Opinions on the "Occupy" movement?

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David

David

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I'm curious what everyone thinks of the Occupy Wallstreet and its solidarity movements. And has anyone here not heard of it at this point?
 
Personally, I live in Madison WI, which is a place where many people have been protesting one thing or another for many months now (since February!). Our governor decided to strip unions of their bargaining rights (essentially making them powerless) and there were protests here for months over that. I had fairly strong feelings about all this back when the protests first started, but frankly now I'm burned out on this stuff! It's been months that the protesters have given to their cause and nothing's changed. I don't see it effecting any kind of change. It's just gone on too long. There's been talk in the local news that these "occupy" protests are going to happen in Madison now. Enough already! I can't take any more protesters in my city!
 
I don't know anything about it... but I am guessing I would support it in theory if I did.
 
I have heard, and although we don't have anything like that going on in Canada so far, it kind of makes me think of all the protesters in the 60's. Those people did try and change the world - at least until they became the very authority they were protesting against!! Will see if it has any affect on the greed that has overtaken society.
 
Cat-a-Tonic, my sister in law was part of the protests last February, as she is a speech pathologist and lost her collective bargaining rights.

We now have the "Occupy" movement here in Minneapolis. I think it is nice to bring to light that the banking industry received hundreds of millions of dollars of federal bail out money, and no one went to jail and executives still get 8 or 9 digit bonuses. Nothing changes except now banks want to charge you to use your own money.

But the movement itself hasn't made any of its goals clear, if it even has any goals.
 
I'm checking out it tomorrow. a lecture about global warming summit. I will let you know. I wish I could go more but must work, need health insurance. Also can't risk getting arrested (see reason 1). I will let you know what it's like.
 
I have been following it for a couple of weeks now. I am amazed that there are now over 10,000 people there! I hope it is the beginning of a Revolution. It is overdue.

I worked myself into disability.. Pushing past my limits to bring home the bacon. Not getting a raise in over two years, only to have my workload increased, to increase revenue, to increase stock value, to increase the CEO's Bonus... Not that he earned his money in the first place... The company had a "Good ol' boys" way of doing business.

I would like to see something good come from this, like universal healthcare, fair taxation, especially from the businesses that use off shore labor, and business addresses, in an effort to dodge the tax man.

Maybe a remittance of payment for TARP?? That may be asking too much.
 
at Zuccotti Park it whole seems more coherent then it is portrait. it is all about the bail out and how wall street got help but no one else did. All other message are all the consequences that happened from that.

by the time i got there it was rather late and most activities were rapping up but it very well organized food, clothing, first aid, legal, a library, sign making, sleeping, recycling/ garbage. mainly 20-30 but some older and a few kids with their parents. it's not even a full sq city block but it was packed. i'm definitely going back durning the day when they have more programs
 
Linda, I'm sorry to hear about your sister-in-law. I've got several friends & acquaintances who also lost their collective bargaining rights - including one teacher. I feel particularly bad for the teachers, who don't make a lot of money anyway and now will get fewer raises and will have to pay more towards their health insurance, etc. I was originally really upset at what our governor was doing, but now I'm just sick and tired of it all. Of course our governor will likely be up for recall soon so I'll probably get a little bit fired up about that, ha ha.

Speaking of protesters, the Westboro Baptist church people were in my city on Saturday. Protesting a gay minister or something like that? I was horrified to see those awful people here - I'll take the collective bargaining protesters over Westboro any day!
 
I support anyone's right to free speech, whether I agree with them or not isn't really important. Everyone should be able to hear them out and decide for themselves what they believe.

Of course, I don't think people should spout hate speech and call it free speech, either; you can make your point without being hateful and disrespecting others.
 
Cat-a-Tonic said:
Speaking of protesters, the Westboro Baptist church people were in my city on Saturday. Protesting a gay minister or something like that? I was horrified to see those awful people here - I'll take the collective bargaining protesters over Westboro any day!
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I think those Westboro "church" people are abhorrent.
 
Last I heard, the Westboro "church" folks were gearing up to protest Steve Jobs funeral. I'm not sure that the Westboro congregation understand irony since they put the message out to protest the funeral via their iPhone. Hee. :)

And I completely agree with you, LindaS.

Kismet
 
glum chump said:
Last I heard, the Westboro "church" folks were gearing up to protest Steve Jobs funeral. I'm not sure that the Westboro congregation understand irony since they put the message out to protest the funeral via their iPhone. Hee. :)
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I heard this earlier this week......it was a great chuckle
 
I think it's a great idea, but people are too stupid to get it right. The police aren't the enemies. They're just as underpaid, and poor as all of us. We aren't in Libya, where the military force is supporting the tyranny. We're in North America. Policemen are probably just as pissed about the ridiculous rich/poor disparity as non-law-enforcement are.

Unfortunately, it will not likely go anywhere. America is capitalist. Therefore, there will always be the rich, who get whatever they want, and those below them.

My vote? Blow up the world. All of it. People are terrible, and ridiculous, and haven't really done anything to deserve what we have. Especially because 90% of us are just wasting away, doing nothing.

As to the Westboro guys: I hope someone kills them. I really do. I mean, I know that sounds violent and all. But, it'd be better for everyone if they just fell into a hole. And that isn't at all because I'm gay.

/hate rant. :)
 
I'm on the West coast (CA) and I haven't heard of the Westboro Church or what they represent, but protesting any funeral is horrible!
 
Update:OMG I just saw some news items on Yahoo-and did you see the name of their web address????? That's sick! No place for such hatred in this world.
 
Nchuleftingth said:
Absolutely. And while I'm not fond of preaching, it isn't very Christ-like.
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Can someone tell me why they protest military funerals?? REALLY!?!? These are the people who are fighting for your right to protest and your protesting their funerals...sick sick people

and why are they protesting steve jobs?
 
There's an explanation given on Wikipedia but I'm afraid I've lost several thousand brain cells just reading it. Basically they're a hate group made up primarily of one fanatical family.
 
Here is a Westboro member, and a protester of them. (Please don't ban me!)

Untitled2-1.png


They are horrible people, who really don't have big numbers, just big press...
 
Oh......I have seen programs about them here. Yeah they hate us too......bloody nutters. :voodoo:
 
I am involved in Occupy Fort Myers. Last meeting was 150 people or so. We have a march this Saturday. Have a feeling it might be a few hundred by then. I support the cause, reasons, etc. As we say... We are the 99%! :D And my favorite reason to explain to people is that I'm here becuase I can't afford a lobbyist!

Regarding Westboro... I stand with Foo Fighters... http://youtu.be/6e5hRLbCaCs I think this is awesome!

:heart: all of you!
 
Foo Fighters - Hot Buns

This is the video if you need backstory info.

It is the UNCENSORED version, sorry! Well, not really, but yea. So my hands are clean... :D Watch at your own risk! lol
 
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Well it would seem the movement has arrived in Oz. Starting tomorrow there will be protest sit ins in Melbourne and Sydney.

I guess the thing that was apparent, well from my perspective, in the news article was the representatives of big business not getting the point when it pertains to what the organisers were talking about. The organisers were focusing on the distribution of wealth whilst big business were touting that Oz is in the best economic shape of any OECD country and there was nothing to protest about...hmmmmm...hardly surprising or unexpected.

Dusty. :)
 
For me, a big issue with this is the idiocy of the protesters. They're mostly bored college kids with liberal arts degrees, angry because they didn't work hard, and thus make no money. Not to offend any arts students.

But the population in need isn't being represented by the ones in need. And I think this is why very few people are listening. I mean, how many times did you talk against your parents for something being "unfair"? I'm pretty sure this is the exact message we're sending by using a bunch of angry kids as our main voice.

Furthermore, it angers me that this is supposed to be a world-wide thing. For example, this link directs to an article talking about how the protests "facilitated illustrations of direct democracy and popular rebellion at a time of global crisis." and are "speaking to the dreams and demands of so many across the world."... It makes me angry that middle-class white people in America are acting as if they're the ones suffering the most. Sure, I support the cause. BUT, don't be an ignorant fool about it. There are people out there suffering much worse, so you certainly don't have the right to acclaim your speaking to "so many across the world" in a time of "global crisis"... There's been crisis in Africa for hundreds of years. And it has nothing to do with white hipsters not being able to afford both an iPod and MacBook.

If you want change, then you need to make change. Don't send your cardigan wearing, bean-hat toting philosophy students out to do it. And don't claim that you're suffering terribly, or that its some kind of global issue. Developed countries need change. But don't do it stupidly, and don't do it ignorantly.
 
Nchuleftingth - I don't think that's true. I don't think they are "mostly bored college kids" who aren't willing to earn what they want. I think the media is portraying them as such in order to convince people not to sympathize.

For example, on Fox News Herman Cain referring to the protestors said, "I want to work hard enough so I can buy a Cadillac, not take somebody else's," and that "part of it is jealousy." I think most people just want the opportunity to earn their own. Or even just earn a Hundai. Or finish paying off the car they purchased when they thought they had steady income. The rich people are trying to convince us to stop protesting/stop supporting the protestors because they like the status quo.

Here's a nice graph illustraing why the status "isn't quo":

ceo-pay-has-skyrocketed-300-since-1990-corporate-profits-have-doubled-average-production-worker-pay-has-increased-4-the-minimum-wage-has-dropped-all-numbers-adjusted-for-inflation-500x438.png


I think the reality is more people would earn the money if they could get the/a job. They interviewed the man leading the protests in Seattle and he said he has qualifications and there simply isn't any work. Many of the people are literally starving because they don't have the money for food. Yes things are worse in other parts of the world, but that doesn't mean things aren't bad here. That's like saying people with Crohn's can't complain because they don't have cancer. Probably there are many bored college students jumping on the movement because they have nothing else to do, but don't let them tarnish the people who have a real message who I'm sure would not turn anyone away.

"If you are not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." -(Unfortunately) Malcom X
 
The thing that frustrates me the most is that my government "bailed out" corporate companies whose problems were caused by their own poor decisions because they were "too big to fail." Their behavior hasn't changed. This was supposed to prevent us from being in the situation we are in now. Instead, families were left without jobs and lost their homes because it's fine if the people who PAID for those bailouts fail. The people who made the decisions got off scott free (and are repeating their mistakes) and the rest of us are paying the price (literally AND metaphorically). Nobody should think this is acceptable.
 
Frankly I'm not sure what it is they're hoping to accomplish, but the more I see/hear/read about it, the more I think it's nothing but a bunch of kids who think it sounds like fun to camp out in NYC and stand up for something, even though they don't know what the "something" is.

I read the transcript of an interview that was done with a long series of protesters. The interviewer was asking them all the same very simple questions. Not one response that I read was intelligent. People seemed to either have no clue why they were there (which was the majority), or they were in favor of some socialist/communist worldview where there were no rich people and no poor people; everybody got the same amount of money to live on (from the government, of course).

Ridiculous, in my opinion. They should all go home, take a shower, and then go look for a job. Instead they're camping out in a park that's owned by a millionaire Democrat, which is ironic but not surprising.
 
A tad off topic here but........

Since this seems to be about the demographic of the protesters I would just like to say that this would be the very thing that my daughter would attend. I can't comment on the situation of universities in the US but here it has reached a point that very few students can afford the luxury of participating in the type of rigorous political debate that occurred in the sixties and seventies on the university campus. Education is no longer free and most, my daughter included, study full time and hold down at least one part time job.

I love that my daughter is political, is aware, attends rallies and fights for what she believes in. I don't believe in many of the things she does, hmmmm...make that most :lol:, but she is young, passionate and driven and that's what counts. I have no doubt that most of the time it won't make a difference but she says she is out there trying to make difference and I guess that's the key isn't it...she is trying.

Dusty. :)
 
Thanks for your thoughts, Dusty. On the topic of age, half a dozen of my late 40s/early 50s friends who live in NY are often down at the protests for a couple of hours after work every day. From their emails, what I can glean is that there are a number of young people, but there are also a large contingent of older people (40+). There are groups like Grannies for Peace, loggers and fishermen from Alaska, people who have faced long term unemployment or underemployment, folks with disabilities, etc.

The faces on the website We Are the 99% (
http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/page/3) shows a range of people from many walks of life. They all seem to have a pretty good handle on how their lives connect to corporate greed/excesses.
 
Am going to stick with the thread lead on this one..:lol:
Ithink they are right to protest. the main stream media has ignored them for to long. Over 700 people were arrested on Broklyn bridge recently and not a word in the media. If that had of happened in Cairo the media would have been all over the story like a rash...

We have something similar going on here in Dublin now...
Good luck to them I say...
 
The faces on the website We Are the 99%
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Oh my, so many sad stories. :(

We have rigorous political debate in our home, :) , my husband is conservative and I am a swinging voter with tendencies to the left but the one thing we both agree on is, there are certain socialist policies we embrace, the main one being universal health care. I see that as a concern raised in so many of the stories and I guess it scares me to think that if we didn't have it here what would happen to my children now and in the future.

Dusty. xxx
 
I think the Nobel winning economist, Joseph Stiglitz, had it right when he said we no longer have capitalism, we have a system where "we socialized losses and privatized gains". When these companies had problems, we (the US taxpayers) bailed them out and made sure these companies didn't fail. However, now that they are making profits again, we are not taxing them appropriately. And they are still "too big to fail". Corporate bosses are getting enormously ridiculously bonuses, and the remaining workers (who actually create the profit for the CEOs) are not getting any raises and are constantly scared they'll lose their job. When companies do hire, they only hire temp workers, so there are no benefits and there is no stability for the workers.

So many people who have lost jobs and can't get new ones are finding that they are being discriminated against in hiring because they are unemployed. These people weren't fired for wrongdoing, they were fired because the companies decided they would rather hire people in India or China to do the work.
 
I wrote a large ass story defending my arguement, but it was really long ass, so I just removed it.

I'll just shorten it to one paragraph:

Those who need to be represented are being represent by kids who want to revolt for the sake of revolution. Like what happened in Britain. Furthermore, though people absolutely do have a reason to whine, they have no reason to equate it to a "world" issue. This would be like equating terminal cancer to Crohn's... Entirely ignorant.

/two cents. :smile:
 
Nchuleftingth said:
Those who need to be represented are being represent by kids who want to revolt for the sake of revolution.
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I agree with this. A majority of the protesters are disgruntled young adults and the unemployed (and I know unemployment is high right now, but there is also a subset of people who are unemployed because they simply are not good workers - and I think they are all at Zucotti Park). I surmise that there are only a few who actually have a clear idea of what they are protesting against and what they hope to achieve.
 
I don't know who is protesting in NY, but here in Minneapolis, all the protesters shown on the news are not kids, but people in their late 20s and early 30s with a few older people as well. Almost every protester interviewed on the news has a college degree but no job. And not because they are lazy, but because the jobs just aren't there.
 
LindaS said:
I don't know who is protesting in NY, but here in Minneapolis, all the protesters shown on the news are not kids, but people in their late 20s and early 30s with a few older people as well. Almost every protester interviewed on the news has a college degree but no job. And not because they are lazy, but because the jobs just aren't there.
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There are definitely different populations of protesters across the U.S. with different agendas.
 
Most of the people shown on the news in Los Angeles are middle-aged people who have been out of work for a while. I know corporate greed has played a huge factor.

I understand people need jobs, so why don't some of these white collar workers get training in a field where there are jobs? Plenty of people laugh at my husband being an electrician, but we've been fortunate that he always has work, even if it isn't great pay.

My aunt's husband was a $150,000 a year construction manager; when the housing market failed he continued to look for jobs in construction management. My husband got him an interview at a company that contracts with the LAUSD, and he wouldn't go because the pay was $75,000 a year.

Long story short, three years and a foreclosure later, he took a job at ITT Tech for $35,000 a year and all he talks about is how he wants to get back into construction management. When we suggested he get training in something else, my aunt and uncle thought we were crazy. Where is the logic in this?

The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior and expecting different results. People need to be adaptable to the present circumstances, and stop expecting everything to be like it used to be.

It'll be years before government and business straighten this mess out; so we have to do the best we can in the meantime.

My two cents added :)
 
LindaS said:
I don't know who is protesting in NY, but here in Minneapolis, all the protesters shown on the news are not kids, but people in their late 20s and early 30s with a few older people as well. Almost every protester interviewed on the news has a college degree but no job. And not because they are lazy, but because the jobs just aren't there.
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Yeah, I understand. But the whole occupy movement is founded on adbusters and 4chan. The whole idea started as a revolution for the sake of revolution. It was created by people who would revolt in a paradise, because paradise took away imperfection.

I know that there are people out there who are protesting because they need change. But they're protesting to the tune of the ones who started it: the half-degree hipsters, vomiting out whatever their high-school polisci class taught them. Hence the lack of general understanding amongst the protesters.

You said that they were mostly people without jobs, correct? And in what way will protesting against big corporations, with no actual specific agenda, further jobs? What exactly is being protested? Is it the taxes not being payed? Is it the ridiculous income of CEO's? The scandalous amounts of money paid to actors for looking pretty?

I don't mean to nitpick the lack of tact or thought put into Occupy, but it shows that on the ground, it is still an event started by adbusters, propagated by image boards, and generally not meant to amount to any specific thing other than "lets revolt, f*** the man and/or system, I know politics better than anyone in congress!"

I hope that didn't sound passionate or enflamed. I have a brother who is a sad hipster revolutionary, and therefore, feel the need to point out sad-hipster-revolutionarianism whenever I see it.
 
While I'm not part of the occupy movement, I can certainly understand their frustration. The last time we had this kind of wealth distribution, we ended up in the great depression. And while whoever started the movement might be relevant, look at the tea party. They started in similar fashion, and they created change by making the republican party go so far to the right that they make Nixon and Reagan look like the current democrats. I hope the Occupy movement can get the political debate more toward the center again.
 
Mountaingem said:
The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior and expecting different results.
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It's the definition of having one's frontal lobes knocked out, to be precise.

People need to be adaptable to the present circumstances, and stop expecting everything to be like it used to be.
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But I think this is a beautiful description of mentally healthy behaviour!



//off topic, apologies!
 
Nchuleftingth said:
Yeah, I understand. I strongly disagree...

I know that there are people out there who are protesting because they need change. But they're protesting to the tune of the ones who started it: the half-degree hipsters, vomiting out whatever their high-school polisci class taught them. Hence the lack of general understanding amongst the protesters. Maybe you should get out from behind your computer, adn go see those "hipsters" that are standing up for what they believe in!!!

I don't mean to nitpick the lack of tact or thought put into Occupy, but it shows that on the ground, it is still an event started by adbusters, propagated by image boards, and generally not meant to amount to any specific thing other than "lets revolt, f*** the man and/or system, I know politics better than anyone in congress!" Are you a member of MENSA??

I hope that didn't sound passionate or enflamed. I have a brother who is a sad hipster revolutionary, and therefore, feel the need to point out sad-hipster-revolutionarianism whenever I see it.
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How about some studying??? Might be more enlightening than FOX news, or wherever your getting your "facts"

:confused2::confused2::confused2:
 
Holy cow! :yfaint:

I also didn't realise that long service leave was peculiar to here.

Dusty. :)
 
This is obviously a complicated subject, which has different implications to people in different countries, but the best summary I can give is, if you are not protesting, then you do not understand what has happened and what will happen in the next few years.

The Occupy Wall Street movement is protesting about the right things, but probably in the wrong way. They need someone with intellectual credibility to step forward in the mainstream media and explain to the public in simple terms what has happened and what needs to be done next.

What is increasingly clear however, is that moral decay and the breakdown of the social contract over the last 20 years or so has allowed Wall Street and other large corporations to screw the general public and redistribute wealth to the few, while leaving the many with a lower standard of living, increased debts and reduced job and social security.

Those who attack the protesters as "anti-capitalist" have no credibility because what they are seeking to protect is not capitalism. What happened on Wall Street was not the result of uncontrolled capitalism, but uncontrolled fraud. That there are not many, many people in jail because of the sub-prime mortgage crisis, the securitization of that junk and the redistribution of the risk through CDO and CDS just shows how the big banks have the governments of the world in their pockets.

If you are interested in learning more, I would recommend reading Michael Lewis's The Big Short and Boomerang, the latter is essentially a collection of the articles he wrote for Vanity Fair which are available on line.
 
Slim Johnson said:
How about some studying??? Might be more enlightening than FOX news, or wherever your getting your "facts"

:confused2::confused2::confused2:
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Hahahaha... Very nice, insulting me ;)

I however, don't watch Fox news. I trollolo 4chan though, and steal my brother's copies of adbusters. I had the whole experience, I've seen the whole development. So please, if you want to argue, that'd be fun. But don't mock me.

Edit: I've not actually had the "whole" experience, as I'm not protesting, but it's more of a figurative "experience" than anything. I also retract my offer to argue. Arguing makes me feel icky in my gut. So, if you want look at it as if Occupy is some group of heroes fighting for the people, and being attacked by Fox news (lol), that is your prerogative, and I will not try to convince you otherwise.

:)

inb4 "we're all on the same team here guys"
 
The Michael Lewis books are quite enlightening.

I went to the protest that was held in my city yesterday. There was about 1000 people, which was pretty good for a small city. It was one of the largest protests this city has seen in over ten years. I talked to a group of men next to me, all in their 50s, and asked them why they were at the protest. They work in manufacturing, and the economy of the U.S. which is so tied to their work, threatens the viability of their work. A couple of women were there who worked in healthcare, and they'd just been asked to take a pay cut because their company wasn't making any profits.

Yes, the call to "Occupy" was galvanized by Adbusters---a magazine that is revered by hipsters and young(er) university students in the social sciences and humanities. But from what I'm seeing, they're not the only ones who are protesting. There is a message in rallying against the excesses and entitlements (and criminal behaviour) of Wall Street that has caught the spirit of a much larger group of people. This would not have been possible if the Occupy Wall Street movement had been an ideological battle that was reduced to "Political Science" sloganeering of "Kill Capitalism" or what have you.

We could argue that the Tea Party movement needs to be ignored since they were funded by multi-billionnaires who had their own agendas. However, like the "Occupy" movement, there was a vision that galvanized a lot of people. Whether or not I agree with the Tea Party or Occupy folks, neither movement can be dismissed because of the figures who 'birthed' them. They have captured the sense of futility and despair that people have of their current situation and the future. Granted, the Occupy folks don't have as many 'friends' in the media (Rupert Murdoch was one person who was funding the Tea Party movement), nor can they be assured the kind of political outcome that the Tea Party movement managed to secure.

In an interview recently, Warren Buffet said that there has been a class warfare going on for a long time and that "my class is winning."
 
Actually, my insults were deleted by one of our fine moderators. To save your feelings. The people you call "hipsters" are actually quite brave. Many have even left their jobs to be part of the occupation.

If you think that worldwide fraud, theft, and a general undermining of the global population is a good idea.. well, good for you. I hope you make over 250,000$ a year to justify your views.

I for one have seen people lose their livelyhoods, retirements, jobs, homes, futures, over the political shafting that we have endured over the last 30 years. Trickle down economics has been the golden shower from the bourgeois, to the proletariat. Why, even when I was working, my salary topped out at journeyman, and raises weren't even compensorate to the cost of living. Nevermind the fact that for the entire time I was working, my employer was attempting to shift the cost of my insurance onto me, instead of paying into my union trust. And for what? To increase their bottom line for the share holders...

Then there was Nafta, tarp, the deregulation of anti-trust laws, global corpirate conglomeration... and so many other things that these "hipsters" understand so much better than you.

So, please, carry on.:hug:




Nchuleftingth said:
Hahahaha... Very nice, insulting me ;)

I however, don't watch Fox news. I trollolo 4chan though, and steal my brother's copies of adbusters. I had the whole experience, I've seen the whole development. So please, if you want to argue, that'd be fun. But don't mock me.

Edit: I've not actually had the "whole" experience, as I'm not protesting, but it's more of a figurative "experience" than anything. I also retract my offer to argue. Arguing makes me feel icky in my gut. So, if you want look at it as if Occupy is some group of heroes fighting for the people, and being attacked by Fox news (lol), that is your prerogative, and I will not try to convince you otherwise.

:)

inb4 "we're all on the same team here guys"
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Slim Johnson said:
If you think that worldwide fraud, theft, and a general undermining of the global population is a good idea.. well, good for you. I hope you make over 250,000$ a year to justify your views.
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Quite obviously, you haven't read anything I've said other than "I don't like hipsters with polisci degrees", which you took offence at (do you have a polisci degree? are your facebook political views listed as "anarchy"?) , and somehow decided that although I firmly defended the IDEA of occupy, that instead I am very excited about global poverty.

Good analysis, bro. Also, like the skulls in the sig. :hug:

For the sake of others, I shalt not argue no further.

Actually, seeing as you thought it would be smart to talk about how hipsters were smarter than me, how my facts were wrong, blah blah blah, I'm just going to go full out and risk the guillotine: I think you're an absolute moron. I think you're some hipster punk kid who's mad at his parents for vomiting their religion on him. I don't think you understand anything further than you've read on wikipedia. This'll likely get deleted, but it'll make me feel better if I just explain to you in my head why your opinion of me, and of what I say, is totally irrelevant to me. For god's sake, you have a skull in your signature.

inb4 my insults get deleted.
 
Whether they are right or not in their views, I think one thing we could all learn from OWS is that you aren't going to change anyone's opinions by attacking them. Having the strength to be non-violent in the face of oppression and/or derision despite our ego screaming to fight back is quite powerful and persuasive.

Maybe the meek WILL inherit the earth...
 
Nchuleftingth said:
I'm just going to go full out and risk the guillotine: I think you're an absolute moron. I think you're some hipster punk kid who's mad at his parents for vomiting their religion on him. I don't think you understand anything further than you've read on wikipedia. This'll likely get deleted, but it'll make me feel better if I just explain to you in my head why your opinion of me, and of what I say, is totally irrelevant to me. For god's sake, you have a skull in your signature.

inb4 my insults get deleted.
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There must be a double standard on this forum, and you can go fuck yourself. Hiding behind your monitor is the only safety you have.

You piece of shit.
 
Bummer. As a "sad [not-a-hipster-but-just-as-smug] revolutionary", I was mildly amused by the increasing ragged tones of their exchange! But then again, I laugh at fart jokes, too, so thank goodness you're the administrator, David, and not I! :)

Kismet
 
I was reading about the dedication of Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s memorial yesterday. And it made me think about how, after the March on Washington and his "I Have a Dream" speech, the head of the FBI wrote a memo that called Dr. King's speech "demagogic" and that he was "the most dangerous N___o of the future." A man so celebrated by many many people today, was targeted as a threat and that the FBI would need to work to 'discredit' him.

I'm not sure why exactly I'm writing this, but something about the energies and passion, and the divisiveness in our conversations conjured up this reflection. Regardless, all this makes me wonder how some of these events will be remembered 40-50 years from now.

Dusty, you're almost a day ahead of me, if that helps any!

Kismet
 
Regarding the "board college kids" comments a little while ago (sorry, been busy)...

I am 26yo. Have a Master's in Accounting & Taxation (graduated in 2009). Work full time (salary, so more much more than 40 hrs) as a Controller. Have wonderful health insurance (high deductable). Almost done with financing my new car. Donate regularly to a homeless shelter / food pantry. Live with my boyfriend by ourselves in our apt (saving for a home within the next 6-12 mths). And I can go on.

Not all of the protestors / supporters fit whatever kind of stereotypes that the media is trying to portray.

:heart:
 
Oh, and I am intelligent enough to know why people are protesting. And why people aren't too quick to give solutions to these problems / reasons why they are protesting.
 
Every time i see some one plead/ complain that they lack health insurance or even with it can't afford there meds on this forum. it just makes it clear and clear reforms need to be made all over.

it's complicated issues that have been ignored for too long and now are boiling over into many ways. They might all see different but in reality they all have a very basic theme that profits have been put over people all over the place.
 
I agree. Like I said, I have a high deductible health insurance plan. So, for the past four years (Crohn's diagnosis) I've paid out $2,500 each year. That's $10k total. Hello, down payment for a house! Bye bye, American Dream.

And I know I'm lucky by comparison of the people on this forum. Which only makes me more sick to my stomach.
 
What American dream? My father-in-law cannot comprehend that with relatively good heath insurance I routinely put out $3000 a year on co-pays (yes, that's right) and that's if nothing is happening.

He cannot wrap his brain around the fact that my sis and bro in law are college educated and still cannot afford a home in Los Angeles. And if you are fortunate enough to get one, then there's taxes-which is 20% of the home value-EVERY year.
 
I'm all for it. I recommend watching Inside Job for understanding the corruption on Wall St. great documentary
 
Jessica said:
Not all of the protestors / supporters fit whatever kind of stereotypes that the media is trying to portray.
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And I must be about as far from the stereotypes as it is possible to get, I suppose you could say I am one of the 1%. I work for an investment bank in London and I have spent my whole career working for some of the biggest banks in the industry. Like the majority of people working in the financial sector however, I do have a conscience and I do know right from wrong and that is why I support OWS in principle, if not actually out on the streets.

Having seen the events of the last 4 years up close, I also have a deep understanding of what happened (and how) which puts me in a rather different position to the general population. I know from many conversations with colleagues that most people feel the same way, what happened during the period 2000-2007 must never be allowed to happen again and if that means the death of large parts of the investment banking and hedge fund industry due to tighter regulation and control so be it.
 
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I plan to attend a protest in DC. What the banks did they did with the complicity of the government by the regulators and legislators turning a blind eye because for a while the fraud created bubble that made things look good, which means they get re-elected. They will continue in thier failure to lead until pushed to do so. So I'm not sure I can describe exactly what action I'll be trying to make happen by protesting. but that doesn't diminish my belief that action needs to be taken.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk
 
some of the best signs at OWS is "i'm part of the 1%, tax me"

I find it so interesting that a lot of people who express opposition to OWS is against there own best interest such as union members, teacher's spouses, parents of kids in schools, or people who have been laid off.

if one of the purposes was to get people talking. they have succeeded. my facebook have been jumping. on the street everyother convo is about this.
 
I'm with Doctor Horrible on this one: The status is not quo.

More power to them!

My father is in the 1%. I am not, I have zero income right now, and at my last job I was making a grand total of 5% of what my father makes per year. But either way, it makes me sick when the lucky act entitled, because that's really what it comes down to.

Anyone else hear about the Republicans in the senate blocking the revised jobs bill because it would add a 0.5% tax on people making more than a million dollars a year.

That's not even the 1%... that's like 0.25% of the population. Are people that damned selfish that they can't give $5,000 of their million dollars to helping teachers, firefighters, police officers, and hospital workers? SERIOUSLY!?

And the BS about everyone paying the same "fair" tax rate. Okay, say you make $300,000 in a year and pay 30% in taxes. Congratulations, you've still made over $200,000 in a year. Are you really going to look at someone who makes say, $30k a year and tell them that YOU are worse off, and YOU need the government's protection?

The greed in this country is abhorrent.
 
I just found out about it. My daughter, who will be 18 in a month, is absolutely on fire for this protest. I'm pretty sure she will be joining one in the very near future.
 
for the last ten years (since i was a sophmore in college) i have been warned about how bad the ecconmany is/ would be when i graduated. All I know is there should be something better and we as society and country can make things better.

there should be a crohn's/ UC credit union. :)
 
brooklyn23 said:
That's not even the 1%... that's like 0.25% of the population. Are people that damned selfish that they can't give $5,000 of their million dollars to helping teachers, firefighters, police officers, and hospital workers? SERIOUSLY!?

And the BS about everyone paying the same "fair" tax rate. Okay, say you make $300,000 in a year and pay 30% in taxes. Congratulations, you've still made over $200,000 in a year. Are you really going to look at someone who makes say, $30k a year and tell them that YOU are worse off, and YOU need the government's protection?

The greed in this country is abhorrent.
Click to expand...

It's not the greed that concerns me, it is the fact that the last twenty years or so has seen a complete breakdown in moral and ethical standards. The symptoms of this are everywhere including the sub-prime mortgage crisis, the huge and growing inequality in North America and the financial catastrophe in the Euro zone which is already being cited as potentially the worst economic crisis in history.

On top of large scale, outright fraud, there also has been widespread tax avoidance through both legal and illegal means. How many large corporations pay next to zero tax? Why are hugely successful companies like Google trying so hard to avoid paying tax when they have more money than they know what to do with? This may not be illegal, but morally is it right that these companies employ armies of tax lawyers to find any loophole they can exploit to avoid paying tax?

In Europe there are a number of nations that are bankrupt. Not officially yet as no one has actually defaulted, but that will come soon. Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain all have serious financial issues caused by corruption, rampant borrowing and low revenues collected through taxation. Greece is particularly staggering, virtually no one pays tax, yet public sector jobs pay almost three times the equivalent in the private sector. No wonder the population is rioting, they are about to take one of the biggest hits to standard of living in history!

And it is not much better for the rest of us outside the Euro zone. Most of the analysis I have seen suggests America's GDP will contract in the region of 12% at some point in the next few years. GDP has been artificially propped up by quantitative easing over the last few years, but that is not a long term solution and once it stops, the contraction will begin.

In the UK we have inflation officially running at 5.2%, but what does that actually mean when our weekly shopping bills are up about 30% in the last year, electricity and gas is up 20%, public transport has increased by about 12% and petrol/gas hit £1.40/l which is the equivalent of over $10 a gallon in the US. The standard of living here is falling and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. As more people realise their living standards are declining and the underlying cause becomes better understood by the wider population, I can only see growing support for movements like OWS.
 
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I'm a controller. Let me tell you about moral and ethical standards... haha! Yea, they try to teach us early in college about the thin line between "tax avoidance" and "tax evasion". Gotta love us accountants.


JMC said:
The symptoms of this are everywhere including the sub-prime mortgage crisis, the huge and growing inequality in North America and the financial catastrophe in the Euro zone which is already being cited as potentially the worst economic crisis in history.
Click to expand...

Research the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act. During the debate on passing, there were so many predicions about the aftermath of this act that have come true. Completely rediculous.
 
Things are about to get interesting with the occupy the London Stock Exchange aka occupy St. Paul's cathedral movement in London. All the tent dweller will be evicted soon after the City of London took out an injunction to evict the happy campers. This could go one of two ways, a peaceful decamp to another location or an almighty kick off. I think the former would be best for the credibility of the protest, but fear the latter is more likely.

This article in the Economist helps to sum up the problem, the top 1% have become disproportionately wealthy at the expense of the rest of us. This obviously would not be such a big problem had it occurred through means other than large scale fraud and ripping off the rest of the population who now have to pay for the ensuing financial collapse.
 
This probably has little to do with the occupy movement but it is about big business and the worker so I thought I would put my rant here. :)

Well down in Oz we have had a tumultuous weekend due to the grounding of the QANTAS fleet.

QANTAS management and it's workers have been in negotiations for the past 18 months over pay and conditions and it is a result of the world we now find ourselves in....cheaper costs overseas. I have no doubt in my mind that both sides have reasonable demands and unreasonable demands and I know it is a complex issue but what the CEO of QANTAS did on the weekend was bang out of order.

I am probably like a lot of people, while ever strike action doesn't affect me I am quite indifferent to it and when it does the public can be very fickle and turn on the worker in a heartbeat but this latest action has polarised the public like never before and in my mind it would seem in favour of the worker. The CEO is not Australian and I think he seriously underestimated how iconic QANTAS is to the Australian public.

So why am I pissed off with the CEO of QANTAS...I am pissed off because...

- I don't like be treated with contempt and I don't like being ambushed. Don't behave like a spoilt little boy packing up his toys when he doesn't get his way. Yes, there was the start of rolling 4 hour strikes by baggage handlers, yes it was a pain in the arse but grounding the fleet was far worse.

- I don't like that you said this decision was only made on Saturday morning when it is blatantly apparent that measures were put in place well before this.

- I don't like that at the shareholders AGM meeting on Friday you were granted a 71% pay increase when you have been quibbling with your workforce for so long. I don't like that you say that you were paid substantially more in your last job. I don't care that you were because you left that job knowing what you were going to.

- I don't like that you tug at my heartstrings with every QANTAS ad that appears on television, it somehow implies some sort of loyalty from me when you give none in return.

...............

I will never understand why CEO's are paid such ridiculous salaries for making profits that are often made on the back of job losses and moving operations overseas, there is no skill in that. I am no economist but you don't have to be Einstein to work out that sacking people and/or employing people at a cheaper rate overseas will save you money. Why do shareholders pay these monkeys when any Tom, Dick or Harry could make these decisions.

Rant over...:)
Dusty.
 
DustyKat said:
I will never understand why CEO's are paid such ridiculous salaries for making profits that are often made on the back of job losses and moving operations overseas, there is no skill in that. I am no economist but you don't have to be Einstein to work out that sacking people and/or employing people at a cheaper rate overseas will save you money. Why do shareholders pay these monkeys when any Tom, Dick or Harry could make these decisions.
Click to expand...

The problem is short termism driven by the desire to create "shareholder value". The CEO would argue that he improved the bottom line, while completely ignoring the destruction he has reeked on human lives.

Now though, the problems created by giving away our jobs to the lowest bidder are starting to come home to roost. Both the UK and the US have destroyed their manufacturing capabilities in the haste to out source everything to India/China. What did we get? Cheap iPod and flat screen TVs and no job security. What does a county like the UK do, when 73% of its GDP is derived from service industries like banking and insurance when this market collapses? I suppose we are about to find out...
 
The Big Lie made a surprise appearance Tuesday when New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, responding to a question about Occupy Wall Street, stunned observers by exonerating Wall Street: “It was not the banks that created the mortgage crisis. It was, plain and simple, Congress who forced everybody to go and give mortgages to people who were on the cusp.”
Click to expand...

There goes Michael Bloomberg's credibility...
 
Richard Branson seems to get it:

I truly believe that capitalism was created to help people live better lives, but sadly over the years it has lost its way a bit. The short-term focus on profit has driven most businesses to forget about the important long-term role they have in taking care of people and the planet.
Click to expand...

That is probably the most perfect two sentence summary of the problem I have ever read.
 
I haven't read all of it, but I do agree that things need to change, but I don't think camping out in the middle of big cities will change anything. See to it that you work in an environment that you can start making the changes.Now it is only costing lots of money all over the world, to see to it that these people leave again and then we are left with the mess they made, and who is going to pay for it, we all through our taxes.
 
Neel said:
I haven't read all of it, but I do agree that things need to change, but I don't think camping out in the middle of big cities will change anything.
Click to expand...

I agree and having walked past one of the camps in London, it is clear it is attracting the kind of people who like to camp out and protest, but do not necessarily understand precisely why they are there. Having these people associated with OWS puts off the ordinary 99% and provides easy material to discredit it.

As European nations slide into default and we start to see the failure of banks again as we did in 2008 and the US hits yet another budget crisis because the politicians cannot agree on deficit reductions, it will be interesting to see how opinions evolve on OWS.
 
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