The cloning of our food supply

[David]

I'm an organic farmer. I have a little 2 acre farm I'm working to develop for my family in an effort to raise around 85% of our own food. I've been learning a ton and it is fascinating. One interesting thing is the cloning of our food supply. What do I mean by this? We don't get diversity. We all eat the exact same thing over and over and over again. How so?

- Do you like Hass avocados? Every single one is a genetic clone via grafting from an original tree.
- Do you like navel oranges? Same story.
- Cavendish (the store bought) bananas? Same story.

Over and over again farmers use cloned varieties of plants because they know what they'll get from it. There is very little diversity to our food supply. We eat the same things over and over and over again. And there are no longer seasons. You can get everything year round.

Any thoughts on if this might be confusing our immune systems? Maybe some bacteria have evolved to somehow take advantage of this monotonous diet. Or could it be causing other issues?

 

[rollinstone]

Very interesting

 

[LittleChloe]

We buy a lot of our fruits and vegetables organic. Are they cloned also?

 

[GutlessWonder86]

from what little I've read, it's best to eat organic that hasn't been contaminated by pesticides or foods that are genetically altered. This is especially for folks like me who have the genetic disorder MTHFR. (fyi: not all ppl with this are prone to blood clots, it depends on what's found on your blood work up).

 

[Jennifer]

The nutrients in the fruit or vegetable depend on the soil, water and amount of sun the plant gets. I have to ask David. What are we missing out on in a misshapen banana?

 

[rygon]

I think the problem is we are eating the same variety. These arent necessarily the tastiest, but more often than not the easiest to grow, less prone to disease, and the most consistent appearance.

As David said, you get these all year round as well. There's no such thing is seasons anymore, "fresh" food can be kept for months before entering the supermarket.

 

[xX_LittleMissValentine_Xx]

This is interesting. My thoughts on bacteria would be something like how they will be evolving and the food not. So they might be surviving more, so more ending up inside us and causing problems.

 

[Susan2]

This is a bit off topic - sorry David - but take a stand and eat fruit and vegetables only in season. One thing that I love about stone fruit (in season here at the moment) is that the stone fruits are too fragile to store, and even to transport far, so you only get them in season and fresh. We have lost the expectation, and then delight, at things like strawberries and asparagus. We want everything all year and so lose out on all counts.

 

[David]

I apologize, I didn't explain this very well.

Rather than plants, let me use an example of a cow if they were doing the same thing with a cow as they are plants. They would take a part of a cow and grow it into a whole new cow that was identical to the original cow. They would then have these identical cows in field after field around the world and everytime you ate beef, you'd be eating the same cow over and over. All your life because everyone likes a very specific size and flavored cow so that's what farmers have to produce.

Organic has nothing to do with it. I'm an organic grower and I have the same Hass avocado that is grown by everyone else around the world. I have the same Valencia orange grown by everyone around the world. I have the same Cavendish banana grown by everyone around the world. The plants are evolving anymore with subsequent generations as they're the same as the previous generations. And we're not getting much diversity.

Yes, soil conditions and available nutrients, in large part determine much of the nutrient status and health of the plant and subsequent fruit they provide us. But the genetics will be the same.

Now, all of this may very well not matter in the slightest to our health. Or it may, I don't know. I just thought it'd be interesting to discuss.

 

[David]

It plays into the topic Susan, nothing to apologize for

Even those stone fruit you're buying are VERY LIKELY clones and the same ones you've eaten year after year, just like everyone else.

In organic farming, we practice something called, "crop rotation" where you don't plant the same thing in the same area in succession. There's a variety of reasons for this, but let me provide one example. One area of my garden was planted with tomatoes. They died really early and when I pulled up the plants, I discovered why. Something called a Root Knot Nematode had killed them off. If I were to plant tomatoes there again this year, they'd likely die a fast death as the nematodes are alive and well in the soil. So instead, I will plant something that doesn't feed the nematodes so that they die off. In addition, if this was a natural ecosystem, maybe one or two of the tomato plants would have become slightly resistant to the nematodes and would have seeded themselves and grown again in the future and their offspring would likely be more resistant to the nematodes.

As we all know far too well, gut flora is EXTREMELY important. But not only do we not do crop rotation (seasonal eating), we also eat the exact same plant over and over and over again. Whatever is in our gut is getting exactly what it's used to getting. We're feeding those metaphorical nematodes everything they could wish for, everything they've evolved to flourish on in our gut "soil". And if our guts are unhealthy, maybe that's part of the reason why.

 

[jac521]

Is what you are referring to called "genetically modified" food, or is that something else?

jac521

 

[rygon]

I know crop rotation still exists in open fields in the UK at least, as there is always something different growing near me. Although im not sure for indoor growing.

I thought the main reason for all year round crops was the way they store it nowadays, not because they grow it all year long?

Dont we have self pollinatng plants as well? Im assuming these will be clones, yet still natural

 

[David]

Is what you are referring to called "genetically modified" food, or is that something else?

It's not genetically modified food in the manner everyone is thinking of. Though it is genetic modification. Well a lack of genetic modification. One example of how it works:

1. Long ago an avocado tree was grown from seed. The fruit this tree bore was absolutely delicious, the tree was healthy, and all the characteristics of the fruit were good.

2. The owner of that tree then got a bunch of little avocado trees that were maybe 1.5-2 feet tall. He gut the top off of those trees and took a branch from that original tree I described in number 1 and "grafted" it. That tree, in essence, became the tree outlined in number 1. It was basically cloned. And that new tree could then provide branches for new clones in the future.

3. The farmer named that tree Hass avocado.

This is true for just about every named fruit you buy in the store. You don't buy, "Apples". You buy, "Pink Lady Apples". You don't buy avocados. You buy, "Hass Avocados". You don't buy grapefruit. You buy, "Ruby Red Grapefruit".

 

[David]

I thought the main reason for all year round crops was the way they store it nowadays, not because they grow it all year long?

Dont we have self pollinatng plants as well? Im assuming these will be clones, yet still natural

Sometimes it's a matter of storage, yes. Other times it's because seasons are different around the globe. When a fruit isn't growing in one area of the world because of the season, it IS growing in another and it is then shipped to areas it wouldn't be available in otherwise.

Many plants are not, "true to seed". For example, if you take a Hass avocado (which is self pollinating) and plant one of the seeds you get, you will not get a tree that produces Hass avocado. The fruit may be better, but much more likely, they will be inferior. This is why farmers graft Hass avocados in droves. Often plants are true to seed. For example, heirloom tomatoes. If I plant a Black Valencia tomato and save some seeds, the plants I plant will have most of the characteristics of the original mother plant. However, there are always little evolutionary jumps going on. And over time, a farmer would save seeds from the strongest plants with the best fruiting characteristics. That way that original Black Valencia continues to evolve to the changing conditions at that farmers specific location. Everything from soil to pests to diseases. But the vast majority of farmers and gardeners no longer do that. Most just buy seed from the big companies and there isn't that all important evolution of the plant on a local scale going on.

 

[xX_LittleMissValentine_Xx]

In terms of digestion, by the time the food is in our gut it is sugars, proteins, fats, vitamins minerals etc. So I don't really see how it being the same food consumed each time would make a difference to that and cause problems.
But like I said before about the competition with bacteria, could have something to do with it.

 

[David]

LMV:

1. I wonder if our immune systems come into play with this. That our immune systems see the EXACT same food over and over and over again, especially when we have a disrupted immune response, if they might be mistaking some of these foods as harmful allergen.

2. Regarding your statement, what do you define as the gut and where does this complete breakdown of the food occur?

3. If the same proteins, fats, vitamins, minerals, etc as you outlined are being put through the intestinal tract on a regular basis, that means we're creating a very static food source for bacteria. Good? Bad? I don't know.

Again, I don't know if I believe any of this. I just thought it'd be an interesting topic What I do know is that messing with nature often has unintended ramifications down the line and we're definitely doing it on a huge scale with this.

 

[Ya noy]

We grow our veggies using "heirloom" seeds, which are not genetically altered. Heirloom Seeds also germinate, so the seeds from the veggies grown can be used for the next season's planting.

Warm climates such as Florida, the growing season has always been basically year round and in colder climates, a lot of veggies can be dried and/or stored underground.

 

[mnsun]

I get your drift, and I think there are a couple problems with the lack of diversity, or monoculture, and the focus on appearance/size/storage/taste aspects alone, with no regard to the nutritional composition of such creations.

I think the most widely known example of inbreeding's effects may involve wheat. People say through natural breeding the plant is huge and happens to have the side effect of higher concentrations of gliandin, which causes digestive problems, etc. I think it is safe to say that whether it be hybrids, GMOs or actual cloned meat (which is unregulated as far as I know), the corporations developing this stuff are not concerned with unintended health effects (much less with intended ones, but that is another long story). So such inbreeding could lead to high levels of proteins/allergens that could cause disease.

Another aspect of this lack of diversity leads to monoculture farming to the extreme. This could lead to widespread crop failure if a new virus/bacterium/pest/mineral deficiency goes unaddressed and decimates whole fields with specific genetic vulnerabilities. It's a big "what if", but just like fertilizers/pesticides/herbicides discourage crop rotation, the addition of inbred monocultured fields could add to the possibility of these specific genetic vulnerabilities.

That's not to mention environmental adaptation problems of most hybrids, etc. Some heirlooms are more acclimatized to weather/soil changes.

 

[Jennifer]

The plants are evolving anymore with subsequent generations as they're the same as the previous generations.

Assuming you meant to say "aren't evolving anymore," do you have proof that mutations are not possible with clones?

 

[Catherine]

I grow heirloom tomatoes, the seeds from my tomatoes are not always the same as the mother plant.
This because I grow six or seven types of tomatoes and they cross with each other.

When you grow a seed from a grated tree, resulting plant is the same as root stock and the root stock is chosen because it produces the best roots not fruit.

 

[Beach]

I suspect that many of us are wonderfully adaptive with changes in diets, and foods. To a degree we can see that when people switch to new diets such as low carb. For the first month the low carb diet can be difficult, with feelings of sluggishness and the low carb "flu". But the body eventually adapts, makings larger amounts of the enzymes needed to digest the new foods. Most people then thrives. The same can be seen with alcohol I suppose. The first time drinking a glass of wine might lead to light headiness for an hour or more. With more drinking, the body adapts.

Of course not everyone is capable of adapting. Some never are able to drinking alcohol, always being someone drunk after a single drink. Most people in the world are also lactose intolerant in their adulthood. Many people report having great difficulty with eating wheat to one degree or another.

A few months ago an interesting book I picked up was Spencer Well's "Pandora's Seed: The Unforeseen Cost of Civilization." Well's is a DNA researcher. He's been on the National Geographic channel of late talking about his work. What he has found with his research is how our new foods are causing a great deal of stress on our body - leading to what he suspects diseases not experienced greatly in the past. As he wrote, humans went through a great deal of stress when going from hunter gatherers to farmers. Today Well's believes something similar is occurring with our exposure to many new foods and chemicals.

I didn't agree with everything in the book, but thought it an interesting informative read.

http://www.amazon.com/Pandoras-Seed-Hunter-Gatherer-Holds-Survival/dp/0812971914/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

From Amazon's sight, a description of Well's writings.

Ten thousand years ago, our species made a radical shift in its way of life: We became farmers rather than hunter-gatherers. Although this decision propelled us into the modern world, renowned geneticist and anthropologist Spencer Wells demonstrates that such a dramatic change in lifestyle had a downside that we’re only now beginning to recognize. Growing grain crops ultimately made humans more sedentary and unhealthy and made the planet more crowded. The expanding population and the need to apportion limited resources created hierarchies and inequalities. Freedom of movement was replaced by a pressure to work that is the forebear of the anxiety millions feel today. Spencer Wells offers a hopeful prescription for altering a life to which we were always ill-suited. Pandora’s Seed is an eye-opening book for anyone fascinated by the past and concerned about the future.

 

[partyboy690]

Maybe the fact that we eat completely sanitised(to an extent) food might have something to do with it. When you buy apples from a supermarket you are getting clean fruit, whether organic or not you are getting completely clean fruit. When you eat fruit straight from the source there is no guarantee that the fruit is clean and bacteria free so you could eat a relatively sanitised apple one minute and get a bacteria ridden apple the next time. Where I think this is relevant is in regards to Crohn's being an immune disease, whether its overactive, underactive or any other theory out there. The general consensus seems to settle on an immune related response. Maybe with the lack of diversity of bacteria we are taking in through our food is creating an irregular immune response to some of the natural gut flora due to one microbe dominating our gut over another. Maybe to have a balanced gut you need competition in the gut. Think of all the refridgeration and cleaning practices and cooking practices we employ that completely santise our food(not just fruit too, meat also) this will reduce the likelihood of us ingesting a more diverse range of bacteria thus allowing one or maybe a handful of particular microbes to dominate our bowels which in turn might elicit our immune system into action. I might be talking absolute bollocks but I think it sounds semi intelligent :ybiggrin:

 

[mnsun]

The following resonates with the thread topic. Not sure how badly this viral Gene VI affects humans (maybe thorough tests will now be allowed?), but it definitely has the ability to mutate the allergen content of plants. I'm pretty sure GMO peas were pulled due to allergens. Soy allergies seem to be up also.

Naturalnews posted:
"European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) has uncovered that most GMOs in commercial use today contain a hidden viral gene that appears to be unsafe for human consumption."

"In the course of analysis to identify potential allergens in GMO crops, the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) has belatedly discovered that the most common genetic regulatory sequence in commercial GMOs also encodes a significant fragment of a viral gene," explains Independent Science News (ISN) about the discovery.

"Entitled: "Possible consequences of the overlap between the CaMV 35S promoter regions in plant transformation vectors used and the viral gene VI in transgenic plants", the landmark report highlights that fact that 54 of the 86 GMO traits currently approved for use, or roughly 63 percent, contain a strange viral gene known as "Gene VI" that researchers have found alters the normal function of crops."

"Since natural crops do not possess Gene VI, they are not susceptible to the same viral infections as are GMOs that contain it. According to ISN's analysis of the function of Gene VI, the genetic defect not only facilitates the assembly of potentially deadly viruses in plant tissue, but it also suppresses natural anti-pathogenic defenses, making crops, and potentially the humans that eat them, more susceptible to disease."

Be sure to read the entire ISN report on the study here:
http://independentsciencenews.org

You can also read the study itself here:
http://www.landesbioscience.com/journals/gmcrops/2012GMC0020R.pdf

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/038998_GMO_crops_viral_gene_organ_damage.html#ixzz2KExL0JKE