Soy dangerous for men??

[Fog Ducker]

Sorry if it has been posted before.

This is an article I saw in Mens Health magazine a few months back, that I found very interesting, and made me stop thinking soy milk was better than dairy milk. Also droped the ensure out of my diet.

Crazy stuff!

http://www.menshealth.com/bestfoods/food_features/Is_This_the_Most_Dangerous_Food_for_Men.php

 

[BWS1982]

Ha, I've been saying this for years, but I've had to downplay it some in recent years (or moderate my passion against it, rather) because I know a lot of people depend on soy for some reason or another, and it often seems unavoidable as a filler (if you read labels like I do), and there's a health-subculture who really rely on it and support it as an alternative to beef and dairy, to which I respect their choice (I just don't see "eating healthy" and eating meat as mutually exclusive, I've debated this here with Colt).

I don't condemn it to uselessness, but for men and especially athletes and those trying to conceive or concerned about health in general (many guys have the "I don't give a s*** attitude about trans fats, health, exercise, etc...) it's definitely a component to watch for. This has become a "to each their own" but I have diligently done my own research and evaluated my own "goals" and needs.

I became aware of it through the bodybuilding world, but also saw lots from Men's Health over the last 6 years on it from several studies (I used to subscribe to it) and articles....In the bodybuilding world, or at least about 95% of it (there's a vegan sub-culture in it who's atypical to most dietary "mantras" and practices), it's a giant no-no to eat much soy at all. The easiest way to say it is that it's a phytoestrogen, and the body sees it as a version of estrogen, and the way those hormones work, is that when one increases, the other decreases (referring to Testosterone and Estrogen), their levels are inversely related, for the most part, offsetting each other.

So basically larger quantities of soy drops your test levels, and testosterone is not just for muscle building and preservation, but for good moods/mental health, fighting off fat gains, general male health, bone health, sexual health, etc... This even applies to females, as it helps with fighting off fat, aids in bone health and healthy hormonal/mental balance (as females have test too, just in much lower levels).

As a result, I've strictly gone with Rice milk. There's virtually no protein in it, but I'm accustomed to finding ways to increase or supplement that.

 

[fenway1971]

I saw same stuff a couple years back and dropped it from my diet. I used to drink it as a dairy milk substitute too.

 

[Fog Ducker]

BWS you made me also think about my protein powder. Going to be watching out for soy in them now as well.

 

[BWS1982]

Heh, well in that regard, *most* that I've seen personally are usually pretty unique, in that they're usually all whey, all egg albumin, all soy, all casein, etc... There are very few that are "mixed", because each source has unique properties (whey is very quick to digest, while casein is probably the slowest, soy DOES have some purported heart benefits, etc..)...So most companies don't like to mix those properties for fear of diluting the benefits or purposes. They're usually just "whey protein" or "soy protein"...

This applies to the powders though, not so much MRP's (which are Meal Replacement Products) or RTD's (which are ready to drink shakes, pre-made in bottles, often refrigerated)...some of those I've seen have more additives, minerals, vitamins, supplements, etc..included. I saw a mixed powder product a few years ago, it was a casein and soy combo powder, and I'm sure they're out there, but most "regular" powders are very wholesome and "pure"...so if that helps to set any worries aside...

Now protein bars, on the other hand, have like 400 ingredients and often like to have things like "Quad Source Protein" and "Myoplex" and "Protein Blend" and do protein source combo's and the likes...

 

[DanSJVDavis]

Good thing I don't eat it all that often. An occasional stir-fry night or going out to Sapporo. Haven't noticed it on the labels in much of the stuff we use either. The wife drinks soy milk, but I don't really like the stuff. No, I'm pretty sure my moobs are flabby because I'm out of shape.

Now, splenda/sucralose, there's one I watch out for! They're sneaking that crap into everything nowadays! :ymad:

 

[imisspopcorn]

Man boobs are sexy....what's the problem?

 

[Wiles]

I'd be curious to at what level of intake does soy start causing problems. The guy in the article consumed 3 quarts of soy a day. That's a lot of soy! When I drank more soy products I might go through that in a week.

 

[crazycanuck]

Sorry guys its apparently untrue. I'm taking a nutrition class at university here and we talked about this just last lecture actually. It was thought and has been thought for some time now. It will only have those effects if extreme amounts are taken. That meaning if you use it as a subsitute for normal amounts of milk, dairy.... then you would see or feel no changes whatsoever. If however your drink soy milk like there is no tomorrow yes you may see and feel changes but that is like anything you may eat or drink. There is an upper limit to everything we take in, too many carbs or fats and you'll gain wait, too much of a vitamin or mineral and you'll can have abdominal pain, diarrhea etc... There have been very recent studies which my prof has said shes looked at because a guy who is a heavyweight boxer in my class was wondering because he drinks soy milk for some ludacris reason. Turns out its misguided and misunderstood. So the answer is yes it can be dangerous.....the most dangersous is a little bit laughable. Too much of anything is bad and soy milk isn't exempt from that.

 

[D Bergy]

You would have to see exactly how much your total intake is. Soy is in many products. Read the label of ingredients for many foods you eat every day such as bread. It is cheap protein, and is not a plant that has been eaten by humans traditionally.

Your Grand Parents certainly never ate Soy in any form, as they grew up.

Fermented Soy does not have the same properties, so not all Soy has the ability to mimic Estrogen.

It is kind of like the Corn Syrup ad that says in moderate amounts, Corn Syrup is not bad for you. That may be true, but when it s in almost every product you buy, it adds up to more than a moderate amount.

Dan

 

[BWS1982]

Well, Wiles (and Crazy Canuck) the issue is that that threshold isn't currently concrete, but this is not the only time I've seen data like this, as they mention the plural, "journals" here:

What's more, studies of these phytoestrogens in leading peer-reviewed medical journals suggest that even lower doses—such as the amount in the 25-gram soy protein target cited by the FDA—have the potential to wreak hormonal havoc.

A simple 32 oz of soy milk has about 24 grams of protein, and add in what D Bergy mentioned, that it's a filler in many foods (baked goods, cereals, packaged items, it's in a lot of places) and it's not hard to fathom that you're dancing towards, near, or past that "threshold" which we have to acknowledge, is different for everyone (Price was a bit more sensitive to the phytoestrogens than many males)....

Yes, moderation will curtail these effects, but the fact that 25-50 grams can make a difference has at least me saying I don't want to go much past 10 or 15 at most.

I've been avoiding it or limiting it to what I can just because I know what estrogens in the male body do, but that has a bit more to my with my "lifestyle" than the average male may desire. The problem is though, as I said, it's not just about man breasts and muscle gains, it's about male health, mental, physical, the fact that almost any guy wouldn't mind being a bit leaner suggests to me the relevance is broader than just athletes, and estrogen offsets the fat-fighting testosterone. These effects are pretty broad, once you learn the mechanisms and responsibilities at play, even in women (there are upper limits that estrogen should reach in females too, as they need some testosterone and hormonal balance is critical). The soy of today is very different than the soy of 100 years ago, as well.

It's just fire I'd rather not play with, personally.

 

[D Bergy]

The soy of today is very different than the soy of 100 years ago, as well.

I missed the most important point you brought up. Almost all Soy in processed foods is the genetically modified variety.

Never tested on humans for safety. Animal studies indicate that it may not be safe to consume.

None of it is allowed in Europe.

It is an experiment in which we are all participants in, without our permission.

Dan

 

[D Bergy]

Has anyone ever tried Rice milk? I work with a guy that drinks it, but I have not tried it.

I do not like Milk and since the MAP bacteria can be in it, I will not drink it anyway.

Maybe Rice Milk tastes OK. I really don't know.

Dan

 

[Fog Ducker]

If there a risk of upsetting the fine horonal balance in our bodies with such a small amout of soy, then I dont want any at all! If 24g of it does damage, even 1g cant be good either!

 

[crazycanuck]

Well I am lucky I don't have to drink or eat in really any form so not such a big deal. I tolerate large amounts of milk per day. Its the heavy dairy like cream and ice cream which I will almost kill myself on. I'll take a look around and see if my lecture prof will give me the studies on it. If she does I'll post it here.

 

[crazycanuck]

Well I must admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong take a look at this....

Title:Soy and sperm..
Images
.Source:Harvard Men's Health Watch; Jun2009, Vol. 13 Issue 11, p7-7, 3/4p, 1 illustration.
Document Type:Article.
Subject Terms:SOYBEAN
BEANS
FERTILITY, Human
SPERMATOZOA
ISOFLAVONES.
Abstract:The article discusses research on the effects of soy consumption on male fertility. Tests reveal that men who consumed the most amount of soy had the lowest sperm count due to various isoflavones such as genistein, daidzein and glycetein. However, due to the small scale of the study, it cannot be said yet that men who want to father children should avoid soy.



----Although inconclusive yet thats kind of scary to me small scale or not. Incase you missed that its a Harvard Study. If you look at the whole study which I can't fit into a post it says that to produce more than a single copy other than for myself I must contact Harvard so it was a study done there. And this is the first one I came across in my school's journal database.

 

[Wiles]

The soynog in my fridge as suddenly become less appetizing.

 

[imisspopcorn]

So, which one of you guys are going to consume mass quantities of soy to see if this is true or not???...Why don't you send it into 'Myth Busters'.

 

[crazycanuck]

Haha well I'm too young to have kids. Maybe the next birth control method??? Haha im completely kidding about that. Good idea sending it to mythbusters though.

 

[BWS1982]

It's not just impotence or abysmal sex drive that it could bring about, it could mess up your mood and body composition and other functions. It's on a larger scale than "birth control" I'm afraid. Probably no need to subject Adam and Jamie on Mythbusters to such alterations either, but I think the evidence is damning enough to at least warrant caution. Some genetic engineering once again, if possible, would be a nice method of changing things with soybeans. Then again there is the combo of "rice and beans" (not soybeans), and together they have a complete amino acid profile. There is also rice protein powder, though it's not widely available or as cheap (if I recall) as soy protein.

I doubt a couple grams a day will have a guy, with 10 more pounds of newly grown body fat, sitting in front of The View on tv, crying and rubbing his sore breasts, though... But that's probably what you'd get out of all the filler in foods already.

 

[Pirate]

We are constantly used as test dummies without realizing it. Margerine was developed to feed to cows to fatten them up and when they wouldn't eat anything with it in it they decided to provide it as a butter substitute for human consumption. Pigs won't even eat it. But yet it was alright for people until recently.