great article. And I'm glad you are contributing to this thread.This article talks about researchers looking at the role of dysbiosis in inflammation of the gut and how that inflammation cascades into other events including diminished effectiveness or even death of paneth cells, a key defense component in the epitheleal lining of the intestine.
They hope their research can uncover how to make fecal transplants more effective for CD and UC treatment.
here is the full study. http://gut.bmj.com/content/early/2015/04/16/gutjnl-2015-309333.full.pdf+htmlThis article talks about researchers looking at the role of dysbiosis in inflammation of the gut and how that inflammation cascades into other events including diminished effectiveness or even death of paneth cells, a key defense component in the epitheleal lining of the intestine.
They hope their research can uncover how to make fecal transplants more effective for CD and UC treatment.
Jansen and Jansen have pills on the way I'm pretty sure.Another Crohn's FMT study with only one treatment but quite positive results. Do Donor similarity seems to be key once to a successful outcome once again. Still seems like FMT for ibd is more viable as a continuous treatment rather than a cure at this point.
Thanks but we already posted this awesome study, see post #339 on page 12.Another Crohn's FMT study with only one treatment but quite positive results. Donor similarity seems to be key once again to a successful outcome once again. Still seems like FMT for ibd is more viable as a continuous treatment rather than a cure at this point.
Reposts of news are always good incase people have missed older posts so don't worry too much if something's already been posted, if it raises more awareness it's a win.Thanks for pointing it out! Was latest news at an ibd news site, I'll check more thoroughly next time.
The modern infatuation with cleanliness stems in part from the misguided midcentury thinking that most microbes cause disease, and that the absence of microbes is therefore a key component of health. Over the last twenty years, the use of culture-independent methods that allow us to identify the members of human-associated microbial communities that are difficult to grow in the laboratory, together with epidemiological studies and studies of germ-free mice, has started to change this thinking. There is now compelling evidence that the opposite is true: rather than reducing microbial exposure, we should balance our symbiotic microbial communities to protect us from pathogens and disease states.
yea that would be awesome, assuming these bacteria are good, which they probably are. it inspire's me to find wild growing fruits and veggies to hopefully gain bacteria I've never been exposed to or even lost. May even try to ferment wild fruits like make some natural wine or something.I wish I could get a transplant from those Malawi and Venezualian rural people they are talking about :ysmile:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2945190/Therefore, lowering the recipient bacterial load by antibiotic intake prior to transplantation did not increase establishment of the donor phylotypes, although some dominant lineages still transferred successfully. However, since antibiotic pretreatment counterintuitively interferes with the establishment of an exogenous community, such plasticity is likely conditioned more by the altered microbiome gut homeostasis caused by antibiotics than by the primary bacterial loss.
Because of limited resources, the researchers invited only 77 of the 251 potential donors to the onsite visit for further evaluation. After clinical assessment, 50 people were excluded, mainly because of sexual history (10%), travel history (10%), or psychiatric concerns (18%).
The remaining 27 potential donors underwent blood and stool assessment, which eliminated 15 people because of stool, not blood, screening considerations.
Six people were excluded because of rotavirus, which was asymptomatic. None of these donors had healthcare exposure or contact with young children or daycare, Burns pointed out.
"We ultimately enrolled 12 donors, which was an 8.5% donor enrolment rate," she said.
Just make saline solution, you mix a certain amount of salt into water, preferably distilled i have instruction in the first post of this thread. If you are drinking it the salt will help mask the taste going down, also the saline should be chilled in the refrigerator or on ice the coldness will also mask the taste. keep your nose plugged during and for 20 minutes after so you do not smell it. DO all this and your stomach should hold it all down. I've done it 2x, so speaking from experiance of course.Wildbill, testing donor is not available to me since I dont live in the us... and only c diff is alllowed here for fmt. Alsp onlne test kits are a hasske I am willing to risk...plus my donor is healthy from all the questions I have imposed on him.
Moreover regarding the fiber issue, I dont really wanna step on my donors toes. He is totally against vegetables...so my only other fiber source are fruits.
He is also someone who is a huge spicy food person and I have requested him to leave spicy food during the week that he is staying with me just imcase it may affect stool quality.
Overall I think this weekends fmt, is an endevour I am hoping to get rwsults from.
Onky other question I have is.... for saline solution how do you make them or do you get storebought ones.
Plus is there a reason why you use saline instead of distilled water for oral transplants...
I dont see osmolality affecting fmt ( care to explain a little)
There are a few concerns regarding keeping it chilled ...wont coldness affect the bacteria s activity... anyway...to mask the taste ( despite having very little gag reflex) I have decided to get some sort of liquid flavouring. Possibly vanilla or smth.Just make saline solution, you mix a certain amount of salt into water, preferably distilled i have instruction in the first post of this thread. If you are drinking it the salt will help mask the taste going down, also the saline should be chilled in the refrigerator or on ice the coldness will also mask the taste. keep your nose plugged during and for 20 minutes after so you do not smell it. DO all this and your stomach should hold it all down. I've done it 2x, so speaking from experiance of course.
Hey thx for the suggestions, really mean it.. since sm1 might have a better method to proceed with fmt and make it work.Rebel, great info, thanks. It's always very interesting to read about how FMT is going as I think it might be the way forwards. It's just getting the technique right. I'm looking forward to hearing your results.
Would your donor drink something like Fibrogel for fibre beforehand. Don't really know if it would help, but many people do take it to up their fibre intake. It could be sprinkled into fruit juice. I don't know if it's called that in Singapore, but I'm sure there is some kind of equivalent.
I guess I will probably be doing with saline solhtion instead of water then. And I completely agree with regarding putting as science on yr side to keep odds up. Fingers crossed.Rebel 1992, The saline would be used for osmolarity issues, if the PH is not right this can stress the bacteria out and some may die. Most of my advice are based in science, so I'm not trying not to do too much guessing on this, by understanding as much science as you can this will increase your success, so it's not a, my method/opinion or your method/opinion type of issue, all of our opinions can be as firmly backed by science as possible, although you may also think of some new solutions by yourself which is great, and you also may have actual experience above and beyond the current science can offer. Its possible plain old water would be fine, but you should use the science we have to increase your chances of success and do not stray too much further from that, this will help you construct the best plan for success, because how many times do you really want to do this? or how long do you think your donor will cooperate? good luck.
I used 3 different donors for 4 attempts. Sister, cousin, and cousins son.wildbill - I just skimmed through this thread for the first time, and read many of the posts about your attempts at faecal transplants, and I have a couple of questions. (I'm sorry if I've missed the answers somewhere in the thread already.)
What is your relationship with your doners?
How am I certain my return to normal weight was a result of the fecal transplant? Because I've never weighed more then 134 lbs in the last six years of having crohn's and directly 8 weeks after the the FMT I gained around 9 pounds, 4 months later I gained about 15 pounds total. This was all without increasing my caloric intake, in all likelihood it was the fecal transplant. My bowel movements became healthier looking, and my mood improved all during this time. These changes are way beyond being a result of my own wishful thinking they are objective(other people can see it too/not in my head) and measureable/quantifiable. My mood in general has improved as well my anxiety is lower now, that isnt easily measureble by anyone but me though so you'll have to trust me on that one, but gi inflammation and the microbiome itself is implicated in anxiety, plenty of science to support my claims here.How can you be certain the changes you've noted were due to the transplant? You say your diet is consistent, but more things can affect symptoms than diet, including internal workings in our bodies which we are not aware of. In particular, how are you able to know your mood changes are results of the transplants? They could be placebo effects. No one's mood is consistent all the time, so it is difficult to determine they are the result of one factor, unless the mood changes are severe and have happened every time you do a transplant, which you haven't done enough times yet to know the mood change is always the result.
my entire health declined not just my digestive symptoms, my mental health was affected alot too. I have chronic fatigue attention deficits and memory issues, THAT is why I'm driven. I have considered in teh past year the i may have also had c difficile on top of crohn's and that why i may have become so much worse after my colonoscopy but the doctor just ignored me when i said it got worse after the colonoscopy, during that time i had no idea what crohn's or c. difficle even was to question the doctors and have them test me for c. difficile. It is frequently contracted in medical facilities. Even though I control my diarhea with diet and some meds, I still want to restore my ability to digest food normally.Your digestive symptoms don't sound all that bad at the moment, and I wondered why you are so driven to achieve healing to go to the lengths you're going to with this?
the ability to eat foods with sugar in it like fruits and not have any increased symptoms of diarhea. and I would also like my energy levels to go back to normal.my first symptom after taking the antibiotic augmentin/amoxicillin-clavulanic acid was horrible fatigue and anxiety. It took a few more months for digestive issues to develop.What would you view as a clear success regarding your digestive symptoms?
before i did the FMT my doctor indicated all bloods tests came back normal that included inflammation indicators c-reactive protein and sedimentation rate. I refuse colonoscopy because of how it made my symptoms so much worse.Do you have regular medical tests, whether blood tests, scopes or anything else? What sort of disease status is indicated by your recent results, and, again, what would you view as a clear improvement?
It's unknown. Alot of the bacteria are similar though. Definitely not recommended.Oh, and one very different question: what would happen if you did a faecal transplant with animals other than humans for doners?! I'm sure there are obvious reasons why this wouldn't work, but it seems far less disgusting to consume animal faeces.
I have thought about it and after FMT I may have my microbiome tested to see how i stack up against healthy microbiome.Thank you for answering, can I ask a few more things? The main changes you are aiming for are regarding your mental health, fatigue and memory, but is there much evidence faecal transplants help with these things? I've only really heard it talked about in relation to bowel conditions. I think I saw earlier in this thread you gave links to the odd account of faecal transplants helping other things, but there are treatments for your mental health problems which have far more chance of working.
Also, since you are going about this very scientifically, would it be beneficial to have more medical tests so you have information about what is happening to you? Not necessarily a scope if they make you worse, but imaging studies, and frequent blood and stool tests, for example? Also, have you considered any scientific ways of measuring your mental improvements? E.g. neuropsychological tests?
Have you had any ideas about how to reduce the hygiene risks?!
Thanks again for your answers.
Many people find that their fatigue
improves as their IBD improves.
However, for some, there can be a time
lag of weeks or even months before they
regain their normal energy levels.
Sometimes the fatigue does not go away
even when the IBD seems to be
completely under control. Fatigue
continues to affect over 2 out of 5 people
whose IBD is in remission.
Note; I cant tolerateHey wildbill, I will doing my first oral fmt today... just looking up on the net... I was intending to add chia seeds after downing the oral fmt.
Do you think chia seeds may help? Since it forms almost like a mucilage sort of action on the intestines...or should I just stick to plain oold oats for the fiber?
There is plenty of evidence that the microbiome is directly related to autism spectrum disorders, so fmt most certainly can have an effect on mental symptoms.So you're not having any tests done? Have there been cases where faecal transplants have helped mental symptoms?
It's all pretty "new frontier, may, might, gimme some funding and i'll do a study" or to quote one articleHave there been cases where faecal transplants have helped mental symptoms?
https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2015/05/21/whats-next-microbiomeGiven the demonstrated and potential value of microbiome research in such diverse applications, the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) is issuing a Request for Information to provide a broad community of stakeholders, including experts and members of the public an opportunity to comment on the current status and needs of microbiome research. The Request for Information can be found in the Federal Register here. OSTP encourages experts and interested individuals from across sectors and scientific disciplines to share your feedback on this critically important topic.
Any form of nasogatric tube or tubes I dont think is feasible after todays (day 2) infusion which I will update a post later on. And also I doubt it would take months, most effective fecal transplants have an almost immediate resolution of bowel problems. And its almost telepathic, in the way when IBDers know instantly when a food will cause them D once its in their stomach.... hope you get what I mean. Plus I made a typo in update 1, which I will edit later on...I love this thread, and your so brave Rebel. It will be interesting to know if things improve, but that could take months from what other people say.
Good luck. perhaps you could find a naso-gastric tube to put down there to get the **** down you.
Hey, when I was combing through this thread a few days ago. I came across this study you posted.I may have posted this before, but what does anyone make of this.
The controls were given their own poo for the transplant, and remission took place is some. A wild guess might be oral tolerance induction, or placebo effect.
Findings From a Randomized Controlled Trial of Fecal Transplantation for Patients With Ulcerative Colitis.
Rossen NG1, Fuentes S2, van der Spek MJ1, Tijssen J3, Hartman JH2, Duflou A1, Löwenberg M1, van den Brink GR1, Mathus-Vliegen EM1, de Vos WM4, Zoetendal EG2, D'Haens GR1, Ponsioen CY1.
BACKGROUND & AIMS:
Several case series have reported the effects of fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT) for ulcerative colitis (UC). We assessed the efficacy and safety of FMT for patients with UC in a double-blind randomized trial.
Patients with mild to moderately active UC (n = 50) were assigned to groups that underwent FMT with feces from healthy donors or were given autologous fecal microbiota (control); each transplant was administered via nasoduodenal tube at the start of the study and 3 weeks later. The study was performed at the Academic Medical Center in Amsterdam from June 2011 through May 2014. The composite primary end point was clinical remission (simple clinical colitis activity index scores ≤2) combined with ≥1-point decrease in the Mayo endoscopic score at week 12. Secondary end points were safety and microbiota composition by phylogenetic microarray in fecal samples.
Thirty-seven patients completed the primary end point assessment. In the intention-to-treat analysis, 7 of 23 patients who received fecal transplants from healthy donors (30.4%) and 5 of 25 controls (20.0%) achieved the primary end point (P = .51). In the per-protocol analysis, 7 of 17 patients who received fecal transplants from healthy donors (41.2%) and 5 of 20 controls (25.0%) achieved the primary end point (P = .29). Serious adverse events occurred in 4 patients (2 in the FMT group), but these were not considered to be related to the FMT. At 12 weeks, the microbiota of responders in the FMT group was similar to that of their healthy donors; remission was associated with proportions of Clostridium clusters IV and XIVa.
In this phase 2 trial, there was no statistically significant difference in clinical and endoscopic remission between patients with UC who received fecal transplants from healthy donors and those who received their own fecal microbiota, which may be due to limited numbers. However, the microbiota of responders had distinct features from that of nonresponders, warranting further study. ClinicalTrials.gov Number: NCT01650038.
old mke, thanks for sharing , this is def one topic to look up on.Here is something on oral tolerance, which was a big theory for IBD years ago.
Since they used a nasoduodenal tube the stool is released into the first part of the small intestine so basically the whole small intestine is exposed to the bacteria and any antigens. The immune sampling for oral tolerance seems to be mostly done in the small intestine. You could have a whole thread on oral tolerance, whether it is a valid IBD theory not sure. Otherwise I am having a tuff time explaining remission in the above
trial by using your own stool as the control.
Since I cannot get the whole paper,dont know what else they did or meds the people were on. Another interesting thing is that those with UC have dysbiotic colon bacteria, so how the hell can basically eating dysbiotic bacteria correct
the dysbiosis, unless the immune system is now tolerating the colon bacteria, which would down regulate the immune response, and ROS generation shifting
the facultative anaerobe populations back to the strict anaerobes in the
Clostridium cluster XIVa and IV.
Perhaps someone can get the paper.
I guess I will have to start researching oral tolerance again, did it years ago
but there is probably new info.
yes, you do need live bacteria. How else will they repopulate your intestinal wall if they are dead?I know that is how they do it but is it the best way.
There is going to be oxygen in the saline, unless air is removed.
50% die in 4-5 minutes, so depending on how long people mess with this
you can have variable amounts of live bacteria.
Which brings up the question, do you even need a whole bunch of live bacteria.
This was the first question I thought of - what other treatments were involved? Though I assume somewhere in the full paper they take them into account. It would also be interesting to know what the results would be for a group getting no faecal treatment at all.Since I cannot get the whole paper,dont know what else they did or meds the people were on.
just take the time to read the studies that have already been done on the first page of this thread and on c. diff, and good luck.Hey wildbill, my expectatins of fmt are actually very similar to yrs.you see I dont necessarily have the equipment to ever statistically ensure that my microbiota is similar to that of my donor. Not to mention we do not yet have evidence of what an ideal donor microbiota should be like. Note: this is actually my 4th time doing fmt, the amount of fecal matter I have ingested on this 4th try is more than what I can say for the other 3. Donor's diet and all... my expectations from fmt are mainly the ability to start digesting normal fruits like apples without discomfort, and of yesterdays post, I am writing to inform that even though I felt like I was about to have diarhea today, I had one normal stool. That means the apple didnt give me diarhea this time around.
However I did feel a little discomfort with apples.
Not to mention I consumed several handful of grapes yesterday ...so if I get D later maybe it might not have worked ...who knows.
However I do agree with you on that the microbiome will take several days if not weeks for it to get established. Any maybe I might have started consuming forbidden foods too soon.
Well, I ll try apples in another few days time.
And lastly, regarding the issue of taking it months to work, I dont necessarily agree with that...like for c diff treatmemt, if it works...its almost within a few days. And even for ibd, most who have had success works within a few days. If not immediate.
I completely agree with this.. but I was having a dilemma at moment of fmt. Didnt do it though.Here is why you dont want to use acid blockers when doing an oral FMT.
Normal healthy color will range from light brown to medium brown, always brown though. Green is not good, black is not good, red(blood) is not good, and pale/white, absence of brown pigment is also not good.And guys, I would like a response to the following regardless if another erson has answered it. Caused I dont neccessarily think anyone has the definite answer.
Now when I look up medical websites etc, they always say that a normal healthy stool colour is one that is ranges from green to dark briwn. But when I was a kid, my stools in each bm were about 3 stools. And were dark brown. I mean dark brown.
P.s I am uploading a stool chart into my profile's photo album regarding colour of stool.
I am asking this because the donor I did the fmt with had a light coloured stool regarless of what he ate and only had 1 stool in each bm regardless of how much he ate the day before.