Is Mycobacterium Avium Sub-species Paratuberculosis the cause of Crohn's disease?

[JMC]

Ever since the discovery of Crohn's disease it has been speculated that a pathogen, Mycobacterium Avium Sub-species Paratuberculosis (MAP), was its cause. What is your view?

I have created a new thread here, to catalogue the latest MAP research

 

[D Bergy]

From my own experience, MAP is a major player in Crohns, but probably not the original cause. I would expect more cases of Crohns if it was.

My best guess based on what I have personally found in treating myself is another pathogen that is the root cause. I suspect Mycoplasma pneumonia or another strain such as Mycoplasma fermentans alters the immune function. Once that has been accomplished, exposure to MAP or an already present exposure becomes a chronic infection.

The MAP secretes mannose, which feeds various strains of E-Coli some which are harmful strains. All three pathogens can produce symptoms that are common to Crohns. Crushing fatigue, and strictures seem to be the work of mycoplasma directly, but it is possible MAP contributes also.

I also think that Crohns is only one disease that results from the original Mycoplasma infection. Once the immune system has been compromised, a person can contract any number of pathogens, and diseases.

One other pathogen involved in my Crohns is H-Pyori. It may just be a coincidental coinfection, but it makes symptoms worse.

To sum it up, something compromises the immune system first, which allows a common pathogen to flourish in the body, that normally would not. The rest is just a chain reaction from there.

Of course it is just my hypothesis, but I think it is close to correct although it probably is not complete.

Dan

 

[xeridea]

I think there is something there in MAP secretion of mannose disrupting phagocytosis and interfering with macrophage function. Seems that this may inhibit clearance of pathogens and contribute to immune deficiency. This is all over my head but there are papers out there regarding this topic. Maybe someone who has a grasp on molecular or cellular biology can chime in. Some articles I can reference are (please decode since site doesn't allow me to post links yet)

www dot ncbi dot nlm dot gov slash pmc slash articles slash PMC2213176

and

onlinelibrary dot wiley dot com slash doi slash 10.1111 slash j.1348-0421.2006.tb03782.x slash full.

 

[David]

I do not believe it is the cause, no. I do believe that in some people, MAP may contribute to disease activity and controlling it would help. I'm certainly open to being wrong, however.

 

[Karma]

If it can do it in cattle (Johne's), I reckon there's a good chance of similar in humans.

As for low numbers of cases in humans. Maybe it just requires particular genetic mutation(s) and a little bad environmental luck. Perhaps Crohn's is actually a number of diseases and one of them is a vulnerability to these, and perhaps other similar, bacteria?

My gut feeling(!) is yes. Let's hope we find the answer asap.

 

[JMC]

I do not believe it is the cause, no. I do believe that in some people, MAP may contribute to disease activity and controlling it would help.

What evidence do you base that on David? Do you have an alternative hypothesis? MAP as the cause of Crohn's is supported by a huge amount of scientific literature and even in the last 6 months the supporting evidence has continued to grow. What is more exciting is that we now have the tools to prove this one way or the other, so I expect a definitive answer in the next 1-2 years.

 

[JMC]

Perhaps Crohn's is actually a number of diseases and one of them is a vulnerability to these, and perhaps other similar, bacteria?

It will be like peptic ulcers, 90% of cases will be caused by something like MAP, and all the rest by a variety of different causes.

 

[David]

JMC, admittedly, I haven't read many studies in the last year or so. If there have been some good ones you think I should read, please link me. And yes, I have an alternate theory but it is just a theory.

Let me ask this. If MAP is the cause, why does enteral nutrition help so much in the treatment of many cases of Crohn's?

 

[AJC - Australia]

can I chime in on the enteral nutrition?

The Crohn's gut can get to a physical state where it cannot digest anything other than liquids…that is why this diet helps, because the gut is so ulcerated, narrowed and compromised.

What causes that narrowing and ulceration?
It isnt diet.
Once the gut is inflamed and ulcerated, diet can make the symptoms worse and/or better…but what causes the problem in the first place?

Every gastro on the planet will tell you there is
- a bacteria or environmental component
+
- a genetic component

we know there is a genetic component….it is proven

so, what is the bacterial component?

Why the resistance to the MAP bacteria when it has been proven via Koch's postulates (a legitimate scientific method) and it has been proven to invoke crohns like guts in mice and cattle. Dr Naser is citing 85% of the gut tissue he has operated on and tested for the MAP bacteria are positive, IN THE GUT WALL…living below the surface, compared to 20% of tissue from bowel wall biopsies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4064085/
under the entry 'CULTURE OF MAP FROM CD PATIENTS' (page 8 of 18)

The error that a lot of people are making with MAP bacteria is they foolishly assume that if the MAP bacteria causes crohns is one patient, it must cause it is 100% of patients to be the root cause. This is false. If you look at stomach ulcers and helio pyori, it was the CURE!!! yes?? OK, well in 95% of cases it was the cure but there are another 20 odd bacteria that cause the other 5% of cases.

The evidence for MAP bacteria being definitively linked to Crohn's is only a few baby steps away…they are going to prove or disprove it in the next two years and with the names of John Hermon- Taylor, Dr Saleh Naser and Dr Thomas Borody all behind it, i think we less educated folk would be foolish to dismiss the possibility that they are correct!

I hope to god that the MAP bacteria is the answer, it is the ONLY thing that offers anything like a cure. Of the treatments available, John Hermon-Taylor is the man with a vaccine - the other doctors are still working on long term anti biotic treatment.

 

[David]

can I chime in on the enteral nutrition?

The Crohn's gut can get to a physical state where it cannot digest anything other than liquids…that is why this diet helps, because the gut is so ulcerated, narrowed and compromised.

I agree that the digestive tract of people with Crohn's disease can have problems with digestion and absorption. But why is enteral nutrition putting some people into remission? THAT is my question.

Why the resistance to the MAP bacteria when it has been proven via Koch's postulates (a legitimate scientific method) and it has been proven to invoke crohns like guts in mice and cattle. Dr Naser is citing 85% of the gut tissue he has operated on and tested for the MAP bacteria are positive, IN THE GUT WALL…living below the surface, compared to 20% of tissue from bowel wall biopsies.

As I mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if MAP play a role in the disease activity of some people with Crohn's. They may take advantage of a certain condition or conditions. But that doesn't mean they are the CAUSE. If you kill MAP and the condition that allowed MAP to become pervasive and contribute to the disease state persists, then you haven't cured Crohn's disease. As Louis Pasteur said, "Bacteria are nothing the terrain is everything”.

As I've mentioned, I'm all for being wrong though. And if I'm correct and MAP is just contributing to the disease state of some people with Crohn's, all this research is still incredibly important. Because if it is contributing to disease state, then proper control of MAP may indeed alleviate symptoms or even help people achieve and maintain remission.

 

[D Bergy]

The terrain quote is actually a reference to what Pasteur supposedly said on his deathbed. This is a concession to his competitor Bechamp who was the proponent of the terrain theory.

Pasteur was a proponent of the germ theory.

I don't feel either is exclusive. Both theories can coexist nicely and there is evidence for both.

Dan

 

[D Bergy]

I do think a MAP vaccine would be quite helpful for some Crohn's sufferers. There are a lot of ifs and buts involved.

If MAP turns out to be the original cause and the vaccine is effective, it will help many. However many vaccines that exist now are not all that effective. So there is that problem.

Assuming the vaccine is effective, when an immune system altering bacterium is present for a long time, it creates its own ecosystem which promotes other pathogens that would not normally flourish. Often creating a biofilm of symbiotic bacteria that would not exist in these proportions in the general population.

In other words your whole biology has been altered by the presence of the original pathogen. Especially if that pathogen alters the immune function. It would be overly simplistic to expect that immunity to MAP would cure all ails. It may help in varying degrees depending on the individual but the same ecosystem is present in the body.

Some diseases are complicated, and from what I have gathered this is one of them.

I hope I am wrong, but that's not how it looks to me at this time.

Let's hope for the best.

Dan.

 

[Poppysocks]

There is no debate on this subject. You cannot argue scientific fact. Koch's Postulates are the criteria for designating a certain bacteria to be the cause for a specific disease. They have been met.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3803136

MAP causes Crohns.

And to David,

I think it could be a number of things. Lack of carriers for MAP to continue to wreak havoc on the body, lack of energy sources for the bacteria to thrive on. I think you could make the same case with SCD. Why do some people get better? Maybe bread feeds the bacteria, or acts as some type of energy source for the bacteria. And when you remove that factor the disease goes away. Who knows.

It is a good question, but that question doesn't change or disprove Koch's Postulates.

 

[xeridea]

Are there reliable diagnostic tools for detecting MAP in CD patients? If you cannot irrefutably prove that MAP is the causative agent, you'd be hard-pressed as a researcher to casually throw it around. It has huge implications for cattle and dairy industries. For example, the 2013 value of the beef industry in U.S. alone was close to $90 billion, and dairy about $40 billion.

 

[AJC - Australia]

there is currently no reliable diagnostic test for detecting MAP bacteria in Crohns patients…but Dr JOhn Hermon-Taylor and Dr Saleh Naser are bother very close. All Hermon - Taylor needs is funding to complete his diagnostic test, he is based in London.

Dr Naser has funding in the US and is also close to having a diagnostic test.

I think Hermon-Taylor needs about $500, 000US, a sixth of what Crohns and Colitis Foundation America raised last weekend.

Wouldnt you think one of these associations would cough up the money and lay this bacterial theory to rest, or prove it is the cause of Crohns disease?

The worst thing that ever happened for the map bacteria theory was the flawed clinical trial in Australia in 2007, because many doctors and most skeptics still cite that human trial, even though it had major holes in its method.

 

[AJC - Australia]

I agree that the digestive tract of people with Crohn's disease can have problems with digestion and absorption. But why is enteral nutrition putting some people into remission? THAT is my question.


As I mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if MAP play a role in the disease activity of some people with Crohn's. They may take advantage of a certain condition or conditions. But that doesn't mean they are the CAUSE. If you kill MAP and the condition that allowed MAP to become pervasive and contribute to the disease state persists, then you haven't cured Crohn's disease. As Louis Pasteur said, "Bacteria are nothing the terrain is everything”.

As I've mentioned, I'm all for being wrong though. And if I'm correct and MAP is just contributing to the disease state of some people with Crohn's, all this research is still incredibly important. Because if it is contributing to disease state, then proper control of MAP may indeed alleviate symptoms or even help people achieve and maintain remission.

I like where you are coming from David and it is true…change the environment and the Crohns symptoms change. Maybe whatever the bacteria is (MAP for example) maybe it thrives off processed sugars, starches and things not found in liquid diets….?
Then again, people who have incredibly healthy diets get crohns.
People with crohns who go on the liquid diet persist to have symptoms.
There def isnt a one size fits all..

 

[Karma]

EN does put people into remission. Im sure my GI said a big problem was that a flare up often occurs soon after the diet is stopped. Perhaps EN attenuates the MAP population through some starve/support other bacteria/support the immune system route. Since it's intercellular maybe you'd need EN for a year or two? If MAP is so prevalent in showers, food and water anyone who struggled to clear it would just become reinfected I guess.

All speculation really. It's a shame the vaccine can't be fast tracked to the very seriously ill. And it's pretty worrying that MAP is our food chain anyway. Why haven't they vaccinated cattle or tried to stamp it out? From a precautionary perspective it seems crazy. I won't be happy if it turns out to be the cause. At least in one sense, anyway!

Update: I meant 'intracellular'

 

[Axelfl3333]

Report on the BBC of a new virus discovered in human gut.scientists exploring genetic material in intestinal samples uncovered the CrASsphage virus.they say the virus could influence the behaviour of some of the most common bacteria in our gut.
Scientists say these type of viruses called bacteriophages ,have been shown to play a role in chronic diseases.

 

[Crohn2357]

If MAP is the cause, why does enteral nutrition help so much in the treatment of many cases of Crohn's?

http://www.eat-real-food-paleodietitian.com/paleo-diet-and-SIBO.html

"Elemental diet

An elemental diet is a like a pre-digested formula that contains pre-digested carbohydrate (glucose) and pre-digested protein (amino acid) as well as some fat. If you choose this approach, you would need to replace all of your meals with the formula for at least 2 to 3 weeks. The goal is to starve the bacteria. Although studies show that this method can be very effective at eradicating SIBO, the benefit is usually only temporary if dietary changes are not made. Elemental diets taste awful and can also be very expensive, costing at least $900-1350 per treatment (rarely covered). (3-4)"

 

[Poppysocks]

EN does put people into remission. Im sure my GI said a big problem was that a flare up often occurs soon after the diet is stopped. Perhaps EN attenuates the MAP population through some starve/support other bacteria/support the immune system route. Since it's intercellular maybe you'd need EN for a year or two? If MAP is so prevalent in showers, food and water anyone who struggled to clear it would just become reinfected I guess.

All speculation really. It's a shame the vaccine can't be fast tracked to the very seriously ill. And it's pretty worrying that MAP is our food chain anyway. Why haven't they vaccinated cattle or tried to stamp it out? From a precautionary perspective it seems crazy. I won't be happy if it turns out to be the cause. At least in one sense, anyway!

I've emailed CCFA about this, and I did not hold back. The fact that sick animals with johnes are allowed to enter our food supply and there are no laws or regulations prohibiting their entry is an absolute disgrace. Especially with the research out. I mean, kochs postulates were proven 20 years ago! The US prides itself on the "safety" of its food supply. It is very far from safe.

 

[mf15]

Just too add a little something,on the elemental diet putting people into remission,then once they start eating the disease may return.
Does not need to be live MAP, the MAP antigen is also in milk, and perhaps other foods.
That being said in early onset crohn's they are finding bacterial dysbiosis,which is not the
case in UC. Using an elemental diet would ten to change populations of bacteria,refeeding of course they would grow.
With UC the dysbiosis comes later.

The Faroe Islands have the highest incidence of IBD in the world, too bad I cannot get Johne's disease statistics from there. But they are were a colony of
Denmark, pretty high IBD incidence, and high Johne's disease in herds.
Australia also high IBD and Johne's.
Johne's first classified 1895, IBD history indicates incidence of
IBD in UK started to increase late 1890's early 1900's.
http://www.johnes.org/history/index.html
Old Mike

 

[David]

What would normal food provide fuel wise that would allow bacteria to thrive that an elemental diet would not?

 

[mf15]

Changed by post to say populations of bacteria. But still might suspect rapid absorption
by the intestine may alter what is left for bacteria to feed on.
OM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22622202

EEN
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/grp/2013/482108/

as you can see here something is going on with the bacteria metabolism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23016828

 

[xeridea]

This article studied how bacterial load effects macrophage recruitment in CD patients. It suggests that up to a certain level, there's normal cytokin recruitment, but at elevated loads, there's some inverse relationship where recruitment rates fall below levels of the tolerated loads.

EEN supposedly has nutrients absorbed in first 20% or so of the small intestine. This leaves the bacteria in the remaining 80% of the small bowel and pretty much the whole of the large bowel devoid of any significant energy sources, and thus a natural reduction in numbers. If the bacterial level goes below the threshold implied in article above, it would make sense you get into a range that results in "normal" cytokin recruitment and the inflammatory response normalizes.

I'll leave it to another thread but I prescribe to the school of thought that CD is an auto-inflammatory disease that is primarily an innate immune system dysfunction, and is distinct from UC which may in fact be an auto-immune disease like Celiac and RA.

 

[AJC - Australia]

JMC, admittedly, I haven't read many studies in the last year or so. If there have been some good ones you think I should read, please link me. And yes, I have an alternate theory but it is just a theory.

Let me ask this. If MAP is the cause, why does enteral nutrition help so much in the treatment of many cases of Crohn's?

Hi David,
I took time out to ask professor Hermon-Taylor about this and his reply is below…..thoughts? If you 'PM" me i can send you the pdf paper?

'The answer is in the attached paper para "Inflammation in CD caused by a two tier co-operative pathogenic mechanism". The segments of gross inflammation are not caused by a direct head-to-head confrontation between MAP and the immune system, as in TB. The primary enabling cause is because MAP infection which is throughout the gut, dysregulates the immune and enteric nervous systems which makes the gut leaky.'

'The secondary effector cause is the perturbed neuroimmune response to entry into the gut wall of microbiota and food residues from the gut lumen.
Enteric feeding eliminates the allergic and other responses to the food residues as well as changing the nature of the gut microbiota.
When you stop the enteric feeding the whole thing comes back because the underlying MAP infection and perturbed neuroimmune systems are still there.'

 

[kiny]

Don't know if the benefit of EN is nutritional, EN increases ceacam-6 production, and bacteria bind to it and it acts as a decoy. But if it really puts people in remission, I don't know personally. No studies that have rutgeerts score for EN, only CDAI studies, don't know how reliable they are. I use EN, but I have my doubts that it's able to put people in remission.

There were many studies that said helminthic therapy helped. Was debunked by a large study showing it does not. Crohn's disease was caused by too much hygiene, that's why we had unbalanced Th responses and everything could be explained by the hygiene hypothesis. That's why Africa didn't have CD, that's why richer families had more CD, it all made sense. People linked videos of GI explaining it all, they were convinced it was an unbalanced Th response caused by too much hygiene. Well, none of it was true, helminthic therapy failed.

There were many studies that said probiotics helped. In the last 2 years there have been a handful of large studies that showed that probiotics don't seem to help.

So, how accurate are those small EN studies, not sure.

If EN does anything, I think it would be because it increases ceacam-6 proteins, ceacam-6 binds to AIEC. Not sure why, but I do not think it is because of it's nutritional value.

 

[kiny]

http://gut.bmj.com/content/34/9/1198.long

This is one of those studies that people use to say EN is just as good as steroids. It only lasted 4 weeks, which by remicade standards isn't even enough to see initial healing with an endoscope in most cases. The patients within those 4 weeks who achieved "remission" actually relapsed faster than the steroid group, so within less than 4 weeks, people who were in "remission" with EN were relapsing faster than the steroid group. The study itself used DAI scores. But the conclusion was....that EN was just as effective as steroids, even though the remission didn't last 4 weeks, and steroids kept people in remission longer, but the abstract brushes it off and it's not talked about, it's only found in the data.

After 1 year, only 1 of 11 people on EN were still in remission. While 6 of the 19 on steroids were still in remission.

But the conclusion is still that EN can replace steroids, regardless that it doesn't keep people in remission.

 

[JMC]

'The answer is in the attached paper "Inflammation in CD caused by a two tier co-operative pathogenic mechanism".

The paper is available online here

The review by Campbell, Borody and Leis, in 2012 is also very useful. Borody is stongly of the opinion that there is little evidence to support the view that Crohn's is caused by an abnormal immune reaction to the natural gut microbiota. He lays out the case for the proven pathogens, including MAP, and the need for better tests and treatments for them all.

 

[wild_one353]

causation is a tricky concept. IT's not so linear, its a complicated set of events and relationships between biological entities.

I would say the cause of crohn's disease is damage to the microbiome which then allows a bacteria like MAP to flourish and cause greater levels of inflammation, in a similar way to other similar Gi disease, like C. difficile infection which presents itself with similar symptoms like never ending diarhea and occasionally inflammation. The microbiome is a collection of organisms(99%bacterial) that naturally live in our intestinal tracts to keep us healthy. There are other pathogens that are implicated in crohn's other then MAP, look up studies on Adherent Invasive Eschercia Coli (AEIC) in relation to crohn's and you'll see it goes beyond just MAP. So considering all this information, i believe The one and only true cause is damage to the microbiome from missing bacteria which would inhibit the growth of these organisms, and only a fecal Microbiota transplant can correct this. This is why we are starting to hear reports in journals now that people have been cured from FMT, having no symptoms of the disease some 25 years after their FMT for some UC patients, and 12 years for some Crohns patients. The variable results of the efficacy of FMT is due to variables that are not yet fully understood, as we learn more about how to restore damaged microbiomes with FMT, the success rates will improve. As for now, its hard to deny their potential with some people walking away completely cured, also the undeniable evidence that IBD patients also have missing bacteria that regulate inflammatory responses.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3868025/figure/F2/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3868025/

 

[JMC]

I would say the cause of crohn's disease is damage to the microbiome which then allows a bacteria like MAP to flourish and cause greater levels of inflammation, in a similar way to other similar Gi disease, like C. difficile infection which presents itself with similar symptoms like never ending diarhea and occasionally inflammation.

But the point was, where is the proof for that view? Borody is saying it does not exist...

It also strikes me that we are treating Crohn's as "special" and more complicated than other illnesses rather than assuming the simpler case that there is an obvious pathogen as the cause. What is the justification for that?

There are other pathogens that are implicated in crohn's other then MAP, look up studies on Adherent Invasive Eschercia Coli (AEIC) in relation to crohn's and you'll see it goes beyond just MAP

That is acknowledged in the Borody paper, which is why he describes it as a syndrome. I think the interesting question is this: If you take all the patients with Crohn's Disease Syndrome, what percentage would you find were due to MAP and those due to AIEC and those due to other bacteria? What people like Prof John Hermon-Taylor, Borody and Dr Saleh Naser are saying is that the vast majority (over 90% is JHT's claim) are due to MAP.

My other concern with the microbiome projects is that they are too vague and have no real targets or objectives. What needs to be fixed and how, to make people with Crohn's better? To me, it sounds like the sort of project (which let's face it, some scientists love) you could throw a huge amount and time and money at without any tangible results.

 

[wild_one353]

But the point was, where is the proof for that view? Borody is saying it does not exist...

It also strikes me that we are treating Crohn's as "special" and more complicated than other illnesses rather than assuming the simpler case that there is an obvious pathogen as the cause. What is the justification for that?


That is acknowledged in the Borody paper, which is why he describes it as a syndrome. I think the interesting question is this: If you take all the patients with Crohn's Disease Syndrome, what percentage would you find were due to MAP and those due to AIEC and those due to other bacteria? What people like Prof John Hermon-Taylor, Borody and Dr Saleh Naser are saying is that the vast majority (over 90% is JHT's claim) are due to MAP.

My other concern with the microbiome projects is that they are too vague and have no real targets or objectives. What needs to be fixed and how, to make people with Crohn's better? To me, it sounds like the sort of project (which let's face it, some scientists love) you could throw a huge amount and time and money at without any tangible results.

I think the only way to prove a pathogen as the cause with absolute highest degree of certainty is to infect a human being with it and see what happens, but that is never going to happen due to ethics.

Therefore, we are limited to really good theories, and really good theories must explain all scientific evidence. It must explain the facts, and not ignore facts such as why some people are being cured with a fecal transplant, why is AIEC also implicated in crohn's as well as MAP, why is butyrate production lower in ibd, why is there a lack of diversity in butyrate producing bacteria in IBD, why is it that the bacteria that are missing also may be the most potent regulators of inflammation? Why do people that take antibiotics have a greater susceptibility to IBD? Why is there a north south gradient in IBD suggesting vitamin d deficits create susceptibility? The hygiene hypothesis AKA missing bacteria hypothesis, to me seems the best.


In regards to calling it a syndrome, that's fine. We can subdivide it as there may be some differences that arise yet, to further define the disease beyond the simplest of symptoms such as diarrhea or inflammation. I believe these more precise differences in severity and symptoms may all be then again be retraced back to differences in pathogens that take over in relation to differences in which bacteria that are missing. No person may be found to have precisely the same amount of missing bacteria, nor to have precisely the same pathogens, and then we may have some genes that are slightly different to. But in the end, IBD is still inflammation with diarrhea. It's great we can break down every single molecule as far as possible and that is what is great about reductionism in modern science, but it may not be that necessary to subdivide everything so much. It's diarrhea with inflammation as far as I'm concerned.


The microbiome project was just completed 1-2 years ago, now we have a definition of normal to a higher degree then before to which we can judge with more accuracy what is considered abnormal. Those ARE the objectives that have been completed and are still underway, and it didn't cost much at all, perhaps under 50 million but don't quote me. It cost like 10 billion a month for the iraq war in comparison. It doesn't cost that much to do science as far as i recall, its a great investment for public good, its the iraq war that may have been a waste, its STILL not over. Do you remember the stories of hundred of millions of dollars on pallets that have been looted or the stockpiles of weapons that were stolen and likely in the hands of isis right now? they are bigger and stronger now. OK, way off topic haha.

I'm always willing to change my views in regards to better evidence, but remember my sources of evidence are derived from my own experience. But i am still evaluating the map theory so ill see what happens, but im pretty firm on the microbiome damage theory right now.

 

[xeridea]

Somewhat related to this topic, this study just came out on how a diseased state alters metabolic path of bacteria and though covering mouth community, suggests implications in CD as well. Might offer research tools on approaches to restoring healthy commensal gut balance. https://www.tacc.utexas.edu/news/fe...ria-can-change-its-diet-supercomputers-reveal

 

[David]

'The answer is in the attached paper para "Inflammation in CD caused by a two tier co-operative pathogenic mechanism". The segments of gross inflammation are not caused by a direct head-to-head confrontation between MAP and the immune system, as in TB. The primary enabling cause is because MAP infection which is throughout the gut, dysregulates the immune and enteric nervous systems which makes the gut leaky.'

Their theory of it causing immune system dysregulation is of interest to me as the SSI clinical trial operators feels the primary reason for it working is it resets the immune system.

 

[Trevor]

It is, imho, very possibly that the SSI is assisting the body to clear either active or latent infections. Or to effectively deal with infections as a 'healthy' host would. Something to do with infections...

I'll deffer to the trial researchers. As David mentions, they believe that the SSI resets the immune system and that fits very well with my experience.


My first two thoughts are:


"Could the SSI help the body to clear MAP outright?"

and

"Could the SSI be 'resetting' the immune system in a way that repairs the damage caused by MAP?"


Interesting stuff.

 

[AJC - Australia]

Their theory of it causing immune system dysregulation is of interest to me as the SSI clinical trial operators feels the primary reason for it working is it resets the immune system.

From my limited knowledge, the t-cell vaccine that Hermon-Taylor at crohnsmapvaccine has developed also 'resets' the immune system, by enabling the immune system to effectively kill off the MAP bacteria. It is not an anti-biotic pill that treats the symptoms, it aims to fix the immune system of people with crohns and has worked, already, on mice and cattle that present the crohns symptoms.

Like a lot of this crohn's stuff - and life in general - there are dozens of 'teams' all working towards the same result, to cure crohns…all with the same interest/intention, to make ourselves feel better and to make other people better. We should all be supportive of each other and offer no resistance to any study that is working towards a cure.



There is no way I would rule out the SSI trial, mapvaccine or any other relevant potential cure to Crohn's.

I tip my hat to every one on this forum that is trying to raise awareness of potential cures and dealing with the incessant skepticism that is thrown back at you from the so called 'experts'.

 

[AJC - Australia]

I think the only way to prove a pathogen as the cause with absolute highest degree of certainty is to infect a human being with it and see what happens, but that is never going to happen due to ethics.

But they can harvest the MAP pathogen from someone with Crohn's then put it into a cow (that was previously healthy) who then develops chronic infammation of the intestine. They then extract the map pathogen from the now diseased cow and harvest the bacteria in a process known as 'koch's postulates' which is a scientific method for determining causality.

This has been done, years ago. --> proving that MAP bacteria can cause Crohn's disease.

They can operate on someone with chronic Crohn's, then investigate the removed tissue and find a rampant MAP infection. The patient re-develops Crohns disease, after surgery, and they treat it with anti biotics, targetted at killing MAP and it works, the crohns abates while taking those anti biotics.

Given that Crohn's only affects 20 odd people per 100, 000 - they would have to have a pretty good idea that the person receiving the pathogen (in a trial) had the genetic predisposition before they gave them a heavy dose of the bacteria.

Maybe they could give it to someone who has Crohn's in remission, but then again, who would want to risk their life with it???

 

[rollinstone]

IMHO I also believe crohns is an umbrella term for multiple causative pathogens, MAP without a doubt being one, and AIEC being another.. Hopefully we get some solid break throughs sooner than later.

 

[sleepallday]

Up until about 2 years ago, I had never heard of Crohn's Disease. Since I've been diagnosed, off the top of my head I know now of 10 people within my workplace who also have it. For a relatively small staff pool, that ratio raises concern for me.

I work within the animal care industry which makes me believe that whilst predisposition to the disease may exist, a form of bacteria may "activate" the disease.

Are there any papers out there that report on the hypothesis of animal to human transmission?

 

[D Bergy]

I don't think you can adequately explain the varied effects of Crohn's disease without the inclusion of a mycoplasma infection.

We have symptoms of chronic fatigue, arthritis, impaired immune response, immune system mistakenly attacking non threatening microbes or body tissue.
Immune system unable to overcome infections. The list goes on.

MAP, AIEC, plus Mycoplasma = Crohns. That is what my unorthodox experimentation tells me. My results of treating these, again unorthodox, also support it at least in my case.

Some interesting info on Mycoplasma from Dr. Nicholson. It is pretty easy to see the possible role of this parasitic pathogen in Crohns and a host of other mysterious diseases.

http://www.immed.org/fatigue_illness_research.html

Dan

 

[mf15]

Lara: Here you go here is one on goat herders in india.
You can search here for MAP or google for MAP and crohn's you will find
much info. What kind of animals do you work with, are any sick.
You can also search crohns clusters.
Old Mike
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21703899

I urgently suggest that you contact Dr. Thomas Borody, you are even
in the same town. I suspect he might be interested in your Crohn's cluster.
Tell them you work with animals and have a IBD cluster,at work.
There have been a few other clusters,but this one is at his front door.
Its possible that since this cluster is in his backyard,he might be able to make
some sort of breakthrough,regarding animals,MAP and human IBD.
Of course there is always a chance that since IBD is high in Australia that 10 people just happen to work at the same place,but that seems a bit unlikely.
http://www.cdd.com.au/pages/contact.html

 

[worriedboy]

Lara,

Crohns clusterization is not unheard of...
There are groups which show number of cases much more than the averag. This supports the claim that an environmental factor is invovled. Yet, still not isolated. Those 10 cases are all CD or also UC ? Out of how many people ?

 

[AJC - Australia]

lara i agree, notify the centre of digestive diseases about this…it may help with the research!

 

[sleepallday]

Mf15 that was a very interesting read. Thank you for sharing.

All cases are CD and all of our animals are healthy with regular check ups (we are actually a AQIS quarantine zone, so staff have to undergo regular testing for various zoonotic diseases also).

I will notify the CDD for sure, if it can help only a little bit, I'd still be ecstatic.

 

[Scared1]

From my limited knowledge, the t-cell vaccine that Hermon-Taylor at crohnsmapvaccine has developed also 'resets' the immune system, by enabling the immune system to effectively kill off the MAP bacteria. It is not an anti-biotic pill that treats the symptoms, it aims to fix the immune system of people with crohns and has worked, already, on mice and cattle that present the crohns symptoms.

Like a lot of this crohn's stuff - and life in general - there are dozens of 'teams' all working towards the same result, to cure crohns…all with the same interest/intention, to make ourselves feel better and to make other people better. We should all be supportive of each other and offer no resistance to any study that is working towards a cure.



There is no way I would rule out the SSI trial, mapvaccine or any other relevant potential cure to Crohn's.

I tip my hat to every one on this forum that is trying to raise awareness of potential cures and dealing with the incessant skepticism that is thrown back at you from the so called 'experts'.

Amen to that! Anything that is a potential cause should be studied in my opinion, and never discouraged. I think though that reading from a lot of people's experience, many of the skepticism comes from those that have dealt with this disease for so long, perhaps they are just "tired" and I hope that relief comes eventually in the form of a cure. The MAP issue - hopefully, within the next 2 years, we will see a make it or break it. If they break it - then on to the next one. But if they make it....oh wow, that would be HUGE! And there is no reason to think in my opinion that it's not a viable and realistic possibility - considering that people have had life-changing experiences using the Anti-MAP - so if a vaccine would do what the antibiotics would do, no reason to think to think that for those people, their "remission/cure" would continue once they stop the anti-map after the vaccine becomes available. I just find it disheartening that its taking so long for the vaccine to come to fruition - where what they are asking for isn't really that much and why hasn't it been funded yet:-(