methotrexate, inflectra, remicade are drugs for dysbiosis

[cheka]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7954989/
Methotrexate impacts conserved pathways in diverse human gut bacteria leading to decreased host immune activation

We show that MTX broadly alters the human gut microbiota. Drug sensitivity varied across strains but the mechanism of action against DHFR appears conserved between mammalian and bacterial cells. RA patient microbiotas were sensitive to MTX and changes in gut bacterial taxa and gene family abundance were distinct between responders and non-responders. Transplantation of post-treatment samples into germ-free mice given an inflammatory trigger led to reduced immune activation relative to pre-treatment controls, enabling identification of MTX-modulated bacterial taxa associated with intestinal and splenic immune cells. Thus, conservation in cellular pathways across domains of life can result in broad off-target drug effects on the human gut microbiota with consequences for immune function.

 

[Jo-mom]

@cheka - we understand that you are very passionate about this topic, but this is a support forum and you are bombarding each forum with the same message. I am totally for alternative medicine. In fact, I studied for 10 years on a part-time basis on herbal medicine, nutrition, etc, but my son is on Remicade and MTX, and these are the only things that have helped him. I do believe that diet and supplements have their important place, but you are coming a little strong on each forum each time a person has a concern or is seeking support with the same information. You cannot claim 100% that probiotics will cure IBD or put it in remission. Every person is different. I mean no disrespect to your beliefs because I totally understand it, but it's not going to work for everyone, so if you can slow down the posting of the same message, that would be appreciated.

 

[cheka]

@cheka - we understand that you are very passionate about this topic, but this is a support forum and you are bombarding each forum with the same message. I am totally for alternative medicine. In fact, I studied for 10 years on a part-time basis on herbal medicine, nutrition, etc, but my son is on Remicade and MTX, and these are the only things that have helped him. I do believe that diet and supplements have their important place, but you are coming a little strong on each forum each time a person has a concern or is seeking support with the same information. You cannot claim 100% that probiotics will cure IBD or put it in remission. Every person is different. I mean no disrespect to your beliefs because I totally understand it, but it's not going to work for everyone, so if you can slow down the posting of the same message, that would be appreciated.

thanks for the reply. maybe a little background will help --

i try to limit most of my work to the subforum of research, so as not to clog up the others. methotrexate is near/dear to my story. it was the drug my rheumy was pushing on me. thusly, i did quite a bit of research on it back when i was searching for answers. it fascinated me that methotrexate makes major changes to the bacteria in the gut. i theorize that this is one of the mechanisms that drives the results, both good and bad. further research has not disproved the theory (yet).

it also provided a clue to my eventual solution -- modifying the bacteria mix as part of the answer.

people with ibd symptoms, imo should attack sibo and leaky gut first. then move onto probiotics/prebiotics while staying with the leaky gut protocols, forever.

i have no qualifications to speak of. but i have put in thousands of hours of self taught learning, trying to piece it all together. good luck finding another person in your life that has taken that on, and that includes the agents of big medical. personally, i have never met a person that knows a decent amount about this stuff. it's flying under the radar, but not under the radar of the drug companies. they are doing all kinds of trials, etc. the future is bright! i choose not to wait on them, it will be years...

my work here represents a small piece of what i've learned. i could go on about other diseases/health issues, but am keeping it focused on ibd here. i was working on connective tissue when i stumbled onto this forum, a deep DEEP dive that i think has yielded impressive results. connective tissue doesnt get near the attention it deserves -- it's all over the body - joints, organ liners, heart valves, much more.

tying this in to ibd -- general connective tissue rebuilding foods/supplements dont only help the joints, they also help with leaky gut and a myriad of other things. my joints took a lot of damage with one of my autoimmunes, and they have come roaring back with connective tissue rebuilding protocols. they say your cant regrow cartilage/ct.......i beg to differ.

question for you -- have these topics been widely discussed on this forum before i got here? i feel like i'm presenting new stuff - am i wrong? has the forum learned how to reverse sibo, leaky gut, dysbiosis before i got here? if so, please share what you learned - so i can learn it too. thanks.

 

[my little penguin]

What your suggesting sibo “leaky gut” slippery elm ,etc…have all been on and off the forums for years . I have been here for 13 years.
It is not new.

In crohns patients they don’t work a large percentage of the time and do more harm than good -
In IBS patients- irritable bowel patients -leaky gut sometimes works as does fodmaps diet

This forum is for crohns and ulcerative colitis patients /caregivers to receive support on questions they have navigating the world .
It is not anti main stream medicine forum or anti pharmacy forum .
Its support specific to crohns and ulcerative colitis .

It is not a leaky gut forum .

your studies are numerous and all stating the same thing.

 

[Bufford]

Given that there are no cures for Chrons and IBS I welcome any kind of input. At times some remedies seem controversial, but these sometimes open up new ways of treatment. This place is an open forum, and if anyone wishes to avoid topics presented here they are welcome to ignore them. I have live a lifetime of coping with this scourge, so I am open to anybody's idea of how to better manage the disease. I failed many standard treatments, notably biologics to the point I respect the miseries of the side effects that can go very wrong, yet for some these treatments are like a cure. I welcome Cheka's inputs and ideas here, sometimes big things can come out of small ideas. Lets keep an open mind folks. Maybe one day the key will be found for a cure, but we must have an open mind on the subject and be patient.

 

[Jo-mom]

@Bufford - I agree we should keep an open mind. This is not really about that. I read through the forum each day, and lately, it's becoming a challenge as it' become a little unbalanced.

 

[cheka]

@Bufford - I agree we should keep an open mind. This is not really about that. I read through the forum each day, and lately, it's becoming a challenge as it' become a little unbalanced.

imo it appears that i am dominating, but is that not because of a lack of activity from other posters? reading some of the old threads, it appears the board used to have a lot more activity and active members. i've seen that fade in other forums too. is it because the hive think gets trite and people move on?

the community here is an EXCELLENT resource that i've already recommended to a young lady family friend that is fighting crohns. you guys know everything there is to know about the medical system and how to navigate it with ibd symptoms. you have no doubt helped countless people that make their way here looking for answers. i want to thank you and want to recognize that you are doing God's work. bless you for that.

however, the big medical view of health is not the only view - even though they prefer to act like it is. i'm sharing naturopathic type strategies for people to consider. we are on the same team working toward the same goal.

 

[Bufford]

My firm belief is that big pharma and modern western medicine needs to have a more open mind on new treatments and the way they are going about handling the scourge, including others like cancer. Clearly the route they are taking now is very narrow, for its time to take the blinders off and look at the issue from a broader point of view. Clearly, biologics are not the answer, my experience with them only puts fear into me and I am very apprehensive of the top down aproach of treatment that can create various side effects worse than the scourge. One does not need a nuclear bomb to control the scourge when a squirrel gun will do fine.
We are all different, a one size fits all approach does not work well, but will only help some. Clearly we need new ideas to find a cure, and that takes input at times tedious, some of which some will find controversial.

 

[cheka]

My firm belief is that big pharma and modern western medicine needs to have a more open mind on new treatments and the way they are going about handling the scourge, including others like cancer. Clearly the route they are taking now is very narrow, for its time to take the blinders off and look at the issue from a broader point of view. Clearly, biologics are not the answer, my experience with them only puts fear into me and I am very apprehensive of the top down aproach of treatment that can create various side effects worse than the scourge. One does not need a nuclear bomb to control the scourge when a squirrel gun will do fine.
We are all different, a one size fits all approach does not work well, but will only help some. Clearly we need new ideas to find a cure, and that takes input at times tedious, some of which some will find controversial.

well said. my 2 zinc cents:

the medical industry has it's strengths and weaknesses. it's strengths are emergency/life saving and surgeries, and that's about it. i probably left something out......oh yeah, some of the testing is pretty cool

their biggest weakness, and it's huge, is treating chronic degenerative diseases. this is where the naturopathic view routs them.

big medical view on the body -- it's dumb, it does dumb stuff, we have to block it from doing dumb stuff. not very interested in root cause.

naturopathic view on the body -- it's smart, it heals itself all the time, give it the right stuff and get out of it's way. find the root cause and work from there

best imo to include both of them in our lives. i fall on the side of too little medical -- and that cost me a lot of pain and joint damage.

 

[cheka]

https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/msystems.00188-17
We found that imbalanced microbial diversity and reduced Clostridiales abundance in CD patients were restored in patients who responded to infliximab treatment. Moreover, the use of the gut microbiota, alone or together with calprotectin and CDAI data, enabled more-effective prediction of infliximab treatment outcomes, although more samples are needed to confirm and improve this model before it can serve in clinical practice.

 

[cheka]

finding that the popular ibd drugs work by modifying dysbiotic microbiomes. changed the title of this thread to reflect that. this is great news!

we can possibly use the drugs to get a jump start on building a legitimate healthy microbiome. when the microbiome is fixed, dump the drugs.

i'm ashamed i just stumbled onto this. it puts us all (the drug user, the natural healer, the pharma companies) on the same path, working together on correcting the same root cause of ibd symptoms - gut dysbiosis

we are still in the early innings of getting our arms around microbiome/disease - but the future is bright!

 

[cheka]

researchers conclude that plant diet (prebiotics) helps dysbiosis drug outcomes

https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(20)30231-6/pdf
How to Optimize Effects of
Infliximab in Inflammatory
Bowel Disease: Incorporation
of a Plant-Based Diet


We recognize that a westernized diet is a ubiquitous envi-
ronmental factor in IBD.7 We designed the PBD to counter
westernized diets. Although our studies were uncontrolled and
small sized, we achieved far better induction and relapse rates
in both CD and ulcerative colitis by incorporating the PBD than
current standard treatment.8 Based on our experience with the
PBD for IBD and the rationale of the pathogenesis of IBD, we
recommend PBD for IBD.8 A shortage of dietary fiber is
extrapolated during not only the inductive active phase but also
in the quiescent phase of IBD.

Decreased consumption of dietary fiber is one of the char-
acteristics of a westernized diet in affluent societies, and an
inverse relation between dietary fiber intake and risk of CD was
shown in a prospective cohort study.

 

[cheka]

https://rmdopen.bmj.com/content/7/3/e001755
Intestinal microbiota changes induced by TNF-inhibitors in IBD-related spondyloarthritis

Conclusions Our findings are consistent with the hypothesis that TNFi therapy tends to restore the intestinal eubiosis.

 

[cheka]

fda approvals for methotrexate -- what do we find? a list of diseases with dysbiosis as the root cause

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2020/040054s015,s016,s017.pdf

 

[J100]

What your suggesting sibo “leaky gut” slippery elm ,etc…have all been on and off the forums for years . I have been here for 13 years.
It is not new.

In crohns patients they don’t work a large percentage of the time and do more harm than good -
In IBS patients- irritable bowel patients -leaky gut sometimes works as does fodmaps diet

This forum is for crohns and ulcerative colitis patients /caregivers to receive support on questions they have navigating the world .
It is not anti main stream medicine forum or anti pharmacy forum .
Its support specific to crohns and ulcerative colitis .

It is not a leaky gut forum .

your studies are numerous and all stating the same thing.

I agree with @my little penguin . It seems that cheka is stating the same thing over and over again and in multiple threads. A lack of response from other members is making him feel that he is dominating. If this was so easy then by now the medical science would have cured Crohn's disease by now. Unfortunately, we are nowhere near it and it can do "more harm than good". A request to @cheka , please don't create multiple threads with the same message. We get what you are trying to state. And we agree to disagree till such time there is concrete evidence with Phase 1, 2 & 3 clinical trials providing conclusive evidence.

 

[onolox]

Before I had Crohn, I had a very low fiber diet. Now that I'm on stelara for 1.5 years I have a normal intestine again, and I have to eat a lot of fiber, otherwise I'm constipated, a lot.
What source of fiber this study says is the best?

 

[J100]

Before I had Crohn, I had a very low fiber diet. Now that I'm on stelara for 1.5 years I have a normal intestine again, and I have to eat a lot of fiber, otherwise I'm constipated, a lot.
What source of fiber this study says is the best?

You can always consult a dietitian who can provide customised advice specific to you.

 

[onolox]

If I wanted a dietician I go there, but I want an tip from someone here.

 

[asadmom]

If I wanted a dietician I go there, but I want an tip from someone here.

I find kiwi and magnesium supplement helpful for my son.

 

[Jo-mom]

Hi soluable fibre is usually the safest bet. Some examples of soluable fibre are bananas, rolled oats, beans, citrus fruits. Soluable fibre works differently as it promotes movement by increasing stool bulk, so it's benenficial for both constipation or the opposite. You should always drink enough fluids too.

 

[Maya142]

Yes, @cheka we have heard your ideas on EVERY thread. "Leaky gut" is not new. Doctors call it "intestinal permeability." And actually, there are doctors in the traditional medical world who are researching it. And there are doctors in the traditional medical world researching diets like the CDED and IBD AID and looking at things like emulsifiers in food which can cause flares. BUT, at the same time, medications are VERY important to prevent surgery and long term damage. Medications including MTX and biologics! Yes, biologics are more effective but patients can also form antibodies to them, so MTX can be very important for some patients.

Please do not bombard every single thread with your own personal research on "bugs" when you don't even have an IBD diagnosis and therefore cannot possibly have controlled your IBD.