Next steps. Remicade, humira or ng tube

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Dr thinks son is not growing enough and gave us three options to consider. Remicade, Humira or an ng tube....Oy.

My son said it's like playing the game 'would you rather' where they give you two horrible options and you have to pick one.

Leaning towards remicade. Currently on Pentasa and 12.5 years old...68 pounds and 53.5 inches tall...
 
I wouldn't think an ng tube would be good long term without food
Supplmental formula does help a lot with other meds

Ds has done Humira and remicade
Remicade is much easier on the kiddo ( movies , day off school , pampered by nurses etc..)
You can adjust the dose for weight increases
Not painful other than iv stick -easy
Blood draws at infusions so less travel time


Humira -you have to give the burning injections not fun as a kid
Longer time to get therapuetic 3-6 months
Doses only two to chose from so when you gain or grow less meds .

We added formula ( peptamen jr ) to both to help with grow/weight
At age 11 he is 88 lbs and 58 inches so Both meds plus formula worked really well for Ds
Good luck
 
What type of doctor said this? If you haven't seen an endocrinologist yet, you may want to, just for peace of mind before making a decision. Our GI thinks DS is too small, but his endo said he's fine.

Is he not growing because of not absorbing, a GI issue? Or maybe just a late bloomer? When did you and his dad start puberty?

That being said, once DS started Remicade he's grown like crazy. I can't directly say it's due to Remicade because he was also 13 at the time and due for puberty to kick in. We chose Remicade over Humira because of the needle and pain factor. I dread the day we have to switch.
 
My daughter has been on both Humira and Remicade (several times!) and definitely prefers the Remicade. The infusions are actually kind of relaxing - she loves the chance to relax and watch tv and miss school! It's also just one stick every 4 to 8 weeks depending on how often you have to go (and our GI does bloodwork at infusions so we don't have to go to lab separately for it).

Humira, like MLP said, is a very painful injection. My daughter understood the need for it but hated the shots. She said every time she was surprised how much it hurt.

We also have done the NG tube for weight gain (supplemental EN). My daughter was VERY against it for about a year but finally lost so much weight that her GI insisted. The first night was uncomfortable but she got used to it very quickly and now she says she much prefers to drinking Peptamen Jr. She inserts the tube every night and takes it out in the morning, so no one at school has to know.
 
Haven't gone the Humira route and didn't do the NG tube as my son drank them orally but although it helped with weight gain, he went from 75 pounds to 103 pounds on EN but once he stopped dropped down to 90 pounds and only gained an inch in height. It wasn't until we started remicade that growth took off and has gained 30 pounds and grown 6 inches in the last year, but I agree with Mehita a visit with an endo wouldn't hurt. For us it came down to disease activity and once that was under control the growth took off
 
Thanks. We've been to the endo...they ran a ton of tests and always came up empty. Then, a year later we got the crohns dx. Is crohns the cause of lack of growth? Nobody really knows....endo always thought it was just late blooming. His crohns was described to us as mild, he has no symptoms other than occasional mouth sores and poor growth. I don't know. My husband is planning on placing a call to our endo to talk to him about remicade before we make a final decision.
 
Oh I am sorry, I see that was in your original post.

Sounds like his GI is thinking there is still inflammation that is interfering with his growth and that sounds logical to me especially given the lack of any endo issues. How are his inflammation markers (CRP Sed rate, fecal calprotectin)? If those are even indicative for him of disease activity.

Asymptomatic disease is hard. How do you know if the therapy is working?

My daughter was on Remicade and it wasn't working all the way. We added a course of EEN and that got her to remission and then the Remicade took over from there and maintained the remission for quite a while. Once she was fully healed (a year) the real growing and gaining occurred as did puberty. You could try adding a course of EEN if the drugs scare you.
 
Personally - I wouldn't wait on the Remicade
Pentasa is not known to fix much of anything for crohns .
My kiddo has normal bloods and visually normal scopes but still had inflammation simmering microscopically . When were his last scopes /pill cam /mre?
Our Gi does those when changing a med so we know where we started and later if there's worked ....kwim
I know jmrogers4 and clash both had few symptoms but simmering inflammation was still there affecting growth .

Good luck
 
Personally - I wouldn't wait on the Remicade
Pentasa is not known to fix much of anything for crohns .
My kiddo has normal bloods and visually normal scopes but still had inflammation simmering microscopically . When were his last scopes /pill cam /mre?
Our Gi does those when changing a med so we know where we started and later if there's worked ....kwim
I know jmrogers4 and clash both had few symptoms but simmering inflammation was still there affecting growth .

Good luck

His last and only scopes were around October this year. The dr. Thinks there is inflammation going on that we can't really 'see'. His rec was the remicade although he's leaving final decision to us, obviously....
 
Oh I am sorry, I see that was in your original post.

Sounds like his GI is thinking there is still inflammation that is interfering with his growth and that sounds logical to me especially given the lack of any endo issues. How are his inflammation markers (CRP Sed rate, fecal calprotectin)? If those are even indicative for him of disease activity.

Asymptomatic disease is hard. How do you know if the therapy is working?

My daughter was on Remicade and it wasn't working all the way. We added a course of EEN and that got her to remission and then the Remicade took over from there and maintained the remission for quite a while. Once she was fully healed (a year) the real growing and gaining occurred as did puberty. You could try adding a course of EEN if the drugs scare you.

His blood work was done 6 weeks ago and showed improvement, but still the markers were higher than normal. At that appt, he said give it time, it can take a while, plus at that appt he had gained 2 lbs, so we continued with the Pentasa. yesterday, 6 weeks after previous appt, he had gained 1 lb, dr was hoping for more....so now he thinks it's time to step up the treatment...
 
Yeah, the EEN route can delay you several more months. Two months to do the full course and then another month or so to see if he gains/grows etc. Even then, there is no guarantee the further out you get that the inflammation won't creep back in and with an asymptomatic kiddo that can delay you even more months.

Sorry to muddy the water even more!

FWIW - my daughter on Remicade is doing extremely well. My younger one is being scoped tomorrow and if they find Crohns even if mild with her being asymptomatic the doc has warned me that his recommendation will probably be biologics. He said, when asymptomatic he wants to treat with the drug wit the highest success rate because otherwise you have nothing else to go on and can leave a child undertreated for many months.
 
Before I put my daughter on biologics, I agonized for days (months?) about whether she really needed them and all the horrible side effects. Ultimately my husband and I decided for her quality of life she really needed to be on them. I can honestly say we have never regretted that decision for a single second.

She's never had side effects from any of the biologics, besides being a bit tired the day after her Remicade infusions. No increased infections or anything like that. And the difference has been remarkable.

The decision is so hard to make but now I'm just so thankful that these drugs exist for our kids.
 
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. DS is 11.5 and is barely 60lbs. He also has no outward symptoms other than no weight gain. We've been doing LDN and special diet for about 8 months and while he has gained a bit, his calprotectin hasn't gone below 200. The GI gave us until March to see where we are but I have a feeling if things are not greatly improved, we'll be heading towards Remicade. It is terrifying but at the same time, I feel like I've learned so much on this forum. I only hope that if he does start Remicade we have some of the same success stories as some of the people on here.

Good luck to you and please keep us posted.
 
Isn't there anything else? I don't know much about LDN, how effective is it usually and when do drs usually prescribe it? Our GI did not mention it. He does not typically prescribe the 6mps, methotrexate, etc because he feels that brings more risk than benefit....I really just don't know. I hate this. So much. But I appreciate all you advice and support. I know you can all relate. Is humira any safer cancer wise than remicade?
 
Cancer risks are extremely small
Even smaller if you have never taken an immunosuppresant .
Remicade and Humira are about equal

Numbers that help me sleep.

Risk of dying in the US kids under 14.
In a car 1 in 250
Drowning 1 in 1000
Average person on the street without Ibd of tcell lymphoma - 2 in 10000

Person taking both immunosuppresants ( either in combo or any time before biologics ) plus biologics - 6 in 10000.

My point you take risks everyday to give your kiddo a better quality of life without thinking about them ( no one is pointing it out either ;) )

All drugs have risks and side effects including deadly ones ( infant tylenol any one -Steven johnsons syndrome ( death ) , liver damage etc..)

As far as LDN most studies in kids so far showed it gives a small bump but that's it.
That said we chose not to go that route - it slows seratonin ( which regulates mood , sleep , other functions etc...) in the brain so the body makes a ton then it releases it.

I didn't like messing with a growing developing brain unless I had too.

Jmrogers tried it but her kiddo still didn't griw or gain and needed remicade .

6-mp/Aza have the higher cancer rating all by themselves .
 
http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=43002
Tons of papers above

Plus this one


As of 23 February 2010, 6,273 CD patients (infliximab during registry=3,420 (during or within 1 year before registry=3,764); other-treatments-only: 2,509), were enrolled and, on average, had been followed for 5.2/7.6 years, respectively, for all/currently active patients. Crude cancer incidences were similar between infliximab- and other-treatments-only-exposed patients. Multivariate Cox regression analysis demonstrated that baseline age (hazard ratio (HR)=1.59/10 years; P<0.001), disease duration (HR=1.64/10 years; P=0.012), and smoking (HR=1.38; P=0.045) but neither immunosuppressive therapy alone (HR=1.43; P=0.11), infliximab therapy alone (HR=0.59; P=0.16), nor their combination (HR=1.22, P=0.34) were independently associated with the risk of malignancy. When compared with the general population, no significant increase in incidence was observed in any malignancy category. In an exposure-based analysis, use of immunosuppressants alone (odds ratio=4.19) or in combination with infliximab (3.33) seemed to be associated with a numerically, but not significantly, greater risk of malignancy than did treatment with infliximab alone (1.96) relative to treatment with neither.

CONCLUSIONS:

In the TREAT Registry, age, disease duration, and smoking were independently associated with increased risk of malignancy. Although results for immunosuppressant use were equivocal, no significant association between malignancy and infliximab was observed.


From
http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v109/n2/full/ajg2013441a.html
 
A lot of good advice above. It helped me to read the research papers when making our decision about biologics.

We tried EEN (orally, no tube) and did two 6 week courses with no other food. It really did help the labs. Our daughter is mostly asymptomatic to begin with but there are some signs.

I was prepared to continue using EEN with no meds, however the issue for us was that each time we finished a course and reintroduced food, no matter what well chosen food, she would bleed within two weeks. Just enough to tell us that the Crohn's was simmering.

Our infusion center is a very long distance away, so we chose Humira. The nurse at our family doctor's clinic did our injections - so I could just be in the comfort role and not agonize over how/what to do.

She handled the first set ok. No problems.

We are still using enteral nutrition partially, between 50%-75% depending on the day as I did see a paper that suggested it improved success rates on biologics.

I also agonized about the cancer risk, but I agonize over surgery too. Surgery rates for Crohn's are so high that I wanted to give her colon a fighting chance.
 
Isn't there anything else? I don't know much about LDN, how effective is it usually and when do drs usually prescribe it? Our GI did not mention it. He does not typically prescribe the 6mps, methotrexate, etc because he feels that brings more risk than benefit....I really just don't know. I hate this. So much. But I appreciate all you advice and support. I know you can all relate. Is humira any safer cancer wise than remicade?

Most GI's won't mention LDN because they don't believe in it. I can't say for sure how effective it is because every person is different. We had to go to an alternative doctor to get our prescription. I think it has made some difference for my son but is it enough? Probably not. Thus our retest in March. Our GI would not prescribe it but was open to us using it provided we still saw her for testing and provided that we in turn be open to hearing the it's time for meds talk.

Our GI also mentioned Entyvio at the last visit as she said they were hearing great things about it, it is specifically for Crohn's, far less side effects than any of the other meds, etc. but we didn't go into specifics. I know just from perusing this board (I think in the treatment section) it is very expensive so I don't know that many insurance companies would approve starting off with such an expensive med but maybe worth asking your doctor about?

As far as 6mp, I know others have used it successfully. Our second opinion doctor that was supposedly one of the front runners in the research of 6mp said he would not prescribe it to tween/teen boys because of the risk (although small as mentioned above, he didn't feel comfortable doing it) and our current GI said they hardly use it anymore. Now of course that is probably more financially based as I'm sure the biologics are far, far more expensive and the kickbacks much more lucrative but that is probably a post of a different variety ;)
 
Yes MLP is correct we did LDN for about 18 months and while he did well on it. It took a long time to get there 8-9 months but he never really had an appetite while on it and I had read somewhere but darned if I can find it now that LDN can decrease appetite. We added supplemental EN and he gained weight quickly. In the end it wasn't enough to keep him in remission, cellulitis infection lead to c-diff which lead to flare and we were really just running out of time in regards to growth. So after a year as of Jan. 9th on remicade, the growth, appetite are astronomical. It went from reminding him that he needed to eat since he just never felt hungry he would go all day without eating unless we told him to eat to eating me out of house and home and has a "normal teenage boy" appetite.
 
My son did exclusive EN to induce remission and it did induce 'clinical' remission (no outward symptoms). His only maintenance treatment for the next 18+ months was supplemental EN (thru NG) and, while this seemed to 'control' his crohns, he never achieved biochemical remission (remission with no simmering inflammation). Upon transfer to his adult GI, the new GI was adamant that remicade or humira was needed to avoid permanent damage.

It was a tough decision (and I very much wanted to try LDN as well) because he looked and felt great. :ywow: GI wouldn't agree to LDN because of lack of studies and he felt my son would be risking damage while trying LDN. While I absolutely hated the thought of adding such a strong med while he looked so well, my son was concerned about the risks of not adding the med so, at his age (18), I supported his decision to begin remicade. It's been almost two years now (time flies! :eek:) and, so far, so good! He's had no problems with remicade and follow-up MREs have shown significant improvement. His CRP, ESR and HGB have all improved and are within normal ranges.

My son finds the infusion to be easy - he reads, sleeps, takes his ipad, etc. The only downside to remicade is the scheduling. From my perspective, it's a minor inconvenience given that it keeps him healthy... but my son, at times, finds it frustrating when the schedule interferes with school or other commitments. :( However, I'm not sure that he would find giving himself a painful needle every couple of weeks necessarily an improvement! I suppose you and your son have to consider your lifestyle and how comfortable your son will be with scheduling or with the pain from humira shots??

My son's GI preferred remicade. His reasons were only that he had better control over dosage/compliance (no forgetting to have shot, no errors in injection of serum, etc.) and that bloodwork would be regular/convenient.

However, I do strongly encourage you to include supplemental EN as part of his treatment. I really do feel that the nutrition my son received from the formula (5 nights per week) helped keep him healthy. From the time he was diagnosed, until beginning remicade (2.5 years), he gained 50 lbs (all healthy, muscular weight) and grew another inch or two (he was already 5'10" when diagnosed). Using the NG tube allowed him to insert the tube each evening (and remove in the morning), run the formula while sleeping and not think about it at all during the day. When he left for university, he didn't want to continue with the tube, etc. (and he had already been on remicade for approx. 6 months) but he continues to drink 1 or 2 Boost shakes each day (and, when he's home, I have seen that they really have become part of his daily diet). It certainly lessens my worries about his diet, knowing that he's getting some nutrition daily. :)
 
We also tried LDN. We had remission for two years on it but it stopped working unfortunately.
These decisions are tough but drugs like Pentasa really don't help CROHN'S disease. Some doctors say It is kind of like trying to treat a brain tumor with an aspirin.
It is a hard decision to make but simmering untreated inflammation can have serious long term consequences as well.
There are many remicade success stories on our board here and some humira ones as well. Some kids have a tougher time with humira because the shot burns as it is going in.
Other kids would rather try it and not have an IV. But whichever you decide to go with remember as MLP said the risks are small.
 
Thanks all, we placed a call to our GI to tell him we will start the remicade. I hope it works, I hope my son grows, I hope he feels good and I hope there are no serious adverse side effects. I'm praying....I'm so nervous about this.
 
Hugs
Btdt in tears to start remicade
Then in tears when Ds had to stop

Wishing you calming thoughts
And peaceful bliss of only thinking of crohns every 6-8 weeks
 
Hugs to you Worried mama. :ghug:

There is nothing harder in this world than having to make these sort of decisions on behalf of those we love so very dearly, it is heart wrenching and heart breaking.

As mlp has said, you have tears when you have to make the decision and tears if and when you stop.
My daughter was diagnosed on the operating table so we never went through a lot decisions with her. I use to often think..I wonder what her life would be like if she had had the opportunity to go down the medication path at the outset. Then my son was diagnosed and we had that chance. I hated the thought of Pred and Imuran but away we went and after 6 weeks if there weren’t clear signs of progress we would move to Humira. With that I found myself wishing that the Pred and Imuran worked as I hated the Humira! As it was they didn’t work and surgery was our only option, then I wished we could have Humira or Remicade! Talk about a roller coaster! :lol:

What I am trying to say in a very convoluted way mum is that you are not alone and we are for you. :heart:

In my thoughts and Good Luck!

Dusty. xxx
 
:ghug:

Welcome to the IV League! It gets easier! Especially when it works! Lots of healing and growing thoughts your way. Be patient. It can take awhile.
 
Good luck!! Hoping Remicade will be his miracle.
I bet your son will grow to not mind (maybe even enjoy) his infusions - the nurses really do pamper the kids. My daughter really likes the day off from school and watching TV or reading for a couple hours.
 

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