MAP Vaccine Ready for Human Trials - Could be Used for Crohn's

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There are two parts of this process.

1.) Donations to fund the test
2.) Financing to fund the production of the vaccine, and the stage 1 clinical trials.

After the clinical trials, the vaccine will be sold to a large pharma company for distribution. My skepticism and worry was centered around the idea that it may be sold to a company like Abbvie, who would then shelve the vaccine in favor of continued promotion of Humira.
 
VilliVagabond said:
There are two parts of this process.

1.) Donations to fund the test
2.) Financing to fund the production of the vaccine, and the stage 1 clinical trials.

After the clinical trials, the vaccine will be sold to a large pharma company for distribution. My skepticism and worry was centered around the idea that it may be sold to a company like Abbvie, who would then shelve the vaccine in favor of continued promotion of Humira.
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This is why the internet is a great thing. The people with crohns who are aware of MAP won't let that happen.
 
VilliVagabond said:
2.) I am worried that this vaccine will be bought by big pharma and then will disappear -> they'll claim it doesn't work, and then will shelve it to keep profiting off of Humira and other biologics.
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My sisters husband worked for a small company that had a promising islet cell process. The company had plans to really change the treatment landscape for diabetes. Some big pharma company came along and made them an offer that made the owners incredibly rich, and the company was sold. The therapy was never heard from again. Nobody can come along and pick up the work, or they'd be stepping on patents, so the status quo of suffering continues.

What we need is a way to wrest control from the established companies, but they are so loaded with money, they can usually simply buy off the owners of the paradigm changers. If each one of us was an owner, though, that might be a solution. If 100,000 people put in $50 each, which would put them in the treatment queue, then if a buyout came along at $100, or $500 or whatever, the answer would be "no, I won't give up my chance at a cure for fifty or a couple hundred bucks"
 
We all need to be on our game to make sure that doesnt happen….there is no doubt in my mind that a big pharma company, if they were aware there was a cure, they would TRY to buy out JHT for millions….millions and millions, hundreds of millions!
 
7vNH said:
My sisters husband worked for a small company that had a promising islet cell process. The company had plans to really change the treatment landscape for diabetes. Some big pharma company came along and made them an offer that made the owners incredibly rich, and the company was sold. The therapy was never heard from again. Nobody can come along and pick up the work, or they'd be stepping on patents, so the status quo of suffering continues.

What we need is a way to wrest control from the established companies, but they are so loaded with money, they can usually simply buy off the owners of the paradigm changers. If each one of us was an owner, though, that might be a solution. If 100,000 people put in $50 each, which would put them in the treatment queue, then if a buyout came along at $100, or $500 or whatever, the answer would be "no, I won't give up my chance at a cure for fifty or a couple hundred bucks"
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that is very sad about the diabetes…what was the treatment?
the more you get into this medical pharm world you realise how it is entriely driven by profit and they are profiting off the diseases, big time.
 
I swear to God that if something like that would happen and somehow they would manage to stop a cure. I would blow them up and take them down. I have 110% faith in John and Amy, since I also met with them, but the pain and suffering that we have been going through and still go through got to end.
 
happy poo poo said:
that is very sad about the diabetes…what was the treatment?
the more you get into this medical pharm world you realise how it is entriely driven by profit and they are profiting off the diseases, big time.
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I got a very high-level description of the treatment while my brother in law was still working on it. It wasn't a typical chemical/pill, I know that much. Later, after they got bought out, he didn't want to talk about the details...I think he had to sign something. He did say that it looked awesome in the mouse trials and he was/is very disappointed that the big pharma company seems to have simply buried it. He also was the most junior member in the company (every other employee was a PhD), so he didn't profit very much from the sale...another reason to be disappointed.

The business model is totally messed up when the goal of a company is the status quo that makes them the most money. I wish there were an easy answer, but I think the best thing to do now is to keep laser focus on promising ideas and do what we can to keep them from getting buried.
 
7vNH said:
I got a very high-level description of the treatment while my brother in law was still working on it. It wasn't a typical chemical/pill, I know that much. Later, after they got bought out, he didn't want to talk about the details...I think he had to sign something. He did say that it looked awesome in the mouse trials and he was/is very disappointed that the big pharma company seems to have simply buried it. He also was the most junior member in the company (every other employee was a PhD), so he didn't profit very much from the sale...another reason to be disappointed.

The business model is totally messed up when the goal of a company is the status quo that makes them the most money. I wish there were an easy answer, but I think the best thing to do now is to keep laser focus on promising ideas and do what we can to keep them from getting buried.
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speaking of being buried, i was watching c-span the other day and the director of the Director of The CDC was talking about antibiotic resistance issues then C. difficile infection, I expected to then hear about fecal transplants, which are an amazing miraculous solution to this deadly GI disease but no mention whatsoever. He did talk about the microbiome and how bacteria are our friends and antibiotics wont solve everything, i thought that was an immediate segway into fecal transplants. It was his chance to give people hope but perhaps he was protecting people from DIY fecal transplants, that's a possibility. last thing we want is everyone trying this and taking big risks, but just think of what an antibiotic does to us now, its a new risk factor for many chronic diseases, doing a fecal transplant we will soon find there is less risks then antibiotics when the donor is disease free.
 
sir.clausin said:
I swear to God that if something like that would happen and somehow they would manage to stop a cure. I would blow them up and take them down. I have 110% faith in John and Amy, since I also met with them, but the pain and suffering that we have been going through and still go through got to end.
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You and me both.
 
I was talking to a GI doctor yesterday and I asked him if he knew about Dr. Herman-Taylor and his vaccine. He did not know anything about it. I then asked if he believed that Crohn's was caused by MAP and he said no, but then added that there is not enough research to support the theory. He does know of Dr. Borody though.
What is the magic number regarding research supporting a theory? Does anybody here happen to have any idea how many studies there are regarding MAP and Crohn's ? The argument that there is not enough evidence to support the theory seems to be common amount MAP skeptics. It would be nice to be able to counter with a number ... instead of just saying, "oh, but there are a lot of studies ...".
 
Mommabear said:
... I then asked if he believed that Crohn's was caused by MAP and he said no, but then added that there is not enough research to support the theory. ...
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My understanding is that they have not been able to detect enough MAP bacterium in biopsy/resected samples to pin the cause on it. I think that's why both Dr. Hermon-Taylor and the RedHill approach is to come up with a diagnostic tool to detect coupled with a medical treatment.

This article explores the topic some more.
 
Mommabear said:
I was talking to a GI doctor yesterday and I asked him if he knew about Dr. Herman-Taylor and his vaccine. He did not know anything about it. I then asked if he believed that Crohn's was caused by MAP and he said no, but then added that there is not enough research to support the theory. He does know of Dr. Borody though.
What is the magic number regarding research supporting a theory? Does anybody here happen to have any idea how many studies there are regarding MAP and Crohn's ? The argument that there is not enough evidence to support the theory seems to be common amount MAP skeptics. It would be nice to be able to counter with a number ... instead of just saying, "oh, but there are a lot of studies ...".
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last time i checked into the map theory of crohn's the studies i read found higher levels of map in crohn's patients compared to control or uc patients.

Higher levels also means they found map in UC and healthy controls, which pretty much contradicts the theory of causation. All we can really say it seems is that crohns patients seem to harbor more map, that is all. We also have more ecoli then uc or controls, i wonder why their isnt just as much people pointing fingers at ecoli?? some of this may be inaccurate mind you, this is from memory and not my area of expertise. sorry i didnt provided references either, most of my information is directly from scientific articles tho but my memory occasionally fails me.
 
That's not true wildbill, they've actually proved causation by koch's postulates... So it without a doubt is a cause in at least a percentage of people with CD
 
Joshuaaa said:
That's not true wildbill, they've actually proved causation by koch's postulates... So it without a doubt is a cause in at least a percentage of people with CD
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here is koch's postulate #1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch's_postulates

"The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms."


If it is true that MAP is also found in healthy patients, then MAP does not fulfill the first requirement of causation.
Consider this reference:

Interestingly, MAP is at the center of a controversy as to its role (cause of, perpetuate of, innocent bystander) in Crohn’s disease, ulcerative colitis, irritable bowel syndrome, diabetes, sarcoidosis, Blau syndrome, and multiple sclerosis—diseases in which the incidence of systemic MAP is higher than that in the general population.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3909502/

Notice they claimed it was higher, and not absent in the general population therefore, doesn't fullfill postulate #1. This may be wrong but If you have better source of information please post it.
 
On my phone, so I can't be searching and posting studies, there's another criteria of causation that's been fulfilled, also Wikipedia isn't the most accurate source. But anyway, they took isolated map from a resected piece of a CD patient, they used that same MAP isolate with an animal test subject, I can't remember if it was a goat or cow or what, but anyway, that animal developed johnes/cd after being infected where as it was perfectly healthy before..
 
wildbill_52280 said:
here is koch's postulate #1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch's_postulates

"The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms."


If it is true that MAP is also found in healthy patients, then MAP does not fulfill the first requirement of causation.
Consider this reference:
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Did you read the next sentence on Wiki?
However, Koch abandoned the universalist requirement of the first postulate altogether when he discovered asymptomatic carriers of cholera[5] and, later, of typhoid fever. Asymptomatic or subclinical infection carriers are now known to be a common feature of many infectious diseases, especially viruses such as polio, herpes simplex, HIV, and hepatitis C.
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Do we know of anyone on this forum that is on the current RHB-104 anti-MAP therapy for Crohns patients? Is there a thread? I'm debating between this and ssi
 
Poppysocks said:
Do we know of anyone on this forum that is on the current RHB-104 anti-MAP therapy for Crohns patients? Is there a thread? I'm debating between this and ssi
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Yes, I can put you in touch with someone who is on the RHB-104 trial
 
Mommabear said:
I was talking to a GI doctor yesterday and I asked him if he knew about Dr. Herman-Taylor and his vaccine. He did not know anything about it. I then asked if he believed that Crohn's was caused by MAP and he said no, but then added that there is not enough research to support the theory. He does know of Dr. Borody though.
What is the magic number regarding research supporting a theory? Does anybody here happen to have any idea how many studies there are regarding MAP and Crohn's ? The argument that there is not enough evidence to support the theory seems to be common amount MAP skeptics. It would be nice to be able to counter with a number ... instead of just saying, "oh, but there are a lot of studies ...".
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There have been many hundreds of research papers published on the subject of Crohn's/MAP, but I would agree more research is needed because several key tools were missing or the methods applied were faulty - in particular an accurate and reliable test to show whether a patient is infected with MAP is needed.

Also, what would constitute proof that MAP is the cause? For most GI doctors "proof" is a medication they can prescribe which kills MAP and makes patients better. If you are a research scientist, Koch's postulates were proven many years ago confirming MAP as the cause of Crohn's but this has been largely ignored by clinicians.
 
wildbill_52280 said:
last time i checked into the map theory of crohn's the studies i read found higher levels of map in crohn's patients compared to control or uc patients.

Higher levels also means they found map in UC and healthy controls, which pretty much contradicts the theory of causation.
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No, it is not that simple. You can be infected with MAP for years and not develop symptoms as it is a very slow growing, intracellular bacteria and there is clearly a genetic element as to whether you are susceptible to mycobacteria infection (the well known Crohn's NOD2 mutation, for example) and will develop chronic inflammation. The situation is similar to another disease tuberculosis, which is caused by Mycobacterium tuberculosis (Koch's postulate not met, but no one disputes the cause) where about 90% of people infected will have latent asymptomatic tuberculosis.
 
wildbill_52280 said:
here is koch's postulate #1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch's_postulates

"The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms."


If it is true that MAP is also found in healthy patients, then MAP does not fulfill the first requirement of causation.
Consider this reference:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3909502/

Notice they claimed it was higher, and not absent in the general population therefore, doesn't fullfill postulate #1. This may be wrong but If you have better source of information please post it.
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For this reason, Koch's postulates were superceded by Relman's criteria as postulate #1 is often not met for many bacteria/viruses
 
JMC, what is your opinion on the fact scientists are finding reduced diversity in good bacteria which regulate inflammation and the potential these missing bacteria could be the cause of inflammation in IBD?

Quote:
Conversely, the microbiota of individuals with chronic
inflammation show lower bacterial diversity and it has
been determined that Clostridium clusters IV, particularly
F. prausnitzii, and XIVa are significantly less abundant in
IBD patients compared to healthy subjects [14,98,101].
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Source: http://www.gutpathogens.com/content/pdf/1757-4749-5-23.pdf


Quote:
Although the cause of inflammatory bowel disease remains
unknown, the indigenous intestinal microbiota is considered
a major if not the main trigger of inflammation, both in
animal models and in humans.
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Source: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-230X/13/20

indigenous-originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native


Also, how do you explain the reports we have regarding Fecal Transplants to have induced long remissions in IBD both crohn's? Is it possible that the restoration of good bacteria that are missing and which regulate inflammation could have initiated a remission or a cure?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24222969?dopt=Abstract
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-18/sydney-doctor-claims-poo-transplants-curing-diseases/5329836

How do you think these facts relate to what you know about MAP and the cause of crohn's disease? Were you previously aware of these facts i just provided? Do you believe these scientific findings have any relevance to the treatment of IBD?

I'm interested in learning more details of MAP in regards to crohn's/IBD but tentatively I suspect that map is not of any causative relationship and is just another pathogen among others like AIEC that will be abolished with a fecal transplant when the missing bacteria in IBD patients are restored.
 
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I tried to get my son on it but he has a fistula so it was a no go. I talked to the doctor anyway and he suggested that my son go on Remicade to help close it, but that is a biologic which also excludes him. Hope you have better luck! By the way, he is directing the study in my area but he actually does not believe in the bacteria theory ...
 
Sorry, the reply above was to answer poppysocks.

From what I can gather FMT has not been as successful as many had hoped in treating Crohn's and Dr. Borody in an opinion piece published I believe in May, basically admits that the protocol for FMT needs to be determined. Apparently, it has been successful for some, but not for others.

Personally, I had great hopes for FMT, and I am not ruling it out any more than I am ruling out any other potential treatment, but perhaps FMT has not worked because the damn MAP rears it's ugly head. Or perhaps a one two punch needs to happen: the RHB-104 treatment and the a fecal transplant to reboot the system.

In any case, I want to see the vaccine available and SOON! It will put to rest this endless debate. All Crohn's sufferers and those close to them deserve to know!
 
I ran across this write-up yesterday and it asks the question where's the MAP in Crohn's patients, and suggests that MAP may not necessarily harbor directly in the inflammation/infection sites, but rather in the endothelial cells of the vascular and lympathic systems of the mesentary and this may be why it's hard to observe directly in intestinal tissue samples.

A while back I also saw a YouTube presentation by Dr. Marcel Behr at McGill, that IIRC, suggested something about MAP related to the mesentary.
 
wildbill_52280 said:
JMC, what is your opinion on the fact scientists are finding reduced diversity in good bacteria which regulate inflammation and the potential these missing bacteria could be the cause of inflammation in IBD?
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Wildbill,
I am not sure my opinion is of any great value, I am just a Crohn's patient,with a scientific background (PhD in Physics) who has read several hundred scientific papers on a subject that caught my interest - the relationship between MAP and Crohn's. From what I have read, MAP is a very credible candidate for being the cause of Crohn's, but I also accept that more research and better tools (tests and treatments) are needed to finally close the case.

For what it is worth, my opinion would be: what is causing the reduction in diversity of the good bacteria in IBD patients? Without a clear model explaining how and why that happens, the observation is of limited value.

wildbill_52280 said:
Also, how do you explain the reports we have regarding Fecal Transplants to have induced long remissions in IBD both crohn's?
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I am aware of fecal transplants and the work of Prof Thomas Borody. Have you watched this? My understanding is that it is an effective treatment for ulcerative colitis, rather than Crohn's.


wildbill_52280 said:
Is it possible that the restoration of good bacteria that are missing and which regulate inflammation could have initiated a remission or a cure?
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I can believe you may be able to achieve remission, just as I believe it may be possible through eating a very restrictive diet. I doubt however, it is a cure unless you can explain how your microbiota got into a bad state in the first place and can prevent that from happening again.

wildbill_52280 said:
How do you think these facts relate to what you know about MAP and the cause of crohn's disease?
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Currently, I believe Crohn's is caused by an immune deficiency which makes us susceptible to mycobacterial infections (specifically Mycobacterium avium sub-species Paratuberculosis). Once a MAP infection becomes established you will suffer immune dysregulation in the gut, chronic inflammation and changes in the microbiota. I like this infographic.


So the important steps:
1) Immune deficiency
2) MAP infection
3) Microbiota changes

I think you need to address the problem at the earliest point in the chain, how is a fecal transplant going to achieve that?

wildbill_52280 said:
Were you previously aware of these facts i just provided?
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Mostly, yes.

wildbill_52280 said:
Do you believe these scientific findings have any relevance to the treatment of IBD?
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Yes, especially if they provide a safer way of achieving remission than the current crop of biologic therapies.

wildbill_52280 said:
I'm interested in learning more details of MAP in regards to crohn's/IBD but tentatively I suspect that map is not of any causative relationship and is just another pathogen among others like AIEC that will be abolished with a fecal transplant when the missing bacteria in IBD patients are restored.
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I believe we have a immune deficiency and replacing the missing good bacteria will only be a temporary fix unless you address the underlying cause.
 
And then papers like this come along and you realise we may all be attacking the same problem (MAP infection) from different angles.


"This report presents a rationale for how/why Dietzia subsp. C79793-74 should be clinically evaluated for efficacy in patients with IBD. Arguments are based on previous studies that demonstrated (a) clinical similarities of Johne’s disease and Crohn’s disease, (b) inhibition of growth of MAP by Dietzia under specific culture conditions, (c) safe
usage for extended daily treatments of adult cattle (up to 24 months), and (d) when used as a probiotic, curtailed
diarrhea and cured 40% of adult cattle with early stage paratuberculosis."
 
Google crohnsmapvaccine and their Facebook page. The vaccine is ready for human trial. It is only the funding that is now needed. As governments are not interested, it is up to the Crohn's community. Please take a look and donate what you can. If every Crohn's sufferer in the world gave just £1 we would have more than enough for the therapeutic vaccine and diagnostic test. Only then will this disease be consigned to history where it belongs. Crohn's is spreading fast and we can stop it. This is now URGENT. Get giving!
 
I really appreciate the above MAP/CD causation discussion, and am thankful for this site and the people who's thoughtful contributions make it so valuable.

The recent discussion reminds me of a similar problem...one that was "solved". The word is in quotes because even to this day, although there is agreement that a pathogen is require (but not sufficient), the "solution", thought to be benign, actually may not be.

"The only good H.Pylori is a dead H.Pylori" became (and still is, generally) the rallying cry of the practitioners. I am talking about H.Pylori/stomach ulcer situation. Many of us carry H.Pylori asymptomatically. There is considerable evidence that H.Pylori is protective in younger people! It serves to strengthen the immune system. And there is evidence (no one here needs to be reminded) that antibiotics used to eradicate H.Pylori might not be as benign as once thought. A good read on the whole microbiome diversity for health can be found in a book called "Missing Microbes".

The point I wanted to make was that the progression of the medical community towards consolidation on the stomach ulcer issue might be similar to the progression on the CD issue. If you explore the detailed history of campylobacter-like organisms and work your way to the current thinking, it might be an interesting exploration. Who was arguing for the change in thinking? Who was the hero, and what extrordinary action was taken to change thinking?
 
7vNH said:
I really appreciate the above MAP/CD causation discussion, and am thankful for this site and the people who's thoughtful contributions make it so valuable.

The recent discussion reminds me of a similar problem...one that was "solved". The word is in quotes because even to this day, although there is agreement that a pathogen is require (but not sufficient), the "solution", thought to be benign, actually may not be.

"The only good H.Pylori is a dead H.Pylori" became (and still is, generally) the rallying cry of the practitioners. I am talking about H.Pylori/stomach ulcer situation. Many of us carry H.Pylori asymptomatically. There is considerable evidence that H.Pylori is protective in younger people! It serves to strengthen the immune system. And there is evidence (no one here needs to be reminded) that antibiotics used to eradicate H.Pylori might not be as benign as once thought. A good read on the whole microbiome diversity for health can be found in a book called "Missing Microbes".

The point I wanted to make was that the progression of the medical community towards consolidation on the stomach ulcer issue might be similar to the progression on the CD issue. If you explore the detailed history of campylobacter-like organisms and work your way to the current thinking, it might be an interesting exploration. Who was arguing for the change in thinking? Who was the hero, and what extrordinary action was taken to change thinking?
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yes this book "missing bacteria" is pretty much the book i would have wanted to write if i was actually working the field, these new scientific observations will be re-writing our previous theory of germs which has been what our scientific medical system is based upon. say good bye to the old germ theory model of disease. we will be consuming good germs rather then using antibiotics in the future. c difficile infections seem to be a similar situation to h pylori, they only become virulent when other species become extinct and allow c. difficile to grow unchecked. this is why many case of C. difficile do not respond to antibiotics, and only respond to a fecal transplant which seem to be 100% curative. c difficile infections symptoms are nearly identical to IBD symptoms, except you are more likely to die from c difficile. antibiotics are identified as the #1 risk factor to developing c diff.

there are reports of UC diagnosis changing to cd overtime, I believe all these gi diseases with eventually be defined by a combination of what good bacteria are missing and which pathogens have overgrown to dominate, with some genetics playing a smaller role.
 
Looking at the potential cost of 1 year on humira or Remicade runs anywhere from $14,0000 to $33,000, I TOTALLY fail to understand why there has not been a stampede of folks donating to the vaccine. Forget for the moment the misery this disease brings, why are our governments not supporting this vaccine? It is insane! It obviously does not take a mathematical genius to look at the costs of these drugs, the hospital stays, emergency room visits, surgeries, etc., multiply by the numbers of cases worldwide and that are increasing exponentially in some countries, to realize that the $400,000 or so needed for the test is chump change! Our governments and private insurance plans subsidize medication that does not necessarily always work for everyone, and that is ok because they work for some. Yet, there is no support for the most viable option for a true cure, supported by excellent science, numerous studies .... I am dumbfounded!
 
Couldn't agree more Mommabear. I find it rather depressing that Professor Hermon Taylor's work isn't being supported better than it is. If for no other reason, we need to have the question about MAP and Crohns answered once and for all and his work is the best chance we are going to get to do this. Why aren't more people donating? The MAP theory has met Koch's postulates, what else do we need to know?
 
7vNH said:
The point I wanted to make was that the progression of the medical community towards consolidation on the stomach ulcer issue might be similar to the progression on the CD issue. If you explore the detailed history of campylobacter-like organisms and work your way to the current thinking, it might be an interesting exploration. Who was arguing for the change in thinking? Who was the hero, and what extrordinary action was taken to change thinking?
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Can you save me the time of searching for this an tell me the answer? :)
 
7vNH said:
http://discovermagazine.com/2010/mar/07-dr-drank-broth-gave-ulcer-solved-medical-mystery
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Clinical onset of the Crohn's disease after eradication therapy of Helicobacter pylori infection with antibiotics. Could the antibiotics have caused IBD?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11208510


My interpretation of this case is that the amoxicillin antibiotic eliminated beneficial microbes which regulate inflammation in gi tract, setting up for IBD later. This was what likely happened to me only i took amoxicillin-clavulanic acid(brand Augmentin) for respiratory infection months before developing crohns.

This is the best evidence yet in humans showing bifidobacteria and commensal clostridia sensitive to amoxicillin-clavulanic acid in a human being.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC356823/

additional evidence shows this antibiocs ability to kill these bacteria is not a coincidence or study fluke.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC375311/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20601031
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20002181
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20889009
http://aac.asm.org/content/48/4/1365.full


Clostridia are the most potent regulators of inflammation and butyrate producers. These bacteria are now shown to be fewer in crohn's compared to healthy people.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3565871/




These are the are only some of the scientific reasons i believe low diversity in beneficial intestinal microbes are the first cause of inflammation and any pathogens you acquire afterwards only initiates different kinds of inflammation adding to the total inflammatory load. low diversity may precede all other events. That's one of the many reasons why I stand firm behind fecal transplants as a treatment and cure, although I am aware of all other evidence and theories for IBD.
http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v18/n5/full/nm.2767.html


Here is a paper that discusses the correlation of the rise of chronic Diseases being linked to reduction in biodiversity around the world, don't forget that we have been pumping livestock with antibiotics as well as ourselves and all this goes in the water supply. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3207110/#!po=2.94118


Here is a paper that discusses the correlation between the Eradication of Infectious diseases(through antibiotics perhaps) with the steady rise of chronic diseases suggesting the former could be the cause of the latter.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841829/

See my signature below for more info.
 
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And that's what likely happened to me too! I was diagnosed with H Pylori and took three very strong antibiotics which made me feel dreadful. Months later, Crohns symptoms started,
 
Ha! I can remember the consultant who performed my endoscopy and diagnosed H Pylori telling me that he, too, had been diagnosed with the bug but had decided not to treat it as it had been proven to have some benefits in the body. I wish I had listened to him and not my GP who thought it best to treat it with antibiotics.
 
Mommabear said:
I think this was already posted, but nevertheless here it is: http://www.researchgate.net/profile...ucosal_Tissues/links/0a85e5358158944ea2000000

This makes a lot of sense, i.e. Crohn's as a syndrome rather than 1 disease, and explains why the lucky few manage to beat it through different treatments. Developing an accurate test for MAP will greatly enhance choice of effective treatments.
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It's refreshing that there is research like this that tries to dispel the notion that Crohn's is an auto-immune disease. Quoting the article "The notion that Crohn’s disease is an autoimmune disease has long been dismissed." I wish GIs would stop calling it an autoimmune disease too.

This article is interesting in that it splits the disease to two biotypes, one that seems to point the finger as MAP and related bacterium as a cause, the other to adherant invasive species as a cause.

I hope this is the case, and a combination MAP/SSI vaccine can throw this disease's ass out to the alley.
 
I think it will, theres gotta be a reason why some people have gone into 100% sustained remission from SSI vaccine, and some have gone into 100% sustained remission from anti-map therapy, and some others have benefited but not quite gotten to remission, I'd be extremely interested in giving the later group both and seeing what potential benefit that may have.
 
xeridea said:
This article is interesting in that it splits the disease to two biotypes, one that seems to point the finger as MAP and related bacterium as a cause, the other to adherant invasive species as a cause.
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Our
results suggest that Crohn’s disease patients may be divided
into distinct populations or biotypes: a population con-
taining plasmid-mediated adherence/invasion genes and the
other Mycobacterium-associated IS900 and 251F sequences.
These biotypes were found to be mutually exclusive: inva-
sion/adherence genes were not found in patients in which
IS900/251F was detected and vice versa.
Click to expand...

This might explain why it's been so hard to find "a solution" to Crohn's....if the Crohn's population is split in half between the two biotypes, no treatment can fix better than 50% of the population.
 
Is it possible to make vaccines against common ecoli strains? I'm sure I read about one somewhere.

Surely all this means that crohns patients need to practice very, very good hygiene? Could a mild food poisoning episode put us into flare? I read somewhere that we can clear small amounts of bacteria, but there's a limit beyond which things cascade. Lots of vit d prob helps too
 
Joshuaaa said:
I think it will, theres gotta be a reason why some people have gone into 100% sustained remission from SSI vaccine, and some have gone into 100% sustained remission from anti-map therapy, and some others have benefited but not quite gotten to remission, I'd be extremely interested in giving the later group both and seeing what potential benefit that may have.
Click to expand...
100% remission from ssi vaccine? when did this happen? do you have a link?
 
Look up Trevor Wilson, I´ve spoken to him at several occasions. He is and still is in 100% full remission 3y after going off the SSI-treatment. He say that his values are like a normal person.
 
However, I know that I have a full blown very nasty MAP-infection (confirmed by the professor, but I am on the SSI-vaccine hoping that it will finally give my body some rest from it´s constant fighting in a inflamed body. I will go on the anti MAP when I´m done with the SSI, IF I am in remission.

This disease sucks big time!
 
Last edited:
sir.clausin said:
Look up Trevor Wilson, I´ve spoken to him at several occasions. He is and still is in 100% full remission 3y after going off the SSI-treatment. He say that his values are like a normal person.
Click to expand...

seems there is a trevor:
http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=58980


and a tyler wilson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEFrrAxAP6I

maybe you mixed these names up perhaps.

Im not sure how trust worthy these reports and sources are, but i will be scrutinizing these reports over the next week to determine the quality of evidence that exists for the vaccine and the map theory of crohn's. i did look at the link to dr. herman taylors site and there was helpful infomation on their but if anyone would like to provide links to me in private as far as any good evidence exists that would be great.
 
Yeah he meant Tyler Wilson, there's also another 3 ladies that went into 100% histological remission from the SSI that we're dx w crohns, Tyler is the longest standing one but I believe the others have also sustained remission.

Seb, I think your spot on with the anti-map combo alongside the SSI vaccine, have you been chatting to Prof. Borody?
 
Is there any site where one can make donations for Prof. H.Taylor's work ??

If not we must take initiative to somehow make a collection...a place where Crohns' sufferers and their family members can make the donation. Waiting for the Govt. seems a bad idea.
 
Please do donate and ask your loved ones to donate too!
We have also several fundraisers who try to raise funds for this, just google facebook Crohn's MAP vaccine Heroes.
 
I just saw this on the MAP facebook page from yesterday.

"IRS tax id number created. Check. Tax exempt bank account opened. "

So it sounds like there is/will be a way to make a tax deductible donation. That doesn't matter to me but I know it's an incentive for some folks who donate.
 
Cool, hopefully that gets up soon, I think itl entice more ppl to donate, also wondering if they've updated the amount needed to real time so we can see the progress.
 
JMC said:
The sad truth is years are passing by and this potential cure is waiting untested due to lack of funding.
Click to expand...
JMC do you know how much has been raised towards the 80K November target for the test portion? The vaccine web site doesn't show that clearly.

For the trial itself it says they are raising that through investment and not charitable contributions. Do you know what investor shares cost?
 
xeridea said:
JMC do you know how much has been raised towards the 80K November target for the test portion? The vaccine web site doesn't show that clearly.
Click to expand...

There are regular updates on the Facebook page, it was £26,900 on 2nd August and there are a few larger donations coming in the next few weeks.

xeridea said:
For the trial itself it says they are raising that through investment and not charitable contributions. Do you know what investor shares cost?
Click to expand...

I believe minimum investment is about £50,000 (US$84,000 approximately)
 
Mommabear said:
JMC, do you happen to know when Hermon-Taylor's next article will come out?
Click to expand...

I asked him that by email today, no reply yet. I am meeting him on Friday evening, so drop me an email if you have any other questions you want me to ask.
 
Have a look at the King's College London Just Giving Page. It covers fund raising for more than just the Crohn's MAP Vaccine (MEN3936), but as you can see, the Crohn's MAP Vaccine is by far the best supported project with lots of active fund raisers and several people have already raised substantial amounts. :) This is what we want to see, people in the Crohn's community taking positive action!!
 
I am one of those fundraisers (Thanks JMC!). It is so easy to set up a JustGiving page and raise funds for this! All you need is a "good" story, maybe some photos. Then just ask your loved ones, relatives, friends, collegues and other contacts to donate! If you are interested, please contact Crohn's MAP vaccine Heroes via their facebook site or send a pm to me ;-)
 
Paper from 2012, but a real good read for those who are interested.. It's 9 pages long but I found it to hit the nail on the head in regards to crohns as an umbrella term... It's called the many faces crohns, and the authors give an in depth discussion about MAP, intestinal TB, AIEC... I think every crohns patient should read it... Not just patients but relatives etc to give them a better understanding of "CD" and the complexities around it.

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperDownload.aspx?paperID=19619
 
My pleasure, very interesting and promising when you think about the success people have had with the SSI vaccine, I think with 4 years remission, it's entirely possible that Tyler was cured of an AIEC infection which presented as "Crohn's". Now if we could just get this vaccine for MAP happening!
 
Joshuaa - I agree that "Crohn's" has become a "catch all" term in reference to those presenting with symptoms. As research continues to progress, I believe the medical profession will learn that the "disease" is in fact a subset of different problems caused by an individual set of triggers.

For me, for example, the SCD diet has worked wonders. I have at most 1 - 2 bowel movements a day, no swelling, my CRP and SED rate are totally normal (as confirmed by bloodwork and a CT enterography). However, this may not work for someone who has a different "trigger."

We're making progress. Let's pray for a cure in our lifetime (hopefully soon). In the meantime, we can help to fundraise for this vaccine in the hopes that a subset of those with "Crohn's" that is caused by MAP will be cured. The SSI vaccine by Qu is another great treatment. Hopefully in 10 years, we will have a variety of treatments in our arsenal that make this terrible disease an afterthought.
 
I'm tryna go back on scd also as a fail safe, though it's hard when you feel nauseous :( I really hope this thing doesn't take 10 years. Don't know if I can last that long.

JMC when you talk to Prof JHT again or his team can you please chase them up about setting up a PayPal link as an option to donate?
 
Joshuaaa said:
JMC when you talk to Prof JHT again or his team can you please chase them up about setting up a PayPal link as an option to donate?
Click to expand...

It is in the to do list, it needs input from KCL admin as at the moment any giving via PayPal would not be differentiated from donations to other projects
 
ALS has raised over 5.5 million dollars w/the ice bucket challenge.

I wouldn't want to steal the same idea but we can come up with one of our own to go viral???
 
I spoke to Prof John Hermon-Taylor on the phone today and there are several exciting updates to announce soon - keep an eye on Facebook and the Crohn's MAP Vaccine website in the next few weeks. The bottom line is, things are falling into place for the human trials to start in November 2015, which would be amazing!
 
JMC

Just to clarify please. Are the human trials you mention for the MAP test or the MAP vaccine?
 
JMC said:
I spoke to Prof John Hermon-Taylor on the phone today and there are several exciting updates to announce soon - keep an eye on Facebook and the Crohn's MAP Vaccine website in the next few weeks. The bottom line is, things are falling into place for the human trials to start in November 2015, which would be amazing!
Click to expand...
WOW thats excellent!!
 
Oh my goodness! Thank God for Prof H-T and all others looking for a cure for this dreadful disease.
 
That really is amazing news! Any word on eligibility criteria and how many people they will be looking to recruit?
 
I ran across some studies from the early 1980's which proposed using the then 90 year old BCG vaccine, theretofore used for treating tuberculosis, as an immune stimulating approach for treating Crohn's. Say http://gut.bmj.com/content/20/3/229.full.pdf for example. Apparently it was also considered for treating Type I diabetes, but pretty much died on the vine because it could not garner patent protection and thus not worthwhile the investment for clinical trials.

It's just another piece of data which supports the thinking that CD is perhaps an immunodefficiency that can be reset through a proper vaccine.
 

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