HIV/AIDS link to Crohn's

[A1Aussie]

Hi all,

I heard a doctor on the tv afew days age refer to immune diseases as the pre-curser to the eventual diagnosis of H.I.V.+ i have been diagnosed with Crohns and was told i most probably had it from a young age 10-13. Im now 44 and was quite blown away to have an immune disease (Crohns) even mentioned in the same sentance as HIV+ and that they could possibly be linked. Has any one heard of discussion in this manor. i have tried to sourse the programe thet had this thread on it but to no success. Any input or comment would be greatly apprieciated.

Cheers A1Aussie

 

[Rebecca85]

Well HiV is immunodeficiency, and autoimmune disease seem to be an over active immune system, so not sure how that works?

My guess is either a) he was a crackpot doctor pushing his own theories so that he could then push his own 'cure' or 'treatment' or b) he didn't mean autoimmune disease like Crohn's, he meant immune deficiency diseases ie those that aren't often seen except in immune compromised people- things like Kaposi's sarcoma.

 

[Rebecca85]

I did a bit of research and found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12848988/ It basically says that people infected with HIV may develop autoimmune disease in the fourth stage of infection (first stage is actual infection, second stage is where HIV lies dormant, third stage is immune deficiency, fourth stage is a resurgence of the immune system).

However, that does not mean that all patients with HIV will develop auto immune diseases. Nor does it mean that all people with auto immune disease will be HIV+.

By precursor to diagnosis, I am guessing that this is the first sign that something is not right, so patients seek help during which time investigations are done and it is discovered that they are HIV+

 

[Markanth]

Hi. Just found this forum and interested in the link with HIV and Crohn's.
Well i have both, interestingly i was told there was no link by a consultant,
What a foolish man, the proof has been in the pudding (or lack of it,for two years).
I suffered for a whole two years, before undergoing surgery to remove my jejeunum.
Simply the immune symptom suppression in my case,caused the twisting of my bowel.
Ignorance of the medical staff allowed a prolonged period of my diagnosis.
Just an after thought please be wary of prednisolone.
Thanks for reading

 

[Ihurt]

I do not think there is a link between AIDS and Crohns disease. I mean they really do not know what causes crohns even, it only a guess. I think the cause can be different in each person. Also their theory is that crohns is caused by an over-active immune system while AIDS is an attack on the immune system, it actually destroys the immune system. Two different things entirely.

 

[tots]

I have had Crohns as long as I can remember . I am 49- I don't believe one leads to the other at all . There are a lot of things people get and they don't know why . I just think
some people have it . I think it is over thought . I just want my Drs to take it as seriously
as my pain! I want to be taken seriously, I want to be pain free!


lauren

 

[kiny]

Well HiV is immunodeficiency, and autoimmune disease seem to be an over active immune system, so not sure how that works?

Crohn's disease shows inflammation, and lots of cytokine are involved during active disease, but the innate immune system in crohn's disease and the genetic susceptibility show immune deficiencies at particular loci, related to autophagy, macrophage deficiencies and there are lots of similarities between mycobacteria susceptibility.

Autoimmunity in crohn's disease is a nice theory but there is no evidence of this atm in any form. There are no known autoantigens, the "patchyness" of crohn's disease (skip lesions) contradict the autoimmune theory, genome studies contradict this, and antibiotics are able to induce remission. To this day there is no evidence of autoimmunity in crohn's disease, I think this point needs to be made somewhat more clear because I am under the impression that people think this is an accepted theory, it's not. It's a theory that is pretty much dead at this point. (A study showed they could create a continous T Cell response in rats even when the bacteria is removed, but there is no evidence this is happening crohn's disease at all)

In fact the first studies that showed immune deficiencies in crohn's disease used nothing other than Viagra to increase blood flow which increased bacterial clearance of non-pathogenic invaders which were artificially injected in people with crohn's disease to measure their immune status, which shows an underresponsive immune system.

If you can wrap your head around that, you can look at studies that show crohn's disease actually has an inflammation deficiency in the innate immune system. Lack of alpha defensin also.

There are also immune deficiencies in people with crohn's disease related to mutations in the VDR gene, the receptor for vitamin D.

There are a number of similarities between HIV and Crohn's disease. One that they both involve immune deficiencies, the second is that they are both in some way related to mycobacteria.

M. Avium Complex infections are common in people with HIV (although this is going down thanks to HIV treatment), MAC is part of the mycobacteria genus. Crohn's disease shows susceptibility to this genus, it actually shows a lot of similarities to M Leprae susceptibility shown in the Nature study published last month.

That one is a precursor for the other is something I don't think is rooted in evidence though. Never heard of an increase in crohn in HIV patients.

 

[Ihurt]

I agree with you Kiny. I do not think "they" know what cuases crohns disease.
They call everything "they" dont know an autoimmune disease from what I am learning.

But yeah, for HIV, you can only get it through being infected with it thorugh blood, period. There is no other way you are going to get HIV/AIDS. Now with crohns, who knows how one gets it. It could be just the food we are eating. Everything is genetically modified and we all know this is toxic to the body. I also think some are just more suseptible for whatever reason, maybe we are weak in that area, who knows. Some people resopnd to antibitoic therapy which says it may have something to do with a bacteria that is causing crohns, but again there are some out there who have the same exact bacteria and they do not het crohns. I think you have to have a weakness to begin with in that area.

Crohn's disease shows inflammation, and lots of cytokine are involved during active disease, but the innate immune system in crohn's disease and the genetic susceptibility show immune deficiencies at particular loci, related to autophagy, macrophage deficiencies and there are lots of similarities between mycobacteria susceptibility.

Autoimmunity in crohn's disease is a nice theory but there is no evidence of this atm in any form. There are no known autoantigens, the "patchyness" of crohn's disease (skip lesions) contradict the autoimmune theory, genome studies contradict this, and antibiotics are able to induce remission. To this day there is no evidence of autoimmunity in crohn's disease, I think this point needs to be made somewhat more clear because I am under the impression that people think this is an accepted theory, it's not. It's a theory that is pretty much dead at this point. (A study showed they could create a continous T Cell response in rats even when the bacteria is removed, but there is no evidence this is happening crohn's disease at all)

In fact the first studies that showed immune deficiencies in crohn's disease used nothing other than Viagra to increase blood flow which increased bacterial clearance of non-pathogenic invaders which were artificially injected in people with crohn's disease to measure their immune status, which shows an underresponsive immune system.

If you can wrap your head around that, you can look at studies that show crohn's disease actually has an inflammation deficiency in the innate immune system. Lack of alpha defensin also.

There are also immune deficiencies in people with crohn's disease related to mutations in the VDR gene, the receptor for vitamin D.

There are a number of similarities between HIV and Crohn's disease. One that they both involve immune deficiencies, the second is that they are both in some way related to mycobacteria.

M. Avium Complex infections are common in people with HIV (although this is going down thanks to HIV treatment), MAC is part of the mycobacteria genus. Crohn's disease shows susceptibility to this genus, it actually shows a lot of similarities to M Leprae susceptibility shown in the Nature study published last month.

That one is a precursor for the other is something I don't think is rooted in evidence though. Never heard of an increase in crohn in HIV patients.

 

[Queastor]

crap necroed old thread.

 

[nogutsnoglory]

For those of you who have HIV/AIDS and crohns do you take immunosuppressants? Are you even able.

These 2 diseases seem like an awful combo. Crohn's is an overactive AI disease and HIV/AIDS is an underactive immune system.

I'm wondering what drugs could work since most either increase or suppress. New drugs like the one by QU biologics linked in my signature may be the answer because that involves immunomodulation. I have no clue just hypothesizing.

 

[SupportiveMom]

I would think Lupus is more related to IBD then HIV is, knowing HIV is from blood & that is mostly the way you can get it (if not the only way). I agree with the above comments - very strange comment from a doctor.

Having HIV with Crohn's would set up its own unique set of problems. I do hope there aren't many out there having to deal with it & the medications for them.

 

[kiny]

For those of you who have HIV/AIDS and crohns do you take immunosuppressants? Are you even able.

there are very few people with HIV and crohn's disease, it is extremely rare that someone with HIV gets crohn's disease

however, there are many people with lymphopenia and crohn's disease, I have lymphopenia and I don't use things like 6MP for example

often ideopathic lymphopenia is called "non-HIV lymphopenia" just like in AIDS CD4+ are affected in T lymphopenia, but you can not find the HIV virus, I have been tested for HIV but I don't have HIV, yet I have low CD4+

both AIDS and lymphopenia involve reduction in CD4+ (and often CD8+) T lymphocytes, the difference is that with ideopathic lymphopenia the amount of T cells seem to remain stable, while in AIDS they tend to keep dropping, people with lymphopenia are more susceptible to infections just like AIDS patients

as far as treatment, there is some overlap between AIDS and lymphopenia, if your t cells drops below around 200 / mm^3 you are given preventive antibiotics

 

[kiny]

regarding immunosupression and lymphopenia or even infections...immunosupressants are still used during lymphopenia and during infections when you want to control the inflammation...it is often far more important to save the organ than to control the infection

things like imuran / 6mp, an immunsupressive, has been used to treat infections, how weird it might seem at first...sometimes stopping the destructive inflammation is more important that treating the infection in the short term

some of the immunosupressants that people use for crohn's disease were actually developed to treat infections, inflammation can cause organ and nerve damage

 

[nogutsnoglory]

There have been a few who have HIV/AIDS on the for um. Are you saying someone with HIV would be less likely to have a Crohn's gene activate? What about if someone with existing crohns contracted HIV? I'm curious if they are unable to take any biologics?

 

[kiny]

There have been a few who have HIV/AIDS on the for um. Are you saying someone with HIV would be less likely to have a Crohn's gene activate? What about if someone with existing crohns contracted HIV? I'm curious if they are unable to take any meds.

I have T lymphopenia and I get traeted by the same people who treat HIV patients, and there is no one who has HIV and crohn's disease, for some reason it is extremely rare. It probably has a reason, I just don't think anyone knows the reason behind it.

I don't know about the reverse, people with crohn's disease then catching HIV, there's no reason why they would be protected against HIV infection, however, people who already have HIV-AIDS don't seem to get crohn's disease, or at least it is extremely rare.

 

[kiny]

I'm curious if they are unable to take any biologics?

if your T cells drops to 200/mm^3 you get stuff like sulfamethoxazole to prevent lung infections, they would be able to take antibiotics

biologics...I don't know....it's so rare to see someone with HIV and crohn's disease that that question probably rarely comes up

 

[xmdmom]

If you google scholar search HIV and Crohn's a few articles (case reports) come up.

 

[kiny]

The study that came up had patiients with sub 200 CD4+ / mm^3 with active CD, at sub 200 you get screened for lung infections and get antimicrobials, regardless if you have AIDS or non-HIV lymphopenia.

My CD4+ have dropped below 200/mm^3 and my CD was not any better for it, which makes me seriously question the "overreactive immune system" theory, there is no basis or evidence for it in any shape or form.

There are many accounts of low CD8+ and CD too. However it's really rare to see B lymphopenia and CD, or NK cell abnormalities.

 

[SMSIRL]

An interesting paper pertaining to Crohn's and HIV. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9412950

There is nothing in the literature consistent with there being a causal relationship between HIV and Crohn's. In fact, there are descriptions of cases of IBD going back to the time of Giovanni Battista Morgagni in the mid-1700's. As this well proceeds the first AIDS cases I think we need not worry about a causal relationship.

However, it should not come as any surprise that two conditions that involve the immune system have some overlap of issues involved.

Just a word to the wise - as we all know Crohn's causes inflammation of mucous membranes. HIV typically gets access through mucus membranes. Any disease damaging mucous membranes provides an easier route for acquiring HIV. There is nothing specific in this to Crohn's, as many things, including std's and any other conditions that damage the integrity of the membrane, would have a similar effect. The inflammatory process might add an additional element as it brings immune cells into close proximity to the virus that would infect them.

The points made above about the "the autoimmune theory" of Crohn's needs to be repeatedly made. All the drugs we are using are potent drugs that are potentially very damaging. So, it would be nice if emphasis was placed on treating actual causes rather than on using drugs which, while useful, are based on an unsubstantiated aetiology. The utility of the drugs coupled with the profitability of such meds, can act as a dampener on the sort of research needed to identify the cause or causes of Crohn's syndrome(not Crohn's disease). Indeed syndrome is more appropriate than disease because we are classifying processes with common features which eventually may be found to be different diseases-We will not know until we have found the actual cause/causes.

 

[JustTalk]

Hi. Just found this forum and interested in the link with HIV and Crohn's.
Well i have both, interestingly i was told there was no link by a consultant,
What a foolish man, the proof has been in the pudding (or lack of it,for two years).
I suffered for a whole two years, before undergoing surgery to remove my jejeunum.
Simply the immune symptom suppression in my case,caused the twisting of my bowel.
Ignorance of the medical staff allowed a prolonged period of my diagnosis.
Just an after thought please be wary of prednisolone.
Thanks for reading

I am in shock. I have been living with my partner for 19yrs. Today he tells me he will be tested for HIV. Not in any breath did he say I had to be worried in fact I was not considered. Can I catch HIV from him if he is found positive !?

 

[eleanor_rigby]

I am in shock. I have been living with my partner for 19yrs. Today he tells me he will be tested for HIV. Not in any breath did he say I had to be worried in fact I was not considered. Can I catch HIV from him if he is found positive !?

Why is your partner getting tested now? If you are concerned you could get tested to. You can catch HIV through sex without a condom (oral, anal and vaginal), or through sharing needles.