Inflammatory foods

[nogutsnoglory]

Do those books that list inflammatory foods apply to us? I'm not sure if it's inflammatory everywhere or just for heart disease etc.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/help/inflammation

 

[mickey]

People have inflammatory reactions to different things. Inflammation certainly breeds disease, so perhaps inflammation in another part of body may affect your disease in belly. Worth a try!

 

[kiny]

People have inflammatory reactions to different things.

I do not believe that, because it makes no sense. There are specific elements in foods that are either inflammatory or not, it does not depend on the person.

Lycopene is a good example, it is anti-inflammatory, and it does not depend on the person, it is anti-inflammatory in every single person / animal they test it.

Why would it differ per person?



Same argument people use for foods.

"Everyone has a different trigger food"

Uhm, what? How does that make any sense?? The only reason people say that is because judging food just by looking at it's short term effects is unreliable and you end up with 1000 opinions on food that are all wrong.

Some foods might make inflammation worse or better, but it's not going to be a cherry for person A, a banana for person B, and ice-cream for person C. That makes no sense, how does that make sense to anyone, it does not, it goes completely against any logic.

 

[kiny]

While I rant anyway, sorry.

This reminds me of the people who say SCD cured them. According to SCD carbs feed bacteria and you get inflammation. No starch bla bla bla, the book claims by eliminating complex carbs you will avoid feeding bacteria and it will improve crohn.

Inulin (carb (starch)) use in crohn lowers inflammation because bacteria use it to ferment it and it produce anti-inflammatory substances like butyric acid.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/137/11/2572S.full

SCD diet is 100% flat out wrong. The exact opposite is happening of what SCD claims.

Stupid hype.

There are not 1000 different trigger foods spread out per person, or 20 opinions that are all right. There can only be 1 opinion that is right and one that is wrong, either a substance is anti-inflammatory or it is not, it can not be both at the same time.

 

[Dunbar]

When it comes to 'trigger foods' I think what is the issue is if it bothers YOU, vomiting, achey, lead weight in gut feeling, general malaise etc
You may have a point with the it's anti inflammatory or not. What are your thoughts on acidic vs alkaline and how that may effect how you tolerate or not , certain foods.

 

[Bob Rose]

Foods have a profound effect on crohns, especially simple carbs, dairy and anything requiring a slower transit time and more acidity to breakdown. Drug free and very few symptoms after 20 years battling severe crohns.

 

[shmo]

I do not believe that, because it makes no sense. There are specific elements in foods that are either inflammatory or not, it does not depend on the person.

It absolutely does. Look no further than the common peanut. For some people they are extremely inflammatory. For others, not. Inflammation is what the body can tolerate or not tolerate. Some people can tolerate lactose a lot better than others. In fact not only does it depend on the person, but how the person is feeling that day/week/month/etc. In times of stress, wheat can be more inflammatory than in times of relative calm.

We are not carbon copies.

 

[kiny]

del

 

[kiny]

In times of stress, wheat can be more inflammatory than in times of relative calm.

where does it say this?

 

[kiny]

Some people can tolerate lactose a lot better than others.

Because they have the same disease. Each person with this disease will all respond the same way to that substance. Which is my point.

If someone is accurately diagnosed, there can't be any difference that one food is good and another is bad depending on the person.

If they thought like that with diabetes, they would kill people.

It is not ok for crohn either.


You can say "bread is bad for me because I have crohn and celiac but bread is ok for her because she has only crohn".

You can not say "bread is bad for me because I have crohn but good for her because she's just different".

That makes no sense, at all, it get no one anywhere. You can never make a decent diet like that, since you throw any reason and logic overboard like that.

"Everyone has a different trigger food" way of thinking will never lead anywhere. It leads to things like "elimination diet" that end up with people who have shortages on vitamins and amino-acids, thinking they can accurately predict which foods cause issues, they can't. They all end up in the hospital.

 

[Jennifer]

Everyone does have different trigger foods Kiny, Crohn's aside. For instance some people are able to digest lettuce better than others so those who can digest it should eat it and those who it causes symptoms like diarrhea should try to avoid it unless they want their system flushed. Take lactose for example as well. Many people can't tolerate it and are on the verge of being lactose intolerant (or are already) not because milk itself is bad but because their body doesn't produce enough lactase which helps break down lactose. Not everyone produces the same amount of lactase but studies have shown that people tend to start producing less lactase around seven years of age. Obviously not everyone is lactose intolerant though.

With "trigger foods" all it means is that particular foods cause people particular symptoms with or without IBD (fiber is one of the main ones as it cannot be digested by humans in general). When in a flare though these foods can bring on more symptoms (hence why in remission you can eat pretty much whatever you want) so people learn to avoid them.

As far as following a particular diet goes, people just need to learn for themselves what works for them and not follow some random diet that worked for someone else because everyone is different. We all need nutrients and we'd all like to avoid horrible symptoms. If some diet says "don't eat _____" but you know you can tolerate it (I'm talking healthy food here not obviously bad for you fried sugar sort of stuff), then screw the diet and eat what you know you can.

 

[kiny]

Those are not reasonable arguments.

People with lactose intolerance are an example that supports logic. They ALL can not support lactose (in varrying degrees), because they belong to a demographic with a disorder related to lactose.

The same happens with diabetes.

Why are you trying to convince people this is not the case for crohn and everyone has a different trigger food.

Can you show any proof of this, because I showed one where it's not the case.

The reason there are 10 million different trigger foods for crohn is not because that's actually the case, it's because no one can accurately predict if food was related to their disease state or not. The only accurate way to show it is in vitro or with super long in vivo studies, which no one on their own can do.

Crohn might be more than one disease, related to difference in pathogens and gut flora I can agree on, I always mention it, but this still supports logic and reasoning, different categories that should result in more individual treatment, but it still does not support randomness.

That someone responds completely different to all sorts of foods and every person has some different trigger is not logic, it is stupidity. Done with discuss.

 

[Jennifer]

People with lactose intolerance are an example that supports logic. They ALL can not support lactose (in varrying degrees), because they belong to a demographic with a disorder related to lactose.

It's not a disorder. Its completely normal. We're brought up on breast milk and then gradually start eating regular foods as we get older making lactase less important so the body produces less.

The same happens with diabetes.

I'm sorry no, they are nowhere near the same.

Why are you trying to convince people this is not the case for crohn and everyone has a different trigger food.

Can you show any proof of this, because I showed one where it's not the case.

Ya, just read through the forum we're on. There are many members who can eat say a salad and others who have symptoms from it. It has more to do with how their body responds than the food itself (because not everyone reacts the same way to every food).

The reason there are 10 million different trigger foods for crohn is not because that's actually the case, it's because no one can accurately predict if food was related to their disease state or not. The only accurate way to show it is in vitro or with super long in vivo studies, which no one on their own can do.

I think you may be confused. "Trigger foods" mean they cause symptoms (diarrhea, pain, bloating etc.) and these symptoms generally go away after the food passes through the body. It does not mean that it causes a "flare." There still aren't enough studies to back up any particular foods that actually cause a flare for someone who already has Crohn's or that they cause Crohn's in general (heck if we knew the cause we'd all avoid that particular food).

So far the only possible link that sort of makes sense is the amount of grain in our diets (since humans only recently started cultivating grain in terms of human evolution). Although personally I think if grains did play a roll it would be more along the lines of being a cause rather than it triggering flares but I'm still in the mind set that food has absolutely nothing to do with Crohn's at all.

That someone responds completely different to all sorts of foods and every person has some different trigger is not logic, it is stupidity. Done with discuss.

You can choose to not respond and that's completely fine. I'm failing to see how one person not being able to digest a leaf of lettuce vs someone who's able to digest it doesn't make sense. Its completely logical.

The real question is "why can't they digest it?" When there's active inflammation certain foods move through the body faster (such as fiber) and if there's a narrowing it will cause pain and if its moving faster, it will back up making the person bloated or nauseous or even vomit. Not everyone suffers from strictures though. That's just one simple example though on how certain foods will react to one person differently from someone who doesn't have a stricture.

 

[nogutsnoglory]

What confuses me about whether these non IBD specific low inflammatory diets work is that food like chicken is listed as highly inflammatory. Almost everyone here does well on plain baked chicken.

 

[Bob Rose]

Very informative discussion.

The problem is the immune system and it's inflamatory response. It looks for threats and has a tipping point into a series of cascading, escalating responses. Our systems are chronically closer to the tipping point of inflamation and then shock. You have to remove triggers over a period or time sufficient to get farther away from the threshold of response. Triggers are anything the individual system reacts to, certain foods, air quality, certain emotions, etc. Once you get habitually below the response threshold symptoms will moderate and vanish. It takes a lot of time, and a lot of discipline to change a chronic, severe condition, but it can be done.

 

[shmo]

Let's put it this way, Kiny. If trigger foods were all the same for people with Crohn's, there would have been a manual given to us all when we were diagnosed.

It would have been titled 'Don't eat what Donny Dont eats'

 

[kiny]

What confuses me about whether these non IBD specific low inflammatory diets work is that food like chicken is listed as highly inflammatory. Almost everyone here does well on plain baked chicken.

chicken is high in glutamine and protein, both help speed up intestinal repair, glutamine is essential for people with intestinal injury, glutamine is given in very high dosis after accidents and trauma, because of ability to repair tissue

 

[kiny]

Let's put it this way, Kiny. If trigger foods were all the same for people with Crohn's, there would have been a manual given to us all when we were diagnosed.

I was given a manual. It's not acceptable to say everyone has a different trigger food.

There are things that benefit people with crohn and things that could harm them, it is not random or different for everyone.

The image portrayed when you claim that, is one where it doesn't matter what one eats or it doesn't matter what research or studies show, since

"everyone is different",

no not everyone is different, there are complications in some people or different degrees in severity, but everyone who has active crohn has lesions in their intestine in the form of inflammation and ulcers, and everything that lowers inflammation and helps recovery will help for every single person

to claim otherwise or to try to support the notion that isn't the case is throwing everything we know about food overboard, and it it is stupidity

there are no 20 diets that work for crohn

SCD, paleo, elemental, and 20 others can not all work for crohn, none of them were even tailored for crohn and I already showed how ridiculous SCD is

why accept this, the SCD diet does a really good job at selling their books and a really louse job at explaining why it works for crohn

 

[kiny]

Ya, just read through the forum we're on. There are many members who can eat say a salad and others who have symptoms from it. It has more to do with how their body responds than the food itself (because not everyone reacts the same way to every food).

stop claiming random unsupported things like that with anecdotal evidence

you know just as well as me that there's no way someone can accurately predict a salad caused a flare, and you have no study to back you up

the only way you claim this is because you were looking for an argument and couldn't find one

ppl say the most random things about food related to crohn, some can eat salads, some can't what...?

SCD works for me, not for you, what...?

paleo works for me, not for you, what...?

elemental works for me, not for you, what...?

I can eat sugar, I can't...what?

genetrally accepted diets for crohn like SCD, paleo, and the 5000 other claims authors, and advocates, many who make lots of money, use make 0 sense

They make no sense because they're not true. And people are not so vastly different that everyone would need a different tailored diet and everyone responds completely different. No, then we're back into the stupidity realm of randomness, based on anecdotal evidence.

 

[annawato]

hhmm. difficult but interesting discussion. Just from my reading of this, I would have to say there are probably anti inflammatory foods just as there are anti inflammatory drugs which woud be beneficial to everyone except that we can all get side reactions to certain drugs and presuamably certain foods too. Fish oil is an excellent anti inflammatory but some people can't tolerate it. Personaly, diet has o effect on my crohns - but i'm open to learning and trialing foods that are scientifically proven. We do have to be careful of internet mumbo jumbo no matter how fabulous and entcing it sounds.

 

[Jennifer]

you know just as well as me that there's no way someone can accurately predict a salad caused a flare, and you have no study to back you up

Kiny you'll have to go back and reread what I wrote cause you're not understanding a word I've said.

I never said that foods causes flares. I stated simple facts about how things like fiber can cause diarrhea. Diarrhea would be considered a "symptom" (symptom does not equal flare). Foods that trigger "symptoms" are called "trigger foods." A trigger food is not a food that causes flares. My posts were pretty clear.

I don't know how to make this anymore clear to you. Help me understand what part you don't understand and I'll try to explain it better.

Edit: Basically I agree with you that food does not cause flares. What I think is happening here is that you think the phrase "trigger foods" means that it triggers a flare but what it really means is that it triggers symptoms (doesn't matter if you have Crohn's or not, even if you don't have Crohn's there are still certain foods that bring on diarrhea, gas, pain etc.).

 

[kiny]

all of the diets for crohn that are known are elimination diets, there is not one support diet that is specifically anti-inflammatory and helps in wound repair

 

[kiny]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22038507

Glutamine and whey protein improve intestinal permeability and morphology in patients with Crohn's disease: a randomized controlled trial.
Benjamin J, Makharia G, Ahuja V, Anand Rajan KD, Kalaivani M, Gupta SD, Joshi YK.
Source

Department of Gastroenterology and Human Nutrition, All India Institute of Medical Sciences, Ansari Nagar, New Delhi 110029, India. [email protected]
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Increased intestinal permeability (IP) has been implicated in the etiopathogenesis, disease activity and relapse of Crohn's disease (CD). Glutamine, the major fuel for the enterocytes, may improve IP.
AIM:

We evaluated the effect of oral glutamine on IP and intestinal morphology in patients with CD.
METHODS:

In a randomized controlled trial, consecutive patients with CD in remission phase with an abnormal IP were randomized to a glutamine group (GG) or active control group (ACG) and were given oral glutamine or whey protein, respectively, as 0.5 g/kg ideal body weight/day for 2 months. IP was assessed by the lactulose mannitol excretion ratio (LMR) in urine, and morphometry was performed by computerized image analysis system.
RESULTS:

Patients (age 34.5 ± 10.5 years; 20 males) were assigned to the GG (n = 15) or ACG (n = 15). Fourteen patients in each group completed the trial. The LMR [median (range)] in GG and ACG at 2 months was 0.029 (0.006-0.090) and 0.033 (0.009-0.077), respectively, with P = 0.6133. IP normalized in 8 (57.1%) patients in each group (P = 1.000). The villous crypt ratio (VCR) [mean (SD)] in GG and ACG at 2 months was 2.68 (1.02) and 2.49 (0.67), respectively, (P = 0.347). At the end of 2 months LMR improved significantly in GG from 0.071 (0.041-0.254) to 0.029 (0.006-0.090) (P = 0.0012) and in ACG from 0.067 (0.040-0.136) to 0.033 (0.009-0.077) (P = 0.0063). VCR improved in the GG from 2.33 (0.77) to 2.68 (1.02) (P = 0.001), and in ACG from 2.26 (0.57) to 2.49 (0.67) (P = 0.009).
CONCLUSIONS:

Intestinal permeability and morphology improved significantly in both glutamine and ACG.

 

[David]

Kiny,

Let's say that person X has disease in the duodenum which has blunted their intestinal villi there and person Y has disease in their terminal ileum but their duodenum healthy, and person Z has small intestinal bacterial overgrowth due to stricturing. Can you really not see how different foods will affect them differently?

They make no sense because they're not true. And people are not so vastly different that everyone would need a different tailored diet and everyone responds completely different.

I could come up with hundreds, probably thousands of different presentations where people are going to respond differently to foods based upon their medications, phenotype, how their disease is presenting, etc. Point being, people ARE vastly different.

 

[kiny]

I said above that a diet should take complications into considerationg, but that doesn't take away that a diet for crohn should look similar from person A to person B.

What you have no is a number of diets, made for people who do not have crohn and one made by a single person who has been proven wrong a lot of times (SCD).

Results would not the same for everyone, because the severity of the disease is not the same, but glutamine is involved in wound repair and if you give someone glutamine the repair will be supported and faster if there was a shortage, that is a fact, without glutamine or enough protein you do not heal.

That is why glutamine is administered in hospitals after trauma, I have had it.

 

[Jennifer]

all of the diets for crohn that are known are elimination diets, there is not one support diet that is specifically anti-inflammatory and helps in wound repair

I edited my post above but was too late obviously.

I never said to follow any specific diet. Just eat what you're capable of eating.

One diet that does help heal wounds is a liquid diet/gut rest but only slightly just because there's less irritation moving past. I'm sure that's something you can agree with but its not a diet anyone should be doing for long periods of time on their own. People still need nutrients so if you're going to do gut rest for long term then you should be hooked up to an IV to get at least some nutrition that way.

 

[kiny]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22038507

Time to wound closure in trauma patients with disorders in wound healing is shortened by supplements containing antioxidant micronutrients and glutamine: A PRCT.
Blass SC, Goost H, Tolba RH, Stoffel-Wagner B, Kabir K, Burger C, Stehle P, Ellinger S.
Source

Department of Nutrition and Food Sciences, Nutritional Physiology, University of Bonn, Endenicher Allee 11-13, 53115 Bonn, Germany.
Abstract
BACKGROUND & AIMS:

: We hypothesize that wound closure in trauma patients with disorders in wound healing is accelerated by supplementation of antioxidant micronutrients and glutamine.
METHODS:

In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial, 20 trauma patients with disorders in wound healing were orally supplemented with antioxidant micronutrients (ascorbic acid, α-tocopherol, β-carotene, zinc, selenium) and glutamine (verum) or they received isoenergetic amounts of maltodextrine (placebo) for 14 days. Plasma/serum levels of micronutrients, glutamine, and vascular endothelial growth factor-A (VEGF-A) were determined before and after supplementation. In the wound, several parameters of microcirculation were measured. Time from study entry to wound closure was recorded.
RESULTS:

Micronutrients in plasma/serum did not change except for selenium which increased in the verum group (1.1 ± 0.2 vs. 1.4 ± 0.2 μmol/l; P = 0.009). Glutamine decreased only in the placebo group (562 ± 68 vs. 526 ± 55 μmol/l; P = 0.047). The prevalence of hypovitaminoses and the concentration of VEGF-A did not change. Considering microcirculation, only O(2)-saturation decreased in the placebo group (56.7 ± 23.4 vs. 44.0 ± 24.0 [arbitrary units]; P = 0.043). Wound closure occurred more rapidly in the verum than in the placebo group (35 ± 22 vs. 70 ± 35 d; P = 0.01).
CONCLUSIONS:

Time to wound closure can be shortened by oral antioxidant and glutamine containing supplements in trauma patients with disorders in wound healing.

 

[David]

Ok, you like glutamine and protein. No problem. Are you aware that the SCD and paleo both result in extremely high protein intake? Oh, and guess what are the top food sources of glutamine? Beef, chicken, fish. Guess what you eat a lot of on SCD and paleo without all the other crap that so often negatively affects people?

 

[kiny]

these are not things that differ from person to person, they are consistently similar in every single person, it does not depend on the person if something works or not, that is my point

(severity differs yes, but I never argued that, I argued that something can not affect one person differently from another if they share a common disease, unless the disease is not the same (pointed this out too), or there are complications, otherwise substances should have the same effect)

 

[kiny]

Ok, you like glutamine and protein. No problem. Are you aware that the SCD and paleo both result in extremely high protein intake? Oh, and guess what are the top food sources of glutamine? Beef, chicken, fish. Guess what you eat a lot of on SCD and paleo?

Yes, but that is not the claim SCD makes, the reason SCD is high in protein is because she (author) is trying to avoid polysaccharides and claims that duosaccharides not absorbed or turned into monosacharides left over in the intestine will cause inflammation, the study I linked on the top of the thread shows that is wrong.

That her diet is high protein is an unintended side effect of trying to avoid complex carbs.

The diet is not good when her claim is wrong, that complex carbs are inherently bad for you, the goal of the diet is to avoid all complex carbs, that is the number 1 goal of the diet, and as the study shows, you need complex carbs for butyric acid.

SCD is short in Short chain fatty acids, that's what makes it bad for crohn, many have said this, I am not the first. I learned it from others who said it.

 

[David]

Either resistant starches and/or nonstarch polysaccharides (found in fiber) will result in butyrate production. If they weren't getting enough then we'd see countless people on SCD presenting with what would essentially be [wiki]diversion colitis[/wiki] due to their colonocytes going crazy. But that's not the case.

I understand what you're saying Kiny. Heck, the author of SCD's theories on why it works may be completely incorrect, who cares. The reason I like SCD and paleo is they are systemized means of:

1. Forcing people to eat whole, fresh foods
2. Very little if any dairy
3. No gluten or grains
4. Very little to no sugar and sweeteners
And for you:
5. Force people to consume lots of protein and glutamine.

They force people to eat healthy and avoid common triggers. They may not be perfect diets, but they're pretty damn good. And the more we arm our bodies to fight this disease, the better off we're going to be. That's why I'm a huge fan of the shotgun approach. Medication, diet, lifestyle changes, nutrient supplementation, alternative treatments, etc. Hit it from every angle and give the body every tool in the arsenal to do what it is designed to do: heal.

Saying SCD and paleo are useless is doing a great disservice unless you come up with something better. If you tell someone, "Eat healthy" most in this day and age will have no idea how to do that. But if you say, "Buy a book on paleo or SCD and follow that" they you're pointing them in a direction that has helped many and they can handle that. They eat healthy, can get support from others on the same diet, and are given hope.

And as a result, they arm the body in its battle and just as importantly, stops disarming it.

 

[kiny]

Ok, well, I wish there was a diet tailored more to crohn instead of letting people with crohn do all the work. SCD is not horrible, but it has SCFA issue and it is super restrictive, unless you make your own food, it's a whole new job trying to juggle all the non-carb food while maintaining high calories. She eliminates staple foods like rice, potatoes, bread, etc, it's ridiculously restrictive, not supportive.

No funding from big pharma for diets = no research into crohn diets = stuck with ridiculous diets that can never be proven or disproven

But it can't be that hard to make a reasonable diet beyond SCD. High protein, low dairy, high amino, anti-inflammatory, with the right supplements. But 0 funding.

 

[sfmreb2]

I do not believe that, because it makes no sense.

I do believe that, because it makes no sense. After 40 years I have found no logic in crohns. If it bothers me I do not eat it (unless I want to suffer).

 

[kiny]

rewrite what you mean pls sfm

 

[sfmreb2]

Many years ago people said that the Earth was flat. It made no sense to them that it could be round. To say that it makes no sense so it can not be true is illogical when talking about food and Crohn's Disease. CD can be from your throat all the way down to where it comes out. Different foods react on me depending on what area is actively having problems. If a diet works for you then go for it.:thumright:

Have A Great Day,
Steve in Walla Walla

 

[hugh]

“There are specific elements in foods that are either inflammatory or not, it does not depend on the person”

sorry, wrong
Of course it depends on the person. Everybody's intestine is populated with bacteria, approximately 100 trillion (100,000,000,000) bacteria estimated to be from between 300 to 1000 different species preforming a vast and only partially understood range of functions

One, and only one of many function of gut microbiota is to process excess starch into SCFA's (short chain fatty acids). This is done by particular bacteria and these SCFA's help prevent IBD,
Some bacteria are thought to prevent IBD.
Some bacteria have the opposite effect.
Many things affect the balance, diet, food, stress, medication, none of this is in doubt.

Basically, the gut flora can PREVENT inflammation from occurring, or it can EXACERBATE inflammation.

Everybody has a different gut flora so everyone will have a different experience.

“ "Everyone has a different trigger food" “

I never know what people mean when they type this.
Usually they ate something that causes cramping, gass or diarrhoea, and suddenly it is responsible for causing the disease,
All they have learned is that something doesn't agree with their already delicate digestion, and that's great that they know and can avoid those foods. That's great but Inflammation? Says who? (so I agree with a tiny bit of your rant)

“Inulin (carb (starch)) use in crohn lowers inflammation because bacteria use it to ferment it and it produce anti-inflammatory substances like butyric acid.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/137/11/2572S.full

SCD diet is 100% flat out wrong. “

Wow dude, just because some “studies have shown benefit in animal models of colitis” for a particular carb doesn't mean anything.
Inolin is indigestible by human enzymes and is broken down by specific bacteria only in the colon, unlike grain starch, so a totally different metabolic process.

You totally misunderstand SCD, there are a large number of 'legal' sources of carbs in SCD, but the overall amount and type consumed is severely limited.

Elaine Gottschall had a theory which she turned into a rigid set of rules, I don't agree with all of it but I think it's a great theory that works for a lot of people , and is a good starting point for working out a personal diet and theory.
What's your beef, did you try it and it didn't work?

“They all end up in the hospital. ”

Huh? Get real, a few who mismanage the diet do but thousands live symptom free. If you want to rant at people that's fine but stop talking shit.

“Crohn might be more than one disease, related to difference in pathogens and gut flora I can agree on, I always mention it, but this still supports logic and reasoning, different categories that should result in more individual treatment, but it still does not support randomness.”

OK, i'd agree, all the people with a similar range of symptoms are diagnosed with crohns.
I've always thought of crohns as a symptom rather than a disease
But that only supports the theory that there isn't one diet for everyone, and is supported buy the FACT that a few diets work for LARGE numbers of cronies.

“but it still does not support randomness.”

Huh? “ might be more than one disease, related to difference in pathogens and gut flora”
It appears not to be random, more like different groups.

“That someone responds completely different to all sorts of foods and every person has some different trigger is not logic, it is stupidity”

Huh? We all have different enzymes balances, different stomach acidity, different bacteria, different severity, different location, different genes, different health, different immune system, different stress level, different food. - and that's just the beginning

“Can you show any proof of this, because I showed one where it's not the case.”

wow, I totally missed that.
I think 'trigger foods' is a misused term, some foods 'trigger' pain or gas or diarrhoea, sure, i believe., but they aren't 'triggering' the disease, and the discussion about some foods being a part (large or not) of the cause is a totally separate argument.

“why accept this, the SCD diet does a really good job at selling their books and a really louse job at explaining why it works for crohn “

boy, this really is a pointless rant Kiny,
The reason it is so popular is that it works for some people (many people),
The explanation they give may not be totally accurate, who knows ?(well ,apart from you obviously), i'm not so sure,
My preference is for the intestinal permeability theory, and gut flora is a huge part of that

“there is not one support diet that is specifically anti-inflammatory and helps in wound repair “

any diet that removes inflammatory foods is anti-inflammatory, and that will help repair

“that doesn't take away that a diet for crohn should look similar from person A to person B.”

all the diets that work are similar – paleo/scd/makers/raw vegan and many others are very similar in relation to inflammatory foods

“I argued that something can not affect one person differently from another if they share a common disease, unless the disease is not the same (pointed this out too), or there are complications, otherwise substances should have the same effect)”

If this was true then everybody would react the same to the same medication, and obviously they don't ,
oh yeah, wait, we're all different

“the study I linked on the top of the thread shows that is wrong”

no it doesn't, it shows that a particular polysaccharide may be beneficial, that's all,
stop making grandiose unsubstantiated claims.

 

[hugh]

oops, my rant, sorry.....

"unless you make your own food, it's a whole new job trying to juggle all the non-carb food while maintaining high calories. She eliminates staple foods like rice, potatoes, bread, etc, it's ridiculously restrictive, not supportive."

It's called FAT and it's great

we are the canaries in the coalmine of modern food production,

 

[nogutsnoglory]

Kiny, just because there is a lack of scientific evidence for some diets doesn't mean they aren't valid. Anecdotal evidence should not be discounted. Big pharma has ZERO interest in funding research on diet, alternative medicine or even actual drugs like LDN. If they can't patent it and make money it is of no interest to them. The government is also heavily lobbied by certain groups like big pharma, the meat and sugar, dairy lobbies that make it hard to get accurate dietary information.

Furthermore, nobody knows what's causing IBD. Maybe for me it's a genetic issue and the next person more of a bacteria issue. Different approaches may work for different people. Our bodies are different, we all have IBD but have different chemistry and other health conditions that complicate matters further. That's why even with scientifically tested IBD drugs you find they work wonders for some and others have no benefit or are allergic to it.

 

[David]

Ok, well, I wish there was a diet tailored more to crohn instead of letting people with crohn do all the work. SCD is not horrible, but it has SCFA issue and it is super restrictive, unless you make your own food, it's a whole new job trying to juggle all the non-carb food while maintaining high calories. She eliminates staple foods like rice, potatoes, bread, etc, it's ridiculously restrictive, not supportive.

We're so used to fast food, all kinds of amazing delicacies, and easy food preparation that we have huge tantrums (I say this from personal experience) when we have to actually prepare our food and put a little thought into it. I spend about 1.5 hours a day preparing the food for my wife and I. At this point I've accepted and now even revel in it as I love the fact that we're eating much healthier. Yes, it takes effort but our society went too far in the other direction and we're paying for it.

Moving back to the original topic...

As for inflammatory food, one of the biggest things I'm trying to do is greatly improve my n3 to n6 fatty acid ratio. Your n3 fatty acid tend to be anti-inflammatory and your n6 fatty acids tend to be inflammatory. Traditionally, we had about a 1-1 ratio. In the western diet, it can be more like 1-20. Does it make a difference for people with IBD? I don't know for sure but believe it comes back to providing our body with the nutrients it needs and foregoing the foods/ingredients that stress/damage it so it can focus on fighting disease. We can't expect our cars to run well if we put dish soap in the gas tank.

 

[sfmreb2]

How many definitions of "trigger foods" are there? I'm seeing at least two. Some seemed to say that it is what caused Crohns. For others it seems to be a reaction to a certain food(s). Is there an agreed definition that I missed in another post?:confused2:

 

[Jennifer]

How many definitions of "trigger foods" are there? I'm seeing at least two. Some seemed to say that it is what caused Crohns. For others it seems to be a reaction to a certain food(s). Is there an agreed definition that I missed in another post?:confused2:

It means to trigger symptoms like gas, bloating, diarrhea etc. (everyone has them even if you're completely healthy and don't have IBD, having IBD will cause you to have a worse response especially if you're in an active flare) but its miss used by many saying that it triggers flares or causes the disease. If the latter were true, we'd never flare again nor would many people be diagnosed (unless they wanted to flare or have Crohn's).

I guess it needs to be added into the forum wiki with a side not stating that some feel it means "causes Crohn's" and "causes flares" but there's no real evidence of this whereas I can look up something like broccoli or cabbage and see that it often causes gas just as a byproduct of digestion.

 

[KatyBuckeye]

Ok, well, I wish there was a diet tailored more to crohn instead of letting people with crohn do all the work. SCD is not horrible, but it has SCFA issue and it is super restrictive, unless you make your own food, it's a whole new job trying to juggle all the non-carb food while maintaining high calories. She eliminates staple foods like rice, potatoes, bread, etc, it's ridiculously restrictive, not supportive.

No funding from big pharma for diets = no research into crohn diets = stuck with ridiculous diets that can never be proven or disproven

But it can't be that hard to make a reasonable diet beyond SCD. High protein, low dairy, high amino, anti-inflammatory, with the right supplements. But 0 funding.

You're right that there is not enough funding for research into diets for Crohn's. However, even if there were unlimited funding to conduct dietary research, from a scientific perspective, it is very difficult to perform research studies on diets such as SCD. There are too many factors/variables that would be difficult to control in a research study focusing on the SCD. The diet is restrictive, and even people that are trying not to cheat may accidently ingest an illegal ingredient at some point. It would be impossible to conduct a study in which all the participants ate the same exact SCD-legal foods, at the same exact times, in the same exact amounts, cooked and prepared in the same exact ways. Even if they did, every individual is unique (as other posters have already pointed out) and even the SCD has to be tailored to the individual.

There are some things in science that will never be "proven" or "disproven" with a great amount of certainty. The SCD is probably one of those. That does not bother me one bit because the diet is working for me.

If you follow a standard American diet, the SCD does seem restrictive. In reality, it's a very healthy and balanced diet in line with what our ancestors would have consumed. Most humans haven't evolved to be able to handle the consumption of grains and other agricultural products. Certainly not the twinkies and Big Macs. Following the SCD takes a lot of time and dedication. Personally, I don't care how much extra time I spend in the kitchen because the diet helps.

 

[sfmreb2]

It means to trigger symptoms like gas, bloating, diarrhea etc. (everyone has them even if you're completely healthy and don't have IBD, having IBD will cause you to have a worse response especially if you're in an active flare) but its miss used by many saying that it triggers flares or causes the disease. If the latter were true, we'd never flare again nor would many people be diagnosed (unless they wanted to flare or have Croh

Thank you, we agree.

 

[amien]

hi,

ive cleaned my diet but sometimes i splurge, what bothers one person might not bother another. beans, gluten, starchy foods, ofcourse anything spicy, seeds/nuts, and ofcourse junk food.

but ive been told to stay away from the nightshade family(tomatoes, bell peppers, potatoes, eggplants), i used to have bad cramps/spasms and now since ive stayed away from them i dont have that pain.

 

[hugh]

If you add these two studies togeather then you get a wide range of people suffering from a wide range of diseases, but the answer to all of them is some form of anti-inflammatory diet, - Paleo perhaps?

Dietary Lectins as Disease Causing Toxicants
http://www.pjbs.org/pjnonline/fin1120.pdf
Abstract: Lectins are carbohydrate binding proteins present in most plants, especially seeds and tubers like cereals, potatoes and beans. It is now well established that many lectins are toxic, inflammatory, resistant to cooking and digestive enzymes and present in much of our food and sometimes cause "food poisoning."
The global pattern of varying prevalence of diseases such as coeliac disease, autoimmune diseases, rheumatoid arthritis, obesity, cardiovascular disease and insulin dependant diabetes mellitus, suggests that some dietary factor specific to plant foods could initiate these diseases. Of the food lectins, grain/cereal lectins, dairy lectins and legume lectins are the most common ones associated with aggravation of inflammatory and digestive diseases in the body and improvement of these diseases and/or symptoms when avoided. Recent research has suggested that these lectins may effectively serve as a vehicle allowing foreign proteins to invade our natural gut defenses and cause damage well beyond the gut, commonly in joints, brain, skin and various body glands. With continued exposure of the gut by these toxic food lectins a persistent stimulation of the body’s defense mechanism in a dysfunctional manner occurs, which manifests as an autoimmune disease. If the lectins in diet are causative in initiating all these diseases, it should be possible to identify the responsible constituents and modify or remove them so as to make the diet healthier.

Leaky Gut and Autoimmune Diseases
http://crohnsdad.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/clin-rev-allerg-immunol-leaky-gutautoimmunity.pdf
Inflammatory Bowel Diseases
Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis are inflammatory
diseases involving the GI tract in which abnormal para-
cellular permeability defects precede the development of
both syndromes and, therefore, appear to play an important
role in disease pathogenesis [46, 47]. The pathogenesis of
inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) remains unknown,
although in recent years there is convincing evidence to
implicate genetic, immunological, and environmental fac-
tors in initiating the autoimmune process. Several lines of
evidence, however, suggest that an increased intestinal
permeability plays a central role in the pathogenesis of
IBD. In clinically asymptomatic Crohn’s disease patients,
increased intestinal epithelial permeability precedes clinical
relapse by as much as 1 year, suggesting that a permeability
defect is an early event in disease exacerbation [48]. The
hypothesis that abnormal intestinal barrier function is a
genetic trait involved in the pathogenesis of IBD is further
supported by the observation that clinically asymptomatic
first-degree relatives of Crohn’s disease patients may have
increased intestinal permeability [48]. We have recently
generated evidence suggesting that zonulin upregulation is
detectable in the acute phase of IBD and that its serum
levels decrease (but still are higher than normal) once the
inflammatory process subsides following specific treatment
[21]. While a primary defect of the intestinal barrier
function (possibly secondary to activation of the zonulin
pathway) may be involved in the early steps of the
pathogenesis of IBD, the production of cytokines, including
IFN-γ and TNF α secondary to the inflammatory process
serve to perpetuate the increased intestinal permeability by
reorganizing TJ proteins ZO-1, junctional adhesion mole-
cule 1, occludin, claudin-1, and claudin-4 [49]. In this
manner, a vicious cycle is created in which barrier
dysfunction allows further leakage of luminal contents,
thereby triggering an immune response that in turn
promotes further leakiness.

 

[Jandeacs]

What fun it is to eat something that’s good not just for the taste buds but for the whole body, too!

That would be courgette—or zucchini, a fruit of the Curcarbita family most often used and mistaken as a vegetable.

It may not be as potent as other vegetables but eating it has its own set of health benefits one of which is cancer prevention.

There is a limited study on the phytonutrient-content of courgettes, but lab studies show that squashes in general—including courgettes—have anti-cancer properties that inhibit cell mutations and prevent colon and lung cancer.

Courgette also plays a role in promoting a well-rounded cardiovascular health. It is rich in nutrients like magnesium and potassium which help normalize blood pressure. The vitamin C content along with carotenoids stops the oxidation of bad cholesterol in the blood, thus preventing the occurrence of strokes and heart attacks.

If you want to lose weight, you should include courgettes in your diet. It may be high in water but very low on calories and fats. A serving of 100 grams of courgette only has 15 calories.

Being rich in Vitamin C and lutein, eating courgettes can serve as an herbal remedy for people with vision disorders and sharpening the eyesight of those without.

It has antioxidants that slows down the ageing process and helps the reconstruction of brain cells. In fact, studies show that the vitamin E and omega 3 fatty acids-content of courgettes help stimulate the body in absorbing fat-soluble antioxidants, thus, helping improve the memory.

Other health reason why we should eat courgettes include prevention of scurvy, bruising and multiple sclerosis.

 

[briguy]

I just read this whole thread for the first time.

I think kiny is right. The fact that we think "everyone has a different trigger food" with no rhyme or reason and that the same person can have symptoms triggered by different foods at different times just shows how poorly we understand this disease. The attitude of most doctors that each patient is a completely unique case with different triggers is anti-scientific and anti-knowledge.

The medical community seems to agree that diet has a lot to do with crohn's but then spends all their research dollars on drugs rather than dietary research. The healthcare system doesn't work for the patients.

We had might as well believe that each food has a different god and if the food triggers your symptoms then that means you have upset the god for that particular food.

 

[David]

I think part of the problem is food can be so varied. You take three pieces of lettuce from three different lettuce plants grown within 100 feet of each other and they can each be vastly different.

Lettuce 1 may have high nitrate levels because a lot more ammonium nitrate fertilizer came out of the machine near it.

Lettuce 2 may have high amounts of pesticide levels because the sprayer got a call on his cell phone and kept spraying for a few extra seconds because he was distracted.

Lettuce 3 may have high levels of herbicide on it.

And of course, we don't eat just lettuce. We eat a salad. With mixed greens, other veggies, and highly variable salad dressing.

There are SO MANY variables. It's tough

 

[briguy]

Agreed. Too many variables and no good way of collecting data or analyzing it.

My big thing is hydrogenated oils. In my 20 years of crohn's that's the only thing that I have noticed which definitely always triggers my symptoms. The thing is that hydrogenated oils can be in virtually anything, meat, veggies, bread, snack foods, etc... If I eat a food that really bothers me I normally find out it was cooked with pam or something similar.

I've never had any issue with lettuce or any kind of salad greens, so when I see people say lettuce is a trigger I wonder what else was in that salad and especially what kind of dressing. On the other hand maybe their crohn's is just different from mine.

 

[nogutsnoglory]

David is right that there are so many variables. One might do fine with spinach and the next person may react. Did you have raw spinach, was it cooked, steamed, blended, puréed? Was it fresh spinach or frozen? Different ways of preparing break down foods for the better or worse.

Furthermore different foods digest differently and we may all have the same disease but different areas of the digestive system are inflamed.