Raw unpasturized milk

[Whit]

Anyone tried this? I have been reading that raw milk has all kinds of good bacteria that for Crohn's suffers might lead to a healthier gut. Let me know.
Thanks.

 

[kiny]

Naw.

Just wondering where you read that.

 

[nogutsnoglory]

I have read about it to but not as it relates to crohns. Dr. Ron Schmid is a big advocate of raw unpasteurized milk. I think it's illegal in most states though.

The Weston A. Price Foundation also has info on why they support raw milk.

 

[mnsun]

I would definitely give it a go if I could find a reputable farmer in my area. Not sure just how beneficial it is for crohns, but most people say it does wonders for their allergies and could generally tame the immune system. With the enzymes and flora intact, and without the homogenization, it seems to be tolerable among people who can't handle casein/lactose even.

I think the biggest hurdle is finding a farmer who takes it seriously; testing the cows for TB; being a super clean freak throughout the process; generally the most organic and hygenic small herd operation. Then, there are the absurd legal wranglings which make people go to farms or join "clubs" which are routinely raided by moronic tools, robbing people of their health and home at gunpoint. Watch Farmageddon.

 

[Lisa]

I pretty much grew up on raw milk - Mom would go to a local farm and get it right from the tank (still warm sometimes).....she also got goat milk for a while....

One thing it did was put me off to drinking store bought milk....just doesn't have the same flavor!

 

[Whit]

I got the idea from watching Farmageddon and there are friends of mine who share a cow here in Madison Va and drink raw milk. Maybe I'll give it a try.

 

[acheallova]

Whit,
That might be a question for Judith. She is the scientific moderator on information. There is many benefits, I'm sure, but i was completely raised n raw milk as we milked our own cows; however, there are now studies out that unpasteurised milk carries MAP. MAP is one of the main pathogens being investigated/studied as a causative agent for crohns. Best of luck with this, it'll be interesting to know what you find out! - hugs-

 

[Judith]

Whit,
I completely appreciate your desire to try a more "natural" version of milk (nonpasteurized). I agree with pasobuff - it tastes *much* better than store bought milk.

However, I believe drinking nonpasteurized milk is not in your best interest. Even if you find a farmer who is extremely clean about their operation you cannot sterilize the cow's teats and an infection on the skin surface (or even within the milk ducts) is highly likely, even if the cow is not displaying outward signs of infection.

According to the CDC (Centers for Disease Control), the majority of foodborne illness cases due to milk / dairy sources were due to nonpasteurized sources CDC Nonpasteurized Milk Disease Outbreaks).

Many persons with Crohn's disease have an Immune System with a reduced ability to clear Microbes in the body, including bacteria. This can cause the bacteria to overgrow and cause an infection that may not otherwise be so difficult to clear in persons with a normally functioning Immune system.

 

[acheallova]

Thanks Judith. Sorry about not having your title correct above. - hugs-

 

[kiny]

If recent research and Judith are right, and I think the research is right, that crohn's disease results from the inability to clear bacteria and bacterial debris, and NOD2 and ATGL16 both point to that direction, an immuonodeficiency. The very last thing you would want to do is drink milk of any kind, which is very high in pathogenic bacteria.

Even before NOD2 and ATGL16 were mapped out, they knew people with crohn's disease were immunodeficient because simple tests where they inject a harmless bacteria, done double blind, showed this.

Crohn's disease is not an autoimmune disease, the reaction is not against self-antigens, it's against content in the gut lumen, which is why people heal up when the bacterial load and fecal stream is removed during surgery and it's the reason why broad spectrum antibiotics work. ALL immunoglobulin reactions, is against gut lumen content, NONE of the reactions are against self-antigens.

The only issue is that NOD2 and ATGL16 and all the other small chance factors are still super small chances, many people who have crohn do not have the needed genetic defects to be destined to have crohn but still get crohn, it's an interplay between the innate and adaptive immune system and the inability of the body to control gut lumen content and inability of T cells to keep each other in check.

Basically, I think, and I'm not alone in that, that any food for crohn should be extremely low in bacterial load and raw milk is super high in pathogenic and potential pathogenic (if a bacteria crosses the intestinal barrier enough times it becomes pathogenic, T cells will mount a response) bacterial load, it's the exact opposite of what you want.

Food itself is high in bacterial load, from reading a study I was shown, 1/3 of the food you eat is extremely high in bacteria load. While this isn't an issue for someone who doesn't have crohn's disease, the adaptive immune system in someone with crohn's disease will mount a response if the innate immune system which might be deficient or not fast enough, can not deal with the bacteria.

One of the possible reasons EN works is because of the way it's processed and packaged, it is extremely low in bacterial load, which means the innate nor the adaptive immune system will mount a response in the gut for it.

Ther eare also issues with the milk fat in milk, which is very pro-inflammatory when it comes into contact with the intestine, linked a few studies about it.

Doesn't mean you can't challenge the immune system with harmless bacteria, in fact doing that improves crohn, T cell employ self regulation, but it has to be controlled and it should not lead to intestinal inflammation, but raw milk is uncontrolled and will likely activate the adaptive immune system causing more issues. I would never try raw milk.

 

[Emily]

It is a BIG no-no if you are on corticosteroids (prednisone or entocort). I know cause my dad loves the stuff and it's the only milk he drinks but every bottle comes with a giant warning sticker about that.
I don't think it's good idea and I wouldn't touch it. I trust Judith on this. My dad is the healthiest person I know, so he has no problem with it. I'm scared of it though.
I don't drink milk because I think it is incredibly unnatural to drink the breastmilk of another animal produced for their babies. I'm not a cow, or a baby cow so milk freaks me out. Just my own little weird thing with milk, but the point is that cow's milk makes me wary anyway so I'd want to at least have the assurance that it was pasteurized.

 

[hugh]

I know lots of people who drink raw milk from clean cows, and good on them.
but experience has shown that lactose is a big no-no for me, and also for lots of cronies so i'd be wary.

 

[Whit]

Thanks all for your input. I'm going to study this some more before I jump into raw milk as part of my diet and I need to learn more about Crohn's. Kiny says crohn's is not an autoimmune disease, but I was told by my Dr.'s that it was. (NOTE: My Drs. are very short on time and my GI Dr. is relatively uncommunative.) I was also under the impression that the problem with one's gut who has crohn's is that it lacks the proper bacteria to digest efficiently.
The internet doesn't offer a lot about the disease and living with it (though this forum helps) so my next question is about where to get a good print resource about Crohn's.
Thanks,
Whit

 

[Farmwife]

Whit I'm about to run out the door but when I get back I'll give my view point on raw milk. Of course I'm kind of bias because I'm a DAIRY FARMER"S WIFE! I don't know much but I do know raw milk!

 

[Farmwife]

Sorry this will still be short.

Most contaminates come from UNCLEAN containers not "dirty" milk.
Most media don't tell you that when someone get's sick from raw milk.

Our milk is tested by the state. I know are milk is good. Not every place is like that.
IF you did a cow share you should ask to view the barn and farm first.
If the farmer says no then move on to some place else.
Please remember that farmers have to milk twice a day so stopping by a middle of milking time might not be the best time. Farmers are busy and cows are moving and cows do poo a hundred pounds a day.
When cows utters our clean their usual tripled clean. Meaning...1-whip down, 2-soapy water wipe down, 3-Iodine applied to sterilize. They wiped again after milking also.
Then it's sent into a milk tank where it first goes through a filter to catch what the farmers missed. BTW, they don't clean the filter much because there clean well in the first place.
If you do a cow share look for all these thing.
Raw milk IS GOOD FOR you for many reason. AGAIN I'M BIAS!
However if it's to hard to digest try goats milk. It's easier for the stomach to break it down.
Also organic Greek yogurt is great for you. All the good stuff your looking for!
You'll have to sweeting it with honey or sugar.

Sorry have to go!

 

[hugh]

Whit,
If you are after good bacteria then you want fermented foods,
Raw milk isn't particularly high in Bacteria (if it is then it's gone off!!!!!!!)
Try making your own yogurt with the right strains of starter (google SCD yogurt).
It is a huge part of the SCD diet and helps many people.
There are many non-dairy fermented foods out there

I tried SCD and found that i only improved when i gave up the yogurt.
I (like many others) have problems with lactose.

If you are really going to try raw milk then i recommend you exclude all dairy for a month and then test yourself with a glass of milk (hint: don't go too far from a toilet )

The Weston Price Foundation is a good website to look at for raw milk info but don't believe everything you read in the internet
http://www.westonaprice.org/faq/faq-dairy

 

[acheallova]

Thanks all for your input. I'm going to study this some more before I jump into raw milk as part of my diet and I need to learn more about Crohn's. Kiny says crohn's is not an autoimmune disease, but I was told by my Dr.'s that it was. (NOTE: My Drs. are very short on time and my GI Dr. is relatively uncommunative.) I was also under the impression that the problem with one's gut who has crohn's is that it lacks the proper bacteria to digest efficiently.
The internet doesn't offer a lot about the disease and living with it (though this forum helps) so my next question is about where to get a good print resource about Crohn's.
Thanks,
Whit

A GI's time in alot of places is short. For years they have educated to perceive crohns as an autoimmune disease. My GI, also states otherwise. If you would like to do some historical research on the disease, look up Johnies disease ( originating in cattle). There are a few GI's out there whom consider themselves " rebels" towards addressing this disease. It is based off the non- autoimmune ideals. Best of luck! - hugs-

 

[Judith]

Thanks Judith. Sorry about not having your title correct above. - hugs-

No worries! I didnt even notice.

 

[kiny]

Kiny says crohn's is not an autoimmune disease, but I was told by my Dr.'s that it was. (NOTE: My Drs. are very short on time and my GI Dr. is relatively uncommunative.) I was also under the impression that the problem with one's gut who has crohn's is that it lacks the proper bacteria to digest efficiently.

I think there are facts, which I and others put online many times:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19437144
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20594136
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2810%2960282-6/fulltext

And then there are the people and many GI who don't use facts and say things like "crohn's disease is a disease that attacks the intestine", which is completely wrong.

The inflammation is directed at gut lumen content, all tests, ASCA, AIEC, MAP, OmpC which is a reaction against E Coli outer membrane, all of them are directed at content in the intestine, none are directed at self-antigens. Autoimmune means they need to find autoantibodies, self-antigens, they have found NONE. What they do find is reactions against pathogenic and potential pathogenic bacteria, all the time, hell half the blood tests are looking for those things.

The immune system being overreactive is a nice theory but it's not founded in evidence, NOD2 and ATGL16 mutations results in a lowered initial immune response.

People talk about vitamin D all the time on the forum, if we have an overreactive immune system, vitamin D would be horrible for us, vitamin D stimulates human beta-defensin 2, it can partly correct issues with NOD2 and ATG16L1 and autophagy. Vitamin D helps the innate immune system and is able to stimulate NOD2, which is mutated in a number of crohn's disease patients. Even for the people without NOD2 mutation, vitamin D helps the innate immune system to deal with pathogens, which is why vitamin D and vitamin A are lauded for their antimicrobial properties.

Doctors and online resources have started to repeat this myth year after year, not a single study shows that's actually what's going on, in fact most studies if you actually start reading them, either never speak about autoimmune disease or point out that to this day there is no evidence that crohn's disease is an autoimmune disease, in fact the evidence there is, shows it's anything but an autoimmune disease. The best theory founded on evidence is that the body can not deal with gut lumen content because of macrophage deficiences, deficiencies in autophagy and bacterial recognition. It also easily explains why most crohn's disease patients with active disease have lesions in the terminal ileum, it's likely because bacterial load is extremely high there.

It also explains the high number of crohn's disease patients with terminal ileum involvement, who have strictures, don't respond to medicine anymore, called refractory patients, put them on antibiotics and many improve and even the strictures even improve in some, bacterial load increases in people with strictures, bacterial load becomes extremely high and they become refractory, give them antibiotics and they improve.

Which is also the reason why broad spectrum antibiotics that can penetrate macrophages like cipro, clarithromycin, rifampicin and others are able to induce short or long term remission, because they can correct where the immune system skipped a beat. If crohn's disease was an autoimmune disease directed at self-antigens, antibiotics would do literally nothing, that's not what happens at all, while antibiotics are not a cure, they do for a substantial amount of people result in temporary or long-term remission.

 

[Whit]

Thanks Kiny. The info is very interesting.

 

[Ya noy]

Raw milk has become a "thing" these days, with an estimated 10 million participants.

I buy raw milk because it's not homogenized, but I pasteurize it myself, and then use it to make kefir.

Truth is, for all the dire warnings, there's actually been only 2 deaths which have been linked to drinking raw milk, but even the cause of those 2 hasn't been conclusively proven.

It has been said that drinking raw milk has caused negative effects for an estimated 1,500 people, but that's also over the course of the past 20 years, and of those, only somewhere between 50-80 were serious enough to result in hospitalization.

By contrast, medication errors are responsible for causing approx. 1 death per day, and injure approx. 1.3 million people in the U.S. per year.

Even more interesting is that approximately 2,900 people a year are killed by hippopotamuses, along with approx. 550 annual deaths caused by shopping on "Black Friday."

I'll still be pasteurizing my milk.

 

[acheallova]

Wow Ya,
Nice stats. That's cool.