sure. But each and every one exactly corresponding. Not a chance! (OK, the use of the word exactly is a generalization).

The thing is... nowhere did anyone associated with FOK claim it would assist with Crohns.
A lot of other diseases... high blood pressure, coronary artery disease, diabetes to name the stand outs. And the fact that Western doctors have taken this theory, applied it to patients over a span of time exceeding 20 years... and the patients show improvement.. welllll.. that does give one pause for thought. Not that this diet will make IBD go away. But... next time a debate ensues over whether diet is important in treating IBD, I 'think' that you have to look at the body as a continual work in progress, and treat any chronic disease in a 'whole' body approach. Just that... in watching the programs condemnation of iterations of the standard North American 'Healthy Food Guide'.. then maybe what we've been brought up believing to be the healthiest food choices are actually not so healthy. I was placed on a high protein diet... everyone knows more protein is better, right? Maybe not. There have been too many instances where the 'experts' reversed themselves... and, in the meantime... we suffer the consequences of these "experts".
Years ago... I had a bout of kidney stones.. not fun. The 'experts' advised me to cut out calcium. Skip ahead a generation.. one of my sons followed in dear old dads footsteps. He had stones too. Now, those very same 'experts' are saying he should increase how much calcium is in his diet. ????? And that is just one personal example.

I think, as a group, we've all witnessed first hand the terrible impact a 'mistaken' expert can have on our lives, on our health. We've all developed a jaundiced view of medical expertise. And rightly so. If any potential audience could look at this material with open eyes... an open mind... I think it is this group. And, if this info is being kept hidden as is other things... like LDN.. then, since as a group we have a vested interest in things health related... maybe this deserves a look see.. just in case it can help some of us.
 
While it stresses minimising or eliminating meat and animal products I think it's real benefits lie in eliminating processed foods and refined foods./QUOTE]

I think you are right. I watched another historical documentary (unrelated to diet or disease) that explained how Humans' (or homosapiens' predescessors?) brains grew astronomically once fire was discovered due to the fact that they were able to eat so much more meat.
 
Glad to see others as interested in nutrition, diet and chronic illness as I am.

They do not just point to the China study but to docs who have used this method of eating to improve patients outcomes who were pretty much given up on by other docs. Their experience and background is fascinating.

I have corresponded with one of the docs about the diet and Crohns. Putting it simply he explains that while many people are predisposed to heart disease, cancer, diabetes etc it is his opinion (and many others) that the American diet speeds everything along and that by eating a vegan minimal fat diet you can avoid and in many cases reverse these diseases. The problem with IBD is that in his opinion it is not caused or worsened by diet by rather a malfunctioning immune system which can not be reversed by diet alone. However, he and the others do feel that by feeding our bodies the absolute best and most varied all natural diet that we can, the better our bodies will be able to heal themselves.

I can only tell you that since switching my Crohnie over to this diet everything in her life has improved dramatically. Her weight, growth, sports performance, emotional health and above all her Crohns health. Her doc is thrilled with how well she is doing and she is eating all the things that are no no's for a lot of people...lots and lots of fiber, seeds, raw veggies etc.

Some friends tell me that we are going to extremes. Well if eating differently is extreme than so be it. It isn't any more extreme than the drugs we pour into our bodies (talking general population here not IBD) or the surgeries we endure to avoid disease (again general population).
 
So, can anyone tell me... how many dolphins does it take to start a fire? OK, kidding... Perhaps fire played an important role in the development of the human brain... but that does not equate to too much animal protein as being good for the human body overall. Or a high fat diet. Or a diet rich in milk or dairy products. Or refined sugars and carbs.

When you see obesity in children, coronary artery disease commencing in young adults, a dramatic increase in erectile dysfunction in men under 40, then something is wrong with Western diets per se. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but maybe, just maybe... what we've been lead to believe is wisdom is nothing less than Western folly.
 
I just feel like it is the processed foods. All breads we buy, almost all products in supermarkets have unnatural additives. Hormones, antibiotics, steroids, chemicals, etc. ..

I find it hard to believe that if we ate a natural, omnivorous diet that we'd see all these issues. But Alas I, too, remain part of the problem. As a f/t working mom, i dont have time (or money) to eat more naturally. I do what i can.
 
I just feel like it is the processed foods. All breads we buy, almost all products in supermarkets have unnatural additives. Hormones, antibiotics, steroids, chemicals, etc. ..

I find it hard to believe that if we ate a natural, omnivorous diet that we'd see all these issues. But Alas I, too, remain part of the problem. As a f/t working mom, i dont have time (or money) to eat more naturally. I do what i can.

But that's the thing: when people ate a more "natural" diet, they got sicker and died sooner.
 
Hey, been there, done that.. Raising a couple of kids and holding down a full time job, and doing it solo. WOW! Looking back, I wonder how in the world I managed. And I'd devout time and effort to cooking healthy... but, there were lots of Friday nites at the end of a long work week when I'd stop and pickup pizza (and my sons only complaint was there was never enough... ever try keeping ahead of the appetities of teenagers?). And, other times when.. for one reason or another.. a meal would consist of macaroni & cheese (from a familiar box) with fried hot dogs or bologna as the protein portion. So, I know that, no matter how hard one tries... you can't expect perfection. I never made it.

And, I didn't post this to lay guilt trips on parents (or any care-giver) over food or diet. I don't think you have to become a purer than pure convert to this... it isn't a religion.
I personally am wary of anything that smacks of an 'all or nothing' approach to anything.
Like... if one needs a little more exercise.. you don't sign up for the Iron Man Triathlon. Or, need to lose a few pounds... you don't go on a hunger strike. Know what I'm saying?

I'm not really recommending or advising it. I simply don't know enough about it to form a strong opinion. Just.. food for thought... and I was surprised (pleasantly) to hear from someone who is trying it... and having success. Nothing speaks louder than good results.... first hand good results. And, here's the thing... good results that others can repeat (if anyone else was willing to play guinea pig.. or desperate for alternatives). The thing is... it might have absolutely no impact on someones Crohns, simply make him/her the healthiest person ever to have Crohns. But it is an experiment anyone could try...
 
Mish: we all feel guilty. I am a stay at home mom and I still fed my kids the crap! Easier that way. It is fast, cheap and we know they will eat it. Coupons galore and sales galore on all the processed stuff.

If you want to try it, ease into it. One meal a week or one day a week. Once you get started you would be surprised at how easy and cheap it really is. For example, I got tied down all day sorting through my daughter's medical bills, fighting with insurance and calling the hospital billing department etc. No time to go out and shop so tonight's dinner is rice and beans. We have left over salsa and a tomato so that will get thrown in to. A little lettuce for a salad and voila dinner! Since dropping meat I especially like the fact that I don't have to constantly disinfect every utensil, cutting board, my hands etc throughout prep time in the kitchen.

I did go overboard strict and the family fought back. That is why we added back in eggs and cheese. Also, they eat meat when out with friends and the mood strikes them but overall they prefer the vegetarian lifestyle.
 
Would I be right and saying a balanced healthy diet is best and we all basically know what that is,the £1 bag of 20 frozen sausage,hamburgers isn,t it.i know as we'll that people on here have a far harder time than me with crohns and veggies and a big variety of food isn't,t possible.its a common theme in westernised nations that a lot of our diet is over processed junk,has anyone seen the ch4 programme about the food industry it's very interesting some is amazingly good and surprisingly natural.theres on thing certain though I,m never having low fat or diet mayo again comes under the heading yeeuch!the basic mixture is called sludge in the factory and yes it does look like sludge
 
I agree Aelfl3333, this area often gets split into the meat vs. vegetarian argument but i think the food vs. 'food like product' split is more relevant when it comes to health outcomes
 
I'm concentrating on balanced meals since I have a toddler & preschooler with picky appetites. My life is trying to figure out ways to get more fruit and VEGETABLES into them every day. :)
 
Ha! BTDT! FWIW I saw a doc who was a guru at changing kids eating habits. He gave me tons of pointers, I was skeptical but I'll be darned they worked. I had my 5 year old eating broccoli within two weeks...no cheese sauce or butter or anything. I was amazed. If you are interested pm me and I will let you know his secrets...well they aren't secrets just ways to go about it.
 
Also, have you heard of the book Deceptively Delicious? It is written by Jerry Seinfeld's wife. It is a good resource for moms of young ones. I made her Black Bean Brownies and they were a huge hit! You just have to keep the recipes a secret!
 
FOK is fantastic! There's actually a few more like it that are (or were recently at least) available on Netflix: Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead, Food Matters, Hungry for Change. They're not going to align with everyone's views and opinions, but if you ask me they're all worth a watch.
 
please explain

In contemporary societies life expectancy and quality of health have been increasing. There are various reasons for this: sanitation, medicine, etc. have played major roles, but nutrition has been a big part of it. It’s often mentioned by the media that the upcoming generation will be the first to live shorter lives than their parents, and that diet is a major factor in this. However, that means that the current and most recent generations have been the healthiest – healthier than those who lived prior to the development of so much processed food - even though they’ve had the most “unnatural” diets to date. This seems to me to suggest that it is not processed foods themselves that are the problem; it’s when diet is taken to extremes, such as when so much food is consumed by an individual that he becomes morbidly obese, for example. The abundance of easily available food which contemporary societies now have is largely responsible for this, and I expect the development of all sorts of unnatural production and storage methods have made food so accessible. (Though a person could also become morbidly obese by eating natural nuts, which are high in calories, and suffer similar health problems.) But plenty of people are managing to live on a diet which includes unnatural foods without becoming obese and without developing any nutritional deficiencies or any other diet-induced problems. Ultimately, a moderate diet which includes processed food has led to far healthier populations than those that existed in the times prior to food processing.

Of course it also depends how you define “natural”. Does your diet include foods that have been transported from other geographical locations, produced with modern farming methods, or even just cooked? You could consider the resulting food to be in an “unnatural” state. If you tried existing off raw meat and wild fruits, I’m guessing you wouldn’t feel too great.
 
I have grave concerns for the next generation, and the one after, etc., etc.. But, I am not convinced that my generation, or my parents generation... were naturally healthier than their parents, grandparents, etc. Why? Well, if you factor in the advances in the fields of medicine... both drug and technology.. you would think that health issues would be in sharp decline. But, if you look at the increased incidence of auto immune diseases in the past generation.. the increases in coronary artery disease, heart attack, stroke, cancer... Remember when no one had heard of fibromyalgia.. or progeria, or even IBD?
Sure, research has increased the success rate, the effectiveness of treatment for many former 'killer' diseases... but the incidence of disease seems to be constantly on the rise. A generation ago... if you mentioned 'flesh eating disease', most would think you're talking about the plot for a Grade B movie... not an actual, real life, real live disease. If my generation, or the generation before.. was healthier than our ancestors, with all of the advances in medical knowledge... disease should be on the decrease, not just death. I don't think the premise is sound. It is just a case where the science can keep us alive longer. It doesn't mean we are necessarily any healthier overall otherwise.
 
In contemporary societies life expectancy and quality of health have been increasing. There are various reasons for this: sanitation, medicine, etc. have played major roles, but nutrition has been a big part of it.
I'm sure the availability of food played a big part in lifespan, but not the quality. I'm not sure if nutrition plays much of a role at all (until the 70's when food started turning to ****)
Wikipedia's life expectancy page claims that average life expectancy was virtually the same from paleolithic times until the beginning of the twentieth century (actually two years less), which indicates that medicine, sanitation, and effective distribution played the major part, and of that mainly by reducing infant mortality (and hence raising he average),along with curing disease and keeping sick people alive longer.
In fact caloric restriction (fasting -involuntary or not) seems to be the simplest and most effective way of increasing lifespan

However, that means that the current and most recent generations have been the healthiest – healthier than those who lived prior to the development of so much processed food - even though they’ve had the most “unnatural” diets to date. This seems to me to suggest that it is not processed foods themselves that are the problem...
I interpret this differently, the most healthy long lived generation was the one who grew up with the sanitation, health care and food distribution BUT before or during the advent of modern highly processed packaged foods.
Trans fats, vegetable oils, HFCS, chemical additives and highly processed carbs all started in that generation, and is reflected in the skyrocketing of modern disease .
The most unhealthy generation is the one growing up fully immersed in "the most unnatural diet to date".

it’s when diet is taken to extremes, such as when so much food is consumed by an individual that he becomes morbidly obese, for example. The abundance of easily available food which contemporary societies now have is largely responsible for this, and I expect the development of all sorts of unnatural production and storage methods have made food so accessible. (Though a person could also become morbidly obese by eating natural nuts, which are high in calories, and suffer similar health problems.)

There is a lot of research, but most of it is directed towards maintaining the status quo and making money from it.
When the data is analysed objectively the commonly held view (commonly held because it has been repeated so many times -must be true if everyone says it) that calories in vs calories out and laziness causes obesity falls apart.
The body handles different calories differently.
To vastly oversimplify....
-Carbs cause insulin release which causes fat storage and retention
-Fat doesn't (there are problems with some fats , some cause inflammation and affect cholesterol negatively)
I agree that “The abundance of easily available food“ is the problem but these foods are corn,wheat,soy and sugar,- processed foods, with a side of trans fats to make it sit on the shelf longer.

I challenge you to find anyone made obese by nuts (there may be other health issues, too much omega-6 is inflammatory), but it just doesn't happen.

But plenty of people are managing to live on a diet which includes unnatural foods without becoming obese and without developing any nutritional deficiencies or any other diet-induced problems.
seriously?
-Coronary heart disease (CHD) only took off in the early 20th century (independent of life expectancy), which coincided with an increase in smoking, refined sugar, refined seed oils and trans fats
-Cancer death rates in Australia have increased from 7% male, 8% female in 1909 to 31% male, 26% female in 2002 (higher life expectancy would have contributed).
-The obesity epidemic is fairly recent, although there were still a lot of overweight people in the US during the 1960’s. Likewise childhood obesity was almost non-existent in the 1930s
-In the UK, “the prevalence of diagnosed allergic rhinitis and eczema in children have both trebled over the last three decades” and “since 1990, admissions for anaphylaxis have increased by 700%, for food allergy by 500”

-Autisim changing from 1:10000 to 1:66 in 40 years



Ultimately, a moderate diet which includes processed food has led to far healthier populations than those that existed in the times prior to food processing.
only in a tiny part due to food, mainly other factors (as discussed), and then health starting to fall, probably from 1970 onwards due industrialisation of food production

Of course it also depends how you define “natural”. Does your diet include foods that have been transported from other geographical locations, produced with modern farming methods, or even just cooked? You could consider the resulting food to be in an “unnatural” state. If you tried existing off raw meat and wild fruits, I’m guessing you wouldn’t feel too great.
Cooking dates back about 2.5 million years and is probably the single most significant event in out evolution as **** sapiens, it is not a modern thing, but having said that, crudos, steak tartare, sushi, oysters, anyone?
 
I have grave concerns for the next generation, and the one after, etc., etc.. But, I am not convinced that my generation, or my parents generation... were naturally healthier than their parents, grandparents, etc. Why? Well, if you factor in the advances in the fields of medicine... both drug and technology.. you would think that health issues would be in sharp decline. But, if you look at the increased incidence of auto immune diseases in the past generation.. the increases in coronary artery disease, heart attack, stroke, cancer... Remember when no one had heard of fibromyalgia.. or progeria, or even IBD?
Sure, research has increased the success rate, the effectiveness of treatment for many former 'killer' diseases... but the incidence of disease seems to be constantly on the rise. A generation ago... if you mentioned 'flesh eating disease', most would think you're talking about the plot for a Grade B movie... not an actual, real life, real live disease. If my generation, or the generation before.. was healthier than our ancestors, with all of the advances in medical knowledge... disease should be on the decrease, not just death. I don't think the premise is sound. It is just a case where the science can keep us alive longer. It doesn't mean we are necessarily any healthier overall otherwise.

You have to take into account, though, that the number of diseases on record is dependent on the number of official diagnoses: number can be higher because illnesses simply weren't diagnosed (maybe hadn't even been defined as a separate disease) previously. (I think your example of fibromyalgia would fit here.) Also the number of chronic illnesses are rising partly because people are healthier and living longer. People can now live decades longer than they used to, acquiring more diseases (but not fatal ones) along the way; also diseases that used to kill can now in some cases be managed, resulting in a population living with more illnesses, where previously you'd simply have had more deaths at an earlier age. For example, (to take another of your examples) where before a stroke may have simply killed someone, now modern medicine may save them, but then of course they add one more to the number of people living with the after-effects of a stroke. Isn't that healthier than being dead though?
 
The most unhealthy generation is the one growing up fully immersed in "the most unnatural diet to date".

You think the current generation is the least healthy? Unhealthier than any previous generations?

seriously?
-Coronary heart disease (CHD) only took off in the early 20th century (independent of life expectancy), which coincided with an increase in smoking, refined sugar, refined seed oils and trans fats
-Cancer death rates in Australia have increased from 7% male, 8% female in 1909 to 31% male, 26% female in 2002 (higher life expectancy would have contributed).
-The obesity epidemic is fairly recent, although there were still a lot of overweight people in the US during the 1960’s. Likewise childhood obesity was almost non-existent in the 1930s
-In the UK, “the prevalence of diagnosed allergic rhinitis and eczema in children have both trebled over the last three decades” and “since 1990, admissions for anaphylaxis have increased by 700%, for food allergy by 500”
-Autisim changing from 1:10000 to 1:66 in 40 years

I said that plenty of people manage not to develop any diet related diseases - which is true.

With some of the examples you've given here, the point I made in my above post to Kev apply: autism simply wasn't diagnosed previously. It's hard to tell how many more people develop autism now compared to at any given period in the past, when it's only recently that it has been defined as an illness, recorded in official statistics, and diagnostic categories have been expanded to incorporate more people into various autism categories. Also there's no definitive evidence that diet is a cause.

Cooking dates back about 2.5 million years and is probably the single most significant event in out evolution as **** sapiens, it is not a modern thing, but having said that, crudos, steak tartare, sushi, oysters, anyone?

The post I was responding to by mish2575 said that if we ate a "natural" diet we wouldn't have health issues - so, as I said, what this means really depends on the definition of "natural." By a lot of definitions, cooking would not be defined as a "natural" process, cooked food would not be considered to be in a "natural" state - no matter how long humans have been cooking food for. If you include cooked food within your concept of a healthy diet, then you're including an unnatural process into your concept of a healthy diet. It's just selecting certain unnatural processes to be included in a healthy diet and discarding others - which I'd agree with. Some instances of unnatural production and storage methods result in healthy food, others make them unhealthy, but saying that natural is necessarily healthier doesn't fit.
 
You think the current generation is the least healthy? Unhealthier than any previous generations?

Yes I do. I just have to look at the children to see that. My middle school daughter recently went on a trip and you had to see the med bag. Contained everything from type 2 diabetes to cholesterol lowering drugs. Our kids are sicker these days so yeah we may be living longer but we are living longer sicker.
 
I think this maybe the fully article that was quoted above.

In 1909, 24% of all death were in the 0-4 age group

In 1999, this group make up 1% deaths.

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]!OpenDocument

Thanks for the article. I guess this is why I'm confused by some of the comments in this thread. The article's only on Australia, but it makes it quite clear life expectancy increased significantly throughout the 20th century, improved nutrition being cited as one reason why.
 
This generation isn't expected to live as long as their parents did, though. They eat a lot of junk and sit around on the computer all day.

I've been vegan since 1999, and my children who have Crohn's were eating mostly vegan when they got the disease in 04' and 11'?
 
I think the introduction to that study sums it up perfectly.....

"During the 20th century, infectious diseases were replaced by degenerative diseases, such as heart disease and cancers, as the leading causes of deaths of Australians."

We have probably reached the point of inflection in the life span curve - certainly for the large part of the population who eat **** food because it is what they can afford and don't have adequate health care to be kept going while sick.
Those who are better off will be kept alive longer if they keep paying for the medication....

Sounds like a corporate wet dream - make money from the food and from the drugs needed after eating the food........

By a lot of definitions, cooking would not be defined as a "natural" process, cooked food would not be considered to be in a "natural" state - no matter how long humans have been cooking food for. If you include cooked food within your concept of a healthy diet, then you're including an unnatural process into your concept of a healthy diet. It's just selecting certain unnatural processes to be included in a healthy diet and discarding others - which I'd agree with. Some instances of unnatural production and storage methods result in healthy food, others make them unhealthy, but saying that natural is necessarily healthier doesn't fit.

I get your point, but if cooking was responsible for our evolutionary leap ( energy easily available for our brains, rather than all for digesting and foraging) then it can't be considered 'unnatural' as we wouldn't be what we are without it.
At some point a all carnivore's ancestors must have eaten meat for the first time, and then evolved to optimise the digestion of meat. Fire was part of our evolution.
But ultimately - natural or not isn't the issue, beneficial or not is.
You are exactly right "Some instances of unnatural production and storage methods result in healthy foods" - but my point is that some are very very harmful, and it's not just foods, its medicine and chemicals and food
Processed foods - are they beneficial or not?

Which comes back to my only comment about 'Forks over Knives"
-most if not all of the benefits of this diet (and there obviously are people who have benefited) comes from avoiding 'unnatural' foods, - sugar ,grain, veg oil etc, rather than avoiding meat

this is a nice (long) post on similarities in vegan and paleo diets - among other things, and touches on a few claims in 'forks over knives'

Raw Vegan, Blood Type O and the Paleo Diet – what do they have in common?
http://paleozonenutrition.com/2012/...d-the-paleo-diet-what-do-they-have-in-common/
"I recently watched ‘Forks over Knives’. Drs Esselstyn, T Colin Campbell, McDougall and others passionately tell us that animal products are really, really bad for us, in fact are the primary reason for the health woes of western nations. They cite example after example of people taking out animal products and switching to plant based diets, losing significant amounts of weight and experiencing massive health improvements. But as Denise Minger pointed out in her outstandingly well researched critique – multiple changes were made in the diets, yet the finger was always pointed at meat."
 
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My great grandmother almost made it to 103. Widowed over 40 years, she managed on the farm by herself. And, when I say farm... I mean no indoor plumbing (privy out back). The closest to indoor plumbing she came was when she had the hand pump area closed in... walls, roof, earth floor. Tiny little thing, tough as nails, full of the devil. My grandmother made it to 89... survived a friendly fire shelling of the field hospital that she worked in in WWI. My mother made it to 86.. Yeah, so this downward trend is probably an exception to the rule. And, yes, they have discovered diseases they never knew existed before... and have found ways to treat others... and to extend our life expectancy.. But, I've seen 3 generations... and the overall health of each succeeding one seems less than its predecessor.. their fitness levels seem less.. there seems (to my jaundiced eye) to be more health issues ... not new, rarely diagnosed ones, just the typical run of the mill variety. Just my observation, and my viewpoint may be biased, but (and there is no way.. I know of.. to prove this) but if you took a random sampling of your average person (at respective points in time/life) and performed a physical on them... the scores of successive generations would rank lower than generations before.
 
I am a vegetarian but do not vilify meat. I do however, vilify the way we eat meat in our society today. First the quality and production etc makes me VERY concerned about our food supply but that goes for many veggies and fruits also. Second the amount! Meat is supposed to be the side dish not the veggies. Years ago they only ate meat when their animals were large enough to slaughter and much of that time they didn't even slaughter them because they were a source of other things they needed...milk and eggs. Or if they didn't own an animal had to wait for a local farmer to have one available and for it to be transported etc and even then couldn't afford much of it. So yes they ate meat but much much less compared with today.

We did an experiment at my daughter's elementary school. Most kids got at most 2 servings of fruits or veggies a day. Many of those were potatoes. When they were offered yummy vegetables with school lunch most of it ended up in the garbage. Sad.

I can just say again that my carnivorous family switched over in May. We have never felt better. We took a vacation and decided to try some of the local fare much of which was chicken, fish and red meat. We came home and everyone was begging to go back to a vegetarian. Stomach complaints abounded. My chronie had much changed bathroom habits and stomach aches etc. Doc told us to go back strict vegetarian and see if that helps.

Being Italian though the last frontier for us is cheese...don't think that will ever go. It should be it's own food group. My 19 year old will look at a fully stocked fridge without a piece of cheese in it and declare "there is nothing to eat"....she needs a recovery program!
 
Hugh - thanks for the link. I don't have time to read it now, but I will have a look at it, and I'll try to keep an open mind when I do so. :)

Kev - your family sounds impressive! I think the things we witness first hand make a big impression on us even though logically I know it's only anecdotal evidence - no one in my family shies away from processed food and all still seem to keep living well into their eighties. There've been a couple of exceptions, but certainly no apparent downward decline, and I seem to be a total black sheep with being the only one with chronic health problems at a young age. My siblings ate just as much junk as I did (and we all still do) and they're fit and healthy as anything.
 
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