Flagyl or 6mp

[polly13]

Hi everybody I am glad to report that lucy is doing well at the minute and has been for the past couple of months so it really is happy days all round.

I posted back in May that we had had the remicade conversation with the GI but that we had all decided to give the 6 mp a full 16 weeks to work before making any decisions and yes the 6 mp worked or did it.........................................

Lucy started to get better at around week 15 -16 of taking 6 mp which was two weeks after flagyll was brought back into the mix , stayed on flagyll for about 6 weeks, came off started to have some symptoms - runny stools, pail going to toilet and generally unwell. Stool sample showed campylobactor infection but I think symtoms ere more than that. Back on Flagyll and was on for it for 6 week and is now off it again and yes symptoms seem to be starting up again very minor at the moment - a little crying when going to the toilet and her bum is starting to look slightly red around the anus area... so is it possible that flagyll on its own is inducing remission.. has this happened to anybody. Athough she has taken flagyll on its own prior to starting 6mp and it had no effect. Jeez this is so complicated.
Thanks

 

[DustyKat]

Flagyl has both antibiotic and anti inflammatory properties so it is possible that it is having some effect in its own right...

In the treatment of mild to moderate active Crohn's disease, antibiotic therapy may be an acceptable alternative. Metronidazole (Flagyl) in a dosage of 10 to 20 mg per kg per day has demonstrated benefit in the treatment of ileocolitis and colitis, with most patients reporting clinical improvement and more than one half achieving remission.11 [Evidence level A: randomized controlled trial (RCT)] In addition to a metallic taste, disulfiram-like effect, and gastrointestinal upset, long-term use of metronidazole is known to cause peripheral neuropathy, and patients should be monitored.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2003/0815/p707.html

...as you can see from this older article antibiotics can and do play a role and likely played a larger role when choices were as great as they are now. My own son was on Flagyl for 6 months, 3 months pre op to keep things in check and 3 months post op as the Crohn's specialist subscribes to studies that show using Flagyl post op helps maintain remission for a longer period of time.

Dusty. xxx

 

[kiny]

Remicade is given before the antibiotic usually. That's what it was designed for, it was originally designed for people with infectious diseases that had so much inflammation that the priority was bringing the inflammation down because the antibiotics weren't working without having control of the inflammation, it just happens to work well for crohn.

The best results on crohn are the ones where they give remicade and then antibiotics, not the opposite. I think if you do the reverse there is also a higher chance of C difficile.

(another reason this isn't done is because if you give antibiotics before remicade, the chance that antibiotics work for maintainence therapy after remission has been achieved by remicade is much smaller, antibiotics use creates resistance, after a while the antibiotic will become ineffective)

The studies of antibiotics on their own are pretty disappointing, don't confuse the use of Flagyl and Cipro to stop abscess or other manifestations with the use for crohn, Flagyl for crohn without remicade is not more effective than a placebo many studies have shown, there's a study that shows it's somewhat effective together with azithromycin, but Flagyl on it's own isn't very effective if there is inflammation.

Rifabutin with clarithromycin and clofazimine is the only antibiotic therapy that seems to work on it's own. But again they don't know if it's because of the antibiotic properties or because clofazimine is anti-inflammatory.

All the others antibiotics do work, but they only work after something like remicade, to stay in remission, they don't work to put someone in remission because the pathogen (and if you use antibiotics you agree there is a pathogen, otherwise it's ineffective by default), take advantage of the fact there is inflammation, and throwing antibiotics on mycobacteria before bringing the inflammation down is ineffective.

 

[bjg]

fLAGYL iv IS WHAT i GET WHEN IN HOSPITAL. iTS A GOOD MEDICINE. BJG

 

[AZMOM]

I remember Claire's GI talking about these kids susceptibility to GI infection, like C Diff and others. So everytime a flare started, he always ruled all that out. We definitely did the flagyl route for the C Diff - successfully thank goodness. We also did the Florastor probiotic at the same time (per Doc's orders) to try to help balance the health bacteria. Has your doctor talked at all about using a probiotic while on the antibiotic? Seemed like an oxymoron to me at the time but it worked.......

I hope things are looking up by the time you read this!

J.

 

[izzi'smom]

It's important also to continue the probiotic after the antibiotic is done...from what I understand often times the antibiotic is wiping out all of the bacteria (including the bacteria in the probiotic you are taking). Continuing to take the probiotic after the antibiotic speeds up the reintroduction of good bacteria (plus it may help IBD symptoms all on its own...studies on that differ)

 

[bjg]

azmom, YEP... PROBIOTICS, mct oil, YOU GET IT AT SPECIALTY pHARMACY. iT GIVES NEUTRITION THAT WILL ABSORB IN JEJUNEM. i HAD FEDDING TUBE THERE TIL, IT BURST. mAJOR SURGERY CAN'T HAVE NOW. nISSEN fUNDOPLICATION STOPS BAD BACTERIA IN STOMACH FROM REFUXING INTO LUNGS. i HAD PEUMONIA EVERY YEAR, CONSTANT COUGH, TOLD IT WAS bRONCHITIS. kIDNEY dOCTOR FOUND THE BACTERIA BY CULTURE, SO i HAD TO HAVE nISSEN AS NO REFLUX MEDS WORKED. BACK TO NUTRITION...mct OIL FORMULA OF MEDIUM CHAIN TRYGLERIDES THAT WILL ABSORB.

 

[bjg]

izzi's MOM. gOD BLESS YOUR DEAR IZZIE, SHE IS ADORABLE. a j-TUBE IN JEJUNEUM.. YOU CAN GET A FLOPPY ONE, JUST CLAMP IT OFF AND GO LIVE LIFE...IT GUARANTES NUTRITION. DOES HER SMALL BOWEL NOT ABSORB? mct oil, MEDIUM CHAIN TRYGLICIRIDES WORKS, MIX WITH ANY FOOD. bEST FIBER FOR KIDS IS bENEFIBER..NO TASTE AT ALL..EVEN SPRINKLED ON A SANDWHICH. PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW SHE IS DOING. mY GRANDSON DIDN'T GET DIAGNOSED TIL 15. hUGS AND SINCERE CARE. BJG

 

[bjg]

:rosette2:

azmom, YEP... PROBIOTICS, mct oil, YOU GET IT AT SPECIALTY pHARMACY. iT GIVES NEUTRITION THAT WILL ABSORB IN JEJUNEM. i HAD FEDDING TUBE THERE TIL, IT BURST. mAJOR SURGERY CAN'T HAVE NOW. nISSEN fUNDOPLICATION STOPS BAD BACTERIA IN STOMACH FROM REFUXING INTO LUNGS. i HAD PEUMONIA EVERY YEAR, CONSTANT COUGH, TOLD IT WAS bRONCHITIS. kIDNEY dOCTOR FOUND THE BACTERIA BY CULTURE, SO i HAD TO HAVE nISSEN AS NO REFLUX MEDS WORKED. BACK TO NUTRITION...mct OIL FORMULA OF MEDIUM CHAIN TRYGLERIDES THAT WILL ABSORB.

 

[bjg]

eVERYONE FOLIC ACID SO IMPORTANT. AFFECTS HOMOCYSTIEN LEVEL. NORMAL REFERANCE RANGE 8, MINE WAS 38.5 WALKING TIME BOMB FOR STROKE. ITS IN RANGE NOW DUE TO FOLBIC PRESCRIPTION OF FOLIC ACID AND OTHERS. TAKE FISH OIL TOO. OH, SCRIPT VITAMIN RENA-VITE TOO. TRULY HELPS. bEST dOCTOR ON aLABAMA, mISSISSIPPI COAST IS aLFRED mCnAIR. THEY HELICOPTER HIM TO tULANE MEDICAL SCHOOL IN nEW oRLEANS TO TEACH. hAD HIS OWN SURGERY CLINIC, dIGESTIVE hEALTH IN oCEAN sPRINGS,mS. HE SOLD..CALLED OCEAN sPRINGS hOSPITAL NOW. BJG

 

[bjg]

Confused, discouraged.

KINY, NO ONE HAS EVER PRESCRIBED REMICADE FOR ME OR GRANDSON. ALLERGIC TO CIPRO AND REGLAN,ERYTHOMYCIN,PENNICILLIAN, NUBAIN. GIVEN XIFAXIN FROM usa dOC' FOR BACTERIAL OVERGROWTH, WHERE THEY MAKE YOU BLOW IN BAG FOR BREATH TEST OF BACTERIA. ONLY ANTIBIOTIC I CAN HAVE NOW IS CLINDAMYCIN, TAKE CARAFATE SUSPENSION TO COAT COLON. i FORGOT , ADVERSE REACTION TO THE BACTERIAL MED FOR OVERGROWTH..IT WAS XIFAXIN.:rosette2:

 

[bjg]

kiny, no one has ever prescribed remicade for me or grandson. Allergic to cipro and reglan,erythomycin,pennicillian, nubain. Given xifaxin from usa doc' for bacterial overgrowth, where they make you blow in bag for breath test of bacteria. Only antibiotic i can have now is clindamycin, take carafate suspension to coat colon. I forgot , adverse reaction to the bacterial med for overgrowth..it was xifaxin.:rosette2:

"keep helping us with your input" bjg

 

[bjg]

Bjg

pOLLY;S MOM. LIDOCAINE TWO PERCENT GEL ON RECTUM WORKS WONDERS. WITHOUT IT i SCREAM LIKE IN LABOR.

 

[izzi'smom]

ty bjg! Izz has large intestine disease...no problems with nutrition, just inflammation. We are practically asymptomatic at this time...riding the tide. TY for the well wishes!

 

[kiny]

There's something else I forgot to mention about Flagyl, flagyl is often not enough on it's own to have a significant impact on a bacteria, it seems straightforward to say that after Flagyl you just us another antibiotic or add another antibiotic to it. It's not htat simple some say, since bacteria are able to adapt, they have noticed that patients treated with Flagyl react less to other antibiotics because the strain has adapted to Flagyl.

So if you take Flagyl alone, without having gotten remicade or another antibiotic together with Flagly, you might predispose yourself to making other antibiotics useless.

A lot of people talking about Flagyl or antibiotics say it worked the first time but not the second or third.

Borody talks about this here:

"Many patients also have previous exposure to metronidazole (Flagyl). What is little known is that Metronidazole has activity against dormant forms of mycobacteria1,2. Many patients with Crohn's have been exposed previously to Flagyl, and there is a remote possibility that pre-treatment in the past with Metronidazole may make Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis infections more difficult to eradicate. This is speculation, but needs to be kept in mind. "