Faecalibacterium Prausnitzii (F. Prausnitzii)

[kiny]

This is the commensal people keep talking about related to CD.

http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ajg2012335a.html

Richard Hansen MBChB1,2, Richard K Russell MBChB, PhD3, Caroline Reiff PhD4, Petra Louis PhD5, Freda McIntosh BSc5, Susan H Berry1, Indrani Mukhopadhya PhD1, W Michael Bisset MBChB, MD6, Andy R Barclay MBChB, MD3, Jon Bishop MBChB3, Diana M Flynn MBChB, PhD3, Paraic McGrogan MBChB3, Sabarinathan Loganathan MBChB6, Gamal Mahdi MBChB6, Harry J Flint PhD5, Emad M El-Omar MBChB, MD1 and Georgina L Hold PhD1

Am J Gastroenterol advance online publication 9 October 2012

Microbiota of De-Novo Pediatric IBD: Increased Faecalibacterium Prausnitzii and Reduced Bacterial Diversity in Crohn's But Not in Ulcerative Colitis

 

[wild_one353]

i recently came across this study as well and was disappointed. hoping that this alone could be a full explanation for crohn's disease, perhaps not, or perhaps still yes, people make mistakes all the time, i will just say that it is now much less probable that reduced diversity in f. prausnitzii is a full explanation for crohn's disease.

 

[kiny]

"In particular, rifaximin has been shown to modulate the colonic microbiota of patients with Crohn’s disease by increasing the concentration of Bifidobacteria and Faecalibacterium prausnitzii[18]."

 

[ellie]

Just "thinking out aloud" here (no scientific backup!).. We always tend to think "high fibre" is problematic in IBD because it "irritates" a susceptible bowel. Maybe instead it provides a nidus in which harmful bacteria can grow and and reproduce to harmful levels?

 

[wild_one353]

Just "thinking out aloud" here (no scientific backup!).. We always tend to think "high fibre" is problematic in IBD because it "irritates" a susceptible bowel. Maybe instead it provides a nidus in which harmful bacteria can grow and and reproduce to harmful levels?

I believe you are somewhat correct on thinking that some fiber can feed bad bacteria and that is a physical mechanism on how that makes some symptoms in crohns worse. but the nature of these relationships isnt so simple or cut and dry, soluble fiber simultaneously makes crohns symptoms worse as well as better depending on certain other conditions present.

soluble fiber is generally fermented by good bacteria to create certain substances the lower intestinal ph and make it less likely any pathogen can outgrow the existing good bacteria, that is generally what happens in a normal healthy gut. but in crohns/ibd both good and bad seem to get their fair share of the soluble fibers, the good ones never seem to be able to dominate.

insoluble fiber, in my own observations, has only positive effects for crohsn disease, no no negative effects.


my own personal theory still suspects that a reduced diversity in butyrate producing bacteria whether it be f prausnitzzi or another type, is what is solely responsible for all the features of ibd, there is evidence that exists that both supports this theory and contradicts it, but i believe there is overwhelmingly more that supports it, so i cannot abandon my position just yet, but i am ready to if the right evidence comes to my attention. this above study somewhat contradicts my veiws, but isnt enough for me to completely change my mind yet.

 

[edcolumbiaMD]

I find it more strange that , everyone that has crohns has high ASCA or AMCA

both are a form of yeast.. ASCA is bakers brewers yeast and AMCA is candida albicans,,

If your reactive to them its more likely your overgrown by them.... I ve been reading and studying this area for over 2 years now.. If your over ran by these your good bacteria will be LOW... on top of that.. all the treatment we crohns people receive only make things worse... you take antibiotics which KILLwhat ever good bacteria you had... and bad. Immune drugs which turn off the system from attacking and working right... If you look close you will see bad bacteria will grow back quicker after antibiotic use... Ones diet tends to be alot of sugar-- in different forms digested SUGARS--milks , yogurt, grains, starches- corn rice potatos etc.. all what people get reactive to. They can be reactive to many other things which could be reactions from die off as certain foods them self are anti bacterial or anti fungal. making you flare as well..... Ive been there

To me I find it strange , its almost like there missing the key factor.. I ve spent lots of money used my self as a test bunny and documented everything as Im an engineer... I ve done every test under the sun .. I found for my self.. I had LOW LOW good bacteria when I was really sick -- using greatplans labs OAT and Compstool. At the same time my YEAST was high as hell.. I did the LABCROP test 162045 almost all gastro s are lazy to run or never heard of it.. IBD EXPANDED PANEL which tests AMCA ASCA ALCA ACCA each antibody is something if high your reactive to it..Many with crohsncan have one or two high... FOR me when I was sick i had AMCA out the roof.. AMCA = candida NO dam doc told me.. they dont know..they dont tell you shit on diet.. and half the stuff they tell you to eat makes you flare.. ALCA is sugars and mine was high SUGAR feeds yeast ALCA=antilaminaribioside carbohydrate antibodies and AMCA =antimannobioside carbohydrate antibodies So what I did was regulate my diet to this... I did the ELISA ACT BIO the foods that came back in my blood matched the antibodies that were high SUGARS and STARCHES.. I removed them I idid the crazy entrolab gut tests. The same thing here but some others came back to in the GUT.. some were the same ..here I found more more. SUGARS and STARCHES...bad bacteria eat sugars so do YEASTS. I stopped eating them focused on the AMCA canidida and how to lower it.. One is dont eat what it eats SUGARS- milk grains and STARCHES. Then found what kills it olive leaf extract, caplyric acid , coconut oil....cooked and eat it spoon full . oil of oregano. Grapefruitseed extract. Many of these also kill bad bacteria. I rotated them. I retested the IBD EXPANED PANEL which no doc uses or retests. They only use it to tell you you have crohns,, Both my numbers went down!!! So I followed on eating this way breakfast lunch and dinner... It was hard. I got better.. every 4 to 6 months I retested and It went down.. At the same time I ate REAL german sauerkraut - cant have vinegar-- yeast eat it.. Cabbage and salt only.. Then took all my vitamins and suppliments and trashed all them.. I bought ones free of all the shit I was reactive to.. SOY, SUGARS, GRAINS, STARCHES , rice potatos etc.. you can buy stuff you just have to look hard. I added in renew life 50 billion probiotics its free from all this crap... I retested great plan s labs again and all my good bacteria rose.. at the same time... my yeast levels are almost gone... I FEEL GREAT.. i dont have any problems I poop normal.. I never knew what normal was.. My digestion is great... My blood work is good , my vit d hangs at 55 I use a SOY free vit d3 Im sure everyone on here didnt look or think about that--they all have soy in them... I only found one brand nutigold on amazon. I feel like I beat a loud drum and no one hears me. . I did the american gut project google it 99.00 -- looks at a dna scan of all the bacteria in you... It takes about 4 to 6 monts to get your results I just got mine and I now have less types of bacteria that cause inflammation. I have strain as well that are related to you gut barrier very HIGH. the avg person when i google it has 3 to 5 percent my is HIGH 13 percent.. to me its pretty strange.. I documented my life in testing from day one --I googled all my bacteria , which seems to be ok... the gut one in mouse studies -- when you have immune dieases its low... when they injected it in mice they got better..

Ill share anything I have to back up what im saying ... I look on here and I see all these other symptoms people have... there not your gut.. I had alot of them too and they cleared once I got my gut in order... I still eat a limited diet , pretty much paleo / low starch But i feel great my sinus also cleared... when i did this my nose ran for 6 months one side and 12 months on the other.. its been 2 years now and My sinus is great I can breath again...

I know I have a different spin , I just hope people really look or try some of these tests.. To me they work if used together and the right way.

feel free to ask me anything... Yes I felt like shit when I first did it.. and I did flare... to me it was the body dumping out what shouldnt have been there...I had piles of mucus and stuff coming out... my stool went from green to yellow..to clay to normal... from what i read and learn when your bile ducts open they flush...which can get blocked y bacteria and yeast

I say this .... when I asked my GI to test me for osteoporosis at 39 he laughed at me.. I said many in my family had type 2 diabetes or crohns I want to get checked.... It came back in my neck hip and lower back.. though my treatment... when i started antifugal supplements I got pain in each of these areas... My doc and I were lost.. i ASKED from doing research on antifungal drugs if I could get diflucan for the blood-- kills yeast in blood -- if your gut leaks then its in your blood... and NYSTATIN for the gut..He never heard on one of them...and said never really gave them out be careful. I took these for 3 weeks .. week and a half for each.. I did have some pain in those areas... I dont like to take meds but i know it did something . Today I have no problems that ive had my whole life... migraines, sinus, joint pain , stiff neck, stiff back, crohns side pain, hemorrhoids, nasal drip , chocking in my sleep ,snoring. The only thing i have is osteoporosis and Im working on that - my metobites from my great plains test were 1000 a year ago one year later they are 1700. all those things I said are symptoms of yeast overgrowth.. Yeast candida can also get in your bones...

I still eat coconut oil.....for cooking... I take krill oil, flax oil, free of all craps and foods im reactive to.. I take b complex 50 mg and 50 billion renew life same there free of stuff and a 4000iu vitd 3 free of soy lanolin based with olive oil

every so often every two months or so Ill take some caprylic acid -- yeast killer or drink a glass of water with grapefruit seed extract drops in it

never have a problem i just tested my IBD expaned panel again last week and waiting for my results.... be happpy to show them
Eddie

 

[kiny]

I find it more strange that , everyone that has crohns has high ASCA or AMCA

both are a form of yeast.. ASCA is bakers brewers yeast and AMCA is candida albicans,,

I guess.. but..

*not everyone with crohn's has a positive ASCA test
*it is possibly just antigen cross-reactivity
*many other diseases with intestinal lesions are positive for ASCA
*once the bowel heals those ASCA scores change

 

[edcolumbiaMD]

My point mine was Amca

You cant heal.....if your reactive to any of the antibodies
Google and research the 5 antibodies you ll see almost every one has one or more of tbem
My point is.....no one looked at amca yet wanted to force drugs on me which were wrong...
Yeah the immune supressents would have turned off my system not to react...and yeah the inflammation drugs would maybe work and shrink it.....but they didnt get to the cause...




Have you done an ibd expanded panel.....try it what do you have to loose
The thing that worked for me was oppiste antifungals not antibiotics. Youll never build up protective bacteria on antibiotics

If most of everyone is reactive to bread bakers yeast..asca
Or amca which from what I find no one has tested here.....

 

[kiny]

I understand.
Why I question wheter ASCA is relevant is because it is not reliable, and it is seen in other diseases like intestinal TB.

http://www.jpgmonline.com/article.asp?issn=0022-3859;year=2007;volume=53;issue=3;spage=166;epage=170;aulast=Ghoshal

Baker's yeast is not relevant to TB at all, yet these people have positive ASCA scores.

 

[edcolumbiaMD]

Research them....they dont lie...the studies are all over the net
If your high and reactive dont you think there a reason

Leave your bread out for a month tell me what it looks like???
Bread use to be made in3 to 4 hrs it use to digest it self as the starter

Today we make bread in 35 min in a factory from commerical yeast in a packet..
Not trying to be negative....but theres alot that points that way

What does it eat...when you made it the old way it fermented it self and ate the sugars

 

[edcolumbiaMD]

How do you know its not.....have you research all the things that yeast do

Im not going to fight here....you ll always have what you have if you always do what you do...

Look at what the drugs do...we need them in bad cases..

Read up on fugus my friend it will ...make you have a different out look...

Test your self.....why do medical never look this direction. .look at the ex fda guy who runs the great plans lab....read up on him ...why he left the fda...

Makes you wonder.....try the ibd expanded panel from lab corp if your insurance covers it..

If your over run by yeast tour bacteria will never repopulate..you should be roughly 80 percent
Bacteria 20 percent yeast.......look at your diet...if tour over run you balance will be tipped the other direction

Sorry for type o s on cell

 

[kiny]

If your high and reactive dont you think there a reason

Maybe. But like I said in the first reply, yeast IgG cross react.

Different antibodies can react to a single antigen. It's not a simple A-> B relationship, especially not with common antigens like yeast.

 

[kiny]

If you want a good example of the cross reactivity, some ppl are allergic to some kinds of foods, because they are allergic to pollen.

Now the food has absolutely nothing to do with pollen, but because a substance in the food has a similar form of the pollen structure, the immune system responds to the food, even though you aren't anywhere near pollen.

And if you check those people's blood for pollen antibodies, there will be antibodies to pollen in their blood even though they aren't coming into contact with pollen..but they're eating food with a similar structure of pollen.

This same thing happens with yeasts.

 

[edcolumbiaMD]

Let me lay it out simple.... You go to the allergist to get tested... Im sure you did???
right?? you get tested They test you for IgE antibodies in your prick test.. or maybe you go further IgE caprast small blood test but sent out to a blood lab to look under a microscope..these are instant allergies. Many people with crohns and or other IBS problems are thrown under the bus and told you are reactive to nothing have a nice day try removing food and make a journal (but theres a problem with that)

You can have a reaction up to 3 days after you eat something, you can also have the same reaction in your GUT from the IGE antibody not seen in blood but picked up on fecal testings

iF YOU GET NO WHERE.....
you can test all the gluten tests...... which many of us test negative for.....

Now if you again get now where you can test HLA disease associtation
which many are postive for but almost all docs DONT TEST FOR.....
If your postive--- you should genetic tesedt which is the HLA DQ area .... theres HLA DP and HLA DR
In the HLA DQ area you can see if your carring genes for gluten ... I myself carry 4 which is not good. that doesnt mean I will get celiac -- i dont test positive for it... I also carry two for type 2 diabetes.. i dont have that... maybe ill get it... everyone in my family many had colitis , crohns or type 2 thru the family tree starting 1890

So now you know that.... you can test other antibodies IBD expaned panel is another
ASCA ACCA ALCA ASCA ------ IGG

odds are almost all crohns people react....to one or more they all mean something...

AMCA= candida ASCA- yeast bakers beer.. ALCA - sugars ACCA - crustation shell fish.. give or take on these just basic example
you can move on ... to ELISA ACT BIO---many go here (WITH MANY DIEASES AFTER GETTING NO WHERE with docs) i myself.... which tests ALL of these at the same time for reactons... IGM IGG IGA tcell and immune complex.. testing food and or yeast in the blood.. if you like

This is not the same as cheap useless IGG testing you see on the net!!!!!


You can then test enterolab IGE FECAL --- for antibodies in the gut

Between these you can get alot of answers......what your reactive to...and change your diet... it is said once your gut is fix many of these can be re introduced back in almost like a baby learning to eat for the first time...( ive seen this happen with me)

NOW to your gut--- if you have lost your gut barrier bad bacteria and OR yeast gets in
from maybe food???? to many antibotics ,,, a bad meal, eating to much bad food (SUGARS) causing your yeast to over grow.. This is usually the start of peoples problems

if you lost your barrier--- what gets in they say YEAST first as they live deep behind all the mucus... when they have over grown from steriods,,, NSAIDS.. too much sugar... then all the bacteria have there party and get in..... then food proteins...

once there in there in your blood stream .. you react in different ways
until your get the infection under control....close the gut , you cant address building back the barrier... if your over ran with yeast.. this will NEVER happen....look at many of the symptoms people have...Look out side studies on just bacteria Many of course (people) are a mess from bad bacteria to.. so antibotics.. so they you start the process over...kill everything.... no good bacteria they die too what ever you had.. yeast over run..... alot of your good bacteria NEVER COME BACK

you need the meds to help heal etc....you get stuck in a circle... you find meds that work over time you need to switch as they stop working..You need fiber but you eat it and flare.... With out fiber.... your never going to rebuild your gut bacteria fiber is fertilizer for good bacteria..( most has been killed from antibiotics) good bacteria make short chain fatty acids. which make protective good bacteria... natural antibotics against bad bacteria and change the ph so bad bacteria and yeast cant flourish

For me I found the cycle... and can show it too you.. in all my testing.. I understand medical insurance doesnt pay... people dont have the money... Why ive take it to do a 2 year study on my self to write a book showing each step and what happen to me....

today... I can show you when I was sick... my cholesterol was low... you need cholesterol to heal today its higher... dont fall for the 200 score.. I can talk for an hr on that

I can show my gut bacteria low.... when i was sick.. High with bad bacteria and HIGH with yeast... my ALCA was high-- sugar which feed my bacteria and yeast.. My yeast was high AMCA -candida I addressed the two killing and raising things in testing and today Im great... no allergies , no gut problems and no headches , no sinus drip or problems , no joint pain , no hemorrhoids

Ive heard it all...... its told bad you didnt live near me I d love to present it to you..
there alot more then then just bacteria and taking the meds...

all above is just basic terms i used and explained

DOCS do not look at yeast at ALL-- Read up on the director at great plans..
mental illness , ADHD , gut problems etc in his advanced research and many others show everyone of these people with HIGH YEAST and Clostridia bacteria... the funny part.. thats what I had.......

 

[edcolumbiaMD]

meds are a tool.... they dont fix you.. they help you in the process of healing

As well... for some odd reason I can now eat alot of the foods that bugged me before... now that my good bacteria has been raised.. shown in follow up testing double.. the yeast is gone shown in follow up testing a year later

I learned ( in research)that when your immune system is compromised , the protein in gluten looks like the protein in candida... and the immune system out of wack cant tell the difference.. Again no one tests AMCA rarely and when they do they dont do anything with it.. they dont do anything with ASCA as well

my american gut project results--- show my gut bacteria high in this amount
Akkermansia 13.2 heres a good read on it I dont have mucus now as well

?????????? i feel good ,, no symptoms... I eat a shit load of veggies they talk about... when i was sick i couldnt Please take the time to read the links you seem to like studies

the avg person has 3 to 5 percent of this.. I know I was low on all good bacteria a year before

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/05/13/the-mucus-lover-that-stops-mice-from-getting-fat/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130515113744.htm
http://calorierestrictiondietplan.c...ews/a-gut-microbe-that-helps-you-lose-weight/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23804561

http://americangut.org/ My results NOW.
try it lets see what you have in your gut would be an interesting test????


Genus Bacteroides 37.3% Genus Serratia 3.8% 0.19% 20x
Genus Parabacteroides 20.1% Family 0319-6G20 0.1% 0.00% 43x
Genus Akkermansia 13.2% Genus Bilophila 0.6% 0.17% 4x
Genus Serratia 3.8% Family Alteromonadaceae 0.0% 0.00% 10x