Religion and Crohn's

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winemaker

Joined
Oct 1, 2010
Messages
125
Location
Australia
Hi everyone,

I'm interested to hear about your opinions on religion in relation to your Crohn's. I'm sure there is a mix of religious people and atheists on this forum and I'd like to know how you view God. I'd particularly like to hear from the faithful. I guess I would like to know why people pray to get better if God could have prevented it in the first place.

Australia had its first saint canonised by the Pope in the Vatican last Sunday (Mary MacKillop, a nun who was said to cure inoperable cancer and cured a young man of chronic intellectual incapacity).

A young girl named Sophie Delezio was severely injured when a burning car crashed into her child care centre when she was 2 years old (she had burns to 85% of her body and lost bog legs). In 2006, she was struck by another car in her wheelchair as she and her carer were crossing the road. Little Sophie survived that terrible accident too.

The family of Sophie Delezio have credited praying to Mary MacKillop for Sophie's miraculous recovery. The first thing that popped into my head, "where was God when little Sophie was hit by not one, but two cars"?

I've been told that God works in mysterious ways and challenges are sent to test us, personally I think that seems a little sadistic. I'm an atheist however, I don't look down on people who have faith. I'm intrigued by people's beliefs and would like to know what keeps people faithful.

Cheers,

winemaker (not water into winemaker :lol:)

I'd just like to say that this isn't aimed at mocking religion in any way, nor is it aimed at belittling atheists. I hope everyone can be nice and have a decent discussion about this.
 
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I think it's a fine question and one I've asked myself so many times yet never came up with an answer. That's actually how I lost my faith to begin with, that and becoming more and more interested in science. By the time I reached college, I realized that I'm a Deist but I'm still open to other possibilities.

The only answer I've gotten from other people (besides God works in mysterious ways) is that we were inflicted with whatever bad thing to help others but that just brings forth the original question of why let it happen in the first place? Maybe its to help us grow as a person but if you think about it, there are a lot of people who can't handle it and become depressed bringing forth more problems or sometimes they commit suicide. I agree that it does sound sadistic but maybe we just haven't gotten "it" yet, assuming there's anything to get in the first place of course.
 
I am not a religious person and never really have been. My views on god......well I just don't know. I have always worked in the health field and over the years have seen many inexplicable things occur, to patients that have faith and to patients that don't. I don't know why they happen and I don't know if there is a higher hand in it.

From my childhood and being raised in the Presbyterian faith the one thing I can't reconcile myself to is the notion of God being vengeful, that somehow the development of a disease is either a punishment or a test. Even though I have said I don't believe in God I still don't believe that God's place in a person's life is to cause distress and suffering.

Dusty. :)
 
Evolution through natural selection. I should have died because of this disease so that was evolutions way of trying to snuff me out. Most religious peoples don't agree with with the theory of evolution therefore I do not belong to any religion. Getting this disease even strengthened my views of life without religion if anything.
 
I really don't want to get too involved in this thread but if you would like to pm me about anything about my faith I'd be completely willing to share. I will say that my faith in God has brought me from the pit of despair. Quite a few of you guys know that I was pretty depressed for several years until I found my faith in God. Now I'm praying that I can go to seminary next year to become a Catholic priest.

That's as much as I'll put in this thread.

Jeff
 
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my view is that god (if there is one, i do not even completely know what i believe) has no control over events like someone getting an illness or such a terrible accident like the little girl. i dont think he would be 'all powerful'. things just happen. accidents happen because that is the way the universe works. 'miracles' happen because that is the way the universe works. the two are one and the same really....miracle, accident...exact same event, just a different outcome in terms of perceived positivity/negativity. therefore, in my mind, there is no one to blame for the terrible things that happen in the world, because they just happen. but that also means there is no one to blame for the truly mindblowing seemingly impossible things that happen. again, the mystery of a miracle is on the exact same plane as that of a freak accident.
this is the way of thought that i have found to work for me for now. i struggle with believing that someone...or something....has control over each and every detail of the running of the universe. i just....i dont feel comforted by that personally. i DO have faith in i guess a sort of cosmic order. that time and people a relationships and events fall into place just right. but not in a cause and effect sort of way. i dont see it that i needed to learn Lesson A so i was given crohns disease. i see it as an act of chance, something that happened for no meaning or reason at all. the meaning is up to ME to create, rather than discover or find or otherwise figure out "why, who planned this, whats THE point". there is no THE point. just A point....which is up to each of us to piece together as we see fit.

i have had these sort of beliefs for much of my life, but just last year i read, or rather listened to on tape, the book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold Kushner. he very well articulates the confusion and struggle one feels when faced with that question of WHYYYYY is this happening. i found much of what he had to say to be very close to my own beliefs....he makes some very interesting points. he has found a way for him to maintain his faith (he is actually a Rabbai---sp??) while still letting the tragic events of his life indeed AFFECT his faith, as its impossible to not let them affect you in that way. i would definitely reccomend a read/listen...not to change anyones beliefs....but just his perspective is unique and makes you think in different ways.
 
My thoughts:

I beleive in God and do beleive that miracles happen at his hand. However, I also beleive that he for the most part stays out of our business and out of our way in life. The greatest gift he gave us was free will. We are not his robots that he has already made a plan for. Me being sick is not his doing. It was my ancestors free will and their decisions to marry and mate. It was their offsrpings free will to do the same. Somehow through science my genes got funked up and I have Crohns disease. Some combination manifested itself and now I have this disease.

Perhaps it was those people's free will to drive recklessly and hit a child. Perhaps it was the childs free will to wander into the road etc.....We arent perfect beings. Obviously. We make mistakes and are flawed.


Again, I do not beleive he has a plan for everything. He gave us free will to choose if we want to be kind considerate people, or murderers and rapist. He gave us that gift. When bad things happen its usually the cause of people's free will. people use this gift to kill, hurt etc.....thus bad stuff happening.

This is my view.

FWIW, I was raised hardcore catholic my whole life and attended catholic school from K-12. I am no longer a practicing catholic, but do beleive in God to the highest extent and have my own views on the way life is. Im very well versed on religious history( many religions) and studied theology in college. This is one of my many ideas of God and his role in our lives.
 
I am an atheist and part of the small minority of Greek atheists. I think I questioned religion like... forever. I could never stomach the idea of all mighty god.

Then I got sick and had an operation and I almost died. When I woke up from the coma I realised that not only there is not god, there is no afterlife also. Its just... blanc. Non existence is a tottal nothing. And you know what? I can accept that. Non existence is fine all my problems will be automatically solved and I will not have to worry abour anything. Of course my family and friends will be devastated but I will not be able to know that because... well I would be back to the food circle. This aspect of death I can accept. Going somewhere where I would still be worried about paying the bills... no thanks.

And yes, bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people and vice versa Deity has nothing to do. I understand how people find comfort and courage in religion. Its just not my cup of tea KWIM?

Scifimom
 
i dont beleive in god... theres too much evil in the world for there to be a god..i often ask myself did i do anything to deserve this disease and i didnt... they say god is everywhere where was he when all that pain and suffering was happening those poor kids when his servants.i.e catholic priests where molesting and buggering them for years...what did he do help those children in there hour of need???? NOTHING...if i was a god and my representitives on earth were at that i'd sure do somthing about it but he did nothing...it went on in ireland for decades it makes me sick. .. where was god for all the jews in world war2... if god knows everything why didnt he make hitler get a heart attack or somthing before he came to power, he'd have only saved the lives of 50 million people or so....when you see junkies who have kids and cant even look after them and then other people who would make loving parents but aren't able to have kids it makes you think doesn't it....
 
My faith has no problem recognising both God and Science. In answer to your question, with the mis diagnosis of IBS I spent 3 years exactly the same with no hope of getting better. Now I know it's IBD, I have a real shot at remission even though the illness is worse than thought. When I do get better I know I will appreciate each and every one of those days, in a way I wouldn't have before.

That's not to say I am happy with the way things have gone!
 
I will preface my response first by stating that I am a police chaplain. Therefore I have seen the absolute worst of the worst and the horrific of the horrific. I have had to tell parents there children are dead and children their parents are dead. I do not practice a "religion" rather I go to a church that uses the bible as a guide to how I choose to live. My personal relationship to my god it strong and intact and has been for some time. I don't ask why me...if I do that then I have to ask why not me...

As a chaplain I have studied many religions and cultures as it's necessary to be culturally sensitive in doing what I do. I know a lot of "stuff" about religions.

From my observations of seeing tragedy I can tell you that those who have faith fare much better than those who do not. I know that god called me to this ministry and put me in a perfect place. He is with me on each call I go to because without him I could never process what I see. He has given me the ability to deliver life altering news in a compassionate and straight forward way. I believe his spirit is right there with me to help me make sure I take good care of the people I deal with.

My faith boils down to something pretty elementary. It just isn't my place to ask why, plain and simple. I also encourage everyone to read the book Kello talked about. When bad things happen to good people.

This was a great topic to bring up. I believe everyone has the right to practice their religion and worship their god or gods. I guess that makes me a free thinker, huh?

Love you all...

Annie B.
 
I beleive in God and do beleive that miracles happen at his hand. However, I also beleive that he for the most part stays out of our business and out of our way in life. The greatest gift he gave us was free will. We are not his robots that he has already made a plan for. Me being sick is not his doing. It was my ancestors free will and their decisions to marry and mate. It was their offsrpings free will to do the same. Somehow through science my genes got funked up and I have Crohns disease. Some combination manifested itself and now I have this disease.

^^ I feel the same way
 
I was brought up Roman Catholic and had a very strict Dad who made me go to Church every Sunday, which resulted in me hating everything about it, so at the age of 16 I told Dad I wasn't ever going again! And I never did!
So what did God do for my family?
He killed my Dad in an industrial accident in 1998
He let my sister's newborn die in 1999
He gave my Mum Alzeimers in 2000, she died 2010
He gave me a fibroadenoma in 2001, I had a hysterectomy
He let my husband be assaulted and left with a brain injury in 2003
He gave me a diagnosis of Crohn's in 2005
He gave me a life threatening infection in 2010, I nearly died

Do I believe in God? NO WAY!!
I believe in Jesus, he was my first love!
Not dissing anyone's beliefs or religions, each to their own, but if there is a God, he did diddly squat for me and my family!
I believe in Science and why we are here, the Universe and everything!
Oh, and the afterlife? There is no afterlife, if there was, why hasn't Mum and Dad come back to see me and tell me all about it?
I have no Faith, I never pray, I'd rather talk to Yoda!
 
i don't believe in a god.. i don't believe in religion, full stop. however, i completely admire and support those who do believe and act in the name of religion, for the good of mankind. many religions provide an amazing, unspoken, support system including charities for the poor and homeless, and many others who are struggling in some way. so - you will not ever hear me knocking religion, but i just cannot bring myself to believe.

what i do believe though, is that there is an 'after'... but it is not religion-based. i also believe that we have helpers out there, call them angels or connected souls - whatever you wish - but i believe they are not of religious origin either.

i believe in people. i don't think there is any kind of pre-set pattern to who gets ill and who doesn't, i certainly don't believe that when something bad happens to us, we are being tested...

i don't ask the question 'why?' when something goes wrong for me, for people i care about, or globally... because as far as i'm concerned, there are only two possible answers.. either humans caused it, or it just happened - it's that simple.

i sincerely hope i don't cause offence to anyone reading this - i am surrounded in real life by a lot of people who very strongly believe and practice their religion, and i can see how much they get from it, and how much they give - and it's wonderful. it is simply that, if i followed a religion now, feeling as i do, i would be a hypocrite - and i'd rather miss out than be untrue to myself and others.
 
I do not actively believe in "God", although I do believe that this world and the surrounding universe is something more complex than we can ever imagine. I truly believe that when life ends here, we move on to another existence outside of the earth. A whole new plane of existence. The bodies we inhabit on this earth is merely a shell to carry our spirit and soul. The body dies, not the soul. It moves on.
 
Atheist here.

I find it easier to live my life according to "good sense" morals. I don't have to feel bad that I'm upsetting someone above by living in sin with my boyfriend for four years before we got married. I don't have to feel unpure for pre marital sex. I don't have this other thing driving my life to make myself be a good person. I'M driving myself to be a good person on my own free will. I'M dictating as much as I can what happens to me in my life. I take responsibility for the things that have happened that I could have prevented. Everything else that happens is down to science, genetics, human error, greed, love, desire... I don't like the idea of some being 'above' us who has us all predestined to be or do something. I want to make my OWN life. I will do with it as I please, and I want the credit for that. I can't even imagine doing something great or being someone great and thanking God for it... no- I would be the one who worked hard to get there, I would be the one who did it.

I just can't stand to listen to people say that my disease is a "test" in my life. So why is it that I have this "test" and there are other people who have never suffered a day in their lives and who have gotten everything they ever wanted despite their poor character and their lack of morals? How is that fair? How can a God do that? If that's what God is and he's real, I want no part of him.

If God is all knowing and all powerful, why would he let the decision of two people (Adam and Eve) dictate the lives of the rest of the human race with hunger, greed, murder, diseases... How is that fair?

I think the concept of God and heaven and hell was developed to give people hope that this life isn't all there is. But I'm okay with that. I feel you have to make the most of your short time here and be a good person because you want to... not to get you to heaven, not to please a God... but because that is the right thing to do.
 
I'm a believer in God as I was raised Catholic. I have a very strong faith in God and believe it or not this disease has brought me closer to God. Before I became ill, I didn't have a lot of faith as I was depressed because I felt very alone and unloved. However I got diagnosed in '08 and I started asking the question of why me? What did I do to deserve such a diagnosis?

I ended up going to Church with my mother and once we reached the point in the service where we professed our faith in song, I felt this overwhelming feeling of warmth yet I had goosebumps all over my skin and it brought tears to my eyes because in that moment I had never felt as loved as I did right then. It opened my eyes and brought such peace to me and that's when I started getting better and achieved remission for the first time.

I do believe God works in mysterious ways and I know that phrase irritates many people because it's very vague, but there is so much about the world that we can't comprehend yet. I truly believe that my disease was given to me to make me stronger and to bring me closer to God. I've been sick recently and one might think my faith might have weakened, but it has not. Why? Because this time around God has given me my family back. I'm closer to my parents and my eldest two siblings, specifically my oldest sister who I previously didn't keep in touch with. I've never been happier than I have been with my faith and attending Church.
 
After reading everyone's posts thus far I'm reminded of a belief I grew up with (I was brought up Protestant and went to The Assembly of God church). I'm glad Adam and Eve was brought up because that's where it begins. In the Garden of Eden there was no crime, death, disease etc. but once Adam and Eve went against God's wishes they were banished into the world we live in today where death, rape and all sorts of bad things happen along with good. Then I'm glad that free will was brought up as well because its our free will that causes certain things to happen. God does not steer the car into a child and He does not inflict diseases onto others. One may ask, "Well where was God when I needed Him?" And that reminds me of the parable Footsteps that goes:

One Night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with the Lord. Across the sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene, he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand; one belonged to him and the other to the Lord.

When the last scene of his life flashed before him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in his life.

This really bothered him and he questioned the Lord about it. "Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you you'd walk with me all the way, but I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life, there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed you most you would leave me." The Lord replied, "My precious, precious child, I love you and would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you."

In this case God is painted as loving rather than vengeful who can hold a grudge against an entire species just because two of them screwed it up for everyone else. So why can't all be forgiven and let us back into Eden? Well, that's what Heaven is.


This is the belief I was brought up with but had forgotten. For me it doesn't change anything because as said, why hold a grudge on an entire species? I'm a good girl and wont touch your fruit if you say so. I hate it when roommates touch my stuff. Why do we all have to be born with someone elses' sin? Its not fair.
 
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kello82 said:
my view is that god (if there is one, i do not even completely know what i believe) has no control over events like someone getting an illness or such a terrible accident like the little girl. i dont think he would be 'all powerful'. things just happen. accidents happen because that is the way the universe works. 'miracles' happen because that is the way the universe works. the two are one and the same really....miracle, accident...exact same event, just a different outcome in terms of perceived positivity/negativity. therefore, in my mind, there is no one to blame for the terrible things that happen in the world, because they just happen. but that also means there is no one to blame for the truly mindblowing seemingly impossible things that happen. again, the mystery of a miracle is on the exact same plane as that of a freak accident.
this is the way of thought that i have found to work for me for now. i struggle with believing that someone...or something....has control over each and every detail of the running of the universe. i just....i dont feel comforted by that personally. i DO have faith in i guess a sort of cosmic order. that time and people a relationships and events fall into place just right. but not in a cause and effect sort of way. i dont see it that i needed to learn Lesson A so i was given crohns disease. i see it as an act of chance, something that happened for no meaning or reason at all. the meaning is up to ME to create, rather than discover or find or otherwise figure out "why, who planned this, whats THE point". there is no THE point. just A point....which is up to each of us to piece together as we see fit.

i have had these sort of beliefs for much of my life, but just last year i read, or rather listened to on tape, the book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold Kushner. he very well articulates the confusion and struggle one feels when faced with that question of WHYYYYY is this happening. i found much of what he had to say to be very close to my own beliefs....he makes some very interesting points. he has found a way for him to maintain his faith (he is actually a Rabbai---sp??) while still letting the tragic events of his life indeed AFFECT his faith, as its impossible to not let them affect you in that way. i would definitely reccomend a read/listen...not to change anyones beliefs....but just his perspective is unique and makes you think in different ways.
Click to expand...

I kinda agree with you kello, but I have another theory, this is all my own so please if you have input go for it.

I'm doing a degree in science, and we had a discussion about how religion fits into the whole evolution and science thing, and someone mentioned that if God created us, who created God? Where did he come from? And thats when I had an epiphany!!

SO you know that energy cant be created or destroyed,but only changed in form and carried over from one object to another. What if God is just a divine energy, no one created it, it cant be destroyed but can be carried over to other objects (like a Holy ghost type of thing). This would then also explain why god cant really control our lives, or stop bad things from happening.

I think sometimes people mistake god for a "human being"-like thing and then try to blame him for not being there or not preventing stuff from happening, but what if he simply can't??

I dont know hey, the gap between science and religion is still huge, but maybe one day someone smart will figure it all out!

Good post though. Thanx!
 
I wasn't going to mention this, but feel I need to, in light of all the comments

Atheists can be happy, balanced, moral, and intellectually fulfilled.
Natural selection and similar scientific theories are superior to a "God hypothesis" —the illusion of intelligent design— in explaining the living world and the cosmos.
Children should not be labelled by their parents' religion. Terms like "Catholic child" or "Muslim child" should make people cringe.
Atheists should be proud, not apologetic, because atheism is evidence of a healthy, independent mind

These are just 4 of 10 chapters in Richard Dawkins book 'The God Delusion'
In it, Dawkins mentions, and I quote -
'When one person suffers from delusion, it's called insanity, when many people suffer from delusion, it's called religion'

This is an excellent book, and of course it's dedicated to my hero, Douglas Adams!
Worth reading!
 
I notice that no one says anything about the devil. Does anyone one believe that there is a devil and he could be the one causing the bad things in life that happen?
 
I am a Skeptic. Therefore I view an omnipresent being with, well, a lot of skepticism. I tend to put my faith in science. That in itself could be considered a religion. As for spirituality I practice a kind of free style of Zen Buddhism, mixed with various other philosophies, which works for me as in true Buddhism there is no god.

In a nut shell, religion and god are interesting byproducts of the human condition in my opinion but I do think there is something greater than all of us be it life or the universe, or everything...btw I think Douglas Adams is a genius and he is definitely one of my favorite authors!
 
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Religion

Wow! We are all over the place. Thank goodness for free speech! I am a christian. I believe in him...He brings me peace when I am without hope...I would be lost with out him...Oh and tons of therapy!!! LOL
I love this forum!!!
Peace, Sue:hug:
 
I have a strong faith in God, we all have many tragic things happen to friends, family, or ourselves over our lives whether they be minutes or decades. What has God done for me? Well he's given me life and given me the opportunity to be able to draw close to him through Jesus.

The concept of starvation and suffering through war etc is important but should we not ask ourselves (not God) - Why? Why are humans so greedy we don't share resources and food equally throughout the world, why do leaders carry out acts of war resulting in deaths, casualties and pain? Why do people steal, why are some people purposely hurtful, why do some people kill?

At the end of the day everything bad on this earth was caused by humans - freak nature events you ask? Well again, from the initial sin in the world, we reap what we sow. It’s not my fault you might say-and as a baby just born-yeah you maybe haven't sinned but how many of us on here have lived a sinless life? I know I certainly haven’t.

As has been said God loves us and has given us free will, otherwise we'd be robots. The fact that people abuse this does not give anyone an excuse to blame God. God is there if we choose to seek him and if we follow his teachings, we would find the world a better place.

Ok there would still be disease and tragic accidents etc, but God has never said it would be easy or that we will be on the earth forever. People focus too much on the bad things and say why does God allow this etc, and it is easy to do I admit, however pause and count all the good things, that we probably contribute to our own doing or success, perhaps you have a loving wife/husband, children, a great friend, shelter, a good job etc. Let’s turn this on its head and say how many ever hear anyone say “why does God let all these GOOD things happen to me?”

There aren’t many of us who could honestly say that we could have things worse. I look for the positives and blessings, for instance, I have Crohns, and I am thankful that it is not Cancer or a brain tumour etc. I think it is a blessing that I now appreciate the times when i feel well a lot more than before, I’ve been able to meet people either in reality or on here who have the same condition and have enjoyed the experience of doing such. One door shuts another door opens... Whatever happens to us in life we are presented with opportunities-what i took from mine is to realise that good health in youth is not a right and that i am not invincible or immune to things that I always felt would “happen to others”.

Just my thoughts...
 
I am a Christian and have been my whole life. I have been through many many trials and hard times. Way more than any of my friends or immediate family have gone through and I can honestly say I have never wondered "why me". I wholehearted believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit,and the devil. Good and evil. I feel that without God I could'nt have gotten through the trials I have been through. I could'nt imagine my life without my faith or hope for whats to come. My chron's diagnosis has not changed the way I feel.
 
@Astra - I kinda find Richard Dawkin's book, or at least the exerpt, a bit pretentious. I don't know that he means to imply it or not, but the way he wrote it he is suggesting that only athiests are independent thinkers because they Are not apart of an organized religion. I think that's a very close minded way to view the world. I have friends of all different beliefs and they are all very intelligent regardless of what they believe. I'm a very logical person and often times Science actually pushes me back to my beliefs. Everyone has faith of some sort unless you don't know what you believe. Faith is simply believing in something that you can't prove.

@Brenda - I believe the devil exists and is trying to tempt us to fall off the path an is responsible for the evil in the world.
 
I have an oddly different view than most people. I dont believe in religion and i guess you could say i am atheist, but I still believe there is a lot more to our universe, a greater entity that we do not know about. I dont think human beings were created or that an all knowing god created us, I believe we are product of the universe we are in. At the same time I believe that our lives are mapped out before us, everything that is going to happen will happen, everyone that is on this website could not have prevented it, no matter what. I could die tomorrow in a car accident and no matter what, there is nothing I can do to stop it. Its odd and gives me a really accepting view of my life and the world, I have no reason to get mad or upset or sad, because it was my destiny to be in that spot. I also am a firm believer in that everything happens for a reason, if you believe it did. And this is very true, i always try to look for the good in a bad situation and honestly, if you look for it, 99% of the time you will find it.
 
I never ask why me... I don't have to because I don't believe theres a God who couldve prevented it. I know why me-- its because my genetics are just right to produce Crohn's. I know why me when it comes to situations in my life because they are either my fault, someone else's, or a result of a bunch of different factors. To me everything in life is cause and effect.

I guess my point was that if there is an all knowing and all powerful God and people are still suffering... then why them? Why is it that they suffer and others don't? If he could stop it, why doesn't he? In a world without a God the reasons are scientific and human.

I feel that I'm a very positive person and I cope with everything very well. I don't sulk in my disease. I'm not in a state of "why me". I see my challenges, I face them and I move on as best I can. Because what you don't like you must change, and if you can't change it, then you must accept it. There are no other options for me. I don't feel that praying about something to get it fixed is very proactive. Again-- this is coming from an atheist, so many may not agree. And thats okay.
 
I'm not religious at all. I don't care if other people are as long as they don't try and force their views on me (a discussion is fine, just not preaching). For the people that it helps, that's great. It seems to me that it does more harm than good in the grand scheme of things. There's fighting that's been going on for thousands of years and will go on forever because of religion, and I find that very sad.

I just keep going for myself, knowing what's possible and how good it can be. That's enough for me.
 
Thanks for the response everyone, I like it when a group of people can talk about their religious persuasions or lack of, without bickering like children.

I have a friend that believes the Noah's Ark story literally. A few years ago I tried to convince her that it was logistically impossible ("how did Noah house and feed the 4000 known species of termites on his wooden boat", "according to Genesis, the ark was loaded in a 24 hour day therefore, 460 organisms per second must have entered the ark over this period") etc. I rattled off several more logistical anomalies that the ark story presented and could see that no matter what I said, she would never agree.

I then realised it's pointless to try and convince the faithful that God doesn't exist and vice versa. I completely understand that having faith is comforting but, for me personally I can't comprehend the concept of a supernatural supervisor and with so many religions out there, someone must be wrong.
 
winemaker said:
I completely understand that having faith is comforting but, for me personally I can't comprehend the concept of a supernatural supervisor and with so many religions out there, someone must be wrong.
Click to expand...

or as some would say ... everyone is right. LOL
 
katiesue1506 said:
To me everything in life is cause and effect.
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Katie, you use this argument to justify your non-belief but for me it is the evidence that gives me reason to believe. If everything is cause and effect, there had to be a first cause. Science has proven that the universe is not static, it is expanding. If it is expanding then it had to have a starting point. I believe that starting point was triggered by some kind of a creator. Science says that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Then how did it get here?? There must be a first cause. If you only consider God as that first cause, then you still believe. That's how I believe in God. I'm not religious either as I doubt the personal aspect the religious place in their faith. I do believe in a creator of some kind though. To me it's the best explanation for the unanswerable questions. That being said, I do realize they are just that, unanswerable!! This thread could go on for a thousand pages and none of us would be one iota closer to knowing anything. I'm sure it is comforting to the faithful that their faith is all the evidence they need. I've often thought that if God did make me, he made me to be this person full of doubt and question so my lack of devotion isn't all my fault:).
 
Dexky said:
I believe that starting point was triggered by some kind of a creator.
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That would be Deism, what I believe as well, unless you think this possible God also interacts with the world we live in now. Its a belief that He created the universe and then abandoned it.


Someone brought up the Devil and the possibility of him being the cause of disease and other bad things. I can't see how this is possible because the Devil isn't more powerful that God. He's a fallen angel. And if he did in fact have such powers, then that would label God as either uncaring of the children He loves or lazy because if the Devil has the power to inflict illness, then God has the power to take it away. I mean Jesus was supposedly curing blind men and lepers, so if Jesus can do it, then so can God unless He has to be in human form but I haven't heard of the Devil ever taking human form or maybe the Devil is wearing his +1 Helmet of Curse and God missed his saving throw (sorry, started sounding like D&D to me :p I'm a nerd). Maybe God and the Devil like to play real life Dungeons and Dragons with us.
 
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ahh im glad adam and eve was brought up! i actually had a random thought process about that a couple weeks ago.

i was watching this show about survivial, where this guy (who is adept at survival but lives in the modern world) visits different remote cultures and experiences life with them.
the one i was watching was about a village deep in the...amazon? i think it was....who lived off the forest of course. they talk briefly about their clothing....how they make it....they strip layers of wood out of the center of trees and pound and POUND these things until they are soft and pliable as cloth. seriously....wood. made into clothing. i mean imagine the work that takes to make a shirt out of a log. so i was sitting there thinking "my gosh that is SO much effort just to not be naked! why is it worth it?? why dont they all just go naked and save themselves the work and time and evergy??" i mean they dont need the clothing for warmth in this culture...it is purely for coverage.
that made me think of the adam and eve story, which states that once upon a time, people WERE content to go naked and never would dream of 'wasting' so much effort on clothing that had no functional purpose other than covering. and it was only because of man's choice, to disobey God, that the 'punishment' of having to slave so hard just to cover our naked bodies became a part of our lives. among the other punishments were that we would have to work for our food....attain it ourselves. we would have to suffer pain to reproduce. in the story, all of these results are portrayed as negative and a PUNISHMENT.
but thing is....without these consequences....what would we be? we would not be human. sure we would have food availible to us at all times....but we would never know the feeling of accomplisment. we would never know the feeling of i grew this food with my hands and sweat and it is sustaining my family. sure our children would be born easily and pain free....but a mother would never know the deepest form of love that is created when one sacrifices so much for the life of another. a mother and child bond would be SO different if the process of bearing and raising children had not been this 'punishment'.
these are just examples of course, but my point is...that for something that is depicted as a terrible dooming of all mankind to suffer forever......it is also the gift of some of the most beautiful things that make us human.
and THAT, whether i agree with the Bible and religion and everything of that, and not saying that i believe there truly was adam and eve and all that.......i agree with that concept.
the punishment of all existence....the banishment of man from the garden of eden, from PARADISE....was also the best thing that could have ever happened to our species.

and that is a belief i have carried with me for a long loooong time, but only just recently realized how the adam and eve story can be interpreted to match it.

there is no good and evil. that is just my opinion, but they are one and the same. in this story, the human race was given the punshment and blessing of a lifetime in ONE act. neither good nor evil. it just IS. the tree of the knowledge of good an evil? think about it....its one tree.

i see it that every blessing is a curse, every curse is a blessing. every god is a devil every devil is a god. every loss is a gain every gain is a loss.
every pair of opposites is nourished by the same set of roots, just like the tree of good and evil.
the story of the phoenix has always touched me deeply, ive mentioned that on here many times. because its message is that in every death there is a birth and vice versa. in every tradgedy there is something beautiful and vice versa.

dont really know what the entire point of all of this is, but just......idk man life just happens. things dont happen because they ARE good or ARE bad. they just are. and that infamous blessing/curse of free will....lets US be the ones to choose how to percieve them. and we are never wrong in how we do.
 
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just a bit of humor. Nothing more.


HERE

watch the other ones...The original is Robert Tilton, a man from Tulsa who was raking in millions of dollars and dumping prayer cards he got in the dumpster. This guy and all these guys are just crooks lol. But these videos are funny. Do a search for "farting preacher". The original "farting preacher is HERE
 
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Kelly, you are so much wiser than your years:)!! I too have had similar thoughts about Adam and Eve. I read a small excerpt from an original Hebrew translation of Genesis once. The names were Ish and Tar. Sounds more realistic to me, I can picture early man hitting himself in the chest and calling himself "Ish", almost like a grunt!! Can you imagine this? At some point in human evolution (which by the way, I do not think Genesis is anti-evolution) man became self-aware. That's what the Genesis story means. He saw birth and death as beginning and ends. This is the nakedness. He made clothes because he was cold!!! He couldn't live like animals any longer. He felt empathy and love. The loss of his pure animal mentality is his exit from Eden.
 
I have always found the study of religions and philosophies and our history and how we have came to be fascinating. How could you not? There are so many ideas as to our origins it is hard to discount any of them right away. An interesting book I read as an undergrad proposed that humans came up with the idea of god(s) through the accidental and the purposeful use of hallucinogenic plants. The name of the book is "Flesh of the Gods: The ritual use of hallucinogens".

What is really interesting is that the known age of the world, our planet, is about 4.5 billion years old this is pretty much proven by several different ways not just one, and in that time it is estimated that human beings, our current species, homo sapien, has been around for about 200,000 years (Omo). The point is that we only have around 8 to 10,000 years of history that we can count on. There are so many civilizations that had to exist and did exist prior the ones we know of. That is fascinating in its own right and to think of what knowledge was gained and lost because of war or plague, or natural disaster is mind boggling. anyway just some thoughts. :)
 
Zalanicht said:
Ugh, I want to post but I can't go off topic. :(
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I don't think it would be that far off topic. No one here is going to judge what you have to say, no one has yet and there have been some rather interesting things said where even I said to myself, "now wait a minute," but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I saw your post last night and was a little sad seeing that you didn't want to take part in the discussion, my guess is for fear of debate or judgment or whatever. My boyfriend is religious and he doesn't like talking to me about this stuff either because he feels like I'm judging him, but I'm not, I'm actually interested.

I was on the phone with my grandpa for almost two hours last night talking about his beliefs and then my beliefs and he flat out told me that I was wrong and why. I didn't get upset, I listened. In the end, he actually got me interested in reading the Bible. If I'm still not a believer than fine it my choice but I don't want to wind up believing in God and Jesus "just in case" because that's not real. I'm curious as to what you had to say.


@ Winemaker, maybe this is the type of response you were looking for:
My grandparents are the traditional "bible thumpers" you all hear about. They are Protestant and I asked them last night what their answer was to the question. I can't remember word for word so I'll try to sum up what the said the best I can. They said that it all began at original sin with Adam and Even in the garden of Eden. Adam sinned and it ruined everything and they were banished. This is original sin so everyone is born with that original sin. It's our forefathers who used their free will with greed or other such bad things over time which brought forth bad things happening including illness and those illnesses are hereditary and passed down from our forefathers and so the 3rd and 4th generations of these sinners have to deal with the consequences of our forefathers. God did not inflict the illness upon people. And as for car accidents, it was the free will of another sinner who caused the accident. They said that it IS possible for the Lord to heal us of any sickness if we but ask Him and praise Him. But before we do that, we have to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as our personal savior and admit and ask forgiveness of all of our sins. After all that, in time, you may notice a change and may become well again. They also said that why you speak to God or Jesus about anything, you must speak it aloud for it to be heard (as in you can't say it in your head or under your breath cause that doesn't count).
 
CrabbyRelish said:
They also said that why you speak to God or Jesus about anything, you must speak it aloud for it to be heard (as in you can't say it in your head or under your breath cause that doesn't count).
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Personally I think whether you write, talk, think, sing or whatever God hears. There is a very good book (written by an american or canadian i think - forgive my ignorance) called Prayer: your own letter to God. It is very good in explaining about prayer and one chapter is about why some prayers seem to go unanswered. I really do reccomend a look :ysmile:
 
This has been a pretty great thread since, for the most part, people have simply stated what they believe without trying to disprove anyone else. I hope it can stay respectful.

Here are my two cents. I don't believe in believing in anything because I think we all just stick with whatever idea makes us most comfortable. For example, if our parents are one religion, then we are likely to just stick with that because it is what we grew up with. Or, if we are hurting or can not reconcile with the idea of a God that would let people suffer, it is easier to believe that there is no God at all.

Personally, I think that it is just as presumptuous to say that there for sure is a God that is such and such a way as it is to say that there for sure is not a God. I don't think that is something any person can really know.

I was a very religious child, even after I got sick. I think that having religion in my life helped me get through many things growing up that would have been harder to get through if i had thought that i was alone.

However, I did feel that when I prayed to God to take away my pain, or stop people from hurting me or abusing me, he was answering. His answer was "no". This made me feel as if I must be a bad person because i felt that God would help people who were "good".

The reasons why I lost my religion however go much deeper than simply finding that my prayers were left unanswered. I wont go into the whole saga of how I lost my faith but one of the main things that finally turned me off of religion for good was when I realized that people actually believed that other people, even good people, even children, would really go to Hell for simply not picking the right religion. That just does not sit well with me to this day.

What I believed when I was a child was that the bible was there to teach us lessons and help us to be good people. I believed that we were all to treat others as we would like to be treated, and try our best to be moral good people, whatever that means to us.

I still believe in these core values but now I believe it is up to each of us individually to decide what makes a good moral person and what does not. I think that as long as you expect the same from yourself as you expect from others you are probably on the right path. In other words, don't be a hypocrite. I could go on and on about this part of my "belief" system, but I will spare you.

It is also hard for me to believe that everything is meaningless and just happened without some kind of design. The world may not be perfect, but it is amazing that things evolved to work the way that they do. How could it be possible that the sun and the moon and the tides all work together to be able to sustain life on this planet without some sort of a design? How could it be possible that we are on a planet that amazingly provides just the right types of sustenance to support our complicated bodies? How is it that we can feel things for each other and possibly even find a handful of people to love out of billions of people who we will never really be compatible with at all? This does not mean that I believe in God, just that I am open to the possibility of anything when it comes to this topic.

So what it comes down to for me is this: although I do not believe in God or not believe in God, I believe in the possibility of a God.
 
Forgot to say about my own opinion.

My faith is always on and off. I have been pagan(kind of) and studied the Satanic Bible(Lavays version of Satanism is just atheism with a spiritual side).

At the moment I am just learning more about witchcraft.
 
This is a great, well thought out thread
Respect!

I just need to say, when I posted about the tragedies that have happened to me and my family, I never once thought 'why me?'
Dad's was a tragic accident, no-one pointed a finger and said 'right Tony, you're time's up mate!'
No-one's to blame for illness, no-one's to blame for anything, IMO
I believe in the Big Bang, Evolution, Charles Darwin, can you really believe there were once a woman and a man from nowhere, just suddenly there? Did God just conjure them up from nowhere? Was he magic, just like his Son?
I believe that there was once a man called Jesus, a leader, a great storyteller, I don't believe he was the Son of God. Where is there historical evidence of this man outside of the Bible?
There are some wonderful, lovely stories in the Old and New Testament, but did they really happen?
Did Noah build that Ark? Did Moses really part the Red Sea?
Our God is a Great Big God, this is what we sang as children. We listened to these stories wide eyed and innocent, instilled into us, as the 'norm', that there is only One God, and this is untrue in this multi cultural world of ours, and now days we can't instil this nonsense into little children because it's not true! The truth is -
There is Allah, Buddah, Waheguru, Yaway, whatever, and it is because of this vast diversity of God, that there is Hate, War, Racism, Evil, Terrorism, Pestilence and Famine.
All in the name of Religion.

Sorry, I am a cynic, a sceptic or just facetious! I just believe in Science, that's all! No offence to believers!
 
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I've always wondered this: why the inability to believe God created the world from 'nothing', because turning this on its head - where or what did the big bang come from? After all there was nothing...

I remember once hearing that explosions cause destruction, don't know about you but I think this is a pretty beautiful world we live in when you look at everthing from the flowers to the animals, could an explosion cause somthing as amazing?

I think that for a world where every creature has its place and uniqueness (is that a word? lol) the evidence is certainly there to believe in my eyes.

Jers Girl, if you can get a copy of that book i mentioned you'd maybe find it interesting about prayers that we feel God says 'no' to.
 
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Destruction helps bring life in most respects. Wasnt it the americans in the 70s that tried to stop all their forest fires then inexplicably the California Redwood (possibly.. i know it was a really tall tree) started to die out .. turns out it needed those forest fires to clear the area for new trees to grow.

I dont believe in religion as i wasnt brought up that way. Also im more interested in science and maths where there can be a logical process to follow.

I still have a positive attitude to life and others, things get thrown at you, but the way i see it, it could be worse. As long as i live my life full, making myself and others around me happy, then i can say my life was worth living
 
For me there is no point at this point in my life to be religious or believe in a superior being. I will just be as nice and mean to people and my views on life will stay the same. If I live to be 80 years old without believing in anything whats wrong with that? So there is no debate to either side cause it doesn't matter at all!
 
I've got another tough question for you guys.

"If Crohn's (and many other diseases) could be legally cured tomorrow via the use of embryonic stem cells, would you participate and if not, why"?
 
Yes. Most embryonic stem cell testing is done with the use of embryos that have been discarded from fertility clinics. I don't see a problem using them if they were already made and going to be tossed away already.

I personally don't see a problem using them anyhow, but I follow the class of thought that an embryo is not a baby and it isn't a human life until it can survive on its own outside the womb (reasonable medical intervention allowable)... again a personal opinion if you will.
 
I would also go down the path of embryonic stem cells. Every time I see Michael J Fox fighting to legalize the use of embryonic stem cells (for parkinson's) it breaks my heart. I don't see how anyone can look him in the eye and say no, it seems so callous.
 
winemaker said:
I've got another tough question for you guys.

"If Crohn's (and many other diseases) could be legally cured tomorrow via the use of embryonic stem cells, would you participate and if not, why"?
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Yes!! I don't have crohns, Parkinson's, cancer etc.etc.. How could I look at another who needs help and make the decision that they cannot have it?
 
My father has Parkinson's and so I not only would benefit, but he would. Parkinson's is pretty difficult to watch... it really breaks my heart.
 
yes why not (cant see it being a difficult question at all)
The rules stopping these sort of things are stupid. My mate works in embrionic research.. and she wasnt even allowed to make me a chicken-pig, i feel robbed :(
 
rygon said:
yes why not (cant see it being a difficult question at all)
:(
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I say it's a tough question because this is a thread about religion and the Catholic Church (and perhaps most religions) are against the use of embryonic stem cells. I am interested to see if the people who have faith in God would say yes to stem cell use or, would they side with "God"?

Haha, a chicken-pig... Ribs and fried chicken on the one beast, Nice!
 
winemaker said:
I say it's a tough question because this is a thread about religion and the Catholic Church (and perhaps most religions) are against the use of embryonic stem cells. I am interested to see if the people who have faith in God would say yes to stem cell use or, would they side with "God"?

Haha, a chicken-pig... Ribs and fried chicken on the one beast, Nice!
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I really don't think most rational Christians are against stem-cell research per se!! There are many who are against the production of embryos specifically for the purpose of stem cell usage. I believe most stem cell research in the states is carried out on unused "extra" embryos from fertility clinics. Like Katie says, they are going to end up in the trash. How could it be morally wrong to use them to potentially save a life?
 
I'm going to say no! I would talk about it but as a moderator I don't feel I should. I support stem cell research but not embryonic stem cell research. Pax
 
Dexky said:
How could it be morally wrong to use them to potentially save a life?
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I completely agree with you however, the church doesn't. I struggle with the concept that people pick and choose what aspects of a religion they follow, whilst ignoring other aspects.

The church is completely against condom use, just think of the lives that could be saved if the Pope embraced contraception in Africa instead of preaching that condom use increases the risk of HIV/AIDS.

I suppose it's the nonsensical policies of the church that I can't truly understand.
 
That picking and choosing is why Christianity has become so segmented to begin with.
 
I agree with Dexky. I believe in God and I don't think it is wrong to use the embryonic stem cells for research either. It would be a waste to throw them away when they could help so many people with terrible diseases.

I have to say, I really love this place! There are so many different views on this subject of religion and stem cell research and everyone's stating their opinions without being ridiculed. I love it! I have many different questions that I ask all of the time about life, and religion, and the afterlife or lack there of. I just have been finding this so interesting and have been forming more solid opinions about things I was fuzzy about before!
 
We don't preach about condom use because in the Catholic faith, premarital sex is frowned upon. If you wait until you're married, there isn't a need for them.

As far as stem cells go, I support stem cell research, BUT I do not support embryonic research. I believe that as soon as conception occurs that the fetus is a living being and destruction of that being is murder. I don't believe this simply because that is what the Church believes, I have seen videos of babies reaching out a hand during surgery while still in the womb grabbing a doctor's finger. I know my beliefs are not the popular ones, but I stand by them, 100% and I encourage everyone to do some research on the subject to either further your beliefs or possibly enlighten yourself on something you didn't know.
 
Crohns08 said:
We don't preach about condom use because in the Catholic faith, premarital sex is frowned upon. If you wait until you're married, there isn't a need for them.
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I understand that premarital sex is frowned upon, but for the Pope to say something so irresponsible like, condom use aggravates the AIDS epidemic is insulting to the millions of people who have died.

I think the church needs to catch up with modern society and grow up on issues such as safe sex and homosexuality.
 
winemaker said:
I've got another tough question for you guys.

"If Crohn's (and many other diseases) could be legally cured tomorrow via the use of embryonic stem cells, would you participate and if not, why"?
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Of course I would, but then again that isn't the only way to get stem cells but I bet that's already been brought up.
 
Dexky said:
I really don't think most rational Christians are against stem-cell research per se!!
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I'm not about to say that my grandparents aren't rational, just more along the lines of traditionalists. I haven't asked them yet what their views are cause the last question I asked took me almost 2 hours to get off the phone and I have limited minutes so I'll have to ask them this a little later. Just because you believe in the Bible, even if its word for word, doesn't mean that you aren't rational. Again I'm not religious but I don't think its fair to say that they aren't rational simply because of their beliefs that go against others.

Edit: Many people associate embryonic stem cell research with abortion and I'm not sure but couldn't you also get them through a miscarriage (but maybe that all has to do with you body being a temple and that sort of thing)? And like I mentioned, there are other ways to get stem cells. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article2908408.ece
 
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Jeff D. said:
I'm going to say no! I would talk about it but as a moderator I don't feel I should. I support stem cell research but not embryonic stem cell research. Pax
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If you look above at my last post, what about the possibility of a miscarriage?
 
CrabbyRelish said:
Just because you believe in the Bible, even if its word for word, doesn't mean that you aren't rational. Again I'm not religious but I don't think its fair to say that they aren't rational simply because of their beliefs that go against others.
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J, believe me, as someone who was raised in a church that would have most Catholics, Presb, Episcopal, Methodists and even Baptists shaking their heads, I do not mean to suggest that Christians aren't rational. I did say most rational Christians because I, like you, am uncomfortable suggesting others with different feelings about it are irrational.

I want to clarify something from earlier in this discussion. J, you suggested that my thoughts would classify me as a Deist. I'm much more in line with Kelly. I don't feel I can nail down anything and say that's what I "believe". I suppose that would classify me more as agnostic but I really don't like labels of any sort when it comes to religion. Technically, I believe there are as many religious beliefs as there are people who care to think about it.

This is a subject that I have always loved to discuss though:):)!! I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said, paraphrasing here, "if there be a God, surely he would rather honest questions to blind faith".
 
winemaker said:
I say it's a tough question because this is a thread about religion and the Catholic Church (and perhaps most religions) are against the use of embryonic stem cells. I am interested to see if the people who have faith in God would say yes to stem cell use or, would they side with "God"?
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My answer to that would be, we have the gift (from where ever you like to think it comes from) of intelligence. That intelligence has evolved to allow us to come up with these treatments, and in a way become self sufficient, ie solve our own problems.

Some other points i'd like to air is the fact that the bible was written 2,000 years ago and society obviously has moved on (ie women menstruating are quite happily allowed into Church), so while I would hesitate to follow it word for word the broad principles are enough for me.

I read a very good book, The Genesis Enigma, written by Dr Andrew Parker, a scientist who explores the similarities between what Genesis tells us and what Science has discovered.

Also, please do remember that while there are evangelical sections of all religions, some atheists can be very hardline too :) Fair is fair ;)
 
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Star, what was Dr Parker's gist? I personally don't find the Genesis story to be anti-evolution. It's allegorical and I feel certain was passed from generation to generation by some great story telling tradition long before it was ever written down.
 
Well he was a scientist who was pretty shocked to find all the similarities between the Book of Genesis and the scientific evidence. Like the part that mentions animals in the sea, when at that point in history people were concerned with land and nothing but the land, so certainly not the sea, and it's mentioned in the exact right stage.
 
winemaker said:
I understand that premarital sex is frowned upon, but for the Pope to say something so irresponsible like, condom use aggravates the AIDS epidemic is insulting to the millions of people who have died.

I think the church needs to catch up with modern society and grow up on issues such as safe sex and homosexuality.
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He says that because it is our belief that to abstain from premarital sex you won't have those problems because you'll be following God's outline for a clean, healthy life. Outside of the Church's perspective and speaking from my own thoughts which is probably the unpopular opinion here, I do believe condom use does aggravate and spread the AIDS epidemic. It causes people to become carefree and think that just because they have a condom or birth control that they can do whatever they want when they want. Certainly if AIDS is spread by bodily fluids you can see a correlation here? It's one thing if you have one partner and stay faithful but that just isn't how it is. It promotes promiscuity especially in my own age group.

That being said, I don't think the Church should have to change or adapt. It is our customs and beliefs that we follow. No one is asking you to follow it, it is a personal choice to choose what you believe and to be selfish to try and make a 2,000 year old religion change just because it isn't what you believe isn't fair. Especially when you're singling out one religion. I don't hear people trying to change Jewish customs or Muslim customs. They don't believe in homosexuality either as far as I'm aware. That's just my personal opinion. :)
 
Hi Toni

I say this with respect sister, but when you've got teenage children of your own, you'll soon change your mind about condoms, no matter what your beliefs are, no matter what your religion is, no matter what discipline you instil in them, if they're gonna experiment, they will, believe me! I would advocate the use of condoms to all kids, unwanted pregnancies are rife all over the world! And no kid should be without one! It is something that is drilled into all schools over here.
The Pope needs to get into the real world and get out of his Popemobile and see for himself all the unwanted babies in orphanages, just cos he said don't wear a condom!
Peace xxx
 
I think the issue about condoms arose, in particular, from the connection with Africa. Toni is strong in her convictions as are many other young people her age, they will follow the teachings of the church and that is a fine thing.

As to Africa, there are many of the Catholic faith there that do not believe in this one aspect of the church's teachings and do distribute condoms amongst the population. I think the difficulty for them arises from the fact that the highest incidence of AID's is in fact in married women. Husbands are unfaithful and in doing so come home and infect their wives. Many of the clergy in Africa see the use of condoms not as preventing life but rather as preserving it.

Dusty. :)
 
Astra101 said:
Hi Toni

I say this with respect sister, but when you've got teenage children of your own, you'll soon change your mind about condoms, no matter what your beliefs are, no matter what your religion is, no matter what discipline you instil in them, if they're gonna experiment, they will, believe me! I would advocate the use of condoms to all kids, unwanted pregnancies are rife all over the world! And no kid should be without one! It is something that is drilled into all schools over here.
The Pope needs to get into the real world and get out of his Popemobile and see for himself all the unwanted babies in orphanages, just cos he said don't wear a condom!
Peace xxx
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I understand where you are coming from and with some teenagers I think you have to go with the route of safe is better than going without. However, I think that birth control and condom use has become too easily available to teenagers. I know what teenagers think because I have been friends with that girl or that guy that thinks just because they have a birth control pill or some other type of contraceptive that they are safe. This isn't true. Condoms break and even when they don't there are tiny holes and they don't protect you from STDs. You can also get pregnant while on the pill and I'm sure other contraceptives as well. I think that if these were harder to get that not as many teens would be having sex because they would be too afraid of getting pregnant. Who really wants to be a teen mother or father? I respect your opinion, and I humbly offer my opinion as a different view to consider as well from an eighteen year old's perspective who has experience with these types of situations. Not hands on myself, but with my close friends.
 
Crohns08 said:
I understand where you are coming from and with some teenagers I think you have to go with the route of safe is better than going without. However, I think that birth control and condom use has become too easily available to teenagers. I know what teenagers think because I have been friends with that girl or that guy that thinks just because they have a birth control pill or some other type of contraceptive that they are safe. This isn't true. Condoms break and even when they don't there are tiny holes and they don't protect you from STDs. You can also get pregnant while on the pill and I'm sure other contraceptives as well. I think that if these were harder to get that not as many teens would be having sex because they would be too afraid of getting pregnant. Who really wants to be a teen mother or father? I respect your opinion, and I humbly offer my opinion as a different view to consider as well from an eighteen year old's perspective who has experience with these types of situations. Not hands on myself, but with my close friends.
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I think it's fantastic how easily available condoms and BC are to get at a younger age. Cause I think 99.9% is way better then 0%. If you're having sex at a younger age and you have a brain you'd definitely know you're partner well enough to trust them. I don't know where I'm getting at with this but whatever lol.
 
I really don't understand waiting to have sex or live with someone until you're married. I really don't.

What happens when you finally get married and you move in together and realize the person you have been dating for years has this weird tick in the middle of the night? What if they snore? What if they put the paper on backwards? This all sounds trivial but you REALLY have to know how to live with someone before you try it.

Similarly, what if the sex sucks? What if you can't stand to be intimate with that person and you find out after you tie the knot?

I'm sorry I just couldn't ever chance that many unknowns. Which is why I did have sex with my husband before we got married, and I did live with him for about 3.5 years prior to it.

You gotta try it before you buy it.
 
I suppose I find it difficult to live my life by a book written in the earliest days of man's ignorance. The world was flat and diseases/natural disasters were punishment from God W know this is not true, so to believe in talking snakes, virgin births and dead men walking is nonsensical (my opinion).

What happened to the Gods of Ancient Greece? Were they made up?
Are the Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Mormons, Buddhists, Scientologists etc all wrong?
What about indigenous populations around the world who all worship different Gods or no Gods.

So many questions.

Great discussion.
 
katiesue1506 said:
I really don't understand waiting to have sex or live with someone until you're married. I really don't.

What happens when you finally get married and you move in together and realize the person you have been dating for years has this weird tick in the middle of the night? What if they snore? What if they put the paper on backwards? This all sounds trivial but you REALLY have to know how to live with someone before you try it.

Similarly, what if the sex sucks? What if you can't stand to be intimate with that person and you find out after you tie the knot?

I'm sorry I just couldn't ever chance that many unknowns. Which is why I did have sex with my husband before we got married, and I did live with him for about 3.5 years prior to it.

You gotta try it before you buy it.
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My opinion is that if you really love someone so much that you want to spend the rest of your life with them that such small things may get annoying at times but you learn to love them because that is part of the core of that person you love so much. Call me naive, or whatever you want, but that is how I feel either way. Part of what being in love with someone that makes it so exciting is the mystery. Knowing too much or everything so soon could make things boring. Again these are my own personal thoughts. :)
 
winemaker said:
I suppose I find it difficult to live my life by a book written in the earliest days of man's ignorance. The world was flat and diseases/natural disasters were punishment from God W know this is not true, so to believe in talking snakes, virgin births and dead men walking is nonsensical (my opinion).

What happened to the Gods of Ancient Greece? Were they made up?
Are the Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Mormons, Buddhists, Scientologists etc all wrong?
What about indigenous populations around the world who all worship different Gods or no Gods.

So many questions.

Great discussion.
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That's the great thing about faith. If you truly believe in your heart with all of your being that what you believe is right then it doesn't matter what anyone else believes because you just know. It doesn't mean you can't respect what others believe because I do have a great respect for those that know what they believe and follow it.
 
Zalanicht said:
I think it's fantastic how easily available condoms and BC are to get at a younger age. Cause I think 99.9% is way better then 0%. If you're having sex at a younger age and you have a brain you'd definitely know you're partner well enough to trust them. I don't know where I'm getting at with this but whatever lol.
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But the fact of the matter is, the majority of people my age just don't know their partners well enough. All of the parties and one night stands are evidence of that. :/
 
Condoms break and even when they don't there are tiny holes and they don't protect you from STD's.
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I respect both your opinion and conviction Toni but there is a need for fact here. Condoms can break if not used correctly or they are of inferior quality however they do not have tiny holes in them and they are very effective against the transmission of any infection that is spread through semen or vaginal fluids.

Dusty.
 
DustyKat said:
I respect both your opinion and conviction Toni but there is a need for fact here. Condoms can break if not used correctly or they are of inferior quality however they do not have tiny holes in them and they are very effective against the transmission of any infection that is spread through semen or vaginal fluids.

Dusty.
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Absolutely correct... latex condoms are impermeable to electrons, which are much smaller than a virus.

Before they're packaged, every condom is fitted on an underwater, metal rod and zapped with a weak electrical charge. If the electrical charge passes through a hole or weak spot in the condom, it is thrown away. Batches of condoms are randomly selected and filled with a sort of viral soup to test for leaks.

If one condom fails the leakage test, the whole lot is discarded. Better quality condoms are generally packaged in foil, giving them a longer shelf life.

Condom failure is almost exclusively due to human error, such as using oil-based lubricants, using old, expired condoms, leaving them in the sun or a hot place (such as your pocket), or tearing them with your fingernails and teeth as you struggle to get them out of the package.

The "tiny holes" theory is a deliberate misinformation campaign being waged by religious groups.
 
winemaker said:
I suppose I find it difficult to live my life by a book written in the earliest days of man's ignorance. The world was flat and diseases/natural disasters were punishment from God W know this is not true, so to believe in talking snakes, virgin births and dead men walking is nonsensical (my opinion).

What happened to the Gods of Ancient Greece? Were they made up?
Are the Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Mormons, Buddhists, Scientologists etc all wrong?
What about indigenous populations around the world who all worship different Gods or no Gods.

So many questions.

Great discussion.
Click to expand...

This is precisely why I say much of the bible stories are allegorical. When discussed and translated, they contain lessons and advice. I have a book called The Bible as History that attempts through archeological study to prove/disprove many of the bible stories. Like Dr. Parker's study, it was written by someone who believed the stories would be easily discredited but found otherwise. Did you read Joan's link?
 
Hi Toni

I really respect your opinions for such a young girl, very rare nowadays!
But you have to know that you're wrong about condoms not protecting against STIs!
Here in the UK we advocate the use of condoms to teenagers precisely for that reason, as well as unwanted pregnancies. My daughter is at UNI, she's 19, I know what it's gonna be like! Parties and sex! There's no doubt about it, it's all part of growing up! And one of the first things I bought her was a pack of condoms! She didn't bat an eyelid! This is because they have been taught Sex Educ in school (a Roman Catholic one too!)
My son is 16, and I know he's experimenting too, so I've bought him some too! This is being responsible for your actions, if you're gonna have sex, be responsible! I would be devastated if my son got a girl pregnant, or if my daughter got pregnant, after all the lessons I have taught them about safe sex.
And I have to agree with Katie, I lived with my husband for 10 years before I married him, and only then, would I agree. It's not about love! It's a business partnership, a mortgage, kids, love only plays a small part, commitment is the key, and trust.
I say this with respect, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but you've got a lot to learn, take this from an old bird who's been around the block a few times!
Peace xxx
 
I'm sorry but I think that says more about the way society is now that contraception is handed out willy nilly. People just think they have a 'fall back' to keep them safe, no thought of responsibility of what if things go 'wrong'-would they like a child? I think its abdicating the responsibility that such an act is basically all about. And to me thats a sad indictement on the youth of today. To me to tackle the issue of STI's and unwanted pregnancies is not a case of handing out contraception, its about changing the promiscous mindset that seems to be engrained in the youth of today.

I'm not comfortable either with the statement "It's not about love! It's a business partnership, a mortgage, kids, love only plays a small part, commitment is the key, and trust."

To me, it is about love, IF you truly love the person, you share finances because you LOVE each other, you jointly get a mortgage because you LOVE each other and want to live together, you LOVE each other so much you want to have children and you then LOVE the children. Commitment and trust are part of love i believe, not independant.
 
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I'm sorry, I think I meant, it's not just about love
Of course we do these things cos we love the other person, but it takes more than love to keep the relationship going, and it's hard work. Even when you fall out of love, there are other commitments, kids, mortgage etc.

And I do agree with you about the promiscuity, it's a hard one too, and it's up to the parents of these kids too, to teach them that promiscuity isn't safe or right. I have taught my kids well, I've taught them that's it's not ok to have sex without protection and that it's not ok to go to the clinic for a morning after pill! That's not how it works!
Kids need to be taught morals, and that it's not ok to be out shagging with anyone!
I don't think the youth of today are any different from the youth of 40 odd years ago when I was a kid, there is more awareness that's all, there were no TAZ (Teenage Advice Zone) when I was a kid, for morning after pills, no walk in centres etc, if you got pregnant, you got bollocked and had the baby. The youth of today have a lot of help and advice, some just abuse it that's all. And that could be down to socio economic factors, which is a whole different ball game to religion!
 
Liverpool FC said:
its about changing the promiscous mindset that seems to be engrained in the youth of today.
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Well until that happens (most likely never) shouldn't the youth of today be given the necessary tools to engage in safe sex if they want to (at the end of the day it's their choice). Talking about sex before marriage like there is something wrong with it baffles me. We're primates with primal urges... That will never change and neither will teenagers.

We've all seen what can happen when people are deprived of sex (priests and child rape)
 
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[QUOTE

We've all seen what can happen when people are deprived of sex (priests and child rape).

[/QUOTE]

oooooooh controversial, lol

I agree with the statement of letting our kids think that sex is dirty, naughty and shouldn't be done before marriage, a lot of hang ups can/may occur with this sort of mentality. Can scar a kid for life!
It is human behaviour, and we can't supress it, and after all, that's why we're here, to procreate!
But, just wait til ya 30 kids! Have a happy teenage time! Keep safe!
 
Astra101 said:
[QUOTE

We've all seen what can happen when people are deprived of sex (priests and child rape).
Click to expand...

oooooooh controversial, lol

I agree with the statement of letting our kids think that sex is dirty, naughty and shouldn't be done before marriage, a lot of hang ups can/may occur with this sort of mentality. Can scar a kid for life!
It is human behaviour, and we can't supress it, and after all, that's why we're here, to procreate!
But, just wait til ya 30 kids! Have a happy teenage time! Keep safe![/QUOTE]

Lol! Ok, just from a youth's perspective, if a teenager wants to do it, THEY ARE GOING TO DO IT. If a parent makes this huge issue about NEVER having sex before marriage and what not, you are just urging your child more to be rebellious, it makes it much more fun to "Go against" what your parents told you to do. I know it's a bit off topic, but just needed to give my 2cents worth!
 
@ winemaker: Well if we're so primal, why do we clothe oursleves, why do we not live out doors or in caves etc? We have a mind and intelligence which surpasses anything in the animal world and with that comes responsibility.

I fully understand that each individual has the choice and it will only be themselves who can decide, but they need to remember the potential end point to this whole thing: a child. I think a child is to be something brought into the world via two loving stable parents, so if the whole idea behind it is 'cheapened' or made less special then in my opinion that is a sad thing.

The deprevation arguement doesn't really stand up (though your example is truly horrific, everyone would agree, it is totally despicable), we can all take examples, such as the 'typical' newspaper article highlighting someone on state benefits whos fathered a dozen children by a dozen mothers and doesn't contribute either in terms of fathering skill or money. Plus I am not saying be celebit (spelling lol), simply wait till you've met the one and make the commitment through marriage. I know others will not agree.

@ Joan, I again would say its not dirty or naughty etc, but a loving thing that happens when two people devote themselves to each other for life. It is VERY SPECIAL if anything, hence the reason some of us believe it is not desirable to 'cheapen' it. You also said about "thats why we're here, to procreate", that is exactly my point. It is an act for creating life, therefore should it not occur when you want to create life-not just as an activity if you will?

@ Dras, I know what you mean about the typical teenager being rebellious, but IMHO if the child has been brought up correctly they will understand that this is NOT to prevent them "having fun", but is for their own good, and to encourage them to respect their own body as well as others. I'm also a youth so i'm not coming at this from an 'old fogeys' viewpoint.

Anyway i suppose we are getting a bit off topic... lol
 
Joan, with all due respect getting close to getting into seminary to become a priest and that is misinformation about people being deprived of sex. The problem was that getting into the seminary back then was far too easy and a few predators got through. Remember that the percentage of priests who have been charged with sexual crimes is extremely low at between 1 and 4 percent. Teachers on the other hand have a higher percentage of about 15 percent. Your statements about the priesthood are very hurtful to men who are going into the priesthood because of the call that we feel.

I'm was hoping not to go into talk about all of this but I feel it's inevitable. The Bible is not some sort of myth. If you look at the myths from pagans before Abraham and after you will see the clear differences. Yes, some parts of the Bible contain some myth elements such as Adam and Eve, the flood, and such but you can clearly see that what is being written is more historical than mythical. There are some stories that are just that but that's the beauty of the Bible because it's written in so many genres.

Toni, keep it up my friend. You are awesome!

And about love. Love is a term tossed around way too much these days. Love is not a feeling but an action so if you love someone you will be able to tolerate the little things because you are actively loving that person not just feeling love. Feeling love is like trying to build a house on a foundation of sand whereas active love is like building a house on the best concrete available. I believe this is where the hangups between what Toni is saying about love and some of the others.

Well that does it for my little rant.

Pax
 
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Astra101 said:
We've all seen what can happen when people are deprived of sex (priests and child rape).
Click to expand...

oooooooh controversial, lol

I agree with the statement of letting our kids think that sex is dirty, naughty and shouldn't be done before marriage, a lot of hang ups can/may occur with this sort of mentality. Can scar a kid for life!
It is human behaviour, and we can't supress it, and after all, that's why we're here, to procreate!
But, just wait til ya 30 kids! Have a happy teenage time! Keep safe!
Click to expand...

It's actually just the opposite. We don't teach our kids that sex is dirty or wrong. We teach our kids that sex is a sacred thing that should be shared between a man and a woman who loves each other so much that they want to spend the rest of their lives together (marriage) which makes it such a beautiful thing. It means so much more when there are true genuine feelings behind it. Again, this is just my opinion and how I was taught by my parents who wanted me to give such a sacred action it's due respect.

However, I do find the quote about priests offensive. I've seen more school teachers charged with molestation charges than I have seen priests and the numbers that Jeff provided don't shock me. Also if we're going to talk about rape let's also talk about all of the grown men who rape women. I wonder how many of them have religious morals...

But getting back on track, I think the problem with today's society is sex is tossed around so freely and it's been made "cool" by celebraties to have intercourse at such a young age and if you don't then you're unpopular. All teens really want is to find their place in the world and if they think having sex or trying drugs is going to get them there then they are much more likely to experiment. If condoms are 100% full proof, then why is it STD's are still prevalent?

As far as the Bible goes, I think most of you are misinformed. I understand some of you have read books about the Bible, but how do you know you are getting the facts if you have never read the Bible yourself? I understand most of you are firm in your convictions, however I ask that you do your research on the Bible, even if it's from an analytical standpoint to do your research so you won't be misinformed.

Well said, Jeff! Agree 100%!
 
winemaker said:
I've got another tough question for you guys.

"If Crohn's (and many other diseases) could be legally cured tomorrow via the use of embryonic stem cells, would you participate and if not, why"?
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Absolutely I would participate.

Something of interest for those who would care to know. The first Christians, and for that matter, the ancient Jewish people believed that the SOUL of a person was not in a body until it took its first breath. If a baby was borne dead and did not breath it was not as tragic a loss to the parents as most of us would consider it today as that was just a shell of flesh and blood and the SOUL, the most important "thing" that 'god' was interested in was not present. It was believed that an Angel would be present at the time of birth and blow the SOUL into the mouth of the child.

Because I do not believe in the Christian mythology anymore than I believe in any other mythology,I would definitely partake in a treatment to cure this nasty disease. I see nothing amoral about it.
 
I don't understand why people feel like sex is so sacred. It is not only there for procreation... if it were, it wouldn't feel so good.

We are going to have to stop talking about rape here because rape has NOTHING to do with sex or sexual desire. Rape is a crime of control. Rape is done by those people who feel a need to control others. This is why teachers, priests, religious leaders, and coaches are most often found raping. This is also why men commit the crime against women most often. These people either feel a need to be in control, or see themselves above others (women or children) and they take advantage of that.

If condoms are 100% full proof, then why is it STD's are still prevalent?
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Because there are many people having sex without without condoms still. Think of all of the lower income people who can't afford condoms or aren't educated on their efficacy. Think of all the urban settings in which those people have no access to sexual education programs. You can't assume that everybody has grown up the way you have with the same opportunities and access to a good education.


There are so many passages in the bible that make me cringe. What about in Exodus, Leviticus and Timothy where the bible talks of slavery.
Exodus 21:7-11 said:
And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

8If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

9And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.

10If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

11And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money."
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I just don't understand how people can live their lives by the bible and be fully Christians, and then say "Oh, well that part doesn't count anymore" "And that was only for those days" There are too many things I just don't agree with. And that's why I've chosen to live my life as a good person without a book and religion telling me how to be.
 

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