Spooky1
Well-known member
I read this in the news too, Bill. I'm still waiting although it seems tempting to go to South Korea, Japan, or China to get this treatment
https://www.genomeweb.com/sequencin...yses-offer-fecal-transplant-engraftment-clues"Furthermore, donor strains within a species engraft in an all-or-nothing manner and previously undetected strains frequently colonize patients receiving FMT."
Would this mean that taking mega doses of healthy bacteria, such as 50 billion Immuprobio, won't take hold? Seems to help for 24 hours but unless I take loads of them they don't have much effect and certainly nothing lasting beyond the 24 hours.
https://www.genengnews.com/gen-news...e-vs-nurture-debate-comes-into-focus/81255542The study results were very surprising—for most of these clinical measures, the association with bacterial genomes was at least as strong, and in some cases stronger, than the association with the host's human genome. These findings, according to the study investigators, provide solid evidence that understanding the factors that shape our microbiome may be key to understanding and treating many common health problems.
"We cannot change our genes, but we now know that we can affect—and even reshape—the composition of the different kinds of bacteria we host in our bodies,” concluded senior study investigator Eran Segal, Ph.D., a professor in the department of computer science and applied mathematics at the Weizmann Institute. “So, the findings of our research are quite hopeful; they suggest that our microbiome could be a powerful means for improving our health."
http://www.kpbs.org/news/2018/mar/06/fecal-transplants-potent-remedy-defies-regulation/Mark Davis said FMT is in a state of limbo as it is classified as a drug but can never be licensed as such because the FDA requires every drug to be identical from one dose to the next.
“FMT is not that and it will never be that,” he said, “so they defined it as a drug but a drug that could never be approved.”
Davis said one solution, suggested by other clinicians, would be to reclassify it as a tissue, like blood or bone marrow — something that treats and prevents disease but is never the same in every batch. But, he said, since the product is not composed of human cells, but rather bacterial cells, it couldn’t be defined as tissue by the FDA.
“What I would like the FDA to do is to say, ‘You know what? FMT is not a drug, it’s something else’,” Davis said. “And we should classify it as its own unique thing and give clinicians some more latitude to be able to treat patients with a variety of conditions.”
I have not. Is that something new? I've never heard of it.Poppysocks, have you ever tried rectal tacrolimus? I've read it has good results on rectal inflammation.
I have not. Is that something new? I've never heard of it.
i tried a mesalamine enema for a little while about 3-4 years ago, I don't think it helped very much though. I am only on remicade right now.I don't know much. These are what I had read before:
Rectal Therapy with Prograf Helped Patients with Resistant UC, Study Shows
Patients with resistant ulcerative proctitis, a mild form of ulcerative colitis (UC), respond to therapy with rectal Prograf (tacrolimus) ointment, achieving clinical remission and mucosal healing, according to the results of a small clinical trial.
ibdnewstoday.com/2017/10/17/prograf-tacrolimus-rectal-therapy-resistant-ulcerative-proctitis/
The Clinical Trial
One of the newer medications is the immunosuppressing medication, tacrolimus that has been shown to be effective in UC when taken orally. Unfortunately, the oral use of this medication can have numerous serious side effects. In order to overcome these side effects, the use of topical rectal tacrolimus has been examined. Pilot studies in ulcerative proctitis (inflammation confined to the rectum) resistant to conventional therapies have demonstrated a clinical remission in 75% of patients and although the medication was well absorbed through the lining of the bowel, the levels in the blood were very low and no serious side effects were reported. The findings suggest that this preparation is indeed effective for inflammation in the distal bowel and that the method of administration reduces side effects. Further work, however, now needs to be undertaken to validate the original findings.
clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01418131
The Published Paper of That Trial
www.cghjournal.org/article/S1542-3565(17)30258-6/fulltext
You can search in the forums for more information. I don't know if this treatment is available to patients right now; but it seems worthy of searching about it.
Like yourself, I have been dealing with a very stubborn rectal inflammation (Crohn's) for a long time, and I am starting a new treatment for it: 6mp + Cimzia + rectal mesalazine. I've already been using max. dose of 6mp, and now adding Cimzia and rectal mesalazine. I'll see how well it's going to work in three to four months.
I find drinking bone broth soup helps with my rectal inflammation.
I have a question for you: Does eating fruits (fructose) increase your rectal bleeding? It does that to me.
Have you tried vitamin E enema? SCFA/butyrate enema?
i tried a mesalamine enema for a little while about 3-4 years ago, I don't think it helped very much though. I am only on remicade right now.
I've only recently been flaring up. I've been on remicade for a very long time (15+ years), and I've been trying to modify my diet the past 7-8 years.
I was in pretty bad shape a few years ago until I discovered sushi. Sushi has been my miracle food (only the most plain sushi). It's very expensive but its held me in check and has actually helped my stools greatly (honestly to the point where they were the best they've ever been since I was diagnosed). When I'm feeling bad I stick to sushi and white rice and chicken for dinner. I've been getting very cocky though the past couple months and have been eating many things I shouldn't be (red meat, bread, espresso) and have seemed to come down with a flare. My BM's are no longer looking good and I can't seem to get back on the right track, even while sticking to my sushi, white rice and chicken diet.
I usually stay away from fruits, and rough veggies like broccoli. I try to eat things that are soft and not very crunchy. When I'm doing well though and my BM's are looking good I can usually sneak a banana in here and some apples there, and I'm usually fine.
I will ask my GI though next week about the rectal tacrolimus. It seems like an interesting treatment because it seems very specific to that area, and not something so "systemic" like remicade.
These fecal transplants though still interest me, but I feel as if these are things people that are on imunosuppressant drugs should not take.
I'm intrigued by the idea of using someone with great healthy stool to help others with our health concerns be able to be healthy too. I'm a little frustrated that doctors in Indiana do not seem to take IBSD and these issues seriously. I don't even see my doctor anymore and have been told by my regular doctor I need to go back. I know I do but they don't help me and I'm just wasting money so why go see them? Anyways I also tried the Everlywell blood test to see if there were foods that were making my IBSD worse and I had several show up and now I do not eat gluten or milk products. I know I still have IBSD but at least I know some of what triggers my problem as well.
Brief Summary:
The gut microbiota is considered to constitute a "microbial organ" which has pivotal roles in the intestinal diseases and body's metabolism. Evidence from animal and human studies strongly supports the link between intestinal bacteria and inflammatory bowel diseases (IBD). Dozens of studies reported its efficacy in treatment of severe Clostridium difficile colitis. Preliminary studies using FMT for Ulcerative Colitis (UC), Crohn's diseases (CD), irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) and constipation have also met with some success. However, the results on CD is very limited. This is an initial step into investigating the potential efficacy of fecal bacteriotherapy for CD, the investigators propose to determine the efficiency, durability and safety of FMT in a series of 500 patients with CD in ten years.
That sounds like news indeed, do you have a link to the study?
Fecal transplant shows promise in IBD, other chronic conditions
https://www.healio.com/gastroentero...shows-promise-in-ibd-other-chronic-conditions
more than 150 drug makers globally are working on potential medicines for various disorders that could be linked to the human microbiome, and they have invested more than $2 billion in research, said Mo Langhi, an organizer of this week’s microbiome conference.
It sounds like a preposterous idea: Collect a sample of every type of bacteria that lives in the human gut. But that’s the goal of Bernat Olle, an MIT-trained chemical engineer. Over the past three years, the Cambridge biotech startup he runs, Vedanta Biosciences Inc., has assembled a menagerie of some 60,000 bacteria types.
Madelynn Hernandez was in a battle. The California teenager loved to draw, dance, and study math, but her Crohn’s disease was seriously getting in the way.
“I had so much nausea, and my head was often spinning,” she says. “Sometimes I had good days and I was fine, but on the bad days, I just wanted to stay at home and lie on the couch. I was missing a lot of school.”
So last fall, when her doctor talked to her about being part of a study of new treatments for young people with bowel diseases, Hernandez jumped at the chance, even if it meant having someone else’s fecal matter put inside her body.
Since receiving her fecal transplant, Hernandez’s Crohn’s disease remains in remission, and she has stopped taking most of her medications. In the next few months, the now 16-year-old expects to eliminate all of them.
“I feel so much better,” Hernandez says. “No stomach pain, no diarrhea.”
the maternal gut microbiome provided the largest contribution of transmitted strains. It was also found that maternal gut strains were more likely to adapt and persist in the infant gut compared with those acquired from other sources.
Several startups and large pharmaceutical companies are doing important work to advance microbiome-related treatments.
But there are still many questions, as the FDA workshop made clear. Here are three big ones: How can we ensure that the bacteria included in living drugs won’t contribute to the spread of antibiotic resistance or virulence genes? What are the appropriate assays to ensure the quality of a living drug that will be used in clinical studies and, hopefully, in treatments? Can we ensure the manufacturing process will create consistent products? The industry must answer these correctly before the FDA will approve living drugs.
Fecal transplants, which are inherently variable mixtures of undefined microbial composition, are no longer the only way to deliver health-promoting microbes to people who need them. Advances in basic science are positioning researchers to use more rigorous and systematic approaches to harnessing the power of the microbiome.
The company I lead, Vedanta Biosciences in Cambridge, Mass., and others are working to develop drugs that consist of carefully defined consortia of bacteria that have been shown to work together to fight off pathogens or to stimulate immune responses via the gut.
There will likely be many approaches to doing this. At Vedanta, we select strains of bacteria to include into possible drugs from a collection of tens of thousands of pure single-strain cultures. Once we have identified the strains we believe will work best together, we grow them separately in growth chambers called fermentors — no fecal donations needed. After extracting the bacteria from their fermentors, we freeze-dry them into stable powders, mix the powdered strains together, and pack the mixture into capsules.
Swallowing such a capsule releases the assemblage of helpful bacteria into the gut, where they are awakened from hibernation. As they colonize the gut and begin fitting in with the existing microbial ecosystem, they can help remodel the patient’s microbiome, creating a more resilient ecosystem better able to fight infections. The right mixtures can also manipulate the immune system in the intestine, either to tone it down (to help those with inflammatory bowel diseases or food allergies) or to rev it up (to help potentiate cancer immunotherapies and vaccines).
"the Tharu, the Raute, the Raji and the Chepang -- are longtime residents of the Himalayan foothills, with similar languages, cultural practices and ancestry. Where the four diverge is in their dietary history: The Tharu have practiced agriculture for the past 250 to 300 years; the Raute and the Raji have practiced agriculture for the past 30 to 40 years; and the Chepang are hunter-gatherers. The study found that the composition of the gut microorganisms, or gut microbiome, of each population differed based on whether and how long ago it had departed from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle."
FMT successfully treats colitis brought on by immune checkpoint inhibitor anti-cancer drugs:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-018-0238-9
That's interesting, Bill. Thanks. Somehow i fully expected those in tribes or more remote areas to have healthier gut flora. My Crohn's is now at the point where i need surgery.... again!
Gates’ interest in digestion goes beyond the disgusting and debilitating kinds of bacteria in our systems. The billionaire investor recently said he thinks we can revamp the inner workings of our guts by seeding the microbial colonies that live inside us.
“One thing that people are not expecting a breakthrough in that I’m quite optimistic we will get a breakthrough in is understanding nutrition,” Gates said during a conversation last week at the 92nd Street Y in New York. He thinks hacking the microbiome is the way to do it.
This new study prospectively examined the fecal microbiota in adult CD patients with changing or stable disease course over time.
It concludes that while CD patients have an altered microbiota, quote: "The altered microbiota composition and stability in CD was neither associated with disease activity nor long-term disease course, questioning its involvement in the development of an exacerbation".
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30810207/
In a new study, “Long-Term Benefit of Microbiota Transfer Therapy in Autism Symptoms and Gut Microbiota,” published in Scientific Reports, Arizona State University researchers Rosa Krajmalnik-Brown, James Adams and lead author Dae-Wook Kang demonstrate long-term beneficial effects for children diagnosed with ASD through a revolutionary technique known as Microbiota Transfer Therapy (MTT), a special type of fecal transplant originally pioneered by Australian gastroenterologist Thomas Borody. Remarkably, improvements in gut health and autism symptoms appear to persist long after treatment.
Hmm, i'm really Aspberger's. Another reason for them to hurry up with fecal transplant. Thanks, Wildbill. Mind, gonna have to try that cbd with thc as I am pretty sure I have cancer now. Ladies cancer, btw. I'm researching like mad at the moment. I'm in the UK, I've never had any luck with my health. I've just sent off for some that has a 16.5% thc, I hope it helps.
I've always wanted to try FMT. Is it still only used for Cdiff? Anyway we can do this without getting government or doctor approval?
Wow, Wild Bill. Thanks for all your research. I'm in the San Francisco Bay area and am actively seeking an FMT donor.
So this is my idea:
A group of us in the San Francisco Bay Area (or other parts of California) can "share" our donors. That way each of us can have more bacterial diversity. All of us need to have a healthy donor who is expertly and verifiably screened. We would pay a specified amount for each "donation".
If this works out, and we recruit more donors, we can invite other people to join who really need FMTs. Let's help each other! I'd love to hear your feedback. Let's start a movement... so to speak.
FDA warns on FMT:
https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/safety-availability-biologics/important-safety-alert-regarding-use-fecal-microbiota-transplantation-and-risk-serious-adverse
- Two immunocompromised adults who received investigational FMT developed invasive infections caused by extended-spectrum beta-lactamase (ESBL)-producing Escherichia coli (E.coli). One of the individuals died.
- FMT used in these two individuals were prepared from stool obtained from the same donor.
- The donor stool and resulting FMT used in these two individuals were not tested for ESBL-producing gram-negative organisms prior to use. After these adverse events occurred, stored preparations of FMT from this stool donor were tested and found to be positive for ESBL-producing E. coli identical to the organisms isolated from the two patients.
well it would be saline which is a defined concentration of salt water as far as I recall. I forget the details but too much salt and that could negatively affect things perhaps. You can make saline yourself though, and generally it just gets mixed with the stool and yes you should do it in a freezer bag to limit exposure to oxygen.why can't the donor just drop their stool directly into a bath of salt water? and then that would be put directly in a baggie.
You see it isn't that simple when you read the study below reporting FMT being safe in immunocompromised patients in 2016. There were so many variables as to why one of those patients died but most importantly the donor must be screened to some degree and healthy beyond all measures we cannot conclude all FMTs are going to kill people when so many have been done at this point in the tens of thousands now for c diff since it was approved.
A fecal-transplant patient has unexpectedly died just as the FDA is deciding the future of the unconventional procedure.
The donor for the patient who died was carrying antibiotic-resistant bacteria called extended-spectrum beta lactamase–producing Escherichia coli, which normally do not sicken healthy people but can be fatal in patients with already weakened immune systems, like in this recent case.
The role of this bacterium doesn’t come as a huge surprise. OpenBiome, a nonprofit stool bank, already screens for ESBL-producing E. coli along with other antibiotic-resistant bacteria. But individual doctors can still rely on a relative of a patient or find other donors outside of stool banks, and screening practices differ. (OpenBiome did not provide the sample in the fatal case, and the FDA has not made public any further information about the donor or where the procedure was done.)
Ten IBS patients who did not respond to a 30-g transplant subsequently received a 60-g transplant into the duodenum via a gastroscope. Results: Seven patients (70%) responded to the 60-g transplant, with significant clinical improvements in the abdominal symptoms, fatigue and quality of life in 57%, 80% and 67% of these patients. The 60-g transplant also reduced the DI (dysbiosis index). Conclusion: FMT is an effective treatment for IBS. A high-dose transplant and/or repeated FMT increase the response rate and the intensity of the effects of FMT
On 29 May, a treasure trove of data from the US National Institutes of Health’s (NIH) Human Microbiome Project (HMP) was published. This set of studies, known as the integrative HMP (iHMP), explored the complex interactions between humans and their resident microbiomes during disease.
For example, the study confirmed the depletion of obligate anaerobic bacteria in IBD. Two of the major species affected, Faecalibacterium prausnitzii and Rosburia hominus, are the main components of preclinical-stage pipeline therapies for IBD from Nextbiotix (NBX-1650) and 4D Pharma PLC’s (Rosburix), respectively. F. prausnitzii in particular accounted for some of the strongest associations overall with IBD-related dysbiosis, including the downregulation of numerous enzyme classes. Interestingly, members of the Roseburia genus were closely associated with gut metabolites, bile acids and acylcarnitines in particular, that were found to be dysregulated in IBD dysbiosis and featured prominently in the multi-omics association network.
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/7/1630mice that received an FMT from obese donors had a significantly different microbiome compared to mice that received an FMT from lean donors. However, after 22 weeks, diet influenced the microbiome composition irrespective of donor body type, suggesting that diet is a key variable in the shaping of the gut microbiome after FMT.
Healio: What are some of the ways that you can try to influence the changing of the nomenclature?
Khoruts:
It’s part of the crusade. I publish a number of papers on various aspects of this treatment every year. I have pledged to not use the ‘FMT’ term in my own publications, and when I collaborate with other investigators, I insist on the same. At the minimum I try to acknowledge the ‘intestinal microbiota transplant’ term. I do the same in my talks. I have approached OpenBiome about it, and they are mulling it over.
However, I think the momentum will pick up once people start to experience its effects in their practice. Frankly, I would be perfectly fine if the term ‘microbiota’ continued to be used as originally intended. At least that would maintain accuracy. However, ‘fecal transplant’ is wrong and irritating, and most importantly it is potentially embarrassing, unpleasant, and offensive to patients.