Ketogenic diets, any risks?

[Crohn2357]

I've been doing a somewhat extensive calculation on the carbohydrate compositions and energy values of various "safe carb" sources I've eaten so far, based on each of their different effects on my health on different quantities in different times. To find out how much carbohydrate I should consume.

Going low carb, for my case, was a wrong move. Due to my extremely restricted diet, I don't have enough fat sources to consume, so it's not really possible for me to reach ketosis. What happens in my case is that instead of using fat, my body uses protein as the primary energy source. It's a common pitfall in keto diets; but in my case it's more or less inevitable. I need carbs to be my main source of energy, this much is clear to me.

I found out that I need to eat around 200 grams of carbs in a day, in order to increase my blood pressure (this is my hypothesis; but it's well known that low carb diets lower blood pressure through different mechanisms), my energy, and my weight.

This quantity is compatible with the suggestions of the leading paleo websites.

I should be getting 900 calories from the carbs I eat.

I had reduced my carb intake in the first place because it worsened the problems associated with low blood pressure for me. It's because when one eats a meal, large volumes of blood goes directly to the GI system, and this, in turn increases the severity of the low bp problems. It doesn't cause a problem if your blood pressure is not low; it's when it's low that it causes problems...

Now, what I'm going to do:
1- Eat more salt consistently.
2- Drink even more water.
3- Eat more carbs (around 200 grams in a day)

Let's see what's going to happen.

 

[Crohn2357]

Feeling better since yesterday. Increasing the salt intake gave me a much longer duration of the feeling of fullness. I also urinate more, and have more energy - though not quite the quality I want it to be yet... I'll wait patiently.

hugh, do you monitor your blood pressure? If so, how's it?

Another question: do you feel exhausted after eating white rice? Heart palpitations? Even a little, distinct from your experiences with the other carbs?

I hypothesized that my reaction to white rice in particular may be related to its high glycemic index. Not sure, but I don't have any other explanation.

Another thing: Whenever I eat chicken, I get extremely sleepy. I've read that it's the L-tryptophan in the chickens that causes this issue. I promised myself to never eat chicken again haha... It has such a powerful effect. A curious thing.

Edit: I wonder if there is any way to counter this effect of rice?

Maybe the exhaustive effects of eating rice has always been related to my low blood pressure. Maybe, now that I'm eating more salt, I will handle it better. I'll have to try it out.

 

[hugh]

blood pressure fine at regular dr. visits....
I'm fine with rice, but don't eat a lot of it (have large amount and then none for a week...)

So, i'm guessing the problem isn't the glycemic index, it's the glycemic load (GI x quantity)

Smaller amounts of rice with more fat will buffer absorption.

If it were me i would try...
- rice dishes where the rice is fried in fat/oil before adding water (pilau, risotto, etc)
- smaller amounts and eat with fatty lamb,

might help, might not.....

this is interesting, (not really related but interesting) it's doing the rounds at the moment..
- cooking rice and refrigerating increases the amount of resistant starch which is a good thing, but apparently this goes even further, decreasing GI and upping RS even further.....
might work with other fats, but still needs refrigeration to turn to RS
Simple cooking changes make healthier rice
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/simple-cooking-changes-make-healthier-rice/8386.article
Scientists Discover a Simple Way to Cook Rice That Could Halve The Calories
https://www.sciencealert.com/scient...ay-to-cook-rice-that-could-halve-the-calories

 

[Crohn2357]

Smaller amounts of rice with more fat will buffer absorption.

If it were me i would try...
- rice dishes where the rice is fried in fat/oil before adding water (pilau, risotto, etc)
- smaller amounts and eat with fatty lamb,

I've tried these, no help.

this is interesting, (not really related but interesting) it's doing the rounds at the moment..
- cooking rice and refrigerating increases the amount of resistant starch which is a good thing, but apparently this goes even further, decreasing GI and upping RS even further.....
might work with other fats, but still needs refrigeration to turn to RS
Simple cooking changes make healthier rice
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/...e/8386.article
Scientists Discover a Simple Way to Cook Rice That Could Halve The Calories
https://www.sciencealert.com/scienti...e-the-calories

yeah, that's interesting I'll keep in mind.

I think I may have found another cause for my low blood pressure.

I've been taking propolis tincture for more than a year now. I've suspected it might be causing this issue, and turns out that it really has that kind of effect.

http://thenaturalshopper.com/resources/propolis/propolis-for-high-blood-pressure.html

https://www.honeycolony.com/article/top-10-health-benefits-of-propolis/

“2. Propolis Lowers Blood Pressure
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22471835 [Role of propolis on tyrosine hydroxylase activity and blood pressure in nitric oxide synthase-inhibited hypertensive rats.]
Nitric oxide is a very important substance for healthy hearts.
The inner lining of your blood vessels use nitric oxide to signal the surrounding smooth muscles to relax, thus resulting in vasodilation (the widening of blood vessels) and increased blood flow.
Reduction in the bioavailability of nitric oxide plays a significant role in the development of high blood pressure. Without it, you’d have a heart attack. There is an enzyme called Tyrosine hydroxylase (or TH for short) that limits that amount of nitric oxide you can produce.
Researchers had a hunch that propolis could decrease TH and in turn, lower blood pressure. So they took a bunch of rats and fed them something called nitro-l-arginine methyl ester for 15 days, to produce high blood pressure. They then fed the rats propolis for the last five days.
What they found after doing this was that propolis decreased TH activity in the rats. As a result, they suggested that propolis may help modulate blood pressure.”

I stopped taking propolis and won't take it for another two days, then I'll take a much lower dose of it. I'll see what's going to happen, will give you an update.

My hypothesis is that the reason why I get exhausted and get heart palpitations after eating rice is related to my low blood pressure. If I can solve this low bp issue, I think I may be able to eat rice without having these problems...

 

[Crohn2357]

BTW, have you tried L-Glutamine yet? I may try it next month after a resection surgery, wondering your experiences (if any).

 

[Crohn2357]

Whoa, just stumbled across these guys. They're eating their foods raw - even animal foods.

I'd like to eat my meat raw; but I'm afraid it would be dangerous to do so.

Edit - Here's a video on Youtube: My Raw Meat Breakfast. Interesting.

 

[hugh]

Whoa, just stumbled across these guys. They're eating their foods raw - even animal foods.

I'd like to eat my meat raw; but I'm afraid it would be dangerous to do so.

Edit - Here's a video on Youtube: My Raw Meat Breakfast. Interesting.

my view.... just no......
there are freaks and weirdos all over the internet,
we can digest raw meat and eating some of our meat raw may have advantages (vitamin content), and disadvantages (pathogens, less bio-availability)
and, i guess there are a small percentage that may do well on that diet but i'm sticking with the "fire made us human" theory[1]......

Three points are foremost -
1/ it seems to be a great weight loss strategy - making it harder to get nutrition from the food
2/ with our modern meat production, from grazing to slaughter to processing, the risks are much higher than when we would have killed something and eaten it fresh
3/ modern humans generally don't have the microbiome and associated immunity that hunter-gatherers would have had (or in some cases still have)

If you can trust the meat then go for it as a part of your diet and increase slowly, but this reminds me of a conversation that i had with an otherwise intelligent person who quite earnestly believed that being a bretharian was possible and his 'proof' was that he felt better if he skipped the odd meal.

If a little is good it does not follow that only that is better.

And, at the risk of offending, i would suggest that you might want to review everything else that you are currently doing and reconsider the possible consequences (like sodium and propolis) before adding another layer of confusion over the top.
I'm getting the impression that you (and most people looking for relief) are prone to a gung-ho approach ("I'lll take a lot of that and see what happens")

just my two cents.....

[1] The energetic significance of cooking
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248409001262
Why Fire Makes Us Human
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-fire-makes-us-human-72989884/

 

[Crohn2357]

my view.... just no......
there are freaks and weirdos all over the internet,
we can digest raw meat and eating some of our meat raw may have advantages (vitamin content), and disadvantages (pathogens, less bio-availability)
and, i guess there are a small percentage that may do well on that diet but i'm sticking with the "fire made us human" theory[1]......


[1] The energetic significance of cooking
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248409001262
Why Fire Makes Us Human
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-fire-makes-us-human-72989884/

I thought it was interesting; but I would never eat animal products raw, I don't even eat most of my veggies raw in fear of infection, and to a much lesser extent, because of the lower absorption rate. I think I should've made myself clear on that point. Though, I still find that subject (some people are eating raw meat) interesting, and I also wonder how the taste & texture of the food feels like that way; but no - I wouldn't try to find it out...

"Three points are foremost -
1/ it seems to be a great weight loss strategy - making it harder to get nutrition from the food
2/ with our modern meat production, from grazing to slaughter to processing, the risks are much higher than when we would have killed something and eaten it fresh
3/ modern humans generally don't have the microbiome and associated immunity that hunter-gatherers would have had (or in some cases still have)"


Those are valid points that I completely agree with.


"If you can trust the meat then go for it as a part of your diet and increase slowly, but this reminds me of a conversation that i had with an otherwise intelligent person who quite earnestly believed that being a bretharian was possible and his 'proof' was that he felt better if he skipped the odd meal.

If a little is good it does not follow that only that is better."


I wouldn't eat the meat of an animal uncooked even if I raised the animal myself.


"And, at the risk of offending, i would suggest that you might want to review everything else that you are currently doing and reconsider the possible consequences (like sodium and propolis) before adding another layer of confusion over the top.
I'm getting the impression that you (and most people looking for relief) are prone to a gung-ho approach ("I'lll take a lot of that and see what happens")

just my two cents....."

I'm not offended; I take this as a valuable word of caution - though I'd like you to say what do you think I may be doing wrong in cases of sodium and propolis. I'm assuming, you're saying that I should more thoroughly and seriously consider the possible health consequences of the recent changes in my salt intake and propolis dosage (or, taking propolis in general) and do more research before experimenting, and change one thing at a time.

 

[hugh]

I'm not offended; I take this as a valuable word of caution - though I'd like you to say what do you think I may be doing wrong in cases of sodium and propolis. I'm assuming, you're saying that I should more thoroughly and seriously consider the possible health consequences of the recent changes in my salt intake and propolis dosage (or, taking propolis in general) and do more research before experimenting, and change one thing at a time.

There are three issues ( it's not that i think you are doing wrong or right.),
- firstly, there is the distinct possibility that a change anyone makes may lead to an improvement or a worsening of health, and that this may not manifest immediately.
Trying another supplement/exercise/food/medication to combat the unwanted effects of the original is not a path we want to head down so reviewing ALL the things currently being done (or being considered) to be aware of possible effects or interactions will be beneficial.
-secondly, making multiple changes at the same time (or even close to each other) makes it impossible to know what is responsible for improvement or decline.
-thirdly, large changes may upset a balance and cause a worsening before settling into an improvement,

 

[Crohn2357]

There are three issues ( it's not that i think you are doing wrong or right.),
- firstly, there is the distinct possibility that a change anyone makes may lead to an improvement or a worsening of health, and that this may not manifest immediately.
Trying another supplement/exercise/food/medication to combat the unwanted effects of the original is not a path we want to head down so reviewing ALL the things currently being done (or being considered) to be aware of possible effects or interactions will be beneficial.
-secondly, making multiple changes at the same time (or even close to each other) makes it impossible to know what is responsible for improvement or decline.
-thirdly, large changes may upset a balance and cause a worsening before settling into an improvement,

Thanks for writing these down. These are the basic principles of self-experimentation, and I actually knew I was being impatient and not following the right methodology with dealing this low blood pressure issue.

To me, it was obvious that I was not eating enough salt (regardless of the low bp) and this proved true after increasing my salt intake. The effects (other than on my blood pressure) of this change were just right and expected.

For propolis, I knew I've been taking high dose of it and I wanted to cut it down regardless of its effects on blood pressure, though I thought it would also increase my blood pressure and I wanted to get this quick.

But you're absolutely right, to be able to know what is causing what I should've followed the right method (the principles you've pointed out).

In regards to trying L-Glutamine in the future, my plan is to take it after a resection surgery (this is a recommended route) which is at least a month later.

About decreasing/increasing my carb intake so abruptly, yeah, you're right but when you think what you've been doing is wrong you have two choices: Either "correct" it suddenly, or, to change one parameter at a time in order to follow the right method, you just go with it for the time being.

In sum, I think it's a matter of impatience, your confidence on the changes you make, and how much you want to know of an effect of a change on your body (or, to say it more straight, how much you want to know what you are doing) and how much you just want to get a result without building a robust judgement from the elements of your experiment.

I appreciate the concern and the time you take to point out these principles as a note of caution. It made me reconsider what I've been doing, thank you.

 

[Crohn2357]

This is a useful infographic on salt (taken from here) in case anyone is interested:

Best way to know how much salt you eat in a day is to measure your salt intake with a teaspoon every meal one day.

 

[Crohn2357]

About a year ago I started to take propolis and it stopped my abdominal pain and rectal bleeding. It also decreased the severity and frequency of my migraines a little.

I knew I may get abdominal pain again after I stop taking it, and it is happening...

----- -----

Some time ago I pointed a thread in this forum to you that mentions the lead accumulation risk with drinking bone broth soup and eating the cooked bones.

Here is another one: http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=68753

It is obvious that the original study that started this debate is a terrible one; yet it makes me worried.

I wouldn't be worried if I was to drink the bone broth soup once in a year; but now that I'm not taking propolis, I'm planning to drink bone broth soups daily as a compensation for the absence of propolis.

I didn't go nuts over that study, I've been making and drinking bone broth soup since I read it, but it sure made me concerned, especially for the long term effects if I am to drink bone broth frequently.

I've read everything I can find about this debate (on paleo and non-paleo websites) but, still not sure. More and legitimate studies on this subject are urgently needed that's for sure.

The famous paleo websites (and forums) that wrote counter articles on that study don't sound convincing - which is adding to the concerns... On the one hand, the actual study is making it hard to discuss (and attach a special importance to) this issue because of the vagueness and the bad design of it; on the other hand, because of its rightly regarded beneficial effects, paleo followers have been drinking, using bone broth a lot and if the claims of lead contamination has truth in it, then this may have disastrous effects on people's lives.

This is a good talk about bone broth; but unfortunately it doesn't touch on the lead contamination issue. Nonetheless, I find the "mycoplasma" part at the 38th minute especially interesting.

We believe the body is not attacking itself, but is desperately trying to rid itself of disease-producing microbes that are not recognized by the scientific community.

--- --- --- ---

Take a look at this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4TvGt899Q

 

[Crohn2357]

hugh, you may like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhzV-J1h0do

A great talk on the history of cholesterol and related issues, given by a knowledgeable person.

***************** ***************** *****************

Edit: Here is a reddit post discussing the lead contamination issue, down below in the replies section you can see a link to the full text of the actual study.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/comments/4fda3k/bone_broth_high_levels_of_lead/

A counter article: http://tamararubin.com/2017/03/bone_broth/

More often than not “health-gurus” and “health bloggers” including some with MEDICAL credentials will (in their writing) attempt to diminish or discount the impact of the concentrated levels of lead found in bone broth.

* Lead bio-mimics calcium when absorbed by natural structures.
* Bones are high in calcium.
* That is why bones are a storehouse for lead (in all animals).
* If an animal is exposed to lead in their environment—from feed (many documented sources for contamination here), from soil, from tractors and other farm vehicles’ exhaust (yes, many of these – legally – still use leaded fuel!), from both modern and legacy paint and industrial finishes on farm equipment and buildings (yep, lead still legal in lots of “non-residential” paint as well!)— then their bones will absorb and accumulate this lead in the place of calcium.
* When you make broth from these bones (vs. from the meat of the animal) – be it a chicken or a cow or a pig, you are using the most leaded part of the animal to make the broth.
* The broth will pull all of the “nutrients” and “minerals” out of the bones and into the broth… and this includes lead.

There is no valid justification (not a single one) to intentionally concentrate lead in a single food source to add it to your diet. Just don’t do it. Make your broth out of the meat of the animal. Source your broth ingredients from known farms – where you have EVIDENCE that the farm does not use leaded gasoline (which, as stated above, is still legal to use in farm equipment) and does NOT have old lead painted farm buildings (it’s also perfectly legal for even organic farms to have old lead-painted buildings, vehicles, and industrial equipment!) and does NOT have soil that is lead contaminated from previous / legacy leaded pesticide use, and is NOT near a freeway or small airport that might have generated a lot of lead residue from leaded gasoline use [in the past for freeways and in the present for small airports (you guessed it – small planes still -legally- use leaded fuel!] that may have contaminated the soil.

Take a look at the comments section.

----------- ----------- -----------

It is said that long simmering process actually draws much more lead out of the bones than a short time cooking. In the early days (3-4 years ago) I used to cook the bones for 48 hours; then in this year I've found out I can cook them in pressure cooker for 5 hours and it would still be very gelatinous, so I've been doing that. Maybe this method is safer, but I really don't know.

 

[hugh]

About a year ago I started to take propolis....I knew I may get abdominal pain again after I stop taking it, and it is happening...

Is there a lower dose that works for you?
----- -----

Some time ago I pointed a thread in this forum to you that mentions the lead accumulation risk with drinking bone broth soup and eating the cooked bones.........[/QUOTE

who knows? needs a proper study, then I will take notice...

 

[Crohn2357]

"Is there a lower dose that works for you?"

There is, but for the sake of experiment I'm still not taking propolis. To see if my bp will get any better. No changes yet.

I went to an endocrinologist to check my adrenal glands, thyroids... Except from all the known bullshit ("your 'bad' cholesterol is high, your vit d level is high and this is toxic..."), blood tests showed no problems.

If my bp won't get any better, I will consult to a cardio doctor and then, if we still don't have a clue, a neurology doctor.

I'm thinking of reducing my dietary potassium intake. I've been eating a lot of green bananas and it might be contributing. Though my Na/K levels are fine, our bodies do an excellent job at maintaining a narrow serum range when it comes to electrolytes. My dietary potassium intake is definitely higher than the average person. I will eat other vegetables that do not have especially high levels of potassium.

About the broth issue: People claim that human beings have been making bone broth for a very long time and broth is a traditional food, no danger has come from it...

What this person wrote I think deserves attention because it sounds reasonable to me. Don't you think?
Continuous long term exposure to lead sounds scary. I mean I'm not done with bone broth, in fact, I just drank one big cup of it, and will continue making and drinking it, but the world (the soil, the plants...) has changed so much and so rapidly after the WW2, and the thought of ingesting environmental toxins is worrisome.

Is this a vegan propaganda? A capitalist conspiracy? I don't care.

This is definitely not something to be dismissed, but, because we don't have any other studies yet, we can't know... We can only speculate.

 

[hugh]

About the broth issue: People claim that human beings have been making bone broth for a very long time and broth is a traditional food, no danger has come from it...

Yeah, before we fucked everything up and contaminated the crap out of everything?

What this person wrote I think deserves attention because it sounds reasonable to me. Don't you think?

If you start with the assumption that the study is legit then , it sounds reasonable.
But is the study legit?
If we stopped eating everything mentioned in dodgy science papers then there wouldn't be much left. I get the best chicken carcases i can and will take my chances until more data comes out.

Continuous long term exposure to lead sounds scary. I mean I'm not done with bone broth, in fact, I just drank one big cup of it, and will continue making and drinking it, but the world (the soil, the plants...) has changed so much and so rapidly after the WW2, and the thought of ingesting environmental toxins is worrisome

IF the chicken is lead contaminated then it came from the feed, the water or the soil.

This is definitely not something to be dismissed, but, because we don't have any other studies yet, we can't know... We can only speculate..

yes, speculate we can.
that's the good thing about the internet,
-choose your side and look for blogs that support your view ;-)

 

[Crohn2357]

I'm fine with rice, but don't eat a lot of it (have large amount and then none for a week...)

So, i'm guessing the problem isn't the glycemic index, it's the glycemic load (GI x quantity)

Smaller amounts of rice with more fat will buffer absorption.

If it were me i would try...
- rice dishes where the rice is fried in fat/oil before adding water (pilau, risotto, etc)
- smaller amounts and eat with fatty lamb,

might help, might not.....

About an hour ago, while I was in a supermarket, your remarks about glycemic load came to my mind. I thought, what if it is true? What if I'm actually eating more than one serving. I've always thought I've been eating less than one serving in a meal.

So I bought a pack of jasmine rice, came to my house, did some calculations...

It turns out, I've been eating more than one serving in a meal. One serving of (uncooked, white) rice equals to 1/4 cup of rice, which is about 45-55 grams.
I eat 80 grams of rice in a meal. That's 64 grams of carbohydrates.

I'll try 1/4 cup of rice this time. Might work.

 

[InstantCoffee]

How much rice area you eating? There's also arsenic to consider https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqLsBxfsvHM

 

[Crohn2357]

Thanks for pointing out.

I eat one serving of jasmine rice in every meal. I mostly eat jasmine rice (imported from Thailand), sometimes I also eat sushi rice. These are known to have low arsenic levels. BTW, I never eat brown rice.

Another important factor is the water. I use a lab tested quality spring water for everything (cooking, drinking etc.).

Some notes from this website:

Brown rice has 80 percent more inorganic arsenic on average than white rice of the same type. Arsenic accumulates in the grain’s outer layers, which are removed to make white rice

White basmati rice from California, India, and Pakistan, and sushi rice from the U.S. on average has half of the inorganic-arsenic amount of most other types of rice.

You may be able to cut your exposure to inorganic arsenic in any type of rice by rinsing raw rice thoroughly before cooking, using a ratio of 6 cups water to 1 cup rice, and draining the excess water afterward. That is a traditional method of cooking rice in Asia. The modern technique of cooking rice in water that is entirely absorbed by the grains has been promoted because it allows rice to retain more of its vitamins and other nutrients. But even though you may sacrifice some of rice's nutritional value, research has shown that rinsing and using more water removes about 30 percent of the rice's inorganic arsenic content.

A comment (what he says is true):

The best rices are Basmati & Jasmine from California, India, and Thailand. They have the lowest Ia (arsenic) levels.

From this website.

Aromatic rice seem to be lower in general, such as Jasmine and Basmati. Imported Jasmine and Basmati rice are typically significant lower in arsenic than most US grown rice. Thailand rice is not only found to be low in arsenic in the latest testing, but last I heard they had banned genetically modified rice from their country, another important aspect to rice eating to consider.

Again...

Look for rice grown in California and imported basmati and jasmine rices, which may have lower arsenic levels. A 2007 study in Environmental Health Perspectives, for example, found less arsenic in rice grown in California than in the southcentral U.S. Another paper found that basmati rice from India and Pakistan, as well as jasmine rice from Thailand, had the least arsenic. But other research has had contradictory results.

From the wikipedia article for rice:

Jasmine rice from Thailand and Basmati rice from Pakistan and India contain the least arsenic among rice varieties in one study.

The source for this claim :

“Until this all gets sorted out, consumers shouldn’t be overly concerned,” Duxbury says. Nevertheless, rice fanciers might note that both Duxbury and Meharg found basmati rice imported from India and Pakistan and jasmine rice from Thailand to contain the least arsenic.

Here is the U.S. Food and Drug Administration Analytical Results from Inorganic Arsenic in Rice and Rice Products Sampling September 2013. The levels vary a lot.

I'm going to find imported basmati rice.

 

[Crohn2357]

InstantCoffee, feel free to give further ideas on the rice, if you have any. I'd appreciate it.

Secondly, what's your take on the broth - lead contamination topic?

Do you drink bone broth?

 

[Crohn2357]

Soaking and rinsing the rice before cooking it reduces the arsenic content:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...hould-i-be-concerned-about-arsenic-in-my-rice
http://www.health.com/food/how-to-reduce-arsenic-in-rice
https://www.treehugger.com/green-food/how-cook-rice-remove-most-arsenic.html

 

[hugh]

Crohn2357,
This might interest you,
Robb wolf podcast about salt.....
https://robbwolf.com/2017/08/29/episode-371-dr-james-dinicolantonio-the-salt-fix/

 

[Crohn2357]

Thanks, I'll listen to it.

By the way, in the above post, the way they cook the rice to reduce the arsenic content is called "pasta method". From now on, I'll use this method.

Cooking rice with a substantial surplus of water that is thendiscardedreduc-es the arsenic content in rice by up to 70 per cent.
•As an individual consumer it is difficult to influence the intake of inorganicarsenic from food, since there are many sources. Obviously one way is to eatless rice and rice products, but for consumers who eat a good deal of rice aspart of meals or as a whole meal, the way the rice is cooked can also be signif-icant. When the rice is cooked in an excess amount of water, which is thendiscarded when the rice is cooked, the amount of arsenic in the rice is decreased by 40 to 70 per cent. In order to reduce exposure to arsenic, there istherefore good reason to inform that levels of arsenic in rice can be reduced ifthe rice is cooked in excess water that is then poured away when the rice isready. The study shows that simply rinsing the rice before cooking has nogreat effect on the level of inorganic arsenic in the rice. Cooking rice in such away that the water cooks in until the rice becomes dry does not affect the levelof inorganic arsenic in the rice.
•Information that the level of arsenic in rice can be affected by preparation isvery important for companies that produce rice products. Changing the pro-duction of rice products would probably have a considerably greater effect onarsenic exposure than the individual consumer’s preparation of rice. This isbecause exposure to arsenic comes not only from the rice that is cooked athome but also from many other types of products (such as rice snacks, ricedrinks and rice porridge).

https://www.livsmedelsverket.se/glo...dish-market-2015---part-3-risk-management.pdf

This chart shows an 80% reduction of arsenic caused by the combination of soaking the rice and using "the pasta method" of cooking:

 

[Crohn2357]

Crohn2357,
This might interest you,
Robb wolf podcast about salt.....
https://robbwolf.com/2017/08/29/episode-371-dr-james-dinicolantonio-the-salt-fix/

hugh, this is a GREAT podcast. Thanks again for sharing with me.

 

[InstantCoffee]

InstantCoffee, feel free to give further ideas on the rice, if you have any. I'd appreciate it.

Secondly, what's your take on the broth - lead contamination topic?

Do you drink bone broth?

No opinion, not informed on the topic enough. I feel like I can get all the same benefits without the lead contamination risk from other sources though. Basically the same way I feel about rice. I'm gonna stick with oats.

 

[Crohn2357]

I feel like I can get all the same benefits without the lead contamination risk from other sources though.

What are those sources?

L-Glutamine? Collagen Hydrolysate?

I've thought the cross reactivity issue could be problematic. So I've always stayed away from it. But some research shows that if you're eating gluten free diet then it may not be an issue:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18224563
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16373275

The majority of non-celiac gluten sensitivity patients (93.2%) showed the disappearance of anti-gliadin antibodies of IgG class after 6 months of gluten-free diet; in contrast, 16/40 (40%) of celiac patients displayed the persistence of these antibodies after gluten withdrawal. In non-celiac gluten sensitivity patients anti-gliadin antibodies IgG persistence after gluten withdrawal was significantly correlated with the low compliance to gluten-free diet and a mild clinical response.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24524388

Be careful with wheat contamination.

------ ------ ------ ------

Edit: Here is a graphic showing some gluten cross-reactors:
https://thepaleomomcom-xt0mxgicgroc...03/The-Paleo-Mom-Gluten-Cross-Reactors-01.jpg

From: https://www.thepaleomom.com/gluten-...-youre-eating-gluten-even-after-giving-it-up/

------ ------ ------ ------

http://paleofoundation.com/19-gluten-cross-reactive-foods/

 

[Crohn2357]

"Better than wheat, worse (and more work to improve) than rice."

Says Mark Sisson.

Comment section has different opinions on oats.

This is Mark's article about rice.

 

[InstantCoffee]

His basis is demonizing phytates and the possibility of cross-reactivity.
Phytates, however, are not inherently bad as they have been linked to reduced incidences of digestive cancer.
https://www.youtube.com/user/NutritionFactsOrg/search?query=phytates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgihTBZrOvY

 

[hugh]

His basis is demonizing phytates and the possibility of cross-reactivity.
Phytates, however, are not inherently bad as they have been linked to reduced incidences of digestive cancer.
https://www.youtube.com/user/NutritionFactsOrg/search?query=phytates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgihTBZrOvY

One big problem with the internet is that you can find 'experts' with wildly conflicting views quoting scientific papers that seem to support their views.
I have a pretty low opinion of vegan propaganda, so NutriotionFacts.org is pretty low on my personal list of reliable information. I mean seriously, what else is a vegan gonna say?

As usual the truth is a bit more nuanced,
Phytates do interfere with nutrient absorption so if you are nutritionally chalanged you may do well to limit or avoid them. Having said that almost all 'antinutrients' can have a beneficial effect [1].
Like almost everything it is a 'U' shaped curve.
Somewhere between too much and too little, good luck working out what that is....
Personally, oats make me squirt from the wrong end so I don't eat them

[1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/096399699390069U

 

[InstantCoffee]

Vegans and paleo need to have a battle royale, I'll just assume the winners are right because their diet made them stronger. Both of them lean pretty strongly on conflicting studies.

Both oats and psyllium husks have the effect where they pull cholesterol to make bile and both have extremely positive effects on my digestion, can't explain it but I think there's something to it, and I don't think it's the fiber because plenty of other fiberous foods have no benefit, or are harmful to my digestion.

 

[Crohn2357]

hugh, I bought the L-Glutamine supplements.

Have you tried it yet? I understand that the dosage used for Crohn's Disease is higher (around 30 grams a day) than the doses used in the physical training area.

How much grams of l-glutamine would you (do you?) use in a day? For how long would you keep taking it?

Back to the neurotoxicity concerns...

Glutamine: A Trojan Horse in Ammonia Neurotoxicity
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lationship-with-ammonia-and-astrocytes.38680/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4714775/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11754523

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2566647

BTW, have you seen this new Cochrane review?

Currently there is insufficient evidence to allow firm conclusions regarding the efficacy and safety of glutamine for induction of remission in Crohn's disease. Data from two small studies suggest that glutamine supplementation may not be beneficial in active Crohn's disease but these results need to be interpreted with caution as they are based on small numbers of patients. This review highlights the need for adequately powered randomised controlled trials to investigate the efficacy and safety of glutamine for induction of remission in Crohn's disease.

 

[hugh]

Not something I have thought about too much.
Saw the review, but there is science to say it helps with leaky gut and digestive issues.
Bound to be many threads on the forum, haps on the interweb

 

[hugh]

hugh, I bought the L-Glutamine supplements.
Have you tried it yet? I understand that the dosage used for Crohn's Disease is higher (around 30 grams a day) than the doses used in the physical training area.
How much grams of l-glutamine would you (do you?) use in a day? For how long would you keep taking it?

ack to the neurotoxicity concerns..

If i were testing it on myself i would follow these guys advice to the letter.....

L-Glutamine: 7 Surprising Do’s and Don’ts for People with Leaky Gut & Autoimmunity
"Too much, too soon of any supplement can cause issues and L-Glutamine is no different. The best way to use this supplement is to slowly ramp the dosage up over a few weeks. This allows the body to grow comfortable and reduces the chances of overwhelm."
"Last reminder, if you experience any negative reactions, stop the supplement or reduce your dosage right away. More on why this happens below, but for now take a few days at a lower dosage, or off, and then try again. If you still react, then it’s probably not right for you at this time. "
https://scdlifestyle.com/2015/09/l-glutamine-7-dos-and-donts/

 

[Crohn2357]

Thanks. Instead of using it daily; I will use it if my intestines get worse, because of the neurotoxicity concerns.

The claims look incredible on the paper; but one important thing most of the times the paleo writers lack is discussing the counter arguments.

Neurotoxicity is a big deal, and I don't want to mess with it. I'll stick to drinking bone broth to heal my gut - it does a wonderful job; and it is probably safer, in terms of any kind of toxicity.

Primum non nocere.

 

[hugh]

I will use it if my intestines get worse, because of the neurotoxicity concerns.

Not sure the concerns are real, like many of these things. I'm sure it is a good theory there might not be much behind it....
"Conclusion
Intravenous glutamine in clinically relevant doses leaves cerebral glutamate unaffected. "
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-006-0375-3

The claims look incredible on the paper; but one important thing most of the times the paleo writers lack is discussing the counter arguments.

I'm not sure how many times the article I linked to warned to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble.. .

 

[Crohn2357]

"Conclusion
Intravenous glutamine in clinically relevant doses leaves cerebral glutamate unaffected. "
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-006-0375-3

I read the full text of that study. It would be much better if it were not done on patients with head trauma. This is not a reliable study to depend on for individuals with no brain trauma, like us.

From the Discussion:

The normal interstitial concentration of glutamate in the brain is less than 10 μmol/l [12]. Among the patients
studied, there was one clear outlier in interstitial glutamine
concentration, and in addition four patients had clearly elevated
concentrations of glutamate. However, these elevated
levels of glutamate were totally independent of intravenous
administration of glutamine, and they did not change over
time. High interstitial glutamate concentrations in individual
patients have been reported in most studies involving
interstitial glutamate concentration measurements in brain
injury patients [10, 11, 12, 13].

This is only one study, and they say there are no others. Still, better than nothing.

Not sure the concerns are real, like many of these things. I'm sure it is a good theory there might not be much behind it....

From the same text:

Case reports have been published in which high concentrations of
glutamate in the interstitial fluid adjacent to brain injury
were found in neurosurgical patients [10, 11, 12, 13]. It
has been suggested that a high concentration of glutamate
may be associated with cerebral swelling and a high
intracranial pressure (ICP). However, the mechanism
behind the possible relation between high interstitial
glutamate concentration and high ICP is still obscure [13,
14]. Nevertheless, there is a fear that exogenous glutamine
supplementation may increase interstitial glutamate concentration
intracerebrally in brain injury patients, resulting
in detrimental effects upon outcome.

I'm not sure how many times the article I linked to warned to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble.. .

To warn to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble is not discussing the counter arguments. No one needs "experts" to say that; this is common knowledge for many people. The problem is, if these people are experts, than they should research, find, collect and discuss the counter arguments in the same article as best as they can, with an objective mind. This is how you analyse.

 

[hugh]

I think we have been here before....
Yes, getting it from food is best.

To warn to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble is not discussing the counter arguments.

I'm open to looking at the counter arguments but there is very little out there (and i'm not referring to paleo websites) other than liver and mania issues.

No one needs "experts" to say that; this is common knowledge for many people. The problem is, if these people are experts, than they should research, find, collect and discuss the counter arguments in the same article as best as they can, with an objective mind. This is how you analyse.

I look forward to the 'collection' of counter arguments as i haven't seen any (other than those mentioned above).
Other than cautioning you to take it easy and stop at the first sign of trouble what else should they do?
-Trawl forums looking for anecdotal evidence to support the recommendation for caution that they already made?

 

[Crohn2357]

"Mania issues" are not the primary problem, they're just symptoms of the underlying problem, which is neurotoxicity, and who knows what it does to your brain.



"cautioning you to take it easy and stop at the first sign of trouble"

That is not enough on its own. You may have serious physiological problems but they may not show any sign of trouble at all.
Observations of the symptoms (the observable effects) are not reliable on their own, in my opinion. I think they should acknowledge people about the risks (neurotoxicity, for example) by stating them explicitly in the same article. Not because they are true (it doesn't matter if they haven't been falsified yet), but because these counter thoughts exist, and some people may benefit from knowing them.



"what else should they do?
-Trawl forums looking for anecdotal evidence to support the recommendation for caution that they already made?"

They can google these keywords to see some of the papers: "glutamine toxicity pubmed" , "glutamine neurotoxicty pubmed". This is just one thing, among many, they can do. It's their job to know how to search for the claims of potential dangers on any health advise they make.

 

[hugh]

"Mania issues" are not the primary problem, they're just symptoms of the underlying problem, which is neurotoxicity, and who knows what it does to your brain.

"cautioning you to take it easy and stop at the first sign of trouble"

That is not enough on its own. You may have serious physiological problems but they may not show any sign of trouble at all.
Observations of the symptoms (the observable effects) are not reliable on their own, in my opinion. I think they should acknowledge people about the risks (neurotoxicity, for example) by stating them explicitly in the same article. Not because they are true (it doesn't matter if they haven't falsified yet), but because these counter thoughts exist, and some people may benefit from knowing them.

"what else should they do?
-Trawl forums looking for anecdotal evidence to support the recommendation for caution that they already made?"

They can google these keywords to see some of the papers: "glutamine toxicity pubmed" , "glutamine neurotoxicty pubmed". This is just one thing, among many, they can do. It's their job to know how to search for the claims of potential dangers on any health advise they make.

I'm struggling to find anything other than the theory that excess glutamine promotes hepatic encephalopathy in people with liver disease, which is serious, but still just a theory.

Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in the blood and is continuously circulating so we are obviously able to regulate uptake as required (unless we aren't able, which is your point). With a healthy liver it appears that ammonia build-up is not an issue, but the science is way over my head and, to be honest, out of my interest range.
As evidence appears and theory turns to knowledge i am sure websites will be updated.....

It is still a conditionally essential amino acid so i'm still going to eat foods containing large amounts of glutamine (but not take glutamine supplements), and not feel in the least bit worried about it, just like i'm going to eat bone broth and not worry about lead....

 

[Crohn2357]

It is still a conditionally essential amino acid so i'm still going to eat foods containing large amounts of glutamine (but not take glutamine supplements), and not feel in the least bit worried about it, just like i'm going to eat bone broth and not worry about lead....

Agreed.

 

[Crohn2357]

Glutamine and cancer cells:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3754270/

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/aidan-goggins/glutamine-and-cancer_b_2740348.html

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4939-1932-1_8

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170413124348.htm

 

[Smartfitness1992]

I recently stumbled upon information on Ketogenic diets, they are used to treat epilepsy and also as clean-bulk diets for body builders.

The basis for the diet is you eat a lot of meats and fat and virtually nothing that contains carbs and sugars, in a few weeks your body learns to metabolize fat as an energy source instead of sugars.

Currently this sounds very promising for me as my food intolerances basically limit me to eating white meats and dairy products as I am gluten intolerant, can't tolerate most fruits and vegetables or oils, legumes etc.

The only real issue left is that carbs and sugars make it much easier for me to make my daily calorie quota (I'd like to reasonably be as close to 2k as possible) and without them I'd have to eat a lot more meats and fats to make up for it.



Does anyone have any knowledge of this diet as pertains to Crohn's?

---------------------------------------------

Hey man I actually went keto for a bit, I found it was definitely beneficial GI wise, but it became difficult to sustain simply due to the lifestyle it entails.

I recognize from your comments you are into health and fitness, I too am. I actually switched to more of a carb cycling method as I found this was more sustainable long term and I didn't have to supplement a ton of micronutrients.

My advice (and many others, as I am actually in this field for school and my career), would be, if you're set on going keto, follow the anabolic diet. It cycles high fat like keto 5 days a week and 2 days a week of "carb re-feeds". I do this, but not on weekends, simply due to my lifestyle. It works best, and I never have cravings for desires for some sort of food.

 

[Crohn2357]

Hi hugh, it's been a while.

In this thread you said:

No idea but let us know how it goes. I feel like I've had a hangover/head cold for about 5 years now

I have a similar issue, and I think I've found something that is both effective and safe. It's Sulbutiamine. It's a special form of thiamine that crosses blood brain barrier more efficiently. It increases both physical and mental energy. You can read reviews on amazon or other websites on this supplement.

I have been taking it for more than a month and it somewhat helps me. It might help you too.

Best.

 

[Crohn2357]

Sarah Ballantyne - The Danger of Ketogenic Diets Why Most of Us Shouldn’t Do It

This should have been longer in duration. It's incomprehensive like this.

 

[Crohn2357]

..

 

[Crohn2357]

hugh, you might appreciate this:

Hardy, Karen, et al. “The Importance of Dietary Carbohydrate in Human Evolution.” The Quarterly Review of Biology, vol. 90, no. 3, 2015, pp. 251–268. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/682587

 

[hugh]

hugh, you might appreciate this:

Hardy, Karen, et al. “The Importance of Dietary Carbohydrate in Human Evolution.” The Quarterly Review of Biology, vol. 90, no. 3, 2015, pp. 251–268. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/682587

yeah,
maybe.
nice theory, i'll put it up there with the theory that it was fat from hunting, and the theory that it was fire releasing more energy from our foods, or that it was times of scarcity that forced innovation and adaptation

I'm guessing that it wasn't just carbs, and it wasn't just fat, and it wasn't just fire,
it was all of them at different times to different groups in different environments.
Some groups learned to thrive with higher fat and some learned to thrive with higher carb.

 

[dino]

I tried Keto and had a huge flare. I cannot correlate it completely to the Keto and I do not have a diagnosis of Crohn's- just the symptoms of it, but due to the timing I think Keto did something not so beneficial to my body. I know people with UC that do it with success... just be careful if you've had a history of difficulty processing fats. Also I used to think protein was my safe food, but I've come to realize I think it can be a trigger. Best of luck!

 

[Crohn2357]

yeah,
maybe.
nice theory, i'll put it up there with the theory that it was fat from hunting, and the theory that it was fire releasing more energy from our foods, or that it was times of scarcity that forced innovation and adaptation

I'm guessing that it wasn't just carbs, and it wasn't just fat, and it wasn't just fire,
it was all of them at different times to different groups in different environments.
Some groups learned to thrive with higher fat and some learned to thrive with higher carb.

The main reason I posted this article is I have been reading about the importance of carbs and reading in general about macronutrient ratios for optimal health for some time.

I came to the judgement that eating carbs is necessary for optimal health. I know diet is very individualistic, but this is true in general.

One question: How much of your calories should come from carbs according to Paul Jaminet? I know he has changed his initial suggestion (from his book) and increased its percentage. Is it 30% or 40% now?

A side note: I have been adding liberal amount of virgin coconut oil to my rice while cooking and I find it to be a good way to increase my daily coconut oil intake. Rice and coconut oil go well with each other.
I also eat coconut oil straight from the jar, I especially do this when I am eating dry parts of an animal (like chicken breast).
I can recommend these methods as nice and easy ways to increase coconut oil intake.

I think saturated fats and safe starches are very important. Without these lots of health problems occur.

 

[Crohn2357]

How much of your calories should come from carbs according to Paul Jaminet? I know he has changed his initial suggestion (from his book) and increased its percentage. Is it 30% or 40% now?

I found the answer: 30 percent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1LP9-3maYE

 

[Crohn2357]

hugh, may I ask you to read this article and write me your opinion about fish oil supplementation?

I have been taking high quality fish oil for years, and after reading that article I decided stop the supplementation and observe the effects.

Well, after stopping it, my rectal bleeding has increased massively. In addition, a very mild arthritic pain in my knees has started to happen (comes and goes). I am not sure if this is related to my stopping fish oil supplementation or not. It could also be my experiments with eating fruits (fructose causes these problems too). Or maybe a combination of things. Hard to know definitively.

What are your opinions about PUFA avoidance and many other claims (or implications) of Ray Peat's article?

The main reason I had been taking fish oil was to increase neurogenesis and enhance cerebral functions in general.

 

[Crohn2357]

More articles:

http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/oils-in-context.shtml

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturated-oils.shtml

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsuitablefats.shtml

 

[hugh]

I found the answer: 30 percent.

It's a good starting point....
Some people will do better with less and some with more.
it's only one part of a diet and getting the 'right' amount of carbs without getting anything else 'right' probably wont help much.

Like everything it is a 'u'-shaped curve, too much is harmful, too little is harmful and in the middle is a range that seems optimal.
We have the ability to create glucose from protein through the process of neoglucogenesis so erring to the low side may be more beneficial (decreased microbial activity and intermittent ketosis)

hugh, may I ask you to read this article and write me your opinion about fish oil supplementation?

my opinion (and i'm just some random guy on the internet pushing his half baked belief system) is very much in line with Paul Jaminet's advice
If you can get fresh oily fish and cook them gently then that is the best way to get fish oil [1]

Well, after stopping it, my rectal bleeding has increased massively. In addition, a very mild arthritic pain in my knees has started to happen (comes and goes). I am not sure if this is related to my stopping fish oil supplementation or not. It could also be my experiments with eating fruits (fructose causes these problems too). Or maybe a combination of things. Hard to know definitively.

Not so hard, try the fish oil with fruit and no fish oil with no fruit.......
My money is on the fruit being the problem.....

What are your opinions about PUFA avoidance and many other claims (or implications) of Ray Peat's article?

Way over my pay grade...
I'm very OK with the concept that 'we' eat way too much PUFA, and that most of it is toxic and rancid, and that vegetable ['seed] oils are a brilliant way to sell a toxic waste product as a healthy choice....
But that doesn't mean none is the right amount....

I'm not up on Ray Peat, and a quick google hasn't really changed my mind (much) [2]....
Anything on the WAP/Ancestral/Paleo/GAPS?whatever spectrum is going to be a good starting point, and arguing about which is better is like arguing if Nike are better than New Balance.
your feet are different to mine and you run differently too.
I understand a few of his ideas but they are not applicable to everyone all the time.

I'm still a paleo guy (but figure out what paleo foods you can tolerate and how much is the right amount). but i prefer "ancestral" as paleo has too many connotations and stereotypes.

[1] Fish, Not Fish Oil Capsules
"In fact, clinical trials have compared eating fish to eating fish oil capsules. Fish consumption has an excellent record in a number of clinical trials, but fish oil capsule supplements do not. "
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/06/fish-not-fish-oil-capsules/

[2] The Peat-atarian Diet For Those Of Us With Average IQs
"What makes the Peat Diet unique is that it approaches nutrition from a hormonal perspective. It is all about reducing chronic stress. To me the Peat Diet appears to be a modern fix to the WAPF Diet."
"it appears to me that the person most likely to benefit from this diet will be someone who has had a long history with dieting, specifically low-carb dieting. Weight loss has stalled. Most likely the person is female and possibly with a low thyroid. Ideally the person would be able to handle dairy. That is not to say others wouldn’t benefit, but that seems like the person who would get the most results."
https://criticalmas.com/2012/11/the-peatarian-diet-for-those-of-us-with-average-iqs/

 

[Crohn2357]

I started antibiotics yesterday because of the bleeding.

My money is on the fruit being the problem.....

Yes, it is more probable.

 

[Crohn2357]

I found what's been causing the problem: a plant extract I have been using as a natural migraine prophylactic for a month. It's Feverfew. A potent inhibitor of prostaglandin synthesis, which, although known as pro-inflammatory, seems to have gut protective properties.

The initial glimmer of our current recognition that PGE2 is critical to the homeostasis of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract dates to 1938, when acetylsalicylic acid, or aspirin, was first reported to cause gastric hemorrhage [4], which in 1955 was attributed to its potential to promote erosive gastritis [5]. The roots of our mechanistic understanding for these observations derive from two Nobel Prize-winning discoveries, namely the purification and structural characterization of prostaglandins by Sune Bergström and Bengt Samuelsson, and the subsequent discovery by John Vane that aspirin inhibited the enzymatic production of prostaglandins. Today, it is recognized that abundant production of PGE2 by the constitutively active cyclooxygenase-1 in gastric epithelial cells is critical to their protection from a harsh acidic environment. It is now appreciated that PGE2 promotes epithelial integrity in other parts of the GI tract and indeed in other organs. That PGE2 protects against epithelial injury is evident from its anti-apoptotic effects in a mouse model of radiation colitis [6]. Although PGE2 is classically thought of as a pro-inflammatory molecule, this reputation largely reflects its actions on the microvasculature, but—interestingly—its effects on leukocytes are predominantly suppressive, as exemplified by its contribution to immune tolerance in the gut [7]. The increased risk of Crohn’s disease associated with the use of aspirin and other NSAIDs [8] may therefore be explained by the loss of both the anti-inflammatory and epithelial-protective actions of PGE2.

Returning to the challenge of curbing fibrotic responses, significant data—mostly from studies of the lung, liver, kidney, and skin—support the hypothesis that PGE2 exerts anti-fibrotic effects independently of its anti-inflammatory and epithelial-protective actions. This reflects that PGE2 can also inhibit nearly all aspects of fibroblast activation via its ability to increase intracellular cyclic AMP [9]; in vivo administration of PGE2 can prevent lung fibrosis in mouse models [10]. The paper by Baird and colleagues reports for the first time that exogenous administration of PGE2 ameliorated intestinal fibrosis in the commonly employed 2,4,6-trinitrobenzene sulfonic acid (TNBS) murine model. The authors also examined the effects of PGE2 on intestinal fibroblasts in vitro, and like fibroblasts from other organs, PGE2 directly inhibited fibroblast proliferation and collagen production. Since in this in vivo study PGE2 was co-administered with TNBS, it inhibited intestinal inflammation as well. This experimental design, therefore, fails to distinguish whether PGE2 is capable of actually reversing preexisting intestinal fibrosis or whether it merely limits the inflammatory damage that culminates in fibrosis. As noted earlier, an independent anti-fibrotic effect is essential if we are to argue that PGE2 is superior to existing immunomodulatory drugs used to treat IBD. Although its recognized direct inhibitory effects on fibroblast functions would predict that this would be the case, a proof-of-principle experiment would require its administration later in the disease model when intestinal fibrosis is already established.

From: Prostaglandin E2 and Polyenylphosphatidylcholine: Stiff Competition for the Fibrotic Complications of Inflammatory Bowel Disease?

To add an interesting information, fish oil and PUFAs in general are known to increase prostaglandin synthesis. This may be an additional mechanism (the other being their immunosuppressive effects) to fish oil's positive effects on Crohn's Disease.

So, feverfew inhibited its synthesis, and my stopping taking fish oil caused a further decrease in prostaglandin levels. I think the more important perpetrator here is feverfew. I am stopping taking it.

 

[Crohn2357]

Hello hugh, I would like to learn your opinion regarding dried fruit consumption. As I have said before, the only safe starches available to me are white rice and green bananas. I can’t eat fruits, but i might be able to eat dried mulberries without much of an issue (just started experimenting with it).

This is the rather crude way of looking at these foods from a paleo perspective, though i agree that it is easy to overeat with these things. https://paleoleap.com/dried-fruit-and-sugar/

What do you think about dried berries as a safe carb source? Eating it every day? Once when i learn the exact quantities i tend to eat i will let you know.

Possible problems: SIBO, fungal overgrowth, crohn’s flaring up, arthritis, migraine attacks from the fructose, deterioration of oral health,increased inflammation. This is my speculation.

Do you have any cautioning?

I need natural carb alternatives in my diet. Struggling with this.

Edit: I measured the amount. 250 grams of dried mulberries a day. Normally the sugar concentration of berries is lower than that of the other kinds of fruits; but since this is a dried fruit it doesn’t have water in it so it’s all sugar and fibre by weight.

Other than this the only carb I eat is 100 grams of white rice ever day. The dried fruit gives me a much-needed energy; but i fear it’s very dangerous to eat it because of its inflammogenic effects. Its other effects on me are great though: greatly increased energy, mental concentration, motivation, productivity, reduced stress[1] etc.

[1]: "This study provides novel evidence for the glucocorticoid-metabolic-brain feedback pathway in humans. Previous findings suggested that anabolic (or anticatabolic) effects of consuming highly palatable and calorically dense foods or beverages signal the brain to turn off the HPA stress response (14). Teleologically, this makes sense because, in anticipation of or during stress, elevated concentrations of glucocorticoids such as cortisol stimulate catabolism to ensure fuel for the brain and the fight or flight response (27). During recovery from stress, these steroid hormones promote energy recovery by motivating energy intake and stimulating lipogenesis and glycogen synthesis (28). Unlike artificial sweeteners, sugar may provide the fuel needed to meet the energetic demands of stress, which may reduce the need for glucocorticoid-driven energy catabolism and mobilization of the body's energy stores. Consistent with this notion, rodent data have shown that sucrose consumption prevents body catabolism and the activation in the HPA axis (8, 10, 29). The results we present here show that humans' ingestion of sucrose, but not artificially, sweetened beverages reduced stress-induced increases in circulating cortisol."

Excerpt From
Excessive Sugar Consumption May Be a Difficult Habit to Break: A View From the Brain and Body
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4454811/

 

[hugh]

Hello hugh, I would like to learn your opinion regarding dried fruit consumption.

I'll say it again,
I'm just some guy who likes to tell people what they are doing wrong,
doesn't mean i know what i'm talking about......

Short answer - suck it and see.....

I think dried fruit is evil (on it's own that is, a bit mixed into some paleo dish is fine)

As I have said before, the only safe starches available to me are white rice and green bananas.

but....

I need natural carb alternatives in my diet. Struggling with this.

So, you 'need' variety not carbs?
Do you have any idea of your actual carb consumption?
How 'bout rice syrup - glucose no fructose

A big factor is easily digested carbs so there are less left for the colon bugs, doesn't mean SIBO isn't an issue though

though i agree that it is easy to overeat with these things.

Absofuckinlutely.......

What do you think about dried berries as a safe carb source? Eating it every day? Once when i learn the exact quantities i tend to eat i will let you know.

Berries are the best fruit for antioxidant/fructose ratio but colourful veggies are even better

Possible problems: SIBO, fungal overgrowth, crohn’s flaring up, arthritis, migraine attacks from the fructose, deterioration of oral health,increased inflammation. This is my speculation.

maybe, Dose and individual tolerance related

Do you have any cautioning?

go easy, have with low carb foods to buffer Glycemic Load

I need natural carb alternatives in my diet. Struggling with this.

I get it ( i fall off the waggon and binge on 'healthy' shit too) but WHY?
- psychological? - emotional?
Not physical

Other than this the only carb I eat is 100 grams of white rice ever day. The dried fruit gives me a much-needed energy; but i fear it’s very dangerous to eat it because of its inflammogenic effects. Its other effects on me are great though: greatly increased energy, mental concentration, motivation, productivity, reduced stress[1] etc.

Why not more rice?
Aim for 150gm of carbs a day and see

Carbs is only one small(?) factor affecting stress...
Have you tried meditation or some other practice (yoga, laughing, excersise etc)?

 

[Crohn2357]

I'll say it again,
I'm just some guy who likes to tell people what they are doing wrong,
doesn't mean i know what i'm talking about......

Short answer - suck it and see.....

I think dried fruit is evil (on it's own that is, a bit mixed into some paleo dish is fine)


but....

So, you 'need' variety not carbs?
Do you have any idea of your actual carb consumption?
How 'bout rice syrup - glucose no fructose

A big factor is easily digested carbs so there are less left for the colon bugs, doesn't mean SIBO isn't an issue though


Absofuckinlutely.......


Berries are the best fruit for antioxidant/fructose ratio but colourful veggies are even better


maybe, Dose and individual tolerance related


go easy, have with low carb foods to buffer Glycemic Load


I get it ( i fall off the waggon and binge on 'healthy' shit too) but WHY?
- psychological? - emotional?
Not physical


Why not more rice?
Aim for 150gm of carbs a day and see

Carbs is only one small(?) factor affecting stress...
Have you tried meditation or some other practice (yoga, laughing, excersise etc)?

Yeah a few hours after my last edit I came to the same conclusions as you. I have been eating 80-100 grams of white rice and that was the problem. I doubled that amount, and also increased my coconut oil and meat intake. I think this will take care of it.

At first the fruits made me feel good, but then its effects become reversed: a disturbed, hyper-excited state, even lower productivity and higher stress.

You asked great questions. I could write more but I am not on the PC. I basically agree with everything you said in this post. Thank you for writing.

 

[InstantCoffee]

The funny thing about natural carbs vs. not is that table sugar is actually low fodmap and I do better on it than I do with a lot of unrefined carbs like rices, quinoa, etc. which are not low fodmap.

 

[Crohn2357]

White rice is 100% starch, and it gets converted into glucose in the body. AFAIK, starch by itself is not considered as fodmap, fodmaps are short chain carbohydrates.

Table sugar is sucrose which is half glucose and half fructose, theoretically if what you’re reacting to is the fodmaps then you should do worse on the table sugar.

Maybe there are other issues going on that you are not aware of.

 

[InstantCoffee]

You're right about the grains, I was misremembering, but sucrose is considered low-fodmap by all sources I've checked.

 

[Crohn2357]

You're right about the grains, I was misremembering, but sucrose is considered low-fodmap by all sources I've checked.

These might interest you:

https://www.thepaleomom.com/is-fructose-a-key-player-in-the-rise-of-chronic-health-problems/

https://www.thepaleomom.com/modifying-paleo-for-fodmap-intolerance/

 

[Crohn2357]

Hello hugh

I have a question for you.

I have been avoiding mushrooms for years, because yeast in general make my symptoms worse, and I have always thought mushrooms would be bad for me to ingest for that reason. This avoidance is purely on principle, I haven't had a problem with mushrooms experimentally (though I don't have much of an experience, I just cut them from my diet "a priori" years ago). I have always assumed mushrooms could cause yeast build-up in the gut, and that could get into my bloodstream due to leaky gut.

What do you think about this idea? This is only my speculation, and I want to know your opinion about it.

Can we say that cooking the mushrooms could destroy the cellular structure (kill the cells) of the mushrooms, and thus prevent the problem from occuring?

***

There is also cross-reactivity?

Mushrooms

Mushrooms are members of the fungi family and they can cross-react with Candida, meaning your body and your immune system may confuse them with Candida. This can cause you to have an inflammatory reaction to mushrooms and can interfere with your treatment.

From: https://www.amymyersmd.com/2016/07/9-foods-to-avoid-if-you-have-candida/

It should be noted that Sarah Ballantyne has included mushrooms in AIP diet. If this was a case, she wouldn't include mushrooms into her diet protocol (or, another possibility might be that she doesn't know this).
https://www.thepaleomom.com/start-here/the-autoimmune-protocol/
https://www.thepaleomom.com/wiki/mushroom/

Another opinion:

Avoid Molds, But Most Mushrooms Are OK
Much of the worry about fungi (mushrooms) in the diet of Candida sufferers is unwarranted. Mushrooms can be a healthy part of your Candida diet, and in fact their immune-stimulatory properties may be quite helpful. If you are foraging, remember to be careful of poisonous mushrooms. And if you notice any mold growing on your mushrooms, it’s best to throw them away. But in general, mushrooms can be a sensible addition to your eating plan.
Mold is a different matter. Try to avoid foods that are moldy, including those where mold is an intentional part of the food (like blue cheeses or camembert). Mold simply isn’t a nutritive thing for you to eat, and it can trigger unpleasant allergy symptoms or mold sensitivities. For the same reasons, you should ensure that you don’t have black mold in your house.

From:https://www.thecandidadiet.com/molds-mushrooms-candida/

Taxonomy, terminology
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-differences-between-fungi-and-mould
https://www.bioidea.net/resources/what-are-molds-fungi-mushrooms-and-yeasts/
http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-yeast-and-fungus/
https://www.badgut.org/information-centre/health-nutrition/yeast-and-mould-allergy/

Edit: Found this:

Fungal Infection: In extremely rare cases fruiting fungi have been know to infect immune comprised people (Speller and Maciver 1971; Kern and Uecker 1986). Although most of these fungi are soil inhabitants that infect through wounds, it is likely that all fungi can potentially be harmful to a damaged immune system. These fungi can be more aggressive than the obligate pathogens we are use to, and they can be inordinately difficult to treat. Luckily most of our immune systems will easily take care of those wayward mushroom spores and active mycelium that enter our bodily kingdom. However if you are diabetic, in treatment for cancer, have had an organ transplant or a serious disease like AIDS... you definitely will want to inactivate live mushroom tissue by thoroughly cooking.
...
Science Lesson: You may have heard somewhere along the line that we are more closely related to fungus than plants. Fungi are one of the steps on the evolutionary road from algae to animals... plants veered off on a different route. Some had theorized this was the case by comparing physical traits fungi have in common with the animal kingdom, like chitin cell walls. More recently genetic relationship studies have validated the evolutionary tie between fungi and animals. Our evolutionary kinship is also the reason fungal infections can be very difficult to treat. The fungal metabolism is so similar to ours, it is very difficult to target a fungus without gravely affecting the human host as well.

From: http://everythingmushrooms.com/a-few-reasons-to-cook-the-mushrooms-you-eat/

 

[hugh]

I have been avoiding mushrooms for years, because yeast in general make my symptoms worse, and I have always thought mushrooms would be bad for me to ingest for that reason. This avoidance is purely on principle, I haven't had a problem with mushrooms experimentally (though I don't have much of an experience, I just cut them from my diet "a priori" years ago). I have always assumed mushrooms could cause yeast build-up in the gut, and that could get into my bloodstream due to leaky gut.
What do you think about this idea? This is only my speculation, and I want to know your opinion about it.
Can we say that cooking the mushrooms could destroy the cellular structure (kill the cells) of the mushrooms, and thus prevent the problem from occuring?

Once again. - i’m just some guy who likes to share his opinion about food online, doesn’t mean I know anything……

That said, i don't come to the same conclusion....

Obviously if you try mushrooms and notice any worsening of anything then stop immediately….
Some people react to yeast, so they should avoid mushrooms or test carefully,
Some people can’t digest them and may have digestive distress,
And who knows, some might have problems that take longer to present…...

But if I said don’t ingest any bacteria because a particular bacteria was harmful then you would see that it is obviously false, likewise ‘don’t eat any fungus because this one is bad’ doesn’t make any sense at all.
I put more credence in the theory that beneficial yeasts could be used to out-compete harmful ones. [1]

All that being said, we are talking about a completely different thing.
Mushrooms are NOT food for fungus/yeast, so if there is an intolerance/reaction then avoid, but that applies to all foods.
Many mushrooms have medicinal qualities, but do your own research and test with caution….[2]
Cooking is a good idea because it kills any other soil based potential pathogens and the fungus itself as well as making them more digestible.

short answer - suck it and see......

[1] Study: Good Yeast vs. Bad Yeast, the Differences Unveiled
“Currently, it’s common practice to use Saccharomyces to produce drugs against Candida.”
https://www.rdmag.com/article/2016/10/study-good-yeast-vs-bad-yeast-differences-unveiled

not sure how all the science stacks up (hype vs. efficacy etc), just that overall seems to be a positive for many intestinal complaints but not hugely so.

Top 9 Proven Health Benefits of Saccharomyces Boulardii (S. boulardii)
https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/s-boulardii/#S_boulardii_is_Beneficial_in_Crohn's_Disease

[2] keep in mind this is an add for a product…...
Revolutionize Your Health with SurThrival’s Medicinal Mushroom Extracts
”The amazing health benefits of mushrooms are primarily attributable to two classes of nutrients: triterpenes and polysaccharides.
Trierpenes are compounds with powerful adaptogenic properties — they help the body deal with stress by regulating and normalizing bodily functions. Triterpenes also increase oxygen uptake and support liver health and detoxification.
Research has shown that certain polysaccharides found in medicinal mushrooms, called beta-glucans, have the ability to modulate the immune system by lowering the overactive (auto-immune) immune system, and stimulating the under-active (immuno-deficient) immune system. When used for a period of time, beta-glucans build, strengthen and balance the immune system. Beta-glucans have received a lot of attention recently for their anti-cancer potential, as the connection between immune function and cancer has become increasingly accepted in the medical world.”
http://www.liveinthenow.com/article/how-to-use-medicinal-mushrooms-to-achieve-optimal-health

 

[Crohn2357]

Thanks. I should send you a check as a consultation fee.

 

[sam128]

keto diet is actually the worst diet ever. believe me! best lose weight pills 2018

 

[hugh]

keto diet is actually the worst diet ever.

because.....?

 

[sam128]

because.....?

because i was constantly angry and hungry and seen no results at all

 

[NyellBarnet]

because i was constantly angry and hungry and seen no results at all

because.??????:ywow:

 

[InstantCoffee]

because i was constantly angry and hungry and seen no results at all

Sounds like you didn't fully convert to ketosis

 

[Crohn2357]

i get sheep fat and render it to cook with.
lots and lots of sheep fat , and lots of coconut fat......

Started doing this.

https://paleoleap.com/rendering-fat/

I use the wet rendering, because it seems healthier than dry rendering.

Rendered sheep fat is a good alternative to coconut oil.

 

[sam128]

Started doing this.

https://paleoleap.com/rendering-fat/

I use the wet rendering, because it seems healthier than dry rendering.

Rendered sheep fat is a good alternative to coconut oil.

Thanks, i will also check it, but coconut oil is still #1 oil for me. fitness muscle building

 

[sam128]

Once again. - i’m just some guy who likes to share his opinion about food online, doesn’t mean I know anything……

That said, i don't come to the same conclusion....
ketogenic keto fat burners
Obviously if you try mushrooms and notice any worsening of anything then stop immediately…. bcaa aminos
Some people react to yeast, so they should avoid mushrooms or test carefully,whey hemp pea powder for vegans
Some people can’t digest them and may have digestive distress,
And who knows, some might have problems that take longer to present…...best natural steroids

But if I said don’t ingest any bacteria because a particular bacteria was harmful then you would see that it is obviously false, likewise ‘don’t eat any fungus because this one is bad’ doesn’t make any sense at all.
I put more credence in the theory that beneficial yeasts could be used to out-compete harmful ones. [1]bodybuilding supplements

All that being said, we are talking about a completely different thing.
Mushrooms are NOT food for fungus/yeast, so if there is an intolerance/reaction then avoid, but that applies to all foods.
Many mushrooms have medicinal qualities, but do your own research and test with caution….[2]
Cooking is a good idea because it kills any other soil based potential pathogens and the fungus itself as well as making them more digestible.

short answer - suck it and see......

[1] Study: Good Yeast vs. Bad Yeast, the Differences Unveiled
“Currently, it’s common practice to use Saccharomyces to produce drugs against Candida.”
https://www.rdmag.com/article/2016/10/study-good-yeast-vs-bad-yeast-differences-unveiled

not sure how all the science stacks up (hype vs. efficacy etc), just that overall seems to be a positive for many intestinal complaints but not hugely so.

Top 9 Proven Health Benefits of Saccharomyces Boulardii (S. boulardii)
https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/s-boulardii/#S_boulardii_is_Beneficial_in_Crohn's_Disease

[2] keep in mind this is an add for a product…...
Revolutionize Your Health with SurThrival’s Medicinal Mushroom Extracts
”The amazing health benefits of mushrooms are primarily attributable to two classes of nutrients: triterpenes and polysaccharides.
Trierpenes are compounds with powerful adaptogenic properties — they help the body deal with stress by regulating and normalizing bodily functions. Triterpenes also increase oxygen uptake and support liver health and detoxification.
Research has shown that certain polysaccharides found in medicinal mushrooms, called beta-glucans, have the ability to modulate the immune system by lowering the overactive (auto-immune) immune system, and stimulating the under-active (immuno-deficient) immune system. When used for a period of time, beta-glucans build, strengthen and balance the immune system. Beta-glucans have received a lot of attention recently for their anti-cancer potential, as the connection between immune function and cancer has become increasingly accepted in the medical world.”
http://www.liveinthenow.com/article/how-to-use-medicinal-mushrooms-to-achieve-optimal-health

guys, is dairy good for my health or not?

 

[hugh]

guys, is dairy good for my health or not?

Dairy may be problematic for different people for different reasons.
Without doing an elimination diet (like SCD or FODMAPS of AIP etc) you wont know if you tolerate it or not.
Dairy can have sugars (lactose) that people cant digest, leading to gas, bloating etc and proteins that cause issues (apparently similar to lactose intolerance).

SCD recommends a particular style of yougurt but many find dairy (particularly milk and less often hard cheese and butters) should be avoided and reintroduced latter when everything is settled

 

[Crohn2357]

I think it is good for health if you are able to digest it without having health problems. Many people have issues with dairy, but many other people can consume them without any issues and those can benefit from dairy I think. Doing an elimination diet is the best way to learn about your body's tolerance to foods in my opinion.