Colonoscopy cause of small bowel crohns?

[wild_one353]

Colonoscopy spreading crohn's into small bowel?

before my colonoscopy i had no symptoms of inflammation in my small bowel. it was only apparent from swelling in my lower abdomen, which was consistent with the colonoscopy.

Im wondering if anyone else has noticed/experianced this worsening of their condition after a colonoscopy.

after i came to from sedation, the doc said there would be alot of air escaping and that it was injected in the intestines for the procedure and that it is normal. after the colonoscopy i was diagnosed with crohn's, then doc suggested a small bowel x-ray to check for symptoms and i thought to myself, well wouldnt i feel the inflammation and swelling other then the original area?? but i did the test anyways docs orders you know. when i went to get the xray the doc said crohn's had a typical pattern of progression, i let his opinion sit in my head for a while.

perhaps two weeks after the small bowel x-ray, and about one month after the colonoscopy, i started have lots of swelling in different places, and got very worried this was the"typical pattern" i was told about.

but then i thought to myself, is it possible that this typical pattern is caused by any of these tests??

If the spincter muscle that seperates the large intestine from the small had opened up due to the air that was injected, then it was possible i guess. The reading i have done says that this ileal flap seems to be specifically designned to let the contents in the large intestine, while keeping bacteria out of the small bowel. so theoretically if the air opened the ileal flap, bacteria could have entered the small bowel.

some more digging revealed that crohns's was discovered to affect the small intestine in the 1960's, coincidentally the colonoscopy procedure was introduced at the same time, so i have some serious support that the invasiveness of the colonoscopy procedure could very well have spread hypothetical bacteria that may even be a culprit in causing/contributing to crohn's disease.

is it just pure coincidence that the same time the colonoscopy was invented, they also found crohn's could affect the small bowel?? is it possible that the procedure itself caused it to spread to the small bowel?

i guess im just wondering if anyone else has noticed small bowel symtoms after a colonoscopy??

 

[misscris]

hi wildbill. first of all, :welcome:. Second of all, I had a colonoscopy done a couple months ago, and still haven't noticed any small bowel symptoms or problems since. But remember that Crohn's can affect you from your mouth all the way to your anus, so it's quite possible and not unheard of for you to have symptoms and problems in your small bowel, completely unrelated to your colonscopy. I don't have any other information to share about it all, and I can't that it isn't possible, but does seem unlikely that the colonoscopy would cause the problem. Don't quote me on that, I'm not a doctor. But again, welcome to the forum.

 

[wild_one353]

hi wildbill. first of all, :welcome:. Second of all, I had a colonoscopy done a couple months ago, and still haven't noticed any small bowel symptoms or problems since. But remember that Crohn's can affect you from your mouth all the way to your anus, so it's quite possible and not unheard of for you to have symptoms and problems in your small bowel, completely unrelated to your colonscopy. I don't have any other information to share about it all, and I can't that it isn't possible, but does seem unlikely that the colonoscopy would cause the problem. Don't quote me on that, I'm not a doctor. But again, welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome and yes this is or was my first post.


the colonoscopy may only spread the crohn's if the ileal flap is opened by the air pressure directed into the intestine. ive even had the chance to speak to a anesthesiologist who has seen hundreds of colonoscopys performed, and they say that yes, the ileal flap opens on some people where others it does not, so i have a decent source to suggest that at least the flap does open, or can open. So the theory is at least valid.

but im just looking beyond any coincidence that it would spread right after this opportune time so closely connected to the colonoscopy. But yes it could have been a coincidence but it really also seems that there is a good possibility there could also be a really logical reason that it spread, another reason besides just sheer magic. I guess im a scientific person that believes there are reasons for things beyond magic.

 

[Guest]

hi and welcome, Bill

i'm thinking along the same lines as Shantel, in that Crohn's can't be 'spread' like an infection... but that's just my understanding of how Crohn's is - i may be wrong.

it's possible, i guess, that you had pretty undetectable Crohn's activity in the small bowel and that the action of the gas they insert and the poking around with the scope may have inflamed the active areas. just a thought...

 

[imisspopcorn]

Welcome to forum.

I was diagnosed with a CT scan because they were looking for appendicitis. I didn't have a colonoscopy until later. The doctor was unable to advance the scope into my ilieum on my first 2 colonoscopies. I have no Crohn's involvement in the colon. Most people don't have routine colonoscopies until mid-life, and Crohn's is primarily diagnosed in the 20's.

That is an interesting theory... I've always wondered why Crohn's is primarily in the terminal ilieum. I wonder if anyone else has an explanation

 

[wild_one353]

thanks everyone for responding to my thread.

im not really here to convince anyone of anything, just want to be heard thats all and ive read just about every study to have come out perhaps up the the minute. i do believe im familiar with all the theories, and in fact the existence of a pathogenic bacteria is a theory that is still aggressively being pursued by scientists. And ive found studies that may have even isolated the exact bacteria responsible for causing crohn's,although they arent exactly jumping to huge definitive conclusions of course, it is possible it is one of the primary causes, in addition to susceptability.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

1: Inflamm Bowel Dis. 2009 Jun;15(6):872-82. Links

Molecular diversity of Escherichia coli in the human gut: new ecological evidence supporting the role of adherent-invasive E. coli (AIEC) in Crohn's disease.

Departament de Biologia, Universitat de Girona, Girona, Spain. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Escherichia coli, particularly the adherent-invasive E. coli (AIEC) pathovar, has been increasingly implicated in the ethiopathogenesis of Crohn's disease (CD). We describe the richness, abundance, diversity, and pathogenic features of E. coli and AIEC strains that colonize the intestinal mucosa. METHODS: Approximately 100 E. coli colonies per biopsy from 20 CD patients (18 biopsies from colon and 23 from ileum) and 28 healthy controls (C) (25, colon; 27, ileum) were isolated. Repetitive extragenic palindrome-polymerase chain reaction (Rep-PCR) and pulsed field gel electrophoresis (PFGE) were used to analyze the clonality of isolates. For AIEC identification, adhesion and invasion assays were performed over Intestine-407 cells, and the capacity to survive and replicate intracellularly was determined over macrophages J774. The serotypes, phylotypes, and genotypes (19 virulence genes) of strains were also investigated. RESULTS: Mucosa-associated E. coli richness (E. coli subtypes/patient: C = 2.0 +/- 1.0; CD = 2.1 +/- 1.3) and diversity (Shannon Index: H'(C): 2.1 +/- 0.6; H'(CD): 2.5 +/- 0.8) were similar between CD and C, but higher E. coli counts were characteristic of CD patients (P = 0.010), particularly those with Crohn's ileitis (P = 0.001). Host-specific pulsotypes shared virulence features of ExPEC at similar frequencies between CD and C, except for iucD, which was more prevalent in E. coli from controls (C: 75%, CD: 40%, P = 0.027). In contrast, greater AIEC prevalence (% subjects with AIEC: CD = 51.9%; C = 16.7%; P = 0.003), abundance (% AIEC/E. coli: CD = 3.8 +/- 5.0%; C = 1.5 +/- 3.8%; P = 0.039), and richness (number of AIEC subtypes: CD = 0.8 +/- 1.4; C = 0.2 +/- 0.4; P = 0.015) of E. coli strains belonging to the AIEC pathovar was observed for CD patients. AIEC subtypes showed a high variability of seropathotypes and pulsotypes, although the B2 phylogroup was the most prevalent (AIEC: 64%, non-AIEC: 38%, P = 0.044). CONCLUSIONS: New data about ecological parameters of AIEC reinforces the implication of AIEC in CD.

PMID: 19235912 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[imisspopcorn]

I've always wondered if there is a viral componet to it? Especially CMV. I really wish we had more answers as to the cause. I think it has to do with the "why me" questions we all have.

 

[shazamataz]

My experience is that they did the colonoscopy and found the inflammation in the ileum. So, it was already there. I think sometimes they can get that far and sometimes not. I would doubt that one poof of bacteria going the 'wrong' way could start a disease - but i am no doctor!

 

[wild_one353]

Wouldn't it be great if they could seriously isolate an exact pathogen that sets all of us off and GET RID OF IT? I would love that!!

OK Wildbill - I'm going to play devils advocate here. WHAT IF....people who have Crohn's disease (inflammation of the gut due to an overactive immune response) simply have compromised mucosa that allows the e-coli to adhere more easily, and therefore settle in and set up shop whereas people with healthy guts don't "allow" such colonizations because their gut is healthy?

yes, thats what many are saying, but not all people who have been diagnosed with crohn's have the gene that makes them susceptible, one study suggests about 30% of people with crohn's may have the gene that makes them susceptible.

so optimistically, that may mean that 70% may , theoretically, be able to get rid of this pathogenic bacteria, with some relative ease. At least i hope thats what that means!!haha


for the record the "over active immune system" is just a theory, not a fact. Just one possible explanation for what is happening down there. And when you see many of the studys that examine the profile of the gut flora, you'll see that it seems much more then just some dysfunction of the immune system, the balance of entire populations of bacteria are out of whack, or i mean, not normal, not typical.

 

[D Bergy]

Welcome to the forum Wild Bill. I an fairly sure I managed to spread H-Pylori from my intestinal tract to my stomach by using antacids. I do not think your proposal is impossible by any means.

I think it is possible to spread the bacteria that causes the symptoms of Crohn's. It would be pretty hard to prove, on way or another, but pushing a instrument backwards up the intestinal tract, certainly brings bacteria with it. And the intestinal tract is not in a natural state before or after a colonoscopy, so who knows what contamination could take place.

I am certain that most cases of Crohn's have a genetic component to it, but it is the bacterial infection that causes the actual symptoms. Or, rather it is the bodies dysfunctional immune system that tries to kill the bacteria but cannot get rid of it. This never ending inflammatory process is what causes symptoms and damage.

E-Coli, H-Pylori, Mycobacterium Avium subspecies Paratuberculosis (MAP) and fungus likely all contribute to the disease, but all these pathogens do not have to be present to cause symptoms. There may be others also.

I kill the bacteria directly with Chlorine Dioxide. I kill it indirectly with Low Dose Naltrexone.

Simple treatment that has worked just fine for over two years now. No side effects after first two weeks of use. Long term side effects are protection from Cancer, other autoimmune diseases.

Dan

 

[Lisa5326]

This is all very interesting...

But doesn't the prep clean out everything? Including the bacteria? So I would think there would be little to nothing left to push backwards...

 

[wild_one353]

This is all very interesting...

But doesn't the prep clean out everything? Including the bacteria? So I would think there would be little to nothing left to push backwards...

im pretty sure there is plenty bacteria left, colon prep meds are not antibacterials/biotics. they just make watery poo.

one of my favorite studies on ibd have been where they gave patients multiple wide spectrum antibiotics to completly clear out all bacteria from the intestine, good or bad. then give massive probiotics for a month. 3 out of six participants obtained drug free remission from(off the top of my head) 11-36 months.

I have considered finding a doctor to do a similar treatment on me, but seeing as though there may still be good strains in my gut, that CANNOT ever be replaced, i deceied that antibiotics all together are pretty much poison.

 

[wild_one353]

Welcome to the forum Wild Bill. I an fairly sure I managed to spread H-Pylori from my intestinal tract to my stomach by using antacids. I do not think your proposal is impossible by any means.

I think it is possible to spread the bacteria that causes the symptoms of Crohn's. It would be pretty hard to prove, on way or another, but pushing a instrument backwards up the intestinal tract, certainly brings bacteria with it. And the intestinal tract is not in a natural state before or after a colonoscopy, so who knows what contamination could take place.

I am certain that most cases of Crohn's have a genetic component to it, but it is the bacterial infection that causes the actual symptoms. Or, rather it is the bodies dysfunctional immune system that tries to kill the bacteria but cannot get rid of it. This never ending inflammatory process is what causes symptoms and damage.

E-Coli, H-Pylori, Mycobacterium Avium subspecies Paratuberculosis (MAP) and fungus likely all contribute to the disease, but all these pathogens do not have to be present to cause symptoms. There may be others also.

I kill the bacteria directly with Chlorine Dioxide. I kill it indirectly with Low Dose Naltrexone.

Simple treatment that has worked just fine for over two years now. No side effects after first two weeks of use. Long term side effects are protection from Cancer, other autoimmune diseases.

Dan

Chlorine Dioxide?? is that safe ? how do you use it???

 

[D Bergy]

I feel it is safe for occasional use. Thousands of people have used it with no problems besides stomach upset.

It is sold under the name Miracle Mineral Supplement. You mix it with vinegar or Citric Acid and it produces Chlorine Dioxide.

The properties of Chlorine Dioxide that make it work are that it oxidizes acidic bacteria. It does this by tearing electrons from the bacteria. Most normal, beneficial bacteria is not acidic, and not affected. This makes it about as perfect as you can get as you can remove pathogenic bacteria, without destroying the good bacteria you need.

In spite of that, it would not hurt to use a good probiotic to be safe.

Dan

 

[Regular Joe]

Hi Wild Bill,

My CD is located in the ileum. They discovered it through a colonoscopy this time. Seven years ago, my small bowel went partially obstructed, once again with most "activity" in the ileum. I wish they would have done a colonscopy back seven years ago, they probably would have diagnosed it sooner.

I'm not sure about bacterial theories, but I believe the disease is progressive. I also believe that it takes a good deal of time before the the immune system takes enough "actions" to become a Crohn's flare. From what I understand, we get erosions, then attempts at healing, then thickening, and after a time the afflicted part starts to develop granulomas (sp?). I understand this to be a long-term process, not just the time it takes the immune system to act upon a bacterium - or that "suddenly" the classic physiological CD symptoms beome clear enough to make a diagnosis.

From what I've seen and people I've talked with, some folks have Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS), or G.E.R.D, or upper GI problems for years before a Crohn's Disease onset or diagnosis. I tend to agree with DBergy about the genetic component. However, I believe there is probably a more than the 20 - 30% of CD cases related to the genetic component. Why?

Well, the genetic component discussion is usually related to "first degree" relative (parental or immediate siblings) with Crohn's Disease specifically. But I've also read, and believe, there is more to the genetic component(s) than a Crohn's diagnosis.

Now this is just me talking, but if you "look at the math", I've believe there are more in the "genetically pre-disposed" pool of CD patients than just having first degree relatives with Crohn's Disease. I believe that Ulcerative Colitis is so similar that it can't be excluded from genetics. My grandmother had Diverticulosis, and when the diverticulum became "inflamed" (read "inflammatory"), she diveloped a colon condition known as "diverticulitis" which is 1. inflammatory and 2. affects the lower bowel, and 3. is chronic. Diverticulosis doesn't go away unless it's surgically treated, and it can be deadly. I had a friend who had undiagnosed Diverticuolosis. He never had diverticulitis, but a diverticulum burst and that became fatal due to complications from a neuro disease he had. So when asking for expert opinion, can diverticular disease be considered IBD? I don't know? But it's been my experience that if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks, it's probably a duck!

Take a look at Celiacs Disease. It's some kind of autoimmune disorder where the immune system attacks and destroys the small intestine's ability to absorb nutrients. It's an immune system reaction to gluten which is contained in mostly anything made out of flour or grain or that has starch in it. If Celiacs is like many other immune system "reactions", it might have an allergic compenent which would automatically mean that "inflammation" is involved. It has symptoms similar to IBS, and it's mainly heriditary also. Another "disease" of the bowel that is incurable. I'm not sure if anything becomes "inflamed" in the "attack" process of Celiacs, but it's about as dibilitating as Crohn's, and the "EIM's" of Celiacs are along the same lines.

What I'm saying is if you throw in Diverticulosis and Celiacs Disease into the "genetic component" discussion, then I think you'd find a percentage greater than 30%. In my case, I strongly believe that my grandmother's Diverticulosis was the genetic component in developing Crohn's.

Getting back to my "math", the genetic link to a larger pool of people who are suseptible, or "pre-disposed" to get Crohn's using the other two incurable and inherited bowel diseases might make the "other 75%" of so-called "environmentally" acquired Crohn's Disease cases easier to explain. When I was looking into the things that might have triggered my CD, I nearly fell on the floor.

I read that smoking can trigger active Crohn's in a genetically pre-disposed person not having onset. Fine, I don't smoke. But wait - when I read that Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID's) can also trigger active Crohn's in a genetically pre-disposed person not having onset, my jaw hit the floor. I MISSED THAT MEMO!!! NSAID's are downright dangerous.

I've had chronic migraines for years, and I abused the hell out of NSAID's. I ate ibuprofen and naproxin like candy for years. After seeing a neurologist who prescriped a "migraine prohylactic" along with triptan medication, I was able to treat the migraines without NSAID's. Finally, last spring I had lung surgery to remove a tumor (yes - I now know there is a correlation between CD and lung disorders), and my migraines have virtually disappeared. But the damage was done. Now - duh? Can you imagine how stooooopid I felt after getting diagnosed with Crohn's Disease that NSAID's probably had a direct role in this?

So it really doesn't matter what I didn't know about CD, or what was scientifically documented about CD. Like you Wild Bill, I got the disease now, and what's worse is that it was something I now see that I might have avoided.

There is one more thing. According to the percentages of CD patients, there are almost 80% of us who have Crohn's Disease which involves the ileum - Crohn's Ileitis and Crohn's Ileocolitis. The majority of the other cases are Crohn's Colitis (my girlfriend's "brand"). Wild Bill, if you do the math, the odds are 4 in 5 that if a person develops Crohn's Disease, the ileum will be an affected part.

I'm not an expert in anything, and there's much more that I don't know than what I do know. I'm just sort of "geeky", and also have OCD which means I'll obsess about Crohn's until I become a walking encyclopedia. Forgive me if I come off as a "know-it-all".

Good luck Wild Bill and may God bless you and keep you well as can be on this lifelong journey.

 

[wild_one353]

Hi Wild Bill,

My CD is located in the ileum. They discovered it through a colonoscopy this time. Seven years ago, my small bowel went partially obstructed, once again with most "activity" in the ileum. I wish they would have done a colonscopy back seven years ago, they probably would have diagnosed it sooner.

I'm not sure about bacterial theories, but I believe the disease is progressive. I also believe that it takes a good deal of time before the the immune system takes enough "actions" to become a Crohn's flare. From what I understand, we get erosions, then attempts at healing, then thickening, and after a time the afflicted part starts to develop granulomas (sp?). I understand this to be a long-term process, not just the time it takes the immune system to act upon a bacterium - or that "suddenly" the classic physiological CD symptoms beome clear enough to make a diagnosis.

From what I've seen and people I've talked with, some folks have Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS), or G.E.R.D, or upper GI problems for years before a Crohn's Disease onset or diagnosis. I tend to agree with DBergy about the genetic component. However, I believe there is probably a more than the 20 - 30% of CD cases related to the genetic component. Why?

Well, the genetic component discussion is usually related to "first degree" relative (parental or immediate siblings) with Crohn's Disease specifically. But I've also read, and believe, there is more to the genetic component(s) than a Crohn's diagnosis.

Now this is just me talking, but if you "look at the math", I've believe there are more in the "genetically pre-disposed" pool of CD patients than just having first degree relatives with Crohn's Disease. I believe that Ulcerative Colitis is so similar that it can't be excluded from genetics. My grandmother had Diverticulosis, and when the diverticulum became "inflamed" (read "inflammatory"), she diveloped a colon condition known as "diverticulitis" which is 1. inflammatory and 2. affects the lower bowel, and 3. is chronic. Diverticulosis doesn't go away unless it's surgically treated, and it can be deadly. I had a friend who had undiagnosed Diverticuolosis. He never had diverticulitis, but a diverticulum burst and that became fatal due to complications from a neuro disease he had. So when asking for expert opinion, can diverticular disease be considered IBD? I don't know? But it's been my experience that if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks, it's probably a duck!

Take a look at Celiacs Disease. It's some kind of autoimmune disorder where the immune system attacks and destroys the small intestine's ability to absorb nutrients. It's an immune system reaction to gluten which is contained in mostly anything made out of flour or grain or that has starch in it. If Celiacs is like many other immune system "reactions", it might have an allergic compenent which would automatically mean that "inflammation" is involved. It has symptoms similar to IBS, and it's mainly heriditary also. Another "disease" of the bowel that is incurable. I'm not sure if anything becomes "inflamed" in the "attack" process of Celiacs, but it's about as dibilitating as Crohn's, and the "EIM's" of Celiacs are along the same lines.

What I'm saying is if you throw in Diverticulosis and Celiacs Disease into the "genetic component" discussion, then I think you'd find a percentage greater than 30%. In my case, I strongly believe that my grandmother's Diverticulosis was the genetic component in developing Crohn's.

Getting back to my "math", the genetic link to a larger pool of people who are suseptible, or "pre-disposed" to get Crohn's using the other two incurable and inherited bowel diseases might make the "other 75%" of so-called "environmentally" acquired Crohn's Disease cases easier to explain. When I was looking into the things that might have triggered my CD, I nearly fell on the floor.

I read that smoking can trigger active Crohn's in a genetically pre-disposed person not having onset. Fine, I don't smoke. But wait - when I read that Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID's) can also trigger active Crohn's in a genetically pre-disposed person not having onset, my jaw hit the floor. I MISSED THAT MEMO!!! NSAID's are downright dangerous.

I've had chronic migraines for years, and I abused the hell out of NSAID's. I ate ibuprofen and naproxin like candy for years. After seeing a neurologist who prescriped a "migraine prohylactic" along with triptan medication, I was able to treat the migraines without NSAID's. Finally, last spring I had lung surgery to remove a tumor (yes - I now know there is a correlation between CD and lung disorders), and my migraines have virtually disappeared. But the damage was done. Now - duh? Can you imagine how stooooopid I felt after getting diagnosed with Crohn's Disease that NSAID's probably had a direct role in this?

So it really doesn't matter what I didn't know about CD, or what was scientifically documented about CD. Like you Wild Bill, I got the disease now, and what's worse is that it was something I now see that I might have avoided.

There is one more thing. According to the percentages of CD patients, there are almost 80% of us who have Crohn's Disease which involves the ileum - Crohn's Ileitis and Crohn's Ileocolitis. The majority of the other cases are Crohn's Colitis (my girlfriend's "brand"). Wild Bill, if you do the math, the odds are 4 in 5 that if a person develops Crohn's Disease, the ileum will be an affected part.

I'm not an expert in anything, and there's much more that I don't know than what I do know. I'm just sort of "geeky", and also have OCD which means I'll obsess about Crohn's until I become a walking encyclopedia. Forgive me if I come off as a "know-it-all".

Good luck Wild Bill and may God bless you and keep you well as can be on this lifelong journey.

just stay on topic here, this thread isnt exactly about the role of genetics in cd, its whether or not the opening of the ileocecal valve during a colonoscopy is able to spread symptoms to the small bowel. And if anyone has experianced a sequence of events similar to my own experiances, that may suggest this is what happened. And to be sure what we accept as the "natural progression of this disease" isnt just a product of tinkering around down there by colonoscopys.


Thanks for chiming in to tell me about your crohn's begining in the small bowel. Thats does seem to suggest that in my case, it could have just spread entirely on its own with no influence from the colonoscopy, and im open to this possibility.
you seem to be suggesting that in all probability, "it", whatever "it" is(cd inflammation), would have just spread throughout the small intestine anyways "somehow" on its own, with no logic whatsoever other then this is "how it is" and that the opening of the ileocecal valve played no part in its spread throughout the small bowel, and that could be possible as well. i would think that my application of reasonand some rationale to some cases of CD's "progression" would at least be more favored, then the "thats just how it is" type of dogma. Of course, a colonoscopy may not be the only way anyone would ever have had symptoms in the small bowel, but in some cases, mine being a possible one, there may exist this possiblity of the colonoscopy procedure worsening someones condition.

I know that crohn's colitis many times affects the iluem, but in my particular experiance, all inflammation was specifically designated to one area i could identify personally by touch 4 months before colonoscopy, and were basically stable. 2 weeks After the colonoscopy i began to notice some spreading of inflammation, or abdominal swelling in places other then the typical places, in another two weeks i had to accept that it had definitly spread to the small bowel.

i know i may appear like someone trying to play the blame game here saying they made it worse, my interests arent to blame, there are very real reasons why i believe in the possibility of the colonoscopy to make crohns patients worse off. The ileoceal valve has a most definite purpose to keep the contents of the cecum(large intestine) separate from the small intestine. And in no way is having air blown into your ass a natural event, or even a colonoscopy a natural event that the body was built to accomadate. So its reasonable to think that the air that opened the ileocecal valve could have spread contents from the large intestine, into the small intestine.

And yea it may not matter too much now because all is said and done, but to me, my own first hand observatinos suggest a pathological bacterial component, not ensure, but suggest. So i guess that is what all this understanding may be worth, as well as perhaps as far as providing more caution to future colonoscopy
procedures so perhaps nobodys condition is worsened. Im also pretty open to being wrong as well. but i will evaluate all the facts either way, because i also may be on to something here, and i dont want to just brush it off if i am somewhat accurate in my thinking and observations.

granuloma - a ball-like collection of immune cells which forms when the immune system attempts to wall off substances that it perceives as foreign but is unable to eliminate. Such substances include infectious organisms such as bacteria and fungi as well as other materials such as keratin, suture fragments and vegetable particles.

 

[wild_one353]

Oops - sorry - we strayed there for a bit :O) Thanks for the redirection.

Hey - I loves me some debate there WildBill! If no one ever debated, how would we figure stuff out? So, are you saying that you think a good majority of ileo involved Crohn's might be caused by these scopes that venture into the valve? I definitely get the concern for spreading bacteria backwards that doesn't "belong" in the small bowel, I just don't know if I think it can be the soul cause of disease there. My sis had ulcers in her ileum (the ONLY place she has it so far) on the *first* scope she had done. Hmmm, what about if the valve doesn't work right and maybe - like reflux for some people - allows stuff back in from the colon? Hey - I'm just trying to think along your lines......

whether the valve is malfunctioning is always a possibility as well im sure. And yea, from the fact that it can start in the small intestine is another reason why the colonoscopy may not be the sole cause of crohn's affecting the ileum, but im really coming up with all this by paying close attention to my own experiances, which can be so very different from everyone else. But i wonder if anyone has had an experiance like mine where it was strictly in the colon, then after colonoscopy rapidly progressed to the small intestine.

 

[D Bergy]

The scope is also scraping along where ever it goes. Your gut does not normally have a long hunk of stainless steel rubbing the intestinal walls. I am sure some of the mucous barrier is scraped away allowing bacteria into close proximity to the gut.

Most any medical procedure has some risk, and I am sure there are a few with this one also. I know of at least one person that had his bowel perforated by a scope.
In spite of that and other unknown risks, it really is the only way to get a good look at things.

I had parasites that were not eliminated by the prep. It would even be easier for bacteria to remain, even though you are flushed out.

Dan

 

[wild_one353]

The scope is also scraping along where ever it goes. Your gut does not normally have a long hunk of stainless steel rubbing the intestinal walls. I am sure some of the mucous barrier is scraped away allowing bacteria into close proximity to the gut.

Most any medical procedure has some risk, and I am sure there are a few with this one also. I know of at least one person that had his bowel perforated by a scope.
In spite of that and other unknown risks, it really is the only way to get a good look at things.

I had parasites that were not eliminated by the prep. It would even be easier for bacteria to remain, even though you are flushed out.

Dan

supposedly they are developing or have developed a way of measuring inflammation from just a stool sample for diagnosing ibd, i dont know much about it though, something about measuring the levels of calprotectin.

i wish i had that test instead!!

 

[Regular Joe]

I'm sorry for going into so many details.

I know only a little about how this disease becomes active. I don't also understand the theory your proposing, Wild Bill. That's not saying you're wrong, or even that I disagree with you. You know there are lots of disadvantages in blogging on a forum, and my perceptions and assumptions, and your perceptions and assumptions can carry a discussion in place totally unintended.

I don't fully understand the idea regarding Crohn's Disease having a bacterial startup which possibly trigger the onset. So maybe the point I was trying to make is this.

1. I strongly believe there is a genetic component that makes "us" more inclined to develop this disease. I believe that since you've been diagnosed as "one of us", Wild Bill, that there is a significant possibility you were genetically pre-disposed to developing CD. That's just in the math of CD. This is one point I've tried to make - probably not as clear as I wanted to.

2. I've been told by physicians and CD patients that this disease, regardless of where it onsets, can "spread" if that's the correct term, to any point in the digestive tract from esophagus to anus. I also understand that this disease has "Extra-Intestinal Manifestations" (EIM's) that can effect many organs of the body outside the digestive tract. The second point I was trying to make is, again using the math, Crohn's Disease in my ileum where it was found to be active won't necessarily keep itself confined to my small intestine.

Those are the only two facts that have a significant impact on ME coping and living with this disease - it doesn't apply to anyone or everyone else. Whether it's bacterial or not, is academic to me. I could have brought the thing out of it's cage by "abusing" NSAID's. Your colonoscopy procedure could have opened boundaries for this disease that might have remained shut over your lifetime. Or maybe not?

Perhaps the disease was already at work asymptomatically in your small intestine or ileum. Perhaps the disease would have taken an opportunity to attack your ileum at a later date - which possibly could have corresponded to a different event occring at or near that time. And you might have been able to formulate a different theory.

Either way, the information can only be speculative at best, unless we diligently pursue dedicated and controlled research - which in the case of your theory could present a significant precaution that might help hundreds. Or it could open a theraputic door that is shut right now. Since you believe as strongly as you do, perhaps you owe it to yourself, and to "us", to objectively test and evaluate your theory. Or at least harvest more specific information and share it. For sure, I'd strongly recommend for you to follow the path you've started.

Also, if you haven't already done this, what does your GI think about what you're theorizing? Are there any specialist GI's in your area that have a passion for Crohn's Disease and treatment? There are two renowned physicians here in Cleveland. Both have published excellent research papers and are passionate about CD.

I've met both of them, and I'm probably going to switch over to one in particular. I felt a connection with the guy from Cleveland Clinic - it was like he could read me - and he answered my questions with concern and respect. He indicated that he was willing to take me on as a patient. It can only be helpful for you to find a physician that has passion and is willing to lend an ear 0 especially if you are the inquisitive and/or "debating" type.

Finally, my last point, Wild Bill, is that I empathize with you, and having the pains, and having all the "why" or "what if" questions. I just got the diagnosis a couple weeks ago, and there are hundreds of thoughts. questions, and feelings that go through my mind - so many slip away and aren't shared here. In no way am I suggesting that your ideas or theories aren't worth pursuing. I have the same disease, and I'd never "poo-poo" another person with this disease. or think they're ideas were moot. I'm really grateful this forum is available for us.

I do wish you blessings on this lifelong path. God bless.
Joseph

 

[D Bergy]

To my way of thinking, the bacterial element was critical to know. I can influence, kill, or change bacterial content in my intestines. This actually was the single most important factor that I needed to know.

Otherwise I am at the mercy of the "body attacking itself" theory, which sounds far fetched to me. The theory supposes that we already know all pathogens present, and the effect of those pathogens on all humans. Something I know is not even close to true.

Dan

 

[dmdenoux1]

My husband had a colonoscopy and 3 weeks later was doubled over with pain and what was thought to be a small intestine obstruction. After abdominal surgery, an 11 day hospital stay, tons of CT scans. A double balloon edoscopic procedure the doctors have ruled out blockage, tumors, kink, etc. They keep trying to pin a diagnosis of crohns on him but blood work, his age, the fact that he's never presented with symptoms and no family history of the disease one specialist is now admitting that his problem could have been caused by bacteria that Inflamed a small section of his small intestine and caused that section to basically shut down. He is improving and has had no more symptoms and his bowels are functioning normally but they do want to do an MRI on the lowest section of his small intestine to completely rule out crohns. My husband and I do feel that the colonoscopy is what started all of this