Bacteria & Autoimmune Disease

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D Bergy

D Bergy

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I stumbled onto this article that supports my opinion that Autoimmune diseases such as Crohn's are not a result of an immune system attacking the body.

Instead the immune system is attacking unidentified bacteria. If that is the case, there is a lot more identification of these bacteria to be done.

Autoimmune diseases have long been regarded as illnesses in which the immune system creates autoantibodies to attack the body itself. But, researchers at the California non-profit Autoimmunity Research Foundation (ARF) explain that the antibodies observed in autoimmune disease actually result from alteration of human genes and gene products by hidden bacteria. Not long ago, scientists believed they had located all bacteria capable of causing human disease, But DNA discoveries in the last decade have led the NIH Human Microbiome Project to now estimate that as many as 90% of cells in the body are bacterial in origin. Many of these bacteria, which have yet to be named and characterized, have been implicated in the progression of autoimmune disease.

Entire article at link below

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2009/04/27/autoantibodies.may.be.created.response.bacterial.dna

Dan
 
If it were an infection immuno suppressants would make the problem worse, not better as the bacteria were left to run amok. If it's a matter of attacking good bacteria nothing has really changed in a diagnostic/treatment sense.
 
I do not see a lot of Crohn's patients improving long term. In the short run immune suppressants provide relief from symptoms, when they are effective. In the long run what I see happening with many people is the development of other diseases.

Just make a list of all the other autoimmune problems our group faces. Here are a few I have run across. I am sure most anyone here can add to the list.

Arthritis and its cousin Ankylosing Spondylitis.

Hydradenis Suppuritiva.

Cancer.

Primary sclerosing cholangitis.

Pyoderma gangrenosum.

Celiac Sprue.

Are these just other autoimmune diseases that would occur no matter what, or are they caused by the proliferation of bacteria or other pathogens?

I lean toward the camp that thinks that most of these conditions can be avoided if the pathogens responsible are kept in check. It certainly is not proven to anyone's satisfaction, but when you look at autoimmune diseases as a group, it makes more sense to me that there is a more conventional cause. It is hard for me to believe that the immune system just goes nuts and attacks the very thing it is supposed to protect. That takes a stretch of even my rather flexible imagination.

Another consideration is that Low Dose Naltrexone is used for a host of autoimmune diseases. It's only method of action that is known is the temporary boosting or normalizing of the immune system. Lets take the "boosting" effect for an example. If the immune system is in fact made stronger, and there is evidence of this in its use for Cancer, then it should make any autoimmune disease substantially worse. To make an already berserk immune system attacking the body stronger would only result in a more effective attack of the body.

If instead, it works by Boosting the immune system, allowing your body to finally reduce or eliminate the offending bacteria then its makes sense that it has positive results. There is still the possibility that it is just making a Berserk immune system work normally. It does seem like very simple method to correct what is likely a complicated problem, if this is the case. I am not convinced it would be that easy to correct such a complex immune problem. I think it is far more likely that the relatively simpler process of boosting the immune system is what is happening.

It comes down to Occam's Razor in the end. If several theories are presented, and none of them are more likely than the other, then preference should be given to the simpler one. This does not mean the simpler one is the correct theory. But since most disease is caused by a pathogen, I will stick to what is true most of the time, and consistent with other diseases, rather than a completely different explanation, that seems far fetched. At least until it is proven otherwise.

Only time will tell, which theory, will pan out. It could even be a new theory that does not even exist today.

Dan
 
I hope your body is not full of bad bacteria, but it could be.

Another weird thing about these autoimmune diseases in my family is that two out of my three children have them also, but not the same diseases. I suspect my third child will have Crohn's, as he has some minor symptoms already. They are all adults now, so they know what to watch for.

I have Crohn's,

My Daughter has Celiac Sprue.

My youngest son has Hidradenitis Supurrativa.

The genetics are unfortunately mine, but the diseases are different. This also leans me toward the immune dysfunction combined with pathogens causing various diseases. You would think they all would have Crohn's if it was strictly an immune system inheritance.

What are the odds of these three diseases occurring by coincidence? The common denominator seems to be the immune dysfunction and the variable likely the pathogen that is involved. If they do nothing to control bacteria, I think the odds are good they will develop other diseases as well.

Dan
 
Astute insight Dan, I believe something along those lines (though, as you said, until proven otherwise)...although, I think the immunomodulators being so prevalent as far as efficacy should mean they "normalize" as well, according to that line of thinking....but maybe again, as it's been theorized, Crohn's is actually a collection of diseases, based on current beliefs/science, that is presumed to be one single affliction (only to be sub-categorized at a later time).

On a side-note, for some reason, my mind seems to develop "anti-Occam's Razor" as I'd call it, as I've always seemed to infuse complexity into an otherwise simple concept. ie: "there has to be more to it"....Sometimes that solves issues, other times it creates them.
 
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I agree that they do normalize, as far as symptoms are concerned. Even with a suppressed immune system, bacteria do not have a free reign in the body. There still is an immune response but it is damped somewhat. It prevents some of the more damaging immune responses. This is a very useful property of the immune suppressants, but the drawback is that the original pathogen is not eliminated. If a perfect treatment existed, it would remove the pathogen from the body. If there is a pathogen to begin with. Some pathogens are nearly impossible to get rid of completely.

Inflammation is a natural byproduct of an immune response, but it is normally temporary as the threat is eliminated. We just have a more or less continues immune response with inflammation which is present for too long of a time, not accomplishing what it should and causing damage in the process.

Bacteria still have a survival of the fittest contest going on. There is only so much terrain for all of them to live in and they compete for space. In a best case scenario the good bacteria will hold most of the bad ones in check. When the bad ones get too dominant is when other problems develop. At least that is the premise I go on.

I think everyone does the complexity thing. I was completely overwhelmed with this disease and its seemingly complex presentations and bewildering number of theories and contradictions. It took a while to try string together a cohesive theory that satisfied my concept of "what makes sense". The not so funny part of it is that "what makes sense" to me, could be completely wrong with future discoveries and information.

My practical side says, since it is working for me, stick with it until it quits working. If it quits working, I will have to start all over again. I hope it does not come to that because I have no backup theory that I am satisfied with.

Time will tell me if the theory is correct or not. There are others using the same treatment methods. I have not heard from most of them, but the ones I have heard from are happy with the improvement they have had so far. One person has even reported some improvement with MS symptoms. Any improvement with MS is pretty rare. If a pathogen is causing the symptoms, they should continue to improve.

I just wish I had more solid study type evidence, but the scientists and researchers are going to have to provide that part of it. Until then all I have is anecdotes and probability to work with.

Dan
 
ok im a little confused.

if the crohns and these other related diseases are caused by a normal immune system response to and unidentified bacteria, then where do genetics come into this?

i see the occurence of the "auto immune" diseases in my family as not a coincidence either.
my paternal grandfather (retrospectively) had crohns, and my dad has MS, and i have crohns.
 
To answer your question Kello, I think the line of thinking goes that there is some heredity/genetic link involving the immune system but the pathogen/bacterial connection Dan makes sets off the inappropriate response.
 
ok thanks. thats how ive kind of thought of it, but in some of the reading on here it seemed different and got confused.

i used some analogy that i thought showed it. something about a square and a rhombus lol, its on the 'what cause your crohns' thread.
dont remember the specifics, too fuzzy atm.
 
drew_wymore said:
To answer your question Kello, I think the line of thinking goes that there is some heredity/genetic link
Click to expand...
if crohs is hereidatary who did i get it from? no one in my family as it and most of them have no idea what crohns is anyway!
sharon x
 
merrywidow said:
if crohs is hereidatary who did i get it from? no one in my family as it and most of them have no idea what crohns is anyway!
sharon x
Click to expand...

I've read there is a 20% link to family. So that doesn't mean that there has to be anyone in your family history that passed down Crohns to you Merry. If there is a genetic link to auto immune diseases in general of which Crohns being one then there are increased odds of heredity playing a role.

Whatever is wrong with me, whether it turns out to be Crohns or my new working theory of immunoglobulin deficiency ... nobody in my family or in my family history going back at least 2 generations on both sides have either so who knows ...
 
I am the first in my family with autoimmune issues as well, although a much older sister was just diagnosed with Hashimoto's Thyroiditis this month. I just happened to get it first. Like my husband likes to say: It's gotta start somewhere. And then I usually respond: So it might as well be with me, huh?
 
My mother has schleraderma, also an auto-immune disease. When I initially went to my GP with constant D, he looked at my family medical history and said that I may have Crohn's because I was "genetically pre-disposed" to auto-immune diseases. He said not a lot is completely understood, but the diseases themselves are not hereditary, but your genetic make up makes you succeptible(sp?). He said it was like having all of the ingredients and just needing a catalyst. He said it is believed that environmental factors play a role as well, acting as the catalyst. At least, this is how I interpreted what he was telling me. It made sense to me.

When I was little I was eating a candy bar and half way through it I discovered that it was crawling with little white worms! I don't remember well the specifics of the incident, but i do remember having worms in my intestinal tract and having to take medicine to get rid of them. Although I was not diagnosed with Crohn's until I was 30, I have always thought that this incident was somehow related...my catalyst?

Something else I had heard was that babies born by c-section were more likely to develop Crohn's, a theory that is somehow tied to exposure to essential bacteria in the birth canal. I have no documentation to support this claim, it was something that was mentioned to be by a co-worker. I posted something about this on a thread once, but did not get too much response.

Sorry if all of this sounds like unrelated psycho babble...just sharing those random thoughts that go through my mind about how I may have ended up with this darn stinkin disease! I guess bottom line is that I do not really understand everything contained within this thread, but I definitely think bacteria plays a role...OK, I'll shut up now...
 
ewwww shady that happened to me once!
i was eating a mini reeses pb cup and ate one bite, swallowed, then looked down and there was two of those kind of worms on the top of it. they werent near where i had taken a bite so i dont think i ate any but.....who knows.
ewww that was not a fun experience.
 
Ewww. Mine was a Chunky Bar. I don't even know if they still make those. It was so gross...they were these little white maggot things. Yuck! It was a while before I could even eat chocolate again...
 
Finding them in your stool is not a delightful experience either, but it is better than eating them. Yuk!

My sister was found eating a dead bird when she was real young. It still makes me quesy to think about it. It did not seem to harm her in any way.

Dan
 
As time has gone by with having this disease (18yrs) there really hasn't been much that can gross me out anymore...except for some of the above posts LOL.

I know researchers say that although for aprox 20% of IBDers there is a genetic component involved while for the other aprox 80% there apparently isn't but I'm not just sure how exactly they came to that conclusion or those numbers either.

The way I look at it is, my mom didn't get sick with her UC until AFTER I got sick with my CD, so obviously mine was inherited from her yet I got sick first, meaning mine was triggered before hers was.

Who's to say that at some point (cuz they're not 100% sure on how IBD is passed and with skipping generations and such) everyone that now has an IBD didn't have a past relative that had it. There is absolutely no way anyone will know all their past relatives GI issues, especially since even talking about them in this day an age is still considered taboo. Not to mention, how many people have issues (maybe mild enough but still have them) and they hide them cuz of embarassment/shame even if they have another family member that is DX with an IBD.

Just my veiw :)
 
The other factor is that the world we live in has changed rather dramatically from the world of our grand parents. We are exposed to many things that did not even exist 50 years ago. We eat far more refined foods, genetically altered foods, have far more vaccinations, and now are exposed to high frequencies from cell phones, cell towers, wireless internet connections, cordless phones, etc. We heat our foods in microwaves, which do change the properties of the food.

Any or non of these may contribute to health problems. It is basically an experiment on the human population without our consent.

Dan
 
Dan -
Thanks for the post. I completely agree with your theory. Makes perfect sense. I also wonder if there is a link with allergies as I've posted elsewhere. Perhaps it's the body's way of fighting an allergy in your digestive track.

Anyhow, I'm finding the immunosuppressants working for me. I'm drinking the GI koolaid I guess. . .
 
Allergies are one of the most difficult things in the world to try figure out. I would like to know the how and why about them.

I have tried to figure them out and have read every theory under the sun, but I still do not have a clue if anyone really knows. If anyone does, I would like to hear it.

According to the pin prick test, I am allergic to ragweed. I have read that the pin prick test is flawed because it only accounts for skin reaction and not an internal reaction. I did not really believe that, but then my chiropractor tested me because she knows I am curious about alternative diagnosis/ treatment. She does a muscle test which I am extremely skeptical of. She determines by this questionable test that I am allergic to mold, not ragweed. She gives me homeopathic remedy for Mold and darn if it did not seem to work. It was late in the season and I could not test it as thoroughly as I wanted so I am still not convinced. I will this fall. If it works, in the worst of the season, I will really be confused.

LDN did not help my allergies. I was hoping it would.

I hate trying to figure out allergies, and I hate having them!

Dan
 
Bergy, I am sooo with you on the allergies....runny eyes, itchy eyes, sore throut, stuffy, but yet somehowrunny, nose.

I hate early spring and fall due to allergies!!!!

It is terrible cuz fall is my favorite time of the year! And unless I wear a mask I have a very hard time enjoying it.
 
Crohn's disease has been around for over 100 yrs, Alfred the great was suspected of having CD....here's a list of some famous people with crohn's and ulcerative colitis...

http://organizedwisdom.com/Famous_People_with_Crohn's_Disease

:)
 
Claratin is my best friend in the Fall. I would like to find a way to be rid of allergies, without the years of shots.

I must not know many famous people because I only recognized a few names on the list. I can see why a president would have Crohn's. They age fast once in office from the stress.

Dan
 
i always found fistulas in crohn's disease to be one of those greatly overlooked phenomenons that comes with the disease. The wikipedia defintion says that fistulas are abnormal connections or passageways between two epithelium-lined organs or vessels that normally do not connect. we all know this is not normal but the real question that i have yet to see anyone ask is why this happens.

if you want to talk occam's razor then to me the bacterial properties would seem to promote the easiest explanation of why fistulas occur. the bacteria invade the linings of the intestinal tract and once they "break through" they become opportunistic on other organs or other parts of the GI tract. it just doesn't make sense to me that the immune system would start attacking the intestines and create some kind of acute portal to another organ or another part of the GI tract and start attacking there unless it was attacking something that wasn't supposed to be there.
 
Fistulas can happen with crohn's because with CD the inflammation can affect the many layers of the intestinal lining (it doesn't with UC and this is why with UC fistulas generally don't happen) fistulas can also be an issue for those with diverticulosis as well (and so can bowel perforations).

Not all CDers get fistulas and there are some CDers that are prone to them specifically.

:)
 
D Bergy said:
It is basically an experiment on the human population without our consent.

Dan
Click to expand...

Brilliant point of view, I like this Dan. But who is the mad scientist pushing the buttons and turning the dials?

What Shady said about the immune system needing a "catalyst" from an environmental trigger of sorts is what I understand and believe, though, I cannot rule out the possibility that Crohns Disease is really a collection of yet-to-be discovered "sub-diseases" since there is so much irregularity and too many erratic properties and mysteries to align.

I always just tell people it is a lot like other personal characteristics: Genetics loads the gun, and the pulling of the trigger is environmental/conditional...although the recipe analogy is good too: all the ingredients are thrown in "just right" but you need the heat in the oven to get the specific result. The right pathogen/intruder is that heat.

PB4, I don't think Dan meant to infer that Crohns came about in the last 50 years, I think he was implying the frequency of occurrence has dramatically gone up recently, which is the case as far as anyone can tell, though, we can all only guess due to the official "label" emerging in 1932 (though prior documentations of IBD-like symptoms exist).
 
D Bergy said:
I hope your body is not full of bad bacteria, but it could be.

Another weird thing about these autoimmune diseases in my family is that two out of my three children have them also, but not the same diseases. I suspect my third child will have Crohn's, as he has some minor symptoms already. They are all adults now, so they know what to watch for.

I have Crohn's,

My Daughter has Celiac Sprue.

My youngest son has Hidradenitis Supurrativa.

The genetics are unfortunately mine, but the diseases are different. This also leans me toward the immune dysfunction combined with pathogens causing various diseases. You would think they all would have Crohn's if it was strictly an immune system inheritance.

What are the odds of these three diseases occurring by coincidence? The common denominator seems to be the immune dysfunction and the variable likely the pathogen that is involved. If they do nothing to control bacteria, I think the odds are good they will develop other diseases as well.

Dan
Click to expand...
I have a father with Parkinson's, a mother with R-Arthuritus & my little sister has Multiple Sclerosis... I get Crohn's... I have a ANA reading of 1400 (instead of >160).
The specialist refuses to aknowledge they are connected???

It's obvious to me!!!
 
I have a father with Parkinson's, a mother with R-Arthuritus & my little sister has Multiple Sclerosis... I get Crohn's... I have a ANA reading of 1400 (instead of >160).
The specialist refuses to aknowledge they are connected???
Click to expand...

When you dig into any of the diseases you mention, someone has found a suspect pathogen or pathogens and all respond to certain antibiotic treatments.

This is one of the most telling research I have seen on the subject of pathogens implicated in disease in modern times. Some of the best research was done decades ago.

She identified two different species of L-form bacteria in patients with Parkinson’s Disease. The L- form species of Borrellia burgdoferi was detected in patients with Lyme disease. She cultured serum from forty patients with multiple sclerosis and found a different species of the borrelia L-form present in her samples. Soon after, she detected Chlamydia pneumonia in the blood of patients who had suffered a pulmonary thrombosis. She also found bacteria that resembled M. tuberculosis in the blood of patients with the lung disease sarcoidosis.

http://bacteriality.com/2007/08/18/history/

Here is another example of a pathogen suspected in Parkinson's disease.

http://www.mcmp.purdue.edu/seminars/05fall/hsuabstract.pdf

MS is treated using the Marshall protocol, with at least some success. Again, LDN only normalizes or boosts the immune system. Why would it work on every one of these diseases if a pathogen is not involved?

This really is not rocket science, to anyone who spends some time really looking at the big picture. By far, the bulk of the evidence points to a pathogen for all of these diseases. The pathogen may not be nailed down, but diseases that respond to both antibiotics and Low Dose Naltrexone are very likely pathogen related.

That does not make the disease simple. There is still the immune system problem and additional opportunistic pathogens involved once the disease in question gets entrenched in the body. Also permanent damage from the disease process.

In my opinion, it takes at least twenty times the effort to get a disease you have under control as opposed to preventing it to begin with. That may even be optimistic. That is why my treatment is geared toward disease prevention. I am susceptible to every nasty autoimmune disease people with Crohn's can get. I can prevent most all of them without too much effort. To get rid of them after the fact, is a far bigger battle.

Just my opinions, and they could be wrong. Use your own judgment.

Dan
 
BWS1982 said:
PB4, I don't think Dan meant to infer that Crohns came about in the last 50 years, I think he was implying the frequency of occurrence has dramatically gone up recently, which is the case as far as anyone can tell, though, we can all only guess due to the official "label" emerging in 1932 (though prior documentations of IBD-like symptoms exist).
Click to expand...

A good point. Aslo keep in mind that many of us appear to be able to identify an event that may have "triggered" our disease. Many of these events are related to antibiotics that were not used until the 20th century. I guess you can argue whether the antibiotics are the cause or that prior to the use of antibiotics, simple bacterial infections often lead to death, thus many people with the genetic predisposition would have died before their Crohn's developed.
 
D Bergy said:
I hope your body is not full of bad bacteria, but it could be.

Another weird thing about these autoimmune diseases in my family is that two out of my three children have them also, but not the same diseases. I suspect my third child will have Crohn's, as he has some minor symptoms already. They are all adults now, so they know what to watch for.

I have Crohn's,

My Daughter has Celiac Sprue.

My youngest son has Hidradenitis Supurrativa.

The genetics are unfortunately mine, but the diseases are different. This also leans me toward the immune dysfunction combined with pathogens causing various diseases. You would think they all would have Crohn's if it was strictly an immune system inheritance.

What are the odds of these three diseases occurring by coincidence? The common denominator seems to be the immune dysfunction and the variable likely the pathogen that is involved. If they do nothing to control bacteria, I think the odds are good they will develop other diseases as well.

Dan
Click to expand...


yes, i have been wondering about the autoimmune connection because i don't have 1st degree or 2nd degree relatives with IBD (at least none that i know of, i don't know my dad's father and that side of the family) yet, different kinds of autoimmune diseases run in both sides of my family...

mother - hypothyroidism (also my grandmother's sister has it)
father - asthma
me - crohn's disease
maternal grandmother - diabetes type 2
maternal grandfather - a kidney problem that i don't know the name of
paternal grandmother - sarcoidosis
1st and 2nd cousins - alopecia and diabetes type 1

plus cancer is in both sides of the family.
 
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Mom- Hypothyroidism
Dad- Parkinson's Disease
Maternal grandmother- Reynaud's Syndrome
Maternal Grandfather- gall bladder issues (stones), stroke
Maternal cousins- hypothyroidism
Uncle- gall bladder issues (had it removed)
Paternal Grandmother- alzheimer's, stroke
Paternal Grandfather- died of stroke

And me with Crohn's :)
 
I am still amazed that Hypothyroidism still comes up so often when Crohn's and other autoimmune disease is involved.

In my twenties, I suspected I had this, just because of my low energy levels. I never thought i had anything else wrong with me other than that. My tests always come negative for this. I also have heard that it takes a real experienced endocrinologist to detect this condition.

I keep running into Hypothyroidism and Crohn's. There has to be some connection here that is being overlooked. Perhaps the immune dysfunction is linked to the Hypothyroidism. Just another possible angle.

Dan
 
Going on this pathogen kick and people talking about worms in their candy bars, what ever happened to that pig whip worm treatment that was suppose to be the next great treatment for Crohn's? I know it was happening in Germany or somewhere in Europe years ago.
 
pb4 said:
Fistulas can happen with crohn's because with CD the inflammation can affect the many layers of the intestinal lining (it doesn't with UC and this is why with UC fistulas generally don't happen) fistulas can also be an issue for those with diverticulosis as well (and so can bowel perforations).

Not all CDers get fistulas and there are some CDers that are prone to them specifically.

:)
Click to expand...

yes the inflammation process in the 4 linings of the GI tract is part of the reason but the fact that only certain CDers have this problem suggests 3 things: there are different pathogens involved in the disease process for each individual, genetics plays some type of role, and/or there are actually different types of CD with different underlying causes (pathogen related? :) )
 
Correct Brando....according to Dr. Kevin Rioux from the U of Alberta, in the past few yrs, advanced genetic techniques have allowed scientists to discover at least 9 different gene clusters that contribute to the development of IBD and define the severity and behavior of the disease over time. Some of these gene encode factors involved in recognition and defense against bacteria. Mutations in immune response genes may adversely affect how the immune system reacts to harmless bacteria and this probably contributes to the development of IBD.

And yes, there are fistulizing CDers as well as stricturing crohnies, I've even heard (though I'm not sure how accurate this info is) that some fistulizing crohnies don't always have inflammation issues but instead of main issues of dealing with re-occuring fistulas.

:)
 
Brando said:
yes the inflammation process in the 4 linings of the GI tract is part of the reason but the fact that only certain CDers have this problem suggests 3 things: there are different pathogens involved in the disease process for each individual, genetics plays some type of role, and/or there are actually different types of CD with different underlying causes (pathogen related? :) )
Click to expand...

From the reading I've been doing I really think these are some of the key questions that, when answered will illuminate many of the important mysteries of IBD. I'm really hoping that the Human Microbiome Project helps answer some of these questions.
 
Shadycat said:
A good point. Aslo keep in mind that many of us appear to be able to identify an event that may have "triggered" our disease. Many of these events are related to antibiotics that were not used until the 20th century. I guess you can argue whether the antibiotics are the cause or that prior to the use of antibiotics, simple bacterial infections often lead to death, thus many people with the genetic predisposition would have died before their Crohn's developed.
Click to expand...

exactly!!!
i cant help but think often that hey if i werent in this time....i wouldve died sometime before i was 9. and then i wonder if that is a good thing?
i mean of course, cause i am very glad im alive. but at the same time, we wonder why diseases are becoming more and more prevalent. each year theres more and more diagnoses (sp?) of so many diseases, but its because the people WITH the diseases can now survive, reproduce, and pass down the genes for the disease. THATS why theres more and more cases of it each year. we are in effect making sure that the genes for disease are preserved.
 
I totally agree with Dan. I have been trying to stop the Imuran since I'm planning to have children, so I went on the SCD diet. I've always had some success with antibiotics (Cipro and Flagyl), so I thought why not try a natural diet that aims at killing bad bacteria by starving them from their food (sugar and starches) and replacing them bygood bacteria from home made yoghurt. Well, now I'm on day 10 of SCd,a nd my symptoms are almost 90% gone! Coincidance, I think not. So many people are getting better on SCD and low carb diets, that surely diet and bacteria have a major role in Crohn's.
 
kello82 said:
exactly!!!
i cant help but think often that hey if i werent in this time....i wouldve died sometime before i was 9. and then i wonder if that is a good thing?
i mean of course, cause i am very glad im alive. but at the same time, we wonder why diseases are becoming more and more prevalent. each year theres more and more diagnoses (sp?) of so many diseases, but its because the people WITH the diseases can now survive, reproduce, and pass down the genes for the disease. THATS why theres more and more cases of it each year. we are in effect making sure that the genes for disease are preserved.
Click to expand...

So the cure for Crohns is nuclear annihilation? What kind of side effects does it have?
 
Has anyone of you read the book "Survival of the sickest"? Basically it talks about why some diseases have stayed in the gene pool, and teh reason is because the diseases persons were able to survive some plague or catstrophe that the normal person couldn't!!!

http://www.amazon.com/Survival-Sick...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241527750&sr=8-1

In this insightful book Dr. Sharon Moalem demonstrates how conditions that are considered unhealthy (such as hemochromatosis, diabetes, and high cholesterol), or even deadly in extreme cases, might actually put their carriers at an advantage in combating other life-threatening illnesses. For example, he explains that hemochromatosis, a disease that, if left untreated, will kill you, may have actually been a defense against the deadliest pandemic in history--the bubonic plague during the 14th century. It turns out that this genetic mutation, which continues to be passed down through generations, actually helped spare many lives at one point.
 
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
That's an interesting point of view Mazen (though, "Survival of the Sickest" sounds like an album I'd listen to really loud :) )

I wonder if Crohns (as an immunological disease) carries any resistance to other afflictions of sorts...(like fun?)...makes one think, I'll ask my GI when I see him soon.
 
One theory I read is that the bacteria that causes Crohn's is similar to the one that caused the one of the great plagues " don't remember which one" .

This similarity is why we react to the modern harmless varient. I think the evidence is quite thin for this theory, but it is interesting.

Dan
 
The reason why we react to harmless bacteria is because as discovered by Dr. Kathrine Siminovitch, there is a gene located on chromosome 5 which normally produces a protein that sits on the cell surface and controls movement of specific substances in and out of the cell. For people with crohn's this cell is altered so the gene produces a protein that functions improperly allowing toxins increased entry into the cell.

With this knowledge they are working on a med to correct this protien but it can take 10 yrs before it's ready for trials.

:)
 
Interesting discovery. How did she determine that we react to harmless bacteria, instead of harmful?

Her discovery may be part of the answer, but it does not appear to explain how a person can be symptom free for ten or twenty years and become symptomatic. Or how treatments other than immune suppressants can help since we are not altering genes in any way.

I am glad someone is working on a permanent solution. I will have to read up on this.

Dan
 
There are many other genes involved with crohn's which is why it's so complex, if the only gene involved with CD was the one on chromosome 5 they would have likely cured crohn's by now, with her discovery she's looking at creating a chemical that will retore normal function to the defective protein. There are many things involved with CD, it's one big puzzle that they are trying to figure out piece by piece.

Just like they know that smoking (including second-hand smoke) is a known trigger for CD, of course that doesn't necessarily mean it's the trigger for every CDer but they've somehow discovered (Dr. Kevin Rioux) that it is a known trigger.

:)
 
What a great thread. We should submit if for Nobel Prize consideration. . .

I'm convinced it's a bacterial/allergy problem and, as crohnies, we have some genetic mutation that disposes us to fight it ineffectively. The fact that it has become more prevalent makes complete sense to me. Consider the following:

1. Medication to treat symptoms exists today prolonging lives of crohnies which probably means, as Kello said, in early generations, we would all be dead by 9 and not reproduced.

2. Food/diet has changed enormously. More chemicals, more corn, more industrialized products in our food chain. Everyone should read the theory behind SCD. Makes complete sense. Kudos to anyone who follows it though since it's highly restrictive. I've adopted the Fenway version of SCD - i avoid complex carbs except when I feel like eating cake or candy.
 
There is also the possibility of CDers lacking a specific bacteria...

Researchers believe the lack of a specific bacterium in the gut may be a cause of Crohn's disease.

A shortage of naturally-occurring bacteria is thought to trigger the inflammatory gastrointestinal disorder by over-stimulating the immune system.

Now a French team has highlighted the bug, Faecalibacterium prausnitzii, which they show secretes biochemicals that reduce inflammation.

The study appears in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

CROHN'S DISEASE
Can affect any part of the gut
Most commonly affects the lower end of the small intestine - the ileum
Symptoms include, pain, ulcers and diarrhoea
Medication can relieve symptoms, but surgery to remove part of the gut may be required

The researchers, from the Institut National de la Recherche Agronomique, had already shown that patients with Crohn's disease have a marked deficiency in bacteria from the Clostridium leptum group.

Their latest work shows that F. prausnitzii - a major component of this group - accounts for a large part of the deficit.

Bowel surgery

The researchers found that Crohn's patients who underwent bowel surgery were more likely to experience a recurrence of the condition if they had low levels of F. prausnitzii.

And in experiments on cultured cells, they showed that liquid in which F. prausnitzii had been grown provided an anti-inflammatory effect.

The researchers said that if ongoing animal trials prove successful, human patients could benefit from a probiotic treatment with F. prausnitzii.

Dr Anton Emmanuel, medical director of the digestive disorders charity Core, called the study "exciting" and agreed it raised the possibility of a therapeutic "replacement" therapy.

"It would be interesting to see how this finding relates to the emerging body of evidence looking at genetic changes in some patients with Crohn's disease, with the known abnormal gene being one that codes for the body's ability to recognise foreign bacteria."

Dr John Bennett, chairman of Core, said there was growing evidence that micro-organisms combined with immunological weaknesses to either cause, or exacerbate Crohn's symptoms.

However, he said: "The gut contains a huge number and variety of organisms, and many of them have been investigated without any single one seeming to be entirely responsible."

Dr Bennett said scientists were testing the theory that harmful bacteria could be neutralised, or at least counter-acted, by preparations of beneficial "probiotic" micro-organisms, but as yet no definitive proof of their effect had been produced.

Professor Jonathan Rhodes, a consultant gastroenterologist from the Royal Liverpool Hospital, described the study as "interesting".

However, he said: "It is too early to tell whether this will lead directly to a new treatment as other probiotics have tended to produce good results in animal studies only to prove disappointing in clinical trial in Crohn's disease."

:)
 
sidetack for a sec-----Mazen you have a PHOTO!!!!

i love it! very cute :D
i love getting to see who people are
 
Quite a handsome couple! You do not look ill in the least.

I look ill even when I am healthy. that is one reason I do not have a photo. Plus my hair is Grey and I feel really old.

Dan
 
Thanks also Dan. I seem lucky not to look ill. Most people say "you don't look sick, why are you complaining", while I would be feeling terrible inside.... The only thing that shows is that I lose some weight because I have no appetite... I'm lucky that I have a very supportive wife; she's also now helping a lot with SCD, especially cooking :)
 
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I have never really looked into the SCD diet and do not really know the premise for it.

I just use some common sense as it applies to what feeds undesirable bacteria and yeast. Some of the criteria I use for diet roughly follows the points below.

Humans ate no amount of grain until farming became practical. Grain is a late comer to the human diet.

Humans are probably not well adapted to grain since it was not in their original diet in any meaningful amounts.

Humans ate mostly seasonal fruit and vegetables and lots of fish and meat. In another words a high protein diet with carbs from Fruit and vegetables. Grain is pretty much food to prevent starvation, since it is more easily stored than other forms of food.

Animals that eat grain do not have digestive systems like ours. It seems logical that grains are not really the best foods for humans although they are better than nothing if no other food is available.

Grains almost always have some degree of mold on them. Mold is not something beneficial to humans and may cause more problems for us than is currently known or recognized.

Your heritage, ancestry, and nationality probably play a role in what you should be eating. Your ancestors spent many generations eating a certain diet. Your genetics may predispose you to do better on foods your ancestors ate. That would be determined by where they lived and what food they had available for their normal diet. If they ate grains, it was probably to prevent starvation. You have to sort out what they ate because they had nothing else available to what they would have ate if given a choice.

Other than possibly Hawaiians and maybe a few other small groups of people, no one ate refined sugar or much sugar of any kind other than Honey, Fruit or Maple Syrup when in season. Sugary food certainly was not part of a normal diet and when it was part of a diet, it was for a short time based on seasonality. Fruits and Honey were largely seasonal foods.

I think this is important because people never have had a sugary diet until modern times. Eating sweetened cereal everyday for breakfast is a modern phenomena and not normal historically. When sweet food was eaten in the past it was for shorter durations. There was no real opportunity to breed the kind of bacteria and yeast that we can with our sugar and grain laden diet. The fact that the people of the past had seasonal diets points to a natural limiting of an overrun of any one type of bacteria. The diet varied enough to not over promote any particular bacteria. The diet left almost no room for bacteria dependent on sugar and yeast. Or modern diet almost guarantees overpopulation of both yeast and acidic bacteria that are normally not beneficial to humans.

A good example of how diet affects certain races of people is very obvious in our area. We have a fairly large American Indian population around us. When they ate their traditional diet not so long ago, they lived a long and healthy life, with the exception of diseases brought by white settlers. Some of these people lived over a hundred years earlier in this century.

Now, eating a western diet of high calorie carbohydrate based diet they have rampant diabetes and obesity problems. Their life span and quality of life is not nearly as good as it was one hundred years ago. I do not even think they had such a disease as diabetes until recently. It is painfully obvious that the modern Western diet is wreaking havoc on these people. If they went back to a diet that their ancestors ate, most all of these health problems would be very rare.

I would hazard to guess that the SCD diet takes some of these things into account, and probably more. Either way, I think it is safe to say that the more you limit grain and sugar from your diet, the healthier you will be for it.

Dan
 
yup you pretty much nailed it dan.

heres the theory the book explains:
since we cannot digest those foods that are complex sugars (grains, sugars, etc) they pass thru the digestive tract and feed the bacteria along the way. whereas the sugars in fruit and honey are simple sugars and need no breaking down to be absorbed.
as the bacteria is fed it grows and overtakes our intestines. to cope, our intestines produce more and more mucous to coat the intestine for protection. however, the abundance of mucous adds to our inability to digest and absorb properly as it also covers over those little....hair type things?...in the intestines that digest the food. this covering of the hair type things adds to our inablity to digest and break down the complex sugars that caused the problem in the first place.
hence the "vicious cycle". stop the complex sugars. kill the bacteria. lose the mucous. restore digestive ability.

i hope i explained that right.....
 
"Villi"...those hairy type things...singular is villus, which in Latin means "shaggy hair"...which I still find amusing. I wonder if I tell the disability people I have hairy intestines that would aid my case.

Dan, that is the premise I believe in if ever asked about the source of the obesity epidemic, on top of trans fats and "convenience foods".

My ancestors were Vikings or Scandinavians, so a lot of fish and meat, like yours (being Finnish)...though we could both probably skip the pillaging part, probably not part of the SCD...
 
It would be hard to fit in Pillaging between my work schedule, although it sound more exciting than Golfing.

I wouldn't know the proper way to Pillage either. Maybe an on-line course could point me in the right direction.

If Pillaging is to be done, you still have to get the Crohn's under control first. I have never heard of effective Pillaging being done while crapping yourself. It is embarrassing for yourself, and your victims should not be laughing at you while being Pillaged.

Yeah, we should probably skip that part.

Dan
 
haha you never know, if you are a scary pillager (is that a word?) in the midst of crapping your pants...the people who youre pillaging from (is that a word too?) might be all the more ready to comply!

i dont think the sight of an enraged Blackbeard as he messed his shorts would make me laugh...i would run for the hills

but therein lies another prerequisite in order to be a pillager- you have to be scary and intimidating.
dang it, no pillaging for me.
 
I could just tell them with soiled britches, as they gave a blank stare after I've burst in, "I'm so scary I scare MYSELF, Mwah hah ha ha ha!!!!"

Then they sh*t themselves too, and we all laugh and share some cider.

Ah, to be a Viking!!
 
LMAO!! im so scary i scare myself hahahah :D

just like billy madision taught us:"you aint COOOOL unless you [poo] yo pants!!"
 
Benson and Dan,
please don't start pilliging, one of your first main targets was Ireland and northern Scotland. We've been pilliged enough, thank you very much.... aahhh, the mental scars are still to be seen here..... ;)
 
I would be a pretty lazy pillager. Maybe on good day I could try pillage the town down the road.

Nothing as far away as Ireland, and Scotland would likely fire up the bag pipes and I would not be able to go up against that.

Dan
 
Hey there Pen. Thanks for the complements. Hope the VSL#3 is still working great with you and you beat this stupid Crohn's :)

As for Crohn's, now I'm almost 15 days on the SCD diet and seem to be doing pretty fine. I also started taking the Imuran day on, day off hoping to stop it soon.

As discussed, the SCD starves the bacteria in your gut by not feeding them disacharides which are hard to digest by the damaged villi in the intestines. Thus you stop the bacterial overgrowth and allow the intestines to heal. Homemade yoghurt provides friendly bacteris. It is basically an elemental diet, but with real food. What I eat nowadays is the following:

- Fish
- Chicken breasts
- Beef pates
- Eggs
- Boiled Carrots, spinach, zuchini, and pumpkin
- Ripe bananas, some peeled ripe fruits (pears, cantalope...)
- Ripe Avocados
- Homemade yoghurt and drained yoghurt
- Chedar Cheese
- Honey
- A little natural peanut butter
- Grape Juice
- Olive oil
- Fish oil supplement for the Omega 3


Hopefully as I feel better, I'll add more foods
 
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That seem's like a pretty complete diet Mazen. Sorry you've answered this already, but is there no Carbs in this diet? It seems very protein based.
 
dan- dont mean to butt in if your directing your question to maz, but heres what i know.

theres no COMPLEX carbs allowed on the diet. no bread, rice, pasta, refined sugar, etc, as these molecules need to be broken down into the simpler forms in order to be utilized.
however, SIMPLE carbs are acceptable meaning the carbs you find naturally in fruits, vegetables and honey. these are single molecules that need no breaking down into simpler forms, they are already as simple as it gets.
 
kello is right. no bread, no sugars, no potatoes - and there's also a list of other taboo foods that contain complex carbs.

i admire mazen for sticking to it. deleting bread from my diet is too hard and it's nearly impossible for me to eliminate all sugar. that said, i've adopted the fenway version and significantly cut my complex carb consumption. whether its meds or change in diet, something is working as i'm feeling much better these days. . .
 
I would speculate that the complex carbs take too long to digest and form sugars which feed bacteria and fungus such as yeast.

Mazen has a better understnding of the process, and is getting results which is the proof of concept.

I noticed quite some time ago, without an understanding why, that I feel better when I eat a high protien, low carb diet. I am glad that now there is a reasonable explaination why this suits me.

It is hard to avoid sugar. It is almost addiction like.

Dan
 
even harder when you're a cookie monster. :)

dan, i encourage you to read the book. you're spot on regarding the theory. good ole' wikipedia's explanation is here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_Carbohydrate_Diet

the reality is complex carbs are relatively new to human diet. i also think that chemicals and preservatives (20th century phenomena) don't help either.

but, i've noticed a huge improvement personally from having adopted my own version which incorporates elements of this diet. as i've reduced sugars and carbs, i've felt much better.
 
I altered my diet by choice (you are what youeat really holds true) I could eat all the junk I want and it wouldn't make me have pain or get D but I'm sure it still had a negative effect on my CD and overall health...it wasn't easy at first cutting out all the junk, processed and fast foods but I did it and survived quite well and probably better all the time.

:)
 
It's similar to the South Beach Diet in some ways, and very similar to a carb cycle that I'd do for trimming any fat.

You get used to it the longer you do it (restricting your diet), everyone can do it, it's just a matter of getting past the initial cravings.

I like to make my version of Swiss cheese and turkey rollups, no tortilla, just 2 slices of Swiss cheese wrapped around rolled up turkey breast, it's like a protein burrito with no carbs and tastes good too. About 30 grams of protein, just a couple hundred calories, etc...
 
Is this the basis of the Atkins Diet that was all the rage a few years ago?

I'd find it very hard to cut out my carbs, Pasta and potatoes are the stables of my diet.

Good luck with this Mazen, I wish I had your stamina.
 
Hi Dan. The Specific Card Diet is not a low carb diet like Atkins. You get lots of carbs from fruits (like bananas for example), veggies and honey; also homemade yoghurt and natural fruit juices have lots of carbs. You can also eat nuts and dates (if you tolerate them; I will start experimenting with little amounts of those next week). I admit its hard, but as you get used to it, you feel better in your intestines and you start eating more. Also you enjoy eating healthy food and avoiding junk, and starch that fills you up but with little nutritional value.

Please check the below site with important info on the diet:

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/
 
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:))) I guess you're much used to potatoes. But in my country we eat bread with everything and at every meal. Believe me it is hard, but in my case worth it......
 
I have a few relatives that were stationed there with the Irish Army and they loved the place, one cousin went back 4-5 times.

I think the days of our adventure holidays (anything over a 2-3 hour flight!!!) are numbered for a few years, but It's one of my to do places, also Egypt for diving.
 
Even if you just start tilting your diet in the right direction, it can help. Most people can not make a radical change over night.

I still eat bread and potatoes, but not all of the time, and in smaller amounts. It is not an all or nothing proposition. Gradually I try to move my diet in the fight direction. I can pretty easily get away from the bread and potatoes, but the sugar is a killer for me. It is probably the worst offender of them all.

Dan
 
Yeah, what Mazen said, it's not like Atkins, the South Beach Diet was a little more liberal than Atkins, in that it allowed the veggies and some fruits like the SCD does. My carb cycling is different too, but somewhat similar, because it limits artificial sugars and starchy stuff on most days, and focuses on lots of protein and healthy fats and fiber.
 
I don't eat much sugars, most of what I eat, I prepare fresh myself. So I suppose that's a start.
 
Hi Dan. Yeah, there were many Irish soldiers in the south of the country and everybody loved them. They helped a lot of people. Great guys!

Cutting sugar out of your diet is a great step. Maybe a second step would be stopping Gluten and wheat products and replace them with rice and potatoes.
 
Here is another article showing a bacteria found in soil and water causes a form of autoimmune disease of the liver:

Common bacteria activating natural killer T cells may cause autoimmune liver disease

http://esciencenews.com/articles/200....liver.disease

A bacteria commonly found in soil and water triggered autoimmune symptoms in mice similar to those found in an incurable liver disease called Primary Biliary Cirrhosis (PBC). Reporting their findings in the May 15 Cell Host & Microbe, the multi-institutional research team said injecting laboratory mice with the bacterium – Novosphingobium aromaticivorans – prompted activation of Natural Killer T (NKT) cells, which were critical to initiating autoimmune processes that led to liver disease. Besides pointing to a possible cause for PBC, the study also provides scientists a model that will enhance future research of this and other autoimmune disorders, said Jochen Mattner, M.D., a physician and researcher in the Division of Immunobiology at Cincinnati Children’s Hospital Medical Center and lead author of the study.
 
BWS1982 said:
You brew your own beer?
Click to expand...

I leave that job to Arther Guinness, St James’s Gate Brewery, Dublin.....!!!!

I'm half way there then Mazen.
I don't eat that much bread anyway, but like I said, I do eat a lot of pasta. I could cut that out very easily.
 
Mazen -
Two questions:
1. Where do you dig up all this research? Great stuff. What sites do you visit to keep up to date?

2. Honestly, how did you do it in terms of cutting out sugar? As Dan said, that's so daunting yet I know fundamental to SCD. Did you start cold turkey?
 
Hi fenway. Regarding your first question, many times I just stumble on these sites, or I follow a link posted in another thread and it leads me to some other topics. I also try to read many books on IBD, inflammation, and vitamines that I get intrigued by certain issues and go to the net searching for them.

For your second question; yes, I just dived right into SCD. I know it seems hard, but once you put your mind to it and start feeling better you'll hate the fooda you craved before. I have to admit I still crave bread and chocolate a lot, but I fight it.

The key is to find SCD legal foods you like, and stock them in your fridge or cupboard. In this way when you get hungry you always have something to eat. For the sweet tooth, there is a always honey and fruits and fruit juices, which seem to help. Also tea sweetened with honey is a lifesaver for me
 
I weaned myself off of sugar by substituting it with fruits and veggies (since we still need sugar to keep our glucose levels in check or we'd die) and using Stevia or honey rather than table sugar.

:)
 
i went on the scd cold turkey too and what saved my from the sugar cravings was honeycrisp apples.
they are soooo delicious and sweet and juicy. did they replace the oreo? of course not and belive me, i am (well not so much now) a cookie FIEND!
but eating an apple would take the edge off so i could get on with my life and not be dying thinking about the cupcake. it had to be honeycrisp though :) in fact, now that im post op and still avoiding raw fruits and vegs, im totally craving an apple and pushing away the cookies that i CAN eat! ah irony.
also you CAN make homemade icecream! ive never done it but ive heard its better than store bought. one of my fave desserts.

and heres a sweet lil recipe i made up to settle my dessert craving:
i found these packages of dehydrates apple slices at the store. i could find them online if anyone wants the name. anyways i put 1 pkg of those with some butter, honey, cinnamon, apple cider, and a little nutmeg- into a bowel and pop it in the microwave till everythings hot and the apples are reconstitued. you could probably even add some crunch--maybe some walnuts or something? if you wish
i swear it tastes just like apple crisp minus the topping. soooo yummy! and you wouldnt even know it was dehydrated apples too
 
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I eat dried Apricots, because I like them and they have some Iron in them. They are a poor substitute for a Snicker Bar, but will do in a pinch.

Dan
 

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