MAP testing

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Joined
Aug 22, 2012
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3
Hi

I am new here. I have a son with Crohn's (ulcers and granulomatous inflammation ) in the ileum and autism. He does well on many immune suppressive treatments (LDN and steroids) initially and actually gets worse on them after a week or so. He does well on certain antibiotics initially again and not much later (could be due to the antiinflammatory effects of some of them, I don't know).

I am interested in getting him tested for MAP bacteria. I was wondering if anyone knows a mainstream lab that can do it and what type of test (serum, biopsy, stool) is reliable for this. I am in touch with a lab that does testing for Johne's in cattle and they are willing to do the serum test but I want to make sure I am not missing anything before I go that route.

Thank you very much
J
 
It has to be a DNA test, IS 900 PCR. Culture is too slow because the bacteria multiplies too slow.

You also have to take into account that a negative test on MAP does not mean he is negative for MAP, since MAP is hard to detect.

What antibiotics please?
 
Thank you for your response. Is this lab good for PCR testing ?

Johnes Testing Center (sorry, it is not allowing me to post urls)

The antibiotics that helped my son initially (he would have no food sensitivities, happier, better BM, clearer speech, better cognition etc) but got worse later are
Penicillin shot
Azithromicin
Tetracycline
Rifampin and Bactrim combo (that was used in the name of bartonella treatment)
Rifaximin (used recently to improve motility and due to his inflammation being only in the ileum and duodenum and he has antral gastritis)

The antibiotics that were really bad even from the beginning are
Gentamycin
Flagyl
Amoxicillin

My son's recent stool test also showed mucoid e coli and haemolytic e coli. Are these the ones that are implicated in ileal Crohn's ?

Thanks so much for your help
J
 
Yes they are.

About the antibiotics.

You should be careful with them in general. Not really the antibiotics, but the resistance they create.

You are listing both macrophage penetrating and non-macrophage penetrating antibiotics.

MAP and invasive E Coli are found inside macrophages, they are trojan horses. The problem when you use something like Rifaximin is that you are creating resistance for Azitrhomicin and Tetracycline (and cipro and clarithromycin).

Rifaximin sounds like a really good antibiotic because it's broad spectrum, and it has very low bioavailability, but Rifaximin can not penetrate a macrophage, what is does do is create very high resistance for macrophage penetrating bacteria.

Flagyl has the exact same issue as Rifaximin, it creates very high resistance.

Amoxicillin is another broad spectrum anitbiotic, but it does not have the issues of Flagyl and Rifaximin, although it's not macrophage penetrating and it's also broad spectrum, it does not create the resistance like Flagyl and Rifaximin do.

The reason antibiotics stop working is because they:

1. discontinue them before the pathogen is killed creating resistance
2. they start with a low dose and then move up, meaning you create resistance and then you up the dose, but the harm is already done
3. they use non-macrophage penetrating antibiotics like Flagyl and Rifaximin, which might cause a chance in gut flora, which might temporarily help inflammation, but it's not non lasting since it's unable to get to the pathogen
4. you were exposed to something like Flagyl or Rifaximin in the past, meaning you predisposed yourself with antibiotic reistant strains that are much harder to kill now
 
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My son's recent stool test also showed mucoid e coli and haemolytic e coli. Are these the ones that are implicated in ileal Crohn's ?
J

I will look those up, I don't think they are AIEC, I think they are commencal


(when I said "yes they are" I was referring to the lab btw)

There is still discussion btw, about which E Coli are invasive and which are not, same with MAP for that matter. And some E Coli might be both, once there is an increase in permeability, commencal bacteria might contribtue to the inflammation because of the permeability and dysbiosis it creates.
 
Thank you SO much. I appreciate it.

As part of killing bad bacteria in stool and as part of lyme treatment, we've tried some antibiotics unnecessarily that I regret using now. I didn't know Rifaximin could also create problems with resistance.

J
 
My 12 yr. old daughter tested positive for MAP. The lab at the Johne's Testing Center at Univ. of Wisconsin sent us the blood culture results after 15 months. (Slow growing bacteria.) They are the leading researchers of MAP. Our GI, who initially disregarded the possibility of MAP, now acknowledges the validity of the test and is willing to work with Infectious Disease specialists to implement the anti-MAP antibiotic protocol should it become necessary. (She has had no Crohn's symptoms for 2 years while on SCDiet.) A large number of Crohn's patients apparently have the MAP bacteria. (I found an alternative MD who was willing to agree to approve the test.)
 

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