Hard descision to make..made part already...

[Lisa]

hard descision to make..made part already...

I just made a phone call to my husbands' therapist (whom he is seeing for anger management issues)....I was on the phone with him and he got upset because he missed a turn, then another on his way to his therapy apppointment....started pretty much ranting and saying he wanted to drive the van into a tree on the way there...that things weren't worth it, and he wanted to pretty much give up.

Now, he has said similar things in the past in a fit of anger, but it has been getting worse lately,. This past weekend he had a day where he was very shaky, anxious, felt ill, actually collapsed in the house and crawled into the bathroom where he lay on the floor for a while.....then when I told him I would make him something to eat (he THEN told me he hadn't eaten for a day!)...he tried to tell me that he 'needed to learn how to do things himself'.....SERIOUSLY - this is what he said!...

That actually started to make me pissed -come on, he is an adult, and KNOWS how to take care of himself!....that is self-pity talking there...part of feeling hopeless/helpless.....

I honestly think he is showing signs of clinical depression, but getting him to admit it and seek proper treatment is the tough part.

I did talk to the therapist (he is there now) - and she told me tha tshe does need to tell him I called - I told her that might make things hard on me (him getting mad at me for calling).....she said she would tell him I called because I was concerned - which I am.....

How the hell do you get a grown man to seek the help he needs, before something is said or done that messes with the rest of his and his familys' life?..... I don't think his parents would be much support - he isn't that close to his sister, and honestly some days he says he doesn't even like me.....

I guess I'm worried about him being pissed at me for interfering....but I did because I care! ..... we both have a good job, I also don't want anything to happen that would risk that for him, or for me too.....

 

[Carrie630]

paso, I agree with your assessment about potential depression. I've gone through similar troubles when my meds were not working. absolute freak-outs in the car were one of the things I noticed most. They have dropped down to almost zero now, and if I do get mad I just get mad, I don't yell and scream and want to hit something.

good luck getting him help. I don't have any suggestions on how to get him there other than to try to remind him that the way he's feeling isn't healthy and he should get checked out. You don't necessarily have to go straight to the mental health route. Other health issues can cause anger and depression symptoms.

 

[Entchen]

Hey Paso: Is this therapist a licensed clinical psychologist? A man presenting with irritability should have been screened for the depression at the first appointment. If this is the case, the psychologist might be aware of the depression (or, not) and treating it accordingly as part of anger management therapy -- 'cept if he is getting worse, not better, after 6 weeks or two months, then another approach (such as medication from a physician) might be indicated.

Men who have depression are more likely to present as irritated / annoyed than as sad.

 

[tiloah]

I don't know if that's clinical depression, but he definitely has something going on with his mental health that NEEDS attention. You did the right thing by alerting his therapist. If in the end he gets help, then hopefully him being "pissed" will only be a temporary problem. But if he's making threats like wanting to drive into a tree, I'd be worried about how safe he is with you and your family.

I'm always here for you and support whatever you decide to do or not do. I hope your husband is able to get the help he needs. Good luck.

 

[Lisa]

well..ok...WHEW!!!!!.....just got off the phone with him.....

After getting a text 'I'm gonna kick you' - I texted him back - I am CONCERNED about you!!!!!'....he then called me, and was VERY CALM...actually THANKED me for calling - he did tell me he wasn't prepared for that conversation with the therapist, BUT - he has now been referred to someone for a medication screening (not the right word - but I'm sure you get my drift!).....

He did tell the therapist he wasn't sure if he wanted to kick me or hug me for calling :shifty::redface: .....

Hopefully this will be a step in the right direction!!! I have been ~very~ worried about his reaction - and it was sooooo omuch better than I thought. Now if I can just get the tears to stop threatening!

 

[tiloah]

Obviously I don't know your husband but you said he has anger management issues and I am NOT okay with him making violent threats against you (even if they are a joke). I wish I could give this guy a piece of my mind. D:

Anyway I'm glad he is going to get help.

 

[KWalker]

I am in school to get my Ph.D to become a clinical psychologist. In most cases, his therapist most likely only has a bachelors or maybe a masters degree in either psychology or social work so he/she cannot actually diagnose somebody. A clinical psychologist usually only sees a patient once, maybe a few times where as a counselor (therapist) would see the patient (in most cases) 5-8 times but can go much longer.

Anyways, I want to look into this and I will get back to you but I don't think she should have told your husband you called. I think that falls under the privacy act in the same sense that no matter what relation, or you are to the client itself, the counselor under no circumstances can share a single word he says unless he plans to harm himself or others. You did a good thing expressing your concerns though so the counselor can address those with your husband.

Its hard to say without actually speaking to him, and it does take significant training to be able to actual diagnose somebody but there are many things to look at. Although he could be depressed, he could suffer from anxiety which is causing the depression. Do you see any relation between his activities prior to when he gets depressed?

A few questions.
Does he suffer from crohns or you do you? (Sorry for not knowing this)
Is he on medication? Whether it be for depression, or any medical reason. (Some medications are well known to cause depression/anger and could be playing a role)
How many sessions has he done so far with his counselor? In reality, and it does happen. Maybe his counselor isn't effective for him. If he's been with the counselor for awhile the relationship can turn from client-counselor to more of a friendship and words can be taken differently.

I'll leave it at that for now and see what you say back. I am not a counselor, and I am just studying this in school so I can finish the 11 years and get my doctors degree to be able to properly assess and help people that need help, so don't take what I say as any formal help. I'm just trying to help with what I know.

Best of luck

 

[tiloah]

I just think it's inappropriate for somebody to make threats like that when they have anger issues. And the fact that you *know* "if he had been really mad it would have been more descriptive" concerns me further. I'm glad you don't fear for your safety, but I can't help worrying about people I care about.

 

[Lisa]

@KWalker- I will answer you questions/comments when I am back at a computer- on my phone right now.

And to ALL who have posted so far- THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was sitting at my desk earlier after making the phone call, trying to think of who I could talk to about it- who wasn't too close and could be pretty objective.....hence the posts here!

 

[xJillx]

I am a little late on this one, but it sounds like this situation is headed in the right direction. I think it was a big step for your husband to be thankful you called his doctor. Being that the case, he obviously knows something isn't right.

I hope he'll get the help he needs, and it will be a positive thing for both of you!

 

[mickey]

Whatever he is going through is not healthy; for him, you or your family. He needs help. I hate to see meds be the answer; as that is only a bandaid. Hopefully he will search for the root of the problem and resolve that issue, so the meds can go away. Like Crohns, search for the root; whether it be food choices, unresolved stress...much to discover. Good luck to you!

P.S. Whether you realize it or not, this does affect the children in many ways. Please be sure he is not vocalizing the threats (run into a tree, etc.) in front of the children, as that can be their learned behavior of how to deal with things, etc..or they may have fear of being sick...keep them talking and healthy!

 

[Lisa]

Anyways, I want to look into this and I will get back to you but I don't think she should have told your husband you called. I think that falls under the privacy act in the same sense that no matter what relation, or you are to the client itself, the counselor under no circumstances can share a single word he says unless he plans to harm himself or others. You did a good thing expressing your concerns though so the counselor can address those with your husband.

Well - not sure that would apply, as I am not the patient, and I called them to advise of his state of mind and what he said today - the therapist (and she is a social worker, not psychologist) didn't tell me anything about him.....she did tell him I had called.....

Its hard to say without actually speaking to him, and it does take significant training to be able to actual diagnose somebody but there are many things to look at. Although he could be depressed, he could suffer from anxiety which is causing the depression. Do you see any relation between his activities prior to when he gets depressed?

Not really - he will have good days and bad days, almost like highs and lows...and YES - he does also suffer from anxiety - but which came first..depression to anxiety, or anxiety into depression.....

A few questions.
Does he suffer from crohns or you do you? (Sorry for not knowing this) No - he does not
Is he on medication? No medications, other than advil - no prescriptionsWhether it be for depression, or any medical reason. (Some medications are well known to cause depression/anger and could be playing a role)

How many sessions has he done so far with his counselor? He has only had a few sessions, maybe 4-5? Not a lot, and he told me that most of it has centered on the anger, not any other issues.

In reality, and it does happen. Maybe his counselor isn't effective for him. If he's been with the counselor for awhile the relationship can turn from client-counselor to more of a friendship and words can be taken differently. I don't think there have been enough sessions for that - not sure how good a fit she is for him, but then again, I'm not privy to any of the sessions - only hear what my husband has to say.....

I'll leave it at that for now and see what you say back. I am not a counselor, and I am just studying this in school so I can finish the 11 years and get my doctors degree to be able to properly assess and help people that need help, so don't take what I say as any formal help. I'm just trying to help with what I know.

Best of luck

Thanks!

 

[KWalker]

Hmm.. Well, and this is only my opinion but she needs to look at what comes before anger, rather than the anger itself. What is triggering it? She can try and fix the anger as much as she wants, but in my opinion what she needs to be doing is preventing the anger, and finding things for him to do when he senses anger coming on.

There are many times, and it's nobodys fault but the counselor and client don't "mesh". Just like with crohns patients and G.I's, sometimes it takes a few to find the right person for yourself. Has he ever actually be properly diagnosed or just from his therapist? Because more than likely he/she can't actually (legally) diagnose him. And, there are a few times when the client has no diagnosis in the sense that they could just be going through a rough patch in their life and need some assistance getting through it, even though you don't physically know of anything going on. It's all about neuroscience and how our awesome brains like to mess around with us sometimes. I'm not saying your husband doesn't have something going on, I'm just trying to say that its not uncommon for people to get diagnosed with common things such as depression/anxiety just because it's easy and gets it out of the way, where as it can be more in depth than that.

The main issue is what is causing his anger/depression. You always have to be careful too when you say you're not afraid of him doing anything. Yes harmful/suicidal people can come out of nowhere, often times too people talk about it, and they feel they need to talk about it because it gets people aware of the severity. Again, not saying your husband is suicidal, but you did say he talked about driving into a tree.

Is it possible he could have a mild case of Bi-Polar? Where you can be happy and have great days one second, then the next minute you hate the world. In my personal opinion, I think the counselor needs to take a break from anger management and talk about the pre stages to his anger.

I hope you don't take my posts as any sort of doctoral advice, I am just trying to give my opinion based on what I know. In most cases where people suffer from depression/anger it doesn't last a whole lifetime and is often "outgrown" so just hang in there and be there for him. DO NOT, under any circumstances let him justify his behavior or act out in front out of the children as he can make a lasting impact on their lives as well.

Everything will work out

 

[Lisa]

Hmm.. Well, and this is only my opinion but she needs to look at what comes before anger, rather than the anger itself. What is triggering it? She can try and fix the anger as much as she wants, but in my opinion what she needs to be doing is preventing the anger, and finding things for him to do when he senses anger coming on.

I believe this is being worked on - I found an anger sheet in the car from the appointment yesterday - and it does have a space for alternatives to anger....

There are many times, and it's nobodys fault but the counselor and client don't "mesh". Just like with crohns patients and G.I's, sometimes it takes a few to find the right person for yourself. Has he ever actually be properly diagnosed or just from his therapist?

No diagnosis (yet) - he has names/numbers to call to set up an evaluation/diagnostic visit.....

Because more than likely he/she can't actually (legally) diagnose him. And, there are a few times when the client has no diagnosis in the sense that they could just be going through a rough patch in their life and need some assistance getting through it, even though you don't physically know of anything going on. It's all about neuroscience and how our awesome brains like to mess around with us sometimes. I'm not saying your husband doesn't have something going on, I'm just trying to say that its not uncommon for people to get diagnosed with common things such as depression/anxiety just because it's easy and gets it out of the way, where as it can be more in depth than that.

Oh, I know he is going through a rough patch - I've mentioned to him a mid-life crisis...which I think is part - in addition to that is he lets things from the past influence today (past relationships that failed) - I think he has been dwelling on the failures, and he tends to obsess on things....AND - we have been together now for almost 10 years total (married for 7 of those) - his last marraige ended at about 7-8 years.....I feel that he thinks of that and is expecting things to go down hill.....

One thing he didn't count on or realize is how STUBBORN I can be - I am NOT just going to walk away (as others have done) - or tell him he isn't worth it, or doesn't deserve me (others who are supposed friends have told him this!!! :voodoo::voodoo.....he doesn't quite believbe it yet, but I take my marraige vows seriously and am not about to throw away 10 years over what should be a bump in the road of life.....

The main issue is what is causing his anger/depression. You always have to be careful too when you say you're not afraid of him doing anything. Yes harmful/suicidal people can come out of nowhere, often times too people talk about it, and they feel they need to talk about it because it gets people aware of the severity. Again, not saying your husband is suicidal, but you did say he talked about driving into a tree.

This is exactly why I made the call yesterday - and thankfully he talked about things with the therapist, and I think had a pretty good session. He also spent Tuesday in NYC with a good friend of his (and a friend of mine) - she had his ear for the train ride home and last night he told me she really opened his eyes to some things.....like how he has a double standard....we talked about that last night - and when he asked how do we try to work on that my answer was 'baby steps'.....like not complaining about how I fill the dishwasher - just let me do it.,....let it go.....you see he wants things done HIS WAY - and with this I am partly at fault (and told him so) because I didn't make a fuss about it.....just let him be himself - while I'm not allowed to be myself.....

So that is one things we will be working on - and as I said, baby steps.....

Is it possible he could have a mild case of Bi-Polar? Where you can be happy and have great days one second, then the next minute you hate the world. In my personal opinion, I think the counselor needs to take a break from anger management and talk about the pre stages to his anger.

I don't think so - although the thought did cross my mind, the actions don't quite fit - I also went on line and did a self-survery for depression etc which came back that he should be checked - no big surprise there.

I hope you don't take my posts as any sort of doctoral advice, I am just trying to give my opinion based on what I know. In most cases where people suffer from depression/anger it doesn't last a whole lifetime and is often "outgrown" so just hang in there and be there for him. DO NOT, under any circumstances let him justify his behavior or act out in front out of the children as he can make a lasting impact on their lives as well.

Everything will work out

Thank you very much for your input! Maybe you can use some of this to learn from too.... :wink:..... life isn't always black and white, or easy to figure out - I will let you all know how he makes out with the evaluation.....

Oh - and last night ended up ending on a GOOD note for us!!!

 

[KWalker]

You know, big kudos to you for sticking by him. It is so much easier just to pack up and leave, but your doing a really good thing by pushing through the storm. It is important though that you can distinguish the difference between him with physical/verbal abuse and him just going through a hard time. Please tell someone or distance yourself if you feel there is abuse going on. Only you really know. Listening to my profs, one actually is a counselor right now, but has his Ph.D and he says that often times the relationship does work because the client is aware of the actions, and he/she truly does want to fix them, they just need some help.

Something that might interest you, and you would need your husbands permission but you could possibly join him in a session or two. This way it gives him a little more reassurance that you really care, and you are there for him but it also allows him to hear what you have to say without being able to run away from it. You would have to get his permission as well as the counselors but it is allowed in a lot of cases.

Hang in there, I'm sure you guys can make it through.

 

[Lisa]

Something that might interest you, and you would need your husbands permission but you could possibly join him in a session or two. This way it gives him a little more reassurance that you really care, and you are there for him but it also allows him to hear what you have to say without being able to run away from it. You would have to get his permission as well as the counselors but it is allowed in a lot of cases.

Hang in there, I'm sure you guys can make it through.

Actually - I have already mentioned this to him (couple weeks ago now).....but he wasn't/isn't ready for that (yet).....We actually had gone to one couples therapy appointment, but he didn't mesh with the counselor there (I wasn't overjoyed with her either).....I do plan on following up with some couples sessions once his head is on a bit straighter.....

 

[KWalker]

Well I'm glad to hear that . If you have any questions feel free to post or send me a PM and ill try my best to help.

 

[Lisa]

Well - an update - hubby went to his therabpy appt then the evaluation after, and got 2 prescriptions - 1 for Prozac, the other for something to help him sleep (not ambien, have that already).....this is good- and hopefully the Prozac will help - but what will help him until that kicks in?????

Last night we had a long discussion while he was waiting to fall asleep - he got all sorry for himself again, apologized for putting me through everything, talked about giving up...all the same things.....I admit, earlier in the evening I did get a bit harsh with him, talking about how he DOES matter, to a LOT of people - and that just giving up was the cowards' way out - also that he wasn't always this person, and that we needed to work on finding that person and getting him back.

It is hard to explain, but he seems to be somewhat fixated on the belief that he would be better off alone, with no relationship(s)....and that I would just move on if he wasn't there....he also has asked me if I want to help him for 'US' or to hang on to the marriage and the material things that go with it (house, etc).......while he KNOWS (and admits) that I am NOT materialistic.....I am hanging in for US - and for HIM - and am really hoping that the meds kick in sooner than later.

I really don't like the frequency of the thoughts of just 'going away' or 'stopping'...he ~says~ he talked about this with both people yesterday, but I don't know how seriously they are taking it...I did tell him I want to go to the next appointment with him - I just get this feeling that the whole story isn't being told/heard.....I know of too many people that had been giving cries for help but were ignored/blown off until it was too late.....one was the son of a good friend of mine.....

 

[Carrie630]

tell your husband that when we're dealing with depression issues we may try to make bad decisions (like ending a relationship). It's within his best interests to watch for any decisions that seem to be influenced by his mood and then hold off on them. I've done some _terrible_ things when I was really depressed. trying to isolate yourself and break off relationships is a thing that happens. I'm sure his therapist has to be telling him this, but he needs to also work on positive thinking vs. negative thinking which can make depression worse. its called cognitive behavior therapy if curious.

Be positive when you can, don't enable him if he tries to wallow, don't push him to talk when he seems absolutely unable to do so, but encourage him to come to you whenever he needs an ear.

as always, good luck!

 

[KWalker]

Sorry to hear things don't seem to be progressing. Be very careful with Prozac as you don't hear about it, but there's actually an increase in suicides AFTER starting Prozac. It is a drug known to stimulate the brain and allow for the human to thoroughly think and plan out certain activities. It is an anti-depressant, but it triggers certain parts of the brain and lets it get "creative" for lack of better terms.

Not saying this will happen to him, but just keep an eye on him if you don't notice things are progressing. Does he work? If so, what does he think of his job? These days, Work/School take up the majority of a persons day so it has a big impact on the rest of the day if something good or bad happens while at work, or school.

Best of luck

 

[Lisa]

I have been reading up on Prozac - and did see where it can increase those thoughts and actions - what I have read does indicate it is more prevelant in people under 25, BUT I'm sure there are cases of it affecting people over 25 in that way too - I will be keeping a CLOSE eye on him!

Yes, he does work full time - and so far his work has not been affected by this - in fact, work is usually an 'escape' from everything - he can concentrate on what needs to be done there vs. letting his brain go on and on about things at home and how he is feeling. PLUS - work doesn't know what is going on, although I may be having a chat with an EAP (Employee Assistance Program) rep in the near future if it looks like things change on that front.

I did read that it takes time for hte Prozac to build up in your system - years ago he was on Paxil and that worked for him, so I am hoping the Prozac helps - and that we/he can hold out until it kicks in.....

Today he sounded 'down'......this wohle general depression and not caring is what bothers me - this morning when he left the house I asked him to be careful - as I always do - and his response was pretty much that he didn't care if he got into an accident on the way to work.....now, I DO NOT think he would purposely cause an accident, but if one was avoidable, he may not take actions (beyond automatic reflexive actions) to avoid one....at least not at this point...and boy, do I HOPE I'm right!.....

 

[xJillx]

I really don't like the frequency of the thoughts of just 'going away' or 'stopping'...he ~says~ he talked about this with both people yesterday, but I don't know how seriously they are taking it...I did tell him I want to go to the next appointment with him - I just get this feeling that the whole story isn't being told/heard.....I know of too many people that had been giving cries for help but were ignored/blown off until it was too late.....one was the son of a good friend of mine.....

I think going to his next appointment is a very smart move. Along the same lines, I become a pussy cat around my GI. I always bring my hubby along because he speaks up and pushes me to be more vocal, too.

I hope the combination of new treatment plan and speaking to someone will help your husband's mind set.

 

[Lisa]

tell your husband that when we're dealing with depression issues we may try to make bad decisions (like ending a relationship). It's within his best interests to watch for any decisions that seem to be influenced by his mood and then hold off on them. I've done some _terrible_ things when I was really depressed. trying to isolate yourself and break off relationships is a thing that happens. I'm sure his therapist has to be telling him this, but he needs to also work on positive thinking vs. negative thinking which can make depression worse. its called cognitive behavior therapy if curious.

Be positive when you can, don't enable him if he tries to wallow, don't push him to talk when he seems absolutely unable to do so, but encourage him to come to you whenever he needs an ear.

as always, good luck!

Carrie - I do think that many of his 'decisions' are made (or verbalized) during a period of heightened emotional response - I do try to give him a few minutes to try to start calming down by himself, then go to him - sometimesI will have our daughter check on him and give him a hug (as a reminder there is more than just me here!).....

He does try to minimalize things - he will say something like 'things' aren't going right - then I have to push him to tell me what 'things'.....then I try to talk him through it, and sometimes relate it to how others would react - that is one of the big things.....

For example - he dropped the whisk last night while trying to prop it in a pot....while I would have probably said 'crap' and picked it up and cleaned up (or let hte cats eat the spilled soup) - his response was to go almost ballistic - started to scream, stomped out of the kitchen and into the spare room, where he screamed into a pillow.....this time however he did NOT slam any doors or punch any walls (has happened in the past)....

So, a small step with that, but a lot more need to be taken!

 

[KWalker]

I definately think his thoughts of not caring if he gets in a car accident on the way to work needs to be brought up. My fiancee' actually takes Paxil because she suffers from anxiety and it seems to really help her as well. People just need to be aware that these are just band-aids, and there really is no cure. You just hope it goes away over time, which does happen. I think it's a good idea that you're going to his next appointment and I'd love to hear back after you do so.

The reason I asked about his job was to determine whether or not the problems were coming from something work related or not. Harassment, stress from the boss, heavy workload, etc.

I have one more question, and please, I really hope you don't take this offensive. Is it at all possible that he's doing this for attention? A lot of children act out because they feel they don't get as much attention as their siblings so they want the parent to notice them, but quite a few adults do it as well. Do you get that impression at all?

Thanks a lot for updating us and I hope you get some good news when you go with him to the counselor.

 

[Lisa]

OMG is he an ASS tonight.....have to vent - things were pretty darned GOOD today - then he got upset with out daughter (with cause)....which stressed him....he went into the bedroom to sulk a bit....I wasn't sure how long he was going to be in there so I started to cook the hamburger for spaghetti sauce for dinner....he came out when it was about half done. took one look and back in the bedroom he went....

I went in a few minutes later, now he is telling me he has made up his mind and he is going to leave - so he doesn't have 'outside influences' to his emotions/moods....********!...... OMG.....he still hasn't come out - I did go in and try to talk to him a bit - he was quite calm, and commented about not having an 'escape' from here - he doesn't consider this home...YET - he refuses to get involved with anything out here - fire department, bowling, any social activities.....

As far as acting out - I think that plays a part of it - but then he complains if I take care of things, when it is just doing what needs to be done....I'm sure many of you know- a Mom's gotta do what a Mom's gotta do!...even if it is juggling 5 things at one.....

Oh - forget if I mentioned it, but he DID take Paxil in the past with good results.....hoping this Prozac kicks in soon!

He is also now taking something at night - begins with an S.....is an anti-psychotic.....hoping that will help his shut his mind down and sleep- only been 1 night with that so we will see....

Hoping some friends will talk some sense into him this weekend - he DID say we will still go through with Christmas - I already did tell he he better NOT ruin it for our daughter!