Government Controlled Health Care - Whats your Experience?

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Congress here in the US is pushing through the health care legislation that will force everyone to have either employee based or government based health insurance. I know there are many here from the UK and other countries that have government controlled healthcare. I want to know what their experience is with their system.

Are you able to see a doctor when you need to?
Do you feel you get the best healthcare possible?
Do you get the best medication possible?
Are you able to get care on a timely basis?

Any other thoughts or comments will be welcome.

Dan
 
I am happy to hear about the NHS and other systems world wide. I hope that this won't become a bash America thread. Our country is at a pivotal moment in it's history.
 
I have been vocal about how I feel, so that doesn't need to be reiterated, but I have to state that I feel Kuwabara's post makes me very relieved to be reminded we are not as hated as I keep reading. I belong to many international communities online and it's horrid what people say about "Yanks" because of a few shortsighted, egotistical idiots with loud mouths. I hate it when I see fellow Americans saying or doing the EXACT thing that makes us hated. I can't stand to be in such a "hated" nation, what the hell did I ever do? Thank you Kuwabara. :)

Gandhi once slyly said in response to "What do you think of Western Civilization?"...."I think it would be a good idea"...

I don't want that image or that burden any longer.

I think if implemented soundly and justly, a public option would work fine, it just has to be done right, no different than any other type of reform or overhaul, the fundamentals will make or break it. For the most part, it seems "other" systems work fine in other countries, we need a change, lets put two and two together....I cannot understand anyone who is happy with the status quo here in the US with healthcare and insurance, either they are unaware of the real situation, or they work for the insurance companies.

My colonoscopy cost $9,998 in total in June, that is ridiculous. My step cousin had $300,000 in bills when she died 1 year ago from a couple weeks in the hospital while they tried to save her life due to heart complications.

I'm tired of paying 20% of my income to medical costs, and I'm tired of the xenophobic views from paranoid people who are judging a system they have yet to be in the midst of during hard times.
 
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Kuwabara said:
Obviously dentistry and the opticians are not covered

Well... that would explain the notoriously bad teeth found there in the UK :ycool:

Dan
 
Well, it sounds like the docs need to make a case for it, that it warrants the cost. That can be interpreted many ways, but hopefully it's not very exploitable or much of a battle to fight. DanMan from Ireland has said some things that are even more attractive regarding medicinal coverage. I've read and heard my mom corroborate that the pharmaceutical companies are for the public options, because it brings them new customers.
 
Misspopcorn -don't worry I'll defend the American people to the hilt - America is the land of some of the very best and the very worst in human nature. So many of my favourite people in this world are American - Bobby Kennedy being the pick of them.Any country that produces South Park,The Simpsons & Woody Allen deserves to be defended! Oh and 'The Wire'..the greatest TV show ever!

BWS you're welcome mate- Since Obama came to power the emphasis towards the U.S has definetley shifted, I think I speak for a lot of Europeans when they wonder how a man as stupid as George Bush can become President.Twice. That was the root cause of Anti-Americanism in this decade. I was welling up(nearly crying) when Obama was elected and I'm not American - but when I saw Joe Biden's kids and Obama's kids on the stage in Chicargo on that night. All i could think about was Martin Luther King's speech of children of different races coming together regardless of their backgrounds. I just hope that the small minded people BWS eludes to don't put an end to Obama too like they did with the Kennedy's and MLK.Obama's in the middle of the difficult process of rehabilitating the U.S.

I remember seeing Obama on Letterman and his point was simple regarding healthcare - you spend the most by a long shot and yet unlike other first world countries you don't cover everyone. ( I think you're 33rd in the world for healthcare on some UN list or something). So his point was simply whatever system we choose we will be doing the right thing from both a) a moral standpoint(how many of these so called Christians denying their fellow brothers and sisters healthcare on the basis of how much it will cost them - what would have Christ though of that?) and b) whatever system you choose- it will be cheaper. Its just that simple. And its not necessarily the fact that something that is run by the Government is necessarily bound for inefficiency/poor management.

Its like in this country the Railways were privitized. The other week we had our first £1000 train fee. From somewhere in the very southwest of England up to the North of Scotland would cost you a £1000 on the train. You could fly the same distance for about £20. All the private operators run monopolies on certain lines and can charge what they like more or less and come up with excuses like the cost of fuel,track improvements etc. to justify the hefty prices. And remember that your education is socialized but you do not apply the same critical criteria to educatioon as you would do to a 'socialized' medical system. Because it doesnt come with the same 'Communist' 'socialist' scary left wing undertones that the right pepetuates about European systems of healthcare.

I think the major problem with the U.S is education. European societies don't allow so many people to fall through the net. We try to rehabiliate the poor and help them improve themselves. Whilst it costs us more, it stops us from having a glut of the poor and the ignorant shouting over the more informed elements of society. It comes back to the major fallasy of the American dream - we can't all be millionaires. But American capitalism is so cut throat - if you fail,you fail and you will suffer for that failure throghout your life.

One other thing I dont get about America - how hard you guys work! How much holiday do you get a year? Its something daft like 10 days isn't it?Generally we get between 25-30.
 
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Peaches - 88% of prescription items are dispensed free of charge. No red tape here.

Those exempt include:

Children under 16, pregnant women, people over 60, young people in full-time education, people in receipt of certain benefits such as Income Support or Jobseekers' Allowance and people suffering from specific conditions, such as certain types of physical disability, diabetes, or epilepsy, for which they hold a valid exemption certificate.

If you live in Wales or Scotland you don't pay anything either - its free there.

Also if you do pay you don't have to do it straight away - you can get a card and you pay in a month's time -which gives you time to work out if you are exempt or in some way to get help to pay the bill. Bare in mind however that the basic prescription charge is £7 - about what $4

http://www.politics.co.uk/briefings-guides/issue-briefs/health/nhs-prescription-charges-$366605.htm

God I love my country.(Yorkshire)

Do you understand now why we get so frustrated that you can't see the light!

I've had a flexi sigmoidoscopy,a colonoscopy,an MRI scan,a CAT scan,I'm having a Barium meal Thurs,X rays,countless blood tests and i've had my appendix out. How much did I pay - Nothing.

P.s Dan you're right about the teeth. Its all the tea we drink. I haven't been to the dentist in years. Not all of us have teeth like Austin powers though - mainly the women. Congrats on your young one by the way - I saw the scan!
 
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The cost of health care is quite a different problem than universal coverage. If we get universal coverage, I seriously doubt that the cost will be significantly reduced.

In order to pass, many special interest groups have to be satisfied, and since hardly any of them are screaming right now, the fix is already in. We will have one of the most expensive universal coverage programs in the world.

Health care is not free anywhere. You simply pay for it in taxes. Our tax rate is far less than any country with government run health care. You will see a significant increase in taxes in the U.S. to pay for it. Nothing wrong with that but anyone thinking you are getting free health care is mistaken. We pay for it now, we will pay for it then. Everyone that has health care pays for it.

The solution for our country will likely not be the same as what works in other countries. Our political structure, culture, and history is not the same, and we do not think the same. Nor do other countries think like us. Even Canada who is in close proximity has a different culture.

Our country was based on the rights of the individual, which is not a concept understood well outside our country. I would not expect most people from a European country to understand the U.S. culture and the health care problem and why it is so contentious. I do not understand the concept of a Queen either, but if a country wants to support one, that is fine with me. It makes no sense to me, but as long as I do not have to have one, I am happy.

The history of government programs in the U.S. is also filled with failed systems, or systems on the brink of failure. I see no reason why this one will be a stellar exception to the rule.

There needs to be a solution to our health care problem. I just do not believe the U.S. government has the ability to provide it.

Dan
 
Ah yes Dan is right but I think the point is that its free at the point of delivery.I should have made that point. But the moral essential is that its based on your need to be treated rather than your ability to pay.

You contribute monthly via national health insurance. I can't say how much that is because the calculation for them is extremeley complicated but I believe if you earn 20K you can expect £500 of that a year to go to the NHS. Don't quote me on that though!

I'm pretty sure that if every other First World Country can have there healthcare costing less than 10% of GDP than the U.S can do it.

The U.S's culture of the individual is precisley the problem.It individual to a mascohistic degree and its to the cost of the wider society The rich get richer,the poor get poorer. the uninsured die, the insured don't give a monkeys. Trust me Europeans understand the rights of the individual - read the European Human Rights Act(2000) - but we also understand that with Rights come responsibilities. Like the responsibility to help our fellow human beings who are ill or unemployed. There is a greater good, a responsibility to promoting a better society.

We recognize for instance that the responsibility of public safety is greater than the individual's need for a firearm.

I guess I probably can't fully understand the American mindset but I would like to believe I have a firm grip on the history and culture of your country.

I understand your cynicism Dan - but personally I think the American people are at their greatest when they are cohesive and optimistic - look at the Alphabet agencies of Roosevelt that helped get the U.S out of the 30's recession, the Civil Rights Movement,The Space Race,WWII,and just last year the optimism to believe that a black man could be President. Perhaps the same fevour could create some great new system that it suited towards American culture.

p.s Re the Queen! I'm a Republican myself although there are not many of us around(although I think its like Athiests- there's loads of us around but they don't really bang on about it/there not organised). I guess she aint bad, she has no power and only acts as a International Representative and as a tourist magnet.
 
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I think the deficiencies of yore and the downfalls of past administrations or mindsets can be set aside. I don't like to think that just because other government-run programs are arguably flawed that one with a whole new mindset is destined for failure too. I'm not cynical like that because of the changes we have instilled and employed (yes that's an Obama statement). I just don't see things going down the crapper on the basis of history alone only because we don't have the same people at the helm anymore. The very same people who are now at the helm are some of the most vocal people on what's wrong with other programs in the first place, I think they are cognizant of shortcomings and drawbacks. :)

The fact that I'd pay out through income is a welcome facet, I'm paying out of my income and fighting tooth and nail to make headway in my life as it is, I doubt it will be more expensive from all that I've read and heard, seeing as how now I have to set up payment plans to afford f*cking bloodtests and colonscopies. You know a system is flawed when someone has to set up a program to finance and pay off a diagnostic test. :voodoo:

The system is so f'd up, I don't think anyone has the power and pull to fix it but the government, so I'll give them the reigns at this point, because the next most powerful entity is probably the insurance companies and they've destroyed their candidacy for such responsibilities.
 
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imisspopcorn said:
I hope that this won't become a bash America thread.

i wouldn't bash america over it, i just feel sorry for my fellow sufferers that have to go through all that extra hassle:(


in australia, we have public & private health care.

private care gives you choice of hopital, doctors, private rooms, and if surgery isnt life threatning, you can still get it done pretty much straight away. after you leave the hospital, you still get a bill with a lot of Private health cover??? why, i dont know.....

i'm in the public health care. i pay nothing for almost everything.

51 day stay in hospital a couple of years ago, including time in an ICU ward (much higher bed prices), masive surgery, all drugs (while there) supplied, 4 specialists (2x gastros, rhumo, dietician) = $0 =you've no idea how much stress that removes from your recovery and mental well being.

doctors appointmets - $30
my doctors appointments (due to serious illness) = $0

virtuallly all drugs are on the PBS system (excluding infliximab & some rhumo drug i really really want) are all capped at ~ $30

if somethings not life threatening, and your on the public system, then you have to wait a while (not ages tho). i.e. really bad back that needs medical work done to it, you may be at home in bed for a couple of months waiting for free surgery.

very few docs only do just Private work. i got the exact same doctors as everyone else does.



welcome the change america, you've no idea how good it will be.
:)
 
oh, and not long ago i learnt that in aus, people with crohnic conditions that affect the teeth (pred ruined my teeth, along with my bodies inability to process calcium these days), that we're entitled to $4000 worth of dental work every year for free.
 
Whilst I can praise our system to the hilt - you can certainley find negative stories about the NHS - its a institution comprised of fallible human beings after all. However these stories will not be of the poor and sick being unable to get healthcare. It will be a complaint about having to wait for an operation or perhaps a dirty ward something or of that nature.

Ultimatley I cannot communicate the dignity the service provides for every man woman and child in this country.

Anyway I'll leave you with a song that is an anthem of the working class/socialist movement in this country.Night all!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFsneyMNLvw

'Libraries give us power
Then work came and made us free
But what price now, for a shallow piece of dignity?'

'We don't talk about love
We only want to get drunk
And we are not allowed to spend
As we are told this is the end'
 
Thanks for the backup Jed - I needed some Commonwealth cavalry there pal!
I'm getting my remicade infusions free so i presume all the immunosuppressant type drugs are too. Perhaps someone can shed some light on this?

You can go private in this country too if you can't stand our smelly communist doctors!

Anyway now I'm defo off to bed, Night!
 
What do you figure you pay monthly?....Just curious so I can compare it to what I pay for private. Out here we have a medicare tax so we can see exactly how much goes into the pot ,so to say. As well as a social security tax.

Is there a percentage taken out of your earnings, do people who earn more money pay a higher percentage? I want to know the nitty gritty details. I think that is what is most concerning...We have no idea where this money is coming from to pay for this plan...(Well, we know it's coming from us)
 
imisspopcorn said:
What do you figure you pay monthly?....Just curious so I can compare it to what I pay for private. Out here we have a medicare tax so we can see exactly how much goes into the pot ,so to say. As well as a social security tax.

Is there a percentage taken out of your earnings, do people who earn more money pay a higher percentage? I want to know the nitty gritty details. I think that is what is most concerning...We have no idea where this money is coming from to pay for this plan...(Well, we know it's coming from us)
They will probably bond it so our kids, kids, kids, kids, kids get stuck with the bill.
 
heres the australian nitty gritty, i'm pretty sure all the amounts your looking for will be in there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(Australia)

oh, and forgot to mention, some drugs have certain markers you need before you can get them for free.

i.e. imfliximab, remicade etc etc. you need to score certain pain markers & inflamation markers etc etc then you'll get the drugs free of charge (instead of the $10,000 for 3 months or whatever it is).


i got unlucky:( they almost had me on it, but then i went downhill to quick and had to go into surgery. after that i didnt need it anyway, so meh.

but yeah, you can get any drug free if you really need it.

tho some markers are just stupid. theres some bone drug i want to help heal all the damage i've done to my bones with pred. its really damn expensive, but to get it free, one of the markers is that you break a bone doing something that should never cause a break.. i.e. brushing teeth or something silly.... even with awesome health care, some thing will always be stupid......
 
farm said:
They will probably bond it so our kids, kids, kids, kids, kids get stuck with the bill.

no hidden agenda's, no demons waiting in the mailbox for you here. can only hope you get the same.
 
I hope it is like yours Jed, but I don't trust our government at all. There is always a hidden agenda in the fine print of anything that looks this good.
 
"If you are an employee under pension age, you have to pay Class 1 national insurance contributions on part of your earnings. The amount you pay depends on how much you earn. You might not have to pay any contributions if your earnings are lower than a certain amount called the primary threshold.

These earnings limits change every year, usually in April."

It is linked to your income but the problem is its all VERY COMPLICATED.Try and get your head around this...


http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index...onal_insurance_contributions_and_benefits.htm

Because certain people are eligible for concessions and credits it makes it very confusing.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/nic.htm

Its too late for me(its 5 in the morning here) to make sense of all these godamn figures. Hopefully someone will give you a rough estimate in $.

I did read that on average if you earn £20K you'll pay roughly £500 in National Insurance. So what's that in dollars. You earn $13-14K you'll pay $300-350 a year.Roughly.

Must sleep. Cannot promote healthcare system all night. Me sleep no well function without.
 
I could be blanking too, James, but I think the conversion is reversed, I think you went the wrong direction, as 20K pounds earned is higher in dollars, like nearly double. At least that's what I recall in currency conversions, that a pound is worth more than a dollars side by side. I think it's more like $34,000 annually, which is what, roughly $850 annually then for an equitable NHS-style portion to pay out?

That's nothing compared to what I'm paying in out of pocket alone. Add to that I'm paying about $1200 annually just in coverage through my employer for insurance, and you have a no brainer. I pay hundreds a month in medicine and appointments and tests and diagnostics. In 2008, 22% or so of my income went to medical costs, and that's not counting insurance payments coming out of my checks twice a month.
 
Kuwabara said:
No worries my American breatheren.

"Oh Say can you see...
Don't know the rest of the words...
Don't worry most Americans don't either. Very hard song to sing.
 
OK - I think James has it covered, but here's my tuppence worth... speaking purely from experience:

Are you able to see a doctor when you need to?

If I call my General Practitioner, I can usually see him the same day, at the very least within 24 hours.

Do you feel you get the best healthcare possible?

Absolutely - I can't fault it.

Do you get the best medication possible?

Yes, and I pay for a prepayment certificate which means all my medication costs a flat rate of £10 per month, regardless of how many prescriptions I get - thats it - one payment per month covers the lot.

Are you able to get care on a timely basis?

Always.

Any other thoughts or comments will be welcome.

My son was born 3 months early and was desperately sick, he has had more operations than I can count, VERY expensive medications, pumps for feeding, dressings, NG's, I never had to wait, and I know he would not be here today were it not for the fantastic care of the NHS.

Recently my son got shingles, serious for a kid with a compromised immune system. Typically it was a Saturday morning that the rash came out, after he had been a bit under the weather for a few days. I rang the out of hours clinic and he was seen by a doctor within the hour and put on VERY expensive antivirals. (Apparently in the regoing of £100 per tablet, and he was on a 7 day course of 3 per day). How much money did I part with? Zero...

My GP is brilliant, he listens to me, he makes time. I can always see him within 24 hours. If I am sick out of hours of the surgery I can go to an all hours surgery just down the road. MY GI secretary is lovely - if I have a problem I ring her and usually the GI will ring me back within a few hours.

People will always have horror stories about the NHS, hey, sometimes things go wrong or you have a bad experience. I know I have met docs who have made a blunder with me or my son, but at the end of the day, they aren't infallible, and most people I met are in it to try and make people better!

Yes I pay for it, about 7% of my salary a month. Is it worth it??? 100% Don't forget my 7% covers me and my two kids!

Additionally I was recently unemployed for 6 months...did I have to worry about healthcare? No...

I LOVE THE NHS!
 
My answer to all 4 of the original questions is a resounding yes. But refer to James' posts for more details.
Under any system, you need to find the best doctors, so just make sure you get the person you want.
Treatment is not "free" in that if you pay National Insurance (which I have done all my working life) you are helping to pay for the whole system... but it gives me a nice warm glow to think that anyone, regardless of income can receive the same treatment (more or less)
 
Agreed, James has said a lot of what I would like to.

But a few bits from my tuppence.

I have experienced both NHS care and private. From being left in a (NHS) ward for two days on nil-by-mouth whilst waiting for an op that would never happen. To being whisked in for a chest x-ray virtually on demand and hooked up to an ECG and the print out checked by mt GP before I left the building. And in 2002 watching my Hubby-to-be having a CT scan at 1am having pulled the radiologist from home to do it as he had a hemorrhagic stroke earlier that day. The NHS is usually very good at emergency care. It isn't always as good as it could be for non-emergency aftercare and sometimes you have to fight your corner. But at the end of the day you do get what you need. For free.
I've also experienced the best and worst of private health care. Like the last time in hospital there really weren't enough nurses to look in on me as much as there should have been because they were looking after people that had just got back from theatre having had more invasive op's than me.

Despite having paid for BUPA (one of the big private healthcare providers in the UK) subscriptions for probably 18 years, ever since I had a decent job, I wouldn't want the NHS to go away. And I really don't like seeing/hearing the 'goverment death squad' comments about it from American's who are trying to scare their countrymen into continuing the current system that leaves so many of you with bills and worry when really you should be more worried about getting healthy again.And probably lines their own pockets richly - which why they make such emotionally charged statements about a system they have sod all experience of.

The NHS has it's problems, but I'm bl**y glad its there, and I've never begrudged paying my taxes for it to be there.

Prescriptions: My Hubby has epilepsy from the stroke, and gets free 'scripts. I pay a yearly fee of around 104ukp to cover all my 'scripts no matter how many I need. I think thats a pretty good deal.

Talking of taxes. National insurance is 11% of earnings for employee's and employers pay 12%. Then there is income tax of 20something% over a threshold, and 40% on earnings above 34k.

I can imagine Obama's healthcare scheme will have its problems. Everything does. But it's got to be better than the situation now, surely.
 
I live in Sweden, and we have health care for everyone. You can get an appointment with a doctor in the same day, mostly, and if you need to see a specialist there is a maximum waiting time of 3 months. Depending on how serious it is, it can be a much shorter waiting time.

We pay between $10-40 for each visit to the doc, depending on type of care, with a maximum total of $130 per year. After that the remaining visits for that 12-month period are free. We also get relatively cheap medicine, and as with the doctor's visits there is also a system with maximum payments for medications (about $260 per 12-month period). After you've reached that maximum, it doesn't matter if you need Prednisone or Remicade, it's all free. This is for prescription drugs, non-prescription drugs are not included in this (but if you're on lots of medications your doctor might prescribe a non-prescription drug if you need it, just to make it free).

I was very sad to learn that in the US you sometimes can't get the treatment you need, because of insurance issues. We don't have that here. I do know however that sometimes the 3-month limit is exceeded (mostly for orthopedics I think), but most of the time you'll get the care you need in time.

There are insurances that you can buy to get private care, which sometimes will help you get care sooner than if you didn't have this insurance. But most people don't have this, and most don't need it either. The cost for this universal health care is covered by taxes. I'm pretty happy with the way things work here. :)
 
Peaches said:
I say bring it on Obama - let's see what they can manage. I'm sure it is going to be a bumpy ride - but *everyone* needs coverage - even that last 4%. I'm sure our taxes will be 50% within a few years...and everyone is going to grumble about that - even me. But if I KNOW when I'm 60 I'm not going to have to worry about docs and meds, it might be a bit worth it........hope I don't eat my words!

I'm going to second this.
 
The right to bear arms is another issue that is misunderstood outside the U.S.

The first thing that has to go before a dictator can take over a country is the individuals firearms. It is always done as a public safety campaign. Never mind that a majority of the people have no qualms about law abiding citizens owning firearms. Germany lost theirs prior to Hitlers reign.

The right to bear arms was put in our constitution not as a public safety issue. It was recognized at that time, and now, that it is virtually impossible to enslave a country in which its citizens can and do own firearms. Whether by a foreign power or our own government. When politicians are intent on taking that right away, it is probably their own guilty conscious making them think, you may have good reason to take a shot at them.

Land invasion scenarios done by other countries such as Germany took into account the armed population in the U.S. It is not too appealing to Generals to have virtually the whole population behind every rock and tree armed and skilled enough to hit what they aim at. Never mind the military.

What brought us out of the Depression was WW2. The government programs then, were much like the ones today. Ineffective. They did give some quick cash to individuals who desperately needed it, but they did not bring the country out of depression.

The U.S. governments insistence that Great Britain pay for war supplies from the U.S. in Gold brought us out of the depression. That was mighty generous of us.

Since we were one of the few countries with a unmolested manufacturing base, we took huge advantage of it. Money poured in from all quarters. Even IBM's German arm was making a ton of money helping to enslave the Jewish population by use of punch card computers. Their biggest problem was how to get the money out of Germany to the U.S. Not too many people are aware of that business venture.

Of course the general population was in the war for the right reasons, but corporate interests took full advantage of the situation for profit.

This same government is in place today, and many of us do not trust it for good reason. You should not trust it either. Governments are only as good as the people in charge, at the time. Any government can turn on its own population given the right people and circumstances come together. It is far easier when the citizens have no means to defend themselves.

Of course we have our good points as most any other place, but huge government and by implication huge government power over us, is not that appealing to me.

The government can make a workable health care system without being in the business its self. There are any number of workable solutions that do not require the government to run things. They simply are not good at doing it. That may not be the case everywhere, but it is the case here.

You only have to take a look at our National Debt to verify that fact. The government cannot even pay for what it is doing today without borrowing from other countries. That is also a threat to our sovereignty.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of Nine Trillion Dollars.
That is $9,000,000,000,000

We have about 305 million people. My calculator does not go high enough to figure out how much that is per person, but I know it is more money than I can pay for in the near future.

Dan
 
I remain cautious, but I don't have a complete loss of faith in government as a concept or entity, but yes that faith was tarnished and crumbling; I have a loss of faith in people--individuals--both those in the government and those run by the government have/had disgusted me, but that also means that faith can be replenished.

I have more faith in our people at this time than I have in a long while, not all of them, but I don't feel as jaded about the men and women behind the curtain at the helm. That's not to say they are impeccable, but that they are more astute and attune. I haven't yet had much faith replenished in the citizens of this country, but in our leaders, yes.

Perhaps this will better explain it: I feel as though some see the car as the broken element in these situations, whereas I see the driver as the broken element and that nothing was actually wrong with the car. Centuries or even decades ago, that car had seen its best days. Replace the driver and the situation is mended, I don't believe that we are stuck with the same "broken car" no matter who is driving because I don't believe the car is actually broken, I believe in replacing that driver to improve the situation. :)
 
"The first thing that has to go before a dictator can take over a country is the individuals firearms. It is always done as a public safety campaign. Never mind that a majority of the people have no qualms about law abiding citizens owning firearms. Germany lost theirs prior to Hitlers reign.

The right to bear arms was put in our constitution not as a public safety issue. It was recognized at that time, and now, that it is virtually impossible to enslave a country in which its citizens can and do own firearms."

This is just simply untrue isn't it? I mean don't 1 in 8 people own an AK-47?
Russia - Lots of Guns - basically autocratic
Somalia - Lots of Guns,lots of militias,lots of enslavement.
Iraq- Every man and his dog has a gun - you have gun markets in towns across the Arab world. Yet the Middle East is rife with autocracy and theocracy. The same goes for Africa - Sierra Leone,Rwanda etc.

Hitler's rise to power has nothing to do with the lack of arms in Germany. His whole popularity was built upon his oration of German frustration regarding the Treaty of Versailles and the chronic poverty of Germany. He also played on Anti-Semitism and the inaeffectivness of the Weimar establishment who could do very little to improve the economic situation.

"A key element of Hitler's appeal was his ability to evoke a sense of offended national pride caused by the Treaty of Versailles imposed on the defeated German Empire by the Western Allies. Germany had lost economically important territory in Europe along with its colonies and in admitting to sole responsibility for the war had agreed to pay a huge reparations bill totaling 132 billion marks. Most Germans bitterly resented these terms, but early Nazi attempts to gain support by blaming these humiliations on "international Jewry" were not particularly successful with the electorate. The party learned quickly, and soon a more subtle propaganda emerged, combining antisemitism with an attack on the failures of the "Weimar system" and the parties supporting it."

I bet you'd struggle to find a historian who would place the lack of an armed citzenry as the reason behind why Hitler rose to power.

You speak of Land invasion scenario's - who's going to invade the U.S?
Look up Internation Democratic Peace Theory as well as M.A.D. Also try Francis Fukiyama's 'The End of History'.

So a) Guns are no guarantee of demcracy - civic culture, a stable economy and a free press are by far the greatest guarantors of that
and b) Territorial war is an anachronism

So what you're left with is a heavily armed citizenry who have access to drugs,alcohol and are unstable as all humans are. Hell I've felt like shooting some people in the past. But this is the problem with a codifiied constition - its difficult to amend especially when powerful industries have lobbied interests - and they don't get more powerful then the miliary industrial complex.

I agree the primary reason you came out of depression was WWII - but remeber WWII began in 1939. That's 10 years since the Wall Street Crash. The alphabet agencies helped stimulate the economy towards the crescendo that was WWII. But perhaps far more important was that it gave millions the dignity of an income and work. No matter how small that was. And in that respect it is an example of a Great American Experiment.

"Any government can turn on its own population given the right people and circumstances come together. It is far easier when the citizens have no means to defend themselves."

Can I ask what world do you live in?I mean i don't like politicians as much as the next man but I don't have any fears of any kind of autocracy. Is Barack Obama really turning on the population by trying to figure out how to give them all healthcare? Not everyone in Government is planning world domination or is suddenly going to try and become the next Hitler. Why the mistrust of Government but a certain trustworthiness to the profit grabbing Insurance Companies etc? Come to Europe mate - soften your eyes see how brilliant some Goverment instituions can be.

"You only have to take a look at our National Debt to verify that fact. The government cannot even pay for what it is doing today without borrowing from other countries. That is also a threat to our sovereignty.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of Nine Trillion Dollars.
That is $9,000,000,000,000"

I agree Dan its a ridiculous state of affairs but that's the price of low taxation, ultra intensive military spending and what appears to be a Superpower in decline. As you point out your national debt means your sovereignty is comprimised - the horse has already bolted in that respect. In essence, the American economy is being propped up with Chinese money. There the ones buying insurance bonds etc from the American Gvt.
 
I am a Canadian living in the US and since I have lived in both countries and experienced BOTH systems I like to think I have a little better understanding of things than those who have only lived in one country...While living in the US - a combined time of 10 years I have found that if you have good insurance you have good care. I have been fortunate to have this good coverage through my husband's job. I know many Americans who have little to NO coverage though and it astounds me - Isn't this suppose to be the richest country in the world? It goes back to the individialistic notion and the capitalistic greed we have all seen of late, AND there doesn't seem to be that moral obligation argument come into play. In Canada YES we pay more for taxes - things like beer, cigarettes are three times the price (these things kill you by the way) and polls are always being done asking Canadians what the best thing about being Canadian is - free health care is the answer time and time again...I personally have had countless tests, major surgery, doctor's appointments etc. and never paid a dime - I would rather pay a little more here and there in taxes than be bankrupt because of one operation or sickness! The medical care in the US is PROFIT driven and until this changes to a MORAL driven attitude not much will change. Drugs, like in the UK are WAY cheaper and if you are a child or over 65 they are free etc. and most employers cover most prescriptions - I used to pay a dollar a prescription...So after living in both countries and experiencing both systems (I am not bias as half my family is American) it amazes me that America remains the only industrialized nation without some sort of socialized national healthcare system - what everyone must remember is that we are ALL going to get old and sick one day. Why should just the rich get the best treatment? Because they can afford it? Nuff said - good night and good luck ...
 
"The first thing that has to go before a dictator can take over a country is the individuals firearms. It is always done as a public safety campaign. Never mind that a majority of the people have no qualms about law abiding citizens owning firearms. Germany lost theirs prior to Hitlers reign.

The right to bear arms was put in our constitution not as a public safety issue. It was recognized at that time, and now, that it is virtually impossible to enslave a country in which its citizens can and do own firearms."

Another aspect of the right to bear arms is that it provides another check and balance for our government. By having a well armed militia and citizenry, it allows provides the people with the means to depose of the government if it becomes corrupt and tyrannical. The same goes for the military. Many people outside the US do not realize this, but soldiers in the US military do not swear an oath to the government, they swear to uphold the constitution.

How has that hand gun ban worked for you there in the UK? The Home office shows that the number of Firearm related crimes in the UK is up from approx 5k in 1997 when the ban took place to over 10k in 2006/2007.

This is just simply untrue isn't it? I mean don't 1 in 8 people own an AK-47?
Russia - Lots of Guns - basically autocratic
Somalia - Lots of Guns,lots of militias,lots of enslavement.
Iraq- Every man and his dog has a gun - you have gun markets in towns across the Arab world. Yet the Middle East is rife with autocracy and theocracy. The same goes for Africa - Sierra Leone,Rwanda etc.
Most of the countries you list here are crushing dictatorships and anarchies. Yeah, everyone has guns, but there is no rule of law or sense of government in Somalia, Sudan, and other Central African Countries. All of the weapons in the world will not resolve their ancient blood feuds.

Its interesting that you mention the Middle East. Israel, the only true democracy (except Turkey and now Iraq) in the Middle East. Everyone has a gun and is very well trained to use it. That is one of the only reasons that the country still exists given the desire of its neighbors to destroy it. Trust me, my grandfather smuggled weapons around Tele Viv just before Independence was announced.

Hitler's rise to power has nothing to do with the lack of arms in Germany. His whole popularity was built upon his oration of German frustration regarding the Treaty of Versailles and the chronic poverty of Germany. He also played on Anti-Semitism and the inaeffectivness of the Weimar establishment who could do very little to improve the economic situation.

"A key element of Hitler's appeal was his ability to evoke a sense of offended national pride caused by the Treaty of Versailles imposed on the defeated German Empire by the Western Allies. Germany had lost economically important territory in Europe along with its colonies and in admitting to sole responsibility for the war had agreed to pay a huge reparations bill totaling 132 billion marks. Most Germans bitterly resented these terms, but early Nazi attempts to gain support by blaming these humiliations on "international Jewry" were not particularly successful with the electorate. The party learned quickly, and soon a more subtle propaganda emerged, combining antisemitism with an attack on the failures of the "Weimar system" and the parties supporting it."

I bet you'd struggle to find a historian who would place the lack of an armed citzenry as the reason behind why Hitler rose to power.

Funny you mention the Weimar Republic's printing of money. That seems to be what Obama is doing now to pay for the stimulus bill and other agendas we cannot afford. We have printed so much money that the value of the dollar has practically collapsed this year. The last time we printed cash this fast was back in the 70's under Jimmy Carter. That ended with massive inflation and interest rates near 20%. How did Regan resolve this mess?? Lowering taxes... you gotta love trickle down economics!! Do you want to see how utterly screwed we are as a country? Just take a look at this website. http://www.usdebtclock.org/

So what you're left with is a heavily armed citizenry who have access to drugs,alcohol and are unstable as all humans are. Hell I've felt like shooting some people in the past. But this is the problem with a codifiied constition - its difficult to amend especially when powerful industries have lobbied interests - and they don't get more powerful then the military industrial complex.


This may seem like a leap, but lets look at nuclear weapons. The reason we are going after Iran and North Korea to prevent them from building nuclear weapons is that these are fundamentalist regimes run by megalomaniacs that will have no problems selling them to the highest bidder or use them to hold their neighbors at ransom. It is perfectly okay for the UK, China, German and France to have nukes because they understand that they are a weapon of the very last resort and a deterrent to most aggressors. Having guns in the hands of law abiding citizens is rarely a problem. It is a matter of trust that people will respect the gun for what it is. Criminals on the other hand are barred by law from owning or possessing guns because they have shown they cannot be trusted.

I agree the primary reason you came out of depression was WWII - but remeber WWII began in 1939. That's 10 years since the Wall Street Crash. The alphabet agencies helped stimulate the economy towards the crescendo that was WWII. But perhaps far more important was that it gave millions the dignity of an income and work. No matter how small that was. And in that respect it is an example of a Great American Experiment.

Another reason why the Second Great Depression was so bad was the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act. It is a great example of why taxation is never the answer to boosting the economy. The tariffs that were levied created a trade war that pretty much destroyed the US manufacturing base by decreasing US imports and exports by 50% ish.
"Any government can turn on its own population given the right people and circumstances come together. It is far easier when the citizens have no means to defend themselves."

Can I ask what world do you live in?I mean i don't like politicians as much as the next man but I don't have any fears of any kind of autocracy. Is Barack Obama really turning on the population by trying to figure out how to give them all healthcare? Not everyone in Government is planning world domination or is suddenly going to try and become the next Hitler. Why the mistrust of Government but a certain trustworthiness to the profit grabbing Insurance Companies etc? Come to Europe mate - soften your eyes see how brilliant some Goverment instituions can be.

Ben Franklin warned us against making the poor comfortable in their poverty. When you give the poor, especially the lazy poor free services and entertainment (panem et circenses?), they become endebted to their "masters" and will keep them in power to keep the free ride going.

I agree Dan its a ridiculous state of affairs but that's the price of low taxation, ultra intensive military spending and what appears to be a Superpower in decline. As you point out your national debt means your sovereignty is comprimised - the horse has already bolted in that respect. In essence, the American economy is being propped up with Chinese money. There the ones buying insurance bonds etc from the American Gvt.

It also comes from having too many government entitlements that cannot be supported. Are our taxes low? Yes, and we love it. There is an economic theory known as the Laffer Curve. It basically states that an increase in taxation does not necessarily mean an increase in revenue. Maryland is a great example. They recently increased the income taxes on high wage earners. As a result, many of the well paid lawyers living in the sate moved the Virginia and Delaware where the taxes are less. This has now resulted in a budget shortfall for Maryland.
 
jed said:
heres the australian nitty gritty, i'm pretty sure all the amounts your looking for will be in there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(Australia)

oh, and forgot to mention, some drugs have certain markers you need before you can get them for free.

i.e. imfliximab, remicade etc etc. you need to score certain pain markers & inflamation markers etc etc then you'll get the drugs free of charge (instead of the $10,000 for 3 months or whatever it is).


i got unlucky:( they almost had me on it, but then i went downhill to quick and had to go into surgery. after that i didnt need it anyway, so meh.

but yeah, you can get any drug free if you really need it.

tho some markers are just stupid. theres some bone drug i want to help heal all the damage i've done to my bones with pred. its really damn expensive, but to get it free, one of the markers is that you break a bone doing something that should never cause a break.. i.e. brushing teeth or something silly.... even with awesome health care, some thing will always be stupid......


This is exactly what I am afraid will happen with the healthcare in the US. My doctor has me on 6MP and Humira because a study that is about to be released shows that it is the absolute best treatment for the disease. Patient care should be the purview of the the doctor, not because some government bureaucrat.

Dan
 
The government wouldn't take over what is prescribed, recommended, or considered....They would be aiding people by giving them a public option, financially, an alternative. It's not a take over. They aren't ripping control from doctor's hands, you'd keep your current plan and setup if you chose, it's just that the insurance companies would have competition. If you don't have one, you can get healthcare from the public option. Affordability and availability are going up.

Even IF the government, within the public option, says a medicine isn't right for coverage, it should just mean you have to pay more just like within current plans, and that's a huge if. Not just that, but I'm guessing there is an appeal process the doctors would have. ***The government isn't trying to become the final word on how you're treated, but on who is treated.***

You can't take one specific incident in another country that has full public healthcare (not an option for it, though they have private insurance) and skew it to fit doubts in the potentiality. There is a lot of misinformation about what is being proposed and pushed for. This is not Obama on a conference call with your GI telling him what you can and can't take. It's a hybrid of what we currently have (which mind you, sucks balls) mixed with what other countries praise and love, where anyone, regardless of status, will have a chance at living. It's a step forward, IMO, but I appreciate the fears, because yes, it's a big change.

We already have a plethora of incidents and horror stories now that have insurance companies denying life saving treatments and life altering treatments, I believe there are only steps forward in that regard. :)

Summary: They are stepping in to amend the who, and not the how.
 
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Thank god for the NHS, If we need to see aDoctor urgently we are lucky our GP will see us straight away or within a couple of hours. Peggy
 
I think a very simple solution for the U.S. could be had, if some common sense was used.

There are various proposed solutions to the health care problem. No one knows what is going to work best. It is a large country, and it would be irresponsible to trash the current health care delivery method with a completely new one with no idea of the outcome.

We already have state run programs, so the states have experience in the health care field. Why not take Plan A and run it in one state, Plan B and so on, in another and see which works best. If elements of one plan work better they can be implemented into a final working model.

There is already some of this going on anyway, it just needs to be defined and graded by the recipients and providers. Insurers and Pharmaceutical companies can stay out of it completely, since they are a majority of the problem to begin with.

If agreement can not be made between the various models more than one could be used. If it is about the people than the people should decide. We could vote on a plan for our state. It does not have to be a federal run program.

Dan
 
hellooo

this forum is interestinggggg :)........
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That's the thing...in Canada we don't pay out of pocket for MRI's or any other tests for that matter, nor do we pay for surgeries or hospital care...we also don't have a "patient advocate" because we don't need one, in Canada the insurance companies don't run the health care system the way it does in the states and it's not a big money profit maker because in canada they don't have everyone by the nuts, they are not in control of our health, our government is and the nice thing about that is, it's all seperate from province to province and if we don't like how our provincial government is "running" our system then they are at risk of being voted out the next election. In Canada, the insurance compaines are very low on the totem pole, we can choose if we want blue cross, or we go through who ever our employers go with and they're basically all the same so there's not much in the way of competition that way either. And in many families if both spouses are working and get insurance from their companies they can use both and end up paying nothing for RX and other things like dental and eye care. No, not perfect (what is?) but a heck of alot better than some other countries...England is a another country that has excellent health care, same with many places in europe.

Health care in Canada also varies from province to province, but bottom line is in Canada our health care system is still better off even with them bringing in some private health care, than what it sounds like it is in the US...watching the movie "Sicko" is quite an eye opener and although some americans say that Micahael Moore has done some exaggerating, I found everything he said about Canada's health care system to be correct, so why he would exaggerate the US health care system and not Canada's is beyond me.

Our dental and eye care is covered strictly through our insurance (if you have it either through your job, spouses job or under Blue cross) and that is also payed for by you independantly. For example my hubby pays 40.00 each pay cheque for his insurance and that insurance covers 80% of RX (remicade might not be covered at all, I've never checked, or it might only be partially covered, but likely less than the standard 80%, and eye RX only cover 300.00 per person per every 2 yrs for adults, and every yr for dependants (kids). If you go over the covered amount then you have to pay the extra out of pocket...same with the dentist, nothing cosmetic is covered (except for braces for kids but they only pay 2500.00 per life-time for each kid and braces usually rung between 4 thousand and higher, so it helps some but it's not all free.

No system is perfect from what I've learned so far, but if Obama is able to make the health care system in the US more similar to what it is in Canada (for example) then all of America would be better off, not just the ones that can afford insurance.

Here in Canada if you don't have insurance, or you're homeless or something you don't get denied hospital or doctor care and your care is equivilant to someone that makes lots of $$$ and has insurance...our insurance through our work pays for semi-private hospital rooms and a portion for private rooms, so there are some differences if you have insurance benefits through your employer but regardless, no one gets turned down for hospital or doctor care.

:)
 
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