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I haven't found any of your comments offensive winemaker. This whole thread has, to me, contained robust discussion. Your comment about walking on water was clearly mean't in jest so I too do not understand the need for it to be removed but as I said in a discussion such as this offense can easily be caused and maybe it's something we just have to wear.............(((shrug))), easy for me to say though as I don't have the interest in it that you do. Good luck!

Dusty. :)
 
Crohns08 said:
Yes, but there's a difference between saying something on purpose that you know will offend people and saying something that you sincerely didn't think would offend anyone. What might be funny to you might not be funny to someone else. What might offend you, might not offend me. It's not about walking on eggshells, it's about being considerate of other's beliefs.
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Do you think my comment should be removed, even after apologising several times? What about forgiveness? Just because something is funny to me and not someone else perfectly outlines the nature of a joke. It wasn't a venomous, hate-filled, intolerant statement that needs censorship.

You made the statement about the tiny holes on condoms in which AIDS can pass through. I found that extraordinarily offensive (and completely untrue) but, you are entitled to voice that statement. Do you think you should get an email from a moderator asking you to remove your your comment?
 
sorry i wasn't around when all the recent wobbles were happening in this thread - thanks Jeff for temporarily closing the thread so that we could all have a breather, and a staff decision could be made...

i've decided to reopen this thread for many reasons, the main one being that i have been extremely impressed with the way everyone has conducted themselves within this thread from the start. it is rare these days to find a discussion on religion where people haven't argued, cursed, and stormed off...

i also think it is imperative for Crohn's Forum to show that all religions and levels of belief are equally welcome here.

personally, i feel that any statement made can always be said in more than one way, and similarly can be taken in more than one way.

what is meant in light-hearted humour by a poster, can be taken as a serious and hurtful insult by the reader... in a discussion as sensitive as this one, that is something we need to remember, and consider before we click 'post reply'.

having said that, i think sometimes in life we do need to lighten up, even about serious things like this....... think about how many of those silly texts and emails you've received over the years, poking fun at the latest sad global event such as 9/11, Bin Laden, Swine Flu, Michael Jackson - if i'd have told every person who sent me these things what i really felt about the messages (so called jokes), i would have no friends left right now.

we have to learn to look past certain things, particularly when they're obviously meant in humour.

in Winemaker's case, regarding the Jesus on water comment - to me it was obviously meant in humour, and he has apologised if it offended anyone. that's good enough for me.



i hope this thread can continue now in the positive and constructive way it has been up until recently, and that we can all continue to learn and share - respectfully. :)
 
Have been away and just read this whole thread!!!! Wow what a fab discussion, if you all lived near me I would invite Wine, Dras and Toni of course for a dinner party, you all have great minds:hug: xxxxxxxx
 
When a moderator gets all bent out of shape and threatens censure for what was a fairly innocuous Jesus walking on melted polar icecap water gag, I'm not sure I can contribute to this thread in any meaningful way.

Winemaker should never have been made to apologize.
 
I completely get where you all are coming from, I just didn't want this thread to be closed because of wine's joke, because I know how sensitive some people are about their religion. Luckily it wasn't, thx mods!

(for the record I had a huge smile on my face reading it) :)

And thx Dallies, I would totally have come!:thumright:
 
Dallies said:
Have been away and just read this whole thread!!!! Wow what a fab discussion, if you all lived near me I would invite Wine, Dras and Toni of course for a dinner party, you all have great minds:hug: xxxxxxxx
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Hey D, are Obama and the Pope still invited?? We could get this all sorted for sure!!
 
GoJohnnyGo said:
When a moderator gets all bent out of shape and threatens censure for what was a fairly innocuous Jesus walking on melted polar icecap water gag, I'm not sure I can contribute to this thread in any meaningful way.

Winemaker should never have been made to apologize.
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I felt that I should apologise because I am became aware that the comment could have been viewed as insensitive. What I was not happy with was being told to remove the comment or it would be done for me. I was genuinely shocked to have been told that I insulted an entire religion and that I attacked a member of this forum. I may be cheeky at times but, I'm not a trouble maker and I'll defend what I believe in if I'm made to.

No one has been attacked throughout this forum and it has received an overwhelmingly positive response from the good people of this site.

I apologised out of good faith (no pun intended). I don't expect an apology from anyone for their comments. I'm a grown up and who's not offended by any kind of joke, no matter how poor in taste it may be.
 
Dallies said:
Have been away and just read this whole thread!!!! Wow what a fab discussion, if you all lived near me I would invite Wine, Dras and Toni of course for a dinner party, you all have great minds:hug: xxxxxxxx
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Sounds great to me. Dras can bring fish, Toni bread, and I'll bring the wine :lol:
 
What do you guys thinks of the Burka ban in France? Do you see it as an act of colonial oppression towards muslims or simply a matter of security and empowerment of women?
 
Hmm... Good one...

I guess you can argue it both ways, i'm actually on the fence with this one.
I've never been a fan of the whole female burka thing, in my opinion it was brought forward by a group of possessive, insecure men who were obsessive about themselves being the only men to see their wives.

It's sad actually, I mean, any woman just feels so much better when she looks good. It boosts self confidence and what not, and that whole thing has been taken away from them.
 
Well said Dras and I agree with those points, but I would suggest that the burka and the ban are more cultural aspects, not so much religious ones, though obviously there's significant overlap.

The whole oppression issue is hard to tackle, and I'm not sure there's a great deal that can be done without upsetting people significantly. Perhaps waiting for the migrant women to assimilate more to Western cultures and then take the issue on themselves if they choose to do so is the better solution, but it'll probably still take a generation or two.

Our generations have a lot of issues like this to deal with. We're forced to get on with everyone with the easy travel and communications, but there are massive voids in competing cultural beliefs and acceptances that will simply take too long to naturally adapt to each other. I would suggest most of these may be caused by religion, but have grown in to more cultural issues, which can be just as hard to adapt to, though will hopefully change over time.

I'd add that I really don't think the US is helping issues like this at all, but that's getting a little too off-topic and we might start causing real offence :eek:utahere:
 
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An overwhelming majority of French citizens see it as modern liberal reform in the interests of women's rights. They've gone to great lengths to make this law non-discriminatory. In state schools, Christians cannot wear large crosses, Jews cannot wear yarmulkes and Sikhs cannot wear turbans.

I see the hijab/burka as a symbol of repression so, if the equality of women is a French civic value, I find it pretty hard to disagree with a law that bans a such a tool of repression.
 
It may not discriminate, but it's still not a solution nor a significant step to to solving the larger problem, even if it may be a sign of what may be to come to other countries.

I love the way TV series portray the future and make you think about how things may turn out. The new Doctor Who series gives you a message as you land 5 billion years in the future "Guests are reminded that platform one forbids the use of weapons, teleportation and religion." [Episode 2, Season 1] and Caprica [the prequel series to the popular Battlestar Galactica] is a society where monotheism appears to be a prosecutable offence, and polytheism is assumed among its' citizens.

I'd agree with the authors behind these TV series that some major changes need to happen with our different cultures (and as a result their associated religions) for us to coexist without the physical separation that our ancestors were used to. Hopefully this can happen without losing too much of the values behind our cultures, but in the past I feel there have been too many conflicts and [historically] unresolvable differences to expect everyone to coexist as close as they have become with modern technology.
 
Stefan, welcome to team science! a.k.a team nerd! lol!!! I'm sure you will feel very much at home with us!
:)
 
team nerd?! I resemble that remark!

But yes, it's great to see people form all around the world finding so much in common, even if there are multiple friendly 'teams' at play :)
 
stefan said:
Perhaps waiting for the migrant women to assimilate more to Western cultures and then take the issue on themselves if they choose to do so is the better solution, but it'll probably still take a generation or two.
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Agreed. I'm against forcing change upon other cultures. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean that you have the right to force others to believe the same as you do. Banning their attire that they wear all the time will only segregate the ones who aren't ready for change and to me, that's wrong.

I'm also against banning religious symbols like wearing crosses etc. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech need to be kept intact. But you can't force that onto other countries. If they want change, then they can try to make change in their own country with time or they can try to flee to a country that won't oppress them.
 
winemaker said:
What do you guys thinks of the Burka ban in France? Do you see it as an act of colonial oppression towards muslims or simply a matter of security and empowerment of women?
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I don't see it as an act of oppression toward muslims nor do I see it as empowerment of women as such but rather a desire for the French to see that their cultural values are upheld, those being dignity and a desire to live together.

Dusty, :)
 
Well we can all have a general idea of how we'd like it or expect it to go down. :p

Edit: As for the article, I can't help the fact that I'm a selfish person.
 
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DustyKat said:
I don't see it as an act of oppression toward muslims nor do I see it as empowerment of women as such but rather a desire for the French to see that their cultural values are upheld, those being dignity and a desire to live together.

Dusty, :)
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I agree with Dusty. And i could not have said it better.
 
Well the idea isn't that far fetched. Maybe I'll be able to read the article later but I have a hard time reading anything that starts out with talking about whack lobs like Ann Coulter. Why begin the article in such a biased manner? Why not just give the facts and move on. :p
 
brenda1 said:
I notice that no one says anything about the devil. Does anyone one believe that there is a devil and he could be the one causing the bad things in life that happen?
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I believe there is a dark side just as there is a light side. Night/day, sun/moon, etc. I do believe in God. Believe it or not, Crohn's brought that to me. I do not attend church regularly because I do not like the way most formal religions operate. I do get together with some people that research the bible and we discuss topic that interest us.

When I was in college I took world religion courses just because it was interesting. I think that is what you are doing here, right?

Michele
 
Winemaker - Excellent article, and an interesting site, thanks for passing it on.

This must be the 1st time anyone has ever mentioned Fyodor Dostoevsky and Ann Coulter in the same sentence... :ywow:

As to whether or not one needs a god in order to know right from wrong, this red herring is a common justification for religion. Whenever the tired notion of religion being required for morality appears, I always quote Abraham Lincoln, who said "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master". You don't need someone to TELL YOU killing your neighbor is wrong. You know it simply because you would not want it done to YOU.

And that's without even getting into all the justification of slavery, murder, rape and other violence against women, etc., which appears in religious texts.

Another very good online resource is the web site of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. Their weekly "Freethought Radio" program, an archive of which can be found at http://www.ffrf.org/news/radio/shows/, is especially interesting. Past shows have included interviews with writers such as Gregory S. Paul (cited in the Miller-McCune article), as well as Christopher Hitchens, Gore Vidal, Richard Dawkins, and many others. The site also has links to full text journal articles and a video of a presentation by author/scholar Phil Zuckerman, also quoted in the Miller-McCune piece.
 
Sorry I did skip to the end here to answer the original post.

I believe we are created in God's image. That God the creator gave us the ability to continue to create and he gave us free will, for without that love is very empty isn't it? Who knows why or how we got Crohn's, is it our diet, chemicals or other environmental things, I don't know. But if you read Ziggies thread you will know humans can create the solution.

I like this guy's video on prayer that explains this idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_b5yusitvg
 
David in Seattle said:
Winemaker - Excellent article, and an interesting site, thanks for passing it on.

This must be the 1st time anyone has ever mentioned Fyodor Dostoevsky and Ann Coulter in the same sentence... :ywow:

As to whether or not one needs a god in order to know right from wrong, this red herring is a common justification for religion. Whenever the tired notion of religion being required for morality appears, I always quote Abraham Lincoln, who said "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master". You don't need someone to TELL YOU killing your neighbor is wrong. You know it simply because you would not want it done to YOU.

And that's without even getting into all the justification of slavery, murder, rape and other violence against women, etc., which appears in religious texts.

Another very good online resource is the web site of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. Their weekly "Freethought Radio" program, an archive of which can be found at http://www.ffrf.org/news/radio/shows/, is especially interesting. Past shows have included interviews with writers such as Gregory S. Paul (cited in the Miller-McCune article), as well as Christopher Hitchens, Gore Vidal, Richard Dawkins, and many others. The site also has links to full text journal articles and a video of a presentation by author/scholar Phil Zuckerman, also quoted in the Miller-McCune piece.
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Thanks for the link... Hitchens and Dawkins are heros of mine. (I hope Hitchen's beats oesophageal cancer, but he doesn't like his chances).
 
winemaker said:
Thanks for the link... Hitchens and Dawkins are heros of mine. (I hope Hitchen's beats oesophageal cancer, but he doesn't like his chances).
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Hitchens is an interesting character, alright. Starting out as a Socialist and writing for progressive sources like "The Nation", he later became a supporter of George Bush and the Iraq war (in his inimitable, outspoken style, and all the while claiming to have not become a conservative) he turned off much of his fan-base on the left, including me, for a time. His book, "God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" (a great title which he must have lead to some interesting discussion at his publishers) is a fascinating, fact-based collection of examples of and thoughts on the true cost of religious belief.

Yes, too bad about the cancer. No doubt caused by Hitchens years of chain smoking.
 
Gotta start somewhere I suppose. Sure abstinence is the best way to prevent most STI/STDs but it isn't practical and some people don't even have a choice in the matter.
Response to italics:
Reminds me of a case a while back where a man raped a woman and the courts questioned whether or not it was actually rape because she asked the rapist if he would use a condom. I'd prefer a condom in that case as well.
 
This thread, in its entirety, was a great read. Thank you to everyone who has contributed for your thoughts and insights on a wide variety of topics.

Here's my quick and dirty rundown:

I am Jewish. I believe in G-d, attend temple a few times a year, and participate in my religious holidays with family and friends. I do believe that the old testament (the only one Jews believe in) is full of stories that are meant to teach some sort of lesson, moral or ethic. I do not believe that a 600 year old man built an ark and saved two of each creature roaming the earth while rain flooded the earth for eons. I believe in G-d but I feel he created and is now hands off. I've never asked "why me?" and I don't plan to start now. My life isn't always easy, no one's is, but I love my life. We don't believe in an afterlife, at least not exactly, but Judaism in general tends to deal more with life than death. When we're dead, we can't do mitzvahs (good deeds) anymore, so what's the point? :)

I believe in evolution, global warming, dinosaurs, embroynic stem cell research, the fact the Pope actually just okay'd condoms for male prostitutes, that science understands a lot of things but not everything, that cats shouldn't be cloned and then injected with green dye so that they glow at night no matter how much I love my cat and wish I could have him forever, that rape isn't a sexual crime - it's about power and violence, that sexuality is a lot more complicated than heterosexual and homosexual and that the time for binary gender is gone, that being gay cannot be "cured" anymore than being heterosexual can, that eastern North Carolina BBQ is superior to all other types of BBQ, collards should be made with pig fat and served with white vinegar, run-on sentences are hilarious and at the end of the day I think the absence of faith is just as valid as faith.

Which is to say ... none of it really matters. It simply is, has always been and will always be. Until it isn't anymore, in which case it will be about zombies and possibly roaches.

-Kathryn
 
OMG Kathryn!!!! What a rediculously brilliant post!!
I think i've got another brain crush!!

lol!!
 
Oh Kathryn!! You had me til you got to NC bbq!!! Monroe county Ky is home to the best bbq on earth. Haha, but yes on collard greens!! If I'm gonna eat that shit, it better taste like bacon!!

Ditto Dras!! I'm not Jewish but I think you (Kathryn) and I agree for the most part!
 
Nicely said Kathryn.

Looks like I need to try some NC BBQ! A mate of mine reckons Texas is the greatest BBQ state. I used to eat ribs like a madman before I got Crohn's, it's one of the the things I really miss.
 
Agreeing is fun, disagreeing is fun, too, Mark! I will somehow endeavor to still like you despite your unrepentant love of Monroe Co BBQ despite its inferiority to eastern NC BBQ. And thank you for the kind words.

And thank you to winemaker as well, for the thread in general and the compliment specifically!

-Kathryn
 
"Tell a wise person, or else keep silent,
because the mass man will mock it right away.
I praise what is truly alive,
what longs to be burned to death.

In the calm water of the love-nights,
where you were begotten, where you have begotten,
a strange feeling comes over you,
when you see the silent candle burning.

Now you are no longer caught in the obsession with darkness,
and a desire for higher love-making sweeps you upward.

Distance does not make you falter.
Now, arriving in magic, flying,
and finally, insane for the light,
you are the butterfly and you are gone.
And so long as you haven't experienced this: to die and so to grow,
you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth."
— Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


The above poem is quoted at the beginning of the book, "The Holy Longing: The Search for A Christian Spirituality" Chapter one comapres Mother Theresa, Janis Joplin and Princess Diana. I really like many aspects of the book and it's something anyone who believes in spirituality will get something out of.
 
Wow, I have just read this entire thread and it was so interesting, religious talks are ones I really enjoy.

I personally am an athiest, but like someone said very early on, i respect everyone's beliefs etc as long as they don't try and preach them to me!!!

I'm one of those people who likes proof, therefore religion really isn't for me.

I would also like to add how nice it is that everyone can have a mature conversation about it! good stuff :)
 
My last post on this thread was, for the most part, a very fun, light hearted post. I explained my belief in G-d as well as my love for eastern NC BBQ (which is still, in case you were curious, the best BBQ on the planet). But I felt the need to reply to tflock’s post when I saw it.

When it comes to my Judaism and belief in G-d, I don’t believe G-d’s hand is in what we do day in and day out. He created and we live, and the two don’t really come together. I do not believe G-d gave you Crohn’s to test you, or to punish you. I believe you and I got the short end of the stick when it came to a combination of genetics and life. We got screwed and it sucks and it isn’t fair. But I don’t think it’s G-d fault. It’s just life. And life happens.

As to characteristics of people you know, people are people. Their religion or lackthereof often inspires some of their behavior but if a bad Christian person is a bad person chances are he’d be a bad person whether he believed in Jesus or not. Some people just suck, their religion often gives them a scapegoat reason for sucking but the G-d I believe in doesn’t believe in being an butthead for my religion. If I’m an butthead, it’s because I’m an buttead not because G-d told me to be.

I’m not offended by anything you wrote. I totally get why you feel the way you do and there is nothing wrong with that. A person’s choice in faith is simply that … a choice. And it’s valid and good no matter what you choose as long as it works for you. But we’re all believers. I believe in G-d. You believe there isn’t one. :)

-Kathryn
 
Hi everyone,

I was not going to post on this topic, I have found that many people do not accept me because of my spiritual side. I am a Druid, thats a pagan similar to Wicca. I practice witchcraft, and celebrate the turning of the wheel. I have been pagan since before I had crohn's going on 20 years now.

I also believe in re-incarnation. For me I feel I must be paying a Karmic debt to have been given this illness. There has been good things that have come from it. Is it hard? YES we all know that. Has it made me a stronger person? Yes I think it has. Has it taught me compassion? Yes it has. I am sure there are more things that on a cosmic level crohn's has taught me.

I personally let others do what they will when it comes to religion, As long as they are not hurting anyone.
 
Came across a little something and I thought it was cool. This is not to be offensive in any ways fyi :)

Jesus? forget Jesus

Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics.

You are all stardust.

You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded. Because the elements, the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars. And the only way they could get into your body is if the stars were kind enough to explode.

So forget Jesus. The stars died so you could be here today.
 
Zalanicht,

I believe in Jesus and God but your post made me remember something. Somewhat of a revelation I had while teaching basic electricity.

You see current is the flow of electrons. Electrons are part of an atom, and they are not unique atom to atom. A electron that is part of a piece of gold is no different than an electron that is part of human flesh and of course everything which is matter is made of atoms.

So even now as I type this, wherever you are in this world, the electrons in my brain and in my body are touching the electrons in the air I breathe in an unending electron chain that goes all the way around the world and even through it. We are all linked this way, connected to each other and everything one atom next to the other.

This is something very spiritual in my way of thining. Because I believe God is within us and between us and we are all linked together and to God.
 
I am an atheist, and therefore religion does not have a bearing on an issue for me except sometimes interpersonal relations with religious people, I accept them, sometimes they can't accept me, especially if they're fundamentalists.
 
crohnicaly stinky,

Interesting but they way I think of it is all of us and the earth is very very very small compared to all of the vastness of the universe which is mostly empty.
So yes on a planetary scale we are all connected but what about the other 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the universe.
 
I do not believe in any sort of God as Im more science based at heart. I have to say this is one of the more intelligently written and thought out threads on this entire forum. I believe there is a process of evolution but how in the world we got to this point I cannot explain. I am respectful of others religions and look at nobody differently because of your beliefs.
One thing I do believe in strongly is that beliefs, hope, and sometimes inexplainable happenings can lead to extraordinary things. Ive seen incurable diseases cured, stainless steel stained, waterproof jackets leak, and David Letterman actual make one funny joke and in the end your faith and beliefs are what they are and if they mean something to you thats all that matters isnt it?
 
I was sort of raised into a Buddhist/Shinto but later on converted to Christianity..I wouldnt really call Buddhism and Shinto a religion..it's more like philosophical type stuff.
 
Id say that societies developed their various religions to help people cope with this truly epic adventure of life. If people got to pray to a mono-god or worship an Idol to help them then that is Great. It helps.

Myself I believe we are in the here and now and you need to make the best of it. I don't worship anything or believe in a god because I would be lying to myself and knowing I was doing so just to make myself feel better. I suppose I might be an Atheist if you need to pigeonhole me. I can't say that Terri's present religion is superior to her previous one or any other here. I suppose that is my point. They are social adaptations that most people need for guidance and an extended tribal or clan type support mechanism.

If it helps someone to seek positive feelings than it is a good thing. Even if it is just something made up by other people.


And I hope I dont embarrass you by using your example Terri. I think it is suitable to change a form of worship to meet changing social situations. That is what they are there for :)
 
I believe in respect for the universe and nature. What you give out is what you get back. However self interest and money have become more wide spread and appealing in recent years.

Unfortunately, the human race as a whole has put a lot of crap out into the universe; just look at what blows out the back of a truck! What concerns me most is the chemicals we put in our food. Mother nature spends thousands of years changing and evolving yet we think we can do this in a lab and get it right; then we ingest it. Sometimes shit happens (no pun intended:)), but it seems to me that there are more and more people being diagnosed with more and more scary health issues. I can't help but wonder if nature is biting us on the bum (again no pun intended lol)... I may be a bit hypocrite considering I take drugs to control my crohns, but the damage is done and this is the best I can come up with to control it.

As for poor Sophie and others that have experienced similar horrible experiences, I think, again, that it comes down to respect in many instances. Respect for other people by not drink driving and potentially endangering their lives; respect for other people by taking time and care and being aware of everything around you. Sometimes accidents do happen but if we cared for the universe as much as we do ourselves - imagine what this world would be!

This may be simplistic but its how I justify this weird and wonderful thing called life!

Good luck in your search for finding a meaning that is right for you xx
 
priest of a trad, blah blah...don't really circle much anymore. i armchair it more these days, which is to say I do nothing, but think more, and the more I think, the more I am inclined to put all religion and spirituality aside for the time being.
 
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We said this prayer in Church this morning. I think it's very good and relates to how my Christianity and my Crohns relate. In this is the description of unconditional love and self sacrifice. In the pain and anguish and disappointment of this disease we all still have a life and a spirit that has so much to offer the world and so much fulfilment is within our reach.

WESLEY’S COVENANT SERVICE


INVITATION


Commit yourselves to Christ as his servants.

Give yourselves to him, that you may belong to him.

Christ has many services to be done.

Some are more easy and honorable,

others are more difficult and disgraceful.

Some are suitable to our inclinations and interests,

others are contrary to both.

In some we may please Christ and please ourselves.

But then there are other works where we cannot please Christ

except by denying ourselves.

It is necessary, therefore,

that we consider what it means to be a servant of Christ.


Let us, therefore, go to Christ, and pray:


Let me be your servant, under your command.

I will no longer be my own.

I will give up myself to your will in all things.


Be satisfied that Christ shall give you your place and work.


Lord, make me what you will.

I put myself fully into your hands:

put me to doing, put me to suffering,

let me be employed for you, or laid aside for you,

let me be full, let me be empty,

let me have all things, let me have nothing.

I freely and with a willing heart

give it all to your pleasure and disposal.
 
Chronicaly, that's lovely. I had not heard or read that prayer before. As you say, very meaningful and I agree that it can certainly apply to people with Crohn's. Thanks for sharing.
 
Kelly, I'm glad you enjoyed it. We have a new pastor and while she got off to a slow start, she is really doing a good job lately. Also this is a traditional Wesleyan covenant prayer that originates all the way back to the founding of the Methodist church and John Wesley.
 
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Neat. I recently started attending a new church that is Wesleyan affiliated (Church of the Nazarene), so the info you've provided could come in handy. :) I'm a lifelong Baptist girl, although the Christian college I work at is nondenominational.
 
Super good thread! What do I believe?...I am a humble disciple of Jesus Christ. I do believe that he was God in the body of a man sent to teach us how to live and treat each other. What could be more perfect and beautiful than loving God with all your heart soul and mind and loving your neighbor as yourself. It sounds so simple but sadly we Christians have been screwing it up almost since the very start of the church.

"If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the bible, I believe all of India would be Christian today." -Gandhi

"If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning." -C.S. Lewis
 
religion is very important to me i remember when i was going through a really tough time with my crohn's i thought i couldn't take it anymore i prayed to the universe or whomever is out there that if i got better and i was put in remission i would devote my spiritual practice to them and i was in remission a year later i had a dream about several angels and ever since then ive had no flares and i devote my spirituality to those angels or who ever they are im not christian but i guess you could say im a mix of pagan and christian i was raised as a christian but ever since that ive always thought paganism makes sense to me
 
Wow, this is a really interesting thread and full of fantastic and inspiring content.

I was raised Catholic and went to catholic schools. So in my younger days, from my early years, up until about 15-16 years of age, I believed in Jesus, etc. It was around the age of 17 that I began to question things like, life, religion, the universe, and during that time my opinions changed and my perception was altered.

I believe in God, but I do not subscribe to any religon or any religous groups, I believe true spirituallity comes from within. I believe that God is an intelligent force that permeates the entire universe, rather than a person or a being.

I understand why many people with Crohn's disease, or any disease or ailment for that matter might not believe in God, hell, when I was in a lot of pain or when I was in hospital when I was extremely ill, my faith was tested to the max and it made me question why such traumatic things happen to good people.

My grandma had dementia for 3 years and she has just recently passed away, and I totally understand how and why people curse and question the nature of God when seeming bad things happen for no apparent reason. I've done my fair share of questioning and cursing God, but it still remains incomprehensible, that's all I can say.

I believe science, religion and philosophy should complement each other, rather than be at odds with each another.
 
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Nica said:
Hi everyone,

I was not going to post on this topic, I have found that many people do not accept me because of my spiritual side. I am a Druid, thats a pagan similar to Wicca. I practice witchcraft, and celebrate the turning of the wheel. I have been pagan since before I had crohn's going on 20 years now.

I also believe in re-incarnation. For me I feel I must be paying a Karmic debt to have been given this illness. There has been good things that have come from it. Is it hard? YES we all know that. Has it made me a stronger person? Yes I think it has. Has it taught me compassion? Yes it has. I am sure there are more things that on a cosmic level crohn's has taught me.

I personally let others do what they will when it comes to religion, As long as they are not hurting anyone.
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Hi Nica,

I too believe in re-incarnation and karma. Way too many people have claimed to have lived before for the claims to be simply overlooked or ruled as delusional. My favourite, was a guy who asked if he believed in life after death, he replied, yes, and life before life. Which I thought was quite a cool answer. :smile:

My circumstances are similar to yours in some respects. Crohns, I believe has also made me a better person and has increased my awareness. It has made me think about my actions more, and opened up a whole new side to me, that if not for me having Crohns, may not have came out.

I have never really considered whether my Crohn's is the result of previous bad karma, but it makes sense that it could be.

I don't believe it to be about God being vengeful or wrathful, but more about being fair. More about, what goes around comes around, etc.
 
There seem to be a fair few people who state that being scientifically rational, the only choice for them is atheism.

This seems pretty odd to me though. Atheism is just another belief system. Certain well known scientists are even turning it into a religion.

There is no empirical evidence that proves or disproves the existence of god. To out-rightly state that this lack of evidence means that the idea is incorrect is completely against what science is about. Without the ability to have an open mind, we'd still believe that our flat earth was the centre of the universe.

Me? I'm agnostic :)

** edit

Reading the wiki article on agnosticism, I'm technically referred to as a temporal agnostic. How awesome does that sound?
 
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I've been always a firm believer of being non religious but now I'm slowly thinking ,who cares? If I can go through life not thinking about it have having nothing to do with anything then why not?
So why take a side when you could just not even think about believing in anything because in life you don't need that part to get through.
 
I don't think Crohn's has made me a "better person", in fact I'm not sure what that means.. What it has done is, cause severe pain, made me miss many special occasions/events and caused a great deal of sadness to my family and friends.

At the end of the day, if I didn't have Crohn's my life would be better and therefore, I believe I'd be a happier, "better person".
 
Zalanicht said:
I've been always a firm believer of being non religious but now I'm slowly thinking ,who cares? If I can go through life not thinking about it have having nothing to do with anything then why not?
So why take a side when you could just not even think about believing in anything because in life you don't need that part to get through.
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In answer to your question, you can't escape being spiritual. We are all spiritual and like the poem I quoted a few posts ago, we are drawn to the light like moths, trying to satisfy all those needs we have, for love, sex, belonging, security, vanity, etc. What we do with these forces that drive us is our spirituality, a good guide and not the only one, on how we maintain a healthy control and or trajectory of these forces is religion.

As Ron Rolheiser explains our spirituality is either driving us to do good things or it causing us to tear ourselves apart. We are never at rest, we are all eternally restless, no one is ever at peace. Religion helps us with this constant turmoil.
 
I believe in God with every fiber of my being. I believe that he is loving and that bad things can happen to good people, and good things can happen to bad people. I believe that nothing bad comes from God, but that he may allow some bad things to happen to us, then it's up to us to learn how to accept and handle the situations.

I also believe that everyone has to come to their own understanding of faith, a higher power, along with their own self actualization. I would never force my views or beliefs on anyone. I will mention that when I have suffered greatly with my disease, he has been there for me. He may not have rendered me free of pain or disease; however, I believe that he does love me (and everyone else), and that he can and will help us through our dark, painful, and trying times. I believe that my faith in Him has also caused me to be more understanding of others who suffer or are in pain. I haven't always felt this way as I have suffered some abuse as a child, lost two babies, and had other trying difficulties in life. I've had a change of heart.
 
crohnicaly stinky said:
In answer to your question, you can't escape being spiritual. We are all spiritual and like the poem I quoted a few posts ago, we are drawn to the light like moths, trying to satisfy all those needs we have, for love, sex, belonging, security, vanity, etc. What we do with these forces that drive us is our spirituality, a good guide and not the only one, on how we maintain a healthy control and or trajectory of these forces is religion.

As Ron Rolheiser explains our spirituality is either driving us to do good things or it causing us to tear ourselves apart. We are never at rest, we are all eternally restless, no one is ever at peace. Religion helps us with this constant turmoil.
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So I'm spiritual but I just don't know it yet?
 
CrabbyRelish said:
After reading everyone's posts thus far I'm reminded of a belief I grew up with (I was brought up Protestant and went to The Assembly of God church). I'm glad Adam and Eve was brought up because that's where it begins. In the Garden of Eden there was no crime, death, disease etc. but once Adam and Eve went against God's wishes they were banished into the world we live in today where death, rape and all sorts of bad things happen along with good. Then I'm glad that free will was brought up as well because its our free will that causes certain things to happen. God does not steer the car into a child and He does not inflict diseases onto others. One may ask, "Well where was God when I needed Him?" And that reminds me of the parable Footsteps that goes:

One Night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with the Lord. Across the sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene, he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand; one belonged to him and the other to the Lord.

When the last scene of his life flashed before him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in his life.

This really bothered him and he questioned the Lord about it. "Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you you'd walk with me all the way, but I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life, there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed you most you would leave me." The Lord replied, "My precious, precious child, I love you and would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you."

In this case God is painted as loving rather than vengeful who can hold a grudge against an entire species just because two of them screwed it up for everyone else. So why can't all be forgiven and let us back into Eden? Well, that's what Heaven is.


This is the belief I was brought up with but had forgotten. For me it doesn't change anything because as said, why hold a grudge on an entire species? I'm a good girl and wont touch your fruit if you say so. I hate it when roommates touch my stuff. Why do we all have to be born with someone elses' sin? Its not fair.
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you said things so well, but remember God never said life would be fair. We live in a fallen world. The only way back to Him is through accepting Jesus as our savior. Yes, He made Adam and Eve. He could of erased all after the Garden. But he made them in his image and gave them free will after their sin. So generations since have been paying the price for sin. Again, He loves each one of us and does not want any of us to die to sin. When you look at history of the world, we have gotten further and further away from his purpose. Its all in the Bible, Old and New Test. Bad, ugly, horrible, tragedy, hate, greed, are all part of this world, which God did not create. He has given us free will and the choices from our generations are playing out. Yes He can intervene, and He does when He chooses. We don't understand why and when He does, but we have to know their are other people affected by the outcome of tragedy which in many instances have brought people to God. This is where the word Faith comes in. But Faith doesn't happen until you truly believe and have given your life to Him. God is GOOD and will be with us through every trial if we ask, trust, and be patient. When you see just yourself(your footprints) it is because He is carrying YOU through a time you don't understand. :)
 
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personally i feel that spirituality and religion are two separate issues altogether, and that people choose to combine the two... therefore i also believe that it is possible to be spiritual and not religious - which is more or less where i put myself.
 
Zalanicht said:
So I'm spiritual but I just don't know it yet?
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You are spiritual, I'm not sure if you know it or not. lol Sorry I am not following you. I didn't say you don't know anything. I was pointing out you can't just ignore religion and not care if there is such a thing or not because you cannot ignore your spirituality and how you handle that is your religion.
 
atheism is not a belief system

Creepy Lurker said:
There seem to be a fair few people who state that being scientifically rational, the only choice for them is atheism.

This seems pretty odd to me though. Atheism is just another belief system. Certain well known scientists are even turning it into a religion.

There is no empirical evidence that proves or disproves the existence of god. To out-rightly state that this lack of evidence means that the idea is incorrect is completely against what science is about. Without the ability to have an open mind, we'd still believe that our flat earth was the centre of the universe.

Me? I'm agnostic :)

** edit

Reading the wiki article on agnosticism, I'm technically referred to as a temporal agnostic. How awesome does that sound?
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Atheism is absolutely not a belief system, it is the lack of a particular belief (the belief in a god)....it does not even have to be based on rationalism or empirical evidence.

Someone who has never been exposed to either the concept of science or faith would be an atheist....that does not mean they have a belief system....quite the opposite in fact.

Science is based on observable, testable evidence....and thus requires a certain lack of belief to be performed properly, (a good scientist has to base everything on evidence/data and leave his/her beliefs for his/her non professional life).
 
Andy108 said:
Atheism is absolutely not a belief system, it is the lack of a particular belief (the belief in a god)....it does not even have to be based on rationalism or empirical evidence.

Someone who has never been exposed to either the concept of science or faith would be an atheist....that does not mean they have a belief system....quite the opposite in fact.

Science is based on observable, testable evidence....and thus requires a certain lack of belief to be performed properly, (a good scientist has to base everything on evidence/data and leave his/her beliefs for his/her non professional life).
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Technically that would be Irreligion ;)
 
Creepy Lurker said:
Technically that would be Irreligion ;)
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Yeah good point, you're probably right....but in essence the word 'Atheist' technically means without god, or gods....although it has come to mean one who denies the existence of god.

Many atheists (as in the currently accepted meaning of the word), including me, don't accept the word as their 'label' because it is ridiculous to define oneself by what one doesn't believe in. For example: why aren't most adults called "tooth fairy deniers"?

I label myself as a (compassionate) Secular Humanist.

..and I agree with everyone who thinks that one doesn't need religion to feel a spirituality....I get deep spiritual satisfaction from Nature.

Cheers again.
 
crohnicaly stinky said:
You are spiritual, I'm not sure if you know it or not. lol Sorry I am not following you. I didn't say you don't know anything. I was pointing out you can't just ignore religion and not care if there is such a thing or not because you cannot ignore your spirituality and how you handle that is your religion.
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So my spirituality is everything in the universe that is meta-physical that i can't understand?
Cause if spirituality and religion are two different things I'm having troubles understanding what spirituality is or what it stands for?
 
As far as Crohn's making people a better person, its really just trials of life that would make someone a better person whether its a chronic illness, death in the family, birth of a child etc. etc. You're forced to cope, care, push your limits and educate yourself and others and you learn more about subjects you would have never been exposed to otherwise. So is being inflicted with an illness a good thing or a blessing? Not really but knowledge is what's important and can make one a better person which improves your own life and the lives of others.
 
Zalanicht said:
So my spirituality is everything in the universe that is meta-physical that i can't understand?
Cause if spirituality and religion are two different things I'm having troubles understanding what spirituality is or what it stands for?
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In a sense, spirituality and relgion are two different things. The themes may be seen as similar and maybe they are, but I would argue that they are in fact two opposites.

Religon.....is what a certain group wants you to believe. You have to adhere to their doctrine and rules.

Spirituality.....is what comes from within, whether you believe in God or not. It's your own beliefs, your own morals, ethical code, your humanity & compassion, etc. Your spirituality is whatever you want it to be....not what a religious or political group wants it to be.

That's my take on it anyhow.

I believe in God....but I'm not really a fan of any religious or political groups, per se.

So I can see how they get tarred with the same brush because God is in the equation, but I don't believe they are the same or even similar.
 
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winemaker said:
I don't think Crohn's has made me a "better person", in fact I'm not sure what that means.. What it has done is, cause severe pain, made me miss many special occasions/events and caused a great deal of sadness to my family and friends.

At the end of the day, if I didn't have Crohn's my life would be better and therefore, I believe I'd be a happier, "better person".
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Winemaker, I agree, of course it would be better if we all didn't have Crohn's to begin with, I don't think any different and that's not what I was suggesting.

Good things have happened to me, heightened awareness, more compassion for others, more thoughts for my actions, etc. It's unlikely that this would have have happened to me if it were not for my Crohn's.

Before I found out I had CD I was a bit bashful in my ways and only really cared about my immediate needs. But once I found out I had CD all of that changed and a journey began which resulted in me becoming more aware of myself and others around me.

So yes, Crohn's is inconvenient to say the least, painful & traumatic. But I do believe that as a result of me having CD it has morally made me a better person.

A good thing has resulted form something bad, there's nothing wrong with that.
 
Liam said:
Winemaker, I agree, of course it would be better if we all didn't have Crohn's to begin with, I don't think any different and that's not what I was suggesting.

Good things have happened to me, heightened awareness, more compassion for others, more thoughts for my actions, etc. It's unlikely that this would have have happened to me if it were not for my Crohn's.

Before I found out I had CD I was a bit bashful in my ways and only really cared about my immediate needs. But once I found out I had CD all of that changed and a journey began which resulted in me becoming more aware of myself and others around me.

So yes, Crohn's is inconvenient to say the least, painful & traumatic. But I do believe that as a result of me having CD it has morally made me a better person.

A good thing has resulted form something bad, there's nothing wrong with that.
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What if someone is already morally strong, compassionate, thoughtful and aware? Does a chronic illness make them a better person? Or is it only if you lack these characteristics to begin with?
 
You're asking me to answer a personal question, which is unique to the individual, only they know the answer to that and only they know how they feel.

I never said that having CD had to make everyone a better person, nor did I address you personally. I just said it had done to me.

It's made me a better person. Of course I wish I didn't have it, but I have made the best out of a bad situaton and some good has resulted, something that may not have happened if not for the Crohn's.

What's so wrong with that?
 
One challenge for those of us who are religious is that it is not nearly as easy to explain the depth and complexity of keeping a religious faith as it is to mock the idea of an invisible being. So with that in mind I offer the words of a priest on how the crucifixion is a model for how we handle disease and disasters. The parables of the bible have incredible relevancy to the human experience even thousands of years later, but it takes a very smart observation to really appreciate.

The Humiliation of Crucifixion
2010-03-28 RON ROLHEISER, OMI

When Jesus sweated blood in the Garden of Gethsemane and asked his Father to let the cup of suffering pass him by he wasn't, for the most part, cringing before the prospect of brute physical suffering. He was cringing before the prospect of a very particular kind of suffering that is generally more feared than physical pain. When he asked God if it was really necessary to die in this way he was referring to more than death through capital punishment.

Crucifixion was devised and designed by the Romans with more than one thing in mind. It was designed as capital punishment, to put a criminal to death, but it aimed to do a couple of other things as well.

It was designed to inflict optimal physical pain. Thus the procedure was dragged out over a good number of hours and the amount of pain inflicted at any given moment was carefully calculated so as not to cause unconsciousness and thus ease the pain of the one being crucified. Indeed they sometimes even gave wine mixed with morphine to the person being crucified, not to ease his suffering, but to keep him from passing out from pain so as to have to endure it longer.

But crucifixion was designed with still another even more callous intent. It was designed to humiliate the person. Among other things, the person was stripped naked before being hung on a cross so that his genitals would be publicly exposed. As well, at the moment of death his bowels would loosen. Crucifixion clearly had humiliation in mind.

We have tended to downplay this aspect, both in our preaching and in our art. We have, as Jurgens Moltmann put it, surrounded the cross with roses, with aesthetic and antiseptic wrapping towels. But that was not the case for Jesus. His nakedness was exposed, his body publicly humiliated. That, among other reasons, is why the crucifixion was such a devastating blow to his disciples and why many of them abandoned Jesus and scattered after the crucifixion. They simply couldn't connect this kind of humiliation with glory, divinity, and triumph.

Interestingly there is a striking parallel between what crucifixion did to the human body and what nature itself often does to the human body through old age, cancer, dementia, AIDS, and diseases such as Parkinson's, Lou Gehrig's, Huntington's, and other such sicknesses that humiliate the body before killing it. They expose publicly what is most vulnerable inside of our humanity. They shame the body.

Why? What is the connection between this type of pain and the glory of Easter Sunday? Why is it, as the gospels say, "necessary to first suffer in this manner so as to enter into glory?"

Because, paradoxically, a certain depth of soul can only be attained through a certain depth of humiliation. How and why is this so? It isn't easy to articulate rationally but we can understand this through experience:

Ask yourself this question with courage and honesty: What experiences in my life have made me deep? In virtually every case, I will venture to say, experiences that have deepened you will be incidences that you feel some shame in acknowledging, a powerlessness from which you were unable to protect yourself, an abuse from which you could not defend yourself, an inadequacy of body or mind that has left you vulnerable, an humiliating incident that once happened to you, or some mistake you made which publicly exposed your lack of strength in some area. All of us, like Jesus, have also been, in one way or another, hung up publicly and humiliated. And we have depth of soul to just that extent.

But depth of soul comes in very different modes. Humiliation makes us deep, but we can be deep in character, understanding, graciousness, and forgiveness or we can be deep in anger, bitterness, revenge-seeking, and murder. Jesus' crucifixion stretched his heart and made it huge in empathy, graciousness, and forgiveness. But it doesn't always work that way. Many of our worst mass-murderers have also experienced deep humiliation and it too has stretched their hearts, except in their case it has made them deep in bitterness, callousness, and murder.

Several summers ago, I was at a conference at the University of Notre Dame where the Holy Cross community had gathered to prepare itself for the Beatification of its founder. Reflecting upon the spirituality of their founder, one Holy Cross member offered this challenge to his community: If you live inside of any family for any length of the time, at some point that family will wound you and wound you deeply. But, and this is the point, how you handle that wound, with either bitterness or forgiveness, will color the rest of your life!

In the crucifixion, Jesus was humiliated, shamed, brutalized. That pain stretched his heart to a great depth. But that new space did not fill in with bitterness and anger. It filled in instead with a depth of empathy and forgiveness that we have yet to fully understand.
 
Liam said:
You're asking me to answer a personal question, which is unique to the individual, only they know the answer to that and only they know how they feel.

I never said that having CD had to make everyone a better person, nor did I address you personally. I just said it had done to me.

It's made me a better person. Of course I wish I didn't have it, but I have made the best out of a bad situaton and some good has resulted, something that may not have happened if not for the Crohn's.

What's so wrong with that?
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Nothing wrong with it at all. I think it's great.
 
I feel it has made me a better person too. I have been to the brink of death and back because of it and I still find the positive in my disease. There are things you miss because of it and there are things you gain, you just have to look harder for those things than the bad.

As for a God, I believe there is a Creator, some force that binds us all together. I dont think we would be so concerned about each others pain and reach out for one another if there wasnt. Haven't you ever just had that moment where something happens and you think to yourself, "Geez, there seems to be no good explanation for that" or "how the hell did that just happen?"

Search hard and you will see the divine right here on earth
 
I am enjoying this thread. I truly love to hear others' points of view concerning religion/philosophy. My belief in God has grown much stronger through the years. I love the poem, "Footprints." I also believe that for what ever reason, God believes I can handle this disease. Trusting in Him isn't always easy, but that is who I turn to when I can't find comfort or peace.
 
Whatever faith you are I believe how we feel emotionally greatly effects our physical beings. It helped me while I was hospitalized and at home to read certain bible scriptures pertaining to disease and loneliness though it may not be the total answer or cure.
 
I believe in god, and if you were to ask me what got me through my worst days - I would say my faith. I don't attend chuch on a regular basis, and you would not find me preaching too much about it, but for the most part, I would hope others could see this in my reflexion to help others, and be understanding. Father side was Jewish, mothers side is Christian. I too am Christian, but I recognize all faiths and have respect.
I just try to be the best person I can in gods eyes.
 
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I guess with this disease or with any disease you need a crutch to help you keep going and get through the day whither it be religion, painkillers, or some person who cares about you. If we didn't have that crutch to support us through our times of need we would all fall into some deep sort of depression I think. Deeper then what we we've been in in the past at some point.
 
In church this morning the pastor told this joke.

A car begins to stop conservatively at the yellow light, probably could have made it. The driver behind obviously in a hurry laid on the horn and starts hollering and waving his hands all around. On the back of the car is the "honk if you love Jesus" bumper sticker, the christian fish symbol, the "choose life" sticker, etc. In his frenzied rage he hears a knock on his driver side window, it's a police officer, he is handcuffed and taken to jail. Finally after an hour or two they come get him and release him from jail. He asks why he was arrested in the first place and the officer said from the bumper stickers and the way you were behaving we obviously thought the car was stolen. lol. Sadly people judge religion by the imperfect followers it is meant for, as if becoming religious magically makes one a better person.

The bible really is not a proof book, which is a little odd because the biggest thing about Jesus is believing in him, the obvious need is for some evidence. So why didn't God give us some obvious proof? Well that is the beauty of it also, faith in God is like true love, it does not need proof, it does not demand evidence and in fact anything that makes it conditional or forces it out makes it not really love at all. Unconditional love is loving when your doubted, shouted at, forgotten about, taken for granted, and loved without need for proof, God wants us to love him that way and more importantly to love each other that way. That is what the bible is about.

One of my favorite "proofs" though is the story of the prostitute. She is about to be stoned to death and Jesus saves her. Telling her accusers, those without sin cast the first stone. You have to think of the context of when this was written. Women were more or less property and a woman who was a prostitute, well she normally was stoned and you can be sure many a unfaithful man's mistress were probably falsely accused once the relationship was discovered, like the crazy people in the middle east who still to this day have "honor killings". So all the way back then Jesus is this progressive women's rights champion, but the moral is that he loving someone unconditionally, not because they have no faults but in spite of them.

It's hard to ever convince someone to be a Christian, especially when you have alot of people who scream about hell and damnation, but if people can start to see what it really means to be a Christian, to love each other as we love ourselves, well maybe they will be attracted to it.

If you read this far then click on this video, it's about the guy with the bullhorn on the corner shouting hell fire. The music is really cool, very edgy "freaky creatures like you" lol http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-825273137571541112#
 
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crohnicaly stinky said:
In church this morning the pastor told this joke.

A car begins to stop conservatively at the yellow light, probably could have made it. The driver behind obviously in a hurry laid on the horn and starts hollering and waving his hands all around. On the back of the car is the "honk if you love Jesus" bumper sticker, the christian fish symbol, the "choose life" sticker, etc. In his frenzied rage he hears a knock on his driver side window, it's a police officer, he is handcuffed and taken to jail. Finally after an hour or two they come get him and release him from jail. He asks why he was arrested in the first place and the officer said from the bumper stickers and the way you were behaving we obviously thought the car was stolen. lol. Sadly people judge religion by the imperfect followers it is meant for, as if becoming religious magically makes one a better person.

The bible really is not a proof book, which is a little odd because the biggest thing about Jesus is believing in him, the obvious need is for some evidence. So why didn't God give us some obvious proof? Well that is the beauty of it also, faith in God is like true love, it does not need proof, it does not demand evidence and in fact anything that makes it conditional or forces it out makes it not really love at all. Unconditional love is loving when your doubted, shouted at, forgotten about, taken for granted, and loved without need for proof, God wants us to love him that way and more importantly to love each other that way. That is what the bible is about.

One of my favorite "proofs" though is the story of the prostitute. She is about to be stoned to death and Jesus saves her. Telling her accusers, those without sin cast the first stone. You have to think of the context of when this was written. Women were more or less property and a woman who was a prostitute, well she normally was stoned and you can be sure many a unfaithful man's mistress were probably falsely accused once the relationship was discovered, like the crazy people in the middle east who still to this day have "honor killings". So all the way back then Jesus is this progressive women's rights champion, but the moral is that he loving someone unconditionally, not because they have no faults but in spite of them.

It's hard to ever convince someone to be a Christian, especially when you have alot of people who scream about hell and damnation, but if people can start to see what it really means to be a Christian, to love each other as we love ourselves, well maybe they will be attracted to it.

If you read this far then click on this video, it's about the guy with the bullhorn on the corner shouting hell fire. The music is really cool, very edgy "freaky creatures like you" lol http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-825273137571541112#
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That's exactly what I needed to hear and why I am never going to be religious.
Thanks! In a good way not being sarcastic.
 
Zalanicht said:
That's exactly what I needed to hear and why I am never going to be religious.
Thanks! In a good way not being sarcastic.
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That comment is why people who are lacking in faith sometimes annoy me. It's one thing if you're convinced in your beliefs and you're not going to change. It's your life. But I don't think it's necessary to act like you're better than someone else or science is the end all. There are many things that science can't explain. I understand a lot of people who have this disease or another chronic illness are bitter because of what happened to them, but I don't see the need to bring down those of us that still have faith. To be frank it's annoyed me that people have been allowed to attack Catholicism the way it has been and it's made me rather uncomfortable to the point where I had disappeared for a long time because this thread really and truly bothered me. You can say whatever you want, that I'm too sensitive or whatever, but that won't change how I feel about this thread.
 
I hate the way religious people feel the need to "convert" others.

Catholicism should be attacked! Just as any other religion or Spirituality has the right to be attacked. I can see no reason why Catholicism should be spared.
 
Crohns08 said:
That comment is why people who are lacking in faith sometimes annoy me. It's one thing if you're convinced in your beliefs and you're not going to change. It's your life. But I don't think it's necessary to act like you're better than someone else or science is the end all. There are many things that science can't explain. I understand a lot of people who have this disease or another chronic illness are bitter because of what happened to them, but I don't see the need to bring down those of us that still have faith. To be frank it's annoyed me that people have been allowed to attack Catholicism the way it has been and it's made me rather uncomfortable to the point where I had disappeared for a long time because this thread really and truly bothered me. You can say whatever you want, that I'm too sensitive or whatever, but that won't change how I feel about this thread.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry that I came off acting like I'm better than someone else with different beliefs. I can delete my post or edit it if you or anyone else took that the wrong way. :)
 
I understand a lot of people who have this disease or another chronic illness are bitter because of what happened to them, but I don't see the need to bring down those of us that still have faith.
Click to expand...

This is not how "a lot" of people feel who have Crohn's and don't believe. I didn't believe in God way before I had Crohn's Disease. It is not necessarily the experiences of myself that I base my opinions on. I gather experiences of everyone- including myself and I use what I see as logic. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else who believes, I'm simply stating that, in my opinion, and in my personal realm of logic and reason it does not seem likely that there is a man who can listen to every single person's prayers and have a hand in every single 6 billion earthlings lives at one point in time. To me, it seems more reasonable that people over time have had things they couldn't cope with, and to help them through the rough times, they created a "God". Much like in the past many tribes and people had "fertility gods" and "sun god". Figures to help them to understand why the world works the way it does. I think its easier for people to believe that there is a person in control who has a unique plan for them because it makes them seem less vulnerable and more confident in the way their life will go.

I choose not to believe that there is a plan for me. I choose to make my own plan, and despite the uncontrollable happenstances such as Crohn's, I can make my life the way I want it to be.

These are my own opinions, I am not attacking any subset of Christianity or Christianity in general. I do not think I'm superior to anyone else. This is just how I feel. And I am in no way, bitter. I have a quite positive outlook on life.
 

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